All-Time Scorers Team

[stretch]

Chose three teams (and an honorable mention team if you would like) of 2 guards, 2 forwards, and a center who are perhaps the best scorers the game has ever seen. Consider all aspects of scoring, whether shooting mid-range jump shots, long-range jump shots, finishing at the hoop, unusual but unguardable shots, scoring off the ball, creating your own shot, scoring off the dribble, scoring with footwork and moves... everything that has to do with scoring. I want guys who were capable of finding a way to score at any given time, in virtually any given situation.

Stats of course play an important part in this, but the ability/skill-set to score is equal, if not greater. For instance, Shaq has better scoring stats than many centers, but is he truly an elite scorer, or an elite physical presence? He had better career scoring stats than Hakeem, but is he a better scorer? Lebron may have better scoring stats than Carmello, but is he really a better pure scorer?

Also, if a player was interchangable between G/F or F/C, but them in whichever you feel. Such as Tim Duncan and Kevin McHale could be considered either a PF or a C, as both players frequently played time at both positions, and both played either style of position very well on the offensive end.

1st team

G - Michael Jordan
G - Kobe Bryant
F - Carmello Anthony
F - Larry Bird
C - Hakeem Olajuwon

2nd team

G - Allen Iverson
G - Jerry West
F - Charles Barkley
F - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3rd team

G - Oscar Robertson
G - Tracy McGrady
F - Kevin Durant
F - Mark Aguirre
C - Kevin McHale

Honorable Mention

G - Vince Carter
G - Dwayne Wade
F - Lebron James
F - Paul Pierce
C - Yao Ming

In my list, I hated doing so, and I know some will complain (especially Spurs fans) but I had to give certain guys the shaft such as George Gervin, Alex English, Karl Malone and Bernard King, who were AMAZING scorers, and put up great scoring stats, but weren't quite as complete of scorers as others. Some guys I left off the list had bigger holes in their game than the ones I included, whether it was ball-handling, shooting ability, ability to create their own shot, legitimate moves/footwork, or others. Remember, that this isn't a matter of who is a better basketball player. Just who the best pure scorers are.

[StrengthAndHonor]

LeBron should be on anyone's 1st team list.

[stretch]

LeBron should be on anyone's 1st team list.

Why?

I'm about as big of a Lebron fan as any, but he absolutely is not a better pure scorer than Bird or Carmello. At least not yet. I put him a little more in the "Shaq" category of things, as he is just too dominant physically for people to stop him, but when he is asked to break defenders down with a series of moves or a difficult jumpshot, I don't think he could consistently do that as well as other forwards.

[lebomb]

G-Michael Jordan (Too many scoring titles)
G-George Gervin (See above)
F-Durant (Can shoot inside/out)
F-Lebron (Too big to stop)
C-Wilt (100pts in a game and see Lebron)

If you are purely talking about scoring and the most unstoppable at scoring.

[stretch]

G-Michael Jordan
G-George Gervin
F-Durant
F-Lebron
C-Wilt

If you are purely talking about scoring and the most unstoppable at scoring.

I said three teams, and to take into consideration scoring ability as well. Then again, I shouldn't expect your shitty UTSA education to be able to comprehend that, faggot.

[lebomb]

I said three teams, and to take into consideration scoring ability as well. Then again, I shouldn't expect your shitty UTSA education to be able to comprehend that, faggot.

I will shove my diploma up your dads ass. Fuck you. You dont even understand basketball, getting cut from the freshman team lil bitch.

[stretch]

I will shove my diploma up your dads ass. Fuck you. You dont even understand basketball, getting cut from the freshman team lil bitch.

lol utsa

[lebomb]

lol utsa

Tell me how my diploma taste

[JMarkJohns]

Karl Malone?

[stretch]

Karl Malone?

IMO, idk if he could consistently create his own shot, particularly when faced with very tough defenders or a strong team defense geared to take his strengths away. I think he relied too much on Stockton and the PnR. But I understand if someone were to include him on their own list, or to take issue with mine.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Too lazy to make 3 teams tbh. I pretty much agree with your first team, stretch, outside of Melo, but I don't think him being there is as ridiculous as GNSFs will say. I'd put Durant over him regardless of how he's only played a few years, especially now that Durant has improved his efficiency even more and is a 40% three point shooter.

[stretch]

Too lazy to make 3 teams tbh. I pretty much agree with your first team, stretch, outside of Melo, but I don't think him being there is as ridiculous as GNSFs will say. I'd put Durant over him regardless of how he's only played a few years, especially now that Durant has improved his efficiency even more and is a 40% three point shooter.

It was really hard to not put Durant up there. But in every postseason run, he had periods where he really struggled to create his own shot, which is why I bumped him down. But I have no doubt in my mind, that when his career is over, he will be one of the three greatest scorers to ever play.

IMO, Melo's biggest issue is mental, whether his mind wanders, or he resorts for too many bad shots. But in terms of scoring, I think an argument can be made that when he is focused, he might be the most difficult scorer to stop, because I seriously cannot think of manner in which he cannot score.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It was really hard to not put Durant up there. But in every postseason run, he had periods where he really struggled to create his own shot, which is why I bumped him down. But I have no doubt in my mind, that when his career is over, he will be one of the three greatest scorers to ever play.

IMO, Melo's biggest issue is mental, whether his mind wanders, or he resorts for too many bad shots. But in terms of scoring, I think an argument can be made that when he is focused, he might be the most difficult scorer to stop, because I seriously cannot think of manner in which he cannot score.
I agree. He's got the most diverse scoring arsenal in the game right now when he's focused.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Why?

I'm about as big of a Lebron fan as any, but he absolutely is not a better pure scorer than Bird or Carmello. At least not yet. I put him a little more in the "Shaq" category of things, as he is just too dominant physically for people to stop him, but when he is asked to break defenders down with a series of moves or a difficult jumpshot, I don't think he could consistently do that as well as other forwards.
I'm not the biggest fan of LeBron but I call a spade a spade. He's absolutely a much better scorer than Anthony or Bird. Remeber this is a guy who loves to make everyone better. He can average 35 points in a playoff series and still dish out 8 assists per contest.

Lebron's last 2 season has been spectacular. He was hitting his jumpers with confidence (which was his achilles heel). There's no other player in the league right now that can score the way he does. I remember Kobe in 2006-2008, you watch the guy and know everytime he holds the ball on top of the key for a good 2-3 seconds, reads the defense and attacks the basket, he will score 90% of the time. It was just automatic. Ofensively, LeBron is having those type of moments now. Its disrespectful.

[stretch]

I'm not the biggest fan of LeBron but I call a spade a spade. He's absolutely a much better scorer than Anthony or Bird. Remeber this is a guy who loves to make everyone better. He can average 35 points in a playoff series and still dish out 8 assists per contest.

Lebron's last 2 season has been spectacular. He was hitting his jumpers with confidence (which was his achilles heel). There's no other player in the league right now that can score the way he does. I remember Kobe in 2006-2008, you watch the guy and know everytime he holds the ball on top of the key for a good 2-3 seconds, reads the defense and attacks the basket, he will score 90% of the time. It was just automatic. Ofensively, LeBron is having those type of moments now. Its disrespectful.

To each their own. I just don't think he is as versatile of a scorer as others... yet. He might be every bit as lethal or impossible to guard, but that is due to his athletic ability more so than his pure scoring ability.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Durant is not a better scorer than Lebron at this point. Without the huge amount of ref protection he gets nowadays, he'll be a 23-24ppg scorer. Not even that impressive.

[stretch]

Durant is not a better scorer than Lebron at this point. Without the huge amount of ref protection he gets nowadays, he'll be a 23-24ppg scorer. Not even that impressive.

I agree he gets ref protected, but dude has incredible skills. He can shoot basically any kind of jumpshot (with almost limitless range) and do so exceedingly well. He can put the ball on the floor and get to the rim and finish tough layups, has a nice floater for when team defenses crowd his drives, and has a couple different moves (perimeter and post) he can use to get space and create his own shot when going one-on-one.

[JoeTait75]

To each their own. I just don't think he is as versatile of a scorer as others... yet. He might be every bit as lethal or impossible to guard, but that is due to his athletic ability more so than his pure scoring ability.

Agreed. I don't think LeBron is a good enough pure shooter to really consider him a "scorer" nor does he have the post moves. Actually, I'd put Bernard King ahead of LeBron as a pure scorer, although LeBron is obviously a better overall player.

[Medvedenko]

I would have Pistol Pete on the second team. He's one of best pure scorers the world has ever seen.

[stretch]

I would have Pistol Pete on the second team. He's one of best pure scorers the world has ever seen.

Definitely thought of him as well.

Awful percentages though. Too much of an argument can be made that he was more of a volume and rhythm scorer, than a pure scorer.

[Killakobe81]

Why?

I'm about as big of a Lebron fan as any, but he absolutely is not a better pure scorer than Bird or Carmello. At least not yet. I put him a little more in the "Shaq" category of things, as he is just too dominant physically for people to stop him, but when he is asked to break defenders down with a series of moves or a difficult jumpshot, I don't think he could consistently do that as well as other forwards.

I agree 100% better player and of course he can score more if he wanted to but that is not his natural mentality and his game is shaq like (though better skilled) in that it relies on his amazing size/speed ratio. The shaq comparison is apt Lebron is like a smaller, faster and better skilled (handles, passing) Shaq. And there really is no one else (singular) to compare him to. I guess the Magic/Karl Malone/Piippen hybrid comes closest ...

My list: (guys I have seen play at least part of their prime only)

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Durant
4. Nique
5. Kareem

Funny thing is Durant who is a bit of a gunner is probably the most unselfish along with Kareem of this 5 ...

1. Isiah
2. TMAC
3. Bird
4. Karl
5. Hakeem

I snuck in Isiah because I hate to list two teams with no PG, but AI, Wade and Pre knee injury Tim Hardaway could of been there as well ...

[JMarkJohns]

If pure scorers:

Iverson
Jordan
Durant
James
Chamberlain

If skills and chemistry factors in:

West
Jordan
Bird
Durant
Abdul-Jabbar

[Killakobe81]

One more note. Though Durant is very unique I remember when Kobe used to be able to do what Durant did tothe Clips last night. Not saying Kobe cant still score but what Durant did last night from a pure scorer stand-point ...Kobe probably hasnt done in that two seasons AT LEAST ...

[midnightpulp]

I agree 100% better player and of course he can score more if he wanted to but that is not his natural mentality and his game is shaq like (though better skilled) in that it relies on his amazing size/speed ratio. The shaq comparison is apt Lebron is like a smaller, faster and better skilled (handles, passing) Shaq. And there really is no one else (singular) to compare him to. I guess the Magic/Karl Malone/Piippen hybrid comes closest ...

My list: (guys I have seen play at least part of their prime only)

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Durant
4. Nique
5. Kareem

Funny thing is Durant who is a bit of a gunner is probably the most unselfish along with Kareem of this 5 ...

1. Isiah
2. TMAC
3. Bird
4. Dirk
5. Hakeem

I snuck in Isiah because I hate to list two teams with no PG, but AI, Wade and Pre knee injury Tim Hardaway could of been there as well ...

Pretty much my list, substituting Dirk for .463.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I don't think Isiah belongs on the 1st team. Id put Mitch Richmond on anyones list before Isiah. And Melo's ability to score is vastly overrated. Gilbert Arenas deserves some mention too.

[ambchang]

1st team - Jordan, Kobe, Durant, Dirk, Kareem
2nd team - AI, West, Bird, Gervin, Wilt
3rd team - Archibald, English, Nique, Durant, Shaq

[stretch]

And Melo's ability to score is vastly overrated. Gilbert Arenas deserves some mention too.

You must be a fucking moron to bash on Melo's ability to score, then say Arenas deserves mention.

[StrengthAndHonor]

You must be a fucking moron to bash on Melo's ability to score, then say Arenas deserves mention.

You're fucking stupid. I said Arenas deserves a mention if people are putting Isiah on the guard list. Melo doesn't deserve 1st team love. This is too personal for you, relax.

[Clipper Nation]

You're fucking stupid. I said Arenas deserves a mention if people are putting Isiah on the guard list. Melo doesn't deserve 1st team love. This is too personal for you, relax.
:lol

[stretch]

You're fucking stupid. I said Arenas deserves a mention if people are putting Isiah on the guard list. Melo doesn't deserve 1st team love. This is too personal for you, relax.

lol thinking im taking this personal
lol thinking arenas is comparable to isiah
lol thinking lebron is the best pure scoring forward ever

[Koolaid_Man]

LeBron should be on anyone's 1st team list.

Lebron doesn't have a single 60 pt game..so no.... stop being enamored with his girth

[JMarkJohns]

Arenas never faced true zone defenses or handchecking, nor did he play within a quality system designed to produce more efficient offense the way Zeke did.

Arenas would have been Vinnie Johnson had he played when Thomas played. Nothing more. And Arenas went to Arizona, the college I cheer for, so I'm enough of a fan to not be called a hater... Or fucking stupid.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Lebron doesn't have a single 60 pt game..so no.... stop being enamored with his girth

By choice not because of his inability. If he took the same FGA as Kobe he'll have a 60 point game by now.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Arenas never faced true zone defenses or handchecking, nor did he play within a quality system designed to produce more efficient offense the way Zeke did.

Arenas would have been Vinnie Johnson had he played when Thomas played. Nothing more. And Arenas went to Arizona, the college I cheer for, so I'm enough of a fan to not be called a hater... Or fucking stupid.
Scorers will always find a way to score. Regardless of what era they play. Its just a convenient excuse.

[lebomb]

To each their own. I just don't think he is as versatile of a scorer as others... yet. He might be every bit as lethal or impossible to guard, but that is due to his athletic ability more so than his pure scoring ability.

This just shows how FUCKING STUPID you are. Who cares how you score.....if you can score, you can fuckin score. I could probably avg 30pts a game running by your dumbass with layups, am I not considered good at scoring? LMAO!!! at this stupid ass cut from the freshman basketball team, never went to college dick butter.

[lebomb]

Scorers will always find a way to score. Regardless of what era they play. Its just a convenient excuse.

X2 How the fuck can you judge scoring? If someone drops 50pts a night on your ass with 3pt'ers or layups, they are still a good scorer. Now if you break it down to shooting? or dunking or say free throws?....... Yeah, its easier to argue. But this dick doesnt get basketball at all. Stench.....LOL

[Leetonidas]

Gonna try and make mine slightly different (trying to use a traditional lineup)

PG - Allen Iverson
SG - Michael Jordan
SF - Bernard King
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon (though if you don't consider him a PF you can put Nowitzki here)
C - Yao Ming

[stretch]

Gonna try and make mine slightly different (trying to use a traditional lineup)

PG - Allen Iverson
SG - Michael Jordan
SF - Bernard King
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon (though if you don't consider him a PF you can put Nowitzki here)
C - Yao Ming

Funny you say Yao, because I was thinking of him heavily as well. He definitely had some great scoring talent to go along with his size and length. Too bad China screwed up his career... would have loved to see him have a full, healthy career.

[Leetonidas]

How about a team of scorers who may not have had the most complete scoring game but are virtually unstoppable with their go to moves or their physical dominance? (not a traditional lineup)

G - George Gervin
G - Michael Jordan
F - LeBron James
F - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Shaq

Or a team of two-way players who were elite on both ends of the floor...

PG - Thomas
SG - Jordan
SF - James
PF - Duncan
C - Olajuwon

[Leetonidas]

Funny you say Yao, because I was thinking of him heavily as well. He definitely had some great scoring talent to go along with his size and length. Too bad China screwed up his career... would have loved to see him have a full, healthy career.

I've never seen a big with the touch Yao had as well as being a silky smooth shooter with such length/size. I agree man, fuck China. Imagine how they'd be ballin with a healthy Yao + Harden :wow

[stretch]

This just shows how FUCKING STUPID you are. Who cares how you score.....if you can score, you can fuckin score. I could probably avg 30pts a game running by your dumbass with layups, am I not considered good at scoring? LMAO!!! at this stupid ass cut from the freshman basketball team, never went to college dick butter.

That's cool and all, but I clearly stated in the post, that it's not all about stats. I stated a number of different manners in which players are able to score should be considered as more of a factor than stats in this type of rankings.

If we went entirely by stats, then not a single player in the NBA today would be on the list, because none of them have as big of stats as players in the past. However, do a little research, and you see it is heavily influenced by the lack of defense played in the past, as well as the faster pace of game resulting in more possessions for everyone. Or in Wilt's case, the extreme lack of competition and physical match-ups allowed him to average 50 a season. But is he truly a better scorer than MJ? No way in hell.

lol utsa

[stretch]

How about a team of scorers who may not have had the most complete scoring game but are virtually unstoppable with their go to moves or their physical dominance? (not a traditional lineup)

G - George Gervin
G - Michael Jordan
F - LeBron James
F - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Shaq


Can't think of too many better than this. Only possible adjustment would be Kareem, however Shaq and Kareem would basically be a tie. Shaq for his physical dominance, Kareem for his unstoppable skyhook. Can't go wrong with either.

[stretch]

I've never seen a big with the touch Yao had as well as being a silky smooth shooter with such length/size. I agree man, fuck China. Imagine how they'd be ballin with a healthy Yao + Harden :wow

That would be a rough duo to go against...

[lebomb]

However, do a little research, and you see it is heavily influenced by the lack of defense played in the past, as well as the faster pace of game resulting in more possessions for everyone. Or in Wilt's case, the extreme lack of competition and physical match-ups allowed him to average 50 a season. But is he truly a better scorer than MJ? No way in hell.



Hopefully this answered your own question............ WE WILL NEVER KNOW. He played decades ago. Maybe he would have done just as well. Is he a better scorer than MJ?.........Who the fuck knows. Its all speculation. Im just going by what numbers Ive seen put up during the games, over a career. Thats all you can go on dumbass.

[StrengthAndHonor]

lol thinking im taking this personal
lol thinking arenas is comparable to isiah
lol thinking lebron is the best pure scoring forward ever

1. Dont get upset when people disagree with you.
2. You need to learn how to fucking read. I said Mitch Richmond. Arenas was just a mention.
3. You need to comprehend. I never said he's the best pure scoring forward ever. I said he deserves to be on the 1st team.

You were decent at first then you resorted to twisting some of my statement. That's pathetic. Tbh.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Hopefully this answered your own question............ WE WILL NEVER KNOW. He played decades ago. Maybe he would have done just as well. Is he a better scorer than MJ?.........Who the fuck knows. Its all speculation. Im just going by what numbers Ive seen put up during the games, over a career. Thats all you can go on dumbass.

+1

[stretch]

Hopefully this answered your own question............ WE WILL NEVER KNOW. He played decades ago. Maybe he would have done just as well. Is he a better scorer than MJ?.........Who the fuck knows. Its all speculation. Im just going by what numbers Ive seen put up during the games, over a career. Thats all you can go on dumbass.

Or you could have actually watched some of the players, and seen the skill-sets they possessed. Wilt didn't have a massive skill-set, just like Shaq didn't have a massive skill-set. Hakeem's was far greater. They both had more of a physical advantage, which resulted in better scoring stats, but everyone knew that they had limitations as to what they could do outside of using their size and strength advantage. Hakeem could pretty much do anything scoring wise that you could ask for a guy of his size.



On a side note, I have no idea why I'm even debating this with you, when 98% of the people on this forum can actually have a quality discussion on this matter, while you are more focused on bragging about your shit diploma, then coming on here and showing off your tremendous education with awful grammar, spelling, and a poor level of simple reading comprehension in general. You literally might be one of the 3 biggest dumbasses on this entire forum. I fully expect some sort of retarded reply with all kinds of nonsense, stupid insults that include calling me "stench" as if that actually has some sort of clever thought behind it, and pretty much the same crap as usual.

I've never considered blocking a user, and generally think that blocking a user is gay, but in your case, an exception might be made, because you are seriously that bad of a poster. Most people who's post quality is as low as yours, are intentionally trolling. You, on the other hand, are not.

[ElNono]

1st team

G - Michael Jordan
G - Kobe Bryant
F - Carmello Anthony
F - Larry Bird
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

2nd team

G - Allen Iverson
G - Jerry West
F - Charles Barkley
F - Manu Ginobili
C - Hakeem Olajuwon

3rd team

G - Oscar Robertson
G - Tracy McGrady
F - Kevin Durant
F - Lebron James
C - Moses Malone

Honorable Mention

G - Vince Carter
G - Dwayne Wade
F - Mark Aguirre
F - Paul Pierce
C - Kevin McHale


fify, tbh, fwiw

[StrengthAndHonor]

Or you could have actually watched some of the players, and seen the skill-sets they possessed. Wilt didn't have a massive skill-set, just like Shaq didn't have a massive skill-set. Hakeem's was far greater. They both had more of a physical advantage, which resulted in better scoring stats, but everyone knew that they had limitations as to what they could do outside of using their size and strength advantage. Hakeem could pretty much do anything scoring wise that you could ask for a guy of his size.



On a side note, I have no idea why I'm even debating this with you, when 98% of the people on this forum can actually have a quality discussion on this matter, while you are more focused on bragging about your shit diploma, then coming on here and showing off your tremendous education with awful grammar, spelling, and a poor level of simple reading comprehension in general. You literally might be one of the 3 biggest dumbasses on this entire forum. I fully expect some sort of retarded reply with all kinds of nonsense, stupid insults that include calling me "stench" as if that actually has some sort of clever thought behind it, and pretty much the same crap as usual.

I've never considered blocking a user, and generally think that blocking a user is gay, but in your case, an exception might be made, because you are seriously that bad of a poster. Most people who's post quality is as low as yours, are intentionally trolling. You, on the other hand, are not.

:lol taking this shit personal

[stretch]

1. Dont get upset when people disagree with you.
2. You need to learn how to fucking read. I said Mitch Richmond. Arenas was just a mention.
3. You need to comprehend. I never said he's the best pure scoring forward ever. I said he deserves to be on the 1st team.

You were decent at first then you resorted to twisting some of my statement. That's pathetic. Tbh.


:lol taking this shit personal


You obviously have not been here long enough...

[stretch]

fify, tbh, fwiw

i knew it

faggot

[Raven]

none has mentioned Ray Allen or Reggie Miller yet..

[stretch]

none has mentioned Ray Allen or Reggie Miller yet..

There is a good reason why.

[JoeTait75]

Glen Rice? Chris Mullin?

[stretch]

Glen Rice? Chris Mullin?

It was hard to not have a spot for them either.

[ffadicted]

Durant is guaranteed 1st team on this tbh.

G - AI
G - MJ
F - KD
F - Malone?
C - Kareem

[StrengthAndHonor]

You obviously have not been here long enough...

No. But I'm getting used to it now :lol. One minute people here are decent the next post they're schizo. Whatever. Just passing time here at work.

[stretch]

No. But I'm getting used to it now :lol. One minute people here are decent the next post they're schizo. Whatever. Just passing time here at work.

Just don't take everything quite so literally, and you will be fine, lol.

This is definitely a great way to pass time at work. Makes my days fly by.

[JMarkJohns]

The argument that a scorer is a scorer regardless of when played is flawed. It's odd you call the inverse convenient without acknowledging the laziness in your own argument. Zone defenses and handchecking inhibited more scoring than you think. I suppose the opposite is I believe Thomas would be vastly superior statistically playing in this generation than his own.

[Leetonidas]

none has mentioned Ray Allen or Reggie Miller yet..

Because we're talking about scorers, not shooters. Allen and Miller were deadly from distance but they didn't possess amazing post games and weren't known for consistently getting to the rim

[ambchang]

Lebron doesn't have a single 60 pt game..so no.... stop being enamored with his girth

Robinson is the only center not named Wilt to ever score >70, should he be on the 2nd team then?

[StrengthAndHonor]

Because we're talking about scorers, not shooters. Allen and Miller were deadly from distance but they didn't possess amazing post games and weren't known for consistently getting to the rim

Yup. Same thing goes fo Glen Rice and Mullin.

[lebomb]

:lol taking this shit personal

Yeah, he is a bitch and needs to STFU if he can only complain about me spitting out my top all time scoring team.........I dont have 3 teams damnit. So get the fuck over it. I will challenge you to anything and everything basketball. Playing, talking about it, debating it, you name it. I played ball since I was 7yrs old. Junior high, HS, limited college, and still averaged 17pts a game in the over 30 leagues. So STFU.

[StrengthAndHonor]

The argument that a scorer is a scorer regardless of when played is flawed. It's odd you call the inverse convenient without acknowledging the laziness in your own argument. Zone defenses and handchecking inhibited more scoring than you think. I suppose the opposite is I believe Thomas would be vastly superior statistically playing in this generation than his own.

Players who have excellent scoring fundamentals will score in almost anything the defense throws at them. They may experience a dip in percentage but they will find a way to score. A player with a scoring mentality and is equipped with a great shooting touch will score plenty in any era.

[lebomb]

The argument that a scorer is a scorer regardless of when played is flawed. It's odd you call the inverse convenient without acknowledging the laziness in your own argument. Zone defenses and handchecking inhibited more scoring than you think. I suppose the opposite is I believe Thomas would be vastly superior statistically playing in this generation than his own.

Ok..........prove it then. :rolleyes You cant!!!! I just go by what they did when they played over their ENTIRE career. Gervin was basically unstoppable as were the others I mentioned during their era. This will always be a tough debate, so I just go with the numbers. Thats why there is a never ending debate over the Dream Team vs 2012's team. Who the hellz knowz. :toast


To validate my point............ I played city league (over 30) a group of old white men.....all in their late 40's and 50's won the league going away. Against teams of younger men that were dunking, cross overs, played college, you name it. So NONE of that this era vs that era shit means nothing. Noone knows what someones scoring average would have been in a different time period. Go with how they played and scored WHEN they played and scored.

[JMarkJohns]

Arenas did not have excellent scoring fundamentals. He was wreckless in drives, and was an average to mediocre shooter. Put a wreckless guard in a handchecking, zone defense and he FTs diminish from less penetration, and his chucking increases, finding a decrease in efficiency.

Arenas averaged 7-8 threes a game... Taken. Imagine if he couldn't drive past his man.

[stretch]

The argument that a scorer is a scorer regardless of when played is flawed. It's odd you call the inverse convenient without acknowledging the laziness in your own argument. Zone defenses and handchecking inhibited more scoring than you think. I suppose the opposite is I believe Thomas would be vastly superior statistically playing in this generation than his own.


Players who have excellent scoring fundamentals will score in almost anything the defense throws at them. Theu may experience a dip in percentage but they will find a way to score. A player with a scoring mentality and is equipped with a great shooting touch will score plenty in any era

IMO, there is a medium between both of your arguments.

Some players would definitely get affected by the different rules (handchecking in the past, zone in the present), however most of the top scorers wouldn't be affected too much. They would find ways to adjust. Maybe certain aspects of their game would be a little less effective, but let's not kid ourselves... people still hand check today, they just can't do it as blatantly as in the past, just like people played zone in the past, just had better ways of disguising it. Watch any elite defender, and you will still see them have a hand down near the hip of their defender, subtly holding them back. They just do it much more tightly so it isn't seen by refs.

[JMarkJohns]

Ok..........prove it then. :rolleyes You cant!!!! I just go by what they did when they played over their ENTIRE career. Gervin was basically unstoppable as were the others I mentioned during their era. This will always be a tough debate, so I just go with the numbers. Thats why there is a never ending debate over the Dream Team vs 2012's team. Who the hellz knowz. :toast


To validate my point............ I played city league (over 30) a group of old white men.....all in their late 40's and 50's won the league going away. Against teams of younger men that were dunking, cross overs, played college, you name it. So NONE of that this era vs that era shit means nothing. Noone knows what someones scoring average would have been in a different time period. Go with how they played and scored WHEN they played and scored.

Goddamn this is one of the worst "my point is right" arguments I have ever seen.

You do realize you can't prove your side either?
That I was actually arguing that the 1980s had tougher defenses?
That I was making a specific argument against a specific player?
That rec league is not tantamount to NBA?

[JMarkJohns]

IMO, there is a medium between both of your arguments.

Some players would definitely get affected by the different rules (handchecking in the past, zone in the present), however most of the top scorers wouldn't be affected too much. They would find ways to adjust. Maybe certain aspects of their game would be a little less effective, but let's not kid ourselves... people still hand check today, they just can't do it as blatantly as in the past, just like people played zone in the past, just had better ways of disguising it. Watch any elite defender, and you will still see them have a hand down near the hip of their defender, subtly holding them back. They just do it much more tightly so it isn't seen by refs.

I never said skills were not transferable. I made the case Thomas' would be better vs. worse defense of today, and the unfundamentally sound chucked, Arenas, inversely would struggle more.

Specific cases, not generational generalities.

[Crytek]

I would have Pistol Pete on the second team. He's one of best pure scorers the world has ever seen.



Definitely thought of him as well.

Awful percentages though. Too much of an argument can be made that he was more of a volume and rhythm scorer, than a pure scorer.


That argument can not be made, imo fwiw. The Three-point line was not instituted till his last year (on his last leg).
Considering his longrange skills and how many shots he took from way out, his numbers would climb significantly.
How significantly? IDK @ NBA, but at college


Maravich played before the advent of the three-point line. His long-distance shooting skill thus produced far fewer points than would have been the case in a later era. Years later, former LSU head basketball coach Dale Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Brown_%28basketball%29) charted every college game Maravich played, taking into consideration all shots he took. Brown calculated that at the NCAA rule of a three-point line at 19-foot (5.8 m), 9-inches from the rim, Maravich would have averaged thirteen 3-point scores per game, lifting the player's career average (from 44) to 57 points per game.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Maravich#cite_note-8)


Prorated that would mean an 31.3 NBA Career PPG, good for an increase of 18 ranks in this list (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html)

[stretch]

I never said skills were not transferable. I made the case Thomas' would be better vs. worse defense of today, and the unfundamentally sound chucked, Arenas, inversely would struggle more.

Specific cases, not generational generalities.

What you just said, I basically agreed with in my last post. I said some players would definitely be affected.

However, I STRONGLY disagree that the 80's had better defense than today. IMO the 80's had awful defense in general, even with handchecking.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Arenas did not have excellent scoring fundamentals. He was wreckless in drives, and was an average to mediocre shooter..

Peak, Arenas had 57% TS average while putting up a very good 24 PER. He averaged 29 ppg on 2 seasons. You don't get those numbers in the league for 2 yrs if you don't have excellent scoring fundamentals. This is not the D League. Gtfoh.

[StrengthAndHonor]

And Isiah is probably the worst example to prove your point. Dude averaged 75% at the line, which is shitty for a point guard. And his best scoring average? He was attempting 19 FGA to average 20 points a game. That's horrible.:lol

[LkrFan]

Where's the Stilt? He should be number 1. I understand Cap being on your first team, but he's the all-time leading scorer due to long term excellence. But Wilt was flat out the better scorer (Cap was the better overall player though).

[JMarkJohns]

Arenas was a product of getting to the FT line. Zone defenses and handchecking would negate some of this.

His shooting was always subpar.

There's a reason his stats plummeted upon loss of explosive quickness while players like Pierce have suffered injury and aged and are still better, more efficient scorers. That reason is a lack of fundamentals, lack of shooting skills, lack of structure.

And, stretch, overall offensive fundamentals were better in the 80s, so tougher aspects of defense weren't as effective. Once fundamentals declined, the league helped offense by regulating defense more.

[rayjayjohnson]

Why?

I'm about as big of a Lebron fan as any, but he absolutely is not a better pure scorer than Bird or Carmello. At least not yet. I put him a little more in the "Shaq" category of things, as he is just too dominant physically for people to stop him, but when he is asked to break defenders down with a series of moves or a difficult jumpshot, I don't think he could consistently do that as well as other forwards.

this.

lebron is almost as much a facilitator as a scorer.

he's unselfish, one of the reasons he'll be the GOAT in my eyes at the end of his career. he doesn't have that 100% me-first attitude of kobe or even MJ.

[JMarkJohns]

And Isiah is probably the worst example to prove your point. Dude averaged 75% at the line, which is shitty for a point guard. And his best scoring average? He was attempting 19 FGA to average 20 points a game. That's horrible.:lol

Not exactly truth. His FG% was 4-5% higher than Arenas, who benefitted from more open lanes to get to the line more.

[rayjayjohnson]

Lebron doesn't have a single 60 pt game..so no.... stop being enamored with his girth

yet another example of why koolaid is an idiot

[StrengthAndHonor]

Not exactly truth. His FG% was 4-5% higher than Arenas, who benefitted from more open lanes to get to the line more.

Sorry dude. Scoring wise, Arenas shits on Thomas including efficiency (TS% and PER). Now if were talking about the overall ball player? Then yeah its Zeke but save that for another thread.

[lebomb]

Goddamn this is one of the worst "my point is right" arguments I have ever seen.

You do realize you can't prove your side either?
That I was actually arguing that the 1980s had tougher defenses?
That I was making a specific argument against a specific player?
That rec league is not tantamount to NBA?



WTF???? Im saying there is no way in hell to prove a scorer from era is better than a scorer from another. Where am I wrong.....please let me know. If you can.

[StrengthAndHonor]

WTF???? Im saying there is no way in hell to prove a scorer from era is better than a scorer from another. Where am I wrong.....please let me know. If you can.

Truth tbqh.

[resistanze]

G - Michael Jordan
G - Kobe Bryant
F - Carmello Anthony
F - Larry Bird
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Same list except I'd exchange Melo for LeBron. Although not having as complete as an array of moves as Melo/Durant, he can score efficiently and consistently whenever he has to and no player has the power and speed to defend him. When needed, he's been a 30+PPG scorer for multiple seasons. And this year he's averaging a career low in FGA and still is stulling up 26PPG/8/7 in 55% FG and 40% 3PT.

For me, LeBron being unstoppable in what he does offensively puts him there, but I see the argument both ways.

[ambchang]

Players who have excellent scoring fundamentals will score in almost anything the defense throws at them. They may experience a dip in percentage but they will find a way to score. A player with a scoring mentality and is equipped with a great shooting touch will score plenty in any era.

See scoring averages of TMac, AI, Kobe and Carter before and after the rule changes, and they have sustained it until they aged. Check it and tell us how rules do not affect scorers much.

[ambchang]

Ok..........prove it then. :rolleyes You cant!!!! I just go by what they did when they played over their ENTIRE career. Gervin was basically unstoppable as were the others I mentioned during their era. This will always be a tough debate, so I just go with the numbers. Thats why there is a never ending debate over the Dream Team vs 2012's team. Who the hellz knowz. :toast


To validate my point............ I played city league (over 30) a group of old white men.....all in their late 40's and 50's won the league going away. Against teams of younger men that were dunking, cross overs, played college, you name it. So NONE of that this era vs that era shit means nothing. Noone knows what someones scoring average would have been in a different time period. Go with how they played and scored WHEN they played and scored.

Just a tip, siding with S&H is almost always wrong, you agreed with him, so you are likely to be wrong.

[ambchang]

Sorry dude. Scoring wise, Arenas shits on Thomas including efficiency (TS% and PER). Now if were talking about the overall ball player? Then yeah its Zeke but save that for another thread.

PER is not a pure scoring statistic, nor does it reflect on efficiency.

Have you gotten any thing right in your 288 posts?

[Killakobe81]

I don't think Isiah belongs on the 1st team. Id put Mitch Richmond on anyones list before Isiah. And Melo's ability to score is vastly overrated. Gilbert Arenas deserves some mention too.

he was on my 2nd not first and though I think AI was a greater scorer who knows what Isiah could of done with AI's FGA attempts kid could score and his handles were even better than Iverson's tbh ...just not as Flashy or "Sweet" looking ...

[Ashy Larry]

I think that 'Nique is probably one of the most overlooked stars out there. He really only did one thing right and that was score and dude was great at it. Should have been on the greatest 50 of all time. Can't have Shaquille on that list after four or five years. That's crazy.

[ffadicted]

How are ppl justifying Melo over Durant tbh

[Koolaid_Man]

Robinson is the only center not named Wilt to ever score >70, should he be on the 2nd team then?

hey Sherlock :lol at no point in time was Robinson the "face of the league" or considered a top 10 player by the media and "expected" to be the greatest ever...if you have all that riding on your shoulders...you fucking better have at least 1 if not multiple 60 point games...

fact is unless he proves it I'm inclined to believe he can't do it...when Kobe outscored the Mavs by himself 62 to 61 he was very efficient and similarly when he scored 81 I doubt Lebron can score like that period...he may be bigger and stronger than Kobe but he's not the scorer that Kobe is..end of story don't make me prove it with the scoring numbers

[Rob Gronkowski]

Don't know if he's been mentioned, i doubt it, but Cedric Ceballos' scoring ability is really underrated. Not saying he belongs on these lists, but his per minute scoring is pretty comparable to most of these guys.

[ambchang]

hey Sherlock :lol at no point in time was Robinson the "face of the league" or considered a top 10 player by the media and "expected" to be the greatest ever...if you have all that riding on your shoulders...you fucking better have at least 1 if not multiple 60 point games...

fact is unless he proves it I'm inclined to believe he can't do it...when Kobe outscored the Mavs by himself 62 to 61 he was very efficient and similarly when he scored 81 I doubt Lebron can score like that period...he may be bigger and stronger than Kobe but he's not the scorer that Kobe is..end of story don't make me prove it with the scoring numbers

Robinson was widely considered as one of the top two players in the league from 94 and 95. Face of the league means what exactly? Marketed the most? How is that relevant? Duncan was never that either. Kareem neither because the league sucked so bad back in the days that there was no face. Neither was Hakeem.

What if Lebron couldn't score 60? Neither could russell, magic, Hakeem, or I think KAJ. What's your point?

[Koolaid_Man]

Robinson was widely considered as one of the top two players in the league from 94 and 95. Face of the league means what exactly? Marketed the most? How is that relevant? Duncan was never that either. Kareem neither because the league sucked so bad back in the days that there was no face. Neither was Hakeem.

What if Lebron couldn't score 60? Neither could russell, magic, Hakeem, or I think KAJ. What's your point?

^ :lol hey numnuts....:lol it means he shouldn't be in the top tier prolific scorers list. and your examples are piss poor...comparing mostly big men who receive the entry pass to a combo guard / forward who usually creates his own shot. If Lebron (not magic, kareem, russell, etc) if Lebron is going to be compared to MJ and hyped to be better than Kobe then that nigga better get him a 60 point game...:lol he better get him a 59 point game :lol

Give me Reggie Miller over Lebron

[StrengthAndHonor]

Just a tip, siding with S&H is almost always wrong, you agreed with him, so you are likely to be wrong.

Tbh your basketball takes are just horribl, the sad part is you're serious.:lol

[Leetonidas]

lebomb with the bads

[Latarian Milton]

having 5 elite scorers in your lineup doesn't guarantee you good scoring outputs imho. you need a good passer to dish out assists for your scorers. if it's a simple accumulation of players' stats then how could you deny shaq a spot?

[ambchang]

^ :lol hey numnuts....:lol it means he shouldn't be in the top tier prolific scorers list. and your examples are piss poor...comparing mostly big men who receive the entry pass to a combo guard / forward who usually creates his own shot. If Lebron (not magic, kareem, russell, etc) if Lebron is going to be compared to MJ and hyped to be better than Kobe then that nigga better get him a 60 point game...:lol he better get him a 59 point game :lol

Give me Reggie Miller over Lebron
Kareem and Hakeem didn't create their own shot? You are dumber by the minute. You hit your head in the morning and again at noon or something?

And why 60? What's wrong with 50. Where did that a cutoff came from?

[ambchang]

Tbh your basketball takes are just horribl, the sad part is you're serious.:lol

Because ...

[Arcadian]

Wilt should be on the first team, Kareem on the second. It's interesting to compare them because they had very different approaches. Wilt had so many moves, you never knew what to expect from him, but he always scored when he wanted to. Kareem, by contrast, was utterly predictable - almost all of his points came from the sky hook - but even if you knew what was coming, you still couldn't stop it.

...except Wilt, who blocked the sky hook more than anyone else.

[timvp]

1st team

G - Michael Jordan
G - George Gervin
F - Dominique Wilkins
F - Elgin Baylor
C - Bob Pettit

2nd team

G - Kobe Bryant
G - Jerry West
F - Adrian Dantley
F - Kevin Durant
C - Shaquille O'Neal

3rd team

G - David Thompson
G - Allen Iverson
F - Carmelo Anthony
F - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar




That's off the top of my head so I might have forgotten someone obvious. One comment: George Gervin has to be first team. The only scorer who could compare in NBA history is Jordan. It helped that Gervin didn't play any defense ... but, really, he was a scoring machine.

[stretch]

Wilt should be on the first team, Kareem on the second. It's interesting to compare them because they had very different approaches. Wilt had so many moves, you never knew what to expect from him, but he always scored when he wanted to. Kareem, by contrast, was utterly predictable - almost all of his points came from the sky hook - but even if you knew what was coming, you still couldn't stop it.

...except Wilt, who blocked the sky hook more than anyone else.

:rolleyes Revisionist history.

Wilt basically had one go-to move, an 8 foot turnaround bank shot. Everything else he got because he was simply so much taller and more athletic than everyone else. And pretty much anyone could hit that turnaround banker if you are 6+ inches taller than everyone defending you. He didn't have nearly as many moves as Hakeem. And go back and watch how pathetic the defense was back then. Very little physical contact, almost no attempt to contest anything, no one boxed out for rebounds, and everyone was skinnier than toothpicks.

Great player, but he was simply ahead of his time. No way in hell does he get those insane numbers playing against the athletes of today.

[rogcl1]

:rolleyes Revisionist history.

Wilt basically had one go-to move, an 8 foot turnaround bank shot. Everything else he got because he was simply so much taller and more athletic than everyone else. And pretty much anyone could hit that turnaround banker if you are 6+ inches taller than everyone defending you. He didn't have nearly as many moves as Hakeem. And go back and watch how pathetic the defense was back then. Very little physical contact, almost no attempt to contest anything, no one boxed out for rebounds, and everyone was skinnier than toothpicks.

Great player, but he was simply ahead of his time. No way in hell does he get those insane numbers playing against the athletes of today.

Does Wilt's finger roll which he pioneered not count? Against today's watered down weak pool of NBA centers I think Wilt would feast. No way to know for sure though. There were very few teams then and some solid big men. Russel, Bellamy, Thurmond , Beatty to name a few. His freakish athletic ability edge would be even more pronounced against most of the clogs that pose as NBA centers today.

[rogcl1]

1st team

G - Michael Jordan
G - George Gervin
F - Dominique Wilkins
F - Elgin Baylor
C - Bob Pettit

2nd team

G - Kobe Bryant
G - Jerry West
F - Adrian Dantley
F - Kevin Durant
C - Shaquille O'Neal

3rd team

G - David Thompson
G - Allen Iverson
F - Carmelo Anthony
F - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar




That's off the top of my head so I might have forgotten someone obvious. One comment: George Gervin has to be first team. The only scorer who could compare in NBA history is Jordan. It helped that Gervin didn't play any defense ... but, really, he was a scoring machine.

Dantley, Thompson, and Baylor appear to be new names that you have thrown ouy there that certainly are worthy of consideration. All great scoers. As for Pettit , many posters probably don't even know who he is but he was certainly a very sklilled big man. Brings back memories of picking up the St. Louis radio station here at night and catching their games. Absolutely agree with Gervin . I had the opportunity to watch a majority of his games here and as a scorer he was in a class by himself. I do not see Wilt being left off totally because he could certainly score, perhaps in a different way then others but still he was a scorer. Glad to see posts that show a knowledge of and respect for the history of the game. Bob Pettit! Cool.

[Arcadian]

Revisionist history.



Wilt basically had one go-to move, an 8 foot turnaround bank shot. Everything else he got because he was simply so much taller and more athletic than everyone else. And pretty much anyone could hit that turnaround banker if you are 6+ inches taller than everyone defending you. He didn't have nearly as many moves as Hakeem. And go back and watch how pathetic the defense was back then. Very little physical contact, almost no attempt to contest anything, no one boxed out for rebounds, and everyone was skinnier than toothpicks.



Great player, but he was simply ahead of his time. No way in hell does he get those insane numbers playing against the athletes of today.



Not as many as Hakeem, but he still had a lot of moves. I believe he would dominate in any era, but no one can be certain. It's all speculation. I view Wilt as combining the finesse of Hakeem with the power of Shaq in one player. And considering he averaged 50 ppg in one season, he is the greatest offensive player in history.

[Medvedenko]

1st team

G - Michael Jordan
G - George Gervin
F - Dominique Wilkins
F - Elgin Baylor
C - Bob Pettit

2nd team

G - Kobe Bryant
G - Jerry West
F - Adrian Dantley
F - Kevin Durant
C - Shaquille O'Neal

3rd team

G - David Thompson
G - Allen Iverson
F - Carmelo Anthony
F - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar




That's off the top of my head so I might have forgotten someone obvious. One comment: George Gervin has to be first team. The only scorer who could compare in NBA history is Jordan. It helped that Gervin didn't play any defense ... but, really, he was a scoring machine.

Gervin ahead of Kobe is comical, while the Ice Man was a great scorer you can't put him ahead of Kobe however he should be on the second team even though I'd put Pistol Pete on there based on his college stats alone. Kobe had way better range and could score anywhere on the court.

[stretch]

Not as many as Hakeem, but he still had a lot of moves. I believe he would dominate in any era, but no one can be certain. It's all speculation. I view Wilt as combining the finesse of Hakeem with the power of Shaq in one player. And considering he averaged 50 ppg in one season, he is the greatest offensive player in history.

He had nowhere close to the power of Shaq, nor the finesse of Hakeem.

Like I said, revisionist history. Watch some tape. You will see he certainly is NOT the greatest offensive player in history. He had one offensive move. Basically everything else was transition buckets, putbacks, and receiving an entry pass deep in the post where he was too tall and long armed for anyone to guard without fouling.

[stretch]

Gervin ahead of Kobe is comical, while the Ice Man was a great scorer you can't put him ahead of Kobe however he should be on the second team even though I'd put Pistol Pete on there based on his college stats alone. Kobe had way better range and could score anywhere on the court.

Medvedenko, with the incredibly rare goods and truth bombs.

[Koolaid_Man]

1st team

G - Michael Jordan
G - George Gervin
F - Dominique Wilkins
F - Elgin Baylor
C - Bob Pettit

2nd team

G - Kobe Bryant
G - Jerry West
F - Adrian Dantley
F - Kevin Durant
C - Shaquille O'Neal

3rd team

G - David Thompson
G - Allen Iverson
F - Carmelo Anthony
F - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar




That's off the top of my head so I might have forgotten someone obvious. One comment: George Gervin has to be first team. The only scorer who could compare in NBA history is Jordan. It helped that Gervin didn't play any defense ... but, really, he was a scoring machine.

^ :lmao thank god you had the decency to spare us deep thoughts....but I'm the fool because I actually thought at one point you really knew basketball...just another simp perpetrating the fraud :lol

[lefty]

Alex English was unstoppable 1 on 1

[timvp]

Gervin ahead of Kobe is comical, while the Ice Man was a great scorer you can't put him ahead of Kobe however he should be on the second team even though I'd put Pistol Pete on there based on his college stats alone. Kobe had way better range and could score anywhere on the court.

1. Gervin led the NBA in scoring four times. Kobe only twice.
2. Gervin led the NBA in FGA only thrice. Kobe has led five times and is on pace to make that six this year.
3. Kobe has never shot 47% from the field in a season. Gervin never shot less than 47% from the field :lol
4. Kobe shot ~44% during his prime. Gervin shot 54% during his prime. Even factoring in three-pointers, Gervin still has a much higher TS%.
5. The NBA didn't have a three-point line when Gervin broke in so "range" didn't matter. But as far as diversity of shots, Gervin > Kobe.
6. Gervin averaged 12% more points per minute during his career. And that is only going to grow as Kobe slows down.
7. Gervin averaged 11% more points per minute during his career in the playoffs. And, again, that will only rise.

tl;dr: Unless missing shots is considered a scoring skill, Gervin > Kobe as a scorer

[Koolaid_Man]

Gervin ahead of Kobe is comical, while the Ice Man was a great scorer you can't put him ahead of Kobe however he should be on the second team even though I'd put Pistol Pete on there based on his college stats alone. Kobe had way better range and could score anywhere on the court.

all those shit stats that people throw at you concerning Gervin..just remember those bullshit stats are from the early to mid 70's against no competition....:lol and when Magic finally came to the league he shat all over the Spur capt. like real players are supposed to :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

G- Michael Jordan
G- George Gervin
F- Kevin Durant
F- Lebron James
C- Shaquille O'Neal

G- Kobe Bryant
G- Jerry West
F- Adrian Dantley
F- Dirk Nowitzki
C- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

G- Allen Iverson
G- David Thompson
F- Larry Bird
F- Charles Barkley
C- Wilt Chamberlain

I'd put Robinson and Malone if it was just regular season scoring, but their scoring success dipped during the playoffs..

Wilkins is one of the most overrated players I've ever researched, tbh..

Granted I have never watched some of these niggas from the 70s, but this is based on previous research, stats, opinions, etc..

[Arcadian]

He had nowhere close to the power of Shaq, nor the finesse of Hakeem.

Like I said, revisionist history. Watch some tape. You will see he certainly is NOT the greatest offensive player in history. He had one offensive move. Basically everything else was transition buckets, putbacks, and receiving an entry pass deep in the post where he was too tall and long armed for anyone to guard without fouling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4WZXiaDzyc&list=LL0gUaU3eJqjiOPyGYiKIIlw

People who saw him play back in the 60s disagree with you. They say he was stronger than Shaq and a better scorer than any subsequent player.

As far as athleticism - he was a track star. So he was more athletic than most basketball players from any time period.

[stretch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4WZXiaDzyc&list=LL0gUaU3eJqjiOPyGYiKIIlw

People who saw him play back in the 60s disagree with you. They say he was stronger than Shaq and a better scorer than any subsequent player.

Already seen this video. ONE MOVE. And he was almost always doing it against people 6+ inches shorter than him.


As far as athleticism - he was a track star. So he was more athletic than most basketball players from any time period.

Neat. Doesn't change the fact he didn't show a great arsenal of scoring ability, other than his one move, and a bunch of junk/transition buckets.

[Arcadian]

Already seen this video. ONE MOVE. And he was almost always doing it against people 6+ inches shorter than him.

First of all, the "number of moves" is irrelevant because we all agree that Kareem was a great scorer, and he only had one move. If you have one move that is utterly unstoppable, then it doesn't matter, does it? (But, in fact, he had more than one move.)

The funny thing about your argument is that you're vehemently opposed to even considering Wilt in this conversation. You can disagree about him being the best, but you should at least admit that he deserves consideration. Frankly, I don't feel like I need to defend him. His performance spoke for itself. The fact is, Wilt was the best offensive player of his era, and it wasn't even close. The distance between him and his competition was larger than anything the NBA has seen subsequently. Whether he would be as dominant in other eras will forever remain unknown, but it is entirely plausible. And I say yes, he would.

[stretch]

First of all, the "number of moves" is irrelevant because we all agree that Kareem was a great scorer, and he only had one move. If you have one move that is utterly unstoppable, then it doesn't matter, does it? (But, in fact, he had more than one move.)

It should be an unstoppable move when everyone is half your size. Point is, he won't be averaging his ridiculous totals against legitimate athletes.


The funny thing about your argument is that you're vehemently opposed to even considering Wilt in this conversation. You can disagree about him being the best, but you should at least admit that he deserves consideration. Frankly, I don't feel like I need to defend him. His performance spoke for itself. The fact is, Wilt was the best offensive player of his era, and it wasn't even close. The distance between him and his competition was larger than anything the NBA has seen subsequently. Whether he would be as dominant in other eras will forever remain unknown, but it is entirely plausible. And I say yes, he would.

I think he deserves consideration in certain scoring discussions, but not a discussion that is based on players who have a wide variety of ways in which they can score points, and do so exceedingly well.

Being fully confident that he could average 50 a game for a season in today's league is about as asinine as saying Shawn Bradley would put up the same numbers in the NBA that he would in a local rec league. The level of athletes you play against makes a HUUUUUUUUGE difference. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron. And anyone who says the level of athletes in the NBA from the 50s-70s is even remotely comparable to the level of athletes in the NBA over the past 10-20 years is a moron as well.

Wilt was simply ahead of his time. Nothing more to it. A fantastic basketball player, and I still think he would be an all-star level player in today's league, but he only dominated the way he did because he played in an incredibly weak era of the NBA. Older people who grew up watching him don't want to accept it, the same way people who grew up watching Michael Jordan doesn't want to accept that he was somewhat ahead of his time too. MJ is the greatest player ever, but the line between how good of a basketball player he was, and how good guys like Lebron, Wade, and Kobe are or have been over the past 6-7 years, isn't nearly as big as some people want to make it out to be. The level of athletes is even a noticeable difference between MJ's time, and today. And I'm sure in 15-20 years, people who grew up Lebron fans, will not want to accept that he is an athlete ahead of his time as well, because you can already see some truly incredible athletes coming into the NBA or collegiate level, that are not too far off the level of athletic ability that Lebron has, and in time, I'm sure someone new will come around that even exceeds him. As time passes, people constantly learn more tricks to become even better athletes, and to become even more skilled, versatile players. That is just how things are, and probably always will be.

[Arcadian]

Being fully confident that he could average 50 a game for a season in today's league is about as asinine as saying Shawn Bradley would put up the same numbers in the NBA that he would in a local rec league. The level of athletes you play against makes a HUUUUUUUUGE difference. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron. And anyone who says the level of athletes in the NBA from the 50s-70s is even remotely comparable to the level of athletes in the NBA over the past 10-20 years is a moron as well.

That is called the recency bias, the tendency to remember recent events more vividly than older ones, and to assume that reflects the quality of the events. How do you know the average NBA player in 2013 is better than the average NBA player in 1962? You're very confident about that assumption, but there is no empirical evidence to support it. It's just an assumption. Sure, players in 2013 might be (on average) more athletic than players in 1962, but does that make them better? Not necessarily. It is commonly said that early NBA players were more fundamentally sound. They couldn't rely as much on athletic ability, so they had to actually learn some basketball skills. So an argument can actually be made that the standards were higher back then. Does that mean the competition was "better" or "worse"? I don't know, and neither do you - but to assume one way or the other is unwarranted.


Wilt was simply ahead of his time. Nothing more to it.

Ahead of his time? What exactly does that mean?

[timvp]

Wilkins is one of the most overrated players I've ever researched, tbh..

Overrated, yes, because he hated to pass and played little D. Plus, all he really cared about was scoring. But since this is all-time scorers, I think he has to be up there.

Wilkins was Kobe-esque in that he was missing the maybe-I-shouldn't-shoot-this gene. Averaged nearly 30 PPG in his peak and nearly 10 FTA. Thought score 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Oh, and slight homer on my part because he was such a ballhog that he was the ultimate one-man tank job. The Spurs probably don't have Duncan if it wasn't for Wilkins unknowingly causing that team to suck even more than they should. Consider he averaged 18.2 PPG as a 37-year-old on the Spurs but was so bad in every other aspect of the game that no team wanted to sign him. Averaging that much and being worthless is pretty damn difficult.

[ffadicted]

Confession Bear: I never took any of Wilt's accomplishments seriously because of when he played. He was ahead of his time when the game was so young and undiscovered.

[rayjayjohnson]

^ :lol hey numnuts....:lol it means he shouldn't be in the top tier prolific scorers list. and your examples are piss poor...comparing mostly big men who receive the entry pass to a combo guard / forward who usually creates his own shot. If Lebron (not magic, kareem, russell, etc) if Lebron is going to be compared to MJ and hyped to be better than Kobe then that nigga better get him a 60 point game...:lol he better get him a 59 point game :lol

Give me Reggie Miller over Lebron

dickhead

[ambchang]

Wilt played in an era where basketball is in its growth stage, sure the game wasn't as advanced as today's, but his accomplishments were still astounding.

I am always in the camp that a player should be evaluated in his era. Wilt dominated the league in the first 2/3 of the 60s, and was effective all the way until he retired in the early 70s.

People make it sounds like he was playing against James Naismith in his days, but in reality, he was playing against some fantastic competition. The year he averaged 50ppg, he was playing against Russell, Walt Bellamy, and Bob Petit. In the 68-69 season, he averaged 20/20 against the likes of Thurmond, Jerry Lucas, and Wes Unseld, and still managed to lead the league in rebounds in his final year against Jabbar, Unseld, Reed, Thurmond and Cowens.

People never criticized Jerry West for playing in the same era, they never criticize Shaq for people so much more physically imposing than his competition, they didn't dock Lebron for being so much more physically dominant than anyone he plays against, so why should they criticize Wilt for it?
Nobody penalized Jerry West for the way he played in the same era

[lebomb]

Yall mufawkas are stupid. You cant compare eras........it will never, ever be solvable. Wilt may have actually been 10x better than Shaq. We will never, ever, ever, ever..........repeat 1 gabillion fuckin times.......know. Dont yall stupid young ass mufawkus get it? You can only judge by when they actually played.

:rolleyes

[Medvedenko]

1. Gervin led the NBA in scoring four times. Kobe only twice.
2. Gervin led the NBA in FGA only thrice. Kobe has led five times and is on pace to make that six this year.
3. Kobe has never shot 47% from the field in a season. Gervin never shot less than 47% from the field :lol
4. Kobe shot ~44% during his prime. Gervin shot 54% during his prime. Even factoring in three-pointers, Gervin still has a much higher TS%.
5. The NBA didn't have a three-point line when Gervin broke in so "range" didn't matter. But as far as diversity of shots, Gervin > Kobe.
6. Gervin averaged 12% more points per minute during his career. And that is only going to grow as Kobe slows down.
7. Gervin averaged 11% more points per minute during his career in the playoffs. And, again, that will only rise.

tl;dr: Unless missing shots is considered a scoring skill, Gervin > Kobe as a scorer

Timmy, you're smarter than that brother. % of points per minute is a useless stat given I can start spewing off the amount of 40, 50, 60 and 80 point games Kobe's had over Gervin. We can both argue on each case. Nevertheless, I appreciate your breakdown.

[stretch]

People never criticized Jerry West for playing in the same era, they never criticize Shaq for people so much more physically imposing than his competition, they didn't dock Lebron for being so much more physically dominant than anyone he plays against, so why should they criticize Wilt for it?
Nobody penalized Jerry West for the way he played in the same era

1. No one put up numbers quite as outrageous as Wilt's either.

2. Shaq did what he did in current generations, consistently against higher levels of athletes, unlike Wilt. Lebron is doing the same as Shaq. If someone were to say Wilt would put up numbers comparable to Shaq in today's NBA, that is a legit argument. But averaging 50 ppg for a season? Even 40 ppg for a season? Hell no. And it's not just the level of athletes, but also the slower pace of the NBA, and the higher level of defense being played. Defense was incredibly poorly played up until around the 80s.

3. West didn't pound on people with incredible athletic ability, as opposed to incredible skills. And back to point #1, his stats were great, but not nearly as bizzare as Wilt's.


I don't think anyone is questioning that Wilt was a great player, or that he would be very effective in today's league. But people who think the would put up all these 20/20 seasons, or anything remotely close to 50 ppg for a season, are simply retarded.

[ambchang]

I guess saying that Wilt will average 50 in today's NBA is foolish, 40 would be quite a stretch, as I think only Jordan and Kobe averaged anything close to that in the modern era, but saying Wilt will be a 32/15 type of player is not as outrageous as it sounds (with today's medicine and training). But I have always read your take as Wilt will be some kind of scrub that will just be another average center for some reason, and not a superstar player like Shaq, or even Howard.

I doubt there are people who actually believe Wilt will average 50ppg a season, if he goes Rodman and ignore all other aspects of the game, he may be able to average 20 rebounds though, Rodman was close enough at one point with 18+ rpg for two seasons, Wilt could possibly go 10/20, or even 15/20 if he goes out of his way to do it, like he would go out of his way to lead the league in assist to prove that he is a good passer (while proving he doesn't care about winning and is a total stat padder).

[ambchang]

Timmy, you're smarter than that brother. % of points per minute is a useless stat given I can start spewing off the amount of 40, 50, 60 and 80 point games Kobe's had over Gervin. We can both argue on each case. Nevertheless, I appreciate your breakdown.

% of points per minute shows how effective you are as a scorer over an entire career, while number of 40.50,60 and 80 point games shows the maximum output of a player in a freak occurrence situation. Sleepy Floyd once scored like 29 points in a quarter, doesn't make him a great scorer, but if Floyd averaged more points per minute than Kobe, then hells yet, he would have been an insane scorer.

[Medvedenko]

% of points per minute shows how effective you are as a scorer over an entire career, while number of 40.50,60 and 80 point games shows the maximum output of a player in a freak occurrence situation. Sleepy Floyd once scored like 29 points in a quarter, doesn't make him a great scorer, but if Floyd averaged more points per minute than Kobe, then hells yet, he would have been an insane scorer.

While Gervin may not be the best example from a points per min standpoint given he was a starter and main threat on his team. There a lot of guys that have a per 36 or per 24 mins ratios that beat most major scorers, that's not the point. If you have a better per min, than why aren't you playing a lot of mins? It may come down to coaching, other variables etc, however doesn't deem you to be the best scorer, maybe a more efficient one though. My point was defining what a pure scorer is, and efficiency is up there, however; dropping a shit load of 40 point games, consequitive 50 point affairs and having the ability of scoring a lot of points namely in the 70's or 80's one would deem that to be a "pure" scorer. I like the sleep Floyd arguement and I've seen that game. He was awesome and scored as a PG better than most in his time.

[ambchang]

If those players have a high per min and played enough minutes that those nbera were not flukes then they are great scorers. There really isn't any other way to interpret it.

A player doesn't play due to various reasons, they may be horrible in other aspects. Cedric ceballos is one such player.

If efficiency is one such measure Kobe and Ai will never be on any scorers list. Which is stupid.

[dunkman]

Magic
MJ
'Nique
K. Malone
Shaq

Zeke
Kobe
Bird
Nowitzki
Kareem (saw him past his prime in the 80's)

The Glove
AI
LeBron
Duncan
Hakeem

[stretch]

I guess saying that Wilt will average 50 in today's NBA is foolish, 40 would be quite a stretch, as I think only Jordan and Kobe averaged anything close to that in the modern era, but saying Wilt will be a 32/15 type of player is not as outrageous as it sounds (with today's medicine and training). But I have always read your take as Wilt will be some kind of scrub that will just be another average center for some reason, and not a superstar player like Shaq, or even Howard.

I doubt there are people who actually believe Wilt will average 50ppg a season, if he goes Rodman and ignore all other aspects of the game, he may be able to average 20 rebounds though, Rodman was close enough at one point with 18+ rpg for two seasons, Wilt could possibly go 10/20, or even 15/20 if he goes out of his way to do it, like he would go out of his way to lead the league in assist to prove that he is a good passer (while proving he doesn't care about winning and is a total stat padder).

I think Wilt would certainly be a double-double player for his career even in today's league. My estimate would be in the general range of 24-28 PPG and 11-14 RPG during prime years. I most definitely don't believe he is a scrub or would be a scrub. I just think that when people say he is unquestionably the best center (and occasionally player) ever, its crap. He was putting up those insane numbers in a weak league and somehow only won 2 championships, and his second he wasn't even anywhere close to his prime and was on a ridiculously stacked team. He had entirely too many flaws to get those outright distinctions.

[stretch]

Magic
MJ
'Nique
K. Malone
Shaq

Zeke
Kobe
Bird
Nowitzki
Kareem (saw him past his prime in the 80's)

The Glove
AI
LeBron
Duncan
Hakeem

This list must be a joke, to have Shaq, Magic, and GP rated so highly.

[dunkman]

This list must be a joke, to have Shaq, Magic, and GP rated so highly.

Name a center that was more prolific scorer then Shaq since mid 80's. Shaq won 2 ppg titles and 3 total points titles, with 5-6 seasons of around 29 ppg, 28,500 total points.

Or name a more prolific true PG's then Magic, Zeke and Payton since mid 80's.

I can't comment about players like Wilt, Baylor, Robertson, Dr. J, Hondo, West, Pistol Pete, Barry, Gervin M. Malone Kareem in their prime, because I didn't saw them play.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Name a center that was more prolific scorer then Shaq since mid 80's. Shaq won 2 ppg titles and 3 total points titles, with 5-6 seasons of around 29 ppg, 28,500 total points.

Or name a more prolific true PG's then Magic, Zeke and Payton since mid 80's.

I can't comment about players like Wilt, Baylor, Robertson, Dr. J, Hondo, West, Pistol Pete, Barry, Gervin M. Malone Kareem in their prime, because I didn't saw them play.

Zeke should definitely not be in that list. He's a 75% FT shooter and he has some serious Kobe like efficiency issues. He took 19 FGA to score a measly 22 ppg on his best scoring season.

[stretch]

Name a center that was more prolific scorer then Shaq since mid 80's. Shaq won 2 ppg titles and 3 total points titles, with 5-6 seasons of around 29 ppg, 28,500 total points.

Or name a more prolific true PG's then Magic, Zeke and Payton since mid 80's.

I can't comment about players like Wilt, Baylor, Robertson, Dr. J, Hondo, West, Pistol Pete, Barry, Gervin M. Malone Kareem in their prime, because I didn't saw them play.

You apparently didn't read the initial post, which had nothing to do with being a prolific true PG, nor scoring totals.

It was a list of the most skilled scorers.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Tell me how my diploma taste

tastes like poverty