Random thoughts after third easy win vs. Mavs

[timvp]

-That game has to win the title for the most misleading final score of the season. With Rick Carlisle coaching like it was the Game 7 of the NBA Finals, the Mavs went on an 11-0 run in 49 seconds during the final minute. But, truthfully, that run was more annoying than anything. San Antonio’s lead was never really in jeopardy.

-Let’s not lose focus on how great of a win this was. No Tim Duncan. No Pop. Limited Manu Ginobili. Kawhi Leonard coming off an injury. Tony Parker misses a majority of the first quarter with a pair of lacerations near his eye. Two lacerations, no call. The Mavs have played great basketball as of late. The Mavs had extra motivation after the two beatdowns the Spurs put on 'em earlier in the season. There’s the natural rivalry. The Mavs had four full days off before this game (they hadn’t played since Sunday). The Spurs, on the other hand, haven’t had more than two days off since the first week of December. Despite all that, the Spurs came out and dominated. Very impressive.

-I was worried that DeJuan Blair was done due to the degeneration of his knees. He looked horrible for a few weeks. But recently, he has looked better. Tonight, he looked really good athletically. In the first half, he was finishing shots after multiple moves in mid-air -- something we haven’t seen in a long time. He threw down his first dunk of the season and was routinely beating his man up the court. Around the time Blair started playing horrid basketball, he also suffered an ankle injury and sat out only one game. Perhaps it’s not his knees that torpedoed his play -- perhaps it was that ankle injury. That’d be great news if that was the case because he can provide valuable depth on a cheap contract. Hopefully I was dead wrong about prematurely burying Blair.

-Gary Neal played a lot better tonight. He didn’t look a whole lot healthier; I thought the biggest difference was how aggressive he came off of screens. He’s been lazy about that recently and, because of that, he wasn’t getting many clean looks within the offense. But tonight, Neal was using picks well and that allowed him to play his normal role instead of relying on freelancing. When Parker was out early, Bud picked Neal to run PG … and Neal real did a marvelous job. Good call by Bud and credit to Neal for stepping up.

-Stephen Jackson … yeah … let’s move on.

-Is Tony Parker the most underappreciated player in the league right now? He might be. Even us Spurs fans don’t really talk about him much. But, damn, he has carried the Spurs to this seven-game winning streak. Manu Ginobili has mostly been sidelined. Tim Duncan has been in and out. Even Pop hasn’t been around for all of it. But Parker has been beastly night in and night out. His stats during the streak: 21.7 points and 9.7 assists on 54.9% shooting from the field in less than 34 minutes per night.

-Speaking of Parker, has a star point guard ever peaked pass the age of 30? I can’t think of anyone. That’s a testament to the amount of work he puts in and his willingness to listen to coaches and improve. Pop calls him the most coachable player he’s ever coached and Parker’s ability to get better and better -- even after all these years -- is evidence. You don’t have to like him but it’d be smart to appreciate the Hall of Fame point guard who is currently at the top of his game.

-Tiago Splitter has some of the stranger finishing tactics around the rim -- from no-look hooks to late-release layups and from flips from the hip to lateral Euro-step reverse layups -- but it’s so very effective when he’s got it going. When he hits hot stretches like this, his elite ability to roll to the basket and his elite finishing skills make him a monster. Going forward, the Spurs have no excuse not to include him in their offensive attack as much as possible.

-Kawhi Leonard is still finding his way as an NBA player but his presence always makes an impact. I’m not sure exactly why it is but whenever he’s on the court, the Spurs suddenly don’t play like a plodding team. He’s like the one-man infusion of youth. Just add Kawhi to make a seemingly tired and old unit look young again.

-Boris Diaw is a paradox hidden in a riddle locked away in a conundrum buried at the bottom of the French Sea (is that real, eh, let’s roll with it). One minute, he’s firing a three-pointer coming off of a screen after barely taking the time to turn to face the rim. The next minute, he passes up a three-pointer with no human within a country mile. And there’s really no rhyme or reason to it. Strange. It’s like Diaw is a temperamental artist who only sometimes feels like sharing his gift with others. Either that, or he enjoys messing with all of our minds.

-Hopefully Pop and Duncan return tomorrow for the Suns game. If they don’t, it might be time to locate the panic button. Not quite push it … but at least find where it’s situated.

[freetiago]

I still dont believe a team can win with parker as its best player and he has the resume to back this up
but you cant really expect much more out of him
averaging a 20/10 in his past 5 games mostly without duncan/leonard/ginobili
started hitting clutch 3s even
hes done a lot better at not going completely hero with a crossover dribble left pullup he use to do all the time
sitll dont think he gets much respect from refs considering westbricks are getting 10 fta a night

and diaw
has the skill of an all star forward but hes the most passive inconsistent player ive ever seen

[HI-FI]

I'm guilty of being a TP hater, probably because he has a tendency to go into Westbrick territory and maybe for other reasons. But he is the true definition of underrated. He's underrated because he'll never be in that top PG discussion of his era, yet the divide between TP and those behind him is massive. So while I think it's fair to point out the dumb shit he does, he's also capable of playing at elite levels and often does.

Agree on Kawhi, he's like a shot of youth or vitality whenever he shows up, both to the team and to the fans. I think it's because he's got so much untapped energy and talent, yet he's sticking to his role and not overdoing it.

[hater]

Lmao if parker was anything resembling westbrook, this site would have blown up long ago. Have you even seen some shots westbrook takes? PARKER is nothing like westbrook

[Das Texan]

Id be more worried if Duncan isnt back tomorrow.

If Pop misses the game so be it, dont need him getting all of the AT&T center ill. (though taking a ref or two down would be funny)

[racm]

Lmao if parker was anything resembling westbrook, this site would have blown up long ago. Have you even seen some shots westbrook takes? PARKER is nothing like westbrook

In transition TP does not pull up for a long 2 whenever possible, for starters.

[TrainOfThought5]

My love/hate relationship with Tony Parker = My love/hate relationship with Tony Romo

I have an undeniable belief that both players can lead a team to a championship.

With TP he either needs to continue his improvement from long range, and improve against lengthy defenders (Sefalosha), but if he did that he would be a TRUE MVP candidate and possibly the next PG to win a Finals MVP.

Tony Romo just needs a better team around him. But i believe in both players.

[racm]

My love/hate relationship with Tony Parker = My love/hate relationship with Tony Romo

I have an undeniable belief that both players can lead a team to a championship.

With TP he either needs to continue his improvement from long range, and improve against lengthy defenders (Sefalosha), but if he did that he would be a TRUE MVP candidate and possibly the next PG to win a Finals MVP.

Tony Romo just needs a better team around him. But i believe in both players.

You know who the last PG to win Finals MVP was, don't you?

[Bruno]

Great thoughts. Thanks :tu



-Hopefully Pop and Duncan return tomorrow for the Suns game. If they don’t, it might be time to locate the panic button. Not quite push it … but at least find where it’s situated.

I am too worried a little with Duncan's knees.

For Pop, you should read the E-N article about it:
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/01/25/gregg-popovich-may-remain-home-another-game/

I see no reason at all for being worried about Pop.

[timvp]

I still dont believe a team can win with parker as its best player

I don't believe that either. I think Parker needs someone playing at his same level in order for the Spurs to win a championship. Thankfully, Duncan has done that so far this season.

But, no, I don't believe Parker is good enough to be the dominant MVP of a championship MVP. But that's not much of a slight because there really aren't that many. Today in the NBA there is LeBron James, Kevin Durant and maybe Chris Paul (but probably not). And that's it.

[ElNono]

Blair play was unexpected and welcome... I don't expect him to do shit the rest of the season, so that was nice... I thought Manu did ok in his limited minutes.

Jack might not do crap offensively, but he's a guy that boards, plays hard on D and gives the team a certain identity. I mean, the alternative was Richard Jefferson out there, so yeah... no.

Kawhi is nice too... he's still learning the ropes, but he's not afraid to work hard and put his long hands out there and intercept passes and what not... we need that... we don't force a lot of turnovers... having a guy that gives you that is valuable.

Tiago is getting better and better, but looking at the Mavs frontcourt, at this stage of his development, you expect him to beast a bit. I still think he needs to be tougher and more assertive at times. And it's because I know he can be.

The rest of the guys also came in and did their thing... some better than others... you can tell chemistry is great. Guys like Patty truly look happy to be there supporting the team.

[timvp]

For Pop, you should read the E-N article about it:
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/01/25/gregg-popovich-may-remain-home-another-game/

I see no reason at all for being worried about Pop.

Good to see Pop is relatively fine :tu

Carlisle's quotes in that link also fit with the random thoughts . . .

[JRHernandez88]

I was proud of DB45 tonight :cry

Good win though without Pop and Timmy.

[objective]

Guys are missing Kawhi open underneath too much.

[mathbzh]

-Speaking of Parker, has a star point guard ever peaked pass the age of 30? I can’t think of anyone. That’s a testament to the amount of work he puts in and his willingness to listen to coaches and improve. Pop calls him the most coachable player he’s ever coached and Parker’s ability to get better and better -- even after all these years -- is evidence. You don’t have to like him but it’d be smart to appreciate the Hall of Fame point guard who is currently at the top of his game.

Nash

[mathbzh]

I'm guilty of being a TP hater, probably because he has a tendency to go into Westbrick territory and maybe for other reasons.
This is why he has the best career% of any PG?
Seriously, if Parker was going Westbrick he would average over 25 ppg

[capek]

-Kawhi Leonard is still finding his way as an NBA player but his presence always makes an impact. I’m not sure exactly why it is but whenever he’s on the court, the Spurs suddenly don’t play like a plodding team. He’s like the one-man infusion of youth. Just add Kawhi to make a seemingly tired and old unit look young again.


Definitely. Even though he's not a star yet, it's that kind of "can't quite pin it down but it's big" effect that is often the first sign of a star in the making. Your description is apropos, he's like the Spurs' viagra. I mean, I know I get a bonner every time I watch him play. I can't be the only one! Amiright?! :blah

[mathbzh]

I don't believe that either. I think Parker needs someone playing at his same level in order for the Spurs to win a championship. Thankfully, Duncan has done that so far this season.

But, no, I don't believe Parker is good enough to be the dominant MVP of a championship MVP. But that's not much of a slight because there really aren't that many. Today in the NBA there is LeBron James, Kevin Durant and maybe Chris Paul (but probably not). And that's it.

How could he win "alone" when Lebron needed Wade/Bosh?

[Spursfanfromafar]

Parker has consistently been the best player for the Spurs since the past 2-3 years and with only random blips in form mostly because of injuries. And he is unique in the manner he plays - a very good scorer with a high efficiency and who has learnt to be equally efficient as a passer; plus adding above average defense as a PG. Very few players in the league bring all these attributes together, not less PGs.

[TrainOfThought5]

You know who the last PG to win Finals MVP was, don't you?

I know that he was being guarded by Boobie Gibson, and helped by Prime Duncan+Prime Ginobili.

this aint '07. If Parker wins FMVP this year, it will be because he raised his game to another level, and carried this team to victory offensively, and vanquished whatever offensive weaknesses he has. he will have truly earned it.

sidenote: I think he can do it.

[Arc]

Jeff Van Gundy was right when he said teams that are down by 10+ should lose their timeouts late in the 4th (or something like that). Dick Carlisle was so annoying. End of game fouling is a blight on the game.

[spurs10]

Thanks for the thoughts, once again, Tony is indeed playing inspired basketball right now! It's a pleasure to witness. I'd seen Blair dunking the ball in warm-ups recently, so I'm glad to see he's making it real...:flag:

[TrainOfThought5]

Jeff Van Gundy was right when he said teams that are down by 10+ should lose their timeouts late in the 4th (or something like that). Dick Carlisle was so annoying. End of game fouling is a blight on the game.

Would have been a nice rule to have when TMac was puttin up 13 points in 8 seconds.

[lefty]

Lmao if parker was anything resembling westbrook, this site would have blown up long ago. Have you even seen some shots westbrook takes? PARKER is nothing like westbrook

In a perfect world :

TP's basketball IQ + Westbrook's athleticism + Jordan's unchoking

[timaios]

In a perfect world :

TP's basketball IQ + Westbrook's athleticism + Jordan's unchoking

That... or Jordan's basketball IQ + Jordan's athleticism + Jordan's unchoking. Too bad such a player can't be real !

[024]

if we are going to talk about the spurs' championship chances, i say they are very slim regardless of duncan's resurgence and parker's improvement. durant and westbrook look absolutely dialed in this season. nothing is going to stop them from reaching the finals again. but we can always hope for injuries and/or miracle trade.

[therealtruth]

I think Parker needs to be able to play 40+ minutes in the playoffs for us to have a chance. The backup PG position is in shambles and I don't really think you can trust any of those guys for much. I felt last season if he could have stayed on the floor longer against OKC we probably could have won.

[Danny.Zhu]

In transition TP does not pull up for a long 2 whenever possible, for starters.

[racm]

if we are going to talk about the spurs' championship chances, i say they are very slim regardless of duncan's resurgence and parker's improvement. durant and westbrook look absolutely dialed in this season. nothing is going to stop them from reaching the finals again. but we can always hope for injuries and/or miracle trade.

The thing about OKC is that while I do think their road to the Finals won't be that difficult, they're likely to be bounced out by Miami again when they do so. And in the playoffs, what happens when defenses cut off Westbrook's passing lanes and force Durant to try and carry the team? He can do that but everything should also go right for them (Westbrook proves that he's turned the corner on his decision-making, Martin doesn't make his playoff disappearing act, they face teams that don't make them pay for their turnover woes).

The bottom line is, only 1 team wins the :lobt: out of 30, and only 5 or 6 have a realistic shot every year. Better to be in that group than hoping that a Shabazz Muhammad or a Nerlens Noel turns around your franchise.


I think Parker needs to be able to play 40+ minutes in the playoffs for us to have a chance. The backup PG position is in shambles and I don't really think you can trust any of those guys for much. I felt last season if he could have stayed on the floor longer against OKC we probably could have won.

IMO the problem wasn't TP's performance so much as it was the supporting cast deteriorating under pressure. Thankfully Manu seems to be playing well on a per-minute basis and TD's back in All-Star form. And the teams of the past two seasons couldn't defend because of :pop: 's insistence on playing a spacing big with TD instead of realizing he had a great big man rotting on the bench, and because the wing situation was Manu/HWMNBN/some random guy on a 10 day contract.

[Strategic]

I woke up this morning from a day dream of seeing the good guys running off the court after thrashing dirk, jet, kidd and cuban. Felt soooooo good. Ah hell yeah, it still feels good!

[TMTTRIO]

you can't really count on Manu anymore though to play well anymore on a regular basis like he used to so it's going to have to be the Big 2 and some of the other players stepping up consistently in the playoffs. I'm not worried about the starters but it's once Tim and Tony sit down who's going to carry the team? Manu can't anymore and we really don't have a backup pg that can fill in for Tony.

[EVAY]

I don't believe that either. I think Parker needs someone playing at his same level in order for the Spurs to win a championship. Thankfully, Duncan has done that so far this season.

But, no, I don't believe Parker is good enough to be the dominant MVP of a championship MVP. But that's not much of a slight because there really aren't that many. Today in the NBA there is LeBron James, Kevin Durant and maybe Chris Paul (but probably not). And that's it.

This is where I consistently get pissed off about the evaluations of Parker vs. the other members of this team. LeBron James couldn't get a championship without Wade and Bosh. Kobe couldn't without Shaq. Durant couldn't. Yet. With anyone.

Chris Paul couldn't. yet.

You know who else couldn't? Tim Duncan!!

Parker deserved an A+ a couple of times this year when he didn't get it because you, Timvp, always seem to find something to complain about. I know he got one from you in the game before this one, but when he had a triple double, he couldn't even get one. Last night he gets three stitches in the eye that was hurt this summer, (which has to be scary for anyone), then returns to lead the team with points and assists without Tim and without Manu. If Tony hadn't been put back into the game in the waning moments, we would have lost this game.

TP is not a flashy player. He is not a naturally gifted passer, like Manu. His No.1 percentage shooting among all point guards in the entire league is a stat that has been earned by hard work and practice. He has worked his butt off for every year he has been here. He reminds me more of TD than anyone else in this regard...a lot of people think he is not as good as he really is because he has such a workmanlike approach to his game. People used to say that Tim was boring to watch...but his fundamentals were superior to almost anyone else. TP is not ever going to be accused of being the very best at his position to ever play the game, but this season his numbers are better than anyone in the history of the league exceptLarry Bird.

Lots of folks on this forum are so blinded by Tim's strengths that they seem singularly incapable of accepting that there is another superstar on the team whose contributions are as essential to the team as are Tim's. It is almost as though you somehow believe that you will be unfaithful to Timmy somehow by accepting just how important Tony is to this team in this era.

Tony will never be a league MVP unless Tim is gone and Pop lets TP play more minutes than he does. TP's stats would be much gaudier than they already are if he played the same number of minutes that lots of others do. That can't happen on a Pop team. That is a function of Pop, not the player.

[SpursRock20]

-Boris Diaw is a paradox hidden in a riddle locked away in a conundrum buried at the bottom of the French Sea (is that real, eh, let’s roll with it). One minute, he’s firing a three-pointer coming off of a screen after barely taking the time to turn to face the rim. The next minute, he passes up a three-pointer with no human within a country mile. And there’s really no rhyme or reason to it. Strange. It’s like Diaw is a temperamental artist who only sometimes feels like sharing his gift with others. Either that, or he enjoys messing with all of our minds.


Totally agree. He is one of the most interesting players I have ever seen. He's got this demeanor which looks like he just seems to know-it-all and seems to really get basketball. Sometimes he runs off of the bench in the beginning of the game with tremendous energy and looks especially spry. In other games, he looks like he'd rather be back in France doing whatever French guys do. I'm not sure what makes Diaw click, but whatever it is, I wish we could bottle it up and use it in the playoffs.

[SenorSpur]

-I was worried that DeJuan Blair was done due to the degeneration of his knees. He looked horrible for a few weeks. But recently, he has looked better. Tonight, he looked really good athletically. In the first half, he was finishing shots after multiple moves in mid-air -- something we haven’t seen in a long time. He threw down his first dunk of the season and was routinely beating his man up the court. Around the time Blair started playing horrid basketball, he also suffered an ankle injury and sat out only one game. Perhaps it’s not his knees that torpedoed his play -- perhaps it was that ankle injury. That’d be great news if that was the case because he can provide valuable depth on a cheap contract. Hopefully I was dead wrong about prematurely burying Blair.

You're not the only one. I also thought Blair was all but done for and that his production was on a permanent downward spiral. It was pleasantly surprising to see him have a monster game. I only wished he could rebound in the beastly fashion that he once did.



-Is Tony Parker the most underappreciated player in the league right now? He might be. Even us Spurs fans don’t really talk about him much. But, damn, he has carried the Spurs to this seven-game winning streak. Manu Ginobili has mostly been sidelined. Tim Duncan has been in and out. Even Pop hasn’t been around for all of it. But Parker has been beastly night in and night out. His stats during the streak: 21.7 points and 9.7 assists on 54.9% shooting from the field in less than 34 minutes per night.

Yes he is and there's no one even close. He's even underappreciated by many of the Spurs fandom. The fact remains that with Ginobili oft-injured and his skills and athleticism in decline, it has been Parker who has been carrying this team, with a lot of help from a resurging Duncan - and not just this year. Parker has just been downright scintillating. The most pleasing thing for me to see about him is the concerted effort he's made in becoming a better playmaker, as evidenced by the uptick in his assists - both this year and last. In doing so, he's becoming a more well-rounded PG. He continues to be the Spurs most important player. It's no coincidence that come playoff time, when teams have concentrated their defensive efforts into neutralizing Parker and keeping him out of the lane, the Spurs have fizzled. Parker is truly the engine for which the Spurs success is built around. And yes, there shouldn't be any questions that Parker is a virtual lock for the Basketball Hall of Fame



-Kawhi Leonard is still finding his way as an NBA player but his presence always makes an impact. I’m not sure exactly why it is but whenever he’s on the court, the Spurs suddenly don’t play like a plodding team. He’s like the one-man infusion of youth. Just add Kawhi to make a seemingly tired and old unit look young again.

Agree. The Spurs do appear to be at a different rhythm when Kawhi is on the court. Certainly the defensive intensity appears to be amped up. Leonard appears to be on a progression track that will propel him into a role as the Spurs next big-time player in a couple of years.



-Boris Diaw is a paradox hidden in a riddle locked away in a conundrum buried at the bottom of the French Sea (is that real, eh, let’s roll with it).

Priceless.

[timvp]

This is where I consistently get pissed off about the evaluations of Parker vs. the other members of this team. LeBron James couldn't get a championship without Wade and Bosh. Kobe couldn't without Shaq. Durant couldn't. Yet. With anyone.

Chris Paul couldn't. yet.

You know who else couldn't? Tim Duncan!!

Parker deserved an A+ a couple of times this year when he didn't get it because you, Timvp, always seem to find something to complain about. I know he got one from you in the game before this one, but when he had a triple double, he couldn't even get one. Last night he gets three stitches in the eye that was hurt this summer, (which has to be scary for anyone), then returns to lead the team with points and assists without Tim and without Manu. If Tony hadn't been put back into the game in the waning moments, we would have lost this game.

TP is not a flashy player. He is not a naturally gifted passer, like Manu. His No.1 percentage shooting among all point guards in the entire league is a stat that has been earned by hard work and practice. He has worked his butt off for every year he has been here. He reminds me more of TD than anyone else in this regard...a lot of people think he is not as good as he really is because he has such a workmanlike approach to his game. People used to say that Tim was boring to watch...but his fundamentals were superior to almost anyone else. TP is not ever going to be accused of being the very best at his position to ever play the game, but this season his numbers are better than anyone in the history of the league exceptLarry Bird.

Lots of folks on this forum are so blinded by Tim's strengths that they seem singularly incapable of accepting that there is another superstar on the team whose contributions are as essential to the team as are Tim's. It is almost as though you somehow believe that you will be unfaithful to Timmy somehow by accepting just how important Tony is to this team in this era.

Tony will never be a league MVP unless Tim is gone and Pop lets TP play more minutes than he does. TP's stats would be much gaudier than they already are if he played the same number of minutes that lots of others do. That can't happen on a Pop team. That is a function of Pop, not the player.

:lmao I think someone has me confused with ElNono, tbh.

I spent this whole thread slurping TP, said he's the most underappreciated player in the league and gave him credit for carrying the team during this tumultuous time. The only thing that could be considered negative I said was that he's not on the same level as LeBron James and Kevin Durant. And somehow that caused an epic meltdown.

Wow.

[EVAY]

:lmao I think someone has me confused with ElNono, tbh.

I spent this whole thread slurping TP, said he's the most underappreciated player in the league and gave him credit for carrying the team during this tumultuous time. The only thing that could be considered negative I said was that he's not on the same level as LeBron James and Kevin Durant. And somehow that caused an epic meltdown.

Wow.

I disagree with most of your statements in this quote. You did indeed ask about him being an under-appreciated player, and then, imo, proceed to under- appreciate him some more. If you actually gave him credit for carrying the team (as you suggest), why didn't you give him an A+?

This is not a meltdown.

This is a disagreement.

I explained to you why I thought what I thought. You don't have to agree, and obviously you don't. But it is impossible for me not to notice that whenever you are challenged about the way in which you comment about Tony, you seem unaware of what you consistently do regarding him. I honestly believe what I said. I don't expect you to change. I rarely express my opinions about your comments about Tony. I believe that you have been much better at recognizing his contributions in the last season and this season than you were before, but you always seem to have a 'but he's not really that great' comment in there somewhere.

Part of what I find so difficult to accept is that you say that you grade players based on their potential or their ability, but then when you recognize that Tony's natural ability is not as great as some others', you always grade him as though he had the natural talent or athleticism of a Chris Paul or Manu Ginobili. I would respectfully ask you to think about that when you discuss his contributions to a game and to the team.

[romain.star]

I disagree with most of your statements in this quote. You did indeed ask about him being an under-appreciated player, and then, imo, proceed to under- appreciate him some more. If you actually gave him credit for carrying the team (as you suggest), why didn't you give him an A+?

This is not a meltdown.

This is a disagreement.

I explained to you why I thought what I thought. You don't have to agree, and obviously you don't. But it is impossible for me not to notice that whenever you are challenged about the way in which you comment about Tony, you seem unaware of what you consistently do regarding him. I honestly believe what I said. I don't expect you to change. I rarely express my opinions about your comments about Tony. I believe that you have been much better at recognizing his contributions in the last season and this season than you were before, but you always seem to have a 'but he's not really that great' comment in there somewhere.

Part of what I find so difficult to accept is that you say that you grade players based on their potential or their ability, but then when you recognize that Tony's natural ability is not as great as some others', you always grade him as though he had the natural talent or athleticism of a Chris Paul or Manu Ginobili. I would respectfully ask you to think about that when you discuss his contributions to a game and to the team.

you seem to be spliting hairs here.

As long as I can remember, TIMVP is very fair to Parker and has always tried to rebalance things when Parker was/is underestimated by other Spurstalkers

[EVAY]

you seem to be spliting hairs here.

As long as I can remember, TIMVP is very fair to Parker and has always tried to rebalance things when Parker was/is underestimated by other Spurstalkers

I am not saying that Timvp never says positive things about Tony. But have you ever seen Timvp talk about his positive assessments of Tim as 'slurping'?

My point is that there is an inconsistency, imo. I have always stated it as my opinion. I have never engaged in an ad hominem attack on Timvp.

It may seem to you that I am splitting hairs.

I disagree. That's all.

[timvp]

I disagree with most of your statements in this quote.Spell out what you are disagreeing with. You're just speaking in generalities and hypotheticals. Do you disagree that Parker isn't on the same level as LeBron and Durant? Do you think the players capable of carrying their team to a championship are LeBron, Durant and Parker? If that's what you're disagreeing with, then let me know. As of now, I'm confused where your beef is.

I'd disagree that Parker is on the same level as LeBron and Durant. If that's where we disagree, then that's fine. But you're telling me you disagree but aren't telling me why/where/how.


You did indeed ask about him being an under-appreciated player, and then, imo, proceed to under- appreciate him some more. If you actually gave him credit for carrying the team (as you suggest), why didn't you give him an A+? I'm talking about this thread and this season as a whole. If you have a problem with A instead of A+, put it in that other thread. It doesn't make sense to complain about a singular grade in a separate thread that isn't discussing that grade.


I explained to you why I thought what I thought. You don't have to agree, and obviously you don't. But it is impossible for me not to notice that whenever you are challenged about the way in which you comment about Tony, you seem unaware of what you consistently do regarding him. I honestly believe what I said. I don't expect you to change.What do I "consistently do regarding him"? I need something concrete to argue against.

If it's that I "always find something to complain about" ... well, yeah, that's what the Grades and Game Thoughts are about. I try to point out the positives and negatives about every player. No player ever plays a perfect game; basketball is a game of mistakes.


I rarely express my opinions about your comments about Tony. I believe that you have been much better at recognizing his contributions in the last season and this season than you were before, but you always seem to have a 'but he's not really that great' comment in there somewhere.Where is that comment in this thread? Again, my only non-positive comment is that Parker isn't on the same level as LeBron and Durant. Do you perceive that as a "but he's not really that great comment"?


Part of what I find so difficult to accept is that you say that you grade players based on their potential or their ability, but then when you recognize that Tony's natural ability is not as great as some others', you always grade him as though he had the natural talent or athleticism of a Chris Paul or Manu Ginobili. I would respectfully ask you to think about that when you discuss his contributions to a game and to the team.With all due respect, I have made it clear that I grade based on expectations. I've never claimed to grade on "natural ability" or "natural talent". Parker is a top two point guard in the NBA. He's been playing the best basketball of his career for a season and a half now. He's the most underappreciated dominant player in the NBA. That's why he can put up a triple double and still not get an A+. That's why he can come back from a double laceration, be the best player on the court by a wide, wide margin and still not quite be graded as being at the absolute top of his game.

Parker isn't like a DeJuan Blair charity case where if he makes a few layups and runs the court it's a shocking revelation and blows away his tepid expectations. Parker is DAMN good. Ironically, with more respect, perhaps it's you who doesn't realize quite how good Parker is. You make it seem like he's a talent-less runt just trying to get by. That's not the case. Parker is the fastest player in the NBA. Maybe the best finisher in the NBA. He's taught himself how to become an elite passer. His defense is better than ever. His shooting is better than ever. He's a great, talented, dominant player. There's no need to baby him ... he's a full-fledged beast at this point in his career.

[cd021]

Lmao if parker was anything resembling westbrook, this site would have blown up long ago. Have you even seen some shots westbrook takes? PARKER is nothing like westbrook

Westbrick is shooting nearly 40% FG, in the post season thats gonna hurt them with fewer possessions.

[romain.star]

I am not saying that Timvp never says positive things about Tony. But have you ever seen Timvp talk about his positive assessments of Tim as 'slurping'?

My point is that there is an inconsistency, imo. I have always stated it as my opinion. I have never engaged in an ad hominem attack on Timvp.

It may seem to you that I am splitting hairs.

I disagree. That's all.

Maybe that's my poor english but i don't understand what you're disagreeing on...

[maverick1948]

I am not saying that Timvp never says positive things about Tony. But have you ever seen Timvp talk about his positive assessments of Tim as 'slurping'?

My point is that there is an inconsistency, imo. I have always stated it as my opinion. I have never engaged in an ad hominem attack on Timvp.

It may seem to you that I am splitting hairs.

I disagree. That's all.

Define what an A+ performance would be. Playing well above an "above average" game. If TP gets 23 pts 9 asst and 4 boards, he has exceeded his averages in all 3 cats. But nothing out of the ordinary. But if he gets 30 pts, 12 asst and 6 boards then that would be an A+ game. IMO Each night I look for TP to get 17-23 points and 6 to 9 asst and 3 boards. These are average night, he does them almost every night so nothing out of the ordinary. Timvp does a really good job of grading the team. Dont alway agree with everyone but he may see things different than I on some things.

On thing I disagree with Timvp's original post is about Timmy playing tonight against Phoenix. Had we lost one of the two games to the "Pels" or Mavs, I would be looking for Timmy to play tonight. But we have a highly favorable schedule from now till the rodeo road trip to rest the players. 1/26 Phoenix at home 2nd worst record in West, 1/30 Charlotte at home worst record in the league and 2/2 Washington at home with 2nd worst record in league. Then the road trip starts on 2/6. I think that comes out to 3 games in 11 days. We wont get this much of a break again this season. If Timmy doesn't play tonight, I don't see us worrying about his knees. I think a few extra days rest would do him a lot more good than coming back tonight and getting a double double against the Suns. A win against the Suns without Timmy would be good.

:toast

[Old School 44]

When I see games like this, I always think of how the mighty have fallen, the Mavs, the Lakers, the Suns, the Jazz...all at one time elite/perennial playoff teams. Now on the West dance card, the Thunder and the Clips. The Spurs continue to roll through different eras with the "old" core mixed with different role players. I think it was JVG who pointed out the best three winning percentages of players in the NBA....Manu, Tony and Tim.

[Cry Havoc]

Just a thought, but if we're riding a 7 game winning streak and we're really not all that worried about playoff seeding, doesn't it make sense to rest Duncan as much as possible? Dude doesn't need to be on the court if he's sore at all and we're dominating.

That said, Tim, get healthy. Pronto.

[roycrikside]

I know he only played 8 mins and didn't do much but I thought Manu was moving around better/quicker in this game than the Hornets one.

[EVAY]

Spell out what you are disagreeing with. You're just speaking in generalities and hypotheticals. Do you disagree that Parker isn't on the same level as LeBron and Durant? Do you think the players capable of carrying their team to a championship are LeBron, Durant and Parker? If that's what you're disagreeing with, then let me know. As of now, I'm confused where your beef is.

I'd disagree that Parker is on the same level as LeBron and Durant. If that's where we disagree, then that's fine. But you're telling me you disagree but aren't telling me why/where/how.

I'm talking about this thread and this season as a whole. If you have a problem with A instead of A+, put it in that other thread. It doesn't make sense to complain about a singular grade in a separate thread that isn't discussing that grade.

What do I "consistently do regarding him"? I need something concrete to argue against.

If it's that I "always find something to complain about" ... well, yeah, that's what the Grades and Game Thoughts are about. I try to point out the positives and negatives about every player. No player ever plays a perfect game; basketball is a game of mistakes.

Where is that comment in this thread? Again, my only non-positive comment is that Parker isn't on the same level as LeBron and Durant. Do you perceive that as a "but he's not really that great comment"?

With all due respect, I have made it clear that I grade based on expectations. I've never claimed to grade on "natural ability" or "natural talent". Parker is a top two point guard in the NBA. He's been playing the best basketball of his career for a season and a half now. He's the most underappreciated dominant player in the NBA. That's why he can put up a triple double and still not get an A+. That's why he can come back from a double laceration, be the best player on the court by a wide, wide margin and still not quite be graded as being at the absolute top of his game.

Parker isn't like a DeJuan Blair charity case where if he makes a few layups and runs the court it's a shocking revelation and blows away his tepid expectations. Parker is DAMN good. Ironically, with more respect, perhaps it's you who doesn't realize quite how good Parker is. You make it seem like he's a talent-less runt just trying to get by. That's not the case. Parker is the fastest player in the NBA. Maybe the best finisher in the NBA. He's taught himself how to become an elite passer. His defense is better than ever. His shooting is better than ever. He's a great, talented, dominant player. There's no need to baby him ... he's a full-fledged beast at this point in his career.

I think that you and I do disagree on his ability and how you evaluate his use of his abilities.

I am having trouble satisfying your request that I simultaneously give specifics rather than generalities and at the same time, not discuss something as specific as grades if grades are discussed in another thread. You tend to evaluate with words and letters and numbers in both game thoughts and grades.

I have said for some time now that I do not consider Tony to have the same level of natural skill or ability as some of the other members of the spurs, much less of the league. It would seem to me that one's natural ability and skill set have something to do with what you 'expect' from that individual. So in that respect, it may well be that you and differ on how talented he is. Thing is, that doesn't really ring true to me.

Let's take the issue of expectations. This is the first time I have heard you express the opinion that Tony is among the top two point guards. As recently as last season, you indicated (I can't quote chapter and verse, but since I spent a lot of my career interviewing people, I do tend to remember what they say) that you weren't sure that Tony was among the top 5 pgs in the league, but that he was certainly among the top ten. As recently as earlier this season, you indicated that he
'has a terrible looking shot' when he uses that floater. That, to me, would indicate that he is stretching his natural abilities to their breaking point in that he accomplishes something that is not a natural thing for him. From that, I would assume that your expectations for an individual who is going beyond his natural abilities would be lower than for some other players, and that the accomplishment of having a high percentage of shots made (the highest in the league) in a challenging physical situation would rate an extremely high grade, consistently.

Secondly, with respect your stated point of evaluating based on expectations: if a player accomplishes something for the first time in his 11 year career (like a triple double), I don't understand how you can NOT assess that as having exceeded expectations for that player. Do you see what I mean?


I do not, in fact, believe that Tony is overly gifted naturally and that may be where some of our differences exist. He is quick, but not nearly as quick as he was when he came in the league. He has lost at least a step or step-and-a-half in the last three years. He is not the fastest in the league; he is not the best passer on this team, much less in the league; he does not have superior court vision for a point guard; he is not a particularly gifted defensive player.

Having said all of the above, I agree completely that Tony is playing the best basketball of his career. That is because he has worked, worked and worked at knowing the offense, learning the plays that Pop wants when Pop wants them, utilizing the skills of the other players on the team, and putting himself in harm's way repeatedly by driving the lane and running around and around while other players are content to stand in position and watch him. He has developed the floater and the three-point shot and the mid-range jumper in the last three seasons. He has improved his passing ability. He didn't come with those skills. He had to learn them. And he did.

So some of the inconsistency I see in your comments is that you have varied (again, imo) fairly widely in your assessment of Tony's abilities, but when it comes to evaluating him, you hold him to a higher standard than your other comments indicate he should be held.

My view is that he is a young man who has worked to develop his skill set well beyond his natural ability level. That he has done so and that he displays the strength, the courage, the leadership and the skill set he does is why he is, to me, the MVP of this team. And that when he goes beyond even the level of 'most nights' this season (either by a triple-double or a double-double after getting stitches in his eyelid), he deserves the best we as fans have to offer in our evaluations of him.

I don't know why you refer to 'slurping' in your discussion of your evaluation. That is exactly the kind of comment that sounds like you think you were giving him something he didn't deserve or hadn't earned. That is exactly the kind of comment that, to me, belies your protestations of having held him in such high regard.

I don't expect us to agree on this Timvp. I rarely comment on grades because grades are so subjective. I respect your position in having earned the right to distribute your grades, and I always read them, whether I agree or not. I just don't use your thoughts to determine my own assessments.

You and I both know that Tony has been subjected to some pretty negative press on this board. It seems to be a hobby of many of the posters. I get tired of it, but I don't always call people on it, because to do so just raises my blood pressure and is absolutely in the category of "things that won't change regardless so why waste your time". But I do respect your thoughts and that is why I am willing to try to occasionally challenge your self-perception that you are so much of benefactor to Tony in your grades and your discussions.

And, about El Nono....I mostly laugh at E-N because he has made dumping on Tony an identity issue for himself, and he is awfully good natured about it. Plus, I happen to agree with him that Manu is the best. Period. I would rather watch Ginobili play basketball than most anything. But that is it, you see, Ginobili is sooooo talented. I expect more from him. And he is flashy. Parker is not flashy. That is why I said earlier that Parker reminds me more of Tim than Manu. Because Manu gets us all on our feet because his play is a thing of wild beauty (except of course when the ball goes in the stands, but you know what I mean), whereas Tony and Tim give us win after win after win, with or without Manu. We are a far better team with Manu, but he is no longer the determinant of a win. Tony pretty much is that, without the raw talent and without the flash.

[EVAY]

Define what an A+ performance would be. Playing well above an "above average" game. If TP gets 23 pts 9 asst and 4 boards, he has exceeded his averages in all 3 cats. But nothing out of the ordinary. But if he gets 30 pts, 12 asst and 6 boards then that would be an A+ game. IMO Each night I look for TP to get 17-23 points and 6 to 9 asst and 3 boards. These are average night, he does them almost every night so nothing out of the ordinary. Timvp does a really good job of grading the team. Dont alway agree with everyone but he may see things different than I on some things.

On thing I disagree with Timvp's original post is about Timmy playing tonight against Phoenix. Had we lost one of the two games to the "Pels" or Mavs, I would be looking for Timmy to play tonight. But we have a highly favorable schedule from now till the rodeo road trip to rest the players. 1/26 Phoenix at home 2nd worst record in West, 1/30 Charlotte at home worst record in the league and 2/2 Washington at home with 2nd worst record in league. Then the road trip starts on 2/6. I think that comes out to 3 games in 11 days. We wont get this much of a break again this season. If Timmy doesn't play tonight, I don't see us worrying about his knees. I think a few extra days rest would do him a lot more good than coming back tonight and getting a double double against the Suns. A win against the Suns without Timmy would be good.

:toast

How about getting a double double in 29 minutes after having three stitches put in your eye?

[exstatic]

Just a thought, but if we're riding a 7 game winning streak and we're really not all that worried about playoff seeding, doesn't it make sense to rest Duncan as much as possible? Dude doesn't need to be on the court if he's sore at all and we're dominating.

That said, Tim, get healthy. Pronto.

It's a balancing act. You want him rested and re-couped from the knee banging/contusion, but you don't want him to lose his game conditioning. After tonight, the Spurs don't play again until Wednesday. The Philly game was last Monday, meaning he will have had no game action in 9 days. If he's healthy, he should go. It's Phoenix. He should be able to play less than average minutes.

What I'm hoping is that not sending him to Dallas was Pop's sneaky way of resting him on the front end of the B2B. Tim hates to sit out.

[Strategic]

Just a thought, but if we're riding a 7 game winning streak and we're really not all that worried about playoff seeding, doesn't it make sense to rest Duncan as much as possible? Dude doesn't need to be on the court if he's sore at all and we're dominating.

That said, Tim, get healthy. Pronto.

I agree. Timmy doesn't seem to need to stay on the court constantly, or ramp up like many players do, to keep his game sharp.

[AFBlue]

Random thought...ESPN must have dreaded every minute of airtime the Spurs had. They spent nearly the entire pre-game and halftime show talking about anything but the Spurs. It was the lead story while the game was on presumably to generate viewership, but this morning there was no direct link story even on the NBA page. It's crazy...they got a national spotlight game and were disrespected seemingly the entire time. It did sound like Jeff Van Gundy would take a job with the Spurs at anytime though.

[timvp]

This is the first time I have heard you express the opinion that Tony is among the top two point guards.Did you miss this thread from earlier in the week covering this very subject?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208373

I've mentioned plenty elsewhere that I think TP > Westbrook so that makes CP3 and TP the top two PGs in the league.


As recently as last season, you indicated (I can't quote chapter and verse, but since I spent a lot of my career interviewing people, I do tend to remember what they say) that you weren't sure that Tony was among the top 5 pgs in the league, but that he was certainly among the top ten.I doubt I said that last season. Maybe early on when he was struggling ... but certainly not after he started playing well.


As recently as earlier this season, you indicated that he 'has a terrible looking shot' when he uses that floater.No offense ... but that's pure and utter BS. I've never said that. Parker has the best floater in the history of the NBA. I would have never even thought that, much less type it.

If you're going to claim I'm biased against Parker, making up BS to try to justify your stance isn't appreciated, tbh.


Secondly, with respect your stated point of evaluating based on expectations: if a player accomplishes something for the first time in his 11 year career (like a triple double), I don't understand how you can NOT assess that as having exceeded expectations for that player. Do you see what I mean?A triple-double is more of a statistical anomaly rather than a truly great accomplishment. Rondo racks up countless meaningless triple-doubles.

Looking back, here's what I had to say about Parker's triple-double:


Congrats to Tony Parker for his first career triple-double. And, honestly, this wasn’t a cheap triple-double. On a few occasions, he was battling in midair against Houston’s bigmen for rebounds. Needless to say, it was by far Parker’s most impressive game of the season on the boards. Offensively, he was also a positive. He consistently made plays for himself and others by using his speed and underrated strength. Perhaps most importantly, Parker kept a steady hand despite the numerous runs by the Rockets. Unfortunately, D was the Frenchman’s Achilles heel on the night. His energy on that end was iffy early on and by the time Parker tried to ramp it up, Lin was blazing. He was later switched off onto other players but he was never able to make an impact on that end outside of rebounding.

So I knocked him down from an A+ to an A because Jeremy Lin had 38 points and seven assists. So, uh, yeah I stand by that. A triple-double is only so valuable. When you're giving up a career-high to Lin on the other end, getting docked half a letter grade isn't outrageous, IMO.



He is quick, but not nearly as quick as he was when he came in the league. He has lost at least a step or step-and-a-half in the last three years. He is not the fastest in the leagueNo offense but that simply isn't accurate. And it's not my subjective opinion, either. About half the NBA teams have cameras positioned around the court that track everything. One thing they track is the speed of each player. Out of everyone in the league, Parker has recorded the fastest times every year since those cameras were put into place.



he is not the best passer on this team, much less in the leagueI think he's an elite passer, especially when you factor in the avoidance of bad passes.


he does not have superior court vision for a point guardParker has good court vision. How many players spot shooters better when penetrating at full speed? Not many.


he is not a particularly gifted defensive player.When he's locked in, Parker has always been an above average defensive player.


So some of the inconsistency I see in your comments is that you have varied (again, imo) fairly widely in your assessment of Tony's abilities, but when it comes to evaluating him, you hold him to a higher standard than your other comments indicate he should be held.You must be thinking of someone else who thinks Parker isn't a top five point guard and has an ugly floater. That ain't me.


I appreciate your responses but it seems like the issues are:

1) You are underestimating how talented and dominant Parker is as a player. He's not a charity case, he's a damn good player. He's the fastest player in the league and has talent on top of that.

2) Your previous example of an unfair grade was apparently because you thought a triple-double = perfection regardless of defensive play. I disagree.

3) You are misremembering comments and associating those misremembered comments with me.







That said, I hope you continue the good fight and continue to support Parker. Like you said, it does get annoying reading the Parker bashing that takes place here. And like you said, I don't always feel like putting in the effort to combat it. But, to be honest, I'm more of an ally than you apparently realize. Disagreeing on a half letter grade here or there is pretty meaningless in the big picture. Most people (Spurs fans included) don't realize Parker's value to this team. So, yeah, I hope you keep fighting the good fight :tu

[DAF86]

1) You are underestimating how talented and dominant Parker is as a player. He's not a charity case, he's a damn good player. He's the fastest player in the league and has talent on top of that.

DPG21920 come see this shit. :lol

[DPG21920]

DPG21920 come see this shit. :lol

He's the fastest unathletic person on erfth

[AFBlue]

Another thought...seemed like Tiago was pressing early. I wonder if he felt like he had to be "the guy" with Duncan out, but the results were ugly. I'm glad Blair was there to bail the big man out until he settled down.

[Brunodf]

Another thought...seemed like Tiago was pressing early. I wonder if he felt like he had to be "the guy" with Duncan out, but the results were ugly. I'm glad Blair was there to bail the big man out until he settled down.

[2]

[Pauleta14]

:lmao I think someone has me confused with ElNono, tbh.

I spent this whole thread slurping TP, said he's the most underappreciated player in the league and gave him credit for carrying the team during this tumultuous time. The only thing that could be considered negative I said was that he's not on the same level as LeBron James and Kevin Durant. And somehow that caused an epic meltdown.

Wow.

Look at TP's season average in your game thoughts, he should at least be near Duncan or in the 90s%...

I think you're tough on him on the defensive end, it's way more difficult to defend a PG than any other position, you have to run more, go throuh screens... It's almost impossible to defend the elite PG in the nba 1on1...

Is Paul a weak defender because he can't stop TP?

Anyway, no big deal, I know you spend a lot of time defending him on the forum, but I agree with EVAY, you TOO don't give Parker the credit he deserves...

[TMTTRIO]

And, about El Nono....I mostly laugh at E-N because he has made dumping on Tony an identity issue for himself, and he is awfully good natured about it. Plus, I happen to agree with him that Manu is the best. Period. I would rather watch Ginobili play basketball than most anything. But that is it, you see, Ginobili is sooooo talented. I expect more from him. And he is flashy. Parker is not flashy. That is why I said earlier that Parker reminds me more of Tim than Manu. Because Manu gets us all on our feet because his play is a thing of wild beauty (except of course when the ball goes in the stands, but you know what I mean), whereas Tony and Tim give us win after win after win, with or without Manu. We are a far better team with Manu, but he is no longer the determinant of a win. Tony pretty much is that, without the raw talent and without the flash.

So you say you expect more out of Manu but Tony is the one that gives us wins? How many All Star games does Tony have compared to Manu? How many Final MVP's does he have compared to Manu? By now you should know by now that we need Tony to play well for us to win and even though we also need Manu to play well we can still win without him and that's why we have a lot of backups behind him.

[racm]

timvp, hasn't it hit you that the Mavs are currently the "scrubby SW Division team the Spurs always beat up"? The Pelicans have become the "scrubby SW Division team the Spurs always play close", OTOH.

Houston's in a "we can take them in a playoff series easily but they're tougher than they look" and Memphis has replaced Dallas' old role of main division rival, IMO

[Bartleby]

timvp, hasn't it hit you that the Mavs are currently the "scrubby SW Division team the Spurs always beat up"? The Pelicans have become the "scrubby SW Division team the Spurs always play close", OTOH.

Houston's in a "we can take them in a playoff series easily but they're tougher than they look" and Memphis has replaced Dallas' old role of main division rival, IMO

So does that make OKC the new Lakers or the new Phoenix?

[td4mvp21]

So does that make OKC the new Lakers or the new Phoenix?

Judging by last year's series, the new Lakers.

[jjktkk]

Tony will never be a league MVP unless Tim is gone and Pop lets TP play more minutes than he does. TP's stats would be much gaudier than they already are if he played the same number of minutes that lots of others do. That can't happen on a Pop team. That is a function of Pop, not the player.

And if this were to happen, you would be looking at a Chris Paul type situation, when Paul was in NO imo.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

The "Parker plays hero-ball" cult that seems so fashionable amongst some around here really should stop.

TP has become a consummate PG - he first tries to penetrate and create action either for himself or someone else, but if left wide open from 18ft (or alone at the 3pt line) he shoots the ball because he knows he's money from there at this point in his career. He doesn't play just for himself at all - he balances getting the rest of the team involved vs scoring when the team has gone into a funk and needs some points perfectly.

Seriously, stop hating on a superb player who has done nothing but improve each and every year in his time with the Spurs.

Whoever compared him to Westbrick should get their head checked. If Westbrick had half the savvy Parker has as a lead guard the rest of the NBA wouldn't stand a chance.