Quick Grades: Spurs @ Knicks - Jan. 3

[timvp]

Tim Duncan B-
Compared to others, actually played decently well. Interior D was solid but help defense wasn’t sharp.

Manu Ginobili D
A train wreck in his opening stint. Eventually got slightly better but D was poor and O was very ragged.

Tony Parker C+
Stats look acceptable but lacked precision when running the show. Struggled to penetrate. D was iffy.

Kawhi Leonard C
Commendable effort against Melo but results were mixed. Too aggressive on O, especially from downtown.

Danny Green C+
Didn’t shoot it as straight as normal but his O was acceptable. He had moments on D but was subpar overall.

Tiago Splitter C-
D was great early but fell off a cliff as game progressed. Offensively, he struggled versus NY’s size.

Boris Diaw C+
Too passive with his shooting. Somewhat sloppy with his passes. D in the interior wasn’t strong.

Stephen Jackson Inc.
Got hurt by a waitress not paying attention.

Gary Neal D+
Struggled handling the ball. Struggled passing it. Struggled shooting. Struggled defending. Out of sync.

Matt Bonner D-
Picked a bad time to not be able to hit a shot. Weakside zoning on D was laughably bad.

Patrick Mills B
Hustled on the boards. Played tough defense on switches. Ran the court hard but little production on O.

Nando De Colo Inc.
Hit a few jumpers in garbage time.

Pop C
Was probably too aggressive with gameplan for Melo. Should he have rested Big 3? I don't know.

[Boomersgold]

Thanks for the grades! How much of Neal's poor showing can be attributed to his strained calf?

[RD2191]

i don't understand how a team can play so bad, i mean yes maybe they were tired but damn the whole freekin team sucked. you would think at least a couple of players would play well enough to avoid a blowout. smh

[Darius McCrary]

I love how our team predictably collectively plays like crap when we allforesee fatigue as a factor.

[BillMc]

LJ, a bit off your grades topic (and thanks for them by the way), but do you think Blair is done not even getting a few garbage time minutes? It seemed Pop didn't want to waste the time even letting him "practice" when the game was lost...

Sad. For all his much discussed weaknesses, he has a real enthuisiaim for the game, and it's a real shame if he's on his way out of the NBA.

[raybies]

Four games in five nights sandwiching new years. Big three didn't play much. Basically a modified rest.

Anyone worried about this game...

[Paranoid Pop]

Tim and TP were only minus 2, confirms to me that there's a real problem with the second unit...

Tiago with 3 rebounds in 27 minutes...

We shot even more 3s than the Knicks, which is the typical sign that Pop panicked and got desesperate. He never goes big to try to get more rebounds, he always goes smaller and have his players shoot 3s every possession...

Let's get a 3rd big big, doesn't matter if it cost Sjax, not like he's helping that much and let's figure out the guard rotation and the team may end up being a true contender.

[Paranoid Pop]

Also how can Pop have a better grade than Manu and Neal when he sets them up to fail by playing them together?

[HI-FI]

i caught the second half, things seemed to get worse when i started watching. I can't stand Friendkiller on the Knicks but he has making us look bad out there.

it was hilarious to see Parker and Bonner in playoff mode though. We definitely need some rest. Some athleticism wouldn't hurt either tbh.

[Jumi]

We lost. On to the next one!!!

[TDMVPDPOY]

didnt check carmelos FGA, but keepin him under his ppg avg was good...

too bad the others scored at will on the spurs when it was 8 on 5 for the night

[TD 21]

The game plan on Anthony was horrible. It's the same one they started with against him in the last meeting and it hurt them then, too. They paid him too much respect (why not at least see if Leonard/Jackson can do a reasonable job straight up before resorting to that?) and all of the mad scrambling/rotating only further sapped the energy (especially the guy coming over from the opposite corner to double on the baseline, which was often Parker) of an already tired team.

Something's up with Blair. Even though they're clearly done with him, to not play him in a blowout doesn't make sense. Could this be a sign that they're closing in on a trade? I doubt it, but you never know.

[Johnny RIngo]

i don't understand how a team can play so bad, i mean yes maybe they were tired but damn the whole freekin team sucked. you would think at least a couple of players would play well enough to avoid a blowout. smh

Parker couldn't even get by Prigs tonight. He was definitely tired. And when Ginobili plays horrible, the entire bench falls apart. Same thing happened with the Clippers games.

[ElNono]

Manu was bad tonight, no spinning det one... to compound the problem, he had to guard JR Smith who's an athletic freak and can shoot lights out.

Making Prigioni, a borderline NBA player, look like Jason Kidd in his prime was unexpected though.

[timvp]

Thanks for the grades! How much of Neal's poor showing can be attributed to his strained calf?He didn't appear to be injured. The issue seemed more to be him having no rhythm. It's been a loooong time since Neal played PG against a pressure defense.


I love how our team predictably collectively plays like crap when we allforesee fatigue as a factor.Yeah, a win tonight would have been the best win of the season since it would have been so unforeseen. I thought a split on this road trip was a good outcome so I'm satisfied with how it played out, tbh.


LJ, a bit off your grades topic (and thanks for them by the way), but do you think Blair is done not even getting a few garbage time minutes?
Yeah, that's really weird. I didn't notice until after the game but Blair not getting garbage time? And Diaw pressed into garbage time duty? That is weird. It could theoretically point to a trade or a buyout or something like that. However, the more likely explanation is the doctors didn't want him to play. He's obviously at about 30-40% physically right now.

[Dr. Robert Lee]

i don't understand how a team can play so bad, i mean yes maybe they were tired but damn the whole freekin team sucked. you would think at least a couple of players would play well enough to avoid a blowout. smh
The good news is that we were still in the game, despite the trainwreck unfolding out on court.

[TMTTRIO]

I don't know why Pop expects Manu to continue to carry the bench without one of the other Big 2 out there. He can't anymore on a consistent basis and just can't produce like he used to without turning the ball over a thousand times.

[timvp]

Also how can Pop have a better grade than Manu and Neal when he sets them up to fail by playing them together?Manu and Neal were a great combination last year in the regular season and earlier this season.


Making Prigioni, a borderline NBA player, look like Jason Kidd in his prime was unexpected though.There was some massive scouting failures. The Spurs were sending traps at Prigioni and collapsing the defense on his drives. I don't know WTF they were thinking. He's not a good finisher -- even on the international level -- and you always play him to pass. When the Spurs collapsed off of Novak for the fifth time to contain his drive, I was hoping whoever drew up this scouting report got fired, tbh.

[TDMVPDPOY]

manu was just being manu tonight this season...his being very consistent these days not showing up

[Richie]

The game plan on Anthony was horrible. It's the same one they started with against him in the last meeting and it hurt them then, too. They paid him too much respect (why not at least see if Leonard/Jackson can do a reasonable job straight up before resorting to that?) and all of the mad scrambling/rotating only further sapped the energy (especially the guy coming over from the opposite corner to double on the baseline, which was often Parker) of an already tired team.

Something's up with Blair. Even though they're clearly done with him, to not play him in a blowout doesn't make sense. Could this be a sign that they're closing in on a trade? I doubt it, but you never know.

Thought we played Melo pretty well tbh, he only had 13 at half time.

We were still in the game when Duncan and Tony sat in the 3rd, only down 7. We lost it with a 10-0 run in the first 96 seconds of the 4th.

I don't consider it a coincidence that the run happened with Bonner on the floor and Green at the 3 guarding Melo. The bench really missed Jacksons D

[timvp]

The game plan on Anthony was horrible. It's the same one they started with against him in the last meeting and it hurt them then, too. They paid him too much respect (why not at least see if Leonard/Jackson can do a reasonable job straight up before resorting to that?) and all of the mad scrambling/rotating only further sapped the energy (especially the guy coming over from the opposite corner to double on the baseline, which was often Parker) of an already tired team.

Agreed. Melo is good but they were treating him like he was LeBron on steroids. Play him straight up and then adjust if he's hot. I can see a different strategy if the Knicks started him at PF but he was at SF ... so just treat him like any other SF. No need to double-team him on the catch from the first possession of the game.

A part of me thinks Pop was just having the team work on their rotations. Doubling Melo and then rotating to cover their deadly three-point shooters is a hell of a drill. It makes little sense if you're trying to actually trying to win the game, though.

[ElNono]

There was some massive scouting failures. The Spurs were sending traps at Prigioni and collapsing the defense on his drives. I don't know WTF they were thinking. He's not a good finisher -- even on the international level -- and you always play him to pass. When the Spurs collapsed off of Novak for the fifth time to contain his drive, I was hoping whoever drew up this scouting report got fired, tbh.

Agreed. I was pointing that out in the game thread. Those back to back inbound steals on Neal that broke the game wide open are textbook Prigioni steals.

[Paranoid Pop]

Thought we played Melo pretty well tbh, he only had 13 at half time.

We were still in the game when Duncan and Tony sat in the 3rd, only down 7. We lost it with a 10-0 run in the first 96 seconds of the 4th.

I don't consider it a coincidence that the run happened with Bonner on the floor and Green at the 3 guarding Melo. The bench really missed Jacksons D

Well said, Pop is so dumb for playing Green at the 3 over and over again when it's an utter failure every single time...

[freetiago]

not worried about the knicks
spurs havent played an eastern team with anythign resembling a fair schedule
miami was the 4th in 5 nights
new york was tonight
and the other meeting was a home game sandwiched inbetween a huge western road trip and a small eastern road trip

one thing though that new york did that stopped the spurs
switch pick and rolls
hit mid range shots
sound familiar....

[Paranoid Pop]

Agreed. Melo is good but they were treating him like he was LeBron on steroids. Play him straight up and then adjust if he's hot. I can see a different strategy if the Knicks started him at PF but he was at SF ... so just treat him like any other SF. No need to double-team him on the catch from the first possession of the game.

A part of me thinks Pop was just having the team work on their rotations. Doubling Melo and then rotating to cover their deadly three-point shooters is a hell of a drill. It makes little sense if you're trying to actually trying to win the game, though.

Like your optimism...

[Johnny RIngo]

I don't consider it a coincidence that the run happened with Bonner on the floor and Green at the 3 guarding Melo. The bench really missed Jacksons D

Fucking retarded MSG waitress interfering with the game - SA should send an insurance bill to the Knicks.

[ElNono]

I'll add our pick & roll defense was atrocious tonight... that's pretty much all Prigioni knows how to run anyways, and we just sucked

[Richie]

Well said, Pop is so dumb for playing Green at the 3 over and over again when it's an utter failure every single time...

Without Jackson we don't have any other choice. Leonard saw a lot of time on the court and had to rest at some point.

[Richie]

Fucking retarded MSG waitress interfering with the game - SA should send an insurance bill to the Knicks.

Is that what it was? Ridiculous

[Johnny RIngo]

Without Jackson we don't have any other choice. Leonard saw a lot of time on the court and had to rest at some point.

Ginobili's a better option at the 3 than Green.

[ElNono]

Without Jackson we don't have any other choice. Leonard saw a lot of time on the court and had to rest at some point.

But he doesn't. Kid is 21... if there's a player you can run for 40 mins out there, that's Kahwi.... obviously, it could be he's not in tip top shape yet after the injury, but minutes should be the least of the concerns with Kawhi.

[Capt Bringdown]

I love how our team predictably collectively plays like crap when we allforesee fatigue as a factor.
Part of Spurs culture that Spurs players were born tired, a built-in excuse.

[TD 21]

Thought we played Melo pretty well tbh, he only had 13 at half time.

We were still in the game when Duncan and Tony sat in the 3rd, only down 7. We lost it with a 10-0 run in the first 96 seconds of the 4th.

I don't consider it a coincidence that the run happened with Bonner on the floor and Green at the 3 guarding Melo. The bench really missed Jacksons D

It's not about how much he scored, it's about how many open threes he generated/this strategy conceded and about how much more energy that sapped from an already tired team.

Despite what the score may have said throughout more than half the game, the Spurs were never in this game. It was clear from damn near the jump that one solid stretch by the Knicks would put it away.

timvp, given the situation (4-in-5, playing a good team, not having more than a day off upcoming to fully recover) and how obsessed he is with rest to begin with, I doubt he'd have had them practically running suicides just for the hell of it.

More than likely, there is no trade imminent . . . but if there is, I'm predicting Blair/Joseph for Ayon/Smith. Haven't heard anything, just a random thought/prediction.

[Richie]

But he doesn't. Kid is 21... if there's a player you can run for 40 mins out there, that's Kahwi.... obviously, it could be he's not in tip top shape yet after the injury, but minutes should be the least of the concerns with Kawhi.

Hmm, well Leonard had played 27 minutes when he came out in the 3rd with 1:29 left. It would have been a lot to ask him to guard Melo for the entire 2nd half, if the bench had kept it close in the opening minutes of the 4th and we had a chance in the game he would have played close to 38 minutes by leaving in the 3rd and coming back when he did in the 4th.

To keep him in all 2nd half, he'd have to play 42 minutes. In hindsight maybe he could, but it's not a terrible decision to rest him a few minutes either side of the quarter.

[ElNono]

The fatigue factor is real, not only because the Spurs stars are generally older, but also because the Spurs have had a pretty brutal schedule so far. Look at the other teams:

Games played:
OKC - 31 games
Clippers - 33 games
Spurs - 35 games
Memphis - 29 games
Miami - 30 games
Knicks - 32 games
Atlanta - 30 games

It's crazy the Spurs already played 6 more games than Memphis in the same amount of time.

[RD2191]

kawhi cant play 40? okc plays their starters 40 on a nightly basis

[ElNono]

Hmm, well Leonard had played 27 minutes when he came out in the 3rd with 1:29 left. It would have been a lot to ask him to guard Melo for the entire 2nd half, if the bench had kept it close in the opening minutes of the 4th and we had a chance in the game he would have played close to 38 minutes by leaving in the 3rd and coming back when he did in the 4th.

To keep him in all 2nd half, he'd have to play 42 minutes. In hindsight maybe he could, but it's not a terrible decision to rest him a few minutes either side of the quarter.

Melo played 36 mins... play him when Melo plays... If Melo ends up playing 40, there's no reason Kawhi can't play 40... the problem is that Green can't guard Melo (and a lot of other people). I mean, Kawhi probably can't guard Melo successfully all the time either, but he's likely the best guy we have to throw at him.

[Richie]

kawhi cant play 40? okc plays their starters 40 on a nightly basis

It's not about playing 40, it's about playing an unplanned 40 due to Jacksons injury (meaning a 24 minute second half) on the end of a 4-in-5, after averaging only 26 min/game all season and only recently coming off an injury.

[Strategic]

Struggled handling the ball. Struggled passing it. Struggled shooting. Struggled defending. Out of sync.



I don't see any mystery as to when this game slipped through the Spurs fingers. It wasn't a whole game failure. The game was lost from the 2nd half of the third quarter on. During this period Neal and Diaw had their heads in their asses, Manu disappeared, Bonner couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and Blair didn't help a damn bit(lol). Oh, and Tiago got schooled in the low post. It's also tiresome seeing everyone use "the big three needed to be rested" as a blanket excuse every time the Spurs lose.

[diego]

Making Prigioni, a borderline NBA player, look like Jason Kidd in his prime was unexpected though.

you're exaggerating. if anything Ive been surprised that he has adapted quite well IMO. He runs the offense and despite not having an NBA body is disruptive on D, for a 3rd string pg he's good, for a backup he is decent. IMO he fits the jacque vaughn mold well- few mistakes, steady, knows his job, not a liability on either end of the court. easily worth his contract; if I thought pop would play him, i'd rather have him than mills or joseph when neal's shot is MIA.

[playblair]

the spurs desperatly need a back up pg ...... its time to call up cojo & send de colo too d league ..... cojo is a true natural pg

[ElNono]

you're exaggerating. if anything Ive been surprised that he has adapted quite well IMO. He runs the offense and despite not having an NBA body is disruptive on D, for a 3rd string pg he's good, for a backup he is decent. IMO he fits the jacque vaughn mold well- few mistakes, steady, knows his job, not a liability on either end of the court. easily worth his contract; if I thought pop would play him, i'd rather have him than mills or joseph when neal's shot is MIA.

If you're telling me he's a good 3rd string PG, then you're saying what I said: He's a borderline NBA player. Don't know many of those that drop 9 dimes, 3 steals and 0 turnovers. Fact is, he's averaging 2.8 assists/game. When he gets 3x as much, something else is going on.

[phxspurfan]

I just rewatched the game and found 3 things:

1. The Knicks brought their A+ game. Like many teams do, they wanted to beat the Spurs and brought playoff type intensity. Nothing shows that more than the play of Prigioni and the alley oop reverse dunk by JR Smith. They wanted this one more, no doubt about it.

2. The Knicks shot well. And the Spurs didn't read or didn't have a good scouting report on the Knicks. They are an outstanding three point shooting team and cannot be left open. So what happened? Guys like Novak were left wide open on several occasions while doubling on guys like Prigioni. That's a recipe for a loss.

3. The Spurs didn't being their A game. This Knicks team has the weapons to challenge the Heat in the LEast. They are legit and if the Spurs are to beat them, they (and their role players) need to play hard and smart, and have the engine running on all cylinders. And still, it would be a game.

4. Speaking of Prigioni, he and Kidd are Exactly what this Knicks team needs: veteran leadership and unselfish PG play. I can't wait until Shumpert and Felton come back, because like Westbrick, they make their teams worse, not better. Prigioni and his veteran (albeit scrub) leadership running the show make the Knicks offense run smoother. Like that scrub playing alongside Allen Iverson all those years, I forget his name.

[phxspurfan]

If you're telling me he's a good 3rd string PG, then you're saying what I said: He's a borderline NBA player. Don't know many of those that drop 9 dimes, 3 steals and 0 turnovers. Fact is, he's averaging 2.8 assists/game. When he gets 3x as much, something else is going on.

So you're saying he's on the drugs.

[ElNono]

So you're saying he's on the drugs.

Pretty much, tbh

[phxspurfan]

the spurs desperatly need a back up pg ...... its time to call up cojo & send de colo too d league ..... cojo is a true natural pg

Agreed. If I see any more Neal running backup PG, I don't know what I'm gonna do.




(Probably nothing, but still. Select a new backup PG please, Pop.)

[Hoops Czar]

The fatigue factor is real, not only because the Spurs stars are generally older, but also because the Spurs have had a pretty brutal schedule so far. Look at the other teams:
Games played:
OKC - 31 games
Clippers - 33 games
Spurs - 35 games
Memphis - 29 games
Miami - 30 games
Knicks - 32 games
Atlanta - 30 games
It's crazy the Spurs already played 6 more games than Memphis in the same amount of time.

You can blame it on fatigue, but the Spurs dealt with fatigue just fine last year. No, this team just struggles against elite competition. They lost twice to the Knicks, twice to the Clippers, beat Memphis but had to come from 14 down in the final quarter to do so, split with OKC thanks to Parker's heroics, split with Portland, but needed a monster 4th quarter in the first meeting and beat the Lakers in a very sloppy affair thanks to Green's heroics. They're already relying to heavily on the big three this year as opposed to last year and the depth just isn't very consistent right now.

[Dr. Robert Lee]

Neal isn't a bad player, but he's a bad point guard. It's just the way it is. He jacks up a lot of heroes, which is okay. He's a good shooter and that's his thing. He's a volume shooter. However, we don't need a volume shooter playing point guard. That's not going to work. We need someone that can take care of the basketball and make plays for others. In my opinion, Nando, with some work, is that guy. I don't have a problem with Neal getting some minutes at the 2. He's okay there, even though he's not been very good this season, but he should not in any way, shape, or form play backup point guard. There's really only two point guards on this team and those are Tony and Nando. Shouldn't they get the nod at PG?

[Ice009]

kawhi cant play 40? okc plays their starters 40 on a nightly basis

Bruce Bowen used to play a lot of minutes even into his thirties. How in the heck can a 21 year old not even play 30-35 on a consistent basis? What is Pop smoking. You don't need to rest Kawhi, you need to play him because he still has a lot to improve upon. He's not going to improve his weakest areas sitting on the bench.

I'd say Spurs need to put quite a few players on the trade block. We've got too many players that are taking up roster spots that don't really contribute much.

Spurs need to get a backup SF and a backup PF/C. The exact same things that they needed before the season started, they need now. Why these holes have still not been addressed is beyond me. Piss poor roster management from the alleged drunk driver RC Buford.

[Paranoid Pop]

Bruce Bowen used to play a lot of minutes even into his thirties. How in the heck can a 21 year old not even play 30-35 on a consistent basis? What is Pop smoking. You don't need to rest Kawhi, you need to play him because he still has a lot to improve upon. He's not going to improve his weakest areas sitting on the bench.

I'd say Spurs need to put quite a few players on the trade block. We've got too many players that are taking up roster spots that don't really contribute much.

Spurs need to get a backup SF and a backup PF/C. The exact same things that they needed before the season started, they need now. Why these holes have still not been addressed is beyond me. Piss poor roster management from the alleged drunk driver RC Buford.

Couldn't agree more, KY not playing these kind of minutes show that there's something wrong with Pop's rotations and his way of thinking, for some reason he's obsessed with depth and midgets, none of these things are known to really help win championships...

Trade Sjax the tosb, a likable tosb but a tosb none the less for a big, we're trying to win a championship here... or are we... We need another big even if we have to take back a bad contract to get it, who cares, it's all about now. Besides the bad contract wouldn't translate in a free agent signing in the off season since we'd have to resigning Sjax if we don't trade him now, so really it doesn't matter.

Choose a backup PG who can handle full court pressure, be it Joseph if Pop wants Manu to remain in the second unit no matter what... And pack some of the other midgets with Sjax.

[Ice009]

Who would you put on the trade block?

Blair
Bonner
Mills
Neal (only because Pop won't stop playing him at the backup PG)
De Colo
Jax

would be my trade bait. I wasn't planning on putting Jax on that list, but his piss poor performances lately (along with his salary) are making me think about it.

[Richie]

Would be silly to trade Jackson this season for another big contract when we have a lot of cap flexibility this summer and a number of good big men hitting the market.

With a cap hold of only $7.5m, we can give Splitter a market value contract ($10m~) AND sign another big man for $10m, while keeping Manu at MLE level which he will hopefully be willing to take.

We won't get a player that will improve us using the players listed above in a trade.

[will_spurs]

If you're telling me he's a good 3rd string PG, then you're saying what I said: He's a borderline NBA player. Don't know many of those that drop 9 dimes, 3 steals and 0 turnovers. Fact is, he's averaging 2.8 assists/game. When he gets 3x as much, something else is going on.

He's still far from Kidd in his prime. First of all he got 2 steals in a row on inbound passes to Neal.. which just shows how bad Neal is overall, and how carelessly the Spurs were playing yesterday. I don't know where Neal's head and thoughts were last night, but certainly not in the MSG. Second I didn't feel Prigioni was the issue, nor that he was playing at such an extraordinary level. JR Smith on the other hand...

Compound that with Novak hitting 5 of 7 from the 3 and Bonner shooting 0% and then we've got a problem. Prigioni is an afterthought.

[polandprzem]

Pop should let bench to play more. Esp De colo and Mills and Bonner. He wanted to win game on a normal rotation. And in a game like this 4th in 5 nights and on a road it was tough for players to have the concentration throughout the game.

Oh well


But damn I'm worried a bit the spurs are losing to the elite teams again.

[Brunodf]

Pop should let bench to play more. Esp De colo and Mills and Bonner. He wanted to win game on a normal rotation. And in a game like this 4th in 5 nights and on a road it was tough for players to have the concentration throughout the game.

Oh well


But damn I'm worried a bit the spurs are losing to the elite teams again.


:lol

[spurspokesman]

F for neal kawhi and ginobilli. Ditto bonner.

[TDMVPDPOY]

some of you clowns continue to overrate this pathetic spurs roster...

[ManuTastic]

Schedule loss.
Next...

[polandprzem]

:lol

Even tough he had a bad game it doesn't necessary means that he would have one coming off the bench in a different role.
He actually was put in a pressure cooker situation, as a savior. He does not like that kind of role

[superbigtime]

I don't know why Pop expects Manu to continue to carry the bench without one of the other Big 2 out there. He can't anymore on a consistent basis and just can't produce like he used to without turning the ball over a thousand times.


He's the leader of the bench. But I do hate seeing Manu playing late minutes when the game is in the bag (or in the toilet like last night).

[superbigtime]

Like that scrub playing alongside Allen Iverson all those years, I forget his name.

eric snow --

[SpurYank]

Hmm, our ninth loss. We can lose 3 times this many and win over 50 games for the 14th straight season. Unprecedented!
I have had days at work when I couldn't have earned a D-, but I still gave it all I had. I think the Spurs always do. Pop wouldn't allow anything else.