Nazr Vs Rasho: The Rumble or...The Stumble?

[MannyIsGod]

Everyone here seems to think that it is automatic the Spurs will trade Rasho and live with Nazr as their center. Well, one thing is fairly certain and that is that the Spurs cannot afford to keep both of them long term. I think Nazr nearly played him self into a assured extension this offseason but may have just as quickly played himself out of one with his showing in the finals. He did almost NOTHING for this team in those 7 games, and even his playoff averages are not all that impressive.

PPG - 7.1
RPG - 6.7
BPG - 1.0
TO PG - 1.04
MPG - 23

His regular season stats with the Spurs were

PPG - 6.2
RPG - 6.4
BPG - 1.4
TOPG - 1.17
MPG - 18.0

Rasho's stats this year were:

PPG - 5.9
RPG - 6.6
BPG - 1.67
TOPG - 1.04
MPG - 25.5

All in all, the stats for Nazr and Rasho are very comparable. When you consider that bringing over Scola will more than likely mean whichever center that we keep will have a limited role and play about 25 minutes a game as a max, it doesn't become quite so clear as to which one the Spurs are going to keep.

Rasho is already locked up, however. And while Nazr definetly has more of an upside to him and has the potential to be a much better player, he also has the potential to comand a much higher salary that the Spurs will not be willing to spend.

If Nazr fails to show improvement this summer and early next season, remember that he is an expiring contract. And because he is also a center - always a tradeable asset in todays NBA - he could bring back some decent value in trade.

So while I expect the Spurs will shop Rasho around a bit this Summer, I doubt he will be moved. The situation isn't quite as cut and dry as some people would like to make it.

[samikeyp]

You think the Spurs will go to the "center by committee" option like the 90's Bulls did? (all though I don't think the economics of the situation will make that feasible) As long as they have someone to rebound and play defense...two things that both can do....it keeps people off of Duncan.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's a shame that it has to be an either/or proposition. The Spurs should pay to keep their depth in the frontcourt.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Well things get even muddier when you consider that Scola isn't exactly a done deal yet. From what many have said it looks like it will happen but even if it does it's going to take time for him to adjust to the league. And even then, isn't Scola listed at aroudn 6'9? That's not the kind of length that I want out of a back up center. It would make a lot more sense to bring Scola along slowly, splitting minutes with Horry at the backup PF or sliding over to center if there's foul trouble or a need to go small. That way Tim has depth behind him and Horry doesn't have to play heavy minutes if Tim gets in foul trouble.

[MannyIsGod]

It's a shame that it has to be an either/or proposition. The Spurs should pay to keep their depth in the frontcourt.
I think they have a good amount of depth (assuming Horry and Scola are both signed) in the front court. You can't have everybody though, and long term only one of those players is in the plans.

[BigDaddyMatty]

I don't think you trade away a legit CTR unless you really are blow away by what you get back. If you look back to the first half of last season, we were on pace to break the record for the largest vicotry margin average. That was with Rasho starting. So, you can say that we were playing our best ball with Rasho starting last year.

The Spurs are in a good position going into camp. Let Rasho and Nazr battle it out for the starting spot, and go from there. The depth does nothing but help. Cut down on Timmy and Rob's mins, while letting Scola ease into a spot in the rotation.

[Marcus Bryant]

Horry is a short term fix (2 years) and Scola is an unknown in the NBA. I mean, it's not much of a stretch in the NBA to have a significant amount committed to 4 bigs. I guarantee you that a lot of organizations wouldn't mind paying the little extra to ensure that TD has help up front for the long haul.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm hoping the Spurs keep both guys unless an adequate replacement could be found for Rasho.

Trade big for big. Don't release the Rasho, and don't trade him for a backup point guard.

[BigDaddyMatty]

Horry is a short term fix (2 years) and Scola is an unknown in the NBA. I mean, it's not much of a stretch in the NBA to have a significant amount committed to 4 bigs. I guarantee you that a lot of organizations wouldn't mind paying the little extra to ensure that TD has help up front for the long haul.
Exactly, the Spurs have to look to the future. I think the Spurs would much rather go into a season worrying about paying two starting caliber ctrs than worrying about not having a quality b/u.

Horry is going to play around 20 mins a game in the regular season, Timmy should play less minutes this season, and Scola is going to take most of the year figuring out the NBA game...We need every quality big man we have.

[ObiwanGinobili]

in a dream world the Spurs would be the onlu franchise allowed to keep a 20 man roster and then everyone could stay.

*sigh*

[BigDaddyMatty]

I'm hoping the Spurs keep both guys unless an adequate replacement could be found for Rasho.

Trade big for big. Don't release the Rasho, and don't trade him for a backup point guard.
Releasing Rasho would be the biggest mistake the Spurs have made since Malik's contract.

[Solid D]

Everyone here seems to think that it is automatic the Spurs will trade Rasho and live with Nazr as their center.

Correction:


Those less insightful souls here seem to think that it is automatic the Spurs will trade Rasho and live with Nazr as their center.

[MannyIsGod]

Fair enough!

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't think the Spurs do anything until the summer of '06. We still don't know how good Nazr Mohammed can really be in the Spurs system until he goes through a full training camp and season. I am still waiting to see if he really has bad hands or just got surprised by good passes. The guy has never played on a team that shares the basketball like the Spurs. Once he has it in his hands he definitely goes to the rack stronger than Rasho. Nice situation to be in where they don't have to decide till next summer.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, there's not really a need to make a decision this summer unless a good offer for Radoslav comes across the screen.

[boutons]

"has the potential to be a much better player"

My (unhappy) bet is that Nazr, at his age and years in NBA, is pretty much peaked out in individual skills, as is Rasho. Nazr may pick up the Spurs' interior defensive tactics/system better next year, but that would only get him to Rasho's level of defense. If the Spurs can't fix Tony's fucked up shooting, or turn Rasho into a roarer, they can't/won't fix Nazr's skills either.

Nazr had a couple wow games that Rasho hasn't had recently, and I think he benefitted from a normal honeymoon on this board.

But Rasho and Nazr are effectively equal, as seen by the stats.

I hoping they both can stay, and that the competition between them for starting and PT raises both their games. BINHMB

[King]

While most teams don't have one starting caliber center, the Spurs have two. I wouldn't mess with it. I don't see Rasho ever causing problems if he were to lose his starting position, because doing so might involve him to actually talk. Having a 7' starting caliber center on the bench is a luxury that the Spurs shouldn't change.

[JUUOT]

Yes the spurs have the chance to have at least 8 month ahaed before choosing and until next summer. you can even extend nazr now and than shop his contract during summer if you chose rasho

make them compete for the job until all star break and then freeze position.

for a complete season we do not have to worry about depth.

[Marcus Bryant]

The two hardest positions to fill in the NBA are the point and center. The Spurs are set at both with quality starters (in the case of the point, with a star) and a dependable backup.

A lot of teams in this league would love to have Parker-Beno and Nazr-Rasho at the 1 and 5, respectively. Holt Cat needs to open up the wallet and ensure that TD continues to have a solid supporting cast. They've been able to milk the luxury tax and TD enough.

[Extra Stout]

While I believe a Nazr extension means Rasho goes on the trade block, I wouldn't expect Rasho to be moved this summer.

Frankly, I doubt a Nazr extension gets done this year. Most likely, he lets himself become a FA and tests the market. In that case, the Spurs need to hold onto Rasho. If they acted rashly and dealt him too early, they could end up with no starting-caliber center at all.

[clubalien]

I think we should keep both what if someone gets injuried one be good to have a back up C or bigman plus it alows us to rest tim and horry more
anyone remember when Tim went down and rasho steped up,

[batman2883]

I know no one agree's with me on this subject but Rasho needs to go, im sorry the guy is getting paid too much to warm the bench. TD, Nazr, Horry, and Scola should be enough, if we dont get Scola, then i wouldnt mind keeping Rasho, however once Scola makes it here to San Antonio Rasho should pack his bags.

[Extra Stout]

The two hardest positions to fill in the NBA are the point and center. The Spurs are set at both with quality starters (in the case of the point, with a star) and a dependable backup.

A lot of teams in this league would love to have Parker-Beno and Nazr-Rasho at the 1 and 5, respectively. Holt Cat needs to open up the wallet and ensure that TD continues to have a solid supporting cast. They've been able to milk the luxury tax and TD enough.The Spurs actually have THREE centers right now, since when Duncan and Horry are on the floor, Duncan is playing C. The same would be true in a Duncan-Scola lineup.

Since both Nazr and Rasho are starting-caliber centers in a league starved of that commodity, that means the Spurs have a worthwhile trade asset in there somewhere. Say Nazr wants more money somewhere else -- the Spurs could do an S&T for a small forward, which they'll be needing in a year or two.

Or if they keep Nazr, then Rasho is trade bait. Either way, I think a starting small forward for the future would be a higher priority than a third center.

[ShoogarBear]

Personally, I don't see that Nazr is a clear-cut improvement over Rasho. He's more mobile, but that doesn't help if his not moving to the right spots. And of course his hands are horrible.

Other than saving bucks, I don't see the sense in committing to just one or the other of them.

[easjer]

Until Scola proves himself in the NBA, the Spurs cannot afford to let go of their big men.

Givne the choice between Nazr and Rasho - as of today, I'll take Rasho's great D and plodding O over Nazr's bad D and 7 pumpfakes under the basket any day. Now I leave room for changed opinions if Nazr improves his defense and learns to catch the ball (cause quality passes are indeed not something he saw a whole lot of).

[boutons]

If Scola arrives at next training camp, he will need a reduced-effectiveness rookie year to fit into the NBA, and above all, the Spurs system. Spurs need to find a way to hold onto Rasho at least to the ASB, or next summer.

[clubalien]

we only have 1 center if we trade rasho or nazr
TiM is a PF he said he hates and refuses to play C

[mcornelio]

Rasho For Life!! Sorry Nazr But Rasho Is My Favorite

[batman2883]

Until Scola proves himself in the NBA, the Spurs cannot afford to let go of their big men.

Givne the choice between Nazr and Rasho - as of today, I'll take Rasho's great D and plodding O over Nazr's bad D and 7 pumpfakes under the basket any day. Now I leave room for changed opinions if Nazr improves his defense and learns to catch the ball (cause quality passes are indeed not something he saw a whole lot of).


I can agree with that, Rasho may have the better D but Nazr is more athletic as in more aggressive, with the proper practice in training camp Nazr will surpase Rasho. I think he really needs to hit the practice gym hard this summer to work on his catching and defense. At this point i still say Nazr over Rasho though.

[MannyIsGod]

The Spurs actually have THREE centers right now, since when Duncan and Horry are on the floor, Duncan is playing C. The same would be true in a Duncan-Scola lineup.

Since both Nazr and Rasho are starting-caliber centers in a league starved of that commodity, that means the Spurs have a worthwhile trade asset in there somewhere. Say Nazr wants more money somewhere else -- the Spurs could do an S&T for a small forward, which they'll be needing in a year or two.

Or if they keep Nazr, then Rasho is trade bait. Either way, I think a starting small forward for the future would be a higher priority than a third center.
This is exactly my line of thinking. The center that is the worse of the 2 is probably trade fodder.

[kevm2]

Nazr. He put up similar stats as Rasho in less minutes per game while being transported into a new team about, what, 3/4's into the season? Rasho's been here two years. And with so little time on the team, it was Nazr who has started in the PLAYOFFS a year in which we won the championship.

I know people will say, "Rasho was injured and Pop didn't want to ruin the rotation." But that to you testifies to Nazr's quality. If Parker was injured and Beno had to start in the playoffs and Parker got better, do you honestly think Beno would still be starting? Nazr has proven of similar value as Rasho without even HALF a year. And Pop even said it himself. "Without Nazr, we wouldn't even be this far." Look at the series he had in Seattle. He WAS the X-factor in that series.

On the issue of Nazr's defense, I have no doubt in my mind that it will improve. When Rasho came over here, was he ever known as a defensive stopper? It took him time to learn the Spurs complex defensive schemes and he acclimated quite well. Give Nazr time and he will learn as well. Also, Nazr's supposed lack of defense didn't hurt us too bad this year as we won the championship.

[spurster]

If the Spurs want to save bucks, all they have to do is to wait a year when Nazr becomes a free agent. I would guess that was part of the original plan with the Malik-Nazr trade.

The Spurs could use a long 3, but can make do with Bowen, Manu, Devin, and Brent guarding 3s. There are not many minutes for another swingman so I don't see the Spurs spending MLE-or-higher salary for another one. You also have to think about whether Viktor Sanikidze will be able to fill that role.

[whottt]

I don't know what makes anyone think Scola is going to displace either of these guys as a heavy minutes contributor...

The Spurs D is built around shotblocking...Scola can't do it...

IMO, he's also a weak rebounder, even by Euroleague standards...

He's an offensive player who is limited and undersized on D...Like Malik...only without the rebounding...

It's very possible the Spurs want to keep Rasho and Nazr...I guess it depends on how much Nazr wants...keep in mind...Nazr has never had as good of a season as the one Rasho had in his FA year.

[zeleni]

1.Rasho is playing Eurobasket this year with and offensive center Brezec (Charlotte). Slovenian NT will now be mostly an offensive mashine, so Rasho will have to score a lot and play with no softness whatsoever. This is proclaimed as his last and finest game to be played internationaly. So he will absolutly be a better guy after this.

2. Nazr was high on the cloud #9. With so many changes he played his ass off and being accepted with the whole team he mostly played great. He didn't really have a bad game. Mostly he was controlled by his nerves. With season coming, he is in a different position.

3.This is an awsome year, and it is not even over! Belgrade, we will be your champs!

[ShoogarBear]

Sweet photo, spurster. Anyone know if a poster is available?

[Streakyshooter08]

I only would trade Rasho if its

a) for another center
b) Nazr is signed longterm

If you trade Rasho for a small player an Nazr decides to leave next summer, the spurs would be in trouble... I would keep him as long Nazr isn't extended...

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I only would trade Rasho if its

a) for another center
b) Nazr is signed longterm

If you trade Rasho for a small player an Nazr decides to leave next summer, the spurs would be in trouble... I would keep him as long Nazr isn't extended...

Amen, Nazr seems like a stand-up guy but he's only human and he'll want to get paid. If Rasho gets shipped out and Nazr becomes a free agent he'll be in a position to squeeze the Spurs pretty hard and hurt their cap flexibility.

[spurster]

Sweet photo, spurster. Anyone know if a poster is available?
The closest is a wallpaper at:

http://icq.nba.com/spurs/fans/download_wallpaper.html

[timvp]

One thing to realize is that Nazr might have a very high trade value right now. He's better than the Dampiers of the world and is coming off of a championship where he was the starting center. With one year on his contract, that gives flexibility to a team that would trade for him. If the Spurs believe that Horry, Rasho, Scola and Mahinmi are good enough in the short term and long term ... they could listen if teams call about Mohammed.

Part of the reason why the Spurs are here is they don't over value players on their own team. If a team is dying to get their hands on a center and comes knocking on the Spurs door, the Spurs would be smart enough to dangle Nazr if the return is great enough.

[ChumpDumper]

I still don't know which is the rumble and which is the stumble.

[Kori Ellis]

I still don't know which is the rumble and which is the stumble.

:lol

Me either.

Now if one of them was "fumble" then I would have know it was Nazr.

[clubalien]

clearly pop is the bumble

[smeagol]

I'm with Sparky on this one.

The Spurs have been economicaly prudent and it has paid off. They got Manu really cheap and Parker somewhat cheap. Now its time to open their wallets to keep the SPurs as competitive as possible and do the necessary adjustments to this team to allow it become a Dynasty.

Fuck Holt, you are worth millions, man! This is a one in a lifetime opportunity.

[whottt]

One thing to realize is that Nazr might have a very high trade value right now. He's better than the Dampiers of the world and is coming off of a championship where he was the starting center. With one year on his contract, that gives flexibility to a team that would trade for him. If the Spurs believe that Horry, Rasho, Scola and Mahinmi are good enough in the short term and long term ... they could listen if teams call about Mohammed.

Part of the reason why the Spurs are here is they don't over value players on their own team. If a team is dying to get their hands on a center and comes knocking on the Spurs door, the Spurs would be smart enough to dangle Nazr if the return is great enough.


Too bad we didn't offer the Suns Nazr before the Knicks offered them Thomas...

I'd have taken QRich as the future SF on this team, not to mention that little guard the Knicks got out of them...Yeah I know Q choked...but everyone forgets the best part of his game is his post up game...he's never been thought of as a pure 3 shooter before last season...

And the Suns are the only team that could be that desperate for a C...anyone else will probably just wait till he becomes a FA...

[spur219]

The thing is that Rasho will not improve and will remain the same. Mohammed is more athletic and is capable of having a couple of breakout games. He averaged a double double when he was in New York. He was only with the Spurs for half a season and in the Sonics series he turned out to be huge.

[Marcus Bryant]

'You take a rumble from the stumble and mix it up with the bumble...'


http://www.ohio.edu/performingarts/images/cosby2.jpg

[Solid D]

:lol

Me either.

Now if one of them was "fumble" then I would have know it was Nazr.

Bwahahahhahahahahhahahhahahhahahahah!!!!!!!!!
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

Some things just strike me as funny and that did.

[SenorSpur]

I don't think the Spurs do anything until the summer of '06. We still don't know how good Nazr Mohammed can really be in the Spurs system until he goes through a full training camp and season. I am still waiting to see if he really has bad hands or just got surprised by good passes. The guy has never played on a team that shares the basketball like the Spurs. Once he has it in his hands he definitely goes to the rack stronger than Rasho. Nice situation to be in where they don't have to decide till next summer.

Hey don't let Nazr off the hook - he's got one of the worse pair of hands in the league. It's amazing that a guy that boards as well as he does, has such terrible hands. What's up with the excessive pump fakes - CATCH & DUNK!

OK. Now that I've ragged on him a bit. I'd still take him back at our 5 slot and would resign him for years to come. He can only get better and he has the kind of aggressiveness that Rasho lacks.

[easjer]

The thing is that I don't think the Spurs should bank on Nazr's improvement. If they keep both and decide to get rid of one after seeing them through training camp, I wouldn't love it, but it would be a smart move.

If they want to lose one in preparation for cap clearing or whatever this summer, they should give up Nazr.

We know what we're getting with Rasho, and we know we can count on his D, which is more important to the Spurs system than his offense (which is ok - he's got a decent jumper and can help to spread the floor). He may get more aggressive - I base that on his play right before the ankle injury - he'd really stepped it up. We've lived with that for awhile now, and could continue to do so, especially if Scola can slide and is as good as he is supposed to be.

But Nazr? What he know of him is that he's aggressive, but doesn't have a great jump shot, fumbled a lot of passes, pumpfakes, doesn't box out, doesn't get the defensive system yet, and may or may not improve any of those things given time. However, he's done all right, and has probably earned himself a pretty good contract as a champion in a position that is coveted.

So, that is the long way of working out that I agree with timvp - if they are going to shop out a big man, Nazr's the one to shop this summer.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I see the Spurs trying to extend Nazr this summer, and depending on how those negotiations go will determine how this whole situation plays out.

If they can come to something reasonable, he stays and Rasho goes. If his agent gets greedy, he goes on the block.

As an aside, I have a hunch that Holt isn't going to be as worried about the luxury tax as we have known him to be.

The reason? The new CBA stipulates ALL teams get an equal cut of the luxury tax revenue.

I'd have to take some time to put pen to paper on that, but I bet you could figure out roughly what you know other teams are going to be over the lux tax, how much revenue is coming to each team, and spend up to that amount over the tax.

Example: say there's 120 million in luxury tax revenue, divided to 30 teams means each team gets 4 million coming back to them. I could see Holt and Co. easily willing to spend within that artificial lux limit, and I could even see them willing to go over it by a small amount if need be.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I just don't see how we can't count a little bit on Nazr's improvement.


They said in new york that he sucked when they traded him to us. Well how many summers has he had practicing with Tim Duncan, getting pointers from the likes of Pop, Robinson, trying to defend block quick ass guards like tony parker, etc etc

I think if the guy is motivated, and shows some hard work ethic this summer we will see results....mostly because the areas he lacks in are the easiest to improve in my opinion. Its just fundamnetal things you need to train your mind and body to do automatically...boxing out...keeping the ball up and going up after rebounds...catching passes

i would say these skills are FAR easier to improve than something like say, jump shooting, explosiveness, strength, and so on. We know Nazr has got better hops than Rasho. In my opinion, thats the only reason Rasho sucks. How many times in the past 2 seasons have we seen our Center catch a rebound right under the basket and is incapable of putting it back up? Rasho at least stays agressive and tries to float it up there. We know Nazr is capable of slamming the hell out of it. He's just gotta work on footwork, balance, and practic practice practice.

If he wants to do this, he will improve...

After we lost D-rob all i wanted to see was a center that was capable of help defense, rebounding, and putbacks.

We got everything but the putbacks. There are so many easy scores in our system with duncan taking close shots, but we've had no center to properly take advantage of them yet.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I think the 'won't improve' argument has no merit.

Anyone with half a brain saw the improvement he made from Feb. 27 to the playoffs.

I just hope the Spurs can extend him for a reasonable contract this summer, before he blows up next year.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I just hope the Spurs can extend him for a reasonable contract this summer, before he blows up next year.

100% agree. :tu :tu :tu

[Mr. Body]

Mohammed will be the starting Center for this team until Mahinmi takes over the spot.

[SequSpur]

Rasho fucking blows.

Scoreboard.