Handgun murder stats

[Lincoln]

Last year handguns killed:

48 people in Japan

8 in Great Britain

34 in Switzerland

52 in Canada

58 in Israel

21 in Sweden

42 in West Germany

10,728 in the United States

[AussieFanKurt]

West Germany?

[DMC]

How do you kill a handgun?

[DMC]

There were more murders in prisons in the US than handgun kills in many other countries. It's not a reliable stat, and it's meaningless. There are no handguns in prison.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'll save us a few minutes.


There's no context to these!

Numbers don't lie, gun lover!

No, but Obama does, you liberal sheep!

Why do you hate children?

Why do you hate freedom?

Fuck you!

Fuck you!

Fuck you!!

Fuck you!!

Fuck you!!!

Fuck you!!!

[DisAsTerBot]

lol israel

[jeebus]

lol utsa

[TSA]

Last year handguns killed:

48 people in Japan

8 in Great Britain

34 in Switzerland

52 in Canada

58 in Israel

21 in Sweden

42 in West Germany

10,728 in the United States

Can you break down the US stats and tell me how many were murdered with legally registered handguns? Can you also stop being so butthurt that you aren't of age yet to legally own a handgun. Thanks.

[mavs>spurs]

mavdynasty and his kind come here and support retarded leftist shit that pushes us closer towards becoming like their shitty homelands imho. there ought to be a cap on how many of you stupid fucks are allowed to come here and say stupid shit.

[Latarian Milton]

more than 10k killed last year thats more than total casualties US suffered in iraq n afghanistan wars combined tbh, nonetheless, stripping common people of the right to own guns legally would only increase that number since the true thugs will always get their guns the illegal way anyways

[The Reckoning]

those stats for the US arent murders but homicides. self defense, police force, suicides, etc is included. in the land of the free, crime rate and incarceration per capita is highest in the world.

crime rate and gun deaths correlate, and often the most shootings happen in places with heavy gun control. guns are merely tools, desperation will find a way regardless.

end the war on drugs and those stats will be halved.

[mavs>spurs]

as violent as these liberals try to make us out to be, gunless great britain has like 2 or 3 times the violent crime rate of the US per capita because of all the muggings and robberies. went up after they banned guns btw. there is no fear deterrent so these thugs are free to do as they wish without risk.

[rascal]

mavdynasty and his kind come here and support retarded leftist shit that pushes us closer towards becoming like their shitty homelands imho. there ought to be a cap on how many of you stupid fucks are allowed to come here and say stupid shit.

America is shitty when it comes to gun laws and gun crimes. Shut up you pimp wanna be.

[mavs>spurs]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html


The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

By JAMES SLACK (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=James+Slack)

?Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/02/article-1196941-015B644E00001005-992_468x309.jpgBritain has an even worse violence rate than South Africa (file picture)




The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.
In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:



The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/02/article-1196941-05900DF7000005DC-677_468x636.jpg


The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.


'We're now on our fourth Home Secretary this parliament, and all we are getting is a rehash of old initiatives that didn't work the first time round. More than ever Britain needs a change of direction.'
The figures, compiled by the Tories, are considered the most accurate and up-to-date available.
But criminologists say crime figures can be affected by many factors, including different criminal justice systems and differences in how crime is reported and measured.
New Home Secretary Alan Johnson is to make his first major speech on crime today

In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured.
There are also degrees of violence. While the UK ranks above South Africa for all violent crime, South Africans suffer more than 20,000 murders each year - compared with Britain's 921 in 2007.
Experts say there are a number of reasons why violence is soaring in the UK. These include Labour's decision to relax the licensing laws to allow round-the-clock opening, which has led to a rise in the number of serious assaults taking place in the early hours of the morning.
But Police Minister David Hanson said: 'These figures are misleading.
Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime.
'Violent crime in England and Wales has fallen by almost a half a peak in 1995 but we are not complacent and know there is still work to do. That is why last year we published 'Saving lives. Reducing harm. Protecting the public. An Action Plan for Tackling Violence 2008-11'.'
The timing of the Europe-wide violence figures is a blow for Mr Johnson, who will today seek to reassert Labour's law and order credentials.
In his first major speech on crime since becoming Home Secretary, Mr Johnson is expected to promise a concerted crack down on antisocial behaviour.
He wants to set up a website to allow the public to see what is taking place in their neighbourhood, such as the number of louts who have been served with Asbos.
Mr Johnson is also known to support early intervention to stop children going off the rails.

[mavs>spurs]

:cry i need something to blame because i'm too mentally weak to cope with life :cry

learn 2 read faggot you might learn something

[rascal]

mavdynasty and his kind come here and support retarded leftist shit that pushes us closer towards becoming like their shitty homelands imho. there ought to be a cap on how many of you stupid fucks are allowed to come here and say stupid shit.

America is shitty when it comes to gun laws and gun crimes. Shut up you pimp wanna be.

[rascal]

learn 2 read faggot you might learn something

Really cool there asshole putting up shit that I did not even write.

[mavs>spurs]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/02/article-1196941-05900DF7000005DC-677_468x636.jpg

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[The Reckoning]

shooter was a kid from a recently divorced marriage btw. imo, more problems occur from selfish parents and poor parenting than guns.

[mavs>spurs]

looks like rascal wants to join the League of Shame! if you want more violent crime in this country why don't you start by killing yourself.

[HI-FI]

shooter was a kid from a recently divorced marriage btw. imo, more problems occur from selfish parents and poor parenting than guns.
sad truth. sad how much destruction shitty parenting has caused.

[DMC]

At some point a person becomes responsible for himself. Parenting isn't for life. Their responsibility was to raise him and they did. They didn't kick his ass enough. That's the problem.

[The_Worlds_finest]

Criminal on criminal murders do not count and should be considered a positive for allowing guns.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol isnt the shooter 25, why he depressed his parents divorced, ur a fkn adult...

[The Reckoning]

lol isnt the shooter 25, why he depressed his parents divorced, ur a fkn adult...


20 and lived with his mom who he shot in the face. aussies always get shit wrong.

[Trainwreck2100]

20 and lived with his mom who he shot in the face. aussies always get shit wrong.

He was still blaming the 25yo brother, who was innocent of everything. I hope he says the fuck out of every major news outlet and makes $$$$$

[Wild Cobra]

West Germany?
No shit.

Those stats must be before the unification.

[Bob Stoops]

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[Wild Cobra]

Last year handguns killed:

48 people in Japan

8 in Great Britain

34 in Switzerland

52 in Canada

58 in Israel

21 in Sweden

42 in West Germany

10,728 in the United States
I have no clue where you got thsoe stats, why didn't you link it?

Anyway, by your stats, the US has an approximate 15.5 x murder rate than Sweden does, per capita. Did you know that conscription into the military is Sweden was a 100% requirement for all able bodied males until 2010? When they left the service, they went home with their weapon. Sweden probably has the highest gun ownership rate in the world.

edit...

I'm sorry, my mistake. It is Switzerland that actually requires the service member keep all his weapons issued to him at home, and has the 100% conscription. The US has an 8 x murder rate per capita over Switzerland than we do.

[Richie]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/02/article-1196941-05900DF7000005DC-677_468x636.jpg

You're an idiot. The Daily Mail is a piece of shit I wouldn't wipe my ass with, not to mention your homicide rate per 100,000 is 4.2 whereas the UKs is 1.2. Nearly 4 times higher.

I don't really give a shit about US gun control laws, I generally side with the idea that since you have them you can't get rid of them, but you're just a fucking moron.

[Wild Cobra]

People like Bob Stoops should be banned for multiple identical graphics.

[Richie]

I have no clue where you got thsoe stats, why didn't you link it?

Anyway, by your stats, the US has an approximate 15.5 x murder rate than Sweden does, per capita. Did you know that conscription into the military is Sweden was a 100% requirement for all able bodied males until 2010? When they left the service, they went home with their weapon. Sweden probably has the highest gun ownership rate in the world.

I don't know about gun ownership rates, but the US has by far the most guns per person. Of course there are lots of people with dozens of guns for example which skew the statistics, it's perfectly plausible that there is higher gun ownership in Sweden.

The real argument when people show such a stat on handgun deaths is to look up the knife deaths for the corresponding countries. I imagine the US has very, very low knife homicide compared to the UK for example.

Can't find the stats, just a guess. The US homicide rate is however significantly higher than that in western Europe. Make of that what you will.

[Wild Cobra]

You're an idiot. The Daily Mail is a piece of shit I wouldn't wipe my ass with, not to mention your homicide rate per 100,000 is 4.2 whereas the UKs is 1.2. Nearly 4 times higher.
Yes, he is an idiot. Same can be said for you. His chart is of "violent crimes." not murder.

I don't really give a shit about US gun control laws, I generally side with the idea that since you have them you can't get rid of them, but you're just a fucking moron.
That is the problem the anti gun crowd never acknowledges. We have so many guns out there now, that only the upstanding legal citizen would turn their gins in, and then more criminals would have them by percentage. What criminal is going to release his gun willingly?

[Wild Cobra]

I don't know about gun ownership rates, but the US has by far the most guns per person. Of course there are lots of people with dozens of guns for example which skew the statistics, it's perfectly plausible that there is higher gun ownership in Sweden.

Most guns per person, but less equally divided. I'm not sure about Sweden, but Switzerland at least has almost every male member of age owning at least one rifle.


The real argument when people show such a stat on handgun deaths is to look up the knife deaths for the corresponding countries. I imagine the US has very, very low knife homicide compared to the UK for example.

Agreed. I just started looking at stats. Wiki has an entry on it, but you can't trust Wiki either until, verified:

Wiki: List of countries by intentional homicide rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

Anyway, the world average is 7.6 per 100,000 with the US at 4.2. The Americas average is 15.4


Can't find the stats, just a guess. The US homicide rate is however significantly higher than that in western Europe. Make of that what you will.
Western Europe is 1.0.

[Richie]

Yes, he is an idiot. Same can be said for you. His chart is of "violent crimes." not murder.

You simply can't compare violent crime between countries because the definition of violent crime varies so much, as well as variation in incident reporting. The only relevant statistic for comparison is homicide rate and method of homicide. Plus as I said, the Daily Mail is a scaremongering newspaper so take their statistics with a pinch of salt.

[Wild Cobra]

Now, if you believe this link: Total crimes (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes)

It shows that the UK has a crime rate of almost 3 times that of the USA. In fact, only Japan has a lower crime rate than the USA of the countries listed in the OP.

I will contend that our lower crime rate has much to do with a criminal not knowing if someone may be carrying.

[Wild Cobra]

You simply can't compare violent crime between countries because the definition of violent crime varies so much, as well as variation in incident reporting. The only relevant statistic for comparison is homicide rate and method of homicide. Plus as I said, the Daily Mail is a scaremongering newspaper so take their statistics with a pinch of salt.

I will agree, but you shouldn't have chastised him on your mistake.

[Richie]

Most guns per person, but less equally divided. I'm not sure about Sweden, but Switzerland at least has almost every male member of age owning at least one rifle.

IMO the Swiss model is what the founding fathers envisioned when they wrote the constitution. The Swiss see a firearm as an instrument of national defence. Despite the high number of guns they have a similar firearm homicide rate to the UK and other countries with strict gun controls.

The problems in the US are as much to do with the American culture related to guns rather than the proliferation of guns. The fact that you have millionaire sportsmen shooting themselves with guns is proof enough of that.

[Wild Cobra]

IMO the Swiss model is what the founding fathers envisioned when they wrote the constitution. The Swiss see a firearm as an instrument of national defence. Despite the high number of guns they have a similar firearm homicide rate to the UK and other countries with strict gun controls.

The problems in the US are as much to do with the American culture related to guns rather than the proliferation of guns. The fact that you have millionaire sportsmen shooting themselves with guns is proof enough of that.
I agree. The gun is only a tool. It's the morality and training of the people, not the tool they use.

[Richie]

I will agree, but you shouldn't have chastised him on your mistake.

Sorry, but no. The guy has clearly done a little google to find an article that backs up his opinion and posted it constantly. He hasn't got a clue about what happens in Britain. Crime figures have nothing to do with gun laws in this country, we have had gun controls since well before WW2. Not to mention I wouldn't believe anything written by that abortion of a newspaper regardless.

Again there are perfectly appropriate arguments to be made when it comes to Britain and guns, such as the fact that after an outright ban on handguns there was no statistical difference in gun related deaths in the following 10 years.

[Wild Cobra]

Again there are perfectly appropriate arguments to be made when it comes to Britain and guns, such as the fact that after an outright ban on handguns there was no statistical difference in gun related deaths in the following 10 years.
Weird.

I would think gun violence would increase, but yes. Banning guns would not do any good.

[TimDunkem]

lol utsa

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Xevious]

Weird.

I would think gun violence would increase, but yes. Banning guns would not do any good.
I see two possible outcomes if guns were to somehow be outlawed (won't happen, but whatever). First, if most law abiding citizens handed over their weapons, there'd still be a ton of illegal guns floating around. Gun trade would be similar to alcohol prohibition and organized crime would skyrocket. Or second, civil war would break out, because there's no way the government could disarm all the rednecks out there.

[Jacob1983]

People are imperfect beings which means they can be sick evil fucks sometimes. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying evil will always exist since people have free will and are imperfect beings. Everyone is talking about stricter gun laws but why not prepare people for this shit? Why not have drills and classes for shit like this so people can be trained on how to deal with this crazy shit?

[Richie]

Weird.

I would think gun violence would increase, but yes. Banning guns would not do any good.

I don't think many Americans understand that their cultural affinity with guns is very different to that of the rest of the world. Why do you think gun violence would increase? Nobody in the UK would even consider carrying a gun for self defence even before the outright ban, we've had strict controls on guns for nearly a century.

The whole point is that very few people had handguns, around 30,000 were handed over in the 5 years after the law came in.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I don't think many Americans understand that their cultural affinity with guns is very different to that of the rest of the world. Why do you think gun violence would increase? Nobody in the UK would even consider carrying a gun for self defence even before the outright ban, we've had strict controls on guns for nearly a century.

The whole point is that very few people had handguns, around 30,000 were handed over in the 5 years after the law came in.
This. The biggest problem with America is its obsession with guns (odd how the one "Christian" first world country left is the one obsessed with guns). That's why I'm tempted to agree with the gun lovers to an extent, people in America love guns so much and that's mainly why there are so many victims of gun violence every year. It's a cultural problem that can't be solved by gun laws.

[Wild Cobra]

This. The biggest problem with America is its obsession with guns (odd how the one "Christian" first world country left is the one obsessed with guns). That's why I'm tempted to agree with the gun lovers to an extent, people in America love guns so much and that's mainly why there are so many victims of gun violence every year. It's a cultural problem that can't be solved by gun laws.
Who's culture does most the gun violence come from? Are you speaking of race or religion?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Who's culture does most the gun violence come from? Are you speaking of race or religion?
I'm speaking of America as a whole, no particular race or religion.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm speaking of America as a whole, no particular race or religion.
That's because you can't handle the truth.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That's because you can't handle the truth.
More substance-less rhetoric :tu

[Wild Cobra]

More substance-less rhetoric :tu
Seriously.

What would our homicide rate in the USA be if Blacks didn't commit such crimes any more than Whites?

You can't handle the truth, can you?

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/orace.png (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm)

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Seriously.

What would our homicide rate in the USA be if Blacks didn't commit such crimes any more than Whites?

You can't handle the truth, can you?
:lmao I shoulda known you had some racist "truth" you think I couldn't handle.

The real truth is that your War on Drugs is why crime rates among blacks and white trash are so high.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You're confusing correlation with causation. Race isn't the real variable related to crime, poverty is, and blacks obviously have a much higher poverty rate than whites. Gun loving is also something you see a lot more among poor people than middle class or wealthy people.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao I shoulda known you had some racist "truth" you think I couldn't handle.

The real truth is that your War on Drugs is why crime rates among blacks and white trash are so high.
That is another factor, but race seems to be the primary factor.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That is another factor, but race seems to be the primary factor.
Poverty is the primary factor, which happens to correlate with race.

[Wild Cobra]

You're confusing correlation with causation. Race isn't the real variable related to crime, poverty is, and blacks obviously have a much higher poverty rate than whites. Gun loving is also something you see a lot more among poor people than middle class or wealthy people.
Yes, poverty is the key.

Now remember that the next time you play the race card for any reason.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If you wanna talk about what's not helping lower crime rates, it's southern states passing laws that make getting abortions harder. It's been statistically proven that legal abortions lead to lower crime rates.

[Wild Cobra]

If you wanna talk about what's not helping lower crime rates, it's southern states passing laws that make getting abortions harder. It's been statistically proven that legal abortions lead to lower crime rates.
If you make nothing illegal, there is no crime...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If you make nothing illegal, there is no crime...
:lmao what, that's your explanation? That has nothing to do with why abortion leads to lower violent crime rates.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao what, that's your explanation? That has nothing to do with why abortion leads to lower violent crime rates.
I figured that's where you were going with it. After all, an illegal abortion is a crime. Or are you saying we should euthanize unwanted unborn children so they don't grow up to be killers?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I figured that's where you were going with it. After all, an illegal abortion is a crime. Or are you saying we should euthanize unwanted unborn children so they don't grow up to be killers?
If you really figured that's where I was going I'm pretty sure your parents were siblings.

It's impossible to euthanize something that's unborn, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Wild Cobra]

If you really figured that's where I was going I'm pretty sure your parents were siblings.

It's impossible to euthanize something that's unborn, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Then tell me. How do the abortion laws increase the crime rates?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Then tell me. How do the abortion laws increase the crime rates?
More unwanted kids are born with parent(s) who aren't ready, financially or maturity wise to raise a kid, so the kid is way more likely to be someone who commits crimes, but you already knew that was explanation, didn't you?

[Wild Cobra]

More unwanted kids are born with parent(s) who aren't ready, financially or maturity wise to raise a kid, so the kid is way more likely to be someone who commits crimes, but you already knew that was explanation, didn't you?
So you want to feticide them instead.

Got it.

[Wild Cobra]

Where'd you go Duncan?

Am I to understand you want to see more abortion, as a preemptive killing, to prevent future killings?

[Lincoln]

I think he's busy triangulating this girls position based on the shadows on google earth.

[TSA]

I think he's busy triangulating this girls position based on the shadows on google earth.
You start this thread, don't respond to anything in it, and instead come with some three year old joke about WC? You're a fucking joke dude. Defend your OP and respond to the questions asked or don't bother posting, unless you don't mind being looked at as an unintelligent little bitchmade sissy boy who's afraid to talk to girls and own guns responsibly.

[Lincoln]

You start this thread, don't respond to anything in it, and instead come with some three year old joke about WC? You're a fucking joke dude. Defend your OP and respond to the questions asked or don't bother posting, unless you don't mind being looked at as an unintelligent little bitchmade sissy boy who's afraid to talk to girls and own guns responsibly.

Lol fuckin 35 year old college dropout faggot obsessed with me. Follow me around some more

[Viva Las Espuelas]

:lol

You guys fight over some stupid shit

:lmao

[TSA]

Lol fuckin 35 year old college dropout faggot obsessed with me. Follow me around some moreYour ability to become an even shittier poster amazes me. follow you around? You started a thread dumbass, I posed a question you have repeatedly dodged. Why not show some maturity and balls and back up your claims and answer the fucking questions asked?

[Lincoln]

Your ability to become an even shittier poster amazes me. follow you around? You started a thread dumbass, I posed a question you have repeatedly dodged. Why not show some maturity and balls and back up your claims and answer the fucking questions asked?

You follow me thru all the forums like a dick riding bitch, quoting me post after post. Are you a lap dog in real life too or are you just a bitch online?

[TSA]

You follow me thru all the forums like a dick riding bitch, quoting me post after post. Are you a lap dog in real life too or are you just a bitch online?
Is this all you got? I post here maybe once a month so your claim is retardedly impossible. Keep dodging the question though, it's definitely not making you look like you're backed in a corner. Nice job refraining from using the word faggot in two sentences. I can see you growing as we speak.

[Lincoln]

Is this all you got? I post here maybe once a month so your claim is retardedly impossible. Keep dodging the question though, it's definitely not making you look like you're backed in a corner. Nice job refraining from using the word faggot in two sentences. I can see you growing as we speak.

Lol my lapdog follows me everywhere through the club to the NFL forum. Do you want my dick or something?

[mavs>spurs]

You start this thread, don't respond to anything in it, and instead come with some three year old joke about WC? You're a fucking joke dude. Defend your OP and respond to the questions asked or don't bother posting, unless you don't mind being looked at as an unintelligent little bitchmade sissy boy who's afraid to talk to girls and own guns responsibly.

:lmao:lmao..holy shit..

[mavs>spurs]

That's why I'm tempted to agree with the gun lovers to an extent

Well who else's side could you possibly be on? You own a gun chode..

[Richie]

Where'd you go Duncan?

Am I to understand you want to see more abortion, as a preemptive killing, to prevent future killings?

I understand this is a big thing in America compared to pretty much everyone else in the western world, but a fetus isn't life until it can survive on it's own. Aborting a fetus at 8 or 10 weeks isn't murder IMO.

However, you must surely agree that teenage pregnancy is a key factor in poverty. Less teenage pregnancy = less poverty, and since we all agree that the cause of the majority of gun deaths is poverty, does this not answer your question?

[TSA]

Lol my lapdog follows me everywhere through the club to the NFL forum. Do you want my dick or something?

Do you not understand the purpose of a forum? You post, someone replies. Simple concept really. Whatever dude, I'm out. Obviously not getting an intelligent response out of you. Having fun running around the board calling people lapdogs, like that is some sort of insult, don't forget to add your patented faggot closer for a real zinger. Enjoy the rest of your day on a message board, I'm getting ready to go to Idyllwild to shoot my new 14.5 BCM "assault rifle", and like a responsible adult I'll be sure to bring my handguns.

[mavs>spurs]

I understand this is a big thing in America compared to pretty much everyone else in the western world, but a fetus isn't life until it can survive on it's own. Aborting a fetus at 8 or 10 weeks isn't murder IMO.

However, you must surely agree that teenage pregnancy is a key factor in poverty. Less teenage pregnancy = less poverty, and since we all agree that the cause of the majority of gun deaths is poverty, does this not answer your question?

yeah you british cocksuckers have end of life paths for kids who are born with any sort of defects, a lot of the parents of these kids speak out saying that their kids are now full grown adults who lead happy, normal lives and the doctors wanted to murder them in infancy. they did a whole report on it how they starve and dehydrate the little babies over the course of days and leave them to die in their little beds. you british are some nasty teeth, tea and crumpet eating sick fucks and i'm glad all the ambitious ones of the bunch migrated here hundreds of years ago and left you faggots to rot in shit.

[mavs>spurs]

Do you not understand the purpose of a forum? You post, someone replies. Simple concept really. Whatever dude, I'm out. Obviously not getting an intelligent response out of you. Having fun running around the board calling people lapdogs, like that is some sort of insult, don't forget to add your patented faggot closer for a real zinger. Enjoy the rest of your day on a message board, I'm getting ready to go to Idyllwild to shoot my new 14.5 BCM "assault rifle", and like a responsible adult I'll be sure to bring my handguns.

i hate you sometimes and think you can be a total faggot but i'm backing you up 100% these last couple of days, i'm also going out to shoot my .40 cal later this afternoon shortly

[TSA]

i hate you sometimes and think you can be a total faggot but i'm backing you up 100% these last couple of days, i'm also going out to shoot my .40 cal later this afternoon shortly
Click clack. Got my Sig 229 equinox in .40, love that gun. Once I move out of Cali it will be my everyday concealed carry.

[Richie]

yeah you british cocksuckers have end of life paths for kids who are born with any sort of defects, a lot of the parents of these kids speak out saying that their kids are now full grown adults who lead happy, normal lives and the doctors wanted to murder them in infancy. they did a whole report on it how they starve and dehydrate the little babies over the course of days and leave them to die in their little beds. you british are some nasty teeth, tea and crumpet eating sick fucks and i'm glad all the ambitious ones of the bunch migrated here hundreds of years ago and left you faggots to rot in shit.

Still a moron I see. The care pathways you are mentioning are an topic of interesting debate over here at the moment, I'm happy to have a real debate about it but you seem incapable to actually having a rational debate.

Personally I have no problem with euthanasia for terminally ill patients, young or old, and I dislike care pathways as it's a horrible halfway house which is the worst of all worlds.

[mavs>spurs]

these weren't terminally ill patients, they were children born with varying degrees of birth defects many of whom outgrew them and grew up to be healthy but if their doctors had their way would have been murdered in infancy. that's the problem with doctors playing god to free up a bed and lower costs, you can't really measure the fight in a person or their will to live, supernatural forces or luck if you're non religious etc, those things that cause a person to defeat the odds. you trendies and liberals always play the "you're just a big dummy and not enlightened like me!" card but son in reality you don't havfe a pot to piss in and sound like an ass on the subject. blah blah blah that's all you've got to say, i'm having a real conversation and making real points the difference is i can insult you and make you look like a clown at the same time too. lol tea and crumpets.

[Richie]

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about. Care pathways are for end-of-life care, not just people with birth defects. However, when I have a child I will definitely test for downs syndrome and would consider aborting if the test was positive.

And trust me, I'm not a liberal as you understand it. A classical liberal maybe, but not a big government liberal like you think I am.

[Wild Cobra]

I understand this is a big thing in America compared to pretty much everyone else in the western world, but a fetus isn't life until it can survive on it's own. Aborting a fetus at 8 or 10 weeks isn't murder IMO.

However, you must surely agree that teenage pregnancy is a key factor in poverty. Less teenage pregnancy = less poverty, and since we all agree that the cause of the majority of gun deaths is poverty, does this not answer your question?
I understand exactly what he is saying, and it boils down to him ignoring the root problem.

Individual responsibility.

[Richie]

I understand exactly what he is saying, and it boils down to him ignoring the root problem.

Individual responsibility.

I agree completely, but is it reasonable to expect teenagers of 14 and 15 to always make rational choices? I would argue perhaps not.

I've had this debate before, and what people ignore is that it is you picking up the bill. Your tax dollars are paying child support for these kids who basically trap their mothers in to a life of poverty. Giving women the choice is in everyones best interests.

[HI-FI]

I agree completely, but is it reasonable to expect teenagers of 14 and 15 to always make rational choices? I would argue perhaps not.

I've had this debate before, and what people ignore is that it is you picking up the bill. Your tax dollars are paying child support for these kids who basically trap their mothers in to a life of poverty. Giving women the choice is in everyones best interests.
but that also brings up the point of a welfare state as well. People feel like they can be more careless in their choices if they feel like Big Brother will offer them a safety net (ie other people picking up the tab). Perhaps in a situation where people realize they have to be more accountable and fix their on mistakes, perhaps they won't be fucking around as much and allowing a guy to creampie them.

however, Africa is a shithole and people are still popping out kids in the midst of poverty, so basically humanity is damaged goods.

[leemajors]

but that also brings up the point of a welfare state as well. People feel like they can be more careless in their choices if they feel like Big Brother will offer them a safety net (ie other people picking up the tab). Perhaps in a situation where people realize they have to be more accountable and fix their on mistakes, perhaps they won't be fucking around as much and allowing a guy to creampie them.

however, Africa is a shithole and people are still popping out kids in the midst of poverty, so basically humanity is damaged goods.

No, sex is the best free entertainment there is. You're way overthinking it.

[HI-FI]

No, sex is the best free entertainment there is. You're way overthinking it.
it's a great form of entertainment, no doubt, but I don't know if free is the word I'd use. Maybe best form of entertainment that you have to work at, unless one is like the average ST member who wins fights at the bar and fucks every lady there afterwards.

[Wild Cobra]

I agree completely, but is it reasonable to expect teenagers of 14 and 15 to always make rational choices? I would argue perhaps not.

I've had this debate before, and what people ignore is that it is you picking up the bill. Your tax dollars are paying child support for these kids who basically trap their mothers in to a life of poverty. Giving women the choice is in everyones best interests.
What about the father?

I say give them a choice all right. Adoption. There are plenty of people who want to adopt infants. Few adoptive parents want kids raised already from someone else. I'll go past that. If children become the reason to get on the government take, then since responsibility was not used, to prevent this from happening again, both parents get their tubes tied. If the parents have a child they cannot afford to take care of at the time when they conceive, then make it so they cannot do the same thing again. Ehat right do they have to put tax payers in that position?

Abortion should be outlawed. It is immoral.

[johnsmith]

Racist fuck

[Wild Cobra]

Racist fuck
Talking to me?

That isn't racist. Are you saying only one race has this problem?

[johnsmith]

Talking to me?

That isn't racist. Are you saying only one race has this problem?


Spare me....anyone that has watched you post over the years knows you're a racist and terrified of them "colored folks" as you put it.

[Wild Cobra]

Spare me....anyone that has watched you post over the years knows you're a racist and terrified of them "colored folks" as you put it.
No, but I do push the bounds to see how many people like you are indoctrinated to believe that any remark that can be construed as racist is. You proved yourself to be a moronic bigot, or for lack of better terms, reverse racism.

[johnsmith]

No, but I do push the bounds to see how many people like you are indoctrinated to believe that any remark that can be construed as racist is. You proved yourself to be a moronic bigot, or for lack of better terms, reverse racism.

Lol...you go ahead and show me an example of me displaying reverse racism you hateful fuck.

[Wild Cobra]

Lol...you go ahead and show me an example of me displaying reverse racism you hateful fuck.
Your recent actions are a perfect example.

[Wild Cobra]

My proposed actions are racist, but abortion isn't? How do you figure?

link: Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger (http://www.blackgenocide.org/planned.html)

[johnsmith]

Your recent actions are a perfect example.

Lol...which recent actions? I you're referring to me calling you a racist fuck, then I find it funny that anyone that finds you to be a racist fuck is obviously a racist....honestly, at least your consistently an idiot.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Oh well. I tried.

[boutons_deux]

5 Lies The Gun Lobby Tells You

America’s seems to be in for another debate over gun regulation after the slaughter at Sandy Hook Elementary School left 27 (mostly children) dead. So it’s worth reviewing five made against regulating gun ownership in the United States:

MYTH #1: More guns don’t lead to more murders. A survey by researchers at the Harvard University School of Public Health found strong statistical support for the idea that, even if you control for poverty levels, more people die from gun homicides in areas with higher rates of gun ownership [2]. And despite what gun advocates say, countries like Israel and Switzerland don’t disprove the point [3].

MYTH #2: The Second Amendment prohibits strict gun control. While the Supreme Court ruled in D.C. v. Heller that bans on handgun ownership were unconstitutional, the ruling gives the state and federal governments a great deal of latitude to regulate that gun ownership as they choose. As the U.S. Second Court of Appeals put it in a recent ruling [4] upholding a New York regulation, “The state’s ability to regulate firearms and, for that matter, conduct, is qualitatively different in public than in the home. Heller reinforces this view. In striking D.C.’s handgun ban, the Court stressed that banning usable handguns in the home is a ‘policy choice[]‘ that is ‘off the table,’ but that a variety of other regulatory options remain available, including categorical bans on firearm possession in certain public locations.”

MYTH #3: State-level gun controls haven’t worked. Scholars Richard Florida and Charlotta Mellander recently studied [5] state-to-state variation in gun homicide levels. They found that [6] “[f]irearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation.” This is backed up by research on local gun control efforts [6] and cross-border gun violence [7].

MYTH #4: We only need better enforcement of the laws we have, not new laws. In fact, Congress has passed several laws that cripple the ability for current gun regulations to be enforced the way that they’re supposed to. According to researchers at the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, a series of federal laws [8] referred to as the Tiahrt amendments “limit public access to crime gun trace data, prohibit the use of gun trace data in hearings, pertaining to licensure of gun dealers and litigation against gun dealers, and restrict ATF’s authority to require gun dealers to conduct a physical inventory of their firearms.” Other federal laws “limited the ATF compliance inspections” and grant “broad protections from lawsuits against firearm manufacturers and retail sellers.”

MYTH #5: Sensible gun regulation is prohibitively unpopular. Not necessarily. As the New Republic’s Amy Sullivan reported after the series of mass shootings this summer, a majority of Americans would prefer both to enforce existing law more strictly and pass new regulations on guns [9] when given the option to choose both rather than either/or. Specific gun regulations are also often more popular than the abstract idea [5].

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/5-lies-gun-lobby-tells-you?akid=9806.187590.YyQu5W&rd=1&src=newsletter761596&t=8

If the guns-and-ammo/NRA lips are moving, they're lying to you FOR PROFIT.

[Wild Cobra]

Another alternet reality view.

[johnsmith]

Another alternet reality view.

Alternet reality view eh? Is that like an Internet company or something?

[purplengold]

all da talk of violence around USA but it just happen in ghetto neighborhoods n red states

[Koolaid_Man]

more than 10k killed last year thats more than total casualties US suffered in iraq n afghanistan wars combined tbh, nonetheless, stripping common people of the right to own guns legally would only increase that number since the true thugs will always get their guns the illegal way anyways


:lol you pro gun advocates are extreme...no one is talking about taking away your guns...but the requirement to obtain them should be much more exhaustive...certain types should be banned from civilian use...and penalties (for those would be criminals) who would try to maintain such weapons should be so severe and draconian that not even from the grave would Bin Laden want to own one....

The reform would be comprehensive and it would work....

[Koolaid_Man]

What about the father?

I say give them a choice all right. Adoption. There are plenty of people who want to adopt infants. Few adoptive parents want kids raised already from someone else. I'll go past that. If children become the reason to get on the government take, then since responsibility was not used, to prevent this from happening again, both parents get their tubes tied. If the parents have a child they cannot afford to take care of at the time when they conceive, then make it so they cannot do the same thing again. Ehat right do they have to put tax payers in that position?

Abortion should be outlawed. It is immoral.


well when King David of Israel killed an Israeli soldier just so he could sleep with his wife, remember God decreed that the unborn child would die...and die it did...

if the mother's life is at stake or a woman is raped she should be free to abort....once a heartbeat starts then I classify it as baby...I don't consider Zygotes babies....anything you can freeze is not a baby...:lol

people of all races do things for their personal benefit...as a black man I've observed the following and feel free to say:



Poor Mexican's have kids to help them stay in the US...plus their catholic beliefs weigh heavy on them to not abort...sadly a ton of Mexican men like to molest their kids..apparently in harmony with the catholic's church best practices
Poor Blacks tend to have kids for all kinds of government benefits...some have kids because the young black male has a voracious sexual appetite and is just spreading seed irresponsibly...
Poor whites abort in the backyards of the Southern woods and so no one ever really knows the true aborted numbers of whites; they also have their kids and then resort to killing them when they get tired of taking care of them.


but I agree with you in a sense...regardless if your motivations are race related....on a macro level it's easy for people to take what you say concerning tubes tied as racist and dismiss it...but if you were to quantify the numbers locally and people could see the money coming out of their pay-checks because of the people having kids knowing good and well they have ZERO intention of taking care of those kids...I think they'd sing a different tune....

it's just about responsibility that's all...

[Will Hunting]

Koolaid_Man BULLYING the bible thumpers he's supposed to bully, no surprises here.

[Latarian Milton]

:lol you pro gun advocates are extreme...no one is talking about taking away your guns...but the requirement to obtain them should be much more exhaustive...certain types should be banned from civilian use...and penalties (for those would be criminals) who would try to maintain such weapons should be so severe and draconian that not even from the grave would Bin Laden want to own one....

The reform would be comprehensive and it would work....
guys like you must also believe obamacare actually works tbh. enhancing the law will only make an impact on the innocent people who would never commit gun crimes anyway while the real trugs would still get guns illegally, which would leave the innocent people even more vulnerable to gun crimes imho. james holmes was a legal gun possessor but even if he wasn't allowed to have the gun legally, do you believe that he wouldn't have one illegally when it's much easier n cheaper to purchase a gun from black market than buy one from legal source? assholes would do massive killings but they wouldn't possess a gun illegally because it's illegal? quit fooling yourself brah

[Koolaid_Man]

guys like you must also believe obamacare actually works tbh. enhancing the law will only make an impact on the innocent people who would never commit gun crimes anyway while the real trugs would still get guns illegally, which would leave the innocent people even more vulnerable to gun crimes imho. james holmes was a legal gun possessor but even if he wasn't allowed to have the gun legally, do you believe that he wouldn't have one illegally when it's much easier n cheaper to purchase a gun from black market than buy one from legal source? assholes would do massive killings but they wouldn't possess a gun illegally because it's illegal? quit fooling yourself brah

what proof do you have showing Obama care doesn't work? so far so good as far as I can tell...your whole gun argument is a facade...a completely thoughtless talking point...similar to the white trash singular talking point of "I'm against big government" :lol when people commit crimes they generally use hand guns...a comprehensive ban for certain types for certain people is a step in the right direction...harsher penalties for criminals will be a strong deterrent...thus far your argument is a joke...

[ALVAREZ6]

:lmao this thread is great

[DMC]

:lol you pro gun advocates are extreme...no one is talking about taking away your guns...but the requirement to obtain them should be much more exhaustive...certain types should be banned from civilian use...and penalties (for those would be criminals) who would try to maintain such weapons should be so severe and draconian that not even from the grave would Bin Laden want to own one....

The reform would be comprehensive and it would work....

Unless you can show some understanding of the existing laws and some knowledge of gun classifications, and you can separate bullshit from fact, you really should stick to talking about your fat Mexican GF and how sexy you look in your tight Walmart shirts.

[Wild Cobra]

but I agree with you in a sense...regardless if your motivations are race related....on a macro level it's easy for people to take what you say concerning tubes tied as racist and dismiss it...
The prejudice ones are whose who assume it is race motivated on my part. Those assuming that blacks are the only ones doing this and that whites or other races don't, I would say are the racists.

Did you know that there are more poor white people benefiting off government handouts than poor black people?

This is not a race issue. Anyone who tries to make it that, is poorly educated on such matters, or indoctrinated to think anything that appears to be against blacks, is targeted against them exclusively.

Not very intelligent if you ask me.

[Koolaid_Man]

The prejudice ones are whose who assume it is race motivated on my part. Those assuming that blacks are the only ones doing this and that whites or other races don't, I would say are the racists.

Did you know that there are more poor white people benefiting off government handouts than poor black people?

This is not a race issue. Anyone who tries to make it that, is poorly educated on such matters, or indoctrinated to think anything that appears to be against blacks, is targeted against them exclusively.

Not very intelligent if you ask me.


^ This is knowledge to me that is as old as the Mona Lisa ...:lol it's not a race issue...i know it happens in all races I've seen people of all races do it...I know a few black women that I went to school with that settled on baby making as a way to earn money...i think it's despicable no matter who does it...those poor kids never had a chance to be successful in life...I think this is more about people taking advantage of a system that pretty much encourages this behavior...and they'd rather get a 200.00 a month check than find a job even if it is at Burger King...

I love my black people but this shit has got to stop...I'm not Pro Black I'm just for fairness across the board..some people may misinterpret my views and think I'm racist because I love white women but I'm far from racist...I remember one time when I decided to give the whole support black businesses thing a try and got burned badly...After asking for months I let this brotha cut my lawn...in fact I fired the Mexican that was cutting and hired the black guy...this guy started out ok...but then he started cutting on Fri....then he would weed eat on Sat..and finally he would come back on Sun to blow and pick-up grass clippings...on top of that he told me his truck broke down and asked if I could loan him 1200.00 for the repairs and that he would cut for free until he paid off the loan...I agreed to it as long as he finished the job in one day and not over the course of 3 days...once he paid off the loan I said good-bye and hired me another Mexican crew...one that actually was responsible...

let me get this shit off my chest...when people come to my house for repairs they immediately try to up-charge because of the affluent hood I live in...Blacks come with that bullshit most of the time....whites want to charge 1000% more because they feel entitled but I usually get a good deal from Hispanics...shit is wild man...:lol

[johnsmith]

The prejudice ones are whose who assume it is race motivated on my part. Those assuming that blacks are the only ones doing this and that whites or other races don't, I would say are the racists.

Did you know that there are more poor white people benefiting off government handouts than poor black people?

This is not a race issue. Anyone who tries to make it that, is poorly educated on such matters, or indoctrinated to think anything that appears to be against blacks, is targeted against them exclusively.

Not very intelligent if you ask me.

When it comes to you, wild cobra, people think its a race issue because your posting history reflects that of a racist....you racist.

[Koolaid_Man]

Unless you can show some understanding of the existing laws and some knowledge of gun classifications, and you can separate bullshit from fact, you really should stick to talking about your fat Mexican GF and how sexy you look in your tight Walmart shirts.

suck ya mamma titty cry-baby

[Leetonidas]

So you want to feticide them instead.

Got it.

Are you retarded dude? What the fuck kind of red herring is that?