Quick Grades: Spurs @ Hawks - Jan. 19

[timvp]

Tony Parker A
Did a huge amount of heavy lifting. Creation of offense was key, especially in the 4th. Great effort throughout.

Kawhi Leonard B+
Outstanding in the first half; a complete 180° from last game. O quieter in second half. D strong all game.

Danny Green B
Attentiveness on D improved exponentially within the game. Commendable tenacity. Shot never straightened.

Tiago Splitter B+
Silent in the first half but defrosted after halftime. His pick-and-roll movement was vital. Competed in the paint.

Boris Diaw B+
Hoisted his open shots. Effort on the glass was adequate, as was his D. Passed well while taking care of it.

Matt Bonner A+
Sensational night, especially considering recent struggles. Used complete repertoire on O. Hustled on D.

Gary Neal D
Jumper was impotent. Didn’t take horrible shots but needed to hit more. Mostly sloppy elsewhere.

DeJuan Blair A-
He was a ball of energy that made a lot of things happen, mostly positive. Strong on the boards; active on D.

Nando De Colo C
Didn’t take care of the ball enough and dribbled too much but defense was above average and he was lively.

Stephen Jackson D
Slow in the first half. Compounded issues with poor decisions. Hustle was lacking. Didn’t play in second half

Pop A-
Sitting out Duncan a great move in hindsight. Riding Bonner was shrewd. Managed Parker’s minutes beautifully.

[Libri]

:tu

[racm]

I think we got a glimpse of the post Big 3 Spurs.

Bonner looked like Dirk on one possession then like Kareem on another :wow :lol

[Blizzardwizard]

Matt Bonner A+
Sensational night, especially considering recent struggles. Used complete repertoire on O. Hustled on D.



I'm going to frame this. It's going on my fridge.

[Drz]

I'm still a huge believer that Bonner's 1691 career 3PAs tell us far more about his playoff shooting ability than his 85 career playoff 3PAs, and hope we start seeing some increased minutes for him with the plan to get him more involved in the playoffs this year, and not less.

I'm also a believer that teams play differently in the playoffs, and that they would likely play off him more to make the floor-stretching less effective. BUT,

1. How much less effective could that possibly be? Even if the team loses 5 points per 100 possessions, a phenomenally high number, he's still 3rd on the team, and
2. if they play off him, great. The more 3s a team takes, the more often a team wins, IRRELEVANT OF 3P SHOOTING %. Seems counter-intuitive, but it's a true fact (per Hollinger).

[Brunodf]

I'm still a huge believer that Bonner's 1691 career 3PAs tell us far more about his playoff shooting ability than his 85 career playoff 3PAs, and hope we start seeing some increased minutes for him with the plan to get him more involved in the playoffs this year, and not less.

.
:lmao:troll

[tmtcsc]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9581/screenshot20130119at955.png

Parker and Spurs hold off short-handed Hawks. No Duncan, no Ginobili, on the road. That's hilarious. Moral victory for Hawks?

[CubanMustGo]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9581/screenshot20130119at955.png

Parker and Spurs hold off short-handed Hawks. No Duncan, no Ginobili, on the road. That's hilarious. Moral victory for Hawks?

Not only that but when I looked at nba.com right after the game, ALL the highlights were of Atlanta. May have changed by now (one hopes, anyway).

[ElNono]

Time to sell high... time to shop Matt and Blair now that the Euro dude came over... tbh, timing couldn't be more perfect... it's like all planets aligning

[sanman53]

I was able to attend the game here in ATL. The crowd at Philips was down and very quiet, a lot of empty seats. I thought Spurs fans were louder than Hawks fans. As always, Spurs fans are friendly and good sportsmen/women. Here are a few of my thoughts (though TIMVP's thoughts are always superb):

Parker: His passing has gotten remarkable since I last saw him in person. He and Splitter worked well together tonight. Parker started out getting the team involved, then took over in the fourth.
Splitter: He has such a soft touch, he needs to get tougher (nothing new here).
Diaw: When he was underneath the basket, he played well. It was nice to watch him play in the post.
Nando: He looked lost and nervous most of the game.
Bonner: Shot well and I thought I saw him get a rebound. We got his autograph at the end of the game, my life is now complete.

The rest of the guys played well. Overall, exciting game for Spurs fans at Philips and I still look forward to attending a game in San Antonio! GO SPURS!

[underdawg]

I'm still a huge believer that Bonner's 1691 career 3PAs tell us far more about his playoff shooting ability than his 85 career playoff 3PAs, and hope we start seeing some increased minutes for him with the plan to get him more involved in the playoffs this year, and not less.

I'm also a believer that teams play differently in the playoffs, and that they would likely play off him more to make the floor-stretching less effective. BUT,

1. How much less effective could that possibly be? Even if the team loses 5 points per 100 possessions, a phenomenally high number, he's still 3rd on the team, and
2. if they play off him, great. The more 3s a team takes, the more often a team wins, IRRELEVANT OF 3P SHOOTING %. Seems counter-intuitive, but it's a true fact (per Hollinger).

no

[Hoops Czar]

Pop tried to give the game away everytime he brought in De Colo, 1 asist in 15 minutes, but Atlanta couldn't take advantage. :lol C grade is a bit high.

[Juggity]

I'm still a huge believer that Bonner's 1691 career 3PAs tell us far more about his playoff shooting ability than his 85 career playoff 3PAs, and hope we start seeing some increased minutes for him with the plan to get him more involved in the playoffs this year, and not less.

I'm also a believer that teams play differently in the playoffs, and that they would likely play off him more to make the floor-stretching less effective. BUT,

1. How much less effective could that possibly be? Even if the team loses 5 points per 100 possessions, a phenomenally high number, he's still 3rd on the team, and
2. if they play off him, great. The more 3s a team takes, the more often a team wins, IRRELEVANT OF 3P SHOOTING %. Seems counter-intuitive, but it's a true fact (per Hollinger).

The problem with Bonner is partly shot mechanics. He doesn't have a quick shot release. During the regular season, defenders aren't trying as hard to close out on shooters, thus why he performs better.

It's true that Jack has a slow shot release too, but he also has a high release point, which negates some of the problems introduced by the slowness.

[Darius Bieber]

No Mills tonight. Not sure what that was about.

However, a very nice B2B victory nonetheless.

[TMTTRIO]

anyone surprised Manu even went on the roadtrip especially when there was no reason for him to go? I guess Pop still needed all his players there so that the NBA wouldn't give him a hard time about not having all his players there :).

[Boomersgold]

Bonner flat out balled tonight. Does his performance warrant bringing him back in the regular rotation?

[freetiago]

Im not a fan of the word heroball but what parker did in the 4th was the true definition
he just kept dribbling and launching shots (3/8 in the 4th)
he missed so many open 3 point shooters
im just hoping he doesnt repeat this in the playoffs

and bonner does this every year
its obvious by whos posting is a recent spurfan
and theyre all gnsf tobh

[benefactor]

I knew before opening this thread there would be a Drz post within...and he's one of the better Bonner defenders...but he exposed himself as a troll with the addition of the playoffs comment.

It was a nice run, but you've overplayed your hand. No one is buying that shit.

[KL2]

I was really impressed by Kawhi's defense especially on Smith, he really forced him into some very tough shots, also loved his rebounding.

[racm]

I was able to attend the game here in ATL. The crowd at Philips was down and very quiet, a lot of empty seats. I thought Spurs fans were louder than Hawks fans. As always, Spurs fans are friendly and good sportsmen/women. Here are a few of my thoughts (though TIMVP's thoughts are always superb):

Parker: His passing has gotten remarkable since I last saw him in person. He and Splitter worked well together tonight. Parker started out getting the team involved, then took over in the fourth.
Splitter: He has such a soft touch, he needs to get tougher (nothing new here).
Diaw: When he was underneath the basket, he played well. It was nice to watch him play in the post.
Nando: He looked lost and nervous most of the game.
Bonner: Shot well and I thought I saw him get a rebound. We got his autograph at the end of the game, my life is now complete.

The rest of the guys played well. Overall, exciting game for Spurs fans at Philips and I still look forward to attending a game in San Antonio! GO SPURS!

Sounds Chris Paul-esque, tbh.

[racm]

Bonner flat out balled tonight. Does his performance warrant bringing him back in the regular rotation?

The thing is that Pop thinks that his floor spacing isn't as good as the elite finishing or rebounding Splitter brings. As late as he has done it, Pop is trying to wean the team off Coach B's 3s.

[99 Problems]

Rocket. Clone him b4 Miami does.

[Bruno]

Nando is just the most turnover prone player in the NBA:
http://bkref.com/tiny/y4PYx

If he has a future in the NBA, it's as a SG not a PG.

[Russo21]

Oh no Bonner just earned himself consistent big minutes for the remainder of the season and playoffs. D'oh

[Drz]

and bonner does this every year
its obvious by whos posting is a recent spurfan
and theyre all gnsf tobh
I'm a numbers guy. You are not good with numbers.

Our impressions fit with both of our viewpoints.


I knew before opening this thread there would be a Drz post within...and he's one of the better Bonner defenders...but he exposed himself as a troll with the addition of the playoffs comment.

It was a nice run, but you've overplayed your hand. No one is buying that shit.
I'm embarrassed with myself that I'm replying to your idiot post, but I'll bite. Please tell - what is it about the "playoffs comment" that you find incorrect? I'd really appreciate it if you explain your reasoning, because I'd enjoy tearing your inevitably shitty argument to threads.

[td4mvp21]

I'm still a huge believer that Bonner's 1691 career 3PAs tell us far more about his playoff shooting ability than his 85 career playoff 3PAs, and hope we start seeing some increased minutes for him with the plan to get him more involved in the playoffs this year, and not less.


Oh my god.

[Drz]

Oh my god.
Solid argument, thanks for the contribution.

[rmt]

The problem with Bonner is partly shot mechanics. He doesn't have a quick shot release. During the regular season, defenders aren't trying as hard to close out on shooters, thus why he performs better.

It's true that Jack has a slow shot release too, but he also has a high release point, which negates some of the problems introduced by the slowness.

SJax and Bonner in the playoffs shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath. One is the definition of clutch and the other the definition of choker.

[Ice009]

The problem with Bonner is partly shot mechanics. He doesn't have a quick shot release. During the regular season, defenders aren't trying as hard to close out on shooters, thus why he performs better.

It's true that Jack has a slow shot release too, but he also has a high release point, which negates some of the problems introduced by the slowness.

I've mentioned Bonner's piss poor shot mechanics as one of the main reasons he can't excel in the playoffs numerous times before. What is your response to that Drz?

[Drz]

What is your response to that Drz?
1. How much less effective could that possibly be? Even if the team loses 5 points per 100 possessions, a phenomenally high number, he's still 3rd on the team, and
2. if they play off him, great. The more 3s a team takes, the more often a team wins, IRRELEVANT OF 3P SHOOTING %. Seems counter-intuitive, but it's a true fact (per Hollinger).

[freetiago]

someone should post bonners 3 point percertange by month
its hilarious how every year the exact same trend follows as april approaches

[TDMVPDPOY]

i take efkn bonner over gary

[Drz]

I've mentioned Bonner's piss poor shot mechanics as one of the main reasons he can't excel in the playoffs numerous times before. What is your response to that Drz?
Just went through your old posts by searching for the word "mechanics." You're right, you have said he has poor mechanics quite a few times. Maybe someday you'll decide to say what it is about the mechanics that's bad.

Personally, I couldn't care less if he shot it by doing a backflip and bumping it off his ass, all I care about is that it goes in. You sound like the old school MLB scouts ... it's not about results to you, it's about if it looks good.

Stan Musial died today. He had an ugly, ugly swing. Must've been a bad playoff performer, by your twisted logic.

[freetiago]

bonner has bad mechanics and bad playoff performances so your logic if flawed tbh
somebody ban this faggot

[rmt]

And to think that we had Steve Novak on this team, let him go and kept Bonner. It irks me every time I see Novak and his quick, picture perfect release on NYK and think of Bonner's slow, cocked to the side release. And it INFURIATES me when I think of Pop's man-love for Bonner and how it's kept Splitter on the bench up until recently.

[Dr. Robert Lee]

Gary is fkn pathetic.

[TDMVPDPOY]

only thing gary neal the hero has on bonner is a quick release, everything else his fakn shit

[Drz]

I'm going to give you a quick example to help illustrate my thinking. It's from Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman. Please read it.


A study of the incidence of kidney cancer in the 3,141 counties of the United States reveals a remarkable pattern. The counties in which the incidence of kidney cancer is lowest are mostly rural, sparsely populated, and located in traditionally Republican sates in the Midwest, the South, and the West. What do you make of this?

Your mind has been very active in the last few seconds. You deliberately searched memory and formulated hypotheses. You probably rejected the idea that Republican politics provide protection against cancer. Very likely, you ended up focusing on the fact that the counties with low incidence of cancer are mostly rural. It is easy to infer that the low cancer rates are due to the clean living of the rural lifestyle -- no air pollution, no water pollution, access to fresh food with additives.

Now consider the counties in which the incidence of kidney cancer is highest. These ailing counties tend to be mostly rural, sparsely populated, and located in traditionally Republican sates in the Midwest, the South, and the West. It is easy to infer that their high cancer rates might be directly due to the poverty of the rural lifestyle -- no access to good medical care, a high fat diet, and too much alcohol, too much tobacco. Something is wrong, of course. The rural lifestyle cannot explain both very high and very low incidence of cancer.

The key factor is not that the counties were rural or predominantly Republican. It is that rural counties have small populations. And the main lesson to be learned is not about epidemiology, it is about the difficult relationship between our mind and statistics. Our mind is highly adept at automatically and effortlessly identifying causal connections between events, sometimes even when the connection is spurious. When told about the high-incidence counties, you immediately assumed that these counties are different from other counties for a reason, that there must be a cause that explains this difference. However, our mind is inept when faced with "merely statistical" facts, which change the probability of outcomes but do not cause them to happen.

Did you read that? I hope so. If you didn't, read it now. That small blurb could change your life by helping you understand how your mind works.

I don't hope, I know that reading that blurb has helped you understand why your thinking of Matt Bonner is flawed. Your mind is trying to develop causal relationships that aren't there. The playoff performance is a result of extremely limited minutes and shot attempts. Nothing more, nothing less. To say you don't believe in this is like saying you don't believe in math.

If you read that and truly, TRULY still believe in your old line of thinking, all I can say is you are stubborn and beyond hope. Kahneman is a Nobel Prize winner in economics. You are a poster on an internet board. Please, take some time to think about which person is probably right.

[therealtruth]

1. How much less effective could that possibly be? Even if the team loses 5 points per 100 possessions, a phenomenally high number, he's still 3rd on the team, and
2. if they play off him, great. The more 3s a team takes, the more often a team wins, IRRELEVANT OF 3P SHOOTING %. Seems counter-intuitive, but it's a true fact (per Hollinger).

They play off him and Bonner still refuses to shoot because of his slow release. It kills the spacing and they don't get more attempts.

[Drz]

They play off him and Bonner still refuses to shoot because of his slow release. It kills the spacing and they don't get more attempts.
If this were true, I'd agree with you. But other than commonly repeated phrases around here, and people saying stuff like "watch the games fool!," there's no evidence that he requires himself to be more open to shoot in the playoffs.

Seriously though, kudos to you though for actually making an argument. I get frustrated seeing people post hellacious "duhhh, Bonner BAD!" comments with no evidence and, in most cases, quite obviously no clue what they're talking about. When someone comes along and actually makes a point, even if I don't agree, it's a breath of fresh air.

[Whisky Dog]

Just went through your old posts by searching for the word "mechanics." You're right, you have said he has poor mechanics quite a few times. Maybe someday you'll decide to say what it is about the mechanics that's bad.

Personally, I couldn't care less if he shot it by doing a backflip and bumping it off his ass, all I care about is that it goes in. You sound like the old school MLB scouts ... it's not about results to you, it's about if it looks good.

Stan Musial died today. He had an ugly, ugly swing. Must've been a bad playoff performer, by your twisted logic.


On Bonner's shot: his poor mechanics stem from his form of hoisting the ball from just below his shoulder rather than releasing the ball from above his head like players are taught. The problem with this is although he's 6'10" his shot has the release point of someone approximately 6'3" or so. This coupled with the extra time it takes him to get the shot up from. This low release point means he cannot get off a semi contested shot from 3, and this is the type of shot that you have to be able to hit in the playoffs.

This is exacerbated by the 4+ seasons of playoffs basketball that have shown Bonner to not only miss shots when the games get more important but also become hesitant to shoot when the moment is bigger. All together it means his effectiveness in the playoffs is greatly reduced and there is nothing but empirical evidence from 5 years of results to show this. You can keep trying to explain it away all you want but it doesn't change.

[Whisky Dog]

That said, props to Bonner and Blair for coming through when they were needed the most with Duncan sitting. Their efforts were part of the difference between a road win and loss.

[HI-FI]

if Bonner's mechanics are not good for playoffs, how come Chip hasn't fixed it? Bonner seems like the type to work hard and improve these things.

btw, I don't necessarily agree with Drz's crusade, but I respect it.

[Drz]

On Bonner's shot: his poor mechanics stem from his form of hoisting the ball from just below his shoulder rather than releasing the ball from above his head like players are taught. The problem with this is although he's 6'10" his shot has the release point of someone approximately 6'3" or so. This coupled with the extra time it takes him to get the shot up from. This low release point means he cannot get off a semi contested shot from 3, and this is the type of shot that you have to be able to hit in the playoffs.
I disagree with two bolded parts:
1. He releases the ball well above his head (see pic below). He starts with the ball around his shoulder, but his release point is the same as nearly every other shooter.
2. Playoff basketball is the same game as regular season basketball, albeit with more talented teams and (slightly) more effort. The bigs that guard him, at best, are only going to close out on him barely faster than they do in the regular season. I don't see how this could cause much of a dropoff in shooting percentage. It seems vastly, VASTLY more likely that the existing difference is due to the very small number of shot attempts.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/files/2011/06/Matt-Bonner1115-306x502.jpg


This is exacerbated by the 4+ seasons of playoffs basketball that have shown Bonner to not only miss shots when the games get more important but also become hesitant to shoot when the moment is bigger. All together it means his effectiveness in the playoffs is greatly reduced and there is nothing but empirical evidence from 5 years of results to show this. You can keep trying to explain it away all you want but it doesn't change.
"5 years" of empirical evidence? You're trying to fluff it up to make it sound good, but you and I both know it's 85 3 point attempts.

If you can prove to me he becomes more hesitant to shoot when the moment is bigger, I will Paypal you $50. You have my word.

[Drz]

Per 82games.com, here are Bonner's "clutch" 3 pt stats the last two years. Clutch is defined as 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points

2012-2013: 0.419
2011-2012: 0.500

Not only is that not a choker, it's pretty damn excellent.

[Whisky Dog]

I disagree with two bolded parts:
1. He releases the ball well above his head (see pic below). He starts with the ball around his shoulder, but his release point is the same as nearly every other shooter.
2. Playoff basketball is the same game as regular season basketball, albeit with more talented teams and (slightly) more effort. The bigs that guard him, at best, are only going to close out on him barely faster than they do in the regular season. I don't see how this could cause much of a dropoff in shooting percentage. It seems vastly, VASTLY more likely that the existing difference is due to the very small number of shot attempts.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/files/2011/06/Matt-Bonner1115-306x502.jpg

In basketball the shooting release isn't only about the moment the ball leaves his hands, it's a culmination of the entire motion. If you look at tht picture you can see how he
"5 years" of empirical evidence? You're trying to fluff it up to make it sound good, but you and I both know it's 85 3 point attempts.

If you can prove to me he becomes more hesitant to shoot when the moment is bigger, I will Paypal you $50. You have my word.

Maybe such little shot attempts is the sign that he becomes hesistant to shoot in the playoffs. You can point to all the regular season stats you want but it's a different type of pressure in the playoffs. So again:

You can keep trying to explain it away all you want but it doesn't change.

[polandprzem]

Nando is just the most turnover prone player in the NBA:
http://bkref.com/tiny/y4PYx

If he has a future in the NBA, it's as a SG not a PG.
It does not indicate nothing as he played so short amount of time and still is an NBA rookie.

I would like to see him playing more consistent minutes because now it seems like he just goes for every play to prove something.

[Paranoid Pop]

Harris and Korver took turns scoring on Green and he still gets a B, is he backed up by the church of scientology or something?

[Ice009]

Just went through your old posts by searching for the word "mechanics." You're right, you have said he has poor mechanics quite a few times. Maybe someday you'll decide to say what it is about the mechanics that's bad.

Personally, I couldn't care less if he shot it by doing a backflip and bumping it off his ass, all I care about is that it goes in. You sound like the old school MLB scouts ... it's not about results to you, it's about if it looks good.

Stan Musial died today. He had an ugly, ugly swing. Must've been a bad playoff performer, by your twisted logic.

I have absolutely no problem with someone having unorthodox shooting mechanics. Reggie Miller is someone that I will use as an example. He was a pretty darn good shooter that didn't have a picture perfect shot, but I don't care about that, because he was able to get his shot off in the playoffs and make it. Reggie was one of my favorite shooters, don't really want to admit that now after I have heard his commentating, but yeah, he was one of my favorites and he never had a perfect set shot.

Bonner is different, he has a slow release that isn't accurate unless he has time to wind it up. NBA playoff defenses don't allow you to camp out at the 3 point line so you can wind up to shoot the ball. Bonner himself said that he was working on a quicker release during the off season earlier this season, which is the first time I ever heard him say that. You pretty much have no argument, Bonner obviously knows it is a big problem that was exposed in the playoffs yet again, otherwise he wouldn't have been working on it. He needs time to set and shoot, because when they run him off the three point line he becomes useless, as he can't get a shot off quickly, or shoot on the move at all.

If you are a shooter, it's pretty easy to work out why Bonner struggles in the playoffs. I take it you're not much of a shooter?

[Mal]

That was one ugly win

[biskvito]

so many surreal posts I can't even find the strength... let the playoffs begin already...

[CubanMustGo]

Matt Bonner, career 3FG%: 41.8%
Matt Bonner, career playoff 3FG%: 32.9%

Matt Bonner, career scoring: 6.6 ppg
Matt Bonner, career playoff scoring: 3.2 ppg

Matt Bonner, career rebounding: 3.4 rpg
Matt Bonner, career playoff rebounding: 2.2 rpg

Yes, the man is a fucking playoff stud. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bonnema01.html

[callo1]

I can't give Pop an A- when Kawhi has Korver on him and doesn't have plays run for him. Inexcusable tbh.

[callo1]

Danny was getting picked and rubbed constantly against Korver. Harris is just too fast for Danny.

[callo1]

Did anybody else get the feeling Pop was displaying Bonner and Blair?

[Pauleta14]

Im not a fan of the word heroball but what parker did in the 4th was the true definition
he just kept dribbling and launching shots (3/8 in the 4th)
he missed so many open 3 point shooters
im just hoping he doesnt repeat this in the playoffs

and bonner does this every year
its obvious by whos posting is a recent spurfan
and theyre all gnsf tobh

Really?!?!!!

He did what was expected from him, whitch being agressive and get in the paint again and again...

His mid range was off but that didn't stop his agressiveness, I LOVED THAT!!!

plus he waited the 4th to take over and he's our best scorer in the clutch, what else do you want??

ps/ And that wasn't "hero ball" (we really shoud stop with that!) but a leader taking his responsabilities in money time...

[Ice009]

Really?!?!!!

He did what was expected from him, whitch being agressive and get in the paint again and again...

His mid range was off but that didn't stop his agressiveness, I LOVED THAT!!!

plus he waited the 4th to take over and he's our best scorer in the clutch, what else do you want??

ps/ And that wasn't "hero ball" (we really shoud stop with that!) but a leader taking his responsabilities in money time...

People are using "hero ball" way too often for my liking around here.

If Tony didn't take over in the 4th quarter then we likely lose that game. Anyone criticizing him for that this game is way off base IMO.

[td4mvp21]

Matt Bonner, career 3FG%: 41.8%
Matt Bonner, career playoff 3FG%: 32.9%

Matt Bonner, career scoring: 6.6 ppg
Matt Bonner, career playoff scoring: 3.2 ppg

Matt Bonner, career rebounding: 3.4 rpg
Matt Bonner, career playoff rebounding: 2.2 rpg

Yes, the man is a fucking playoff stud. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bonnema01.html

Let's do three-pointers made per game, too:

2009 regular season: 1.5 made per game
2009 playoffs: .6 made per game

2010 regular season: 1.38 made per game
2010 playoffs: 1 made per game

2011 regular season: 1.59 made per game
2011 playoffs: 1 made per game

2012 regular season: 1.62 made per game
2012 playoffs: .62 made per game
*His minutes dropped significantly from regular season this year

Everything drops (except his shots).

[quentin_compson]

I thought Pop did well to manage Tony's minutes in a game where it was clear that most of the offense would have to be created by him. Also the offensive production from Bonner and Blair was much needed on a night when Neal would shoot so poorly.

[Strategic]

Harris and Korver took turns scoring on Green and he still gets a B, is he backed up by the church of scientology or something?

Yep. Green comes on the cheap(?) at 3.5 mil. and can't stay out of the way, except on D and gets a B. Neal is expensive (?) at 0.85 mil., volunteered or was forced to change positions to fill a void for the team, to one that he doesn't excel at, and gets a D. Strange brew for sure. Oh I forgot, Green made a lay up.

[anonoftheinternets]

Let's do three-pointers made per game, too:

2009 regular season: 1.5 made per game
2009 playoffs: .6 made per game

2010 regular season: 1.38 made per game
2010 playoffs: 1 made per game

2011 regular season: 1.59 made per game
2011 playoffs: 1 made per game

2012 regular season: 1.62 made per game
2012 playoffs: .62 made per game
*His minutes dropped significantly from regular season this year

Everything drops (except his shots).

I dont really believe in bonner, but Drz's argument was "small sample space", so posting those numbers is not going to help. More likely I would argue that no one said bball is fair, and sometimes if u dont make a reputation you may not get a chance... unfortunately for Bonner, he hasn't made a reputation (he has a terrible one in POs) and hes not extraordinary enough to get a chance because of his lack of athleticism and one dimensionality. So I dont see him getting another chance to play big minutes for this or any other team and I dont think anyone is losing sleep over it.

[BackHome]

The problem with Green, Neal, Bonner is that they are not starters in the NBA and people here judge them as starters. When it comes to the playoffs you have to shorten your bench and it is your big five that are either going to win you a ring or get you kicked out of the dance.

[Brunodf]

Don't feed the troll, Bonner is useless in the playoffs, guards can shut him down.

[Drz]

Bonner is different, he has a slow release that isn't accurate unless he has time to wind it up. NBA playoff defenses don't allow you to camp out at the 3 point line so you can wind up to shoot the ball. Bonner himself said that he was working on a quicker release during the off season earlier this season, which is the first time I ever heard him say that. You pretty much have no argument, Bonner obviously knows it is a big problem that was exposed in the playoffs yet again, otherwise he wouldn't have been working on it. He needs time to set and shoot, because when they run him off the three point line he becomes useless, as he can't get a shot off quickly, or shoot on the move at all.
I agree a quicker release is better than a slow release. But I disagree that it becomes more important in the playoffs, because you know what else becomes more important in the playoffs? Every single aspect of basketball. You're looking at one particular aspect of Bonner's shooting and trying to use it to explain why his playoff 3P% has been lower. See post #38 in this thread for why that is a bad thing to do.

[Drz]

I dont really believe in bonner, but Drz's argument was "small sample space", so posting those numbers is not going to help.
Haha, thanks, I wasn't even going to reply to those posts. You are absolutely correct. Most of the numbers were even per game, and not per minute. :blah

Although I didn't quote it, the rest of your post was good too.

[Drz]

Don't feed the troll, Bonner is useless in the playoffs, guards can shut him down.
Ohhhh my god. Wow. I've been defending Bonner on here for so long, but guards can shut him down? I never saw it that way. OMG. You're right. Here I've been quoting all these "numbers" and stuff, piecing together these arguments based on logic and reason, whatever the hell those are, but guards can shut him down! You're right, he's useless in the playoffs! Guards can shut him down! Thank you for showing me the light.

[Manufan909]

I disagree with two bolded parts:
1. He releases the ball well above his head (see pic below). He starts with the ball around his shoulder, but his release point is the same as nearly every other shooter.
2. Playoff basketball is the same game as regular season basketball, albeit with more talented teams and (slightly) more effort. The bigs that guard him, at best, are only going to close out on him barely faster than they do in the regular season. I don't see how this could cause much of a dropoff in shooting percentage. It seems vastly, VASTLY more likely that the existing difference is due to the very small number of shot attempts.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/files/2011/06/Matt-Bonner1115-306x502.jpg


"5 years" of empirical evidence? You're trying to fluff it up to make it sound good, but you and I both know it's 85 3 point attempts.

If you can prove to me he becomes more hesitant to shoot when the moment is bigger, I will Paypal you $50. You have my word.
How do you expect anyone to take you seriously after that? Playoff basketball is NOTHING like regular season basketball.

[Drz]

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously after that? Playoff basketball is NOTHING like regular season basketball.
Baskets are still worth 1, 2, or 3 points. OHhhhhh, you've just proven wrong, suck it.

But seriously, the changes are extremely minor. The rules are even the same. Saying it's "NOTHING like regular season basketball" makes you look like a fool.

[SpursRock20]

Baskets are still worth 1, 2, or 3 points. OHhhhhh, you've just proven wrong, suck it.

But seriously, the changes are extremely minor. The rules are even the same. Saying it's "NOTHING like regular season basketball" makes you look like a fool.

Come on, man. The teams that make the playoffs create game plans against the opposing team and make it one of the points of emphasis to shut down Bonner when he enters the game by running him off the three point line. Teams and players, alike, are more disciplined in the playoffs compared to the other 14 teams and countless players that do not make the playoffs.

The Thunder, for example, are so long and athletic that they can get out to a shooter as fast as almost anyone. Bonner played 54 minutes and was 1-7 from behind the three-point line in that series. That means for about every 8 minutes on the court, he attempted only 1 three. You know why? The Thunder would not allow him to shoot those threes by running hard right at him and forcing him to drive. This killed our spacing and was one of the reasons we lost that series. The Bonner ship has sailed, he routinely gets shut down in the playoffs, move on.

[Ice009]

I agree a quicker release is better than a slow release. But I disagree that it becomes more important in the playoffs, because you know what else becomes more important in the playoffs? Every single aspect of basketball. You're looking at one particular aspect of Bonner's shooting and trying to use it to explain why his playoff 3P% has been lower. See post #38 in this thread for why that is a bad thing to do.

I didn't mention the other aspect, which plays just as big of a part as his shooting mechanics, and that is his confidence. I knew you wouldn't listen to that, so I didn't bother. Basically, Bonner gets scared in the playoffs and doesn't shoot the ball with the same confidence as he does earlier in the season. If he misses a couple of shots, he doesn't shake it off, or have a short term memory like most great shooters do. He resorts to passing up open shots rather than shooting with no conscience, instead, he lets his conscience eat him up and then disappears. It really hurts the team when he passes up open shots to dribble the ball. It completely breaks the offense. Combine that with his poor shooting mechanics and that is the Bonner you get in the playoffs.

You can't make any of the shots if you don't have the confidence to take it and make it. The ball doesn't have a chance to go in if you don't give it one. Bonner's mindset seems to change, and even those rare open shots he gets in the playoffs, he seems to miss them too.

You've also got the defensive aspect, good teams will game plan and make sure that he doesn't get wide open shots in the playoffs. That seems to fluster him, and at times, he has no idea what to do when he doesn't have a few seconds to wind up and get a good shot off.

[SpursRock20]

I didn't mention the other aspect, which plays just as big of a part as his shooting mechanics, and that is his confidence. I knew you wouldn't listen to that, so I didn't bother. Basically, Bonner gets scared in the playoffs and doesn't shoot the ball with the same confidence as he does earlier in the season. If he misses a couple of shots, he doesn't shake it off, or have a short term memory like most great shooters do. He resorts to passing up open shots rather than shooting with no conscience, instead, he lets his conscience eat him up instead and then disappears. It really hurts the team when he passes up open shots to dribble the ball and breaks the offense. Combine that with his poor shooting mechanics and that is the Bonner you get in the playoffs.

You can't make any of the shots if you don't have the confidence to take it and make it. The ball doesn't have a chance to go in if you don't give it one. Bonner's mindset seems to change, and even those rare open shots he gets in the playoffs, he seems to miss them too.

Agreed. If you ever have the pleasure of seeing the Spurs live, watch Bonner in the pre-game warmups. The dude simply does not miss. He is undoubtedly one of the best, if not the best, shooter on the planet in a no pressure setting. It transmits quite well in games during the regular season where there is little pressure. But once the playoffs begin, his lack of confidence takes away from the one skill he has. We've seen it year in and year out.

[freetiago]

Sean kept talking about how bad the spurs offense was in the second half
and it was because parker didnt even try to get the teams in their sets
too much dribbling and chucking off bad shots
i was watching him missing 3 point shooter after 3 point shooter
if we didnt win the game he probably gets a C-ish

[benefactor]

I'm embarrassed with myself that I'm replying to your idiot post, but I'll bite. Please tell - what is it about the "playoffs comment" that you find incorrect? I'd really appreciate it if you explain your reasoning, because I'd enjoy tearing your inevitably shitty argument to threads.
rofl

Don't puff your chest out at me you stupid bitch. You are a troll that uses a few numbers to try to justify something that anyone with a pair of fucking eyes can see is bullshit. He becomes even more useless now that the league has gone to smaller, faster lineups. Hell...even z0sa, who spent years as a Bonner apologist finally admitted Bonner was useless in the playoffs.

So take your ass back to the barber and get that Bonner face fade touched up and go home and fondle your balls while looking at it in the mirror. That's a much more productive use of your time than coming here with a few shit numbers arguments that support something we have all figured out was unjustifiable long ago.

[Paranoid Pop]

Yep. Green comes on the cheap(?) at 3.5 mil. and can't stay out of the way, except on D and gets a B. Neal is expensive (?) at 0.85 mil., volunteered or was forced to change positions to fill a void for the team, to one that he doesn't excel at, and gets a D. Strange brew for sure. Oh I forgot, Green made a lay up.

Exactly, give Neal starting SG and he will do great, getting open shots all day... Green being on the court because of his D is mostly a myth, he can play some D when PGs bring the ball up the court but other than that his on the ball D is atrocious.

[CubanMustGo]

Haha, thanks, I wasn't even going to reply to those posts. You are absolutely correct. Most of the numbers were even per game, and not per minute. :blah

Although I didn't quote it, the rest of your post was good too.

Regular season Matt Bonner, 8+ seasons, per 36 minutes:

3FG%: 41.8%
PPG: 12.9
RPG: 6.7

Playoff Matt Bonner, 6 seasons, per 36 minutes:

3FG%: 32.9% (-8.9%; 21% worse than regular season)
PPG: 8.8 (-4.1 PPG; 32% worse than regular season)
RPG: 5.9 (-0.8 RPG; 12% worse than regular season)


There you go. Now what?

[Slippy]

Tony finally seeing Tiago on that p'n'r. Didn't think he had the awareness or passing ability of a Manu to do it but proving me wrong. Last handfull of games running the show beautifully.

Liked how Tiago rose to the occasion in the 4th after getting blocked on couple of soft finishes in the third. He just seemed more energized and springy.

[Drz]

There you go. Now what?
Oh heck yeah... there's no doubt he's been way, way worse in the playoffs. My argument is that going forward, his past payoff foibles tell us very little about how he'll perform in the playoffs in the future.

Anyway, seems like a good spot to end the Bonner discussion in this thread. It's going nowhere, like always. I actually thought my post (#38) would open at least some people's eyes, but it's the only post in this thread that nobody paid any attention to. :(

[200 miles]

Oh heck yeah... there's no doubt he's been way, way worse in the playoffs. My argument is that going forward, his past payoff foibles tell us very little about how he'll perform in the playoffs in the future.

Anyway, seems like a good spot to end the Bonner discussion in this thread. It's going nowhere, like always. I actually thought my post (#38) would open at least some people's eyes, but it's the only post in this thread that nobody paid any attention to. :(

:lmao

[Em-City]

Come on, man. The teams that make the playoffs create game plans against the opposing team and make it one of the points of emphasis to shut down Bonner when he enters the game by running him off the three point line. Teams and players, alike, are more disciplined in the playoffs compared to the other 14 teams and countless players that do not make the playoffs.

The most straight-forward post is the one that makes the most sense

[BackHome]

Bonner is a good bench player for us when he is hitting the threes or when he is able to drive and score. He can help us win games in the regular season but as Rock20 said in the playoffs they game plan for him. So I don't mind giving him say 10 minutes a night in regular season and 5 minutes in playoffs.