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boutons_deux
12-12-2012, 10:11 AM
7 Shocking Ways the Military Wastes Our Money

The David Petraeus scandal has shined a light on the luxurious, subsidized lifestyle of the U.S. military's top generals. But so far, what the media has uncovered only scratches the surface of the abuses. Here are eight absurd ways the military wastes our money--and none of them have anything to do with national defense.

1. A whole battalion of generals? The titles “general” or “admiral” sound like they belong to pretty exclusive posts, fit only for the best of the best. This flashy title makes it pretty easy to say, "so what if a few of our military geniuses get the royal treatment--particularly if they are the sole commanders of the most powerful military in human history." The reality, however, is that there nearly 1,000 generals and admirals in the U.S. armed forces, and each has an entourage that would make a Hollywood star jealous.

According to 2010 Pentagon reports, there are 963 generals and admirals (http://www.ciponline.org/research/entry/myths-vs-realities-of-pentagon-spending#_ftn2) [3] in the U.S. armed forces. This number has ballooned by about 100 officers since 9/11 when fighting terror--and polishing the boots of senior military personnel --became Washington’s number-one priority. (In roughly that same time frame, starting in 1998, the Pentagon’s budget also ballooned by more than 50 percent.)

Jack Jacobs, a retired U.S. army colonel and now a military analyst for MSNBC, says the military needs only a third of that number. Many of these generals are “spending time writing plans and defending plans with Congress, and trying to get the money,” he explained. In other words, a large number of these generals are essentially lobbyists for the Pentagon, but they still receive large personal staffs and private jet rides for official paper-pushing military matters.

Dina Rasor, founder of Project on Government Oversight, a watchdog group, explains (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/5920:the-pentagons-biggest-overrun-way-too-many-generals) [4] that this “brass creep” is “fueled by the desire to increase bureaucratic clout or prestige of a particular service, function or region, rather than reflecting the scope and duties of the job itself.”

It’s sort of like how Starbucks titles each of its baristas a “partner” but continues to pay them just over minimum wage (and a caramel macchiato per shift).

As Rasor writes (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/5920:the-pentagons-biggest-overrun-way-too-many-generals) [4], “the three- and four-star ranks have increased twice as fast as one- and two-star general and flag officers, three times as fast as the increase in all officers and almost ten times as fast as the increase in enlisted personnel. If you imagine it visually, the shape of U.S. military personnel has shifted from looking like a pyramid to beginning to look more like a skyscraper.”

But the skyscraper model doesn’t mean that the armed forces are democratizing. In fact, just the opposite; they’re gaming the system to allow more and more officers to deploy the full power of the U.S. military to aid their personal lives--whether their actual work justifies it or not.

2. The generals’ flotillas. Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates appointed Arnold Punaro, a retired major general in the Marines, to head an independent review of the Pentagon’s budget. Here’s the caution he came up with (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/us/27generals.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) [5]: “We don’t want the Department of Defense to become a benefits agency that occasionally kills a terrorist.”

So, just how good are these benefits? For the top brass, not bad at all. According to a Washington Post investigation (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-11-17/world/35505221_1_robert-m-gates-commanders-joint-chiefs) [6], each top commander has his own C-40 jet, complete with beds on board. Many have chefs who deserve their own four-star restaurants. The generals’ personal staff include drivers, security guards, secretaries, and people to shine their shoes and iron their uniforms. When traveling, they can be accompanied by police motorcades that stretch for blocks. When entertaining, string quartets are available at a snap of the fingers.

A New York Times analysis (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/us/27generals.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) [5] showed that simply the staff provided to top generals and admirals can top $1 million--per general. That’s not even including their own salaries--which are relatively modest due to congressional legislation--and the free housing, which has been described (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/5920:the-pentagons-biggest-overrun-way-too-many-generals) [4] as “palatial.” On Capitol Hill, these cadres of assistants are called the generals’ “flotillas.”

In Petraeus’ case, he didn’t want to give up the perks of being a four-star general in the Army, even after he left the armed forces to be director of the CIA. He apparently trained his assistants to pass him water bottles (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pentagon-to-review-perks-for-top-brass-8395457.html) [7] at timed intervals on his now-infamous 6-minute mile runs. He also liked “fresh, sliced pineapple” before going to bed.

3. Scandals. Despite the seemingly limitless perks of being a general, there is a limit to the military’s (taxpayer-funded) generosity. That's led some senior officers to engage in a little creative accounting. This summer the (formerly) four-star general William “Kip” Ward was caught using military money (http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/U-S-Army-general-probed-over-perks-3797303.php) [8] to pay for a Bermuda vacation and using military cars and drivers to take his wife on shopping and spa excursions. He traveled with up to 13 staff members, even on non-work trips, billing the State Department for their hotel and travel costs, as well as his family’s stays at luxury hotels.

In November, in the midst of the Petraeus scandal, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta demoted Ward to a three-star lieutenant general and ordered him to pay back $82,000 of the taxpayers’ misused money. The debt shouldn’t be hard to repay; Ward will receive an annual retirement salary of $208,802.

Panetta may have been tough--sort of--on now three-star general Ward, but he’s displayed a complete refusal to reevaluate the bloated ranks of the military generals. Unlike his predecessor, Robert Gates, who has come out publicly against the increasing number of top-ranking officers and tried to reduce their ranks, Panetta has so far refused (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/15/15166642-panetta-orders-review-of-ethical-standards-amid-allegations-of-misconduct-among-high-level-military-leaders?lite) [9] to review their numbers and has yet to fire a single general or admiral for misconduct. He did, however, order an “ethics training” after the Petraeus scandal.

4. Warped sense of reality. After the Petraeus scandal, the million-dollar question was: Did the general who essentially built the world’s most invasive surveillance apparatus really think he could get away with carrying on a secret affair without anyone knowing? Former Secretary of State Gates has floated (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-15/panetta-asks-for-review-of-officers-ethics-amid-turmoil.html) [10] at least one theory at a press conference in Chicago: “There is something about a sense of entitlement and having great power that skews people’s judgement.”

A handful of retired diplomats and service members have come out in support of Gates’ thesis. Robert J. Callahan, a retired diplomat who served as U.S. ambassador to Nicaragua, wrote an op-ed (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-22/news/ct-perspec-1122-military-20121122_1_military-officers-sons-and-daughters-military-academy) [11] in the Chicago Tribune explaining how the generals’ perks allow them to exist on a plain removed from ordinary people:

“Those with a star are military nobility, no doubt, and those with four are royalty. Flying in luxurious private jets, surrounded by a phalanx of fawning aides who do everything from preparing their meals to pressing their uniform trousers, they are among America's most pampered professionals. Their orders are executed without challenge, their word is fiat. They live in a reality different from the rest of us."


Frank Wuco, a retired U.S. Naval intelligence chief, agrees.

“With the senior guys and the flag officers, this is like the new royalty,” he said on his weekly radio show. “We treat them like kings and princes. These general officers in the military, at a certain point, become untouchable... In many cases, they get their own airplanes, their own helicopters. When they walk into a room, everybody comes to attention. In the case of some of them, people are very afraid to speak up or to disagree. Being separated from real life all the time in that way probably leaves them vulnerable (to lapses in moral judgement)."


Sounds like a phenomenon that’s happening with another pampered sector of society (hint: Wall Street). Given the epic 2008 financial collapse, do we really want to set our security forces on a similar path of power, deception and deep, crisis-creating delusion?

5. Military golf. Of course, generals and admirals aren’t the only ones who get to enjoy some of perks of being in the U.S. armed forces. Although lower ranking service members don’t get private jets and personal chefs, U.S. taxpayers still spend billions of dollars a year to pay for luxuries that are out of reach for the ordinary American.

The Pentagon, for example, runs a staggering 234 golf courses around the world, at a cost that is undisclosed.

According to one retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force, who also just happens to be the senior writer at Travel Golf, the very best military golf course in the U.S. is the Air Force Academy's Eisenhower Blue Course (http://www.worldgolf.com/courses/usa/colorado/coloradosprings/blue-at-eisenhower-golf-course-military.html) [12] in Colorado Springs, CO.

He writes (http://www.travelgolf.com/departments/travelfeatures/ontheroad/military-golf-courses.htm) [13], “This stunning 7,000-plus yard layout shares the same foothills terrain as does the legendary Broadmoor, just 20 minutes to the south in Colorado Springs. Ponderosa pines, pinon and juniper line the fairways with rolling mounds, ponds and almost tame deer and wild turkey.” (The Department of Defense did come under fire a number of decades ago when it was discovered that the toilet seats at this course cost $400 a pop.)

And the number of golf courses is often undercounted, with controversial courses in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and Mosul, Iraq, often left off the lists (http://www.alternet.org/story/82009/the_military-leisure_golf_complex) [14], which makes assessing the total costs difficult.
Yet some courses rack up staggering expenses as they become far more than mere stretches of grass.

According to journalist Nick Turse (http://www.alternet.org/story/82009/the_military-leisure_golf_complex) [14], “The U.S. Army paid $71,614 to the Arizona Golf Resort -- located in sunny Riyadh, Saudi Arabia... The resort actually boasts an entire entertainment complex, complete with a water-slide-enhanced megapool, gym, bowling alley, horse stables, roller hockey rink, arcade, amphitheater, restaurant, and even a cappuccino bar -- not to mention the golf course and a driving range.”

DoD's Sungnam golf course in the Republic of Korea, meanwhile, is reportedly valued at $26 million.

For non-golfers, the military also maintains a ski lodge and resort in the Bavarian Alps (http://www.fpif.org/articles/too_many_overseas_bases) [15], which opened in 2004 and cost $80 million.

6. “The Army goes rolling along!” Vacation resorts aren’t the only explicitly non-defense-related expenditures of the Department of Defense. According to a Washington Post investigation, the DoD also spends $500 million annually on marching bands.

The Navy, the Army, the Air Force and the Marine Corps all maintain their own military bands (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/06/AR2010090603018.html?sid=ST2010090603042) [16], which also produce their own magazines and CDs.

The bands are [pun intended] “an instrument of military PR,” according to Al McCree, a retired Air Force service member who owns Altissimo Recordings, a Nashville record label featuring music of the service bands.

The CDs are--by law--distributed for free, but that doesn’t mean the private sector can’t profit off these marching bands. According to the Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/06/AR2010090603018.html?sid=ST2010090603042) [16], “The service CDs have also created a private, profitable industry made up of companies that obtain the band recordings under the Freedom of Information Act. They then re-press and package them for public sale.”

As if subsidizing the industry of multibillion-dollar arms dealers weren’t enough, the record industry is apparently also leeching off the taxpayer-funded military spending.

7. The Pentagon-to-Lockheed pipeline. While the exorbitant costs of private planes and hundreds of golf courses may seem bad enough, the most costly problem with the entitlement-culture of the military happens after generals retire. Since they’re so used to the luxurious lifestyle, the vast majority of pension-reaping high-ranking officers head into the private defense industry.

According to William Hartung, a defense analyst at the Center for International Policy in Washington DC, about 70 percent of recently retired three- and four-star generals went straight to work for industry giants like Lockheed Martin.
“If you [I]don’t go into industry at this point you are the exception,” Hartung said.

This type of government-to-industry pipeline, which he said was comparable to the odious Wall Street-to-Washington revolving door, drives up the prices of weapons and prevents effective oversight of weapon manufacturing companies--all of which ends up costing taxpayers more and more each year.

“I think the overspending on the generals and all their perks is bad enough, but the revolving door and the ability of these people to cut industry a break in exchange for high salaries costs more in the long run,” said Hartung. “This can affect the price of weapons and the whole structure of how we oversee companies. It’s harder to calculate, but certainly in the billions, compared to millions spent on staff per general.”

http://www.alternet.org/economy/8-absurd-ways-military-wastes-our-money

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 10:21 AM
As fiscally responsible as all the conservatives claim to be on this site, none of them have a problem with how big of a role military spending has played in the deficit, and none of them have a problem with rampant military spending going forward.

boutons_deux
12-12-2012, 10:39 AM
Not that Repugs/VWRC/conservatives really give a shit about the deficit, but they don't consider the military to part of the hated govt, since so many of them benefit from the MIC's salaries, corruption, dividends, stocks, lobbying, etc.

MIC is just another wealth-transfer scam.

Sportcamper
12-12-2012, 10:48 AM
As fiscally responsible as all the conservatives claim to be on this site, none of them have a problem with how big of a role military spending has played in the deficit, and none of them have a problem with rampant military spending going forward.

That’s the beauty of being a government worker…You play on the internet all day on the tax payers dime and cuss out anyone in the private sector who does not want to support you or your ridiculous non funded pension…I have several friends who have left the private sector and are now working cushy government jobs and they are living large…OT, holiday pay, sick days pay, non funded pensions, guaranteed wage scale increase every year…

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 10:51 AM
That’s the beauty of being a government worker…You play on the internet all day on the tax payers dime and cuss out anyone in the private sector who does not want to support you or your ridiculous non funded pension…I have several friends who have left the private sector and are now working cushy government jobs and they are living large…OT, holiday pay, sick days pay, non funded pensions, guaranteed wage scale increase every year…

neat......I guess.

I'll just chalk you up as another Republican who goes on a random tangent in response to the topic of ridiculous military spending.

God bless!

DarrinS
12-12-2012, 10:51 AM
http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/charts/2012/defense-entitlement-spending-680.jpg

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 10:53 AM
Look at every other first world country and defense spending is even smaller compared to "entitlement" spending. That graph is totally meaningless.

Sportcamper
12-12-2012, 11:03 AM
neat......I guess.

I'll just chalk you up as another Republican who goes on a random tangent in response to the topic of ridiculous military spending.

You work for the government don't you? :rollin

DarrinS
12-12-2012, 11:04 AM
Look at every other first world country and defense spending is even smaller compared to "entitlement" spending. That graph is totally meaningless.


:rolleyes

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 11:04 AM
:rolleyes

great argument.

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 11:05 AM
You work for the government don't you? :rollin

:lmao no argument so you go with a wild accusation

No, I don't work for the government. Never have, for that matter.

DarrinS
12-12-2012, 11:07 AM
great argument.

As was yours. Do you really want to bring the Euros into the discussion? Yes, they spend much less on defense (they don't have to -- they have us) and spend a lot more on entitlements. How's that working out for them?

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 11:11 AM
As was yours. Do you really want to bring the Euros into the discussion? Yes, they spend much less on defense (they don't have to -- they have us) and spend a lot more on entitlements. How's that working out for them?

It's working out much better for Canada and Germany than our rampant military spending works for us.

That "they don't have to, they have us!" argument works really well btw. America spends hundreds of billions to station troops in Europe so Germany can spend its money elsewhere while we supply them with defense. Sounds like a great idea.

clambake
12-12-2012, 11:18 AM
yes. europe and israel are quite the entitlement states.

DarrinS
12-12-2012, 11:26 AM
yes. europe and israel are quite the entitlement states.

Europe is, undoubtedly.

clambake
12-12-2012, 11:28 AM
so is israel.

you just can't bring yourself to say it.

boutons_deux
12-12-2012, 11:39 AM
Medicare is of course captive of the greedy, for-profit health care vampire-squid.

ACA controls Medicare/Medicaid by reducing payments to providers and chasing fraud

REpugs control Medicare/Medicate by reducing care to Human-Americans while protecting the income of the providers.

DarrinS
12-12-2012, 11:46 AM
so is israel.

you just can't bring yourself to say it.

mmmmkay

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_net_soc_exp_of_gdp-economy-net-social-expenditure-gdp

clambake
12-12-2012, 11:54 AM
went right over your head.

Drachen
12-12-2012, 12:03 PM
mmmmkay

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_net_soc_exp_of_gdp-economy-net-social-expenditure-gdp

mmmmmmkay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations

DarrinS
12-12-2012, 12:39 PM
mmmmmmkay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations


And????

Drachen
12-12-2012, 12:45 PM
and that is the entitlement that I believe clambake was referring to ($3B dollar expenditure every year). I am not in clambake's head though, so I am just making a guess here.

clambake
12-12-2012, 01:30 PM
good guess

TDMVPDPOY
12-12-2012, 01:33 PM
is military personal income tax free?

Wild Cobra
12-12-2012, 04:13 PM
Look at every other first world country and defense spending is even smaller compared to "entitlement" spending. That graph is totally meaningless.
Do other nations ask them for military help?

diego
12-12-2012, 06:29 PM
Europe is, undoubtedly.

Israel is too, almost every Israeli I've ever met (all outside of israel) left in part because they were sick of paying taxes to support the haredim, whose population is growing fast

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 06:33 PM
Do other nations ask them for military help?
:lmao so if other nations ask us for entitlement military help, that's an excuse for rampant military spending that bankrupts the country? Holy hell that's some backwards logic.

"Sorry folks, we know you've paid taxes your entire life and would rather see tax dollars go toward paying off terrorists or towards domestic aid for other Americans, but Netanyahu told us we need to invade Iran, so right now that's where your tax dollars are going."

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 06:38 PM
I read a little over a year that the US has 662 foreign military bases in 30+ countries, and I'm guessing that number has barely changed or gone up. There's no logical reason why a country 16 trillion dollars in debt has so many foreign military bases in so many countries, a lot of which in countries perfectly capable of defending themselves. Even countries not capable of defending themselves shouldn't be getting free military personnel from us when we're going bankrupt.

TeyshaBlue
12-12-2012, 06:42 PM
Look at every other first world country and defense spending is even smaller compared to "entitlement" spending. That graph is totally meaningless.

Comparisons to "other" first world countries are fairly meaningless, tbh. Any other Americas out there? Not really.

TeyshaBlue
12-12-2012, 06:43 PM
I read a little over a year that the US has 662 foreign military bases in 30+ countries, and I'm guessing that number has barely changed or gone up. There's no logical reason why a country 16 trillion dollars in debt has so many foreign military bases in so many countries, a lot of which in countries perfectly capable of defending themselves. Even countries not capable of defending themselves shouldn't be getting free military personnel from us when we're going bankrupt.

Alot of truth in this.

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-12-2012, 06:52 PM
Comparisons to "other" first world countries are fairly meaningless, tbh. Any other Americas out there? Not really.
Right, most other 1st world countries would tell Netanyahu to shove it up his ass if he asked them to support Israel's conflict with the rest of the middle east.

LnGrrrR
12-12-2012, 07:38 PM
Some comments:

2) I don't know about "palatial" housing. Certainly, not on Hickam, though it is quite large. (Roughly four/five bedroom houses for the 3 and 4 stars; we have comm that we install there.)

3) I'm amazed that Gen Ward got demoted in the first place. You're pretty much invulnerable once you put on the 3rd star... enlisted members screw up and lose stripes and get kicked out, officer leaders do the same and are asked politely to retire.

4) The only personal notice I've taken of this is when it comes to comm: senior officers want things yesterday, and if it means breaking a few DISA rules to do so, well too bad for network security.

5) And as far as the golf courses go, most of them are for morale, and most are supplemented by non-funded programs. (Ie, they have to pay their way using sales at the pro shop, fees, etc etc.) Taxpayers also pay for movie theatres (both deployed and home), pools and various other quality-of-life establishhments on base. (Again, most of these are supplemented. I can't play golf for free on most courses.)

The Bavarian Alps is a military-only resort... and I hope to take advantage of it one day. :lol

6) They're for morale! Actually, in many cases, the bands perform at various special functions, and also travel to deployed areas. I'm not sure that hiring out bands would be cheaper than taxpayer dollars. I guess you could argue something like, "The military shouldn't have bands or play music!" but that's never going to happen. It's part of the tradition of military service, going way back to... well, at least a few hundred years...

7) Definitely happens a ton. I actually got to attend the Air and Space Conference this year (our squadron received a Citation of Honor and I was chosen to help represent, woot), and pretty much every booth that you stop at has retired Cols/Gens talking about their products.

LnGrrrR
12-12-2012, 07:40 PM
is military personal income tax free?

Yes and no. Our base pay isn't tax free, but some of our allowances (housing, food, etc) are, because they change from location to location. Also, many overseas deployed locations are tax-free.

LnGrrrR
12-12-2012, 07:44 PM
I read a little over a year that the US has 662 foreign military bases in 30+ countries, and I'm guessing that number has barely changed or gone up. There's no logical reason why a country 16 trillion dollars in debt has so many foreign military bases in so many countries, a lot of which in countries perfectly capable of defending themselves. Even countries not capable of defending themselves shouldn't be getting free military personnel from us when we're going bankrupt.

A lot of bases actually closed down or were merged with other bases due to the BRAC study (Base Realignment and Closure)... for instance, Hickam AFB and Pearl Harbor NS are now combined into Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam.

That said, there's a ton of "Camp X" or "Forward Operation Station Y" that have sprouted up overseas due to the wars. I would love to see a lot of those go away. I realize we'd lose some of our under-30-mins-or-your-predator-missile-is-free ability, but I'd be willing to sacrifice that ability.

Leadership certainly wouldn't.

ElNono
12-13-2012, 04:15 AM
DoK is soft on terror.... there, I said it!

ElNono
12-13-2012, 04:18 AM
A lot of bases actually closed down or were merged with other bases due to the BRAC study (Base Realignment and Closure)... for instance, Hickam AFB and Pearl Harbor NS are now combined into Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam.

That said, there's a ton of "Camp X" or "Forward Operation Station Y" that have sprouted up overseas due to the wars. I would love to see a lot of those go away. I realize we'd lose some of our under-30-mins-or-your-predator-missile-is-free ability, but I'd be willing to sacrifice that ability.

Leadership certainly wouldn't.

Fort Monmouth was basically closed here last year, but nothing has been done with it. It actually been driving me kinda crazy to drive through hundreds of fenced, empty homes for years now. Especially after Sandy, and so many people without shelter or anything. And the grass keeps getting cut, etc, so there's money still being dumped there where nobody is living and nothing is happening with it.

Wild Cobra
12-13-2012, 04:27 AM
Yes and no. Our base pay isn't tax free, but some of our allowances (housing, food, etc) are, because they change from location to location. Also, many overseas deployed locations are tax-free.
True, but by the time you file if you have a family, a soldiers federal tax liability is usually zero.

spursncowboys
12-15-2012, 01:02 AM
As fiscally responsible as all the conservatives claim to be on this site, none of them have a problem with how big of a role military spending has played in the deficit, and none of them have a problem with rampant military spending going forward.
Defense=In the Constitution
Social Security= Not
Medicaid= Not
Medicare= Not

spursncowboys
12-15-2012, 01:09 AM
A lot of bases actually closed down or were merged with other bases due to the BRAC study (Base Realignment and Closure)... for instance, Hickam AFB and Pearl Harbor NS are now combined into Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam.

That said, there's a ton of "Camp X" or "Forward Operation Station Y" that have sprouted up overseas due to the wars. I would love to see a lot of those go away. I realize we'd lose some of our under-30-mins-or-your-predator-missile-is-free ability, but I'd be willing to sacrifice that ability.

Leadership certainly wouldn't.
What sucks is us at the lower end are always the ones who get hurt from Def cuts. Gen will still get their five col, 5 maj, 5 capt, twenty lt's, chefs, chauffeurs, maids, etc. Pentegon will still get their sweep heart deals for buying POS's like the MATV and not Dragonskin. Meanwhile we lose man power, pay raises, promotion opportunities, equipment, quality healthcare, etc.

ElNono
12-15-2012, 01:23 AM
Defense=In the Constitution
Social Security= Not
Medicaid= Not
Medicare= Not

Debatable, at the very least... to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;

And while I would agree that 'welfare' in that context is to mean 'well-being' and not welfare as we know it today, all those programs you list would fall within the 'well-being' category.

Plus the point isn't that Defense spending should stop, but how big it needs to be. There's no mention of any of that in Article 1, Section 8.

ElNono
12-15-2012, 01:26 AM
What sucks is us at the lower end are always the ones who get hurt from Def cuts. Gen will still get their five col, 5 maj, 5 capt, twenty lt's, chefs, chauffeurs, maids, etc. Pentegon will still get their sweep heart deals for buying POS's like the MATV and not Dragonskin. Meanwhile we lose man power, pay raises, promotion opportunities, equipment, quality healthcare, etc.

Time to get a job in the private sector.... right?

baseline bum
12-15-2012, 01:29 AM
I like the part in the constitution that says we have to subsidize Europe's social democracies with all our military spending and overseas bases.

:cry Europe's freedom ain't free :cry

Wild Cobra
12-15-2012, 01:41 AM
Debatable, at the very least... to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;

And while I would agree that 'welfare' in that context is to mean 'well-being' and not welfare as we know it today, all those programs you list would fall within the 'well-being' category.

Plus the point isn't that Defense spending should stop, but how big it needs to be. There's no mention of any of that in Article 1, Section 8.
Full paragraph:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
I agree that is a provision in that part. However, none of the following passages come close to the acceptance of welfare as it has become today. A clear argument can be made that enabling other people not to produce for themselves is counterproductive to the welfare of this nation.

baseline bum
12-15-2012, 01:50 AM
Full paragraph:

I agree that is a provision in that part. However, none of the following passages come close to the acceptance of welfare as it has become today. A clear argument can be made that enabling other people not to produce for themselves is counterproductive to the welfare of this nation.

That passage talks about defence, not constantly getting into offensive wars all over the globe.

ElNono
12-15-2012, 01:57 AM
I agree that is a provision in that part. However, none of the following passages come close to the acceptance of welfare as it has become today

Welfare as we know it today comes in many ways, shapes and forms. At least when it comes to programs like Medicare or Social Security, there's a clear financing path with them (money is taken every month from the paychecks). Now I would agree that what's taken might not be enough to make the programs solvent, and that's something that will need to be addressed, but they're already ahead of the game of other types of government welfare: tax rebates, tax holidays, government subsidies, etc.


A clear argument can be made that enabling other people not to produce for themselves is counterproductive to the welfare of this nation.

If it's so clear, I'm sure you could make it. Factually speaking, 92% of people work in the country. Could be better, but that's not that much different than 30 years ago.

Plus programs like Medicare and Social Security (and to an extent Medicaid) actually target people that are at a certain age where they either can't produce anymore or their production is greatly diminished. That's why I personally think they fall well within the 'well-being' portion.

spursncowboys
12-15-2012, 02:28 AM
Time to get a job in the private sector.... right?
Yep

spursncowboys
12-15-2012, 02:33 AM
Debatable, at the very least... to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;

And while I would agree that 'welfare' in that context is to mean 'well-being' and not welfare as we know it today, all those programs you list would fall within the 'well-being' category.

Plus the point isn't that Defense spending should stop, but how big it needs to be. There's no mention of any of that in Article 1, Section 8.
That's a really good point but I just don't think welfare was in their minds when they were writing the constitution.

I do agree that there is alot of bs in the defense that can go away, it just never does. Robert Gates tried for four years to cut defense in a more responsible way. He wanted to start at the top and cut out all Joints Chief's fluff, to start.

ElNono
12-15-2012, 02:36 AM
That's a really good point but I just don't think welfare was in their minds when they were writing the constitution.

I do agree that there is alot of bs in the defense that can go away, it just never does. Robert Gates tried for four years to cut defense in a more responsible way. He wanted to start at the top and cut out all Joints Chief's fluff, to start.

Apparently, at the very least, 'well being' was... as vague as it might be.

It's seemingly difficult to make cuts anywhere. I don't think anybody is arguing cuts should be exclusive to Defense spending. But if politicos ever get around to actually use the trimmer in any sensible way, defense shouldn't be off the table.

LnGrrrR
12-15-2012, 04:18 AM
I agree that is a provision in that part. However, none of the following passages come close to the acceptance of welfare as it has become today. A clear argument can be made that enabling other people not to produce for themselves is counterproductive to the welfare of this nation.

Whats funny is that I see our large military as enabling in its own way. We enable other countries by protecting them instead of making them pay for a larger military.

Wild Cobra
12-15-2012, 04:25 AM
Whats funny is that I see our large military as enabling in its own way. We enable other countries by protecting them instead of making them pay for a larger military.
I agree with you, but wouldn't you rather it be us that is the "alpha country?"

boutons_deux
12-15-2012, 10:19 AM
amazing fantasy!

"countries by protecting them"

which countries?

protecting them from what? SPECIFICALLY WHAT?

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-15-2012, 11:41 AM
Defense=In the Constitution
Social Security= Not
Medicaid= Not
Medicare= Not
I don't dispute this, and it ain't like I'm one of those people who thinks the US should disband its standing army completely and have a volunteer militi:lol. Those people are retarded, it's clear the US needs a standing army and a strong one for that matter. It doesn't however need to have 600+ overseas bases in idk how many different countries. We don't need to be spending almost as much as every other country combined on defense.

If defense cuts only hit the people at the bottom that doesn't mean we shouldn't have defense cuts, it means the president needs to intervene and make sure that changes. I see your point there tho, because the chances of Obama actually doing anything to change the status quo there are slim to none.

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-15-2012, 11:41 AM
I like the part in the constitution that says we have to subsidize Europe's social democracies with all our military spending and overseas bases.

:cry Europe's freedom ain't free :cry
:lmao

LnGrrrR
12-15-2012, 03:46 PM
I agree with you, but wouldn't you rather it be us that is the "alpha country?"

Even if we spent billions less on military spending we would still be the alpha country. We would just be slightly less alpha. Don't you agree that other countries should take up the slack of defending themselves? It's the same logic you use saying that people on welfare have no motivation to work, right?

Wild Cobra
12-15-2012, 05:18 PM
Even if we spent billions less on military spending we would still be the alpha country. We would just be slightly less alpha. Don't you agree that other countries should take up the slack of defending themselves? It's the same logic you use saying that people on welfare have no motivation to work, right?
I agree we have places we can make serious cuts. The problem is, the waste in in congressional districts where the incumbent keeps buying votes.

spursncowboys
12-15-2012, 08:19 PM
I don't dispute this, and it ain't like I'm one of those people who thinks the US should disband its standing army completely and have a volunteer militi:lol. Those people are retarded, it's clear the US needs a standing army and a strong one for that matter. It doesn't however need to have 600+ overseas bases in idk how many different countries. We don't need to be spending almost as much as every other country combined on defense.

If defense cuts only hit the people at the bottom that doesn't mean we shouldn't have defense cuts, it means the president needs to intervene and make sure that changes. I see your point there tho, because the chances of Obama actually doing anything to change the status quo there are slim to none.
So you are saying stop policing the world tomorrow? Or ASAP? Are you worried about the power vaccuum that that will create?

For instance, if our Navy is not patrolling every major world waterway, another one will. If "free" movement for trade is stopped, what then?

spursncowboys
12-15-2012, 08:21 PM
Even if we spent billions less on military spending we would still be the alpha country. We would just be slightly less alpha. Don't you agree that other countries should take up the slack of defending themselves? It's the same logic you use saying that people on welfare have no motivation to work, right?
I think, we could still maintain our foreign policy. Our only problem is trying to nation-build. Nine years ago, we could have pulled all the ground forces out and maintained the Naval Aircraft carriers.

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-15-2012, 08:31 PM
So you are saying stop policing the world tomorrow? Or ASAP? Are you worried about the power vaccuum that that will create?

For instance, if our Navy is not patrolling every major world waterway, another one will. If "free" movement for trade is stopped, what then?
Now you're coming up with strawman arguments and there's no point in addressing them.

ElNono
12-16-2012, 12:11 AM
For instance, if our Navy is not patrolling every major world waterway, another one will. If "free" movement for trade is stopped, what then?

Send a drone and show them who's boss. We don't need a base everywhere, period.

boutons_deux
12-16-2012, 05:32 AM
"If "free" movement for trade is stopped"

which country has the naval power to stop ocean shipping?

TDMVPDPOY
12-16-2012, 10:22 AM
not paying these clowns, they all go into the private sector to the highest bidder...

baseline bum
12-16-2012, 08:30 PM
SnC brought up a good point: we get to subsidize other nations' exports with our woldwide navy.

spursncowboys
12-17-2012, 12:10 AM
Now you're coming up with strawman arguments and there's no point in addressing them.
I really wasn't. It's a real question. There is no one in the world saying that America giving up our global power, would lead to a power vaccuum. I was just trying to understand a general time frame. Like are you say we pull out month by month, year by year, decade by decade?

spursncowboys
12-17-2012, 12:12 AM
Send a drone and show them who's boss. We don't need a base everywhere, period.
As of right now, publicly we don't have drones that can fly very far (gas), so we need somewhere to launch and land.

ElNono
12-17-2012, 12:46 AM
As of right now, publicly we don't have drones that can fly very far (gas), so we need somewhere to launch and land.

We have a drone base in the fucking Seychelles... that's far enough.

Wild Cobra
12-17-2012, 04:19 AM
We have a drone base in the fucking Seychelles... that's far enough.
Nice strategic location.

ElNono
12-17-2012, 04:22 AM
Nice strategic location.

Strategic for what? Keep playing world police?

DUNCANownsKOBE
12-17-2012, 09:20 AM
I really wasn't. It's a real question. There is no one in the world saying that America giving up our global power, would lead to a power vaccuum. I was just trying to understand a general time frame. Like are you say we pull out month by month, year by year, decade by decade?

I think we can start with some obvious cutbacks. As a specific example, troops stationed in Germany and Japan. They've been there since WWII and I think it's safe to say we don't have to worry about Germany and Japan forming an axis of powers again. I use those two as a specific example because it puts us at an economic disadvantage to be subsidizing two economies we're in competition with. It puts our economy at a competitive disadvantage to be subsidizing the defense of other modern world powers.

As far as the power vacuum, I don't see it being a major issue. As I said, we still should have one of the strongest militaries in the world, just not the excessively strong military that accounts for 45% of the world's total defense spending. We could still keep a naval presence where our key trade routes are and we'd still have the power to turn most countries into a parking lot if they took military cutbacks as an invitation to start fucking with us.