bonner top pf defender 2012-2013 season

[LASToog36]

while looking up top defenders and possible trades for the spurs to become a defensive power house good ol matt bonners name popped up.... guess pops smarter than we think in his love affair for the red rocket and all the bonner haters can suck a fat one http://www.sportingcharts.com/articles/nba/the-nbas-best-defensive-players-(2011-2012).aspx

[justinandimcool]

*2011-2012

past his prime, TOSB, etc., tbh

[FkLA]

I think its the ginger effect, people assume hes worse than what he really is. Matty Ice was the king of +/- for a reason tbh.

[chazley]

I've been laughed at til people were blue in the face when I would defend Bonner. He is an above-average post defender, elite 3-pt shooter, and a solid piece on a championship team if he's playing 10-15 minutes a night.

[racm]

Oh no, CoB is out in full force.

That said Bonbon is a solid post defender. He did solid work on ZBo.

But the problem is his team defense, and that's more important.

[Obstructed_View]

With his limited minutes, teams can't abuse him in the post.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Poor article. Does not consider the limited minutes that Bonner has played.. does not consider other defensive metrics stats - adjusted per minutes stats etc as well as the more sophisticated Synergy Stats on the same subject.

Having said that, Bonner's post defense is better than it is acknowledged by us.

[Russo21]

Maybe the other 4 Spurs on the court put their defensive game face on when they see the red rocket checking into the game and know they have to work 10 x harder to defend and help on Bonner's man, so they do, to cover for Boner. Alas, Bonner getting bullshit positive defensive stats. He should thank the other 4 homies on the court busting their ass for that stat.

[DMC]

I've been laughed at til people were blue in the face when I would defend Bonner. He is an above-average post defender, elite 3-pt shooter, and a solid piece on a championship team if he's playing 10-15 minutes a night.:lmao

[Kuestmaster]

http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=101064&d=1355235011

[Drachen]

Look, no one seriously thinks that Bonner is this horrible player. He defends pretty well, he shoots very well, then he turns into the great red hole in the playoffs. THAT is why spurs fans can't stand him.

[Richie]

If Bonner could hit shots in the playoffs he would be an excellent player. Sadly, he can't, which is why he is so frustrating.

[Richie]

Career 42% 3 point shooter in regular season, 32% in the playoffs.

If Bonners could produce in the playoffs what he does in the regular season, maybe Duncan already has 5 rings.

[Obstructed_View]

Having said that, Bonner's post defense is better than it is acknowledged by us.

Not true. It's great for what he is, and for how he's been used recently, but not for a starter or the first big off the bench. It's what many of us have been saying about him forever. Bonner plays decent position, puts his hands up, never jumps and never fouls (on purpose). For a reasonably tall guy with short arms and low athletic ability, he's a great post defender. Being able to hide him on the floor before the opposing post player gets too much confidence and goes on a hot streak is the trick.

If he's not hitting his shots he deserves no time on the floor. If he were even an average post defender, he could eat up minutes at his position without scoring.

[CubanMustGo]

Look, no one seriously thinks that Bonner is this horrible player. He defends pretty well, he shoots very well, then he turns into the great red hole in the playoffs. THAT is why spurs fans can't stand him.


Career 42% 3 point shooter in regular season, 32% in the playoffs.

If Bonners could produce in the playoffs what he does in the regular season, maybe Duncan already has 5 rings.

These.

[maverick1948]

Look, no one seriously thinks that Bonner is this horrible player. He defends pretty well, he shoots very well, then he turns into the great red hole in the playoffs. THAT is why spurs fans can't stand him.

Then explain why we were 10-1 with Bonner playing and 0-3 when he didnt. 2011-2012 playoffs.

[Drz]

I think its the ginger effect, people assume hes worse than what he really is.
I suspect this too. I think more players take ill-advised jump shots against Bonner than they otherwise would. Just a hunch, I have no numbers to back this up.


I've been laughed at til people were blue in the face when I would defend Bonner. He is an above-average post defender, elite 3-pt shooter, and a solid piece on a championship team if he's playing 10-15 minutes a night.
The only part I disagree with is the "if he's playing 10-15 minutes a night." If he's so good, why should he play less? I don't follow that logic. The only reasoning I can think of is if you think his performance would degrade beyond 15 minutes, but there's no good reason to think it would. It doesn't happen with any other player.


That said Bonbon is a solid post defender. He did solid work on ZBo. But the problem is his team defense, and that's more important.
This appears to be the opposite of what everyone, including myself, thinks. He's an excellent team defender according to the numbers, it's his individual D that is suspect, due to his lack of athleticism. What makes you think otherwise?


With his limited minutes, teams can't abuse him in the post.
Where do you get this from? Perhaps we should run an NHL-style rotation and sub new guys in every 60 seconds so nobody ever gets abused in the post?


If he were even an average post defender, he could eat up minutes at his position without scoring.
I don't follow. The numbers very consistently and conclusively show he is an average post defender. Not just the linked numbers, I'm talking every set of metrics for virtually every season. The only thing that points to him not being a good defender is people's eyeballs.

[Brunodf]

Show me the stats from the playoffs

[Mugen]

:lmao

[Cry Havoc]

Bonner has been playing in garbage time against scrubs. Easy to inflate stats that way, especially when teams are typically down double digits against us and need threes rather than close up shots.

[Obstructed_View]

Where do you get this from?
From his lack of minutes.


Perhaps we should run an NHL-style rotation and sub new guys in every 60 seconds so nobody ever gets abused in the post?
The only guy who ever gets abused in the post is Bonner, and what the Spurs are doing now works fine. No need to change it. Bonner's back to being what he should have been when Robert Horry retired.



I don't follow. The numbers very consistently and conclusively show he is an average post defender. Not just the linked numbers, I'm talking every set of metrics for virtually every season. The only thing that points to him not being a good defender is people's eyeballs.

That would be the eyeballs of every player that Bonner checks when they light up with excitement at all the points they're going to score. If Bonner were a good defender, Pop would still be starting him. He's not. He never has been. He never will be. He tries hard to hold position, he tries hard to challenge shots, he tries hard to keep the other guy from scoring. The only thing he's above average at defensively is effort, which is a requirement to get any floor time at all.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Not true. It's great for what he is, and for how he's been used recently, but not for a starter or the first big off the bench. It's what many of us have been saying about him forever. Bonner plays decent position, puts his hands up, never jumps and never fouls (on purpose). For a reasonably tall guy with short arms and low athletic ability, he's a great post defender. Being able to hide him on the floor before the opposing post player gets too much confidence and goes on a hot streak is the trick.

If he's not hitting his shots he deserves no time on the floor. If he were even an average post defender, he could eat up minutes at his position without scoring.

actually, I completely agree with you. my only contention is that he is made out to be a worthless stiff by this forum..which .. he is definitely not.

[TDMVPDPOY]

bonner seriously is a better defender than tim duncan...does duncan defend the other teams best big man night in night out? NO

duncan has been exposed when he had no other big beside him, who was always defending the teams big man...while duncan was guarding some shithead to preserve his 6fouls....

do i need to tell you clowns most of duncans blocks come from a bonner/spliiter bigman already got his man covered and blocked, while duncan is blocking t hem from behind gets credited for the block

TOSB stealing stats from his own bigs who already got the job done...

[Dr. Robert Lee]

Look, no one seriously thinks that Bonner is this horrible player. He defends pretty well, he shoots very well, then he turns into the great red hole in the playoffs. THAT is why spurs fans can't stand him.
No, it's because a lot of our "fans" are racist pieces of shit.

[baseline bum]

I've been laughed at til people were blue in the face when I would defend Bonner. He is an above-average post defender, elite 3-pt shooter, and a solid piece on a championship team if he's playing 10-15 minutes a night.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[TheSkeptic]

No, it's because a lot of our "fans" are racist pieces of shit.

How ridiculous.

[Sean Cagney]

I've been laughed at til people were blue in the face when I would defend Bonner. He is an above-average post defender, elite 3-pt shooter, and a solid piece on a championship team if he's playing 10-15 minutes a night.

Yeah too F in bad he has not shot threes well in the playoffs and we have not won a damn thing since he became part of the rotation! What championship team do you speak of and what stats int he playoffs do you speak of Chazley? LOL Bonner fans, he sucks in the playoffs still, thats a fact. You guys can not tell me otherwise I can't stand dude because of that fact. He can shoot well all year long, but unlike Horry when it counts blahhhhh.

[Sean Cagney]

bonner seriously is a better defender than tim duncan...does duncan defend the other teams best big man night in night out? NO

duncan has been exposed when he had no other big beside him, who was always defending the teams big man...while duncan was guarding some shithead to preserve his 6fouls....

do i need to tell you clowns most of duncans blocks come from a bonner/spliiter bigman already got his man covered and blocked, while duncan is blocking t hem from behind gets credited for the block

TOSB stealing stats from his own bigs who already got the job done...

You post things on purpose most of the time in sarcasm, honestly I know that becuase no human is this stupid.
Show me the stats from the playoffs

They will never do that, he is garbage and they know it. He is good for what he is, some threes and nothing else alot of times.

[Dr. Robert Lee]

How ridiculous.
Not at all, actually. Most people on this forum have been shown to hate pasty, white, ginger people. It's sick, really. Bunch of fucking racist POS posters, tbh.

[ElNono]

Show me the stats from the playoffs

this

Bonner starts getting a multitude of DNP-CD and the Spurs suddenly improve substantially defensively... that's not eyeball, that's fact. coincidence or small sample size? :lol

[AussieFanKurt]

ill repeat what people have said:

CHOKER

[maverick1948]

Show me the stats from the playoffs

Since you are too lazy to click on the ESPN stats for Bonner here they are. Start at the bottom and read up. 10-1 with Bonner 0-3 without.



Wed 6/6


@

OKC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)


L 99-107 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320606025)
0
0-0
.000
0-0
.000
0-0
.000
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


Mon 6/4


vs

OKC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)


L 103-108 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320604024)
1
0-0
.000
0-0
.000
0-0
.000
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


Sat 6/2


@

OKC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)


L 103-109 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320602025)
2
0-1
.000
0-0
.000
0-0
.000
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


Thu 5/31


@

OKC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)


L 82-102 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320531025)
23
0-4
.000
0-3
.000
0-0
.000
4
1
0
0
4
1
0


Tue 5/29


vs

OKC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)


W 120-111 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320529024)
17
1-2
.500
1-2
.500
1-2
.500
2
1
0
0
2
0
4


Sun 5/27


vs

OKC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)


W 101-98 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320527024)
11
0-2
.000
0-2
.000
0-0
.000
3
2
0
0
1
1
0


Conference Quarterfinals
10.8
0.2-1.8
.111
0.2-1.4
.143
0.2-0.4
.500
1.8
0.8
0.0
0.0
1.4
0.4
0.8


Sun 5/20


@

LAC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lac/los-angeles-clippers)


W 102-99 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320520012)
16
2-4
.500
1-1
1.000
0-0
.000
2
2
0
0
4
0
5


Sat 5/19


@

LAC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lac/los-angeles-clippers)


W 96-86 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320519012)
10
1-4
.250
1-3
.333
0-0
.000
0
1
0
0
0
0
3


Thu 5/17


vs

LAC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lac/los-angeles-clippers)


W 105-88 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320517024)
13
1-3
.333
0-2
.000
0-0
.000
2
0
0
1
3
0
2


Tue 5/15


vs

LAC (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lac/los-angeles-clippers)


W 108-92 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320515024)
8
0-0
.000
0-0
.000
0-0
.000
3
0
1
0
1
0
0


Conference Semifinals
11.8
1.0-2.8
.364
0.5-1.5
.333
0.0-0.0
.000
1.8
0.8
0.3
0.3
2.0
0.0
2.5


Mon 5/7


@

UTAH (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/utah/utah-jazz)


W 87-81 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320507026)
20
1-4
.250
1-3
.333
2-3
.667
4
1
1
1
2
0
5


Sat 5/5


@

UTAH (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/utah/utah-jazz)


W 102-90 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320505026)
16
1-2
.500
1-2
.500
0-0
.000
1
0
2
0
4
0
3


Wed 5/2


vs

UTAH (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/utah/utah-jazz)


W 114-83 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320502024)
9
0-1
.000
0-1
.000
0-0
.000
0
0
0
0
1
0
0


Sun 4/29


vs

UTAH (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/utah/utah-jazz)


W 106-91 (http://www.spurstalk.com/nba/boxscore?id=320429024)
20
3-5
.600
3-4
.750
0-0
.000
4
1
0
0
2
1
9

[Darkwaters]

Matt Bonner for DPOY!

[Obstructed_View]

actually, I completely agree with you. my only contention is that he is made out to be a worthless stiff by this forum..which .. he is definitely not.

You sort of have to blame the guy that made him a starter and first big off the bench. In that role he was a worthless stiff. It was never Bonner's fault. He always gave it his best.

[Obstructed_View]

Since you are too lazy to click on the ESPN stats for Bonner here they are. Start at the bottom and read up. 10-1 with Bonner 0-3 without.

Bonner gets minutes in blowouts - check

Bonner's first round shooting - 42%
Bonner's second round shooting - 36%
Bonner's third round shooting - 11%

By the way, Bonner is 10-3. He was only benched for one game. Learn to read your own stats.

[TheSkeptic]

Not at all, actually. Most people on this forum have been shown to hate pasty, white, ginger people. It's sick, really. Bunch of fucking racist POS posters, tbh.

There are definitely racist and bigoted people on this site, but in Bonner's case it's not racism so much as fans being mad that Pop was playing him over a more talented player in Tiago.

Manu, Splitter, and Baynes are white and nobody has a problem with those guys. It's about results.

You can even see in this thread that for most people Bonner's okay in the regular season for 10-15 a game.

[Dr. Robert Lee]

There are definitely racist and bigoted people on this site, but in Bonner's case it's not racism so much as fans being mad that Pop was playing him over a more talented player in Tiago.

Manu, Splitter, and Baynes are white and nobody has a problem with those guys. It's about results.

You can even see in this thread that for most people Bonner's okay in the regular season for 10-15 a game.
They're white, but not ginger. For some reason it's okay for people to be racist against gingers on this site, tbh.

[Drz]

I'm wondering if Dr. Robert Lee has a point. Racism isn't the right term to use here, but it is possible that the Bonner-hate stems from him not looking like many posters on this site. I mean, he was revered in Toronto, and there's a lot less brown up there.

I don't really think it's true (the playoff explanation seems far more likely), but it's something to keep our eyes open to imo.

[Drz]

Bonner starts getting a multitude of DNP-CD and the Spurs suddenly improve substantially defensively... that's not eyeball, that's fact. coincidence or small sample size? :lol
Huh? Where do you get this "fact" from? It certainly wasn't last year's playoffs. Not trying to be a dick here, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

[Mel_13]

I'm wondering if Dr. Robert Lee has a point. Racism isn't the right term to use here, but it is possible that the Bonner-hate stems from him not looking like many posters on this site. I mean, he was revered in Toronto, and there's a lot less brown up there.

I don't really think it's true (the playoff explanation seems far more likely), but it's something to keep our eyes open to imo.

It's not that he doesn't resemble many posters on this site, it's that he doesn't resemble many NBA players.

The playoff explanation is the real reason. Bonner was an ST favorite during his early days with the Spurs when he was used primarily as an energy big off the bench. Somewhere in the archives you can find a Matt Bonner/Chuck Norris thread.

[ElNono]

Huh? Where do you get this "fact" from? It certainly wasn't last year's playoffs. Not trying to be a dick here, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

2009-2010 RS Defensive Efficiency:
#9 San Antonio Spurs - 102.0

2010-2011 RS Defensive Efficiency:
#11 San Antonio Spurs - 102.8

2011-2012 RS Defensive Efficiency:
#11 San Antonio Spurs - 100.6

this season so far:
#4 San Antonio Spurs - 98.4

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

[Obstructed_View]

The playoff explanation is the real reason. Bonner was an ST favorite during his early days with the Spurs when he was used primarily as an energy big off the bench. Somewhere in the archives you can find a Matt Bonner/Chuck Norris thread.

As is the "Robert Horry Replacement" reason and the "Starting all the games" reason and the "First big off the bench" reason.

I'm sure the "Why do we need Scola, we already have Bonner who can actually shoot" reason entered into it at one point.

[ElNono]

I'm fine with his current 11mpg... even in the playoffs. Not enough time to do major damage in case of choking.

[Drz]

2009-2010 RS Defensive Efficiency:
#9 San Antonio Spurs - 102.0

2010-2011 RS Defensive Efficiency:
#11 San Antonio Spurs - 102.8

2011-2012 RS Defensive Efficiency:
#11 San Antonio Spurs - 100.6

this season so far:
#4 San Antonio Spurs - 98.4

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff
Thank you, I definitely do appreciate the digging. :toast

But, that's far from convincing. To say the Spurs are better defensively without Bonner, you'd have to show stats of with Bonner vs. without Bonner. To show four seasons and say that ties to Bonner's minutes drop (avgs of 18, 22, 20, and 12, respectively) is a tenuous argument. There are far too many other variables.

This year, the Spurs have given up 0.6 points more per 100 possessions when Bonner is OFF the floor (http://www.82games.com/1213/12SAS11.HTM). Last year, the number was 0.8 points, again in Bonner's favor. Conclusive? Absolutely not, but it's a strong indicator that he's not a defensive liability.

[Mel_13]

I'm fine with his current 11mpg... even in the playoffs. Not enough time to do major damage in case of choking.

And he won't even get that much. His mpg number is inflated by averaging over 24 mpg in the five games that Duncan has rested. In the other 42 games, he has 7 DNP-CDs and averages barely 10 mpg, much of it in garbage time.

[hater]

:lmao whatever

let's just be thankful it seems Pop has seen the light in regards to the scrub that is Bonner

anything over 10 mins a game for Bonner is a forfeit of the season IMO

[Steve-O-Matic]

Those rankings/stats are completely misleading if you look at them in a vaccuum. Plenty of other names in there besides Bonner who are clearly below average defenders. But these rankings were based purely on opponent PER and thus rewards players who most often are only required to defend the opposing team's weakest offensive wing or big. I'd probably have the lowest opponent PER too if I was a PF who never had to guard the Blake Griffin's or Dirk Nowitzki's of the league and instead just had to worry about shutting down the Trevor Booker's.

[ElNono]

Thank you, I definitely do appreciate the digging. :toast

But, that's far from convincing. To say the Spurs are better defensively without Bonner, you'd have to show stats of with Bonner vs. without Bonner. To show four seasons and say that ties to Bonner's minutes drop (avgs of 18, 22, 20, and 12, respectively) is a tenuous argument. There are far too many other variables.

I agree there are far too many variables. I disagree it's mere coincidence.


This year, the Spurs have given up 0.6 points more per 100 possessions when Bonner is OFF the floor (http://www.82games.com/1213/12SAS11.HTM). Last year, the number was 0.8 points, again in Bonner's favor. Conclusive? Absolutely not, but it's a strong indicator that he's not a defensive liability.

Bonner never has been a bad regular season player. It's just not sustainable and doesn't translate to the playoffs.
I'm glad Pop is going a different route this time, and is seemingly paying dividends even in the regular season.

[jag]

They're white, but not ginger. For some reason it's okay for people to be racist against gingers on this site, tbh.

lol you ginger, brah?

[Dr. Robert Lee]

lol you ginger, brah?
I am blonde hair, blue-eyed.

[skulls138]

As I said Steve Kerr and Dan Ferry stunk it up for a few seasons and then finally found his range and we won champs. Bonner has the chance to do the same thing. We need Bonner to do well to win it all, Im telling ya. All kinds of great players choke, that doesnt mean its permanent.