Trade Target: Luc Mbah a Moute

[Bruno]

http://www.nba.com/media/act_luc_mbah_a_moute.jpg
Born: Sep 9, 1986
Height: 6-8
Weight: 230 lbs.
Prior to NBA: UCLA
Years Pro: 4

Info (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/luc_mbah_a_moute/career_stats.html)

[freetiago]

If san antonio could get him we could become an elite defensive team
maybe #1
A parker/ginobili or green/a Moute/Leonard/Duncan lineup can defend the teams with stretch 4s well (OKC/Miami)
and the big lineup with splitter/duncan can defend the clippers/memphis well

really hoping SA gets some deal done with milwaukee
they really want a backup PG/SG and have loads of frontcourt players to trade
Dalembert/Udoh or Mbah a Moute could be possible to get

[Paranoid Pop]

Decent read regarding the bucks and potential trade :

http://www.brewhoop.com/2013/1/14/3874276/milwaukee-bucks-lineup-pyramids-vol-5 (http://www.brewhoop.com/2013/1/14/3874276/milwaukee-bucks-lineup-pyramids-vol-5)

I'm not they're gonna make any move at all tbh, also Mbah a Moute is never mentioned is potential trades...

[freetiago]

Mbah a Moute was a skiles favorite
and unlike Pop other coaches dont just ship their asses out after proclaiming them favorites

Their rotation looks like Ilyasova/Henson PF Sanders/Udoh/Dalembert C
new coach is playing moute at SF with dunleavy backing him up
skiles had moute at PF
but if they trade moute it opens up playing time for Tobias Harris/Doron Lamb who both have solid potential

[Paranoid Pop]

Mbah a Moute was a skiles favorite
and unlike Pop other coaches dont just ship their asses out after proclaiming them favorites

Their rotation looks like Ilyasova/Henson PF Sanders/Udoh/Dalembert C
new coach is playing moute at SF with dunleavy backing him up
skiles had moute at PF
but if they trade moute it opens up playing time for Tobias Harris/Doron Lamb who both have solid potential

Why not move Dunleavy tho? Lack of shooting maybe but then what does he really add to our team? Not rebounding, not shooting... I don't see a huge upgrade...

[elemento]

Moute is a defensive beast and he can guard multiple positions. Still, he has no offensive game. Skiles loved him, but since he is not there anymore, I am not sure what's going to happen with him. MIL is stacked at the 4 position with Ilyasova and Henson and Gooden (cof cof). At the 3 they have Tobias Harris to be developed (SF with a very nice post game, but atrocious defensively) and Dunleavy who is the best shooter on that team.

The most I'd offer is Bonner + Neal

[Chinook]

He's an undersized power-forward with almost no offensive game and very little in the way on compensating defense. As I said in the game thread, I watched him in the Lakers' game last night. He started the game on Howard, which was impressive until Dwight started overpowering him inside. Then, he moved out on the perimeter. On offense, he was guarded by Nash ... and really didn't do much of anything against him. Mbah a Moute tried to back Nash down in the post, but he gave up pretty early. Then, he started facing up Nash, and he did manage to blow by him (which probably says more about Nash) but he looked even worse at finishing that Green does.

He used to be a decent three-point shooter (35 percent in 2009-2010), and I think he can learn to be again in a system that focuses on players getting good shots. Defensively, he can play the three, but his lack handles make his ceiling there pretty low. I think he fits best as a combo-forward who just stands in the corner waiting for a pass. The Spurs trading for him would mean that players like Kawhi and Green may be asked to do more creating when paired with Mbah a Moute. It's possible that Kawhi plays the "four" with Mbah a Moute at the "three," but just like right now with Ilyasova, I don't think that distinction would end up mattering much.

[freetiago]

Mbah a Moute makes the spurs perimeter defense elite
hes the closest thing to a bowen in the league today
maybe sefoloshoa is the closest
both are extremely long and not laterally challenged
they also play to make guys take bad shots not to pad steals/blocks like a lot of defenders do
Mbah a moute gives you another experienced and elite defender to throw at lebron and durant which is never a bad thing

his offensive game isnt great but he has enough skills to be productive
you have to take into account that he plays with 2 of the best chuckers in the league in ellis/jennings and milwaukee already has no spacing
spurs with elite playmakers, good coaching/plays, and chip england could make him into a productive player offensively
and danny green only shot 37% from college 3 and kawhi shot like 25% so improvement is possible

and if it fails he can just be put on the weakside and cut for dunks like avery bradley does
hes athletic enough to pull it off

He also makes Jackson expendable and hes cheap
jackson is playing terrible this season and hes always been a low efficiency chucker most of his career
not only can he not shoot, he cant guard anybody either
.395%/.304/.674 "efficiency" with 1.5 TOs in 22 minutes

A moute fixes the spurs pick and roll defense problems and an athletic defensive wing is more important then a backup C now that we have aron baynes who im sure will be a productive player for 10-15 mins a game
Spurs perimeter pick and roll defense is actually pretty bad but the rim defense is elite
a Tall athletic wing to guard the mobile stretch 4s like ibaka will stop all those "fluke" shooting nights spurfan complains about

[look_at_g_shred]

Anyone know if the Bucks have this guy on the market?

[Richie]

Can't hit 3s, so he'd be useless to the Spurs

[look_at_g_shred]

Can't hit 3s, so he'd be useless to the Spurs
Have you seen him play defense?

[Chinook]

Mbah a Moute also shot at 35 percent from three a few seasons ago. I think he could develop a corner three. In many ways, he's a better-defensive, but much worse offensive version of Leonard. He's probably the only guy outside of Lebron who can guard all five positions.

[Chinook]

The Bucks are apparently looking to swing a deal for Reddick and/or Smith. It Milwaukee gets Smith, they have little use for Mbah a Moute and will probably want to move him. Atlanta probably wouldn't want his contract. The Spurs can use Bonner's contract with Blair's in order take Mbah a Moute. I could see something like that happening. The Spurs may have to add some sweeteners for Atlanta to bite, but I think it works for all teams.

[Seventyniner]

The Bucks are apparently looking to swing a deal for Reddick and/or Smith. It Milwaukee gets Smith, they have little use for Mbah a Moute and will probably want to move him. Atlanta probably wouldn't want his contract. The Spurs can use Bonner's contract with Blair's in order take Mbah a Moute. I could see something like that happening. The Spurs may have to add some sweeteners for Atlanta to bite, but I think it works for all teams.

With Leonard, Jackson, and Diaw on the roster, where would Mbah a Moute fit in the rotation? Or does this assume that the Spurs move Jackson?

[elemento]

It looks like that Orlando offered Redick for Moute + 1st.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/226201/Bucks-Offered-Redick-For-Mbah-a-Moute-First-Rounder

Honestly, I don't understand the fascination for Redick. His situation reminds me Mike Miller a few years ago when a lot of teams wanted him and he ended up in Miami getting the full MLE. Look at him now.

I wonder if SA could get involved as a 3rd team.

[Richie]

Mbah a Moute also shot at 35 percent from three a few seasons ago. I think he could develop a corner three. In many ways, he's a better-defensive, but much worse offensive version of Leonard. He's probably the only guy outside of Lebron who can guard all five positions.

He hit 35% but only took 17 shots. He was 6/17 in 73 games. Statistical fluke from small sample size. He's only shot 56 threes in a 5 year career spanning over 300 games. If he was gonna develop a 3 point shot, he'd have it by now

[Richie]

Have you seen him play defense?

Doesn't matter tbh. If he can't hit 3's, we'd be playing 4-on-5 on the offensive end. Look at how much time Pop committed to Bonner to see how important floor spacing is for us.

[Chinook]

He hit 35% but only took 17 shots. He was 6/17 in 73 games. Statistical fluke from small sample size. He's only shot 56 threes in a 5 year career spanning over 300 games. If he was gonna develop a 3 point shot, he'd have it by now

So he doesn't take many means he can't make any? That's not a good argument. Players that don't take many threes often have a low percentage because the ones they take are in not good shots, like at the end of the shot clock. My guess is that he'd have a much better chance at making those shots if he was in the Spurs' system. He's also only 26 years old. He's not too old to learn how to shoot better from three. Richard Jefferson (*shutter*) dramatically improved his corner shot while in San Antonio, and he was 30. Leonard also went from not being able to hit threes at all to being a 40-percent shooter over the course of one season.

[Chinook]

With Leonard, Jackson, and Diaw on the roster, where would Mbah a Moute fit in the rotation? Or does this assume that the Spurs move Jackson?

Usually, I consider Mbah a Moute as a target for Bonner's deal come draft night, so I see him as a replacement for Jack. In this case, I'd consider him someone to compete with Jack for minutes this season and replace him next season. It definitely opens up room to move Jack for another player it they want to.

[Richie]

So he doesn't take many means he can't make any? That's not a good argument. Players that don't take many threes often have a low percentage because the ones they take are in not good shots, like at the end of the shot clock. My guess is that he'd have a much better chance at making those shots if he was in the Spurs' system. He's also only 26 years old. He's not too old to learn how to shoot better from three. Richard Jefferson (*shutter*) dramatically improved his corner shot while in San Antonio, and he was 30. Leonard also went from not being able to hit threes at all to being a 40-percent shooter over the course of one season.

Pretty much yes. If he was actually a decent 3 point shooter then he would be getting shots. If a guy is only taking 4 three point shots in a season as he did last year, thats about as good an indicator as anything that he is a bad three point shooter. Hell, Timmy has shot 2/5 this year, does that mean he could have been a stretch 4 during his career?

The Jefferson comparison is completely flawed also. Mbah a Moute has only taken 56 shots in 5 years, Jefferson only once had a single year where he took fewer than that, his second season. The year before he came to the Spurs, Jefferson shot 292 threes and hit at 40% for Milwaukee.

[Sdayi135]

An extra combo forward defender wouldn't hurt. Always liked him, despite his so-called "lack of an offensive game."

[Sdayi135]

Can't hit 3s, so he'd be useless to the Spurs

Tiago Splitter can't hit a jump shot....so does that make him useless on the Spurs???

[Richie]

Tiago Splitter can't hit a jump shot....so does that make him useless on the Spurs???


Splitter is a 7 foot center, not a 6'8 forward. If you're arguing for Mbah a Moute to come in and exclusively play the 4 next to Timmy then maybe he'd have some use, but he absolutely cannot play as a wing in the Spurs system with his 3 point shooting.

[Chinook]

Pretty much yes. If he was actually a decent 3 point shooter then he would be getting shots. If a guy is only taking 4 three point shots in a season as he did last year, thats about as good an indicator as anything that he is a bad three point shooter. Hell, Timmy has shot 2/5 this year, does that mean he could have been a stretch 4 during his career?

The Jefferson comparison is completely flawed also. Mbah a Moute has only taken 56 shots in 5 years, Jefferson only once had a single year where he took fewer than that, his second season. The year before he came to the Spurs, Jefferson shot 292 threes and hit at 40% for Milwaukee.

I disagree with that whole post.

No, shooting few threes just means you're not a focus in the offense. While sample size can be an issue, it can't ever be used to confirm the absence of something.

On the Duncan attempt at a strawman, yes, he could have learned to shoot threes if the Spurs had wanted him to. He had three-point range in college, and he feels comfortable taking a shot out to about 21 feet now. I bet he'd be a fine corner-three shooter next year if he worked at it this off-season.

I shouldn't have to address the fallacy behind using sample size as an argument for negation again. I will say that Jefferson's mechanics were wrong, which is why it took him a couple of years to become the shooter he was in his final year and change with the Spurs. He even admitted as much.

In short, there have been numerous examples of players learning how to shoot three-pointers late in their careers. It's really not hard to learn how to make a wide-open shot from a particular spot on the court, and that's pretty much all he has to do in the Spurs' offense. Not being a great shooter didn't keep Leonard off the floor early last season, and if wouldn't prevent Mbah a Moute from at least getting in for small-ball lineups. If the Spurs can deal with Duncan and Splitter on the court at the same time, they can deal with Mbah a Moute.

[Sdayi135]

I disagree with that whole post.

No, shooting few threes just means you're not a focus in the offense. While sample size can be an issue, it can't ever be used to confirm the absence of something.

On the Duncan attempt at a strawman, yes, he could have learned to shoot threes if the Spurs had wanted him to. He had three-point range in college, and he feels comfortable taking a shot out to about 21 feet now. I bet he'd be a fine corner-three shooter next year if he worked at it this off-season.

I shouldn't have to address the fallacy behind using sample size as an argument for negation again. I will say that Jefferson's mechanics were wrong, which is why it took him a couple of years to become the shooter he was in his final year and change with the Spurs. He even admitted as much.

In short, there have been numerous examples of players learning how to shoot three-pointers late in their careers. It's really not hard to learn how to make a wide-open shot from a particular spot on the court, and that's pretty much all he has to do in the Spurs' offense. Not being a great shooter didn't keep Leonard off the floor early last season, and if wouldn't prevent Mbah a Moute from at least getting in for small-ball lineups. If the Spurs can deal with Duncan and Splitter on the court at the same time, they can deal with Mbah a Moute.

This

[Chinook]

And on the issue of Splitter being a seven-footer and thusly in a completely different class as Mbah a Moute, I wouldn't be so sure. On offense, for sure Splitter is one of the best pick-and-roll rollers in the league. That would be hard to replace no matter what. But on defense, Mbah a Moute is great at guarding against height. When the Bucks played the Lakers a while back, Mbah a Moute guarded Howard a number of stretches.

[freetiago]

even though Mbah isnt a shooter its harder to be worse then the TOSB
jackson - 26% from 3 and declining
mbah a moute- 29% and would go up in SA

[Richie]

I disagree with that whole post.

No, shooting few threes just means you're not a focus in the offense. While sample size can be an issue, it can't ever be used to confirm the absence of something.

On the Duncan attempt at a strawman, yes, he could have learned to shoot threes if the Spurs had wanted him to. He had three-point range in college, and he feels comfortable taking a shot out to about 21 feet now. I bet he'd be a fine corner-three shooter next year if he worked at it this off-season.

I shouldn't have to address the fallacy behind using sample size as an argument for negation again. I will say that Jefferson's mechanics were wrong, which is why it took him a couple of years to become the shooter he was in his final year and change with the Spurs. He even admitted as much.

In short, there have been numerous examples of players learning how to shoot three-pointers late in their careers. It's really not hard to learn how to make a wide-open shot from a particular spot on the court, and that's pretty much all he has to do in the Spurs' offense. Not being a great shooter didn't keep Leonard off the floor early last season, and if wouldn't prevent Mbah a Moute from at least getting in for small-ball lineups. If the Spurs can deal with Duncan and Splitter on the court at the same time, they can deal with Mbah a Moute.

You're right, shooting few threes does mean you aren't the focus of the offence. And why is his three point shooting not the focus? Because he's a bad 3 point shooter.

At no point has Mbah a Moute ever shown he can be a good 3 point shooter. He shot 21% from 3 in college, and 25% in his career as a pro.

Now I do agree with you to some extent that a lack of threes doesn't mean you will never be a good enough three point shooter, but it does mean you aren't good enough to shoot them in games. Ibaka is a good example, he didn't take 3s in his first 3 years but has started adding that to his game this year. Could Mbah a Moute do that? Maybe, but he isn't even a good mid range shooter let alone from 3. Ibaka hit 43% from mid range last year and 49% this year. Mbah a Moute shot 20% last year (13/66) and 34% this year (27/79).

I totally disagree that it isn't hard to hit even wide open 3's from particular spots (ie the corner). If that was the case, why have Blair and Tiago not learned to do it? We all know how Pop loves to stretch the floor, if either of them could hit the corner 3 (especially Tiago), Pop would have them doing it.

[Richie]

And on the issue of Splitter being a seven-footer and thusly in a completely different class as Mbah a Moute, I wouldn't be so sure. On offense, for sure Splitter is one of the best pick-and-roll rollers in the league. That would be hard to replace no matter what. But on defense, Mbah a Moute is great at guarding against height. When the Bucks played the Lakers a while back, Mbah a Moute guarded Howard a number of stretches.

At no point am I saying Mbah a Moute couldn't play the defensive side of the floor for the Spurs. He would be an excellent defensive fit for the Spurs, but a horrible offensive fit.

[Chinook]

You're right, shooting few threes does mean you aren't the focus of the offence. And why is his three point shooting not the focus? Because he's a bad 3 point shooter.

At no point has Mbah a Moute ever shown he can be a good 3 point shooter. He shot 21% from 3 in college, and 25% in his career as a pro.

Now I do agree with you to some extent that a lack of threes doesn't mean you will never be a good enough three point shooter, but it does mean you aren't good enough to shoot them in games. Ibaka is a good example, he didn't take 3s in his first 3 years but has started adding that to his game this year. Could Mbah a Moute do that? Maybe, but he isn't even a good mid range shooter let alone from 3. Ibaka hit 43% from mid range last year and 49% this year. Mbah a Moute shot 20% last year (13/66) and 34% this year (27/79).

I totally disagree that it isn't hard to hit even wide open 3's from particular spots (ie the corner). If that was the case, why have Blair and Tiago not learned to do it? We all know how Pop loves to stretch the floor, if either of them could hit the corner 3 (especially Tiago), Pop would have them doing it.

Mbah a Moute was a considered a big most of his career. Just like with Splitter and Blair, most bigs are told by their teams to focus on playing inside as opposed to outside. That's why Duncan and Pau Gasol barely shoot threes. To this extend, Mbah a Moute tends to get his points from garbage baskets. He's already a good rebounder for his position.

Shooting from mid-range is not related to shooting from the corner. First off, the corner is one spot (or two spots) while there are tons of spots between the paint and the arch. A player has to learn how to make shots from multiple spots to be a good mid-range shooter. Second, distance has little to do with shooting ability. A lot of good three-point shooters don't have as much success making long twos (Green and Bonner being notable example of this).

I never said Mbah a Moute was a good three-point shooter. I said he could become one in the Spurs' system, and you said he could never become one. On the Spurs, that would be his main off-season job (which is why I said earlier that I like him as a draft-night pickup). He doesn't have to have Ray Allen's shooting skills to become an effective shooter; he just has to work at it. Unlike with Splitter, that is a worthwhile thing for Mbah a Moute to spend his time one.

[Chinook]

At no point am I saying Mbah a Moute couldn't play the defensive side of the floor for the Spurs. He would be an excellent defensive fit for the Spurs, but a horrible offensive fit.

I brought that up to say that playing Mbah a Moute at the four next to Duncan may not result in a major defensive drop. If that's the case, then the Spurs' offense should be fine with Mbah a Moute staying closer to the basket to grab rebounds. Luc would have to be able to set screens and roll, though. I don't know how much experience he's had at that sort of thing.

[Richie]

I never said Mbah a Moute was a good three-point shooter. I said he could become one in the Spurs' system, and you said he could never become one. On the Spurs, that would be his main off-season job (which is why I said earlier that I like him as a draft-night pickup). He doesn't have to have Ray Allen's shooting skills to become an effective shooter; he just has to work at it. Unlike with Splitter, that is a worthwhile thing for Mbah a Moute to spend his time one.

I'm not saying he could never become one, I just don't see any reason to think Mbah a Moute can become a good 3 point shooter, especially in a single summer. It's not like he is a Tim Duncan or Pau Gasol who never put the 3 in to their game because they were elite offensive players without it, the guy has pretty much no offensive game. If he could become a good 3 point shooter in a single summer, he would have done it by now. Again, it's not as if he had any other aspect of his offensive game that was taking precedence.

If Mbah a Moute could hit 3's at a decent clip, lets say 38% on 250+ attempts per 82 then he would be fantastic at the 3 for us. I just don't see why anyone would think that kind of shooting ability is attainable for a guy who has never shot it well at any point in his career. If anyone could do it, then everyone would be a good three point shooter.

[Chinook]

I'm not saying he could never become one, I just don't see any reason to think Mbah a Moute can become a good 3 point shooter, especially in a single summer. It's not like he is a Tim Duncan or Pau Gasol who never put the 3 in to their game because they were elite offensive players without it, the guy has pretty much no offensive game. If he could become a good 3 point shooter in a single summer, he would have done it by now. Again, it's not as if he had any other aspect of his offensive game that was taking precedence.

If Mbah a Moute could hit 3's at a decent clip, lets say 38% on 250+ attempts per 82 then he would be fantastic at the 3 for us. I just don't see why anyone would think that kind of shooting ability is attainable for a guy who has never shot it well at any point in his career. If anyone could do it, then everyone would be a good three point shooter.

Big men for the most part (and especially elite defensive bigs) don't learn to shoot threes. It's not that they can't learn if they wanted to; it's that it doesn't help to have your big outside the three-point line. Duncan and Gasol don't shoot threes because they're supposed to be near the basket for rebounds; their offensive games have little (but still something) to do with it. Ben Wallace was an extremely limited offensive player, could hit threes in practice (according to Pistons announcers, he was one of the best on the team at it) but never took many in the game. It just wasn't what he was supposed to do.

I could learn how to make a corner three consistently right now if I got paid to do nothing but work on that for four months. It's really not hard to be able to hit that shot. You add in that NBA players already know shooting form and have proper conditioning to keep their arms from getting tired, and it should be even easier. That isn't to say that some people just can't be consistent enough physically to be accurate from outside. A lot of bigs struggle with coordination (which is why many of them are bad at free throws), but that's hardly the case for wings. Every player who the Spur wanted to develop a three-point shot has done so.

Shooting threes under pressure is not easy (by our standards). That's why good shooters only make about 40 percent of their attempts. At 40 percent, a lot of players see three-pointers as being inefficient when they can drive and get a higher-percentage look. In an offense like the Spurs' threes come from much better looks, making them better shots. A player like Mbah a Moute would have taken more threes in San Antonio than he has in Milwaukee, and he'd have a higher percentage. Even at 29 percent, his shooting would be good enough to start out.

[Richie]

Big men for the most part (and especially elite defensive bigs) don't learn to shoot threes. It's not that they can't learn if they wanted to; it's that it doesn't help to have your big outside the three-point line. Duncan and Gasol don't shoot threes because they're supposed to be near the basket for rebounds; their offensive games have little (but still something) to do with it. Ben Wallace was an extremely limited offensive player, could hit threes in practice (according to Pistons announcers, he was one of the best on the team at it) but never took many in the game. It just wasn't what he was supposed to do.

I could learn how to make a corner three consistently right now if I got paid to do nothing but work on that for four months. It's really not hard to be able to hit that shot. You add in that NBA players already know shooting form and have proper conditioning to keep their arms from getting tired, and it should be even easier. That isn't to say that some people just can't be consistent enough physically to be accurate from outside. A lot of bigs struggle with coordination (which is why many of them are bad at free throws), but that's hardly the case for wings. Every player who the Spur wanted to develop a three-point shot has done so.

Shooting threes under pressure is not easy (by our standards). That's why good shooters only make about 40 percent of their attempts. At 40 percent, a lot of players see three-pointers as being inefficient when they can drive and get a higher-percentage look. In an offense like the Spurs' threes come from much better looks, making them better shots. A player like Mbah a Moute would have taken more threes in San Antonio than he has in Milwaukee, and he'd have a higher percentage. Even at 29 percent, his shooting would be good enough to start out.

Of course every player the Spurs have tried to develop in to a three point shooter has done so, but that just means they chose the right players to develop. They saw ability and nurtured it, they don't have a magic wand that turns bad shooters in to good ones. If the Spurs see that talent then great, but I doubt they do. Why? Because the Spurs aren't magic, somebody on the Bucks would have seen it too.

The comparison to Wallace is wrong IMO, the dude was a center so of course you can understand why they wouldn't use his 3 point shooting if he really had any ability. Mbah a Moute has played significant minutes throughout his career on the wing, it would make no sense whatsoever for him to have not tried to develop a 3 point shot if he had any talent, considering how poor he is all round on offence. If he was a great post up player or something I could understand, but the guy has nothing on the offensive end, if he really has the ability to hit the 3 consistently why wouldn't a team have already tried to develop it?

Occams razor, the simplest answer is usually the right one, and the simplest answer is that he just doesn't have the talent from 3.

[Chinook]

The comparison to Wallace is wrong IMO, the dude was a center so of course you can understand why they wouldn't use his 3 point shooting if he really had any ability.


We all know how Pop loves to stretch the floor, if either of them could hit the corner 3 (especially Tiago), Pop would have them doing it.

So Wallace being a center means he shouldn't take threes, but Splitter being a center means he should (if he could)? You've crossed yourself so many times in this discussion.

When push comes to shove, some players are asked by their teams to shoot threes and some aren't. Which specific players fit into each categories depends on a myriad of factors, and having the "talent" to shoot threes is only one of them. There's also the idea of role, as in how shooting threes will affect a player's ability to do other things on the court. If the Bucks want Mbah a Moute to rebound and score off put-backs (as teams usually want from their power-forwards), then they will not encourage them to hang out on the perimeter and shoot. There's also system variation. Some teams just don't need as many long-range shooters as the Spurs do. Now that Ilyasova is starting at the four, there's no need to have Mbah a Moute hang around beyond the arch.

When push comes to shove, you're whole argument is just teleological. You're just saying that players that shoot well from three can shoot well and players that don't can't. Leonard shot the exact same percentage from three in college as Mbah a Moute has shot in the pros, but for some reason, he was able to develop a shot in the span of a lockout. If the Spurs had followed your reasoning when they drafted him, they would have just given up on him ever developing into a good three-point shooter.

[Richie]

So Wallace being a center means he shouldn't take threes, but Splitter being a center means he should (if he could)? You've crossed yourself so many times in this discussion.

When push comes to shove, some players are asked by their teams to shoot threes and some aren't. Which specific players fit into each categories depends on a myriad of factors, and having the "talent" to shoot threes is only one of them. There's also the idea of role, as in how shooting threes will affect a player's ability to do other things on the court. If the Bucks want Mbah a Moute to rebound and score off put-backs (as teams usually want from their power-forwards), then they will not encourage them to hang out on the perimeter and shoot. There's also system variation. Some teams just don't need as many long-range shooters as the Spurs do. Now that Ilyasova is starting at the four, there's no need to have Mbah a Moute hang around beyond the arch.

When push comes to shove, you're whole argument is just teleological. You're just saying that players that shoot well from three can shoot well and players that don't can't. Leonard shot the exact same percentage from three in college as Mbah a Moute has shot in the pros, but for some reason, he was able to develop a shot in the span of a lockout. If the Spurs had followed your reasoning when they drafted him, they would have just given up on him ever developing into a good three-point shooter.

As for Splitter and Wallace, there is a difference. Wallace played his best years in Detroit next to Sheed who was a very capable 3 point shooter, so obviously you don't need Ben Wallace out on the 3 point line as well. By comparison, Splitter is playing with Duncan who doesn't stretch the floor, and as Duncan is clearly a better inside player it means Pop would have Splitter stretch the floor the way Sheed did. That should be obvious with the way Pop played Bonner ahead of Splitter the past few years, if Splitter could hit the 3 then he would have been playing ahead of Bonner a long time ago because he brings so much more.

I am saying that wing players who can't shoot well from 3 don't shoot threes. Why is that so ridiculous? Your argument is even more of a stretch IMO. You're saying that Mbah a Moute has everything it takes to be a 35%+ 3-point shooter on 200+ attempts each year with only a single summers work, but the Bucks have decided they don't want him to do that. Rather than nurture this talent and use it to their advantage, the Bucks want him to be what he is now, effectively a bystander on the offensive end. The guy plays plenty of minutes at the 3, do you really believe that the Bucks would have no use for him to develop a 3 point shot?

You bring up Leonard, but there are a couple differences. First, Leonard shot better in college (ie at the same age) from 3 than Mbah a Moute did. Second, the Spurs specifically drafted Leonard knowing he had a simple problem in his shot mechanics that would be easy to fix and would make him a much better shooter. If the same was true of Mbah a Moute and he had the ability to be a shooter of Leonards quality I have to again ask, why haven't the Bucks turned him in to a better shooter? Do they feel they are better off having one of their wing players unable to hit 3's at a decent rate? Again, it's not like he's been spending all his time working on an elite post game, the guy is a poor offensive player.

It just doesn't make sense to claim the guy is a good 3 point shooter. He has never done anything in his entire career to suggest he can hit 3's at a decent clip on a significant number of attempts. Looking at Ilyasova shows that the Bucks are able to use a stretch 4 effectively, so in 5 years why has Mbah a Moute never been used like this if he can indeed hit the 3 like you hope?

It seems there are two possibilities. One is that he isn't a good 3 point shooter, hence why he doesn't shoot many 3's and doesn't score many of the ones he does shoot. The second option is that he is a good 3 point shooter (or could be with as little as a summers work), but the Bucks choose not to utilise this in their offence. I know which one I consider most likely.

[chazley]

Broussard just tweeted Mbah being shopped. Don't think he's a great fit now that we have Kawhi, but at the right price I'd love to have him.

[Chinook]

Teleological. Leonard is shooting well now, so he always had the potential to shoot well. Mbah a Moute isn't shooting well; therefore, he doesn't have the potential.

If everyone thought Leonard's issues were fixable, then he wouldn't have fallen as far as he did in the draft. A lot of scouts, and teams apparently, don't know how do develop shooters. Milwaukee is an inept offensive team, who until recently schemed against an open offense, so I don't think it's safe to assume anything about their competence.

Mbah a Moute is a functional power-forward. He only "plays as a wing" when paired with a stretch four. While him learning to shoot threes would be nice regardless of his position, many teams discourage their fours from taking shots from behind the arch. I'd never trust Scott Skiles to develop players' offensive games properly.

Bottom line: Players develop as their teams push them to (if they are willing and if the teams are reasonable in their expectations). Splitter doesn't shoot threes because he's a center who's main asset is playing the pick-and-roll. This works for the Spurs, because Duncan already has a developed shot out to 21 feet and not having to run in the PnR saves is legs for defense. Wallace didn't take threes because he job was to get rebounds and put-backs. Even with Chicago and Cleveland, this was his purpose. Mbah a Moute was the ace defensive four that made Skiles' system work. He scored on the put-backs like a more mobile Reggie Evans, and Skiles never saw a reason to move passed that. In the two years in which he's taken the most three-pointers, he's made the highest percentages (32 percent for those years). With more attempts and better looks, 38-40 percent really doesn't seem like too big of a leap.

[Richie]

Teleological. Leonard is shooting well now, so he always had the potential to shoot well. Mbah a Moute isn't shooting well; therefore, he doesn't have the potential.

If everyone thought Leonard's issues were fixable, then he wouldn't have fallen as far as he did in the draft. A lot of scouts, and teams apparently, don't know how do develop shooters. Milwaukee is an inept offensive team, who until recently schemed against an open offense, so I don't think it's safe to assume anything about their competence.

Mbah a Moute is a functional power-forward. He only "plays as a wing" when paired with a stretch four. While him learning to shoot threes would be nice regardless of his position, many teams discourage their fours from taking shots from behind the arch. I'd never trust Scott Skiles to develop players' offensive games properly.

Bottom line: Players develop as their teams push them to (if they are willing and if the teams are reasonable in their expectations). Splitter doesn't shoot threes because he's a center who's main asset is playing the pick-and-roll. This works for the Spurs, because Duncan already has a developed shot out to 21 feet and not having to run in the PnR saves is legs for defense. Wallace didn't take threes because he job was to get rebounds and put-backs. Even with Chicago and Cleveland, this was his purpose. Mbah a Moute was the ace defensive four that made Skiles' system work. He scored on the put-backs like a more mobile Reggie Evans, and Skiles never saw a reason to move passed that. In the two years in which he's taken the most three-pointers, he's made the highest percentages (32 percent for those years). With more attempts and better looks, 38-40 percent really doesn't seem like too big of a leap.

See, I personally see it as too big of a leap. If he had hit his 32 percent from 100+ attempts I would put more faith in the figure, but on only 41 shots in those 109 games? The sample size is too small to have faith in that figure IMO.

In the Bucks most used lineups in the last couple years, he has most often played with Gooden/Bogut, Gooden/Ilyasova and Sanders/Ilyasova (all top 2 most used lineups in the last 3 years). That's significant minutes at the wing positions.

Perhaps you're right and the Bucks have misused him by not pushing him to develop his three point shot, but I just don't think it's the most likely scenario. Again, if he was a Wallace, Duncan or Splitter and had other offensive abilities I might buy it, but the guy really doesn't do anything on offense, and what he does do he does inefficiently (7 points off 7 shots this year). If he had this ability, I don't see how the Bucks would have missed it for 5 years.

If we trade for him and he turns in to a legit 3 point threat I'll happily eat my hat, I love the guys defensive game and he would be an excellent defensive fit. I just don't understand what would give the Spurs reason to believe he can turn in to a legit 3 point shooter. If they've seen something the way they saw something with Kawhi then sure, but he's done nothing in his basketball career to suggest that he can. If it's just hope, then it would be a bad trade to make.

[Chinook]

See, I personally see it as too big of a leap. If he had hit his 32 percent from 100+ attempts I would put more faith in the figure, but on only 41 shots in those 109 games? The sample size is too small to have faith in that figure IMO.

In the Bucks most used lineups in the last couple years, he has most often played with Gooden/Bogut, Gooden/Ilyasova and Sanders/Ilyasova (all top 2 most used lineups in the last 3 years). That's significant minutes at the wing positions.

Perhaps you're right and the Bucks have misused him by not pushing him to develop his three point shot, but I just don't think it's the most likely scenario. Again, if he was a Wallace, Duncan or Splitter and had other offensive abilities I might buy it, but the guy really doesn't do anything on offense, and what he does do he does inefficiently (7 points off 7 shots this year). If he had this ability, I don't see how the Bucks would have missed it for 5 years.

If we trade for him and he turns in to a legit 3 point threat I'll happily eat my hat, I love the guys defensive game and he would be an excellent defensive fit. I just don't understand what would give the Spurs reason to believe he can turn in to a legit 3 point shooter. If they've seen something the way they saw something with Kawhi then sure, but he's done nothing in his basketball career to suggest that he can. If it's just hope, then it would be a bad trade to make.

Then we have an accord.

Mbah a Moute may or may not have the ability to become a passable shooter from deep. The sample size is too small to tell either way. If the Spurs trade for him (and thus agree to pay his remaining salary), we can probably feel confident they can fix his shot and put him in a good position to make the most of his attempts. If they don't want him, we have to reason to assume they should take a risk they're not comfortable with.

Sound about right?

[Richie]

Then we have an accord.

Mbah a Moute may or may not have the ability to become a passable shooter from deep. The sample size is too small to tell either way. If the Spurs trade for him (and thus agree to pay his remaining salary), we can probably feel confident they can fix his shot and put him in a good position to make the most of his attempts. If they don't want him, we have to reason to assume they should take a risk they're not comfortable with.

Sound about right?

Pretty much. I would add that I feel the small sample size in itself is a strong indicator that he isn't a good shooter right now, and I'd be very surprised if he never tried to add a 3 point shot to his game, therefore indicating that it would be tough to turn him in to a strong 3 point shooter. We clearly disagree on this point though.

If they do trade for him I think it'll be a mistake, but I hope I'm wrong. Gotta trust Pops judgement.

[look_at_g_shred]

Pretty much. I would add that I feel the small sample size in itself is a strong indicator that he isn't a good shooter right now, and I'd be very surprised if he never tried to add a 3 point shot to his game, therefore indicating that it would be tough to turn him in to a strong 3 point shooter. We clearly disagree on this point though.

If they do trade for him I think it'll be a mistake, but I hope I'm wrong. Gotta trust Pops judgement.

This dude wouldn't need to shoot 3's since we got Kawhi/Jack out there. He would have to play the 4.

[ace3g]

The Bucks are active. General manager John Hammond plays the laid-back, gee-shucks Midwesterner. But he likes the trade game. He has shown an interest in Orlando Magic shooting guard J.J. Redick, but the Magic are not enamored yet with anything the Bucks have offered.

Bucks forward Luc Richard Mbah a Moute is one option, but Orlando does not like his contract. But the Magic aren't interested in the remainder of Mbah a Moute's contract – two years, $8.97 million. There is also interest around the league in Bucks center Ekpe Udoh, who is still on his rookie deal.

The Magic have wanted to know Redick's future price. Hoping for a hometown discount, Orlando is not willing to pay much above what he makes now ($6.19 million this season), and Redick wants a significant raise – close to $10 million a season. Orlando continues to take calls on Redick's availability, and the Magic are looking for at least a first-round pick.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/02/20/nba-trade-deadline/1932729/

[exstatic]

I'm not saying he could never become one, I just don't see any reason to think Mbah a Moute can become a good 3 point shooter, especially in a single summer. It's not like he is a Tim Duncan or Pau Gasol who never put the 3 in to their game because they were elite offensive players without it, the guy has pretty much no offensive game. If he could become a good 3 point shooter in a single summer, he would have done it by now. Again, it's not as if he had any other aspect of his offensive game that was taking precedence.

If Mbah a Moute could hit 3's at a decent clip, lets say 38% on 250+ attempts per 82 then he would be fantastic at the 3 for us. I just don't see why anyone would think that kind of shooting ability is attainable for a guy who has never shot it well at any point in his career. If anyone could do it, then everyone would be a good three point shooter.

Chip Englland. Kawhi Leonard. 29% from the shorter NCAA line. 38% from the longer NBA line. One summer. Actually, the slivers of time between the draft and the lockout, and training camp.

[Richie]

Chip Englland. Kawhi Leonard. 29% from the shorter NCAA line. 38% from the longer NBA line. One summer. Actually, the slivers of time between the draft and the lockout, and training camp.

Leonard was drafted specifically because the front office saw he had a simple problem with his shot mechanics that they thought was easy to fix. If it's the same for Mbah a Moute, why haven't the Bucks fixed it in the last 5 years?

[exstatic]

Leonard was drafted specifically because the front office saw he had a simple problem with his shot mechanics that they thought was easy to fix. If it's the same for Mbah a Moute, why haven't the Bucks fixed it in the last 5 years?

They don't have Chip Englland. He's the best shooting coach on the planet.

Other teams don't draft like we do, either. Don't be at all surprised that they don't develop players like we do.

[Richie]

They don't have Chip Englland. He's the best shooting coach on the planet.

Other teams don't draft like we do, either. Don't be at all surprised that they don't develop players like we do.

Milwaukees incompetence is a fair argument. You could be right, perhaps he could be a great shooter but Milwaukee hasn't developed him properly. Personally I don't think that is incredibly likely, but it's no doubt a possibility.

As for the Spurs developing players, it is true but I think it's more about picking the right players. We had Garrett Temple and Alonzo Gee on contracts before picking up Green, both of whom are in the league at the moment and Gee got a decent contract from the Cavs. The Spurs kept Green because he had the potential to be a great spot up shooter, if the Spurs had kept either of the other two they almost certainly wouldn't be 40% 3 point shooters.

Like I say, it may seem that the Spurs are excellent at developing players, and it's probably true that they are, but IMO it's more to do with the fact that they choose the right players to develop. Chip isn't a magician, he can't turn anyone in to a great spot up shooter, but the Spurs only give him players who have the ability to become one. I've not seen anything from Mbah a Moute to suggest he has that ability.