Lance Armstrong: The prototypical American?

[ElNono]

Was thinking about this the other day... cheat, lie, steal... Is everything fair game when you're going for the stash of cash?

Back in the day, he was hailed as the 'Role Model for Success' by Capitalism Magazine (link (http://capitalismmagazine.com/2004/08/lance-armstrong-role-model-for-success/))

What say you?

[z0sa]

More like prototypical human being

[ElNono]

I don't know about that, z0sa. I would admit that perhaps characterizing it as American-only is unfair.

[boutons_deux]

Oprah is sure spewing out the publicity to build audience ratings and sell premium-priced advertizing spots for the Lance-The-Liar show Thursday.

[mingus]

I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that the prototypical American lies, cheats, and steals at their job. In my experience, those are the few bad apples, but they are far from typical.

[Bartleby]

Meh, doping is rampant, not just in cycling but all sports. Lance made the mistake of sticking to his denials too long.

[z0sa]

I don't know about that, z0sa. I would admit that perhaps characterizing it as American-only is unfair.

I see why you would say American, considering LA is American after all. What I mean is, someone put in his position. Like Bartleby just said, doping is rampant in all sports. Human nature, particularly in the highest levels of competitive sports, is seeking to gain an advantage any way possible. Unfortunately for Armstrong, he allowed himself to be marketed as a Good Guy instead of a Normal Guy when he knew he was the latter and not the former.

[boutons_deux]

Lance Armstrong: All American Boy Numerous organizations and sponsors will all ask for a return of their money because of Armstrong's fraud. The state of South Australia is planning to demand Lance return millions in appearance fees. The Sunday Times of London will seek the $500,000 it paid him in a settlement. He's likely to be sued again by SCA, a Dallas company that Lance took to court to pay him a $5 million dollar bonus. SCA had refused on grounds that Armstrong cheated.

Any apology from Armstrong needs to be made personally to people like Betsy Andreu and her husband Frankie. Or Greg Lemond, the first American to win the Tour de France. Or Emma O'Reilly, the masseuse who reported Armstrong's use of drugs. Armstrong later implied she was just a woman of disrepute with other men. Or journalist David Walsh who wrote "L.A. Confidentiel" and whose employer was sued by Lance. Lemond had a bike brand with Trek that was doing well for 13 years until he called out Armstrong for cheating. And Trek, an Armstrong sponsor, stopped producing the Lemond series of bikes.

Possibly no one took more grief from bullyboy Lance than Betsy Andreu. Her husband Frankie was one of Lance's best friends and rode with him until the two of them testified that they heard the troubled Texan admit to a doctor he had used performance-enhancing drugs. The confession came in Indianapolis when Armstrong was being treated for cancer. Lance constantly attacked the Andreu's publicly, made it all but impossible for Frankie to get sponsors or even work, and suggested that Betsy was simply troubled and jealous of Lance's success. Instead, she was a truth-teller who refused, unlike many people, to get wrapped up in the lie being told by Lance Armstrong. She won. He was defeated by a diminutive, principled woman, who was the first to stand up to him.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/lance-armstrong-lawsuit_b_2482179.html?view=print&comm_ref=false

nothing specifically American about professional biker doping. The entire sport, all riders, are pretty much compromised.

[ElNono]

I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that the prototypical American lies, cheats, and steals at their job. In my experience, those are the few bad apples, but they are far from typical.

It's not that, the average american just doesn't have a shot at that kind of money regardless of how much they would be willing to lie, cheat and steal.

The question is closer to what happens when they do have a shot, and how far are they willing to go for a home run.

I might be wrong, but I do think we live in a society (especially in America) where greed and 'winning at any cost' is not frowned upon, but actually encouraged and viewed as the 'business-savvy' thing to do.

[ElNono]

Meh, doping is rampant, not just in cycling but all sports. Lance made the mistake of sticking to his denials too long.

I don't particularly buy that because other people do it, he should get a pass.


I see why you would say American, considering LA is American after all. What I mean is, someone put in his position. Like Bartleby just said, doping is rampant in all sports. Human nature, particularly in the highest levels of competitive sports, is seeking to gain an advantage any way possible. Unfortunately for Armstrong, he allowed himself to be marketed as a Good Guy instead of a Normal Guy when he knew he was the latter and not the former.

To be fair, as I explained to mingus, the 'American' context has more to do with the kind of American values/message is out there more than his nationality.

But you give a good example, you see this as Good Guy vs Normal Guy. Shouldn't it be Good/Normal Guy vs Bad Guy?

[boutons_deux]

"Lance Armstrong's $5 Million Offer Rejected By Government"The ultimate cost of Lance Armstrong's doping and deception has yet to be determined but it will be high and not just in terms of his reputation. The Sunday Times wants more than $1.5 million (http://news.yahoo.com/uk-paper-suing-lance-armstrong-over-libel-case-152659487--spt.html) from Armstrong relating to a libel settlement in 2006. South Australia wants him to pay back (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/14/south-australia-lance-armstrong_n_2476385.html) appearance fees. Back home, the U.S. government rejected Armstrong's offer of more than $5 million (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57564168/cbs-news-government-rejects-armstrongs-$5m-restitution-offer/) to make amends for fraud allegedly committed against the U.S. Postal Service, according to CBS.


The U.S. Postal Service paid out $30.9 million (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6019436) to Armstrong's cycling team from 2001-2004, according to documents obtained by ESPN in 2011. Armstrong won four of his seven Tour de France titles during this period. He has since been stripped of all titles (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/usada-lance-armstrong-tour-titles-doping-stripped_n_1826874.html) after a report by the USADA detailed a long history of doping during his career. According to CBS, Armstrong's offer of $5 million (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57564168/cbs-news-government-rejects-armstrongs-$5m-restitution-offer/) and his cooperation in an investigation to settle up with the government was rebuffed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/16/lance-armstrong-restitution-government_n_2483370.html

[DarrinS]

I don't know about that, z0sa. I would admit that perhaps characterizing it as American-only is unfair.

/thread

[mingus]

It's not that, the average american just doesn't have a shot at that kind of money regardless of how much they would be willing to lie, cheat and steal.

The question is closer to what happens when they do have a shot, and how far are they willing to go for a home run.

I might be wrong, but I do think we live in a society (especially in America) where greed and 'winning at any cost' is not frowned upon, but actually encouraged and viewed as the 'business-savvy' thing to do.

So basically what you are saying is that the "everything has a price" aphorism applies especially to Americans? I think it applies to humans across the board pretty evenly.

I think we live in a society where in certain circles of society it is not frowned upon, of course. But to suggest as you seem to be that the entire or majority of population has gathered behind that messages? I don't buy it.

[boutons_deux]

" 'winning at any cost' is not frowned upon"

at any cost, and

winning is the ONLY thing
-- venerated Vince Lombardi

As we see in the financial sector, winning $Bs by cheating is not even punished. There's no enforcement, no accountability.

[Blake]

Why would Lance come out now and admit it?

He has everything to lose and nothing but a clear conscience to gain from what I can tell.

[ElNono]

So basically what you are saying is that the "everything has a price" aphorism applies especially to Americans? I think it applies to humans across the board pretty evenly.

Actually, I'm specifically referring to cases where the pursuit is mostly commercial.


I think we live in a society where in certain circles of society it is not frowned upon, of course. But to suggest as you seem to be that the entire or majority of population has gathered behind that messages? I don't buy it.

Fair enough.

[ElNono]

Why would Lance come out now and admit it?

He has everything to lose and nothing but a clear conscience to gain from what I can tell.

From what I read he wants to compete professionally again, and that was not possible for him after the USA cycling association (or whatever is named) investigation.

[Blake]

From what I read he wants to compete professionally again, and that was not possible for him after the USA cycling association (or whatever is named) investigation.

Wow.

What an idiot, if true.

[ElNono]

Wow.

What an idiot, if true.

More here:

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8298135/usada-said-friday-officially-banned-lance-armstrong-life-stripping-seven-tour-de-france-titles-charges-used-performance-enhancing-drugs-cycling-career

[coyotes_geek]

So basically what you are saying is that the "everything has a price" aphorism applies especially to Americans? I think it applies to humans across the board pretty evenly.

This. In America the dollars at stake may be bigger and the spotlight may be brighter than other parts of the world, but I don't think you can say the average American is any more predisposed to lie, cheat and steal than anyone else on the globe.

[Blake]

More here:

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8298135/usada-said-friday-officially-banned-lance-armstrong-life-stripping-seven-tour-de-france-titles-charges-used-performance-enhancing-drugs-cycling-career

Yeah, I remember when he decided to stop fighting the charges. I thought the interesting part of that was the quote of ”overwhelming evidence of doping”.

I guess if that part is true, then he is trying to confess first before the evidence comes out?

I don't care how tired he might be of fighting it, I think it's still his best play. Unless he's also tired of being rich.

[SnakeBoy]

I might be wrong, but I do think we live in a society (especially in America) where greed and 'winning at any cost' is not frowned upon, but actually encouraged and viewed as the 'business-savvy' thing to do.

Clearly that is how you view America but using LA as an example is ridiculous. He has been stripped of his titles, publicly humiliated, and may likely face federal prosecution what more needs to happen to him to convince you that america "frowns upon" his actions?

[ploto]

The problem with Armstrong is not that he cheated in a sport full of cheaters. The problem is that he tried to destroy anyone who told the truth about him. Unless he intends to do something major to remedy how he ruined other people's lives, then I have no interest in anything he has to say.

[ElNono]

Clearly that is how you view America but using LA as an example is ridiculous. He has been stripped of his titles, publicly humiliated, and may likely face federal prosecution what more needs to happen to him to convince you that america "frowns upon" his actions?

Stop letting him cash in with this story, among other things? I also haven't seen the "public humiliation" you describe. Most of what I've heard is what Bartleby said... "hey everyone does it!"...

The federal prosecution part is news to me, though. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Latarian Milton]

nigga might have cheated on this game but he's still a warrior in life, and yes he's a prototypical american from whom you see the strong fortitude through hardships, and the genuine hope for a better life, things that all americans share in common.

[boutons_deux]

nigga might have cheated on this game but he's still a warrior in life, and yes he's a prototypical american from whom you see the strong fortitude through hardships, and the genuine hope for a better life, things that all americans share in common.

:lol

[Agloco]

More like prototypical human being

Gotta agree here. Left to our own devices, most will push limits and bend rules. Where they actually break is a matter of perception, which for all of us is quite different.

That said, I'm deeply disappointed in this situation. This was one person who really inspired due to his medical history. Shitty stuff.

[ALVAREZ6]

lol srsly ElNono ??? An Argentine saying these things? This seems like a troll thread.

[ElNono]

lol srsly ElNono ??? An Argentine saying these things? This seems like a troll thread.

:lol not hating, tbh... and I'm an American now, so, if anything, I'm including myself in the group

[DMC]

More like prototypical human being

nailed it

Cheated better than the other cheaters. Should be called the Tour de Chance, because you don't stand one if you aren't doping.

[DMC]

Meh, doping is rampant, not just in cycling but all sports. Lance made the mistake of sticking to his denials too long.

I think he got every penny he could from it. He was about dead in the hospital facing a grim future in any at all. He turned that into world fame and shattered records in his sport. Sure he doped, so did everyone else (and they've been nailed since). He just did it better for longer. Mark McGwire cheated, but he had his moment of glory. No one knows who the fuck Mark McGwire is if he doesn't dope, same with Canseco and a host of others. Nobody gets naturally as big as those guys playing baseball. Bonds destroyed every HR record, doping all the way. Name one great athlete over the past 20 years in a sport that requires strength and endurance, who's dominated the league and didn't dope. NBA and golf doesn't count.

[ElNono]

FWIW, I apologize if I hurt some feelings.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the sponsorships and endorsements, those corps already benefited from it during the time...i dunno what else damage can be done today outcome...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The keeping up appearances act goes far beyond an american tradition. The entire notion of perception is more important than reality revolves around that.

What did he steal btw? He no doubt cheated but the anti-doping shit is arbitrary and sanctimonious in general.

[ElNono]

What did he steal btw? He no doubt cheated but the anti-doping shit is arbitrary and sanctimonious in general.

I thought about that too. This is what I gathered:
- Cheat: He doped
- Lie: He lied about it
- Steal: He stole the medals and trophies from rightful, non-cheating participants that earned them fair and square.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I cannot argue too much but that sport, much like baseball, is so ridden with it can you really say who the deserving winners were? Considering baseball is America's past time supposedly, you do have a point though.

[ElNono]

I cannot argue too much but that sport, much like baseball, is so ridden with it can you really say who the deserving winners were? Considering baseball is America's past time supposedly, you do have a point though.

You would hope *somebody* didn't cheat.

[Trainwreck2100]

I thought about that too. This is what I gathered:
- Cheat: He doped
- Lie: He lied about it
- Steal: He stole the medals and trophies from rightful, non-cheating participants that earned them fair and square.

He didn't steal dick those TDF lineups were loaded with doapers.

[velik_m]

Why would Lance come out now and admit it?

He has everything to lose and nothing but a clear conscience to gain from what I can tell.

This is what puzzles me too. At this point what did he get by admitting it? Clear conscience i guess, but he's clearly an asshole, so i doubt it's that.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't really think it matters if he admits it or not in terms of what is going to happen to him. His sponsors dropped him, they already pulled all his awards, and he is getting sued. If he goes to court and continues to lie --and he is probably going to be in court-- then he goes to jail. At least this way the admission comes in a forum that he can expect and having Oprah do it and claim that his admission was more than she ever expected is a PR coup.

He quite literally has nothing to lose.

And as an aside its kinda cynical that you cannot think of a reason for him not to lie just in and of itself.

[velik_m]

Considering he lied now for, what, a decade? and even lashed out on people who called it a lie, i don't see why now would be so different. I don't see why he would suddenly become honest and i see no benefit (for himself) in his sudden reversal of statements.

[boutons_deux]

If he starts spouting off about Christ and Coming To Jesus as Our Lord Almighty and Savior, the "Christians" will forgive and pay him $Ms for motivational speeches and sermons. :)

[DMC]

You would hope *somebody* didn't cheat.

That would be the person who didn't get busted and who didn't admit to cheating. That was Lance for many years. The entire sport has been turned into a clown show. Every high level competition has it's cheaters, and those cheats are often so subtle that they are almost undetectable, but if you ask the participants and they weren't trying to protect the sport, they'd tell you.

[DMC]

Considering he lied now for, what, a decade? and even lashed out on people who called it a lie, i don't see why now would be so different. I don't see why he would suddenly become honest and i see no benefit (for himself) in his sudden reversal of statements.

He's alienated everyone he knows because everyone he knows knew he was cheating. They expected him to come clean one day, but he rode the wave and pretty much took a huge shit on the sport and his friends in the process. He will make more money from this btw. I expect a book deal. Good or bad, popularity = money.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Considering he lied now for, what, a decade? and even lashed out on people who called it a lie, i don't see why now would be so different. I don't see why he would suddenly become honest and i see no benefit (for himself) in his sudden reversal of statements.

That's certainly sensible. I guess now though the cat's out of the bag so to speak and he has nothing to lose. What are they going to do take his wins away and sue him for millions of dollars? I wouldn't wnat to be him right now.

[Blake]

He will make more money from this btw. I expect a book deal. Good or bad, popularity = money.

he might make some money off this bit of infamy, but he's gonna lose his bike shorts in courtroom after courtroom, now that he's admitted it.

I've also heard on the radio possible criminal charges may be coming, but not sure what they might be. Perjury? Dunno.

[Blake]

FWIW, I apologize if I hurt some feelings.

Prototypical American.......always hurting feelings

[coyotes_geek]

FWIW, I apologize if I hurt some feelings.

Doesn't count unless it's on Oprah.

[ElNono]

Doesn't count unless it's on Oprah.

:greedy

[Sportcamper]

Timing Is EVERYTHING

Manti Te'o,...from the bottom of my heart,...thank you. Dear God thank you.


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqIx1iupJz1xC0tJa3ZMXHtkeytb-grgTInWw-Z-FLuWQPaygP

[DarkReign]

Timing Is EVERYTHING

Manti Te'o,...from the bottom of my heart,...thank you. Dear God thank you.


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqIx1iupJz1xC0tJa3ZMXHtkeytb-grgTInWw-Z-FLuWQPaygP

Lol

[Blake]

”Manti, from the bottom of my bank account, fuck you ”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2012/11/oprah.jpg

[Fabbs]

Is this to be believed?

…."I know I did that. I know I treated people the wrong way. I know I sued people," Armstrong said on the podcast. "But I’ll tell you what I have done. This, this thing’s cost me $111 million. Everybody’s been paid back. The people that were, that were treated poorly, I have traveled the world to sit with, to talk to, to apologize to, to make amends and to try to move forward."

Lance Armstrong wonders why he is scorned and Alex Rodriguez forgiven after doping scandals.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/lance-armstrong-wonders-why-he-is-scorned-and-alex-rodriguez-forgiven-after-doping-scandals/ar-BBL67Yw?ocid=spartandhp

[DMC]

Easy, Alex didn't win 7 consecutive titles.

[Othyus Lalanne]

I don't know about that, z0sa. I would admit that perhaps characterizing it as American-only is unfair.

And backpedalling in this bullshit in your second post.

[ElNono]

And backpedalling in this bullshit in your second post.

Granted, it's been 5+ years since this thread, but how is it backpedaling? I think the subject was covered pretty well by all posters.

and...


FWIW, I apologize if I hurt some feelings.