Is Ginobili a role player?..

[Malik Hairston]

Do you still consider Manu Ginobili to be an All-Star caliber player that the Spurs rely on for offense, or is he now considered a role player that will produce at an All-Star level on an infrequent basis?..

[DAF86]

Since he is still getting his number called I say no but I'm getting to the point where I think he should be.

[Sean Cagney]

He is a stupid TO machine that is for sure, each good play he does he does some stupid ass wreckless pass into a crowd for the front row. How the hell can you not control the ball at all Ginobili? I love Gino and he is a legend in SA, but his passes get worse by the year.

[hater]

a 12 million dollar role player

[Otaku]

He's the only one passing the ball tonight for the Spurs.

[hater]

He's the only one passing the ball tonight for the Spurs.

the guy in the 2nd row doesn't play for the Spurs

[DMC]

Manu decides on a play and makes the pass regardless of what changed between when he decided and when he passes. He will fling the ball right into the defender, into the audience, damn near anywhere because he thinks of what he's going to do ahead of time and does it regardless. When it works out it looks like something from the Globetrotters. When it doesn't, it looks like something from the Globetrotters.

[hater]

he's as stubborn as Kobe. and both will retire in misery at the end of their days

[superjames1992]

You all are pathetic.

12 points on seven field goal attempts is very good. 4/7 FG. Six rebounds, seven assists, and four turnovers (too high).

Six rebounds and seven assists is huge (especially considering our supposed PG Tony Parker only put up five assists). Manu does so much more than score points.

[Otaku]

He has 7 assists and 4 turnovers, SAME as Parker btw. Also got 6 boards and shot more than 50%.

Today the Spurs lost because of Green and neal, a combined 11 points with 4/16 FG...

[spectator]

he's a role player on a 5th game in 7 nights

[superjames1992]

He has 7 assists and 4 turnovers, SAME as Parker btw. Also got 6 boards and shot more than 50%.

Today the Spurs lost because of Green and neal, a combined 11 points with 4/16 FG...
The haters just hate. They use no logic.

Neal sucked ass so much tonight, too. Totally hero balled it up for the second night in a row and nearly came up blank.

[timvp]

It was obvious his back was stiff tonight. When he's right, Ginobili is still damn good. Not in his prime but still can put up All-Star level play on a per-minute basis, IMO.

[Ghjkll]

Well, these days Neal takes more shots than Manu. He is only shooting the ball less than ten times per game this season so far. Give him 15 shots and he will produce numbers close to his 17-20 points outings. There is no magic here. Rebounds, assists and steals are up from last year...What do you expect from a 35 years old SG? What player scores 20, 25 or 30 points in 9 shots? Please...In the Olympics, Manu averaged 19.1 poits per game. And that was 5 months ago. Overreaction thread.

[Otaku]

It was obvious his back was stiff tonight. When he's right, Ginobili is still damn good. Not in his prime but still can put up All-Star level play on a per-minute basis, IMO.

Besides it's just December, and HE KNOWS IT. After all these years it's pointless for him to waste all the energy in the regular season and come drained to the POs.

[superjames1992]

Well, these days Neal takes more shots than Manu. He is only shooting the ball less than ten times per game this season so far. Give him 15 shots and he will produce numbers close to his 17-20 points outings. There is no magic here. Rebounds, assists and steals are up from last year...What do you expect from a 35 years old SG? What player scores 20, 25 or 30 points in 9 shots? Please...In the Olympics, Manu averaged 19.1 poits per game. And that was 5 months ago. Overreaction thread.
Yep, if Manu wanted to hero ball it up like some others on this team, he could easily put up 16-20 PPG. And he will put up more shots come playoffs time, anyways, I'm sure.

Scoring 12 points on only seven shots is pretty good. I don't know why people are blind and can't see that. He is an efficient scorer.

[El Contusion II]

Neal and Green were awful. We lost because they didn't show up.

[Malik Hairston]

How is it an overreaction thread?..

I didn't make a statement in the OP and it's a fair question..

[hater]

It was obvious his back was stiff tonight. When he's right, Ginobili is still damn good. Not in his prime but still can put up All-Star level play on a per-minute basis, IMO.

:lmao and Kobe was having back spams too today

how convenient

[TheSkeptic]

He has 7 assists and 4 turnovers, SAME as Parker btw. Also got 6 boards and shot more than 50%.

Today the Spurs lost because of Green and neal, a combined 11 points with 4/16 FG...

Blair and Diaw not getting any love?

[superjames1992]

I honestly don't think any Spurs player can really escape blame for tonight's loss aside from maybe Stiffler.

[ElNono]

Spurs certainly still rely on him for offense, but he's been on the decline for a few seasons now... he obviously isn't the penetrator he used to be and has come to rely on his shot more...

His PER always been atop the league, but this season it has taken a toll... could be his decline is accelerating..

[superjames1992]

Spurs certainly still rely on him for offense, but he's been on the decline for a few seasons now... he obviously isn't the penetrator he used to be and has come to rely on his shot more...

His PER always been atop the league, but this season it has taken a toll... could be his decline is accelerating..
Not including tonight's game, his PER is still at 18.15, which is 41st in the West. His PER has steadily been increasing and he's shot 46% from the field and 45% from downtown in recent games. There is no reason to despair, even if he has dropped off a bit.

Last season he finished with a PER of 24.18, fourth in the West.

The season is still young, so he may be alright. We'll see. :)

[timvp]

Spurs certainly still rely on him for offense, but he's been on the decline for a few seasons now... he obviously isn't the penetrator he used to be and has come to rely on his shot more...

His PER always been atop the league, but this season it has taken a toll... could be his decline is accelerating..

ElNono jumping off the bandwagon when the going gets tough. :td

[HI-FI]

Spurs certainly still rely on him for offense, but he's been on the decline for a few seasons now... he obviously isn't the penetrator he used to be and has come to rely on his shot more...

His PER always been atop the league, but this season it has taken a toll... could be his decline is accelerating..
El Nono with the sobering goods.

Its sad to see him on the decline. I wonder if his heart is still in it. Manu is the ultimate competitor, but his offseason comments seem kind of sad, like he's reaching the end. I'm sure he'll still have some great moments this season, but if he wants to play next season, he needs to take a serious paycut. His turnovers seem more pronounced since he isn't penetrating like he once did.

[superjames1992]

The turnover talk doesn't make a lot of sense.

Manu is averaging 2.1 turnovers per game this year. He averaged 1.9 last year. He is averaging less turnovers per game this year than in 2005, 2008, and 2011 and the same as in 2004, 2007, and 2010. Granted, he is also playing slightly less minutes, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. He's always been a bit of a high turnover player. That's just the nature of the beast.

[DPG21920]

What an odd thread..

[TDMVPDPOY]

9 out of 10 plays are usually turnovers, but everytime manu pulls a connected play the other 9 plays are forgotten...lmao CoM

[Brunodf]

Manu will be fine, he just needs to get his rhythm back, he looked amazing in the Olympics, people don't get that old in 3 months

[superjames1992]

9 out of 10 plays are usually turnovers, but everytime manu pulls a connected play the other 9 plays are forgotten...lmao CoM
Right, his 2.2/1 assist/turnover ratio sure makes this case.

[Sean Cagney]

the guy in the 2nd row doesn't play for the Spurs

LOL, I had ot laugh at this one here, truth.

[raybies]

Turnovers was the reason for the loss not to mention the lack o ball movement. I saw quite a few open looks for some of our shooters notably green getting passed up for a good shot and not great. I see a loss of trust. It was a sad game to watch. Like a loss of identity. We really are starting to miss Jack and lawgiver.

[SenorSpur]

Because of the decline in his athleticism, Manu IS now a role player. As much as he can still conjure up some thrilling moments, his poor decision-making and costly turnovers drive me crazy - especially when he's tired.

[ElNono]

Been saying it since 2010...


Manu's decline was inevitable as much as Tim's decline is inevitable. That's exactly why we traded for RJ and Dice. To me, Tony's decline this season was the unexpected factor. But even then, you really can't attribute the sharp decline on defense on that alone, IMO.

Repeated it in 2011...


He's on the decline... he just has a bigger role team-wise...

Not sure why people are surprised now, or saying "I'm jumping off the bandwagon" :rolleyes

Manu is still a useful player for this team or any team. But he's been on the decline for a while now... hopefully he's just banged up a bit and this is not the wheels falling off completely.

[freetiago]

Ginobili is 35
not every player in a spur uniform will play like it was 05 again
ginobili is losing his passion for the game and hes broken literally every part of his body in his relatively short career
he cant get to the rim anymore and his shot is inconsistent
hes not an all-star caliber player now and theres no shame in not being a roleplayer at 35 years old

[ElNono]

I would disagree that "he's losing his passion for the game"... he looks pretty pissed everytime he fucks up, which happen to be more often during some of these stretches...

[HI-FI]

Ginobili is 35
not every player in a spur uniform will play like it was 05 again
ginobili is losing his passion for the game and hes broken literally every part of his body in his relatively short career
he cant get to the rim anymore and his shot is inconsistent
hes not an all-star caliber player now and theres no shame in not being a roleplayer at 35 years old

this is the part that concerns me the most. When he said he isn't sure if he'll resign, or how he doesn't want his kids becoming professional basketball players, I start to think it's coming to an end.

[timvp]

Been saying it since 2010...



Repeated it in 2011...



Not sure why people are surprised now, or saying "I'm jumping off the bandwagon" :rolleyes

Manu is still a useful player for this team or any team. But he's been on the decline for a while now... hopefully he's just banged up a bit and this is not the wheels falling off completely.

Obviously he's been in decline. Any player who is 35 has been in a decline for a couple years. That's simple math, tbh.

But I wouldn't expect ElNono to have such a defeatist tone when speaking of Ginobili. He's not going to turn into 2005 Ginobili obviously but I see no reason why he can't reach a very good middle ground of something like 16, 6 and 4 with a PER north of 20.

[superjames1992]

I have pretty much seen zero evidence that Manu is losing his passion for the game.

[ElNono]

Obviously he's been in decline. Any player who is 35 has been in a decline for a couple years. That's simple math, tbh.

But I wouldn't expect ElNono to have such a defeatist tone when speaking of Ginobili. He's not going to turn into 2005 Ginobili obviously but I see no reason why he can't reach a very good middle ground of something like 16, 6 and 4 with a PER north of 20.

Maybe my post came across the wrong way. I still think Manu can play great here and there, but All Star level? He's been a role player for a while. Last playoffs was a great example in every aspect.

He didn't have great games in the first two series, and he really didn't need to, but he showed up against OKC with a couple of great games. He's going to have great games here and there, but it's going to be difficult to find night in, night out supermanu games. He's still a guy that will make key plays, and that has such basketball IQ that I would never want him to play for another team, no matter how old.

[superjames1992]

Well, yeah, he's definitely not an NBA All-Star anymore, but I don't know if I'd say he's a role player, either. I think he's somewhere in between. Lumping him in with the Danny Greens and the Gary Neals of the world is not too accurate, IMO, though he isn't (and never has been) quite in Tim Duncan's company, either.

[rascal]

The Spurs will be over paying Manu from here on out for what he will bring to the team.

[JRHernandez88]

He's getting old and right now he's definitely not doing what were used to but he'll be there when THOSE MOMENTS come. He still gots that IT factor that sparks us when we need it. He's sloppy right now tho, no doubt about it.

[letmk]

I don't know the answer to the fact. But I wish he thinks he is, thus it can actually add his value to the team with him playing more within the system and his capability.

[Johnsyounger]

@JRHernandez88 Thats it exactly. He does things that don't show up in the box score. And he has THOSE MOMENTS. He can go 1/8 and knock down a 3 to win.

[letmk]

I don't know the answer to the fact. But I wish he thinks he is, thus it can actually add his value to the team with him playing more within the system and his capability.

Edit: A few caveats:

Thinking oneself as a role player does not mean less responsibility at all. It's just that he cannot be the focal point in offense whenever he is on the court like before. It needs to be Tony and Tim.

Unlike RJ type of player, we never need to worry about Manu's competitive will. Instead, the worry is that he still thinks he is his old-self and tries to do much and gets frustrated for not being able to do that. By tuning down the expectation a little bit, he can do more actually.

This only applies to Manu as we can always trust he will fight to the end no matter what. And this is the reason why he is my favorite player. But for players like Green/Leonard, you might want to encourage them to "think" more of themselves.

[ALVAREZ6]

lol who gives a shit, why are people so caught up on meaningless classifications? He's clearly an inconsistent, way past prime player who some nights looks like a scrub and others looks like an all-star. Why are you asking this question, do you not watch the Spurs? The minutes are even really inconsistent, the goal is to be in decent shape come playoff time, that's it.





Is Diaw a role player?
Is Dejuan Blair a barely legitimate player, or an insignificant role player?
Is Tim Duncan in his mid 30s?
Is Danny Green a true starter, or is it because he's on the Spurs? Would he start on the Atlanta Hawks? What about the Celtics?
Will Nando be a starter in his 30s, a limited role player, or back in Europe?????????
Is Gary Neal having a worse year than 2 seasons ago?
Kawhi Leonard's cock: over/under 8.5 inches?


Please respond to the above everyone, I' respect your opinions on these important issues.

[letmk]

lol who gives a shit, why are people so caught up on meaningless classifications? He's clearly an inconsistent, way past prime player who some nights looks like a scrub and others looks like an all-star. Why are you asking this question, do you not watch the Spurs? The minutes are even really inconsistent, the goal is to be in decent shape come playoff time, that's it.





Is Diaw a role player?
Is Dejuan Blair a barely legitimate player, or an insignificant role player?
Is Tim Duncan in his mid 30s?
Is Danny Green a true starter, or is it because he's on the Spurs? Would he start on the Atlanta Hawks? What about the Celtics?
Will Nando be a starter in his 30s, a limited role player, or back in Europe?????????
Is Gary Neal having a worse year than 2 seasons ago?
Kawhi Leonard's cock: over/under 8.5 inches?


Please respond to the above everyone, I' respect your opinions on these important issues.

I don't know what others in ST are thinking, but my point is that Pop needs to see that Manu is not an all-star any more. Pardon me for using Kidd analogy again. Kidd is very important to what Knicks do, one of the biggest reasons they are the no.1 team in the East right now. But he and the Knicks coaches don't expect him to be in leading role in offense as in his old-days.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Honestly, I was just thinking this as well. Manu really hasn't been Manu for a while now. I don't bury him just yet, he missed virtually all of last year, and this season is still young. I want to believe he can start playing at a higher level than seen so far. He will never be the guy from 3 years ago or so. But I would still like to believe he has some magic left. Time will tell.

[cd021]

Do you still consider Manu Ginobili to be an All-Star caliber player that the Spurs rely on for offense, or is he now considered a role player that will produce at an All-Star level on an infrequent basis?..

The later unfortunately. great post though. He is capable of scoring rebounding and making plays but he only seems to be able to do one well each game as of now.

[cd021]

Were you thinking Kawhi's man zone?:nope Pause...No Homo.

[AFBlue]

December Manu is Role Player Manu. April Manu is Boss Manu.

Bump this thread in April.

[Bruno]

When a player is saying, like Manu did in training camp, that he might retire at the season, it's most of the time an alarming sign.

[spurs10]

'It is what it is.' He's clearly vital to the team's success. His passing alone, when not to spectators :lol, is on a pretty peerless level. Manu is near the end of his career, as is Tim, and I'm really enjoying seeing him play.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol CoM tryin to defend this posse...

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Well, I'll take RAPM over all the idiots/trolls here: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html

I don't think he will finish top 5 (there is probably some noise) or that he's been better than Timmy obviously, but advanced statistics no matter what is still>>>>idiots in this thread and his RAPM alone (including the previous seasons) coupled with his great numbers across the board last season (including near-career numbers in some categories), his play in the Olympics where he was outstanding and just his continued production in general at age 30+ that has continued to be elite make a lot of posts itt look incredibly ignorant.

It's amazing how someone like Manu can have haters on Spurs board of all places. Manu is still great. The players you think are good probably suck.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Manu really hurts the Spurs, he is sooo washed up. While you all bitch and moan about it waaaaa waaaa whyyyyyyyyy I found some quick proof: http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS.HTM

[Mouth is Bleeding]

fun fact (and even though there is some noise it's still the >>>>>noise in this thread) :

Manu Ginobili was .616 on two pointers last season which was fifth in the league. A career high. Add to that the more well known 3pt% and TS% highs.

He was 5th overall in winning percentage and landed on a 24.1 PER. All in all I'm confident he'll once again get a lot closer to production along those lines than any of the nonsense spewed in this tread.

[JRHernandez88]

@JRHernandez88 Thats it exactly. He does things that don't show up in the box score. And he has THOSE MOMENTS. He can go 1/8 and knock down a 3 to win.
Yup


Edit: A few caveats:

Thinking oneself as a role player does not mean less responsibility at all. It's just that he cannot be the focal point in offense whenever he is on the court like before. It needs to be Tony and Tim.

Unlike RJ type of player, we never need to worry about Manu's competitive will. Instead, the worry is that he still thinks he is his old-self and tries to do much and gets frustrated for not being able to do that. By tuning down the expectation a little bit, he can do more actually.

This only applies to Manu as we can always trust he will fight to the end no matter what. And this is the reason why he is my favorite player. But for players like Green/Leonard, you might want to encourage them to "think" more of themselves.

I honestly think he's just lacking confidence or second guessing himself right now. He'll be back tho...



Is Diaw a role player?
Is Dejuan Blair a barely legitimate player, or an insignificant role player?
Is Tim Duncan in his mid 30s?
Is Danny Green a true starter, or is it because he's on the Spurs? Would he start on the Atlanta Hawks? What about the Celtics?
Will Nando be a starter in his 30s, a limited role player, or back in Europe?????????
Is Gary Neal having a worse year than 2 seasons ago?
Kawhi Leonard's cock: over/under 8.5 inches?


Please respond to the above everyone, I' respect your opinions on these important issues.
:wow OVER


December Manu is Role Player Manu. April Manu is Boss Manu.

Bump this thread in April.

Mfkn co-signed. Ya'll might have missed him in the olympics, dude was ballin'...

[ALVAREZ6]

I don't know what others in ST are thinking, but my point is that Pop needs to see that Manu is not an all-star any more. Pardon me for using Kidd analogy again. Kidd is very important to what Knicks do, one of the biggest reasons they are the no.1 team in the East right now. But he and the Knicks coaches don't expect him to be in leading role in offense as in his old-days.
I don't think Manu is utilized as the leading role on offense.

[Slippy]

There will be times where Manu shows signs of his age. 5 games in 7 with most of them on the road will be one of those times where it really shows. If it means role player output so be it.

Fans need to understand the spurs hierarchy would be ok with this if it means pro-longing their careers and keeping the big three healthy for the plays-offs. I dont see this kind of thinking changing as long as the team coninues to win, others step up and the youngsters keep developing.

[letmk]

I don't think Manu is utilized as the leading role on offense.

It does not need Manu to take the same FGs as Tony or Tim to show that Pop still holds the hope that Manu would bail us out like before. Despite his age, Manu's understanding of the game, nifty moves and his court vision, let alone his fighting spirit, are all unrivaled by the young guys. But if you still want to use him the same way like when he was young, that would benefit neither Manu nor the team.

It's hard to put into words. For example, you can't just expect Manu to suddenly play gingerly as that's just not Manu. That's why I keep using Kidd as an example. You can see Kidd's usage rate is decreasing, and his pure statistical contribution is also decreasing. But in some sense, his contribution to the team success is still the same.

He used to do it all, and one can easily see that those Mavs, Suns and Nets teams are typical Jkidd's teams. Now he lets young guys do those things that young guys can also do well. Nobody would say that NY Knicks is Kidd's team. But for those special things that the young players don't know how to do yet are crucial to a win-or-loss, he is still doing that.

[Blizzardwizard]

As has been said, there are times when his age shows, but he has shown a few glimpses of his old self, sadly we won't see the best of him again.

[HI-FI]

I believe he's become more of a role player. when healthy for a prolonged period of time, he can obviously take over in a way role players can't. I think he'll still have some of that left in him for the playoffs, but I'm hoping nando can still start to fill the void.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

As has been said, there are times when his age shows, but he has shown a few glimpses of his old self, sadly we won't see the best of him again.

"Few" is an understatement. He's shown glimpses during maybe 2 or 3 games this season (out of 25 so far).

Seeing him go 3-6 from the free throw line (including missing 2 in a row down the stretch against Utah) really was surprising more than anything. The inconsistency of his free throw shooting in general has been troubling.

[ElNono]

December. Non-Issue

[Drz]

I love how Mouth Is Bleeding completely schooled the idiots criticizing Manu in this thread, and nobody said a word about it.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

I love how Mouth Is Bleeding completely schooled the idiots criticizing Manu in this thread, and nobody said a word about it.

Nobody said a word about it because he didn't school anybody. All I saw was "RAH RAH RAPM SAYS THIS AND LAST SEASON HE HAD THESE GREAT NUMBERS"

He implied that because Manu had spectacular per minute advanced stats last season, he was still capable of producing similar numbers this season. There's no indication that this assumption will hold up, especially given his age. It's a crapshoot at this point in his career.

As for RAPM, there's absolutely no indication that RAPM is the single best advanced stat one can use to properly encapsulate overall contribution to team success. PER, EWA, simple offensive - defensive rating differentials, and other stats tell a different story. An astute basketball aficionado looks at a combination of advanced stats to paint a picture.

O/U on Mouth is Bleeding being one of Drz's alts? They have the exact same posting style :lmao

[Drz]

Nobody said a word about it because he didn't school anybody. All I saw was "RAH RAH RAPM SAYS THIS AND LAST SEASON HE HAD THESE GREAT NUMBERS"

He implied that because Manu had spectacular per minute advanced stats last season, he was still capable of producing similar numbers this season. There's no indication that this assumption will hold up, especially given his age. It's a crapshoot at this point in his career.
The links he provided are for this season brosef.


O/U on Mouth is Bleeding being one of Drz's alts? They have the exact same posting style :lmao
We both have good taste in movies, but I prefer my avatars to be less of a male sex symbol.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

The links he provided are for this season brosef.



I wasn't referring to any of the links he posted, brosephine.


fun fact (and even though there is some noise it's still the >>>>>noise in this thread) :

Manu Ginobili was .616 on two pointers last season which was fifth in the league. A career high. Add to that the more well known 3pt% and TS% highs.

He was 5th overall in winning percentage and landed on a 24.1 PER. All in all I'm confident he'll once again get a lot closer to production along those lines than any of the nonsense spewed in this tread.

[Drz]

I wasn't referring to any of the links he posted, brosephine.
I did see that, but I thought there was no way you were saying his arguments were invalidated by him quoting one 2012 piece amongst his 2013 information. Guess I overestimated you, girl.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

I did see that, but I thought there was no way you were saying his arguments were invalidated by him quoting one 2012 piece amongst his 2013 information. Guess I overestimated you, girl.

You thought right. I never once said "his arguments are invalidated because he quoted 2012 stats amongst 2013 information."

I said:

1) His 2012 stats are arguably irrelevant given Ginobili's age
and
2) His over-reliance on RAPM is arguably unwarranted

Not surprised to see you attack a strawman, to be honest. I've come to expect mediocre-quality posts from you over the year(s).

[Drz]

:lol I love how you implied I'm attacking a strawman because I used words that weren't an exact quote of what you said... then you proceed to say you said two things that not only aren't quotes, they weren't even the gist of what you said! THAT, my amigo, is the definition of a strawman.

If you reread your original reply, I'm sure you can figure out why I replied the way I did. A hint, in case you need one.... you focused on a tiny piece of his message that had no bearing on his overall message.

Cheers to you for making my evening that much more entertaining. :toast

[jARS mEsH sEt]

:lol I love how you implied I'm attacking a strawman because I used words that weren't an exact quote of what you said... then you proceed to say you said two things that not only aren't quotes, they weren't even the gist of what you said! THAT, my amigo, is the definition of a strawman.

If you reread your original reply, I'm sure you can figure out why I replied the way I did. A hint, in case you need one.... you focused on a tiny piece of his message that had no bearing on his overall message.

Cheers to you for making my evening that much more entertaining. :toast

:lmao at failing to realize the mistake you made and trying to save face by acting as though I misrepresented your criticism of my post. Your response was a subtle but nonetheless crucial misinterpretation of my message.

As for the bolded part.....

Message 1: He implied that because Manu had spectacular per minute advanced stats last season, he was still capable of producing similar numbers this season. There's no indication that this assumption will hold up, especially given his age. It's a crapshoot at this point in his career.

Summary 1: 1) His 2012 stats are arguably irrelevant given Ginobili's age

Message 2: As for RAPM, there's absolutely no indication that RAPM is the single best advanced stat one can use to properly encapsulate overall contribution to team success. PER, EWA, simple offensive - defensive rating differentials, and other stats tell a different story. An astute basketball aficionado looks at a combination of advanced stats to paint a picture.

Summary 2: 2) His over-reliance on RAPM is arguably unwarranted


I'm not normally one to embarrass another poster, but there's something about your breathtaking arrogance that strikes a chord with me. If you can't properly read and comprehend messages 1 and 2 and understand why summaries 1 and 2, respectively, do - in fact - summarize the two messages in my original post, then you're an idiot, and anybody with 9th grade level-comprehension will be able to see that.

If you want an elaboration of the point I made in message 2 (and summary 2) -

His PER (18.0) is the lowest since his rookie season. His TS% (55.8) is the lowest since his sophomore season. His offensive/defensive rating differential (+7) is the lowest of his career.


1. I can't quote every stat, and win shares is my favorite catch-all. Let me know if you think there's a better one.

2. Completely agree with your facts. I could be wrong, but you seem to be implying that his efficiency has improved since he's come back to San Antonio, and if that's what you're implying, I disagree with that. His efficiency here seems in line with his career average.

3. I don't think he's had a "horrible" career, that was too strong of a word. He's obviously been a more than capable player. But I do think he is wildly overrated, especially on this board. Kind of an Allen Iverson lite.

Edit: Uh oh, Cagney picked your side... probably a sign for you to rethink things! :p:
Edit2: Since sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet, that first edit was a joke. Mostly.

His WS/48 (.155) is the lowest since his rookie season.

PER, TS%, offensive/defensive rating differential, and WS/48 are examples of the "other stats" I referenced in message 2. I wanted to explicitly point this out because you seem to have problems comprehending simple english.

[Manufan909]

How is it an overreaction thread?..

I didn't make a statement in the OP and it's a fair question..

I wouldn't go as far as to say your question was fair, but that's just me. Using two extremes is a terrible idea more often than not. I'd say no comment on the current Manu, who is
1) still clearly suffering somewhat from the back injury, and now has to deal with a bruised thigh to boot
2) using the patented Horry coasting method, which is even more logical considering Duncan is playing like it's '05, Parker is lighting it up, and both Neal and Tiago are providing consistent contributions
3) a team player who realizes when to take over, which clearly isn't needed on a team that can regularly put up well over 100 points, and has put up over 120 a few times with 2 of the best 6 players out for the past month, even with playing a tighter schedule than any other team so far.

If Manu gets completely healthy at some point this season AND decides to take over scoring-wising for a month and subsequently makes it clear he can't put points on the board like he used to, then maybe I'd lean towards roleplayer who has All-Star games every 6 games or so. But I just don't see that happening, and I doubt he even starts throwing up 15 shots a game until the playoffs anyways, so we'll have to wait a long time to know for sure.

EDIT: After reading the rest of this thread, I'd like to add that most likely Manu will lean towards being a roleplayer more than an All-Star for most of this season, due to the aforementioned circumstances. Scoring might be too heavily weighted in the OP though, because even if Manu is completely healthy for the 2nd half of the season, I still don't see him doing too much until the playoffs start. The only way he'd impose his will is if Tim started playing like crap out of nowhere, and the only player scoring over 15 was TP. Tony would probably go nuts like back in 09 when he was throwing up 30+ points every night, but Manu would still take significantly more control. Then again, it could be a team effort, Idk.

P.S. I'm really damn tired, so I apologize in advance if my post is nonsensical. It's not Blair tweets-level bad, but I know I rambled on and repeated myself somewhat.
:wakeup