Trillion Dollar Coin

[spursncowboys]

So I heard it on Rush and could not believe it was true.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/rage-against-the-coin/

Make a Trillion dollar coin, deposit it into the Fed.

WTF!!

[DMC]

Sounds good to me. I'm tired of hearing about it. Does that mean I can do the same and not pay taxes?

[Drachen]

This idea came up the when they were doing the debt ceiling dance in august of 2011 too. (I believe the idea predates that as well).

[Drachen]

Sounds good to me. I'm tired of hearing about it. Does that mean I can do the same and not pay taxes?

unfortunately you don't have the authority to mint any denomination of coin like the treasury secretary.

[mavs>spurs]

A money tree!!!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm the former Mint director and Treasury chief of staff who, with Rep. Mike Castle, wrote the platinum coin law and produced the coin authorized by the law. Therefore, I'm in a unique position to address some confusion I've seen in the media about the $1 trillion platinum coin proposal.

* In minting the platinum coin, the Treasury Secretary would be exercising authority which Congress has granted routinely for more than 220 years. The Secretary's authority is derived from an Act of Congress (in fact, a GOP Congress) under power expressly granted to Congress in the Constitution (Article 1, Section 8).

* What is unusual about the law (Sec. 5112 of title 31, United States Code) is that it gives the Secretary complete discretion regarding all specifications of the coin, including denominations.

* Moreover, the accounting treatment of the coin is identical to the treatment of all other coins. The Mint strikes the coin, ships it to the Fed, books $1 trillion, and transfers $1 trillion to the treasury's general fund where it is available to finance government operations just like with proceeds of bond sales or additional tax revenues. The same applies for a quarter dollar.

* Once the debt limit is raised, the Fed ships the coin back to the Mint, the accounting treatment is reversed, and the coin is melted. The coin would never be "issued" or circulated and bonds would not be needed to back the coin.

* There are no negative macroeconomic effects. This works just like additional tax revenue or borrowing under a higher debt limit. In fact, when the debt limit is raised, Treasury would sell more bonds, the $1 trillion dollars would be taken off the books, and the coin would be melted.

* This does not raise the debt limit so it can't be characterized as circumventing congressional authority over the debt limit. Rather, it delays when the debt limit is reached.

* This preserves congressional authority over the debt limit in a way that reliance on the 14th Amendment would not. It also avoids the protracted court battles the 14th Amendment option would entail and avoids another confrontation with the Roberts Court.

* Any court challenge is likely to be quickly dismissed since (1) authority to mint the coin is firmly rooted in law that itself is grounded in the expressed constitutional powers of Congress, (2) Treasury has routinely exercised this authority since the birth of the republic, and (3) the accounting treatment of the coin is entirely routine.

* Yes, this is an unintended consequence of the platinum coin bill, but how many other pieces of legislation have had unintended consequences? Most, I'd guess.

Philip N. Diehl 35th Director United States Mint en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_N._Diehl

[DMC]

This is Hitler like shit. All these "no political red tape" stories are basically saying these "leaders" are no longer in check by any other branch. Hey, it's an emergency, let's bypass the BoR and just do this quickly, leave your doors unlocked so we don't have to kick them down, and don't interfere with the officers when they take things. It's for the common good.

[ElNono]

Darn, there goes that leverage...

[Winehole23]

This is Hitler like shit. All these "no political red tape" stories are basically saying these "leaders" are no longer in check by any other branch. Hey, it's an emergency, let's bypass the BoR and just do this quickly, leave your doors unlocked so we don't have to kick them down, and don't interfere with the officers when they take things. It's for the common good.it's not going to happen, but it is fun watching board conservatives melt down over the prospect.

[Winehole23]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/01/economics-platinum-coin-option

[boutons_deux]

Better than a coin trick, Barry should just IGNORE THE BOGUS LIMIT as is the Exec's Constitutional right, and fuck the tea bagging Repug Congress hard and deep.

[Winehole23]

Barry should just IGNORE THE BOGUS LIMIT as is the Exec's Constitutional rightcite?

[boutons_deux]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Faith_and_Credit_Clause

[Winehole23]

related to relations between the states. how do you get from there to relations between the executive and legislative branches?

[Winehole23]

(I'm a little surprised boutons does not find Section 4 of the 14th Amendment in his blue team RSS feed.)

[Winehole23]

then again, boutons seldom descends to the granular level; much prefers glittering generalities.

[boutons_deux]

related to relations between the states. how do you get from there to relations between the executive and legislative branches?

"full faith and credit" of the USA to guarantee its debts to anybody, like SS administration, the 1% that dominates T-bond holdings. The Repug Congress attempts to arbitrarily limit the US debt (after they increased the debt by killing tax revenues) is threat to the "full faith and credit" of the USA.

[DMC]

it's not going to happen, but it is fun watching board conservatives melt down over the prospect.

It's more fun to watch the forum slamholes get dragged into the fray.

[boutons_deux]

btw, St Ronnie the Diseased and his Repug assholes switched the USA from "tax and spend" to (cut taxes on the wealthy, corporations,) "borrow and spend", part of the VRWC strategy to increase the US debt, then Fix-The-Debt by screwing the 99%.

[TeyshaBlue]

then again, boutons seldom descends to the granular level; much prefers glittering generalities.

glittering would be an improvement.

[Winehole23]

"full faith and credit" of the USA to guarantee its debts to anybody, like SS administration, the 1% that dominates T-bond holdings. The Repug Congress attempts to arbitrarily limit the US debt (after they increased the debt by killing tax revenues) is threat to the "full faith and credit" of the USA.^^^pseudo-logical, ungrammatical and just plain pitiful

[Winehole23]

It's more fun to watch the forum slamholes get dragged into the fray.dragged? I doubt it. posting is and remains optional, but your meltdown was plain to see.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I stopped at 'I heard it on Rush...'

[EVAY]

it's not going to happen, but it is fun watching board conservatives melt down over the prospect.

This. I was about to get upset myself until I heard, days ago, that the WH has already said that they weren't going to do it.

So all the drama about it is merely that.

[boutons_deux]

Validity of public debtSection 4 confirmed the legitimacy of all United States public debt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt) appropriated by the Congress. It also confirmed that neither the United States nor any state would pay for the loss of slaves or debts that had been incurred by the Confederacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America). For example, during the Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War) several British and French banks had lent large sums of money to the Confederacy to support its war against the Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_%28American_Civil_War%29).[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion#cite_note-47) In Perry v. United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Clause_Cases) (1935), the Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) ruled that under Section 4 voiding a United States government bond "went beyond the congressional power."[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion#cite_note-48)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion

[Winehole23]

you finally caught up. I don't guess you've heard Obama's lawyers already nixed that option, so that's pretty much moot.

[boutons_deux]

If only Barry would out-crazy the Repugs. It really is the only way to accomplish anything in that face of Repug reflexive obstructionism

[Winehole23]

this is making the rounds today:


Some have suggested, for instance, that the president could ignore the debt ceiling and direct the Treasury to issue more bonds to cover its obligations. But the Constitution is clear, and Mr. Obama agrees, that Congress alone has the power to authorize new borrowing (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/opinion/08tribe.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&).

Other supposed solutions — like the notion that the Treasury Department could create a $1 trillion dollar platinum coin (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/lawyers-coins-and-money/) and deposit it in its own account at the Federal Reserve — are even more fantastical.

However, there is a plausible course of action, one that the president should publicly adopt in the coming weeks as his contingency plan should debt-ceiling negotiations falter. He should threaten to issue scrip — “registered warrants” — to existing claims holders (other than those who own actual government debt) in lieu of money. Recipients of these I.O.U.’s could include federal employees, defense contractors, Medicare service providers, Social Security recipients and others.

The scrip would not violate (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/3101) the debt ceiling because it wouldn’t constitute a new borrowing of money backed by the credit of the United States. It would merely be a formal acknowledgment of a pre-existing monetary claim against the United States that the Treasury was not currently able to pay. The president could therefore establish a scrip program by executive order without piling a constitutional crisis on top of a fiscal one.

To avoid any confusion with actual Treasury debt, and to be consistent with the law governing claims against the United States more generally, the scrip would not pay interest in most cases. And unlike debt, it would have no fixed maturity date but rather would become redeemable in cash only when the secretary of the Treasury was able to certify that there’s enough money available in the Treasury’s general fund to cover it.

Finally, the scrip would be transferable, allowing financial institutions to buy it at a high percentage of its face value, knowing that the political crisis would almost certainly be resolved before long.

The federal Anti-Assignment Act (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/3727) generally prohibits the transfer of claims against the United States from one private actor to another, but the government could waive the act’s application, which is what the president would do here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/opinion/an-escape-hatch-for-the-debt-ceiling.html?_r=0

[EVAY]

Well, the Scrip idea is undoubtedly better than the idiotic coin idea, and I am in favor of not letting Tea Partiers hold the nation's debt rating hostage to their idea of what debt reduction would be, but I still think that the Scrip notion would be seen as little more than a gimmick internationally, and would once again shine a bright light on the horrid position of our dysfunctional government.

What is stopping the House Republicans from putting forth a debt reduction program right this minute that could work its way through the senate and joint congressional committees before the ceiling is hit, put that bill on the President's desk, and dare him to veto it?!

I agree with Obama that the congress passed laws enabling this debt, therefore they should be willing to pay for the bills that they themselves ran up.

But I also agree that this congress has an opportunity to come up with a fair proposition. I don't think that they have the mental or emotional willingness to make it truly fair, but if they did that, the American people would rally behind them, I think.

We all know that we have to get spending under control. They could actually do something good rather than just make Tea-Party political talking points if they set their minds to it.

[Winehole23]

If only Barry would out-crazy the Repugs. It really is the only way to accomplish anything in that fast of Repug reflexive obstructionismif there's any point to declining to rule out the trillion dollar coin, perhaps it has something to do with that. still, it's hard to see the upside. actually doing it would be too damaging politically.

[boutons_deux]

"in the face of ..."

all non-Repug/Fox polls show the Repugs being blamed primarily for DC gridlock. Bitch-slapping them with Exec Constitutional powers would get a coast-to-coast huge cheer (minus some red flyover wastelands).

[scott]

Hilariously, FoxNews and the RNC apparently are unfamiliar with how coins work.

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance/1357853457884.png.CROP.article568-large.png

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance.html?original_referrer=htt p%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FnXLuqiZh

[scott]

For the sake of humanity, I wish that were fake. But alas, no.

[SnakeBoy]

For the sake of humanity, I wish that were fake. But alas, no.

Probably done by a paulbot who thought it would be like going back to the gold standard only with more benefits like free access to airport lounges.

[ElNono]

For the sake of humanity, I wish that were fake. But alas, no.

How many Orca Whales is that though?

[Wild Cobra]

Hilariously, FoxNews and the RNC apparently are unfamiliar with how coins work.

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance/1357853457884.png.CROP.article568-large.png

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance.html?original_referrer=htt p%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FnXLuqiZh
Actually, looks like they were putting a trillion dollars in to perspective. However, I get 21,412 tons with platinum at $1,624/troy oz.

[Winehole23]

not gonna happen. hope you're havin fun.

[scott]

Actually, looks like they were putting a trillion dollars in to perspective. However, I get 21,412 tons with platinum at $1,624/troy oz.

Actually, looks like you're still an idiot.

[boutons_deux]

Head Of House Republican Group Is Okay With U.S. Default (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/01/11/1434091/rsc-head-debt-ceiling/)


RSC Chairman Steve Scalise (R-La.) said Obama should pledge to avoid defaulting on Treasury bond payments once the Treasury Department no longer has the means to avoid exceeding the $16.4 trillion debt ceiling.

“The fact that we continue hitting the debt ceiling is a symptom of Washington’s spending problem, and hitting the debt ceiling does not immediately trigger a default,” Scalise said. “The Treasury Secretary has an obligation to preserve the credit rating of the United States and should pledge to continue making necessary interest payments to avoid default.”

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/01/11/1434091/rsc-head-debt-ceiling/

[DarrinS]

Hilariously, FoxNews and the RNC apparently are unfamiliar with how coins work.

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance/1357853457884.png.CROP.article568-large.png

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance.html?original_referrer=htt p%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FnXLuqiZh


About as ridiculous as the trillion dollar coin idea, tbh.

[boutons_deux]

About as ridiculous as the trillion dollar coin idea, tbh.

typical accurate, intellectual stimulating garbage from Fox. Bubbas and red-states suck it down as Gospel truth, like they do in Bible class.

[Winehole23]

Then there are three possible options to choose from: ignoring the debt ceiling and continuing to issue new public debt; minting platinum coins; and a third option which has yet to be discussed but may be the simplest and most politically powerful option — borrowing from the Social Security Trust Fund.

Read More At IBD: http://news.investors.com/blogs-capital-hill/011013-640025-mint-platinum-or-tap-social-security.htm#ixzz2HhMMGGdn

[TeyshaBlue]

Oh, Hell No!

[LnGrrrR]

Hilariously, FoxNews and the RNC apparently are unfamiliar with how coins work.

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance/1357853457884.png.CROP.article568-large.png

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/10/fox_news_coin_ignorance.html?original_referrer=htt p%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FnXLuqiZh


:lmao :lmao :lmao

Holy fuck, if I watched Fox News I would be ashamed.

[LnGrrrR]

Wait a second! I just realized this $20 bill in my pocket should only be worth a few cents, given that it's only made of paper! It's a travesty!

[Wild Cobra]

Actually, looks like you're still an idiot.

If you say so Fuzzy.

[CuckingFunt]

If you say so Fuzzy.

Scott is spelled S-C-O-T-T. Not F-U-Z-Z-Y.

[Wild Cobra]

Scott is spelled S-C-O-T-T. Not F-U-Z-Z-Y.
He sure acts like Fuzzy at times.

[DMC]

Wait a second! I just realized this $20 bill in my pocket should only be worth a few cents, given that it's only made of paper! It's a travesty!

Does make you wonder then why it needs to be made of platinum.

[DMC]

dragged? I doubt it. posting is and remains optional, but your meltdown was plain to see.

Choices are an illusion. You were destined to respond after I dragged you in. You just think you weren't.

[Nbadan]

Krugman: Mint that Coin!


Here’s how it would work: The Treasury would mint a platinum coin with a face value of $1 trillion (or many coins with smaller values; it doesn’t really matter). This coin would immediately be deposited at the Federal Reserve, which would credit the sum to the government’s account. And the government could then write checks against that account, continuing normal operations without issuing new debt.

In case you’re wondering, no, this wouldn’t be an inflationary exercise in printing money. Aside from the fact that printing money isn’t inflationary under current conditions, the Fed could and would offset the Treasury’s cash withdrawals by selling other assets or borrowing more from banks, so that in reality the U.S. government as a whole (which includes the Fed) would continue to engage in normal borrowing. Basically, this would just be an accounting trick, but that’s a good thing. The debt ceiling is a case of accounting nonsense gone malignant; using an accounting trick to negate it is entirely appropriate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/opinion/krugman-coins-against-crazies.html?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto&_r=0

[Th'Pusher]

Treasury rules out trillion dollar coin: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/treasury-says-no-to-trillion-dollar-coin-report-86091.html?hp=l1

[Mr. Peabody]

Does make you wonder then why it needs to be made of platinum.

The authority for this stems from a law allowing the issuance of platinum coins in any denomination. It was intended for use to create collector edition coins to raise money for the government.

[Galileo]

Treasury: We won’t mint a platinum coin to sidestep the debt ceiling


The Treasury Department will not mint a trillion-dollar platinum coin to get around the debt ceiling. If they did, the Federal Reserve would not accept it.

That’s the bottom line of the statement that Anthony Coley, a spokesman for the Treasury Department, gave me today. “Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes that the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins for the purpose of avoiding an increase in the debt limit,” he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/12/treasury-we-wont-mint-a-platinum-coin-to-sidestep-the-debt-ceiling/

[Winehole23]

Oh, Hell No!least worst political option for our distinguished reps?

[Winehole23]

The U.S. Treasury Department will not mint a high-value platinum coin to avert the debt ceiling, according to an official statement from the Obama administration obtained by the Huffington Post on Saturday.

"Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes that the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins for the purpose of avoiding an increase in the debt limit," the statement reads.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/obama-platinum-coin_n_2458379.html

[Winehole23]

During the 2011 debt limit standoff, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner publicly suggested invoking the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which states that, "The validity of the public debt ... shall not be questioned." Obama, however, rejected the move, saying that the White House legal team did not believe that the 14th Amendment was a viable legal option for averting default.same

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He sure acts like Fuzzy at times.

No I am much more confrontational, rude and generally mean-spirited towards those I feel contempt for and/or stupidity. I don't suffer fools and you are probably the single biggest fool I have ever encountered. As I told you, quit being an ignoramus and I will start being nicer.

[Wild Cobra]

Poor Fuzzy Wuzzy. Has to brag about being a wannabe alpha ass.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Poor Fuzzy Wuzzy. Has to brag about being a wannabe alpha ass.

How is that alpha? I don't claim dominance over anything. I am arrogant as to my intelligence certainly but that does not make me dominant over another individual.

[Wild Cobra]

How is that alpha? I don't claim dominance over anything. I am arrogant as to my intelligence certainly but that does not make me dominant over another individual.
You have not earned your arrogance.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You have not earned your arrogance.

How would you know what I have or have not earned? Or are you claiming that you have the capacity to determine something like that?

[Trainwreck2100]

why does it have to be a platinum coin?

[LnGrrrR]

why does it have to be a platinum coin?

Because the law loophole they're using specified platinum.

Plus, it's balla. You know the first black pres would t have it made of any other material, except maybe Dolomite.

[Wild Cobra]

I think if such a large value coin is to be minted, it needs to be made of unobtanium.

[Wild Cobra]

How would you know what I have or have not earned? Or are you claiming that you have the capacity to determine something like that?
It is simply that you are notable wrong too often to have earned being arrogant. Only those who earn arrogance wear it well. You do not wear it well at all. I see you more like a raging egomaniac rather than being arrogant anyway.

When you earn your arrogance, it is pride. When you don't, it is hubris, or egomania.

[DarrinS]

Jon Stewart mocks trillion dollar coin idea

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-january-10-2013/the-trillion-dollar-coin



Kruggers not pleased

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/14/paul-krugman-jon-stewart_n_2468934.html

[Th'Pusher]

Jon Stewart mocks trillion dollar coin idea

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-january-10-2013/the-trillion-dollar-coin



Kruggers not pleased

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/14/paul-krugman-jon-stewart_n_2468934.html
DarrinS's obsession with Krugman continues, but he now using a pseudonym for him so that the posts don't show up in WH's DarrinS Paul Krugman post count obsession report.

[boutons_deux]

Barry said this morning he simply won't negotiate the debt ceiling. repeated it many times. Used the word ransom several times.

So the Repugs can shut down the govt for all he cares, and the REPUGS, esp the nihilist tea baggers, can take all the justified blame.

Barry refuses to deficit reduction to debt ceiling. He's tired of these stupid, avoidable debt ceiling showdowns and crises as the Repugs' attempt to "govern" :lol

[DarrinS]

Barry said this morning he simply won't negotiate the debt ceiling. repeated it many times. Used the word ransom several times.

So the Repugs can shut down the govt for all he cares, and the REPUGS, esp the nihilist tea baggers, can take all the justified blame.

Barry refuses to deficit reduction to debt ceiling. He's tired of these stupid, avoidable debt ceiling showdowns and crises as the Repugs' attempt to "govern" :lol






The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

[boutons_deux]

"our Government’s reckless fiscal policies."

like starting and botching 2 unfunded wars
cutting taxes on the wealthy and corps, and in fact on everybody
unfunded Medicare Part D, Medicare Advantage, and forbidding govt from negotiating prices down with BigPharma

Barry was bitching about reckless fiscal SPENDING AND TAXING problems of the Repugs, all of which tripled the debt under dubya.

Thanks for the quote, extremely useful to bitch slap you with.

[Drachen]

Barry said this morning he simply won't negotiate the debt ceiling. repeated it many times. Used the word ransom several times.

So the Repugs can shut down the govt for all he cares, and the REPUGS, esp the nihilist tea baggers, can take all the justified blame.

Barry refuses to deficit reduction to debt ceiling. He's tired of these stupid, avoidable debt ceiling showdowns and crises as the Repugs' attempt to "govern" :lol

I like your optimism and all, but the reason that we have all of this brinksmanship is because BO is weak willed. This all started when he negotiated (with himself) on Obamacare. When that didn't work (to bring the republicans to the table), he passed the watered down negotiated plan anyway instead of passing something with a public option. If he would have stood up straight and passed his original plan, the others would have found that they would have to play ball. Now they know that they can just wait it out until he caves.

[spursncowboys]

why does it have to be a platinum coin?
The value is not regulated and there is a larger abundance of it. To do it with say gold would cost us a trillion

[spursncowboys]

Jon Stewart mocks trillion dollar coin idea

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-january-10-2013/the-trillion-dollar-coin



Kruggers not pleased

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/14/paul-krugman-jon-stewart_n_2468934.html
What do you expect from a sci-fi writer

[boutons_deux]

I like your optimism and all, but the reason that we have all of this brinksmanship is because BO is weak willed. This all started when he negotiated (with himself) on Obamacare. When that didn't work (to bring the republicans to the table), he passed the watered down negotiated plan anyway instead of passing something with a public option. If he would have stood up straight and passed his original plan, the others would have found that they would have to play ball. Now they know that they can just wait it out until he caves.

I agree mostly.

He assumed, horribly erroneously, that he was negotiating with good-faith Repugs.

If Barry had stuck with the public option, which he still could do, the health care industry would have Harry-and-Louised it, and him, to a lifeless pulp, no ACA would have been passed at all.

He's needs to go CRAZY PISSED OFF NIGGA on the Repugs and get some good shit done, like a public option, and Executive Order to move mj from Schedule I to Schedule V, as step to full legalization with no Federal enforcement. Same for Hemp, full legalization.

[Drachen]

He doesn't have it in him. He just isn't that guy.

[Winehole23]

defining government spending as axiomatically unproductive has its problems (see R&D, especially medical research,) but I was tolerably persuaded by this. that raising the debt ceiling has been pro forma is no good argument that it should continue to be.

http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/13/against-government-debt

[Winehole23]

How Republicans shut down government matters, though. Failing to raise the debt ceiling would probably trigger panic in the markets. A more politically opportune time would be to deal with this when the government's general operating budget expires. Seeing as Senate Democrats have been unable to produce a budget for years—and not a single politician has voted for an Obama budget—Republicans have a case to make about responsible governing.http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/10/can-republicans-win-a-government-shutdow

[Winehole23]

The United States could lose its top credit rating for the second time from a leading agency if there’s a delay in raising the country’s debt ceiling, Fitch Ratings warned Tuesday.from the AP

[Winehole23]

The powerful Financial Services Roundtable — which is headed by former GOP presidential candidate Tim Pawlenty and represents nearly 100 of the largest financial service firms in the country — is set to increase pressure on Congress to raise the debt limit, warning that failure to do so will make the markets go “haywire.”

“We are in favor of raising it, and we will be encouraging policy makers to increase it,” Scott Talbott, the senior vice president for public policy for the Financial Services Roundtable, told me today. He added that the group was gearing up to communicate the demand for action to Congress, an effort that could include sending letters to every member. “We will communicate with the entire Congress,” he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/01/09/business-leaders-failure-to-raise-debt-ceiling-will-drive-markets-haywire/

[Winehole23]

business lobby piling on, not that that should make much difference to the rank and file in the House.

[Winehole23]

Oh, Hell No!http://news.investors.com/011413-640515-new-social-security-retirees-will-outlive-official-trust-fund.aspx?src=HPLNews

[Winehole23]

counterintuitive at first blush, but plausible


To cut spending, raise the debt limit A better strategy for House Republicans to force some spending cuts on a President who doesn’t want them looks like this.




Rely first on the sequester, second on the CR, and last on the debt limit as leverage.
On the debt limit, state loudly and repeatedly a simple principle: We will pay our bills on time and we will cut future spending. Rather than being against a debt limit increase unless it also cuts spending, say that you’re for a debt limit increase that also cuts spending. You’re the legislative branch, you control what’s in the law. Act as leaders doing the right thing, rather than as rebels trying to block President Obama and Congressional Democratic spenders from doing the wrong thing.
Agree with the President that we must pay our bills, and politely smile and say “And we’re going to cut spending, too.” Make him argue against cutting spending, rather than giving him the opportunity to attack you for risking financial disaster.
Pass a bill out of the House that raises the debt limit and cuts spending. Make it a short-term extension, maybe 3-6 months, and cut spending by a similarly modest amount.
Take whatever big spending cuts you want and make them conditions of extending the Continuing Resolution. Threaten to shut down the government rather than to make the government risk not paying its bills on time. It’s a less damaging and therefore more credible threat.
Propose specific entitlement spending cuts to substitute for the sequester cuts you don’t like (presumably in defense). On this one sit and wait for Democratic nondefense appropriators to panic. You won’t have to wait long.
Publicly state your willingness to agree to (and vote for) a longer-term debt limit increase as soon as the President is willing to cut spending a lot or at least to commit to a credible long-term fiscal path. If he won’t, state that you will repeat step 3 as often as needed.
If the President threatens to veto your short-term debt limit increase + spending cuts, then tell him you’ll allow House Democrats to pass a clean short-term debt limit extension, but they’ll all have to vote for it, every three months or so. Watch the ensuing panic in the House Democratic caucus with amusement.

http://keithhennessey.com/2013/01/14/raise-and-cut/

[Winehole23]

There are three key strategic premises upon which this strategy relies:



Leverage to cut spending is best implemented through the sequester and CR more than through the debt limit.
Leverage on the debt limit can be created only by being for the right kind of debt limit increase (short-term and with spending cuts), and not by threatening to block any increase. The more responsible policy path is also the one that generates more negotiating leverage, albeit in an incremental way.
A smart debt limit strategy allows the President an opportunity to get his clean debt limit increase, but only for a short timeframe and only at great political cost to his own party in Congress. This is what creates leverage, not threatening to let the house burn down.

same

[Winehole23]

Hennessey's point about payment prioritization being at the President's discretion in the event of technical default (as distinguished from defaulting on sovereign debt) is the achilles heel of the apparent GOP strategy. If the government shuts down over a debt ceiling impasse, the president can halt payments to various constituencies and credibly (though perhaps not persuasively) blame the GOP for it.

[boutons_deux]

Barry framed it great yesterday. USA has to pay its obligations, period. He won't yield to Repugs trying to extort unnamed austerity cuts.

[Winehole23]

Keith Hennessey has sketched a credible route past Obama's intransigence, if the GOP is savvy enough to adopt it. remains to be seen if they are or not.

[boutons_deux]

In a pinch, the Treasury could issue IOUs to the nation’s creditors — guarantees they’ll be paid eventually. But there’s no indication that’s Obama’s game plan, either.

So it must be that he’s counting on public pressure — especially from the GOP’s patrons on Wall Street and big business — to force Republicans into submission.

That’s probably the reason for the unexpected news conference, coming at least a month before the nation is likely to have difficulty paying its bills.

The timing may be right. President is riding a wave of post-election popularity. Gallup (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-approval-ratings-hit-3-year-high-56-article-1.1225013)shows him with a 56 percent approval rating, the highest in three years. By contrast, Republicans are in the pits (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/01/images-of-nra-congressional-republicans-on-the-decline.html). John Boehner has a 21% approval and 60% disapproval. And Mitch McConnell’s approval is at 24%. Not even GOP voters seem to like Republican lawmakers in Washington, with 25% approving and 61% disapproving.

And Americans remember the summer of 2011 when the GOP held hostage the debt ceiling, bringing the nation close to a default and resulting in a credit-rating downgrade and financial turmoil that slowed the recovery. The haggling hurt the GOP more than it did Democrats or the President.

But Obama’s strategy depends on there being enough sane voices left in the GOP to influence others.

That’s far from clear.

http://robertreich.org/post/40545259057

[CosmicCowboy]

Barry framed it great yesterday. USA has to pay its obligations, period. He won't yield to Repugs trying to extort unnamed austerity cuts.

He has no intention of ever cutting spending. He knows the wheels won't come completely off until after his term is up and it will be someone else's problem. Every family in the US now owes like $143,000 on the national debt.

[DarrinS]

Lol. Jon Stewart -- Paul Krugman & the Trillion Dollar Coin, part 2.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/

[boutons_deux]

Coburn: Not Raising the Debt Ceiling 'Might be a Wonderful Experiment'It might be a wonderful experiment, regardless who wins the next election or not, just to see if we could live on the money that’s coming into the Treasury and not have to borrow against the future of our children.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/coburn-not-raising-debt-ceiling-might-be-a-wonderful-experiment

:lol right wingers, esp protected by BigOil, are dumb as shit

[CosmicCowboy]

Coburn: Not Raising the Debt Ceiling 'Might be a Wonderful Experiment'It might be a wonderful experiment, regardless who wins the next election or not, just to see if we could live on the money that’s coming into the Treasury and not have to borrow against the future of our children.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/coburn-not-raising-debt-ceiling-might-be-a-wonderful-experiment

:lol right wingers, esp protected by BigOil, are dumb as shit

Pot, meet kettle

[DarrinS]

Hey, CC. I posted a question about your sous vide machine in The Club. Wanted to see if you use something to circulate the water.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hey, CC. I posted a question about your sous vide machine in The Club. Wanted to see if you use something to circulate the water.

I bought a little high temperature low voltage pump but haven't used it yet. Quite honestly I haven't felt the need for it as all the meat I have done from a dozen steaks at a time to 10# roasts seems to cook evenly.

[DarrinS]

I bought a little high temperature low voltage pump but haven't used it yet. Quite honestly I haven't felt the need for it as all the meat I have done from a dozen steaks at a time to 10# roasts seems to cook evenly.


I was considering a 12v windshield washer pump that I had laying around, but it sounds like it is completely unnecessary.

[boutons_deux]

Republicans Accuse Obama of Using Position as President to Lead Country

Responding to reports that President Obama is considering signing as many as nineteen executive orders on gun control, Republicans in Congress unleashed a blistering attack on him today, accusing Mr. Obama of “cynically and systematically using his position as President to lead the country.”

Spearheading the offensive was Rep. Steve Stockman (R-Texas), who charged the President with the “wanton exploitation of powers that are legally granted to him under the U.S. Constitution.”

Calling him the “Law Professor-in-Chief,” Rep. Stockman accused Mr. Obama of “manipulating a little-known section of the Constitution,” Article II, which outlines the power of the President.

“President Obama looks down the list of all of the powers that are legally his and he’s like a kid in a candy store,” Rep. Stockman said. “It’s nauseating.”

The Texas congressman said that if Mr. Obama persists in executing the office of the Presidency as defined by the Constitution, he could face “impeachment and/or deportation.”

Noting that the President has not yet signed the executive orders on gun control, Rep. Stockman said that he hoped his stern words would serve as a wake-up call to Mr. Obama: “Mr. President, there’s still time for you to get in line.

But if you continue to fulfill the duties of President of the United States that are expressly permitted in the Constitution, you are playing with fire.”

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2013/01/republicans-accuse-obama-of-using-position-as-president-to-lead-country.html#ixzz2I5FvfkgE

[CosmicCowboy]

Those New Yorker bits are just dumb as shit.

[Winehole23]

in this case, accurate as shit. the whole snit over executive orders related to guns amounts to outrage over the executive branch enforcing laws duly passed by Congress. it can hardly be unconstitutional, let alone a high crime or misdemeanor, for the President to faithfully execute laws already on the books.

"we wouldn't need any new gun legislation if they'd just enforce the laws we already have" -- right?

[Winehole23]

*crickets*

[Winehole23]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fdb387d4-5f3b-11e2-be51-00144feab49a.html#ixzz2IGJdcIXB

[boutons_deux]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fdb387d4-5f3b-11e2-be51-00144feab49a.html#ixzz2IGJdcIXB




Financial and UCA masters calling off their rabid attack dogs before the dogs savage the US/world economy with a shutdown.

[Winehole23]

are you sure they can hear their masters' whistle?

[Winehole23]

loud and clear, it would appear:


Sen. John Cornyn (http://www.chron.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22John+Cornyn%22) of Texas, the Republican whip, said in Houston Thursday that Congress will not allow an impasse over raising the debt ceiling to result in the federal government defaulting on its spending obligations.

"We will raise the debt ceiling. We're not going to default on our debt," Cornyn told the Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Houston+Chronicle%22) editorial board.


Cornyn's fellow Republicans, particularly in the House, have been trying to use the issue of the debt ceiling to force President Obama to agree to spending cuts.


Obama has said he will not negotiate on the debt ceiling. He has insisted that if Congress refuses to raise the debt limit, the nation will default on its spending obligations, including veterans benefits and Social Security (http://www.chron.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Social+Security%22) payments.

"I will tell you unequivocally, we're not going to default," Cornyn said Thursday.


House Republicans, meanwhile, meeting at an annual retreat in Williamsburg, Va., told reporters that they are considering a plan to raise the legal borrowing limit for just a few months, postponing the debt-ceiling debate until March.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Cornyn-Congress-will-not-allow-default-4203978.php

[Winehole23]

House Republicans are teeing up a vote this week on a new debt ceiling bill, marking the first legislative battle of President Obama's second term and one that could determine whether the country once again risks default over a political fight.

House leaders, after unveiling the legislation Monday, are planning to hold a vote Wednesday on their plan to allow the government to keep borrowing through May 18.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/21/us-house-to-vote-wednesday-on-raising-debt-limit/?test=latestnews#ixzz2IiTh247I

[Th'Pusher]

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/21/us-house-to-vote-wednesday-on-raising-debt-limit/?test=latestnews#ixzz2IiTh247I


I'll be interested to see how many republicans vote for this.

[Drachen]

Did you see the bullshit provision that makes the voter go "ALRIGHT! FINALLY" then the read the next few words and are like "MOTHER FUCKER WHAT THE FUCK!"

Yes I am talking about the provision that says either chamber which holds up the passing of a budget will not be paid until they do.










Their pay will be held in escrow until they pass a budget and will then be paid to them.

[Winehole23]

I'll be interested to see how many republicans vote for this.presumably Boehner wouldn't schedule the vote if the thought his own caucus would screw him, but stranger things have happened.

[EVAY]

Did you see the bullshit provision that makes the voter go "ALRIGHT! FINALLY" then the read the next few words and are like "MOTHER FUCKER WHAT THE FUCK!"

Yes I am talking about the provision that says either chamber which holds up the passing of a budget will not be paid until they do



Their pay will be held in escrow until they pass a budget and will then be paid to them.


There is a new series of articles on the internet (so therefore it must be true) that the 27th amendment expressly prohibits any congress from doing that during a current session. In other words, if they wanted that to take effect this year, they would have to have passed it in the prior congress.

No doubt this will be debated at length. Some legislators are saying it (varying the pay by denying it until a budget is passed) is clearly contrary to the 27th amendment, others are less sure.

Interesting times.

So many members of congress are so wealthy, how many could it actually hurt?

[Winehole23]

Why did Madison want an amendment governing Congressional pay raises? He knew people didn’t always trust their lawmakers (surprise!). And some lawmakers once in awhile try to benefit from their position (surprise again!). Madison believed lawmakers shouldn’t be able to vote themselves a raise, unless they faced reelection before they actually got the cash. The election would allow voters, in effect, to give a thumbs up-or-down on the raise. Or at least if their particular lawmaker got to benefit from it.




The amendment won some support in the states. Six of the thirteen voted to ratify, but that fell short of the nine needed to put it in the Constitution. So, the ratified amendments took effect, and Madison‘s Amendment, as it’s now called just sat…wherever it is failed amendments go. But all hope was not lost, because the Congress of 1789 did not put a time limit on the ratification process for the first proposed amendments (unlike today).


Decades passed, and Ohio ratified it. Meanwhile, the country continued to grow, meaning the number of states needed to pass the amendment grew too. By 1959, with the admission of Alaska and Hawaii, Madison‘s Amendment needed approval from 31 more states. A pretty daunting figure for an admittedly obscure amendment. But then something happened.


People began to get really pissed at their members of Congress. And the raises they sometimes voted themselves. A retroactive pay raise spurred Wyoming in 1978 to ratify the amendment. Then, during the 1980s, a college student researching it began his own Constitutional crusade, to get the amendment ratified once and for all. (See a real legal authority’s take on this here. (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20020927.html)) Ralph Nader came on board too, and as the effort steamrolled, a 1989 Washington Post article spurred the final push. And so the 27th Amendment came to grace our Constitution.


Has the amendment impacted the lives of most Americans? I think we know the answer. The judicial system is not exactly flooded with cases relating to it. My quick research found just one U.S. Supreme Court issuance that referenced it: a dissent by Justice Stephen Breyer (joined by Scalia and Kennedy) on a denial of certiorari in Williams v. United States (http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/US/535/535.US.911.01-175.html) (535 U.S. 911 [1992], for all you legal geeks).


But I did find a more substantive U.S. Court of Appeals case that dealt with it, Boehner v. Anderson (30 F. 3d 156, 308 U.S. App. D.C. 94 [1994], and yes, the same House Minority Leader John Boehner now often seen on the news saying all those constructive things about our president). Read more at your (http://openjurist.org/30/f3d/156/boehner-v-k-anderson-s-j)leisure, but the gist was that a Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA) for Congress did not violate the amendment because the increase went into effect after an election. Boehner also argued that if that COLA law were constitutional, then a later elimination of the COLA violated the amendment because no election took place between the passing of the later law and the varying (lowering) of his pay. The court punted on that one and did not rule. The whole thing confuses me: Boehner says Congress couldn’t raise his pay with a COLA, but couldn’t take away the most recent COLA either? The court’s decision notes the “seemingly contradictory factual claims of injury.”http://thehistorynerd.wordpress.com/tag/27th-amendment/

[Winehole23]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/23/us-usa-fiscal-idUSBRE90M11F20130123

[boutons_deux]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/23/us-usa-fiscal-idUSBRE90M11F20130123

Like any bully, Repugs folded when Barry called their bluff. Barry hasn't budged, and probably won't in May, so the Repugs will fold again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isfn4OxCPQs