Lebron James is a lock for the TOP 10 GOAT list

[StrengthAndHonor]

Possibly even Top 5. Who gets bumped out of the Top 5 or 10 list, 5-6 years from now?

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. KAJ
4. Bill Russell
5. Larry Bird

IMO those are a lock. They don't necessarily have the best numbers when it comes to statistic but I fell like they brought a LOT to the game of basketball, they are proven winners and are all household names (With the exception of Russell perhaps because he's not in the spotlight so much). Overall, they're impact are irreplaceable. Newer generation will say Bird doesn't believe but I disagree. Without Bird, Magic and the Lakers story wouldve been a lot lsee interesting in the 80's.



The remaining 5 IMO are interchangeable.

6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Olajuwon


Lebron's a Top 12 player right now. Its only a matter of time before he moves up in the 30k points, 7.5k assists and 10k rebound club. All that with possibly 5 MVP's and 2-3 championship rings.

The way he's dominating right now and how his legacy is shaping up, he's really making the rest of the 3 in that list pale in comparison (Duncan, Olajuwon and Kobe)


Kobe has a chance to still cement his spot. If he wins another title and finals MVP along with his scoring accolades, he may very well be solid 8th or 9th spot in that list.


So who does Lebron replace in that Top 10 list when his career is all said and done?

[Stalin]

lol bill russel

[StrengthAndHonor]

The NBA was Bill Russell's playground. He's much more iconic than Wilt tbh.

[Raven]

Magic for sure... he should not be in the top 10 anyway but if we give it a pass, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Magic for sure... he should not be in the top 10 anyway but if we give it a pass, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous.

You must be kidding.

[Brunodf]

MJ
Magic
Russel
Bird
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem

[StrengthAndHonor]

MJ
Magic
Russel
Bird
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem
Going by this list. Hakeem will be the odd man out. Which I dont have a problem with tbh. He had 2 crazy years and then went out ans silently ended his career.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The NBA was Bill Russell's playground. He's much more iconic than Wilt tbh.

The NBA was a bunch of 6'5" honkies trying to guard Russell at the time and had like 8 teams total. Russell is a rich man's Ben Wallace.

[timvp]

Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the play:lolffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good.

LeBron > Hakeem, already.

[JoeTait75]

Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the play:lolffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good.

LeBron > Hakeem, already.

Hakeem dominated the '86 Celtics frontcourt, one of the best of all time, as a second-year player. It isn't his fault Ralph Sampson crapped the bed in that series or that Boston simply had a better team. Nor is it his fault Sampson got hurt and 2-3 guys from that Houston team got blackballed in subsequent years.

I have my doubts about Kobe being a top-ten all-time player, tbh...

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

Fuck Lebron

[JingleJangleJingle]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. LeBron
.
.
.
Kobe.

[stretch]

Lebron right now might be playing at a higher level than any player ever. MJ is probably the only player that has played at a level comparable to what Lebron has been able to do, in terms of his ability to affect the game in pretty much every aspect you can think of.

What's crazy is that Lebron still may get better. His jumper and post game both have been making small improvements in different ways every year.

[DAF86]

I have my doubts about Kobe being a top-ten all-time player, tbh...

Me too, tbh.

Statistically there are more than 10 players better than Kobe at their respective peaks. Longevity works in favor of Kobe (although 3 of his 5 rings were won as a second option and his individual numbers are inflated because of the fact of coming straight out of high school) but I care more about the level of play displayed at their best than the ability to sustain a good level over a longer period of time. 3 great years > 10 good years, imho.

It depends on how you look at things, if you care more about longevity Kobe > Hakeem. If you care more about peaks and importance on their respective teams success (who had to do more) Hakeem > Kobe

[Killakobe81]

Magic for sure... he should not be in the top 10 anyway but if we give it a pass, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous.

You don't know much about ball if you believe this

[Killakobe81]

Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the play:lolffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good.

LeBron > Hakeem, already.

LeBron may be better already but the hate on Hakeem is blasphemous

[O.J. Simpson]

Magic for sure... he should not be in the top 10 anyway but if we give it a pass, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous.
Another atrocious take. Explain yourself.

[StrengthAndHonor]

The NBA was a bunch of 6'5" honkies trying to guard Russell at the time and had like 8 teams total. Russell is a rich man's Ben Wallace.

How is this relevant? :lol

[Richie]

I think history should not be kind to Kobe. Was a horrible team mate, missed the playoffs in his prime due to his ego kicking Shaq out of LA, and now is probably going to miss the playoffs in the biggest bust team of all time.

[Raven]

Another atrocious take. Explain yourself.

what is there to explain, Wilt, Russell, MJ i think should be obvious. Bird is very debatable but in my mind he was the better player (more points, more rebounds, better defender), Oscar Robertson had seasons with triple doubles (only one credited, but still). KAJ should also be obvious..

[StrengthAndHonor]

Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the play:lolffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good.

LeBron > Hakeem, already.

I actually feel the same way. It's weird but the Olajuwon love fest is crazy. He had 2 amazing seasons but there wasn't a lot going on for Olajuwon after those championship years. It's like the dude was just lucky MJ retired for a brief period of time.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Me too, tbh.

Statistically there are more than 10 players better than Kobe at their respective peaks. Longevity works in favor of Kobe (although 3 of his 5 rings were won as a second option and his individual numbers are inflated because of the fact of coming straight out of high school) but I care more about the level of play displayed at their best than the ability to sustain a good level over a longer period of time. 3 great years > 10 good years, imho.

It depends on how you look at things, if you care more about longevity Kobe > Hakeem. If you care more about peaks and importance on their respective teams success (who had to do more) Hakeem > Kobe

I'd have to take Kobe's longevity to be quite honest. Kobe never had a dominant Finals performance like Olajuwon but his overall playoff numbers are great. Kobe's a model for consistency, discipline and work ethic. It only helps his case considering he's one of the best scorer, a multiple MVP and a 5 time champion in the process.

His career mirrors Karl Malone except he has championsips.

[dunkman]

Hakeem was much better then Amare, because he always played elite defense. His offensive game got improved over the years, until he reached a level that made him unstoppable.

Bird totally dominated the NBA during the time he won 3 consecutive MVP's and two 'ships + 1 finals. And he was top 2, top 3 player for the rest of his career. He's unquestionable top 10, imo.

Magic is top 10, how can anyone question that.

LeBron will end as the GOAT, imo. He's much more talented then MJ and can play elite defense, something that Magic couldn't.

Kobe has no business being discussed in top 10 tbh.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I know Kobe's not a very likeable figure but you guys need to drop this "He's not in the Top 10 list" statement. Every respectable journalist out there has him there. He has all the credentials not to be considered in this list. If you're going to kick him out, at least back it up with solid evidence.

[Mal]

No doubt. There are two TOP 10 all times player in NBA currently

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

How is this relevant? :lol

It's relevant because Russell had no offensive skill or ability other than overpowering frail honkies like Dolph Schayes. He was a defensive role player on a team surrounded by HOFers

[HarlemHeat37]

As I've been saying for years, Olajuwon is the most overrated player on the Internet..his peak was elite, but his overall career has many blemishes, yet he's revered as some type of God on forums, tbh..

There's a noticeable difference between top 10 peaks and top 10 careers..longevity plays a significant factor on the list for overall careers..Kobe, for example, is a lock for the top 10 careers, but I'm not sure about top 10 peaks..Olajuwon is the opposite..

As for The King, last year's version of Lebron was #2 on the peak list IMO, only behind '91 Jordan..

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I still say Russell and Wilt are the most overrated players of all time.....but Hakeem is definitely overrated too.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't try to rate them anymore..most people didn't watch them play, even through old tapes, and basketball was completely different at that point in time..what's the point?..

[Lincoln]

Is dirk a top 20 player

[Lincoln]

The nigga carried his team on his FUCKING back, had one of the toughest roads in recent memory, and was clutch as fuck in multiple games.

And would have 2 rings if the biggest officiating travesty in modern sports history didn't happen.

[HarlemHeat37]

Yes, Dirk is top 20 career-wise, and possibly peak-wise, off the top of my head..

[irishock]

Jordan
Bryant
Magic
KAJ
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Tim
LBJ

[StrengthAndHonor]

It's relevant because Russell had no offensive skill or ability other than overpowering frail honkies like Dolph Schayes. He was a defensive role player on a team surrounded by HOFers

Bill's competition at the time was not too great but he faced the mythical Wilt Chamberlain 142 times during a 10 year span. Russell's Celtics beat any of Wilt's team 10-1 in playoff series. He was also the only player in that era to hold Wilt Chamberlain almost 50% off his scoring average, despite Wilt being 3 inches, 50 lbs bigger than Russell. So, no, Bill didn't relied on Dolph Schayes to build his legacy.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I don't try to rate them anymore..most people didn't watch them play, even through old tapes, and basketball was completely different at that point in time..what's the point?..

I agree with this but some are just too obvious.

Mike at # 1, Magic at # 2, Bird within the Top 5-7 and Shaq with at least a ranking no lower than 8.

[StrengthAndHonor]

So, most reasonable posters so far has Olajuwon being replaced by Lebron. Sounds good to me.

[Killakobe81]

As I've been saying for years, Olajuwon is the most overrated player on the Internet..his peak was elite, but his overall career has many blemishes, yet he's revered as some type of God on forums, tbh..

There's a noticeable difference between top 10 peaks and top 10 careers..longevity plays a significant factor on the list for overall careers..Kobe, for example, is a lock for the top 10 careers, but I'm not sure about top eaks..Olajuwon is the opposite..
As for The King, last year's version of Lebron was #2 on the peak list IMO, only behind '91 Jordan..
I agree 100% peak Hakem and Shaq shit on Duncan and Kobe ...career I'm taking Timmy and KB. That is what is so amazing about MJ, LeBron (so far) and Kareem they have great peaks and amazingly consistent careers. Not sure I'm ready to say LeBron peak of last year is over Shaq in 2000 but he is probably third but LeBron last year was close.

[Captivus]

I think KAJ is the second, behind MJ.

[Killakobe81]

I also place Jabbar a close 2nd ...LeBron would need to pass Kareem before MJ ...

[StrengthAndHonor]

I agree 100% peak Hakem and Shaq shit on Duncan and Kobe ...career I'm taking Timmy and KB. That is what is so amazing about MJ, LeBron (so far) and Kareem and Le have great peaks and amazing careers. Not sure I'm ready to say LeBron peak of last year is over Shaq in 2000 but he is probably third but LeBron last year was close.

Nah, I wouldn't say its even close. This is not a knock on Lebron, he had an easier path going to the Finals last year than any of the aforementioned players. I think Shaq had the most dominating performance in todays generation followed by MJ's performance in 92-93 and Duncan in 2003

[StrengthAndHonor]

I also place Jabbar a close 2nd ...LeBron would need to pass Kareem before MJ ...

So weird coming from a Laker fan. Magic was much more valuable and iconic than Jabbar. He was justa better basketball player IMO. And the way he won those titles are just remarkable, particularly the 1980 NBA Finals.

[Killakobe81]

So weird coming from a Laker fan. Magic was much more valuable and iconic than Jabbar. He was justa better basketball player IMO. And the way he won those titles are just remarkable, particularly the 1980 NBA Finals.

I love Magic ... But HIV cut the tail off his CAREER which is the key word. I think Magic is one of the all time greatest leaders in team sports ..but his career though more dynamic and more impactful on the league still doesn't match KAREEM. HE IS MY ALL TIME FAVORITE player but just being honest ...also great business man but shitty analyst.

[Koolaid_Man]

Possibly even Top 5. Who gets bumped out of the Top 5 or 10 list, 5-6 years from now?

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. KAJ
4. Bill Russell
5. Larry Bird

IMO those are a lock. They don't necessarily have the best numbers when it comes to statistic but I fell like they brought a LOT to the game of basketball, they are proven winners and are all household names (With the exception of Russell perhaps because he's not in the spotlight so much). Overall, they're impact are irreplaceable. Newer generation will say Bird doesn't believe but I disagree. Without Bird, Magic and the Lakers story wouldve been a lot lsee interesting in the 80's.



The remaining 5 IMO are interchangeable.

6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Olajuwon


Lebron's a Top 12 player right now. Its only a matter of time before he moves up in the 30k points, 7.5k assists and 10k rebound club. All that with possibly 5 MVP's and 2-3 championship rings.

The way he's dominating right now and how his legacy is shaping up, he's really making the rest of the 3 in that list pale in comparison (Duncan, Olajuwon and Kobe)


Kobe has a chance to still cement his spot. If he wins another title and finals MVP along with his scoring accolades, he may very well be solid 8th or 9th spot in that list.


So who does Lebron replace in that Top 10 list when his career is all said and done?

Hey Fellas News Flash:

None Of Your Opinions Count :lol

[Killakobe81]

So weird coming from a Laker fan. Magic was much more valuable and iconic than Jabbar. He was justa better basketball player IMO. And the way he won those titles are just remarkable, particularly the 1980 NBA Finals.

Jabbar also won multiple MVPs before the award became bullshit

[StrengthAndHonor]

Hey Fellas News Flash:

None Of Your Opinions Count :lol


It does count. You'd be surprised how an internet buzz can make so much impact. Matter of fact, every time I watch people on ESPN, they seem to just go with the flow on what's trending on the web and other social sites. :lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

I love Magic ... But HIV cut the tail off his CAREER which is the key word. I think Magic is one of the all time greatest leaders in team sports ..but his career though more dynamic and more impactful on the league still doesn't match KAREEM. HE IS MY ALL TIME FAVORITE player but just being honest ...also great business man but shitty analyst.


Yeah, but there's no glam and story behind Kareem's accomplishments. I feel like he came and did his job and that was that. He's probably the most unimpressive candidate in that list, followed by Duncan. There's just no excitement in him. Basketball afterall is still an entertainment, but I give him my respect simply because of the sheer awesomeness of his numbers.

[Koolaid_Man]

Lebron is also playing in an era where the competition (especially at his position) is really truly watered down compared to the 90's and early to mid 2000's....Lebron in reality isn't doing anything we haven't seen before..he has a basic power dunk and he's gifted physically - sorry but I can't give him points for his DNA..if he was doing this in previous era dominated by the Bulls, Lakers, Spurs, and Lakers again then I'd consider it...hell even if he played in a tough Western conference in that era I would consider it..even if he played against the Knicks teams that MJ went through I'd consider it...I doubt this cat is as mentally strong as MJ was to get through those hardcore Knick teams..the dude is playing in a gravy train era right now...there's no tough guys left... but tbh I'm not overly impressed with the guy...when he was in a Jordan situation in Cleveland he left...if Wade goes down this year and he's playing with only Bosh, Lebron will get exposed yet again...

Even with one fucking ring he will go down as top 10 due to the NBA Hype machine....I'm betting on the Knicks to knock the Heat out...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Bill's competition at the time was not too great but he faced the mythical Wilt Chamberlain 142 times during a 10 year span. Russell's Celtics beat any of Wilt's team 10-1 in playoff series. He was also the only player in that era to hold Wilt Chamberlain almost 50% off his scoring average, despite Wilt being 3 inches, 50 lbs bigger than Russell. So, no, Bill didn't relied on Dolph Schayes to build his legacy.
Like I said, he was a defensive role player who defended Wilt well. This post does nothing to dispute the fact he had no game on offense.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Yeah, it would be interesting to see how the Heat would fare against the 2008 celtics, the Spurs and Bulls. I agree though, I think this season is pretty weak. You have the Clippers and OKC in the west and pretty much none in the East other than Miami. Knicks are pretenders though.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Like I said, he was a defensive role player who defended Wilt well. This post does nothing to dispute the fact he had no game on offense.
So first you argue that Bill built his legacy facing Honkies, I just proved that's not the case so you drift away and criticize his offense lmao. Whatever dude.

[scanry]

LeBron will end as the GOAT, imo. He's much more talented then MJ and can play elite defense, something that Magic couldn't.


Guy Lebron is not more talented than MJ and It's not even close.

He's much more athletic though.

[scanry]

Kool just bitter cause his boy got pushed aside by the King.

Son Lebron is on another level at the moment and he's making it look effortless ala 1991 Jordan.

[Arcadian]

I think the top 10 should be (in order of when they played):

Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
LeBron James

Comments on controversial issues...

Do you value the peak or longevity? I think both are important, but peak performance should be considered more. This is a list of the best players in history, not necessarily the most-accomplished players. To me, the word "best" (or "greatest") entails the fundamental skills and abilities of the player. If a certain player exhibited amazing skill level for a short period of time, that should be given heavy consideration in a discussion about the most skilled players.

Should Russell be there? Everyone feels very strongly about the issue one way or the other. In particular, everyone takes a side in the Wilt vs. Russell debate. I am squarely on the Wilt side. I consider Wilt to be the true overall GOAT. In terms of skill, there is just no doubt that Wilt was better than Russell. Russell had better teams; Wilt was the better player.

Should Hakeem be there? This depends heavily on whether you value the peak or longevity. Since I give more weight to the peak, I think Hakeem should definitely be there. He was simply a complete basketball player in the mid-90s. He had every skill a center should have, teams were built around him, he dominated individually, and his teams were dominant as a result.

Should Kobe be there? In general, I give big players priority over small players. In order for Kobe to make the list, he has to beat one of the following: Oscar, Bird, Magic, Jordan, or Lebron. In my opinion, he doesn't beat any of them overall. He is certainly one of the top 10 scorers of all time, but when you include other factors (rebounding, assists, defense), he moves down the list considerably.

Should LeBron be there (i.e. the initial question of this topic)? After last year, I think he should. The 2011-12 NBA season was for LeBron what the 2002-03 season was for Tim Duncan: utterly legendary. He led his team to a championship, won Finals MVP, won regular season MVP, made the All-Defensive team, and was the most efficient player in the league. Very few people have done all that in one year. LeBron is among them, and hence he is among the top 10 players ever.

Older players or newer players? There is definitely a recency bias in how we all view players. That is, we tend to remember recent players more vividly, so we think they were better than older players. There are many factors to consider when comparing across generations, but I do think the recency bias can be justified to some extent. I have more players from 1980-forward in my list, but I think people should very carefully consider some of the older players before they make that assumption.

Other players who deserve consideration: Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Bob Pettit, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Moses Malone.

[HarlemHeat37]

Kobe would take a shit all over Oscar Robertson or Jerry West, tbh..

[Stalin]

The NBA was a bunch of 6'5" honkies trying to guard Russell at the time and had like 8 teams total. Russell is a rich man's Ben Wallace.



Co sign

[Stalin]

So first you argue that Bill built his legacy facing Honkies, I just proved that's not the case so you drift away and criticize his offense lmao. Whatever dude.


You proved he faced one that wasnt a honky, but the majority of his competition, was against 6'5 honkies in an 8 team league in the 50's without free agency on stacked teams, where all he had to do was monkeyball on defense. You're only as good as your competition, scrah.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Stalin putting StrengthAndHonor through the gulag

[StrengthAndHonor]

You proved he faced one that wasnt a honky, but the majority of his competition, was against 6'5 honkies in an 8 team league in the 50's without free agency on stacked teams, where all he had to do was monkeyball on defense. You're only as good as your competition, scrah.

We just have to agree to disagree. Wth is a scrah lol.

[dunkman]

Guy Lebron is not more talented than MJ and It's not even close.

He's much more athletic though.

MJ could play SG and SF (SG best ever, SF good). LeBron can play SG good and SF as one of the best ever. However, LeBron can also play PF at elite level, and PG like an all-star PG.

[Stalin]

Stalin putting StrengthAndHonor through the gulag



:lol:lol:lol

[dunkman]

About Russell, in some years people will look at Duncan's numbers and they will say Kobe was better. But imo that's not the case, Kobe's more focused in individual acomplishments so his stats look good on paper, but he needs prime Shaq or prime Gasol/Odom/Bynum to win championships. In the end, the questions remains if the Lakers won that 5 titles because of Shaq and the defensive attention he commanded, or because of Kobe. In the same way the Lakers bigman rotation in 09 and 10, gave the Lakers huge rebounding differential in every game and highly efficient offense, to bail Kobe out.

While I didn't saw Russell play, it seems to me that he knew exactly how to win and what has to be done to win all those championships.

[Stalin]

We just have to agree to disagree. Wth is a scrah lol.



What is there to dissagree, scrah? Everyone knows honkies are shit at basketball. All the Africans in today's nba can attest to that and Glorified Ben Wallace faced a whole league of them.

[StrengthAndHonor]

What is there to dissagree, scrah? Everyone knows honkies are shit at basketball. All the Africans in today's nba can attest to that and Glorified Ben Wallace faced a whole league of them.

Don't know about that. White coaches are still running this league.

[Stalin]

Don't know about that. White coaches are still running this league.


Of course you know. Sure the coaches are white, but who's the running majority on the court?

[StrengthAndHonor]

Comments on controversial issues...

Do you value the peak or longevity? I think both are important, but peak performance should be considered more. This is a list of the best players in history, not necessarily the most-accomplished players. To me, the word "best" (or "greatest") entails the fundamental skills and abilities of the player. If a certain player exhibited amazing skill level for a short period of time, that should be given heavy consideration in a discussion about the most skilled players.
.

Just to play devils advocate, Kobe's probably one of the most fundamentally sound player in that list along with Jordan and Duncan. Based on your reasoning, Kobe should be in the Top 10.




Should Hakeem be there? This depends heavily on whether you value the peak or longevity. Since I give more weight to the peak, I think Hakeem should definitely be there. He was simply a complete basketball player in the mid-90s. He had every skill a center should have, teams were built around him, he dominated individually, and his teams were dominant as a result..

Agree, so why shouldn't be Kobe in the list considering he's basically one of the most complete basketball player of his generation?



Should Kobe be there? In general, I give big players priority over small players. In order for Kobe to make the list, he has to beat one of the following: Oscar, Bird, Magic, Jordan, or Lebron. In my opinion, he doesn't beat any of them overall. He is certainly one of the top 10 scorers of all time, but when you include other factors (rebounding, assists, defense), he moves down the list considerably...


I feel like people's standards for Kobe are always a notch higher. They talk about his assist numbers but his average has been above the league average for a shooting guard since like, forever with the exception of Wade who was listed as a SG but was functioning as a PG for the Heat during that 3 year stretch. His rebounding numbers though not great is nothing to sneeze at for someone who plays that position (MJ's rebound average is only a hair better). Defensively, yes, he's been overrated but he did play elite defense for 3-4 seasons, all this during their championship run.

And what do you mean beat Oscar, Bird, Magic, Lebron? In what aspect? Because one on one, we all know Kobe would shit on these guys :lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

Of course you know. Sure the coaches are white, but who's the running majority on the court?
Well I always give the game generals credit for the win. I mean, fuck, you're Stalin. Who gets all the credit for those executions? You or your soldiers? Get your shit together scrah.

[unforeseen]

Not worth reading.




Lebron is also playing in an era where the competition (especially at his position) is really truly watered down compared to the 90's and early to mid 2000's....Lebron in reality isn't doing anything we haven't seen before..he has a basic power dunk and he's gifted physically - sorry but I can't give him points for his DNA..if he was doing this in previous era dominated by the Bulls, Lakers, Spurs, and Lakers again then I'd consider it...hell even if he played in a tough Western conference in that era I would consider it..even if he played against the Knicks teams that MJ went through I'd consider it...I doubt this cat is as mentally strong as MJ was to get through those hardcore Knick teams..the dude is playing in a gravy train era right now...there's no tough guys left... but tbh I'm not overly impressed with the guy...when he was in a Jordan situation in Cleveland he left...if Wade goes down this year and he's playing with only Bosh, Lebron will get exposed yet again...

Even with one fucking ring he will go down as top 10 due to the NBA Hype machine....I'm betting on the Knicks to knock the Heat out...

[Stalin]

Well I always give the game generals credit for the win. I mean, fuck, you're Stalin. Who gets all the credit for those executions? You or your soldiers? Get your shit together scrah.



:lol well played, son

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol watered down...if anything is watered down, its jordan and the jordan stoppers...lol

[DMC]

lol James is no lock for top 10 GOAT.

[Clipper Nation]

I'm not overly impressed with the guy...when he was in a Jordan situation in Cleveland he left...

:lol "A Jordan situation in Cleveland"

Who was LeBron's Pippen in Cleveland? Who was his Rodman?

[Arcadian]

Just to play devils advocate, Kobe's probably one of the most fundamentally sound player in that list along with Jordan and Duncan. Based on your reasoning, Kobe should be in the Top 10.

He is, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Kobe should be in the top 10. All it takes is for 10 other guys to be even better. Frankly, he might be my #11 if I had to rank them. He just barely misses out. No matter how you cut it, several great players have to miss out because of this arbitrary designation of "top 10." (Well, it's not totally arbitrary, as humans have 10 fingers, but it seems arbitrary in the context of listing basketball players.)


And what do you mean beat Oscar, Bird, Magic, Lebron? In what aspect?

I meant "beat" them in the sense of ranking higher on a list.


Because one on one, we all know Kobe would shit on these guys :lol

I don't (and can't) know that. But I'm not going to assume he would.


Kobe would take a shit all over Oscar Robertson or Jerry West, tbh..

I don't know that either. In the case of Robertson, I highly doubt it. I would rank Kobe above West, though.

[FkLA]

I lold at 'possibly Top 5'. Open your eyes niggas, we have never seen a player with the combination of speed, size, and strength that King James has...and its damn hard for me to imagine that its humanly possible for a more physically gifted player to come along. Add the Kings courtvision/awareness and how coordinated he is to the equation, and the likelihood of another LeBron coming along becomes that much smaller. Not an MJ hater but the King will go down as the GOAT. Kobe and even Timmy D will go down as blips during the LeBron era too tbh.

[FkLA]

BTW Dirk is borderline Top 20 imo. Somewhere in the 20-25 range, mainly because of his defense and because at no point (even during 2011 or his MVP season) was he unanimously considered the best player in the league like the other greats were.

[irishock]

:lol "A Jordan situation in Cleveland"

Who was LeBron's Pippen in Cleveland? Who was his Rodman?

Ilgauskas and Mo Williams.

[mavs>spurs]

dirk is definitely top 15, fkla is an idiot who thinks that boris diaw is better than david lee

[Clipper Nation]

Ilgauskas and Mo Williams.
:lmao I rest my case... the only comparison between LeBron's Cavs and Jordan's Bulls is the litany of shit teams Jordan lost in the playoffs with before Pippen showed up....

[FkLA]

:lmao at Dirk being Top 15

[DAF86]

What do all the great ones have in common except Kobe? They were all highly efficient (for their eras. In the early years 40% from the field was considered good)

MJ-50%
Bird-50%
Magic-52%
Wilt-54%
Shaq-58%
Duncan-51%
Hakeem-51%
Kareem-56%
Oscar-49%
Moses-49%
Lebron-49%

Kobe-45%

Bryant isn't a top ten player all-time, imho. It most definitely isn't a lock like most say.

[HarlemHeat37]

Most greats have won Finals MVP + regular season MVP in the same season, that's the biggest difference, tbh..it's a necessity for the elite..

[baseline bum]

LeBron has easily been the best player in the league every single season since 06-07, and in 04-05 and 05-06 he was top 4 at worst. His title last season easily pushes him into the top 10 right now, and he still has probably 4 more prime-level seasons after this one. I'd be shocked if he didn't retire as the undisputed greatest forward to ever play the game.

[LkrFan]

Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the play:lolffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good. LeBron > Hakeem, already.How soon have you forgotten:
hW4uXlRGAF0&desktop_uri
I'm sure the Admiral hasn't. :lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

These lists are impossible to please everyone, so I'll only name the Top 2--which are in-fucking-disputable--if you have a brain. 1. Michael Jordan. 2. Magic Johnson. Fill the rest out as you please.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Most greats have won Finals MVP + regular season MVP in the same season, that's the biggest difference, tbh..it's a necessity for the elite..
This. I'm glad others have figured out that this is the biggest accolade one can get in the NBA. The fact Kobe doesn't have it shows why he's not top 10.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Kobe is the exemption. He has back to back Finals MVP's and a Regular Season MVP to boot. He has those hardware.


Also, Lebron has more Finals losses (Both horrible performances) than Wins at this point of his career, I'm not sure how you guys overlooked that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Kobe is the exemption. He has back to back Finals MVP's and a Regular Season MVP to boot. He has those hardware.


Also, Lebron has more Finals losses (Both horrible performances) than Wins at this point of his career, I'm not sure how you guys overlooked that.

The "finals losses" argument is retarded. Making the finals and losing is better than what 28 other teams did. The fact he made the finals with his team in 2007 is an accolade in and of itself.

Kobe also isn't the exemption. Winning finals MVP and MVP in the same year is much harder than anything else. It means that in addition to winning a championship your team depended on you enough to win regular season MVP. The reason it rarely ever happens is because the winner of regular season MVP is usually on a team too one dimensional and dependent on him to win a championship.

The 2009 and 2010 Lakers presented matchup problems because of their front court, not because of Kobe. The trio of Bynum, Gasol, Odom is what won those two championships.

[weebo]

The only reason Larry Bird is considered a top 5 NBA player is because he's a honky. He was the bait and hook to get the rest of the honkies in America to watch a black sport. It's laughable, even nowadays, people still consider this clown a top 10 player, let alone a top 5.

[dunkman]

The only reason Larry Bird is considered a top 5 NBA player is because he's a honky. He was the bait and hook to get the rest of the honkies in America to watch a black sport. It's laughable, even nowadays, people still consider this clown a top 10 player, let alone a top 5.

No, its not for that reason. He was as good as Magic or MJ. If you consider them top 10, Bird is there too.

[StrengthAndHonor]

The "finals losses" argument is retarded. Making the finals and losing is better than what 28 other teams did. The fact he made the finals with his team in 2007 is an accolade in and of itself..

The not winning Finals MVP and Regular season argument at the same year is equally retarded. Fact is Kobe won those awards while 28 of the best players of each team were at home watching him hoist those trophies. :lol



Kobe also isn't the exemption. Winning finals MVP and MVP in the same year is much harder than anything else. It means that in addition to winning a championship your team depended on you enough to win regular season MVP. The reason it rarely ever happens is because the winner of regular season MVP is usually on a team too one dimensional and dependent on him to win a championship...

Regular season is a media driven award. You shouldn't put much merit to this award. Winning Back to Back Finals MVP is actually quite harder. IN this list, all of them have won back to back Finals MVP. Guess who hasn't won both? :lol





The 2009 and 2010 Lakers presented matchup problems because of their front court, not because of Kobe. The trio of Bynum, Gasol, Odom is what won those two championships.

Bynum didn't even play in those series. GTFO here lol.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I don't even have a horse in this race. I don't even like both Lebron and Kobe but some of the logic here is just comical :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

The problem with your logic is that you can cherry-pick stats/accolades and there will be a limited number of legends that fit the criteria..

However, regarding Finals MVP + MVP in the same season, EVERY true great has accomplished this feat, except Kobe..not just a few, but EVERY player that appears on most top 10 lists nowadays..

Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell and Wilt(if the award had existed), Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Lebron have all done it..why does Kobe get a pass?..

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The not winning Finals MVP and Regular season argument at the same year is equally retarded. Fact is Kobe won those awards while 28 of the best players of each team were at home watching him hoist those trophies. :lol
So you're admitting it's a retarded argument. Glad we cleared that up.

Kobe also missed the playoffs and got knocked out of the first round twice during his prime, the last time Lebron didn't make it past the 1st round was his 2nd season in the NBA.


Regular season is a media driven award. You shouldn't put much merit to this award. Winning Back to Back Finals MVP is actually quite harder. IN this list, all of them have won back to back Finals MVP. Guess who hasn't won both? :lol
Winning back to back finals MVPs is just as much about being on a stacked team as it is being a great player. Winning regular season MVP and finals MVP in the same year requires being a great player (look at the list of people who have done it).


Bynum didn't even play in those series. GTFO here lol.

Now you're revising history. Bynum didn't even play in those series?

2009 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906040LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906070LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906090ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906110ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906140ORL.html

2010 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006060LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006100BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006130BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006150LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006170LAL.html

Bynum played in every game in both series. Keep making stuff up.

(here comes the part where you move the goal posts and say, "I meant he didn't play figuratively!")

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I don't even have a horse in this race. I don't even like both Lebron and Kobe but some of the logic here is just comical :lol
Yeah, revisionist history like, "Bynum didn't even play in those series!" is great logic.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Kobe also missed the playoffs and got knocked out of the first round twice during his prime, the last time Lebron didn't make it past the 1st round was his 2nd season in the NBA.!")



Kobe missing the playoffs once in his 17 career has no weight in this argument tbh. That's just grasping straws bud. Its like using Lebron's failure to elevate the Cavaliers in the post season (who were heavily favored to win the East with the best record in the league) only to lose against a lower seed. Its moot.




Winning back to back finals MVPs is just as much about being on a stacked team as it is being a great player. Winning regular season MVP and finals MVP in the same year requires being a great player (look at the list of people who have done it).!")

Lol. All NBA Finals MVP played on a stack team, with the exception of Houston in 93-04. Again, I think winningback to back FMVP's has more weight than winning a Regular Season and Finals MVP once in his career. Jury is out this year if Lebron can bring a stack team of his own and will them to a championship. Otherwise, he'll be viewed as the guy who took advantage of a weak Eastern Conference and had that one magical season, like Olajuwon.



Now you're revising history. Bynum didn't even play in those series?

2009 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906040LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906070LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906090ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906110ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906140ORL.html

2010 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006060LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006100BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006130BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006150LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006170LAL.html

Bynum played in every game in both series. Keep making stuff up.

(here comes the part where you move the goal posts and say, "I meant he didn't play figuratively!")


It was a tongue in cheek comment. Bynum was about as useful as Larry Hughes in the NBA Finals is all I'm saying. You're probably better off using Fisher instead of Bynum to defend your argument.

[StrengthAndHonor]

However, regarding Finals MVP + MVP in the same season, EVERY true great has accomplished this feat, except Kobe..not just a few, but EVERY player that appears on most top 10 lists nowadays..

Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell and Wilt(if the award had existed), Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Lebron have all done it..why does Kobe get a pass?..

Kobe gets a pass because of his unique situation. MVP is a popularity award and Kobe is quite possibly the most hated figure in this era so its no surprise he only has one in his career.

Again, all those players except Wilt have experienced the same success. Which is to win back to back champions and win the series MVP on these series. Add Kobe to that list and its easy to see why he belongs there.

[baseline bum]

(here comes the part where you move the goal posts and say, "I meant he didn't play figuratively!")

:lol



It was a tongue in cheek comment. Bynum was about as useful as Larry Hughes in the NBA Finals is all I'm saying. You're probably better off using Fisher instead of Bynum to defend your argument.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Kobe missing the playoffs once in his 17 career has no weight in this argument tbh. That's just grasping straws bud. Its like using Lebron's failure to elevate the Cavaliers in the post season (who were heavily favored to win the East with the best record in the league) only to lose against a lower seed. Its moot doug-e.
I've said countless times Lebron's performance against the Celtics in 2010 is right next to his performance against Dallas in 2011 as the biggest stains on his resume.

The 2005-2007 Lakers totally have weight in this argument. That was a 3 year stretch of Kobe's career where his team was all but irrelevant.




Lol. All NBA Finals MVP played on a stack team, with the exception of Houston in 93-04. Again, I think winningback to back FMVP's has more weight than winning a Regular Season and Finals MVP once in his career. Jury is out this year if Lebron can bring a stack team of his own and will them to a championship. Otherwise, he'll be viewed as the guy who took advantage of a weak Eastern Conference.
Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, KAJ, and Wilt Chamberlain never won back to back finals MVP. Does that make Kobe better than them (not rhetorical, serious question)? It's an award that's based largely off factors not having to do with the individual. Winning regular season MVP and finals MVP in the same year is something all of the greats have done that's more a testament to individual greatness than it is team greatness.



It was a tongue in cheek comment. Bynum was about as useful as Larry Hughes in the NBA Finals is all I'm saying.
Looks like I called the, "I said it figuratively!" goal post move.

You decided to harp on Bynum (and revise history) because you had no way of responding to the fact that the biggest matchup problem the 2009 and 2010 Lakers posed wasn't Kobe by any stretch of the imagination, it was their front court. The strength of the 2009-2010 Lakers was having a huge advantage up front. Yes, Kobe was the best individual player, but the trio of Bynum Gasol and Odom gave Kobe the same dominant front court he had with Shaq from 2000-2002.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol So Kobe is the exception, because he is "hated" :lol..

Kobe is one of the most media-protected players in NBA history..he has a cult-like following..

Every time he's the "exception" to a rule or an argument, which happens quite often, his fans claim he's hated and there is a bias against him:lol..

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol So Kobe is the exception, because he is "hated" :lol..

Kobe is one of the most media-protected players in NBA history..he has a cult-like following..

Every time he's the "exception" to a rule or an argument, which happens quite often, his fans claim he's hated and there is a bias against him:lol..
:lol according to Al-Quobe, he's hated because he didn't win MVP in 2006 on a 45 win team, when the last time someone won MVP on a sub-50 win team was Moses Malone in 1982 :lol

:lol they're so convinced his stat whoring festival in 2006 was an all time spectacular performance for the ages that it warranted the media doing something it hasn't done since 1982, so the only viable reason he didn't win MVP according to their extremely narcissistic logic is because he's hated :lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

Dont' know about media-protected. Almost every news outlet criticizes him ever since the Colorado incident and Phil Jackson's book.

Now, protected by his fans? Then yeah, no argument there. But I've never seen him protected by the media. The ratio is against him. For every 1 good article, he'll have 4 that completely puts him down. Heck, almost every LA sports journalist have nothing good to say about him (TJ Simmers, Adande etc)

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lol according to Al-Quobe, he's hated because he didn't win MVP in 2006 on a 45 win team, when the last time someone won MVP on a sub-50 win team was Moses Malone in 1982 :lol

:lol they're so convinced his stat whoring festival in 2006 was an all time spectacular performance for the ages that it warranted the media doing something it hasn't done since 1982, so the only viable reason he didn't win MVP is because he's hated :lol

Kobe definitely doesn't derseve to even sniff that 2006 MVP award. :lol But so does Steve Nash
:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao:lmao:lmao Adande has nothing good to say about Kobe? Tell me you're kidding :lmao

This entire season the media has been jerking the stat lines Kobe is putting up off while blaming the fact his team sucks on everyone other than Kobe. If you listened to what ESPN has been saying about Kobe and ignored everything else, you'd assume the Lakers have a great record given the fact they seem to think Kobe is helping a winning team win.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Kobe definitely doesn't derseve to even sniff that 2006 MVP award. :lol But so does Steve Nash
:lol
:lol bringing Steve Nash up when the argument has nothing to do with it because I'm a Suns fan and you ran out of actual arguments to present

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Kobe gets a pass because of his unique situation. MVP is a popularity award and Kobe is quite possibly the most hated figure in this era so its no surprise he only has one in his career.
Name a year other than 2008 when he deserved MVP but didn't win it. I want a specific example of when Kobe being hated robbed him of an MVP award.


Again, all those players except Wilt have experienced the same success. Which is to win back to back champions and win the series MVP on these series. Add Kobe to that list and its easy to see why he belongs there.
No, they haven't. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Duncan have not won back to back finals MVP.

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lol bringing Steve Nash up when the argument has nothing to do with it because I'm a Suns fan and you ran out of actual arguments to present

I don't even think you're a Suns fan tbh. :lol No Suns fans would ever one ride Lebron this much.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I don't even think you're a Suns fan tbh. :lol No Suns fans would ever one ride Lebron this much.

:lol going off on another tangent ignoring the content of the post
:lol bringing Steve Nash up in a thread about all time greats

[StrengthAndHonor]

This entire season the media has been jerking the stat lines Kobe is putting up off while blaming the fact his team sucks on everyone other than Kobe. If you listened to what ESPN has been saying about Kobe and ignored everything else, you'd assume the Lakers have a great record given the fact they seem to think Kobe is helping a winning team win.


Nope. All points towards Kobe's defense as the culprit. I mean, ESPN has a tracker of the Lakers record when Kobe scores 30 or more points this season :lol Imagine that.

[Clipper Nation]

Al-Quobe

:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao

:lol that was a Harlem creation, tbh

[StrengthAndHonor]

Name a year other than 2008 when he deserved MVP but didn't win it. I want a specific example of when Kobe being hated robbed him of an MVP award..

2009 possibly. Despite shooting better (TS%) he lowered his scoring volume and stuck to the same game plan which helped the Lakers win 65 games that year and going all the way to NBA Finals. He actually deserved the MVP that year but Lebron ended up winning the award only to lose to a 5 seed Magic team. But yea, that's quite possible one those year where the media decided one MVP is enough.




No, they haven't. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Duncan have not won back to back finals MVP.[/QUOTE]

[Clipper Nation]

Name a year other than 2008 when he deserved MVP but didn't win it.

Son, he didn't even deserve it in 2008, CP3 did...

[StrengthAndHonor]

Name a year other than 2008 when he deserved MVP but didn't win it. I want a specific example of when Kobe being hated robbed him of an MVP award.


No, they haven't. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Duncan have not won back to back finals MVP.

Bird did, the rest didn't which shows Kobe actually belongs to an even more exclusive list (MJ, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq Back to back FMVP recipients)

Thanks dude.:lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

Son, he didn't even deserve it in 2008, CP3 did...

It couldve gone both ways. Playing on the same conference however, their last meeting during that regular season was practically going to determine whose the MVP ( I know its shallow but during that time, it was huge). The Lakers won that game and Kobe had a stellar game. That win also puts the Lakers record a game better than the Hornets.

[Koolaid_Man]

Son, he didn't even deserve it in 2008, CP3 did...

since it's written in stone that my Lakers aren't doing diddly squat this year...I want to use CP3 and/ or Durant to do my dirty work for me...if either one of those sissy ass cucks can eliminate the Spurs and then take out the Heat I may re-consider how I view them...but that's the criteria...Beat Duncan and beat Lebron and I will add them to my top 5 GOAT list * (see footnote) right behind Kobe...

* adding them to my Goat list is guaranteed to last a minmium of 1 year...I will even insure my GOAT listing to make sure it's protected...:toast

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

2009 possibly. Despite shooting better (TS%) he lowered his scoring volume and stuck to the same game plan which helped the Lakers win 65 games that year and going all the way to NBA Finals. He actually deserved the MVP that year but Lebron ended up winning the award only to lose to a 5 seed Magic team. But yea, that's quite possible one those year where the media decided one MVP is enough.
More revisionist history. The Magic were a 59 win 3 seed. Let me guess, you saying they were a 5 seed was a tongue in cheek comment not to be taken literally?

MVP is a regular season award, so how in the hell is what the Cavs/Lakers did in the playoffs relevant to your argument? Lebron losing to the Magic is completely irrelevant to the MVP award, it's not something that's decided in hindsight. Lebron's team won more games, so Kobe's team winning 65 games is a week argument. Lebron dominated Kobe in every which way statistically that year carrying a much weaker supporting cast to more regular season wins (which is what's used be MVP award voters).

So basically, your argument is that hatred towards Kobe prevented him from winning MVP in 2009 because the media decided the award without considering events that happened after the MVP voting took place. Got it. Makes total sense.


No, they haven't. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Duncan have not won back to back finals MVP.
:lol ignoring this

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol that's the point, you clown..

You can cherry-pick accolades and create an exclusive list, such as yours, that does not include several key legends and consensus top 10 players..

The Finals MVP + Regular Season MVP includes everybody except ONE guy:lol..why is he the only player of this group that could not accomplish this feat?..

:lol at the media hating, are you fucking kidding me?..Kobe's teammates are ALWAYS the scapegoats, how is that. En arguable?..

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Bird did, the rest didn't which shows Kobe actually belongs to an even more exclusive list (MJ, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq Back to back FMVP recipients)

Thanks dude.:lol
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/finals_mvp.html

When did Bird win back to back finals MVP? Which two years?

This is some amazingly shameless revisionist history on your part. I'm impressed.

[dunkman]

Bird did, the rest didn't which shows Kobe actually belongs to an even more exclusive list (MJ, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq Back to back FMVP recipients)

Thanks dude.:lol

The best player of the 87 and 88 Lakers was Magic. Worthy winning one of the final MVP's does mean that much, its a smaller sample then the MVP award. The best player of the 89 and 90 Pistons was Thomas, but he only got 1 finals MVP.

Should have Kobe played the right way, which means less selfish, he probably wouldn't have won the 2010 finals MVP. Kobe almost shot the Lakers down in the finals, but he got bailed out by Gasol and Artest.

The players that dominate FGA will win the finals MVP always if their team succeed in winning the championship, but that's not necessarily the best way of maximizing team success.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol at the media hating, are you fucking kidding me?..Kobe's teammates are ALWAYS the scapegoats, how is that. En arguable?..

He already explained why the media hates Kobe. In 2009, the media voted Lebron MVP over Kobe without considering the Magic Cavs series that hadn't happened yet. I'm convinced.

[StrengthAndHonor]

More revisionist history. The Magic were a 59 win 3 seed. Let me guess, you saying they were a 5 seed was a tongue in cheek comment not to be taken literally?

I stand corrected. They're a 3rd seed not 5. Must be thinking of another lower seed that beat Lebron's Cavs, Boston in 2010 but I think they may be a 4th seed.




MVP is a regular season award, so how in the hell is what the Cavs/Lakers did in the playoffs relevant to your argument? Lebron losing to the Magic is completely irrelevant to the MVP award, it's not something that's decided in hindsight. Lebron's team won more games, so Kobe's team winning 65 games is a week argument. Lebron dominated Kobe in every which way statistically that year carrying a much weaker supporting cast to more regular season wins (which is what's used be MVP award voters).?

Lebron won 1 game in a weaker conference. What a come back. And Lebron dominated Kobe in what? PER? :lol





So basically, your argument is that hatred towards Kobe prevented him from winning MVP in 2009 because the media decided the award without considering events that happened after the MVP voting took place. Got it. Makes total sense.

Kobe did not even run away with that MVP in 2008. So, In order to win another one, the buzz that year was that, under his wing, the Lakers needed to be a better team and Kobe must take that leadership in 2008 and improve upon that.


Kobe did both. The Lakers won more games in 2009 (65-58) and he matured as a player that year setting other personal goals aside (lower PPG and maintaning the same amount of FGA like his MVP yea while shooting a better percentage TS%) and ultimately winning the title the same year.

If you can't see thats not a better season then you have a problem brah.



ignoring this


Did not, I addressed it. Thanks to you, I actually have more reason to believe that Kobe now gets a pass. He's one of the few guys in the history of the league to win B2B Championships and Finals MVP. :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol not only was Lebron better than Kobe in every facet that year, but he even performed better against Orlando..38/8/8 was a legendary performance..it would have probably helped a little if he had Gasol/Odom/Jackson/Bynum, tbh..

[StrengthAndHonor]

Should have Kobe played the right way, which means less selfish, he probably wouldn't have won the 2010 finals MVP. Kobe almost shot the Lakers down in the finals, but he got bailed out by Gasol and Artest.
.
Fwiw, Gasol shot slightly worse in Game 7. Gasol was 6/16 from the field and 7/13 from the FT line.

[StrengthAndHonor]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/finals_mvp.html

When did Bird win back to back finals MVP? Which two years?

This is some amazingly shameless revisionist history on your part. I'm impressed.

So, its just Jordan, Kobe, Olajuwon and Shaq.

List just became a lot more exclusive

:lmao

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lol not only was Lebron better than Kobe in every facet that year, but he even performed better against Orlando..38/8/8 was a legendary performance..it would have probably helped a little if he had Gasol/Odom/Jackson/Bynum, tbh..


I'll give Lebron that. He did had a great series but its all pointless since they are heavily favored to win the East at the very least and he failed to elevate his 60 win team against a pedestrian team.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Please tell me more about how the Magic were a 5 seed. I'm very curious.


Lebron won 1 game in a weaker conference. What a come back.
He won more games with a much weaker supporting cast. Do you deny that?


And Lebron dominated Kobe in what? PER? :lol

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2009&p2=jamesle01&y2=2009#per_game::none

The better question would be what stat Lebron didn't dominate Kobe in :lol


Kobe did not even run away with that MVP in 2008. So, In order to win another one, the buzz that year was that, under his wing, the Lakers needed to be a better team and Kobe must take that leadership in 2008 and improve upon that.
What? How is this relevant to why he deserved it over Lebron.



Kobe did both. The Lakers won more games in 2009 (65-58) and he matured as a player that year setting other personal goals aside (lower PPG and maintaning the same amount of FGA like his MVP yea while shooting a better percentage TS%) and ultimately winning the title the same year.
You keep thinking the fact Kobe won a title in 09 is somehow relevant to the MVP award. Why?

Your argument is nothing but sentimental bullshit. This isn't the Heisman trophy, you don't get votes for stories like :crysetting personal goals aside:cry. Absolutely nothing here is an argument for why he deserved it over Lebron.


If you can't see thats not a better season then you have a problem brah.
:lmao, I have the problem because I can't see your logic about how Kobe winning a championship in 2009 is relevant to the MVP award?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So, its just Jordan, Kobe, Olajuwon and Shaq.

List just became a lot more exclusive

:lmao
Averaging triple double throughout the season is even more exclusive. Maybe we should use that criteria.

So you're admitting you revised history?

[HarlemHeat37]

He's still missing the point, too..

I can make 10 lists of exclusive accomplishments that will feature only 3-4 of these legends, excluding notable names..

The only list that includes ALL OF THEM except one guy is the Finals MVP + Regular Season MVP list..is that a coincidence?..

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'll give Lebron that. He did had a great series but its all pointless since they are heavily favored to win the East at the very least and he failed to elevate his 60 win team against a pedestrian team.

None of which is relevant to the MVP award.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

He's still missing the point, too..

I can make 10 lists of exclusive accomplishments that will feature only 3-4 of these legends, excluding notable names..

The only list that includes ALL OF THEM except one guy is the Finals MVP + Regular Season MVP list..is that a coincidence?..

He also continues to say Lebron's team losing in the playoffs is somehow relevant to the MVP award.

[DAF86]

Why are you still arguing with Narutoluva?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Why are you still arguing with Narutoluva?

Cause it's fun to see Kobe fans make stuff up and revise history.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Please tell me more about how the Magic were a 5 seed. I'm very curious.?

I just stand corrected a few posts ago. What, do you want me to sign an affidavit and have it mailed to your address? Should I swear in front of a judge or have it notarized :lol



He won more games with a much weaker supporting cast. Do you deny that?.?

In a much weaker conference as well. You're only as good as your competition bro.



,

You keep thinking the fact Kobe won a title in 09 is somehow relevant to the MVP award. Why??

I think you're having some sort of mental block. I keep saying its the regular season success. Throwing that championship argument was just a nail in the coffin to prove his intangibles did exist with the Lakers that year.


,

I have the problem because I can't see your logic about how Kobe winning a championship in 2009 is relevant to the MVP award?

You have a problem with the logic of Lakers winning more games in the regular season (1st in their conference) while Kobe shooting better that season? I've always though MVP winners are awarded by their regular season success.

[Clipper Nation]

StrengthAndHonor continuing to bring the bads per par :lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

He's still missing the point, too..

I can make 10 lists of exclusive accomplishments that will feature only 3-4 of these legends, excluding notable names..

The only list that includes ALL OF THEM except one guy is the Finals MVP + Regular Season MVP list..is that a coincidence?..


At least stick to your statement. Earlier in the thread you said Olajuwon is overrated and implied Lebron is better than him. So why then a change in direction? NOw you're questioning Kobe's inclusion in this list. Get your ish together man.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's not lakaluva, IMO..

[HarlemHeat37]

At least stick to your statement. Earlier in the thread you said Olajuwon is overrated and implied Lebron is better than him. So why then a change in direction? NOw you're questioning Kobe's inclusion in this list. Get your ish together man.

:lol How did I change direction?..I already stated that Hakeem is easily top 10 peaks and I'd still have him in the top 10 career-wise, but he's still overrated IMO..regardless, he's a consensus top player by most people, which is my point..

Stop reaching, tbh..

[DAF86]

It's not lakaluva, IMO..

Maybe, he's definitely a Lakerfan passing as a Clipperfan, which is just as bad, tbh.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Cause it's fun to see Kobe fans make stuff up and revise history.

I'm far from a Kobe fan :lol but your logic is just awful dude. I mean at least make it challenging. I'm expecting people like Jordan23Forever, MiamiHeat, ChrisRichards kind of trolling in this forum, so far no one has brought the goods.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol This is SpursTalk..our trolling is personal attacks and gangbanging shitty posters..

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I just stand corrected a few posts ago. What, do you want me to sign an affidavit and have it mailed to your address? Should I swear in front of a judge or have it notarized :lol
You edited that part in. Don't lie.

Regardless, when you want to use the Magic's playoff seed as part of your argument, it would help to know what their seed was.


In a much weaker conference as well. You're only as good as your competition bro.
The Cavs went 26-4 against the West in 2009. Their win % against the West (.867) was higher than their win % against the East (.769), so that's another argument that is logically invalid.

It's also intellectually dishonest to pretend that being in a weaker conference provides a bigger advantage than having Bynum/Odom/Gasol, all of which are better than the Cavs' 2nd best player in 2009.


I think you're having some sort of mental block. I keep saying its the regular season success. Throwing that championship argument was just a nail in the coffin to prove his intangibles did exist with the Lakers that year.
It wasn't the nail in any coffin. It's completely irrelevant to a regular season award. The fact you keep using it demonstrates your shortage of legitimate arguments.


You have a problem with the logic of Lakers winning more games in the regular season (1st in their conference) while Kobe shooting better that season? I've always though MVP winners are awarded by their regular season success.
This argument has got to be trolling. How is Kobe's improvement from 2008 to 2009 relevant? The MVP award has nothing to do with that. It's how Kobe does compared to MVP candidates in 2009, not how Kobe does versus himself a year ago.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I enjoyed it though. Its a bit refreshing from the RealGm crowd.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm far from a Kobe fan :lol but your logic is just awful dude.

My logic is how the MVP award is actually decided (evident by the fact Lebron was the one who won it in 2009).

[Clipper Nation]

I enjoyed it though. Its a bit refreshing from the RealGm crowd.
You post at RealGM? No wonder your takes are so shitty :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So far here's a list of what StrengthAndHonor has made up in this thread:

1) Bynum didn't play in the 2009 and 2010 finals
2) The Magic were a 5 seed in 2009
3) Larry Bird has won back to back finals MVPs

Yet my logic somehow sucks. I guess you can use whatever logic you want when you make facts up.

[Stalin]

:lol This is SpursTalk..our trolling is personal attacks and gangbanging shitty posters..



:lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

So far here's a list of what StrengthAndHonor has made up in this thread:

1) Bynum didn't play in the 2009 and 2010 finals
2) The Magic were a 5 seed in 2009
3) Larry Bird has won back to back finals MVPs

Yet my logic somehow sucks. I guess you can use whatever logic you want when you make facts up.
So you diverted all the issues on hand and resort to nit picking details which I personally corrected. Lol. Life is grand.

[Narutoluva]

strengthandhonours is definetly a kobe nut rider, and his arguments are grasping at straws at best, probably isn't partial to naruto faggotry either

[Juggity]

Did not, I addressed it. Thanks to you, I actually have more reason to believe that Kobe now gets a pass. He's one of the few guys in the history of the league to win B2B Championships and Finals MVP. :lol

B2B championships is a criterion made up lakerfans. Ultimately, whether championships were won in sequence or out of sequence is irrelevant. The number is the same either way.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So you diverted all the issues on hand and resort to nit picking details which I personally corrected. Lol. Life is grand.

I responded to all the "issues," this was just pointing out how hilarious it is to criticize someone else's logic when you're the one making facts up.

[Clipper Nation]

So you diverted all the issues on hand and resort to nit picking details which I personally corrected. Lol. Life is grand.
:lol "Nit-picking details" as if those blatant lies weren't central parts of your argument

[Narutoluva]

strengthandhounours getting shit on, while shitting the bed :lmao

[StrengthAndHonor]

I responded to all the "issues," this was just pointing out how hilarious it is to criticize someone else's logic when you're the one making facts up.


So back to the question. Why is Kobe's B2B Finals MVP not a good reason why he doesn't belong the Top 10 list? Give me something with substance and lets proceed.

[Narutoluva]

So back to the question. Why is Kobe's B2B Finals MVP not a good reason why he doesn't belong the Top 10 list? Give me something with substance and lets proceed.



:lmao lakerfan pretending to be cliperfan, remove the rapist nuts of yo chin for increased credibility and iq

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So back to the question. Why is Kobe's B2B Finals MVP not a good reason why he doesn't belong the Top 10 list? Give me something with substance and lets proceed.
The burden of proof doesn't rest on me here to prove the negative but the reason it's not a good reason in and of itself is because the two finals MVP awards are only about a 12 game span and the only competition for the award is other players on his team or the other team. They have nothing to do with how he played in the previous playoff series or in the regular season.

[Clipper Nation]

So back to the question. Why is Kobe's B2B Finals MVP not a good reason why he doesn't belong the Top 10 list? Give me something with substance and lets proceed.
Well, for starters, he was handed one of them on name alone after he shot 6-for-24 in Game 7 and had to be bailed out by Pau and Metta :lol

[baseline bum]

What the fuck is this weaker conference horseshit? :lmao

The Celtics even minus Garnett and the Magic were both much better in 2009 than the 2-seed (:lmao) Nuggets, Spurs, Rockets, Trailblazers, Mavericks, etc. That was the worst western conference in years. :rollin

[StrengthAndHonor]

Well, for starters, he was handed one of them on name alone after he shot 6-for-24 in Game 7 and had to be bailed out by Pau and Metta :lol

So, who in your opinion should win the Finals MVP? I'm really curious to know, because that information you gave me just doesn't cut quite it. Serious response only.

[StrengthAndHonor]

The burden of proof doesn't rest on me here to prove the negative but the reason it's not a good reason in and of itself is because the two finals MVP awards are only about a 12 game span and the only competition for the award is other players on his team or the other team. They have nothing to do with how he played in the previous playoff series or in the regular season.


But don't you think these 12 games holds a lot more value than the one played in 82 games? Not a lot of teams gets to play those finals 7 games in June. The fact that a player endured 82 games + another month or so of grinding it out in the playoffs and keeping that same if not better production should tell you something.

[Cry Havoc]

But don't you think these 12 games holds a lot more value than the one played in 82 games? Not a lot of teams gets to play those finals 7 games in June. The fact that a player endured 82 games + another month or so of grinding it out in the playoffs and keeping that same if not better production should tell you something.

Given that criteria, it hurts Kobe more. He only has 2 Finals MVPs out of the 7 he's played in. Pretty damning to be honest, I bet that's the lowest ratio for any star player in history.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Given that criteria, it hurts Kobe more. He only has 2 Finals MVPs out of the 7 he's played in. Pretty damning to be honest, I bet that's the lowest ratio for any star player in history.

Ok, now this IMO is a good and better argument.

[007nites]

Should LeBron be there (i.e. the initial question of this topic)? After last year, I think he should. The 2011-12 NBA season was for LeBron what the 2002-03 season was for Tim Duncan: utterly legendary. He led his team to a championship, won Finals MVP, won regular season MVP, made the All-Defensive team, and was the most efficient player in the league. Very few people have done all that in one year. LeBron is among them, and hence he is among the top 10 players ever.

This.

[Proxy]

Given that criteria, it hurts Kobe more. He only has 2 Finals MVPs out of the 7 he's played in. Pretty damning to be honest, I bet that's the lowest ratio for any star player in history.

It's irrational to penalize him for playing before his prime with a prime Shaq

[Cry Havoc]

It's irrational to penalize him for playing before his prime with a prime Shaq

He's been in 5 Finals where he clearly wasn't the best player, and been dominated in the playoffs multiple times. Hard to make a case for him being a top 10 player of all time when that's the case.

[TD 21]

As I've been saying for years, Olajuwon is the most overrated player on the Internet..his peak was elite, but his overall career has many blemishes, yet he's revered as some type of God on forums, tbh..

There's a noticeable difference between top 10 peaks and top 10 careers..longevity plays a significant factor on the list for overall careers..Kobe, for example, is a lock for the top 10 careers, but I'm not sure about top 10 peaks..Olajuwon is the opposite..

As for The King, last year's version of Lebron was #2 on the peak list IMO, only behind '91 Jordan..

Exactly. People often confuse overrated for not great or even good, but no one with an ounce of knowledge would claim he wasn't great. He's just not as great as he's made out to be.

How are you "not sure about top 10 peaks", with Bryant? He clearly didn't have a top ten peak.

I'd still give '03 Duncan the slight edge over '12 James, for the simple fact that Duncan had a greater effect defensively/rebounding wise. I know James can't help the fact that he's three inches shorter, but at the same time, Duncan shouldn't be penalized for that.

As far as James' all time ranking, he's already easily inside the top ten and when it's all said and done, he probably ends up second or third. But that's not exactly breaking news. The more interesting cases are Durant and Paul (I'd say Wade too, but he's already fringe top 20).

[Proxy]

He's been in 5 Finals where he clearly wasn't the best player, and been dominated in the playoffs multiple times. Hard to make a case for him being a top 10 player of all time when that's the case.

Saying it's a "hard case" seems like a stretch. Career highlights and and awards per wikipedia seem to make it a relatively easy argument, tbh. His playoff statistics don't match with your assessment on him getting "dominated" in the playoffs either.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Sorry but LeBron is not ending in the Top 2 or 3. It would need a monumental shift from a performance pov at this point to erase those 2 horrible Finals disappearance, especially 2011 where he joined 2 other Superstars to win a title only to shrink at the last minute against another perennial choker (Mavs)

[Cry Havoc]

Saying it's a "hard case" seems like a stretch. Career highlights and and awards per wikipedia seem to make it a relatively easy argument, tbh. His playoff statistics don't match with your assessment on him getting "dominated" in the playoffs either.

So who's out of the top 10, then?

[Cry Havoc]

Sorry but LeBron is not ending in the Top 2 or 3. It would need a monumental shift from a performance pov at this point to erase those 2 horrible Finals disappearance, especially 2011 where he joined 2 other Superstars to win a title only to shrink at the last minute against another perennial choker (Mavs)

:lmao

You're a shit poster. Get off Kobe's dick.

[StrengthAndHonor]

So who's out of the top 10, then?

I'd take Olajuwon out tbh. Great center but Kobe's longevity is just better than his 2 year peak.

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lmao.

You seriouly think Lebron is a Top 2-3 player? I mean come on. You have to be 15 years old or below to even consider that. You'd get laughed at everywhere except here.

[JoeTait75]

I'll give Lebron that. He did had a great series but its all pointless since they are heavily favored to win the East at the very least and he failed to elevate his 60 win team against a pedestrian team.

Orlando had a better team than Cleveland, regardless of record. Or at any rate they matched up so well against the Cavaliers they might as well have been better.

It wasn't LeBron's fault the Cavaliers lost that series. If he hadn't hit that circus shot at the end of Game 2 they would have been swept.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Orlando had a better team than Cleveland, regardless of record. Or at any rate they matched up so well against the Cavaliers they might as well have been better.

It wasn't LeBron's fault the Cavaliers lost that series. If he hadn't hit that circus shot at the end of Game 2 they would have been swept.
So how do you explain the following year where they lost to a even lower seed? Are we just going to keep piling these excuses?

[JoeTait75]

So how do you explain the following year where they lost to a even lower seed?

He quit on his team. That's what happened.

2010 and 2011 are black marks on LeBron's resume. No one would argue that. Except maybe for Harlem Heat.

[StrengthAndHonor]

He quit on his team. That's what happened.

2010 and 2011 are black marks on LeBron's resume. No one would argue that. Except maybe for Harlem Heat.
Well at least you're consistent. Props to that.

[Cry Havoc]

I'd take Olajuwon out tbh. Great center but Kobe's longevity is just better than his 2 year peak.

I could see that. I mean, Olajuwon was a better defender, better on offense, better intangibles, didn't self-destruct hall of fame teams. He was a 23+10+3 blocks and ~2 steals a game guy for 12 years straight. If I were building a franchise from scratch I would take Hakeem 52 weeks out of the year over Kobe if I had them to draft as rookies. It wouldn't even merit conversation. Hakeem won a title with nothing around him. Kobe's teams with multiple HOFers fail. No comparison.

[Cry Havoc]

You seriouly think Lebron is a Top 2-3 player? I mean come on. You have to be 15 years old or below to even consider that. You'd get laughed at everywhere except here.

Now? Of course not. His trajectory is top 3 though.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Now? Of course not. His trajectory is top 3 though.

How is this guy going to replace Magic Johnson and KAJ on that all time list. Please explain.

And No, I'm not a Kobe fan. I just enjoy basketball debates. If its a checkmate situation I'll raise a white flag, so far I haven't seen any concrete proof why Lebron is in but Kobe is not.

[Cry Havoc]

How is this guy going to replace Magic Johnson

KAJ is a separate discussion, but LeBron is already LEAGUES above Magic in defense. Johnson was probably a better facilitator, but nowhere near the offensive threat that James is. LeBron can hurt you from any range, can penetrate and destroy any defense in half court sets or on the run, and is overall a more complete player. Magic is phenomenal but his defense is definitely a liability if you're talking direct comparison.

Put it to you this way: Insert LeBron into that Showtime offense instead of Magic and tell me he wouldn't have been a terror.

[StrengthAndHonor]

KAJ is a separate discussion, but LeBron is already LEAGUES above Magic in defense. Johnson was probably a better facilitator, but nowhere near the offense threat that James is. LeBron can hurt you from any range, can penetrate and destroy any defense in half court sets or on the run, and is overall a more complete player. Magic is phenomenal but his defense is definitely a liability if you're talking direct comparison.

Put it to you this way: Insert LeBron into that Showtime offense instead of Magic and tell me he wouldn't have been a terror.

Alright, after that Kobe ego bombs. I'm going to put this conversation on hold. :lmao

[DMC]

Is dirk a top 20 player

In the West, maybe.

[Proxy]

So who's out of the top 10, then?

I would say Hakeem. His longevity doesn't compare to the other guys considered top 10, regardless of how high his peak was.

[Cry Havoc]

I would say Hakeem. His longevity doesn't compare to the other guys considered top 10, regardless of how high his peak was.


I could see that. I mean, Olajuwon was a better defender, better on offense, better intangibles, didn't self-destruct hall of fame teams. He was a 23+10+3 blocks and ~2 steals a game guy for 12 years straight. If I were building a franchise from scratch I would take Hakeem 52 weeks out of the year over Kobe if I had them to draft as rookies. It wouldn't even merit conversation. Hakeem won a title with nothing around him. Kobe's teams with multiple HOFers fail. No comparison.

[Killakobe81]

A couple of things I see in this thread: Kobe & Lebron both getting underrated, Shaq, Hakeem Duncan and Bird being slightly overrated.

Skill wise (foot-work form etc.) MJ>Lebron. But watch Lebron pass, or chase down blocks or rebound he does so much more for an elite team than even MJ in his prime did ...save scoring. Mj was a better shooter too (FT and jumpshot) and post player but if i needed a rebound, steal, block, pass lay-up or dunk Im choosing Lebron. He has the TALENT to be the GOAT and dude has a 10 year resume. If he wins one more title he is only 1 behind Larry Bird and could probably claim the all-time greatest SF title already. 3 finals appearances 1 victory and his MVPS make that race to me not really close and I saw Bird play in his prime. just watch him play ... Lebron is well deserving.


Oh and I love how people are looking at the top 10 lost and using the BS MVP/Finals MVP award argument ...the MVP award is crap. Many of you hate on Kobe winning in 2008 but use in a flawed argument. The first one they gave Karl Malone over MJ tainted that award just like in MLB when Kirk Gibson and Terry Pendleton won it ...

Top 10 should be about career over "peak", Rings, stats and impact on the game. Some rate in better in some categories over others. But I think MJ deserves the one spot with KAreem and Magic close behind (never saw Russell, Wilt or Oscar so I dont count them in my 10).

[ambchang]

The not winning Finals MVP and Regular season argument at the same year is equally retarded. Fact is Kobe won those awards while 28 of the best players of each team were at home watching him hoist those trophies. :lol




Regular season is a media driven award. You shouldn't put much merit to this award. Winning Back to Back Finals MVP is actually quite harder. IN this list, all of them have won back to back Finals MVP. Guess who hasn't won both? :lol






Bynum didn't even play in those series. GTFO here lol.

You are right, very hard to win b2b Finals MVP because you are dependent on your team to win the Finals MVP, whereas the regular season MVP, the player has some/more control over it.

:lol thinking winning championships, pretty much the prerequisite for the Finals MVP, is an individual accomplishment.

[sook]

Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the play:lolffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good.

LeBron > Hakeem, already.

Before this...I've liked all your posts but this is just coming straight out of Narutoluva's ass!

[O.J. Simpson]

what is there to explain, Wilt, Russell, MJ i think should be obvious. Bird is very debatable but in my mind he was the better player (more points, more rebounds, better defender), Oscar Robertson had seasons with triple doubles (only one credited, but still). KAJ should also be obvious..

How the fuck does this explain why Magic is not in the top 10?

Can we get a poll on this? I can't let this stupidity slide.

[Raven]

How the fuck does this explain why Magic is not in the top 10?

Can we get a poll on this? I can't let this stupidity slide.

:lol man why are you so butthurt about that, what's the offense in saying he is n6/n7 instead of 2-5? Just because people have not seen some of the older legends, you can't just disrespect them because Magic was showtime, can you?:lol
Tell me how is putting
-the guy with the most titles
-the best in the game
-the guy who averaged 50 points per game and a gazilion rebs
-the guy who averaged a triple double
-the guy who scored the most points ever

of any offense to anybody? :lol

[Arcadian]

For those who doubt Hakeem and his longevity, he averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds for his first 12 seasons - in the 13th, he averaged 23 and 9. He was a dominant force from 1984-1997, both offensively and defensively. He was one of the best defensive centers ever. Maybe he didn't have longevity in terms of playoff success, but I think the back-to-back championships should nullify that. He came into a league dominated by the Lakers and Celtics, and then Jordan came onto the scene. Also, Hakeem got significantly better in his 30s, and he peaked later than most other stars. I maintain that peak performance is most important for this discussion.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

You can debate his accomplishments, but in terms of skills, he should clearly be on the list. He was basically a center with guard skills. There were a lot of great centers in the league in his time, but he was consistently the best. He beat Ewing's Knicks in 94 and Shaq's Magic in 95 (and we all know what he did to Robinson's Spurs).


http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/20/20130119-olajuwon-career-top10.nba/index.html


http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/20/20130119-olajuwon-94finals-top10.nba/index.html


http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/20/20130119-olajuwon-95finals-top10.nba/index.html

[O.J. Simpson]

:lol man why are you so butthurt about that, what's the offense in saying he is n6/n7 instead of 2-5? Just because people have not seen some of the older legends, you can't just disrespect them because Magic was showtime, can you?:lol
Tell me how is putting
-the guy with the most titles
-the best in the game
-the guy who averaged 50 points per game and a gazilion rebs
-the guy who averaged a triple double
-the guy who scored the most points ever

of any offense to anybody? :lol
lol @ you saying he's 6-7th now. And I've never seen anyone put fucking Oscar Robertson over Magic.


Magic for sure... he should not be in the top 10 anyway...

Just a terrible take. Which 10 players would you put over Magic?

[Raven]

lol @ you saying he's 6-7th now. And I've never seen anyone put fucking Oscar Robertson over Magic.



Just a terrible take. Which 10 players would you put over Magic?

ahhh i get it now, let me rephrase it properly.
he should not be in the top 10 statwise anyway but if we give it a pass because of the way he played, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous, since you'd have to cut out truly dominant players like shaq and others.

[Cry Havoc]

ahhh i get it now, let me rephrase it properly.
he should not be in the top 10 statwise anyway but if we give it a pass because of the way he played, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous, since you'd have to cut out truly dominant players like shaq and others.

You never watched Magic play. Just say it.

[stretch]

I think Magic tends to get a bit overrated by some people, but anyone who says anything other than top 10 is insane.

[ambchang]

My list, in order

Kareem/Jordan/Magic (I really have a hard time, I am serious)
Bird (due to his peak, if his back didn't gave out, could be higher)
Moses Malone
Russell (revolutionized the game on defense)
Wilt
Duncan/Shaq (one higher peak, other longer peak)
Hakeem
Big O
Dr. J (including ABA days)
West
John Havlicek
Kobe
Lebron
David Robinson
Dirk
Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Rick Barry
Garnett

[Killakobe81]

ahhh i get it now, let me rephrase it properly.
he should not be in the top 10 statwise anyway but if we give it a pass because of the way he played, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous, since you'd have to cut out truly dominant players like shaq and others.

Any list that places Shaq over Magic is suspect even if you do a great job at the other 8 spots ...

[Ashy Larry]

If the Big O is in the top ten, he'd probably be the one that may have to be eliminated if James gets in. Dude didn't win his title until Kareem got with him, but the numbers he did put up were staggering.

[Riddler]

:lol at anybody saying Hakeem shouldn't be top 10. Top 10 all time in steals, 1st in blocks.

[Killakobe81]

If you guys love stats both Malones and Oscar have some great ones, Elgin too. I don't rank guys I haven't seen myself though

[Raven]

Any list that places Shaq over Magic is suspect even if you do a great job at the other 8 spots ...

read again.

[99 Problems]

Top 10 greatest junk time players would actually be more fun to discuss. Note not worst but junk time. That would be seriously funny.

[StrengthAndHonor]

My list, in order

Kareem/Jordan/Magic (I really have a hard time, I am serious)
Bird (due to his peak, if his back didn't gave out, could be higher)
Moses Malone
Russell (revolutionized the game on defense)
Wilt
Duncan/Shaq (one higher peak, other longer peak)
Hakeem
Big O
Dr. J (including ABA days)
West
John Havlicek
Kobe
Lebron
David Robinson
Dirk
Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Rick Barry
Garnett

This is the kind if stupid list I loathe. Who the fuck puts Moses above Duncan or Shaq.

[StrengthAndHonor]

For those who doubt Hakeem and his longevity, he averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds for his first 12 seasons - in the 13th, he averaged 23 and 9. He was a dominant force from 1984-1997, both offensively and defensively. He was one of the best defensive centers ever. Maybe he didn't have longevity in terms of playoff success, but I think the back-to-back championships should nullify that. He came into a league dominated by the Lakers and Celtics, and then Jordan came onto the scene. Also, Hakeem got significantly better in his 30s, and he peaked later than most other stars. I maintain that peak performance is most important for this discussion.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

You can debate his accomplishments, but in terms of skills, he should clearly be on the list. He was basically a center with guard skills. There were a lot of great centers in the league in his time, but he was consistently the best. He beat Ewing's Knicks in 94 and Shaq's Magic in 95 (and we all know what he did to Robinson's Spurs).


http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/20/20130119-olajuwon-career-top10.nba/index.html


http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/20/20130119-olajuwon-94finals-top10.nba/index.html


http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/01/20/20130119-olajuwon-95finals-top10.nba/index.html


You can't go wrong with Olajuwon and Kobe. They both have a healthy list of record breaking accomplishments and records, both were winners and global icons. Personally I'm putting Kobe over Olajuwon simply because he had a lot more memorable performance throughout his career and frankly, I enjoy watching wing players more than big men. I was lucky enough to witness Olajuwon play in 93-95 and he really took over the league in the playoffs beating 3 HOF big mean along the way. Kobe was different. He had some dominating series against the Spurs, Portland and Sacramento. Won 3 championships then the break up happened. No one thought Kobe would ever win another title after Shaq left and for him to overcome that and bring LA back to 3 straight NBA finals was impressive.

So its just preference really. Do you take a guy who had a pretty solid career but peaked and dominated late or the other guy whose had a roller coaster ride but won in any type of role given to him.

[ambchang]

This is the kind if stupid list I loathe. Who the fuck puts Moses above Duncan or Shaq.

Have you ever watched Moses Malone?

BTW, in that list, forgot John Stocton, he should be above Garnett and Rick Barry.

[stretch]

Have you ever watched Moses Malone?

Yea Moses gets forgotten a lot, and I don't get why. Absolutely disgustingly good basketball player.

[Killakobe81]

Yea Moses gets forgotten a lot, and I don't get why. Absolutely disgustingly good basketball player.

I agree but I saw the past his prime still brutally effective fo fo fo ... Moses. Not sure where he fits but I did mention him earlier because he has some impressive numbers. I do know that he kicked Kareem's a$$ in 83 .... PArish's too IIRC ...

His performance was not quite HAkeem over David ...but it was close. Many here thought Cap was done after that series ...yet I think he got 1 more Finals MVP after ...

[Killakobe81]

Wont re-hash ...my list ... but many act as though Hakeem was only dominant from 93-95 which is not true. Watch his series vs. the Sonics in 86-87 playoffs. they just showed it on NBATV on his birthday this week ... guy was unstoppable against a young Alton Lister and am old but very Physical Mo Lucas.

Hakeem is underrated by some and overrated by some. Truth lies in the middle but I think he has a legit case over Shaq. I do prefer rings ... so I give shaq the nod ...because again if it's close for me, they matter.

But Hakeem has a very strong case. He is the better skilled offensive player (though less dominant) and defense which many Spur fans claim they appreciate ...it's not even Close. Hakeem was a better help and individual defender ...Shaq was better though at holding low post position on defense (and offense)

[stretch]

Wont re-hash ...my list ... but many act as though Hakeem was only dominant from 93-95 which is not true. Watch his series vs. the Sonics in 86-87 playoffs. they just showed it on NBATV on his birthday this week ... guy was unstoppable against a young Alton Lister and am old but very Physical Mo Lucas.

Hakeem is underrated by some and overrated by some. Truth lies in the middle but I think he has a legit case over Shaq. I do prefer rings ... so I give shaq the nod ...because again if it's close for me, they matter.

But Hakeem has a very strong case. He is the better skilled offensive player (though less dominant) and defense which many Spur fans claim they appreciate ...it's not even Close. Hakeem was a better help and individual defender ...Shaq was better though at holding low post position on defense (and offense)

He scored almost 38 points a game in the series against Dallas in 88. Dallas won 3-1 (and had a REALLY good team), but that is absolutely absurd to score like that. Hakeem was sick.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Have you ever watched Moses Malone?.
Not a lot of people have.

I'll tell you this though. I started posting on basketball sites as early as 2003, this was before the PER and win shares era and I vividly remember his name being part of the list, year in and out. Ive read hundreds of takes every year from some of the most knowledgeable basketball minds in a decade now and every year the list changes, Moses' name keeps getting taken over by players in this era and most people agreed. Its not that he's a lesser player now, its just that the players who keeps taking his spot had better careers (Starting from Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and now Lebron)

[Killakobe81]

He scored almost 38 points a game in the series against Dallas in 88. Dallas won 3-1 (and had a REALLY good team), but that is absolutely absurd to score like that. Hakeem was sick.

That is another great series of his. So much flip-flopping to defend their own franchise players in the forum. People say Olajawon peak was too short to put duncan over him ...which I dont even have a problem with. Again if it's close I sady duncan's 4 rings in a pretty competitive era gives him a stong case ... but people act like it's not close or that Hakeem doesnt deserve the nod ...

Like the Clip fan stated Hakeem (if rings are discounted) can make a strong case over Kobe and tbh(im not making it) versus every top 10 player since 1980 except maybe MJ, Magic and Kareem. I think after those 3 it's all pretty close Bird, Shaq, Kobe duncan, Lebron (soon), Moses Isiah all have strong cases to be over some player on most folks top 10 list. I think Lebron may join that first 3 club down the road ... but I love how absolute everyone acts on such a subjective subject.

[stretch]

That is another great series of his. So much flip-flopping to defend their own franchise players in the forum. People say Olajawon peak was too short to put duncan over him ...which I dont even have a problem with. Again if it's close I sady duncan's 4 rings in a pretty competitive era gives him a stong case ... but people act like it's not close or that Hakeem doesnt deserve the nod ...

Like the Clip fan stated Hakeem (if rings are discounted) can make a strong case over Kobe and tbh(im not making it) versus every top 10 player since 1980 except maybe MJ, Magic and Kareem. I think after those 3 it's all pretty close Bird, Shaq, Kobe duncan, Lebron (soon), Moses Isiah all have strong cases to be over some player on most folks top 10 list. I think Lebron may join that first 3 club down the road ... but I love how absolute everyone acts on such a subjective subject.

:tu

well put

[JoeTait75]

Have you ever watched Moses Malone?

BTW, in that list, forgot John Stocton, he should be above Garnett and Rick Barry.

I'd put Isaiah Thomas ahead of Stockton. And no way should Stockton be ahead of Rick Barry, imo. Barry had Larry Bird-like skills and led a team that really wasn't that good to a Championship. The only mark against Barry is that he was a massive douchebag, but that shouldn't affect his place in terms of skill.

[JoeTait75]

Yea Moses gets forgotten a lot, and I don't get why. Absolutely disgustingly good basketball player.

Not real media-friendly and only won the one title w/Philadelphia, imo. But he was an absolute beast. He tore up KAJ in the '81 playoffs.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I'd put Isaiah Thomas ahead of Stockton. And no way should Stockton be ahead of Rick Barry, imo. Barry had Larry Bird-like skills and led a team that really wasn't that good to a Championship. The only mark against Barry is that he was a massive douchebag, but that shouldn't affect his place in terms of skill.
Well according to some people here. Douchebaggery is a knock on your legacy.

[ambchang]

Not a lot of people have.

I'll tell you this though. I started posting on basketball sites as early as 2003, this was before the PER and win shares era and I vividly remember his name being part of the list, year in and out. Ive read hundreds of takes every year from some of the most knowledgeable basketball minds in a decade now and every year the list changes, Moses' name keeps getting taken over by players in this era and most people agreed. Its not that he's a lesser player now, its just that the players who keeps taking his spot had better careers (Starting from Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and now Lebron)

They guy played till the mid 90s, and was in his prime in the early to late 80s. I am sure quite a few people have watched him play, and if you haven't, go watch some tape before you saying that having him above Duncan and Shaq is stupid. If you are too lazy to do so, and judging from your post on this board so far, lack the requisite knowledge to understand the game even after you watched it, go to basketball-reference.com, type in "Moses Malone" in the Player Search function, then look through his stats and accomplishments. Then go to wikipedia.org, type in "Moses Malone" in search, and read his bio a little. Then perhaps go to google.com, and do the same. It would really benefit you rather than reading 2nd hand regurgitated information from other people.

[ambchang]

That is another great series of his. So much flip-flopping to defend their own franchise players in the forum. People say Olajawon peak was too short to put duncan over him ...which I dont even have a problem with. Again if it's close I sady duncan's 4 rings in a pretty competitive era gives him a stong case ... but people act like it's not close or that Hakeem doesnt deserve the nod ...

Like the Clip fan stated Hakeem (if rings are discounted) can make a strong case over Kobe and tbh(im not making it) versus every top 10 player since 1980 except maybe MJ, Magic and Kareem. I think after those 3 it's all pretty close Bird, Shaq, Kobe duncan, Lebron (soon), Moses Isiah all have strong cases to be over some player on most folks top 10 list. I think Lebron may join that first 3 club down the road ... but I love how absolute everyone acts on such a subjective subject.

Rare time we agree. I actually wouldn't have a problem putting the Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem in the same group. It switches in and out for me day to day. But I will say that Hakeem does require a very specific group of players around him to be very successful, Duncan is a little more versatile, while Shaq was just more dominant, yes, even more so than the 94/95 Hakeem, who was mighty dominant in those days.

Bird, to me, is in the Jordan, Magic, Kareem group. People forgot how good he was because he was slow and white, but watch the guy play, you cannot believe some of the stuff he does. Despite so slow, he is always two steps ahead of everybody else.

[ambchang]

I'd put Isaiah Thomas ahead of Stockton. And no way should Stockton be ahead of Rick Barry, imo. Barry had Larry Bird-like skills and led a team that really wasn't that good to a Championship. The only mark against Barry is that he was a massive douchebag, but that shouldn't affect his place in terms of skill.

I actually had Stockton above Barry because Barry was a gigantic douchebag against his own teammate, probably more so than Kobe does nowadays. Douchebaggery against your own teammates leads to team dissent, and over time, undermines the competitiveness of your team. Have to penalize a trait that undermines a team's chances of winning. Stockton is just a doubchebag against the competition, one of the dirtiest scumbag to ever play, but hey, he was trying to win.

[Clipper Nation]

Well according to some people here. Douchebaggery is a knock on your legacy.
When your douchebaggery turns a squad stacked with Hall of Famers into an atrocious lottery team, it's a knock on your legacyPERIOD

[StrengthAndHonor]

They guy played till the mid 90s, and was in his prime in the early to late 80s. I am sure quite a few people have watched him play, and if you haven't, go watch some tape before you saying that having him above Duncan and Shaq is stupid. If you are too lazy to do so, and judging from your post on this board so far, lack the requisite knowledge to understand the game even after you watched it, go to basketball-reference.com, type in "Moses Malone" in the Player Search function, then look through his stats and accomplishments. Then go to wikipedia.org, type in "Moses Malone" in search, and read his bio a little. Then perhaps go to google.com, and do the same. It would really benefit you rather than reading 2nd hand regurgitated information from other people.

You're not convincing anyone lol. Moses doesn't have a better career than Duncan and Shaq. That's fucking stupid.

[ambchang]

You're not convincing anyone lol. Moses doesn't have a better career than Duncan and Shaq. That's fucking stupid.

So you haven't watched him play at all, and your argument is that you have read from others on some ranking lists?

Then your backup argument is ... none?

Maybe, really, I can't put this in writing without smirking, but perhaps you should really watch and study how he played in his heydays, how he destroyed KAJ in his prime, how he lead the 6ers to a 12-1 record in the finals, and how he smashed Bird, Magic and KAJ in his prime, how he led a 40-42 Rockets team to the finals, how he is the best offensive rebounder the league has ever seen, by far, how he won b2b MVPs on two separate teams (3 total), how he puts up 31/15 in a season, you know things like that.

Next thing we know, you come in here saying Lebron > Jordan because you overheard a conversation in your local grade school washroom.

[StrengthAndHonor]

You just love to contradict yourself. Before Moses, the back2back argument is laughable. Now its valid? Hahaha.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Tell us why Malone has a better career than Shaq and Duncan. You haven't really said anything to convince.

[ambchang]

You just love to contradict yourself. Before Moses, the back2back argument is laughable. Now its valid? Hahaha.

There is a difference between Finals MVP and regular season MVP.

Seriously, I know you are trying to troll, but please, bring some quality to your trolls, this is just getting pathetic. Don't pretend you do not understand the premise behind your flawed b2b finals MVP crap. Please.

[ambchang]

Tell us why Malone has a better career than Shaq and Duncan. You haven't really said anything to convince.

Why do I have to convince you? You haven't convinced me that I have to.

And no, being ranked higher in the GOAT category doesn't mean that person has a better career. Sam Jones had a hell of a career, arguably one of the best, but he is not anywhere close to top 10 all time.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Why do I have to convince you? You haven't convinced me that I have to.

And no, being ranked higher in the GOAT category doesn't mean that person has a better career. Sam Jones had a hell of a career, arguably one of the best, but he is not anywhere close to top 10 all time.
You came out with a list that deserves explanation. You came up with this shit. Even if I just rely on googling this crap, no one would put Moses above Shaq and Duncan in this exclusive list. I don't need to explain anything. Shaq and Duncan both have better peaks and longevity. I'll stop there and let you figure out the rest.

[StrengthAndHonor]

There is a difference between Finals MVP and regular season MVP.

Seriously, I know you are trying to troll, but please, bring some quality to your trolls, this is just getting pathetic. Don't pretend you do not understand the premise behind your flawed b2b finals MVP crap. Please.

Yeah theres a difference alright. Finals MVP has more value than regular season MVP.

[ambchang]

You came out with a list that deserves explanation. You came up with this shit. Even if I just rely on googling this crap, no one would put Moses above Shaq and Duncan in this exclusive list. I don't need to explain anything. Shaq and Duncan both have better peaks and longevity. I'll stop there and let you figure out the rest.

LOL, stretch agrees with me that Moses Malone deserves to be on the list, and you are just a nobody troll who came up with some of the crappiest takes I have seen on this board in a while (and that really is saying something).

Neither Shaq nor Duncan has 3 MVPs, neither of them ever had a 30/15 season. Malone was on 11 All-NBA teams, 1st in offensive rebounds, #9 on the ELO ratings, similar, if not better win shares than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan, insane statistics.

Just haul your lazy ass and read some bit, will you? Don't just come in here asking people to prove things when you haven't proved anything and kept making shit up so that people have to respond. Alright?


Yeah theres a difference alright. Finals MVP has more value than regular season MVP.

Yes, competition against 24 players is tougher than competition against 360 players, got it.

Cedric Maxwell and Joe Dumars are better than Charles Barkley, John Stockton, David Robinson and Kevin Garnett. Right.

BTW, what happened to the me contradicting myself bit? Do you read? If not, try it, it's FUNdamental.

[Killakobe81]

Rare time we agree. I actually wouldn't have a problem putting the Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem in the same group. It switches in and out for me day to day. But I will say that Hakeem does require a very specific group of players around him to be very successful, Duncan is a little more versatile, while Shaq was just more dominant, yes, even more so than the 94/95 Hakeem, who was mighty dominant in those days.

Bird, to me, is in the Jordan, Magic, Kareem group. People forgot how good he was because he was slow and white, but watch the guy play, you cannot believe some of the stuff he does. Despite so slow, he is always two steps ahead of everybody else.

Amazing player no doubt. Love Larry Legend. But his carrer was shortened by back injury. So career wise Hakeem, duncan Shaq etc were major factors longer in the league imho.When Bird started to peter out after the 1987 season and maybe even before. I loved our victory in 1987 over the Celts but if you watch that finals you could tell Bird was already on teh decline. he still gave us fits nut that was because he was great. Everyone knocks Hakeem for a short prime but if you really look at it Bird's true dominance pretty much ends in 1986 when his back started to flare up on him ...

I also dont get why grouping (speaking for myself) Bird with Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/Hakeem is some type of underrating or borderline insult ... no matter what you think about them as douchebags (Not tim) those are 5 of the best to ever do it ...

Not knocking you Amb, but in some circles it's blasphemy to already give the all-time SF spot to James ... and for me with only 1 ring I agree ... but Lebron is in his 10th year he nly needs a few more at a high level to pass Bird. Most of those seasons (even with his flaws) palyed at a supremely high level. I still rate Larry Legend over Lebron ... that is the best compliment I can give him. But I doubt I will for much longer. I never saw Rick B so cant speak to how good he was but I have hear other long-time fans say he had some Larry Legend in his game.

[Killakobe81]

Yeah theres a difference alright. Finals MVP has more value than regular season MVP.

It does ...but not much. Not a big fan of any of the awards but finals MVP is one they get right most of the time ...

[ambchang]

Well. I can see how bird is knocked down a notch with his shorter career, but his dominance was as much as an 01 shaq or 94/5 Hakeem, only he did it 3 years in a row. It really was insane.

As for Lebron. Too early. He was on some very crappy teams I his career, but his failure against the mags was just too much of a blotch on his otherwise goat resume.

[ambchang]

Btw. Barry was good. Too much of a destructive player on his team though. Sort of like Larry brown of players.

[Killakobe81]

LOL, stretch agrees with me that Moses Malone deserves to be on the list, and you are just a nobody troll who came up with some of the crappiest takes I have seen on this board in a while (and that really is saying something).

Neither Shaq nor Duncan has 3 MVPs, neither of them ever had a 30/15 season. Malone was on 11 All-NBA teams, 1st in offensive rebounds, #9 on the ELO ratings, similar, if not better win shares than Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan, insane statistics.

Just haul your lazy ass and read some bit, will you? Don't just come in here asking people to prove things when you haven't proved anything and kept making shit up so that people have to respond. Alright?



Yes, competition against 24 players is tougher than competition against 360 players, got it.

Cedric Maxwell and Joe Dumars are better than Charles Barkley, John Stockton, David Robinson and Kevin Garnett. Right.

BTW, what happened to the me contradicting myself bit? Do you read? If not, try it, it's FUNdamental.

The award by this time was a sham. Shaq probably got robbed of at least one (duncan too) but maybe he got one he didnt deserve ...who knows?! my point is that award should really mean nothing in these type debates.

Karl over MJ tainted this award ...(not even sure Chuck over Mj was deserved either) ... but when voters stopped picking MJ due to voter fatigue or some crap ... that award (for me) doesnt mean jack.
Some writers even said flat out "well MJ is the MVP every year ... but Im voting for: ...X." Which is bull.

For example though (Kobe does not have a strong case over MJ) imagine how much weaker it would be if it was 8 or 9 MVPs to 1?!

But the award has been suspect. Awarding James recently has been one of the few times they have gotten it right.

But let's take it further we all know MJ should of won more MVp's ...Lebron may very well win more of them the Jordan does ...that sway the Mj vs. Lebron debate ...even though the award was suspect post MJ?

Fior those that discount rings ... doest more rings trump more MVP awards even though it's a "team-sport". How many team sports are dominated by a single player as much as b-ball? Just saying ...

[ambchang]

Not saying MVP was absolutely 100% reliable, but it certainly is a better gauge than ships. Outside of those b2b Nash shams and the Malone ones, I can't really think of any that is absolutely ridiculous.

Shaq was great, just took too many regular season games off.

[StrengthAndHonor]

LOL, stretch agrees with me that Moses Malone deserves to be list

Do you read? If not, try it, it's FUNdamental.

Who the hell uses another poster to validate their posts? What the fuck are you? 8 years old?:lol

[ambchang]

Who the hell uses another poster to validate their posts? What the fuck are you? 8 years old?:lol

You just did. I used your criteria to demonstrate how idiotic you are by basing your lists on somebody else's input and not your own observations. Thanks for proving that you have no grounds to argue with me wrt Malone and let me know you are 8.

Also, please respond to The rest of the post. I want to know what you have read through google. Maybe you read Malone won no MVP's and averaged 12/8 during his peak or something. With the errors you've made in this forum in such a short amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Killakobe81]

Not saying MVP was absolutely 100% reliable, but it certainly is a better gauge than ships. Outside of those b2b Nash shams and the Malone ones, I can't really think of any that is absolutely ridiculous.

Shaq was great, just took too many regular season games off.

Disagree ...but we have been down that road. I just think in all sports whether team or individual the VERY best win titles. Sure there is the occasional barry Sanders, Dan Marino and Karl MAlone ...(who was not flawless) but to me you cant be on any all-time list without a title. And if you are a top 10 guy on that list you need multiple ... that is what seperates the all-time guys from the great. You need at LEAst two imho ...to be in the convo. And of the major US sports (well maybe a hockey goalie) one player can make more of a difference in basketball. Sure none won by themselves, even MJ had HOF help. But to discount the ultimate prize for the ultimate competitors seems silly. And the thing that cracks me up about most on here when a player breaks through like Dirk, KG etc. people go out of the way to to give them credit usually overrating their place teh following season ... but when it comes to discussing legacy want to say it doesnt matter much?

MJ would be a great player without 6 rings. But those 6 rings validate his greatness. IF Mj had only 3 rings ... Im sorry no way could I give him the edge on Kareem (or Magic). He knew this ... he has said it drove him to surpass Larry and Magic in rings. But fans now want to use advanced stats and other measures when in the end ...the ring is what matters most ...to most fans and the players themselves.

And Finals MVP's are better than regular season ones but Dumars, Kareem, Worthy Parker won finals MVps on teams they were not the MVP of their own team in the regular season or even for the whole playoffs. For me awards mean little ... Im not saying that MVPs are ALl suspect I just think the process got tainted during the MJ era. And since we are discussing GOAT and I thnk we ALL agree the consensus GOAT got shafted a few of these awards ... then why whould they matter much?

Im pretty sure Stocton,Malone or Jazz fans would trade their PER or win share numbers for a ring. Robinson in his prime had amazing efficiency numbers (I remember he used to win the Schick award which was an early efficency metric) and a MVP but when you watch him he just does not seem like a top 10 contending player. But look at Tim carry the Spurs to 4 titles you can just SEE the diffrence. The rings just validate what we already know Tim duncan is a bad man , Robinson is great but not duncan great.

Truth is no one factor: rings, career stats, awards etc can definitively answer the question ... that is why I said I only use rings if thw players are close. For me Isiah vs. Stockton is close. I am not a stat guy Stockton has better caeer numbers but I think a prime Isiah eats him alive (the game were KArl Malone busted his head open Isiah was murdering Stockton IIRC)

Magic and Bird are fairly close but 5 vs. 3 plus a 2 out of 3 head to head in Finals for MAgic pushes Magic ahead for me. I know it's "my way" no it's not scientific. I just think when great players are that close the ultimate tie-breaker should be rings.

[ambchang]

We have talked about this, and we should just agree to disagree. My point is that Jordan would have been the same player if he was stuck on a horrible team and never won the championship. He probably wouldn't be viewed as the GOAT by the mass public, but he would be the exact same player.

As for KG, Pierce was more of a piece in that championship than him. Dirk deserves the accolades, because he should have received those BEFORE he won the championship. Check my posting history, I have said time and again that Dirk is for real, and that label of a choker was stupid.

Not exactly getting your drift on the Finals MVP. I would say that it is better for a player to win the Finals MVP than a regular season MVP, because outside of Jerry West, all of them can say they won the championship, but from an individual ability validation perspective, it is certainly better to win the regular season championship. Regular season MVP means you are the most valuable player in an entire league over the course of the season, Finals MVP means that you are the most valuable player on a fantastic team that won a championship over 4 to 7 games.

The thing about regular season MVP is, Jordan got shafted a couple of times and still won 5, tells you how good he is. Of course, in goat talk, we also have to take into account competition, team make up, etc ... because all those things affect regular season MVPs, but they do not affect them as much as they affect Finals MVP or championships.

Players would definitely trade better statistics for rings, but that doesn't mean that rings are worth more in GOAT discussions. Many people will trade their career achievements for happiness, but that doesn't mean that a happier guy had a better career.

David Robinson was effective as hell, and when you watch him, you KNOW he is one of the top players in the league. His problem is that he gets double and triple teamed throughout his entire career because he had a PG who made ONE 3 pointer in his career. Remember how well the Rockets did when Hakeem was averaged by a bunch of scrubs who couldn't shoot 3s? he averaged 18.5 ppg and 22ppg in the playoffs. Every year when HAM in the playoffs, he was surrounded by good to great three point shooting teams or teams without good interior defenders (87, 88, 94, 95). When Robinson had Rod Strickland and was facing GSW, he averaged 25/13/4. I have absolutely no doubt that if you had Robinson on a well constructed team, let's say sub him for Karl Malone on the Jazz, Robinson would have won at least 1 championship in the 90s. His play, and the lack of championships on his team, was a direct function of the team that was built around him.

As for Isiah vs. Stockton, I would say numbers-wise, they are pretty much around even, even during H2Hs. Ever since Stockton round into form, they have been pretty even outside of two games where Thomas absolutely exploded, but we know that is Isiah, he is a streaky shooter, and when his jumpshot is on, there is no way of stopping him, just that you don't know when his jumper would be on.

Magic vs. Bird is a toss up to me, sure Magic won 5, but again, that is a team build up and less injuries argument. I may give it to Magic due to his longer prime, but Bird, in his peak, ate everyone alive.

[StrengthAndHonor]

You just did. I used your criteria to demonstrate how idiotic you are by basing your lists on somebody else's input and not your own observations. Thanks for proving that you have no grounds to argue with me wrt Malone and let me know you are 8.

Also, please respond to The rest of the post. I want to know what you have read through google. Maybe you read Malone won no MVP's and averaged 12/8 during his peak or something. With the errors you've made in this forum in such a short amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised.

That's stupid tbh. I never used posters opinion in this forum to do my battles for me. You need to man up and explain why Malone is ahead of Duncan and Shaq. Tbh. I'm waiting.

[ambchang]

That's stupid tbh. I never used posters opinion in this forum to do my battles for me. You need to man up and explain why Malone is ahead of Duncan and Shaq. Tbh. I'm waiting.

I did multiple times. Read. I can't teach you to read what I just wrote, you have to gather up the courage, look in the mirror and tell yourself not to act like a retard anymore. I know you are a troll of a very knowledgeable guy, and is using this retard trick to troll, but come up with some new material other than "I am not convinced" or just making shit up.

And you just flat out said you never watched Malone played. Only read about him with other people's rankings.

Learn to read your own posts too.

[dbreiden83080]

The NBA was Bill Russell's playground. He's much more iconic than Wilt tbh.

No he isn't and there were about 20 great players in the league back then,

about 10 of them were on Russell's team..