Western Conference Scout on if the Spurs are still a legit title contender

[MarHill]

Taken from Marc Stein's Weekend Dime on ESPN.com:

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-130125-26/nba-scouts-saying-now

I like the fact that the scout noticed the Spurs are better defensively and the improved play of Tiago. It might be interesting come June. :toast

Western Conference scout on if San Antonio is still a legit title contender:

"I thought they could win it all last [season]. I was sold on 'em then and I think they're a better team now. OKC and San Antonio, that's going to be the battle. I still think they're the two best teams in the West.

"The Spurs ... they're just so poised. I don't think they're too old, because they run their stuff so stinkin' well. Their guards know their roles so well and they're so deep. And [Tiago] Splitter has gotten a lot better. He's playing really big around the rim.

"I really think they can beat OKC in the playoffs this time and I've got 'em ahead of the Clippers, too. It's a playoff mentality thing. If [the Clippers] play them in a series, San Antonio is too disciplined in the playoffs.

"They're going to have to be fresh when the time comes [late in the season]. They traded baskets too much last year and it caught up to them. But Pop has them back among the top teams [defensively].

"For me, they're the most fun team to watch. You know what they're going to do. It's like clockwork. [Sitting with scouts on press row,] we'll call out the plays before they do, because we know what they're going to run. But if you stop one thing, they always know how to counter. And they're all on the same page."

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs need an extra shooter to step up with a clutch gene, like the entire OKC frontline did last year. By the end, Jack was the only one who could hit an outside shot.

[jjktkk]

So close last year. Same players, but better defense. Barring any injuries, this team will have a shot again,

[racm]

So close last year. Same players, but better defense. Barring any injuries, this team will have a shot again,

It's not so much who's on the roster but who's getting the minutes.

The rotation last year was

Parker/Neal
Green/Ginobili
Leonard/Jackson
Diaw/Bonner
Duncan/Splitter

Notice who got thrown out of the rotation, guess who got more minutes, and guess who's playing in DPOY form.

[therealtruth]

So close last year. Same players, but better defense. Barring any injuries, this team will have a shot again,

Exactly what you would expect to happen when you play your better defenders more and your worse defenders less.

[Whisky Dog]

If we take Duncan an Parker as healthy and on their game and Ginobili has relatively healthy then the difference for the Spurs in the playoffs will be two things:

1) Will Splitter continue to beast on the inside and possibly take his playoff game even higher?

2) will Green/Neal/Leonard make jumpers/3s.

Those things fall into place and it's a legit title team.

[spurraider21]

Tiago averaged somewhere like 10 minutes per game against OKC... I don't see that happening again. Although the problem is OKC does run a lot of smaller lineups with Durant at the 4, making it impossible to have Tim and Tiago at the same time. It's a matter of having Tiago have to defend somebody like Sefalosha during those stretches just so we can abuse them on offense with 2 bigs

[SA210]

The Spurs need an extra shooter to step up with a clutch gene, like the entire OKC frontline did last year. By the end, Jack was the only one who could hit an outside shot.

[td4mvp21]

Tiago averaged somewhere like 10 minutes per game against OKC... I don't see that happening again. Although the problem is OKC does run a lot of smaller lineups with Durant at the 4, making it impossible to have Tim and Tiago at the same time. It's a matter of having Tiago have to defend somebody like Sefalosha during those stretches just so we can abuse them on offense with 2 bigs

The Spurs should definitely try and make OKC adjust to the Duncan/Splitter frontcourt instead of going small to matchup with OKC. No clue if hiding Tiago on an offensive non-threat like Sefalosha will work against a small ball lineup, though.

[spurraider21]

The Spurs should definitely try and make OKC adjust to the Duncan/Splitter frontcourt instead of going small to matchup with OKC. No clue if hiding Tiago on an offensive non-threat like Sefalosha will work against a small ball lineup, though.
yeah its going to be tough but playing small ball just helps out okc way too much. granted, i still feel we CAN beat them with small ball, but the odds are further in our favor if we can have tim and tiago out there more often

[SenorSpur]

While I'm still very fearful of OKC come playoff time, and the fact that Spurs have not fared well against the Western Conference's tops team during the regular season is also disconcerning, however I do feel the Spurs are better equipped to deal with OKC this time around.

[crc21209]

I saw this earlier on ESPN. Good read, and very interesting take from a Western Conference scout. :tu

[aal04]

2 things need to happen in the finals. 1. Big 3 healthy...... 2. Roleplayers roleplay. Last year we didn't get number 2.

[mercos]

The Thunder are obviously the favorite due to the superstar factor, but I don't see how anyone could argue they are not a legit contender. They were so close last year, going up 2-0 on OKC. Timvp had a good post showing the main reason OKC won that series was ridiculous midrange shooting. I don't see them duplicating that again, especially considering they lost Harden, who killed us. Meanwhile, the Spurs are playing at roughly the same level they were last year when they won 20 straight games.

[cd021]

So close last year. Same players, but better defense. Barring any injuries, this team will have a shot again,

It also wouldn't hurt of odds if CP3 knee injury turned into something more serious, or Westbrook had a season ending injury

[exstatic]

People just don't understand what a BIG drop in talent OKC had from Harden to Martin. It's not as apparent in the regular season, but it will manifest in the playoffs, big time. OKC killed us the last four games with ONE play: multi-threat Harden on the perimeter feeding a Durant/Westbrook pick and roll. Parker couldn't guard Harden, who was too big and physical, and also created for others. He can check Martin, who isn't nearly as physical, and is only looking to score.

[racm]

People just don't understand what a BIG drop in talent OKC had from Harden to Martin. It's not as apparent in the regular season, but it will manifest in the playoffs, big time. OKC killed us the last four games with ONE play: multi-threat Harden on the perimeter feeding a Durant/Westbrook pick and roll. Parker couldn't guard Harden, who was too big and physical, and also created for others. He can check Martin, who isn't nearly as physical, and is only looking to score.

TP also defends Westbrook better IMO. OKC's go-to play in crunch time will still be Durant setting a screen for Westbrook while going to his favored spot, but what happens when teams simply deny the passing lanes (helps to have Kawhi) and do their best not to leave Martin/Sefolosha open on the weak side?

[freetiago]

Instead of letting them get all the open mid range shots they want
they should just let westbrook attempt to get his and cover everyone else
hell blow a lot of layups and turn the ball over in traffic

much rather have westbrook control okcs fate vs open abaka jumpers

[exstatic]

TP also defends Westbrook better IMO. OKC's go-to play in crunch time will still be Durant setting a screen for Westbrook while going to his favored spot, but what happens when teams simply deny the passing lanes (helps to have Kawhi) and do their best not to leave Martin/Sefolosha open on the weak side?

The problem with TP on Westbrick is he gets switched onto Durant on their pet play. Not good. Not good at all. I'd rather have TP on Martin, and use some combination of Green/Kawhi/Jack to defend the Westbrick/Durant P'n'R. That way a switch doesn't hurt us as much as if TP were in that play.

[racm]

The problem with TP on Westbrick is he gets switched onto Durant on their pet play. Not good. Not good at all. I'd rather have TP on Martin, and use some combination of Green/Kawhi/Jack to defend the Westbrick/Durant P'n'R. That way a switch doesn't hurt us as much as if TP were in that play.

Makes sense. Green is probably the most competent on-ball perimeter defender on the team (TP's good but not outstanding, primarily due to his lack of length while Kawhi's more of a disruptive help defender, and Jack is better when he's playing physical forwards).

[ElNono]

Health, health, health... unlike last season, which was short, the Spurs will have to endure the full 82 games then head on to the playoffs... it's an extra factor for a team whose best players are older...

If everyone is healthy, especially Timmy, I think this team can be better than last season, due to the Jack and Diaw being with the team longer now, and Kawhi and Tiago progression.

To me, if health is not an issue, the two biggest questions marks are:
- The lack of frontcourt depth can hurt us. Foul trouble for Tim/Tiago can be a real problem. You get Diaw in early, and then you have to go play small or bring in Blair/Bonner. Not really comfortable with this.
- Neal and Green are feast or famine. If they're not making shots, their defense just isn't anywhere near respectable to have them out there against the elite, but we're going to need one or both to play meaningful minutes.

[HarlemHeat37]

Agreed with exstatic about Harden, especially considering Kevin Martin is fragile, both physically and mentally..

I didn't feel like last year's Spurs were a legit contender, I viewed them as a darkhorse..this year's Spurs team is a legit contender IMO..they will still be underdogs against OKC and the keys will be:

1. Duncan and Ginobili's health, particularly Tim..if playoff Duncan can perform at the level we have seen this regular season, the Spurs will have 2 legit stars for the first time in years, and they'll have a standout defensive anchor for the first time in years..Ibaka cannot guard Duncan in the post, and while Perkins may give him trouble, OKC having him on the floor will hurt their offense..

Ginobili needs to produce better than Martin in the series, especially with the unreliability of Green and Neal..

2. Refs..OKC is the most ref-protected team in NBA history..it's expected that the Spurs won't receive the same treatment as the Thunder, but will the refs at least allow the Spurs to play? That wasn't the case towards the end of last year's series..

3. Can the Spurs get a 4th, maybe even 5th guy to produce?..Splitter and Leonard should be the X-Factors, but even hot shooting from either Jackson/Green/Neal could ultimately result in a championship series appearance..

[hater]

I got spurs edging d clippers a li bit now these last few days but still way behind okc. Sorry spursfans

[mingus]

I think OKC will severely miss Harden in the playoffs. His (and Durants) hard shot making ability was/is crazy. He made some ridiculous shots last year that they will need to get from someone else now because even superstars like KD need "bailed out" from time to time (just see the Finals last when Harden was contained). They're still a hell of a team, and will be a hard out, but I'm actually more afraid (not signifantly) of the Clippers now.

[Raven]

Tiago averaged somewhere like 10 minutes per game against OKC... I don't see that happening again. Although the problem is OKC does run a lot of smaller lineups with Durant at the 4, making it impossible to have Tim and Tiago at the same time. It's a matter of having Tiago have to defend somebody like Sefalosha during those stretches just so we can abuse them on offense with 2 bigs

they don't have harden anymore, they will have to adjust since there is no need to guard all 4 backcourt players since two of them (sepho and martin) need the dish to shoot. Harden could create his own shot and Splitter could not knock free throws, that was the key to those series. Now it should be them to adjust, Ibaka should be eaten alive by Duncan and Splitter if he is by himself, meaning he could get into foul trouble if he's left by himself. therefore it should be them to adjust, not the other way around.

[mrjap2x]

they don't have harden anymore, they will have to adjust since there is no need to guard all 4 backcourt players since two of them (sepho and martin) need the dish to shoot. Harden could create his own shot and Splitter could not knock free throws, that was the key to those series. Now it should be them to adjust, Ibaka should be eaten alive by Duncan and Splitter if he is by himself, meaning he could get into foul trouble if he's left by himself. therefore it should be them to adjust, not the other way around.
Very good point. Now we have the option of either adjusting to them( Kawhi @4) or make them adjust to us.
:toast

[racm]

Very good point. Now we have the option of either adjusting to them( Kawhi @4) or make them adjust to us.
:toast

I'd prefer them trying to adjust to the Spurs. Unlike the Lakers's frontcourt the Spurs' frontcourt runs the court well enough.

IMO a series against OKC wouldn't be as bad as it sounds. The Spurs (narrowly) won the first with Tiago still playing as the backup 5 and Manu out, and obviously lost the second with Tiago starting but Manu and Kawhi out (Green couldn't defend Durant at all).

[rmt]

Spurs are more balanced - front/back court wise. TD's playing much better but Neal/Kwahi are worse. Don't like Spurs record against the contenders. Clippers look very deep - Bledsoe and Crawford would be starting on other teams. Ibaka is much improved. Spurs typical defense - guard the 3pt line and no layups, allow contested, long 2s will kill them against OKC which is a fantastic mid-range jumpshooting team (like Mavs of old). Seems that the strategy OKC and MIA use to win in crunch time is switch on everything. With their superior perimeter defense, it usually works. Well, it doesn't work for OKC vs MIA as MIA has the slightly better stars, coach and experience.

[Old School 44]

It's a three team race in the West (Okc, Spurs and Clips) with spoilers in waiting (Grizzlies and Nuggets). What's different? Splitter's overall confidence and him being locked firmly in the rotation as the second best big. Splitter's pick and roll game is the one of the best in the league, but I think it will be his defense, along with Duncan and Kahwi that will make the difference in this year's playoffs.

[AFBlue]

Difference from last year is Splitter/Duncan combo. It allows more PT for a strong defensive frontline without offensive impotence because they'll have run it almost a full season.

[mrjap2x]

I'd prefer them trying to adjust to the Spurs. Unlike the Lakers's frontcourt the Spurs' frontcourt runs the court well enough.

IMO a series against OKC wouldn't be as bad as it sounds. The Spurs (narrowly) won the first with Tiago still playing as the backup 5 and Manu out, and obviously lost the second with Tiago starting but Manu and Kawhi out (Green couldn't defend Durant at all).
Yeah, it is always better to make your opponent adjust to you but having options means that you can make them off balance.

[td4mvp21]

People just don't understand what a BIG drop in talent OKC had from Harden to Martin. It's not as apparent in the regular season, but it will manifest in the playoffs, big time. OKC killed us the last four games with ONE play: multi-threat Harden on the perimeter feeding a Durant/Westbrook pick and roll. Parker couldn't guard Harden, who was too big and physical, and also created for others. He can check Martin, who isn't nearly as physical, and is only looking to score.

I really hope you're right regarding Harden. Everyone is saying that, but as you said, it's really not apparent in the regular season. Statistically, their offense is more efficient than it was last season.

[exstatic]

Duncan himself will be a huge difference.

[exstatic]

I really hope you're right regarding Harden. Everyone is saying that, but as you said, it's really not apparent in the regular season. Statistically, their offense is more efficient than it was last season.

Fools gold. ;)

[Agloco]

The Thunder are obviously the favorite due to the superstar factor, but I don't see how anyone could argue they are not a legit contender. They were so close last year, going up 2-0 on OKC. Timvp had a good post showing the main reason OKC won that series was ridiculous midrange shooting. I don't see them duplicating that again, especially considering they lost Harden, who killed us. Meanwhile, the Spurs are playing at roughly the same level they were last year when they won 20 straight games.

Indeed. I don't recall the exact breakdown, but I recall that he posted a percentage around 85% in a certain situation?

I got the feeling that OKC wouldn't miss any shots at meaningful junctures.... and that didn't even include the game where their 3 bigs combined for a 21-22 outing, or something ridiculous like that.

I also remember telling myself at the time that the series seemed to change midway through the third quarter of Game 2, right after TP assisted to Manu on a three. After that, it was all OKC. The Spurs will need to make the proper adjustments this time around.

[exstatic]

Indeed. I don't recall the exact breakdown, but I recall that he posted a percentage around 85% in a certain situation?

I got the feeling that OKC wouldn't miss any shots at meaningful junctures.... and that didn't even include the game where their 3 bigs combined for a 21-22 outing, or something ridiculous like that.

I also remember telling myself at the time that the series seemed to change midway through the third quarter of Game 2, right after TP assisted to Manu on a three. After that, it was all OKC. The Spurs will need to make the proper adjustments this time around.

Ibaka and Perk shot 18/20 (90%) in game 4 which they won by 6. Even excellent long 2 point shooters hit about 45%. If you extrapolate that to 20 shots, it's 9/20. Subtract 9 baskets, and we win by 12, and are going home for an elimination game 5.

[DPG21920]

timvp do you believe the Spurs defense is as good as the numbers suggest? Meaning, are you confident that in the playoffs, against a team like OKC or LAC, the defense can get consistent stops when need be?

[TDMVPDPOY]

Ibaka and Perk shot 18/20 (90%) in game 4 which they won by 6. Even excellent long 2 point shooters hit about 45%. If you extrapolate that to 20 shots, it's 9/20. Subtract 9 baskets, and we win by 12, and are going home for an elimination game 5.

dont play the stupid fluke game bullshit like everyone around here likes to throw around, and dont say they havnt improved from last season is bullshit....hate it when clowns on here underestimate the other team and downplay there fkn victories.....

the spurs didnt improve much, its still the same fkn roster with splitter starting is the only difference, its not like everyone has picked up their game either....some of the players on the team continue to be blackholes when the team needs them

spurs can play any style, but when other team adjusts to the spurs, we shrivel and dont adjust or find a solution but continue to stick to the same game plan/rotations and giving minutes to players who continue to stink it up hoping they get out of it with more playing time

u know whats the difference between this season and last season? players who came out of nowhere were consistent last season with their production, this season too many players have had alot of bad games or not showing up....cant have that sort of shit if its not sorted out quick heading into the playoffs....

[exstatic]

dont play the stupid fluke game bullshit like everyone around here likes to throw around, and dont say they havnt improved from last season is bullshit....hate it when clowns on here underestimate the other team and downplay there fkn victories.....

the spurs didnt improve much, its still the same fkn roster with splitter starting is the only difference, its not like everyone has picked up their game either....some of the players on the team continue to be blackholes when the team needs them

spurs can play any style, but when other team adjusts to the spurs, we shrivel and dont adjust or find a solution but continue to stick to the same game plan/rotations and giving minutes to players who continue to stink it up hoping they get out of it with more playing time

u know whats the difference between this season and last season? players who came out of nowhere were consistent last season with their production, this season too many players have had alot of bad games or not showing up....cant have that sort of shit if its not sorted out quick heading into the playoffs....

Considering you're the forum clown/dumbass, I'll take your disagreement as a positive step towards my conclusion. What OKC's bigs hit in that game was as far beyond the END of the bell curve as you are from a normal human being.

[DesignatedT]

The Spurs have showed substantial improvement on the defensive side of the ball. The reason the Spurs lost last season was because they couldn't get stops when they needed them. The Spurs are up in the top 4 in defensive efficiency rating (haven't finished in the top 10 the last two seasons) and have been the best defensive team in the NBA over the past month since the return of Leonard.

The roster might be the same but the focus on defense > offense is quite evident so far this season. That makes for a huge difference compared to last years team.

That is the biggest difference.

[Strategic]

I see the biggest challenge for the Spurs as shoring up the back-up point position. Hoping this is why Pop sent Joseph back to Toros. Every time Cojo gets in more PT in Austin he gets better and gains confidence. With Neal, De Colo and Mills all attempting, but coming up short at filling the void Joseph may be yet needed.

[DesignatedT]

Parker should play north of 35+ minutes a game in the playoffs. That leaves 10-12 minutes to hold down when Tony is resting. If Manu is healthy enough to dominate ball handling duties it really isn't that big of a problem.

[quentin_compson]

I think the Spurs' margin for error in the Playoffs will be very small, and that also includes the health situation, if you want to put it that way. If they are reasonably healthy come Playoff time, they surely have what it takes to reach the CF again and give whomever they might meet there a run for their money.

[DPG21920]

Parker should play north of 35+ minutes a game in the playoffs. That leaves 10-12 minutes to hold down when Tony is resting. If Manu is healthy enough to dominate ball handling duties it really isn't that big of a problem.

I have no idea how a Spurs fan can say that after seeing what happened last year.

[DesignatedT]

I have no idea how a Spurs fan can say that after seeing what happened last year.

What happened last year?

[Strategic]

I have no idea how a Spurs fan can say that after seeing what happened last year.


Yep. Sometimes I think some fans think this is still 5 years ago.

[DesignatedT]

Yep. Sometimes I think some fans think this is still 5 years ago.

Explain

[TheSkeptic]

I have no idea how a Spurs fan can say that after seeing what happened last year.

Completely agreed. Actually I think that if the Spurs get beat this year, this will be a big part of the reason why.

And also, Spurs fans need only look at some of our games from this season to see the problem. No need to look back to last year.

[DPG21920]

What happened last year?

Did you not see the bench vs the Thunder in the playoffs?

[DesignatedT]

I did. I was talking specifically about the backup PG spot. It is definitely the biggest concern we have on the roster but I'm not sure what people want to do about it.

Neal was/is pretty awful and that's why I would rather go with Manu at the PG spot with defenders like Green/Leonard/Jack next to him on the perimeter. The Spurs shouldn't rely on depth as much when it comes to Parker because he can handle the minutes. He should rest 5 minutes per half. If healthy I think Manu can handle 10 minutes at point per game.

[Mel_13]

I agree 100% with DesignatedT and I really don't understand the objections to what he said. Unless, that is, you believe that the Spur have no chance to beat OKC with the current roster and then you should come right out and say that. What DesignatedT outlined was the best rotation that the Spurs can possibly deploy and how the lack of a true backup PG can best be overcome. Check the rotation from the second half of last night's game for a preview of how that will be done.

[racm]

The Spurs have showed substantial improvement on the defensive side of the ball. The reason the Spurs lost last season was because they couldn't get stops when they needed them. The Spurs are up in the top 4 in defensive efficiency rating (haven't finished in the top 10 the last two seasons) and have been the best defensive team in the NBA over the past month since the return of Leonard.

The roster might be the same but the focus on defense > offense is quite evident so far this season. That makes for a huge difference compared to last years team.

That is the biggest difference.

Part of why the Spurs have gotten better on defense is that they've gotten much better at contesting 3s (they're 3rd in opposing 3P% as opposed to 14th/15th last season) and they're more amenable to forcing turnovers (Manu was the only guy given the green light to gamble before Kawhi arrived). Their defensive rebounding and policy of not fouling is still there.

[Arcadian]

Spurs right now:
Best record in the NBA at 36-11, on pace for 62-20
Best streak in the NBA with 8 wins (9-1 in last 10)
Best home record in the NBA at 20-2 (that's just sick)
All-star PG, all-star PF/C, and all-star coach (and reigning coach of the year)
DPOY candidate in Duncan
Duncan/Splitter playing like Twin Towers

Meanwhile, the Thunder, Clippers, and Heat are all looking beatable. We are definitely poised for a title run.

[racm]

IMO Manu should be at 28 mpg and Timmy 32 mpg in the postseason. The Spurs can handle them resting more because Tony's gotten much better as a playmaker whilst Tiago is no longer a net liability on the court.

The rotation should be

Tony/Manu as the ball handlers
Green/Leonard/Jackson as wings
Tim/Tiago/Boris as bigs

[Mel_13]

IMO Manu should be at 28 mpg and Timmy 32 mpg in the postseason. The Spurs can handle them resting more because Tony's gotten much better as a playmaker whilst Tiago is no longer a net liability on the court.

The rotation should be

Tony/Manu as the ball handlers
Green/Leonard/Jackson as wings
Tim/Tiago/Boris as bigs

That's about right, although I believe we'll see an 8.5 man rotation with 8-10 minutes for the guard (Neal or Mills) who plays next to Manu while Tony rests for 4-5 minutes each half.

[DesignatedT]

Part of why the Spurs have gotten better on defense is that they've gotten much better at contesting 3s (they're 3rd in opposing 3P% as opposed to 14th/15th last season)

:tu


The rotation should be

Tony/Manu as the ball handlers
Green/Leonard/Jackson as wings
Tim/Tiago/Boris as bigs

I agree with this. With Neal probably getting some spot minutes at the 2 guard.

[look_at_g_shred]

Spurs right now:
Best record in the NBA at 36-11, on pace for 62-20
Best streak in the NBA with 8 wins (9-1 in last 10)
Best home record in the NBA at 20-2 (that's just sick)
All-star PG, all-star PF/C, and all-star coach (and reigning coach of the year)
DPOY candidate in Duncan
Duncan/Splitter playing like Twin Towers

Meanwhile, the Thunder, Clippers, and Heat are all looking beatable. We are definitely poised for a title run.

Sounds so good.

[look_at_g_shred]

I know it's early but the way we are playing at home makes having HCA in the playoffs this year a must!

[racm]

Spurs right now:
Best record in the NBA at 36-11, on pace for 62-20
Best streak in the NBA with 8 wins (9-1 in last 10)
Best home record in the NBA at 20-2 (that's just sick)
All-star PG, all-star PF/C, and all-star coach (and reigning coach of the year)
DPOY candidate in Duncan
Duncan/Splitter playing like Twin Towers

Meanwhile, the Thunder, Clippers, and Heat are all looking beatable. We are definitely poised for a title run.

Won 17 of their last 20 after KL returned too. :toast

[DPG21920]

I agree 100% with DesignatedT and I really don't understand the objections to what he said. Unless, that is, you believe that the Spur have no chance to beat OKC with the current roster and then you should come right out and say that. What DesignatedT outlined was the best rotation that the Spurs can possibly deploy and how the lack of a true backup PG can best be overcome. Check the rotation from the second half of last night's game for a preview of how that will be done.

What he actually said is that based on his outline, it shouldn't really be a problem. We, as Spurs fans, saw up close and personal how much of a problem the 2nd unit (in particular back up PG duties) could be last year vs OKC.

I agree that's likely the route to go, but that doesn't mean it's not really a problem. If it was that easy, Spurs would not have been searching long and hard for a de facto back up PG for so long. They have signed and tried numerous guys and that is still a rather large question mark.

[look_at_g_shred]

dont play the stupid fluke game bullshit like everyone around here likes to throw around, and dont say they havnt improved from last season is bullshit....hate it when clowns on here underestimate the other team and downplay there fkn victories.....

the spurs didnt improve much, its still the same fkn roster with splitter starting is the only difference, its not like everyone has picked up their game either....some of the players on the team continue to be blackholes when the team needs them

spurs can play any style, but when other team adjusts to the spurs, we shrivel and dont adjust or find a solution but continue to stick to the same game plan/rotations and giving minutes to players who continue to stink it up hoping they get out of it with more playing time

u know whats the difference between this season and last season? players who came out of nowhere were consistent last season with their production, this season too many players have had alot of bad games or not showing up....cant have that sort of shit if its not sorted out quick heading into the playoffs....

Person who beat us in Game 5 is no longer with OKC. Game 6 4th quarter belonged to the refs TBH.

[TheSkeptic]

I agree 100% with DesignatedT and I really don't understand the objections to what he said. Unless, that is, you believe that the Spur have no chance to beat OKC with the current roster and then you should come right out and say that. What DesignatedT outlined was the best rotation that the Spurs can possibly deploy and how the lack of a true backup PG can best be overcome. Check the rotation from the second half of last night's game for a preview of how that will be done.

What I take issue with is DesignatedT saying that the ballhandling for the second unit shouldn't be a problem. We saw last season and this season how the lack of a decent back-up point can and has compromised the second unit's production. Diaw/Manu may be enough to keep the bench afloat and all, but I don't see how Spurs fans can be waving this off as if it's not a concern. I agree that Manu's a way better option than Neal though and under the circumstances DesignatedT's outline is the the best San Antonio can do.

[Mel_13]

What he actually said is that based on his outline, it shouldn't really be a problem. We, as Spurs fans, saw up close and personal how much of a problem the 2nd unit (in particular back up PG duties) could be last year vs OKC.

Weren't you the one that said something about variable changing?

The main source of problems for the 2nd unit in last year's WCF now plays for the Rockets. If Manu remains with the bench unit, the solution for the backup PG problem was seen in the second half of last night's game.

[DPG21920]

Also, people sleeping on OKC are odd to me as well. People keep citing the loss of Harden like that means the Spurs will dominate them. Many of the same problems exist (namely, their best players can basically play the full game and the Spurs best cannot) and they are still the favorite in a series for the Spurs. Does the loss of Harden close the gap? I believe it does, but people acting like the Spurs just absolutely leap-frogged OKC because of the loss of Harden are in for a rude awakening if they think it will be easy.

[DPG21920]

Weren't you the one that said something about variable changing?

The main source of problems for the 2nd unit in last year's WCF now plays for the Rockets. If Manu remains with the bench unit, the solution for the backup PG problem was seen in the second half of last night's game.

So why then have the Spurs signed Patty Mills, kept Cory Joseph, run Nando at PG and still give Neal minutes at back up PG? They are searching for something and to act like it's not a problem (as DT said) does not make sense to me personally. Yes, Harden is gone, but that doesn't mean the Spurs magically got better at the back up PG spot.

So you agree that there is no problem at all with the back up PG spot at the moment and is of no concern at all? Because that is essentially what DT said and the only part I personally was taken aback by.

[Mel_13]

What I take issue with is DesignatedT saying that the ballhandling for the second unit shouldn't be a problem. We saw last season and this season how the lack of a decent back-up point can and has compromised the second unit's production. Diaw/Manu may be enough to keep the bench afloat and all, but I don't see how Spurs fans can be waving this off as if it's not a concern. I agree that Manu's a way better option than Neal though and under the circumstances DesignatedT's outline is the the best San Antonio can do.

I'm not sure who you're talking about "waving it off". I didn't read DesignatedT's post that way and I know I'm not waving it off. The Spurs don't have a true backup PG. They do have Manu Ginobili. For 8-10 minutes per game, Manu plus Neal/Mills will have to suffice. It's far better than 8-10 minutes with Tony and Manu both on the bench.

[look_at_g_shred]

Also, people sleeping on OKC are odd to me as well. People keep citing the loss of Harden like that means the Spurs will dominate them. Many of the same problems exist (namely, their best players can basically play the full game and the Spurs best cannot) and they are still the favorite in a series for the Spurs. Does the loss of Harden close the gap? I believe it does, but people acting like the Spurs just absolutely leap-frogged OKC because of the loss of Harden are in for a rude awakening if they think it will be easy.

No one said it be easier with the Harden loss. It just takes away an extra playmaker okc had. I understand OKC are a good team, yet Im sure they think the same thing. It amazes me though how most of the people on here think OKC are invincible.

[look_at_g_shred]

I'm not sure who you're talking about "waving it off". I didn't read DesignatedT's post that way and I know I'm not waving it off. The Spurs don't have a true backup PG. They do have Manu Ginobili. For 8-10 minutes per game, Manu plus Neal/Mills will have to suffice. It's far better than 8-10 minutes with Tony and Manu both on the bench.

Would rather have mills at PG and neal at SG

[Mel_13]

So why then have the Spurs signed Patty Mills, kept Cory Joseph, run Nando at PG and still give Neal minutes at back up PG? They are searching for something and to act like it's not a problem (as DT said) does not make sense to me personally. Yes, Harden is gone, but that doesn't mean the Spurs magically got better at the back up PG spot.

So you agree that there is no problem at all with the back up PG spot at the moment and is of no concern at all? Because that is essentially what DT said and the only part I personally was taken aback by.

I'm not going to play the game where you say what I mean.

Those guys are getting chances in the regular season for the obvious reason. To see if one of them can seize the position. It would be preferable to have one of them do so. It would allow Tony and Manu to play more minutes together. To this point, none of the possible candidates has established himself as a reliable option for the role in the playoffs. So you go with the next best option.

[DPG21920]

So boiled down, you agree with DT saying the back up PG is not really a problem - I just don't agree with that. Do I think it's some massive issue that will ultimately be the undoing of this team? Probably not, but I would not dismiss it as DT did in his post.

[TheSkeptic]

I'm not sure who you're talking about "waving it off". I didn't read DesignatedT's post that way and I know I'm not waving it off. The Spurs don't have a true backup PG. They do have Manu Ginobili. For 8-10 minutes per game, Manu plus Neal/Mills will have to suffice. It's far better than 8-10 minutes with Tony and Manu both on the bench.

Bah...Looks like DPG's making most of my points.

DesignatedT specifically said that the ballhandling "isn't that big of a problem" if Manu's healthy and available. I'm in agreement that Manu's our best bet (I don't trust Neal or Mills with ballhandling duties) but it's still a band-aid solution to cover up the lack of a proper back-up point. This is probably our team's biggest weakness right now so I'm personally surprised that a Spur fan would say that it isn't really a big deal. If the Spurs get beaten in the post-season I think that this is most likely one of the reasons. That said, it should be nothing like the Blair/Bonner versus Memphis fiasco.

[Mel_13]

Also, people sleeping on OKC are odd to me as well. People keep citing the loss of Harden like that means the Spurs will dominate them. Many of the same problems exist (namely, their best players can basically play the full game and the Spurs best cannot) and they are still the favorite in a series for the Spurs. Does the loss of Harden close the gap? I believe it does, but people acting like the Spurs just absolutely leap-frogged OKC because of the loss of Harden are in for a rude awakening if they think it will be easy.

Again, I don't know who you're referring to. Certainly not me. Losing Harden hurts OKC. They'll still probably be the favorites in any series before a Finals rematch with Miami, but they are vulnerable in ways that they weren't last year.

[Mel_13]

So boiled down, you agree with DT saying the back up PG is not really a problem - I just don't agree with that. Do I think it's some massive issue that will ultimately be the undoing of this team? Probably not, but I would not dismiss it as DT did in his post.

Again, you should stick with saying what you mean. I'm quite capable of saying what I mean.

[DPG21920]

I agree - was not talking about you.

[look_at_g_shred]

And no one is sleeping on OKC lol

[DPG21920]

Again, you should stick with saying what you mean. I'm quite capable of saying what I mean.

Huh? I said what I mean. I said I think the back up PG is not "no problem" as DT said. You said you agreed with DT's post. Am I missing something here?

[Mel_13]

Bah...Looks like DPG's making most of my points.

DesignatedT specifically said that the ballhandling "isn't that big of a problem" if Manu's healthy and available. I'm in agreement that Manu's our best bet (I don't trust Neal or Mills with ballhandling duties) but it's still a band-aid solution to cover up the lack of a proper back-up point. This is probably our team's biggest weakness right now so I'm personally surprised that a Spur fan would say that it isn't really a big deal.

We're talking about 8-10 minutes a game where Manu is the primary playmaker because we don't have a true PG. It's an issue, but I don't see it as the team's biggest weakness.

[Mel_13]

Huh? I said what I mean. I said I think the back up PG is not "no problem" as DT said. You said you agreed with DT's post. Am I missing something here?

We apparently don't agree on the meaning of DT's post, so when you summarize your understanding of his post and ascribe that same understanding to my position we have a difference.

[look_at_g_shred]

Actually mills playing the point isn't really bad at all.

[DPG21920]

We apparently don't agree on the meaning of DT's post, so when you summarize your understanding of his post and ascribe that same understanding to my position we have a difference.

I see. I just thought that when DT explicitly stated it's not really an issue and when I stated that is what I disagree with him on and you said "I don't really understand the objections" that you were debating that point.

[DPG21920]

Parker should play north of 35+ minutes a game in the playoffs. That leaves 10-12 minutes to hold down when Tony is resting. If Manu is healthy enough to dominate ball handling duties it really isn't that big of a problem.

This is what he said and I don't really see how that can be interpreted any different. He didn't just say "here's the best way to overcome the issue", he, as you can see, said "it really isn't that big of a problem" - hence the disagreement.

[DesignatedT]

For the record, I never said the backup pg spot wasn't a concern. I said it wasn't that big of a problem. As in the inconsistent play of Diaw / Splitter, the overall health of the team, etc etc are all problems the Spurs will have to overcome. I'm just saying that if managed correctly, the backup PG spot can be handled better then it was last season even though we have the same roster. Tony needs to play 38 minutes per game. That leaves 10 minutes with him not on the court and therefore I don't see how it's more of a problem then some of our other issues. Ginobili at the backup PG spot could work to be a very good thing IMO and as he gets older I actually think he's better suited in this position.

[TheSkeptic]

We're talking about 8-10 minutes a game where Manu is the primary playmaker because we don't have a true PG. It's an issue, but I don't see it as the team's biggest weakness.

I can see where you're coming from. Like I said, this is nothing like the Bonner/Blair situation where the bigs after TD just wouldn't be able to get it done.The lack of a proper back-up pg has a bit of a domino effect though in my opinion but I guess I'm also looking at it from the perspective of not needing the 3 point shooters to show up every game to win. If the Spurs get beat in the post-season, I think the second unit's production will be a factor (along with the big 3 running out of gas).

[Mel_13]

I see. I just thought that when DT explicitly stated it's not really an issue and when I stated that is what I disagree with him on and you said "I don't really understand the objections" that you were debating that point.


This is what he said and I don't really see how that can be interpreted any different. He didn't just say "here's the best way to overcome the issue", he, as you can see, said "it really isn't that big of a problem" - hence the disagreement.

Two bolded parts are not the same.

[Strategic]

I see the biggest challenge for the Spurs as shoring up the back-up point position. Hoping this is why Pop sent Joseph back to Toros. Every time Cojo gets in more PT in Austin he gets better and gains confidence. With Neal, De Colo and Mills all attempting, but coming up short at filling the void Joseph may be yet needed.

Sorry folks when I posted this i didn't realize i would give the impression that Tony and Manu aren't capable of handling the PG duties. i was more speaking of the fragility of not having a back up plan. Most know that Manu is capable of playing PG. I felt better last year when Ford was on the roster. Also during the Spurs last title year when they had two back up true point guards. Joseph seems to be the only true point on the payroll outside of Parker, with apologies to Mills.

[DPG21920]

Two bolded parts are not the same.

:lol What? "It's not really an issue" & "It really isn't that big of a problem" is materially different how? Also, either way, you seemingly completely ignored that point either way and when it was brought up again, you said you interpreted his post differently by essentially saying he just said what the best solution is with the current roster. The only point I disagreed with was the bolded part.

[TheSkeptic]

Actually mills playing the point isn't really bad at all.

Since Mills isn't very good at distributing the ball and passing, yes it would be a problem for me in the playoffs.

[Mel_13]

I can see where you're coming from. Like I said, this is nothing like the Bonner/Blair situation where the bigs after TD just wouldn't be able to get it done.The lack of a proper back-up pg has a bit of a domino effect though in my opinion but I guess I'm also looking at it from the perspective of not needing the 3 point shooters to show up every game to win. If the Spurs get beat in the post-season, I think the second unit's production will be a factor (along with the big 3 running out of gas).

I'd agree with most all of that.

[ElNono]

You can say the same thing about any ones front court

Defensively, we're extremely reliant on Duncan and Tiago protecting the rim. Obviously, this isn't any new discovery. Other teams don't rely as much on that, since they have young and capable defenders on the perimeter. We really don't. We have good defenders, but we don't have the Battier/Sefolosha/Trick or Treat Tony Allen kind...

Other teams also have younger legs that can play more minutes. Ibaka can play 40 mins no problem, Collison can also play extended minutes for them. Asking Tim to do that for us over a 7 game series is going to be problematic.

[Mel_13]

:lol What? "It's not really an issue" & "It really isn't that big of a problem" is materially different how? Also, either way, you seemingly completely ignored that point either way and when it was brought up again, you said you interpreted his post differently by essentially saying he just said what the best solution is with the current roster. The only point I disagreed with was the bolded part.

They are different, I didn't ignore the point and it was not at all obvious what the exact nature of your disagreement was until after my first post in this thread.

[DesignatedT]

Defensively, we're extremely reliant on Duncan and Tiago protecting the rim. Obviously, this isn't any new discovery. Other teams don't rely as much on that, since they have young and capable defenders on the perimeter. We really don't. We have good defenders, but we don't have the Battier/Sefolosha/Trick or Treat Tony Allen kind...

Other teams also have younger legs that can play more minutes. Ibaka can play 40 mins no problem, Collison can also play extended minutes for them. Asking Tim to do that for us over a 7 game series is going to be problematic.

and tbh this is more of a concern to me then the backup PG situation (if handled correctly).

[therealtruth]

Pop has to decide what he wants out of that backup PG spot. I would say all you need from a backup PG is the ability to hit a jumpshot and keep the defense honest, the ability to look for others, and playing good defense.

[TD 21]

Defensively, we're extremely reliant on Duncan and Tiago protecting the rim. Obviously, this isn't any new discovery. Other teams don't rely as much on that, since they have young and capable defenders on the perimeter. We really don't. We have good defenders, but we don't have the Battier/Sefolosha/Trick or Treat Tony Allen kind...

Other teams also have younger legs that can play more minutes. Ibaka can play 40 mins no problem, Collison can also play extended minutes for them. Asking Tim to do that for us over a 7 game series is going to be problematic.

Yeah, but no one can guard James or Durant anyway. And given the level that Duncan and to a lesser extent, Splitter, are playing at defensively this season, I'd take them over what any other contender has to in terms of rim protection. In fact, they're probably the best defensive big tandem in the league. The only true weakness they have is the pick-and-pop.

The minutes thing is what probably does the Spurs in against the Thunder again (that and/or officiating). The fact that Durant and Westbrook can play virtually unlimited minutes and almost all of their other key rotation players can go well over a quarter without a break, is a major advantage and it helps obscure the fact that they're not a deep team. I could see the Spurs starters outscoring theirs head to head, but if their big four average something approaching 20 more mpg than the Spurs big four does, it likely won't matter.

[ElNono]

Yeah, but no one can guard James or Durant anyway. And given the level that Duncan and to a lesser extent, Splitter, are playing at defensively this season, I'd take them over what any other contender has to in terms of rim protection. In fact, they're probably the best defensive big tandem in the league. The only true weakness they have is the pick-and-pop.

Well, I spoke about depth on that position, not how those two match up with anybody else. Like I said, foul trouble on either or both can really hurt us, because the drop down, especially when it comes to rim protection, it's major. It goes hand in hand with the minutes thing, because neither Tim or Tiago seem to be able to play that many minutes.

Which takes me to another point: I understand in the case of Tim that his minutes are limited, but I really don't like that Tiago isn't getting more burn. He's at 23 mpg right now and, IMO, he needs to build up that stamina of extra minutes and get used to the extra load. He's young, there's no reason not to. The alternative is playing Blair/Bonner which are useless come playoff time, or small ball, which might work against some teams, but I don't think it's ideal. Maybe Pop is waiting until March to amp his role up...

[DPG21920]

Nono, judging by Pop's comments, he is legitimately concerned about Tiago's health. He's pretty blunt in stating Tiago has not gotten more time over the years due to his inability to stay healthy. If that is the case, managing his minutes (along with still quite a bit of line up tinkering) I would imagine has more to do with that mindset and as the season progresses I would expect more minutes.

[ElNono]

Nono, judging by Pop's comments, he is legitimately concerned about Tiago's health. He's pretty blunt in stating Tiago has not gotten more time over the years due to his inability to stay healthy. If that is the case, managing his minutes (along with still quite a bit of line up tinkering) I would imagine has more to do with that mindset and as the season progresses I would expect more minutes.

I understand the cautious approach with the older players, but I don't really subscribe to Pop's minute limits on younger guys. Just my personal opinion. Tiago might or might not be prone to injuries, and limiting his minutes doesn't really guarantee anything. He can get hurt the next game or mid-March. It's not like there's anything chronic with him that can be tracked down and prevented by limiting minutes.

Again, just my personal observation/opinion, I think we've been bit in the ass before having players extremely tired when they had to play an extra 5-10 mins more than they're accustomed to.

As I said, I hope Pop starts to ramp up his minutes come March... I think we're going to need those extra minutes from him when the playoffs roll around.

[Mel_13]

Well, I spoke about depth on that position, not how those two match up with anybody else. Like I said, foul trouble on either or both can really hurt us, because the drop down, especially when it comes to rim protection, it's major. It goes hand in hand with the minutes thing, because neither Tim or Tiago seem to be able to play that many minutes.

Which takes me to another point: I understand in the case of Tim that his minutes are limited, but I really don't like that Tiago isn't getting more burn. He's at 23 mpg right now and, IMO, he needs to build up that stamina of extra minutes and get used to the extra load. He's young, there's no reason not to. The alternative is playing Blair/Bonner which are useless come playoff time, or small ball, which might work against some teams, but I don't think it's ideal. Maybe Pop is waiting until March to amp his role up...


I understand the cautious approach with the older players, but I don't really subscribe to Pop's minute limits on younger guys. Just my personal opinion. Tiago might or might not be prone to injuries, and limiting his minutes doesn't really guarantee anything. He can get hurt the next game or mid-March. It's not like there's anything chronic with him that can be tracked down and prevented by limiting minutes.

Again, just my personal observation/opinion, I think we've been bit in the ass before having players extremely tired when they had to play an extra 5-10 mins more than they're accustomed to.

As I said, I hope Pop starts to ramp up his minutes come March... I think we're going to need those extra minutes from him when the playoffs roll around.

No need to wait until March. Tiago's minutes per game this season:

Oct/Nov (17 games/2 starts): 18.7 mpg
December (16 games/9 starts): 22.8 mpg
January (14 games/14 starts): 28.5 mpg

And those minutes have been held down a bit by a few blowouts. Tony, for example, has averaged 33.3 mpg in those same 14 January games.

Tiago is also on pace, even at 23 mpg, to shatter his personal record for minutes played in a single season.

[racm]

No need to wait until March. Tiago's minutes per game this season:

Oct/Nov (17 games/2 starts): 18.7 mpg
December (16 games/9 starts): 22.8 mpg
January (14 games/14 starts): 28.5 mpg

And those minutes have been held down a bit by a few blowouts. Tony, for example, has averaged 33.3 mpg in those same 14 January games.

Tiago is also on pace, even at 23 mpg, to shatter his personal record for minutes played in a single season.

28 mpg makes sense. I'm not saying we should ride Tiago out like an old nag but if he and Tim can combine for 64-68 mpg for the two big spots it shouldn't be bad.

[Tbiggums47]

Fellows,

I think all of your points about this teams short comings are true to some degree but my observation and concern about this team for the last several years has been our ability to assert ourselves physically and rebound with the better teams so that we might better control the tempo. I think the Aron Baynes move goes a long way to address that concern. If Aron can battle with the Collison and Perkins Combo we will have "improved" our ability to compete with the likes of OKC and Miami. I observed a lot of times when playing those teams..Unless were effective offensively at the end of the game...We have lacked in the capacity to control and force the tempo to our liking...Just a thought!

[Brunodf]

I understand the cautious approach with the older players, but I don't really subscribe to Pop's minute limits on younger guys. Just my personal opinion. Tiago might or might not be prone to injuries, and limiting his minutes doesn't really guarantee anything. He can get hurt the next game or mid-March. It's not like there's anything chronic with him that can be tracked down and prevented by limiting minutes.

Again, just my personal observation/opinion, I think we've been bit in the ass before having players extremely tired when they had to play an extra 5-10 mins more than they're accustomed to.

As I said, I hope Pop starts to ramp up his minutes come March... I think we're going to need those extra minutes from him when the playoffs roll around.

Also Kawhi should be playing at least 35 minutes/game.

[TD 21]

Well, I spoke about depth on that position, not how those two match up with anybody else. Like I said, foul trouble on either or both can really hurt us, because the drop down, especially when it comes to rim protection, it's major. It goes hand in hand with the minutes thing, because neither Tim or Tiago seem to be able to play that many minutes.

Which takes me to another point: I understand in the case of Tim that his minutes are limited, but I really don't like that Tiago isn't getting more burn. He's at 23 mpg right now and, IMO, he needs to build up that stamina of extra minutes and get used to the extra load. He's young, there's no reason not to. The alternative is playing Blair/Bonner which are useless come playoff time, or small ball, which might work against some teams, but I don't think it's ideal. Maybe Pop is waiting until March to amp his role up...

Fair enough.

Actually, Duncan can still handle quite a few minutes. It's just not wise to push him during the regular season for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that they don't have to. And if lumbering behemoths like Bynum and M. Gasol could play over 5 mpg more during a condensed season, I don't see any reason why Splitter couldn't handle 30 (which, as Mel pointed out, he's now close to doing). Against the elite teams: 36 mpg for Duncan, 30 mpg for Splitter, means 30 big minutes left over. Most can go to Diaw and a few to Jackson in select match-ups.

One of the positives about a Thunder or Heat match-up is, health/foul trouble notwithstanding, the Spurs lack of a reliable fourth big won't matter much. The Thunder have mostly stayed big this season, but they're playing more small ball lately and in a series against the Spurs, I can't imagine Brooks being dumb enough to waste a meaningful minute on Thabeet (at least not for more than a game or two). Also, Jackson on Ibaka is something they could at least try. It's not like they'd need to rely on it for more than spot minutes anyway.