will the pick and roll work come playofftime??

[LASToog36]

how well wil the pnr work against po defenses??
personally i think green leonard need to work on their penetrations spot up shots are iffy and percentages ddrop come po'... kinda worries leonard needs to learn a
to crossover or spin to the hoop green needs to penetrate and work on touch... parkers gonna be swarmed hopin fer the best but kinda worried in these aspects

[freetiago]

spurs can counter everything but a switch
parker and duncans 1v1 game arent really good anymore
every team thats switched pick and rolls has beat us
new york and clippers specifically
i dont know if clippers can keep it up because de andre jordan was having career games vs us but hes come down to earth

[ElNono]

I was going to start a thread about this about a week ago... Spurs are extremely reliant on the PnR... where do we go when it stops working?

[JingleJangleJingle]

I was going to start a thread about this about a week ago... Spurs are extremely reliant on the PnR... where do we go when it stops working?

iso neal...

[freetiago]

Pick and roll is the best and most simple basketball weapon
it cant really stop working
theres a counter to everything
only thing spurs have been exposed is when teams switch

Parker has looked like hes become better in isolation these past few games while Duncans been out
and Duncan has been scoring is post ups better this season
i remember the Denver and Utah game where they just consistently ran 4 down and he produced

Ginobili is the best guy at going 1v1 but hes too inconsistent and tends to go full turnobili more then not

[ElNono]

it cant really stop working

theres a counter to everything

wat?

[Tuddy]

If tiago gets aggressive when the smalls switch onto him we'll be fine especially cause the refs have stopped calling the ticky tac bullshit.

[therealtruth]

I don't have too much confidence in Parker and Ginobili's isolation skills the past few years otherwise we would have more rings by now. Teams have basically been asking the big 3 to beat them in the playoffs the last few years and they haven't been able to do it. I don't think we can still win just based on the individual excellence of the big 3. We need several guys playing well like the Mavs in '11 to win.

[xellos88330]

Don't use the pick. Just because a pick is set, doesn't mean it has to be used. If a team is expecting to switch, mix it up to throw them off. You could also run the big up to set the pick and run him back down once the defense commits to preparing for the switch. After that it could be an easy 1-2 pass layup/dunk or a 1-2 pass 3. The Spurs did this a lot against OKC last playoffs. The difference in it was that Tiago was playing small, Blair IS small, Diaw doesn't set the picks, and the shooters were missing WIDE open jumpers. The Spurs weren't rebounding well during the losses except for game 5.

[freetiago]

The pick and roll has a counter to everything the defense can throw at you
dur
when teams trap tony he can dish it to diaw/duncan who will be wide open at the mid range area and can make plays
if they play it straight up then tony can get to the rim or get wide open mid range shots
if they let the big help out on parker then duncan can pop out and hit the jumpshot or roll for open dunks
if they send help defense then spurs elite corner shooters are wide open (green got exposed on this in the WCF with his disappearing act)
if they switch then you have a 7 footer out on the perimeter which is usually a mismatch and a guard on Duncan which is another mismatch
the spurs havent found a way to counter the switch yet or really they just dont have good enough 1v1 players anymore

[ElNono]

if they play it straight up then tony can get to the rim or get wide open mid range shots

Teams like OKC will play it straight up, and Tony won't get to the rim nor get his shot off most of the time.

Looking at OKC (obviously they have some extra talent so it's easier for them to have variety), they play some PnR especially when Collison is out there, and when Martin plays with the second unit. They run pick & pop with Abaka. They run a weakside screen + curl for Durant (this one used all the time in crunch time). Then you have Westbrook chucking, which sometimes actually works for them.

They lack post up play, but so do the Spurs (at least when they play OKC, Tim has a very hard time with Perkins).

[ElNono]

Don't get me wrong, Pop is great drawing plays out of timeouts... but what we run 90% of the time out there is basically pick n roll...

[TDMVPDPOY]

PNR only works......when heroes on the team fkn start passing the ball

[spurraider21]

when thunder started switching our pick and roll our main success was manu beating his man off the dribble. thats going to have to happen

its also possible we impose our will by throwing tim and tiago out there instead of playing small to match them. that way they'll have 2 bigs out there, and if they switch, it will guarantee an easier one on one, rather than switching a perimeter player onto a perimeter player

[Brunodf]

when thunder started switching our pick and roll our main success was manu beating his man off the dribble. thats going to have to happen

its also possible we impose our will by throwing tim and tiago out there instead of playing small to match them. that way they'll have 2 bigs out there, and if they switch, it will guarantee an easier one on one, rather than switching a perimeter player onto a perimeter player

This. Against the Lakers OKC had to play Perkins/Ibaka in crunch time to match Gasol/DH, Thunderefs didn't look good with that pair...

[ElNono]

This. Against the Lakers OKC had to play Perkins/Ibaka in crunch time to match Gasol/DH, Thunderefs didn't look good with that pair...

To be fair that was an absolute aberration of a game from OKC... Durant 10-26 and Westbrook 6-22... and the Lakers defense is as bad as it gets, tbh...

[ElNono]

when thunder started switching our pick and roll our main success was manu beating his man off the dribble. thats going to have to happen

its also possible we impose our will by throwing tim and tiago out there instead of playing small to match them. that way they'll have 2 bigs out there, and if they switch, it will guarantee an easier one on one, rather than switching a perimeter player onto a perimeter player

I'm not against that, but the question is, what are we running on offense? Tiago is a pick and roll guy. Tim gets mostly nullified by Perkins in the post.

I agree about penetration, but if you can't finish around the rim, we're going to end up with Danny Green chucking up 3s... which is probably not the guy you want taking the shots...

[spurraider21]

I'm not against that, but the question is, what are we running on offense? Tiago is a pick and roll guy. Tim gets mostly nullified by Perkins in the post.

I agree about penetration, but if you can't finish around the rim, we're going to end up with Danny Green chucking up 3s... which is probably not the guy you want taking the shots...
honestly, if we want to beat the Thunder, we're going to have to have a couple of things going our way. Our perimeter shooters like Neal, Green, and Kawhi need to be able to knock down a decent clip of their shots. Any way you spin it, defenses are going to take away our big 3 and make the role players beat us.

And yeah, Tiago is a pick and roll guy, but if we force them to play Ibaka and Perkins together, we can probably bring out Perkins by running pick and roll with Tim. If they switch, Parker or Manu (whoever is running the play) will have one on one against Perkins... thats a matchup that is quite winnable. And if Ibaka helps on the roll, Tim has great interior passing skills and can set up Tiago.

Or if they choose NOT to adjust and have a perimeter player defending Tiago, he's going to have to do a lot of dirty work inside and make them pay on the glass. I would try to expose Perk on the pick and roll instead of posting him up... or if he's on the bench bring out Ibaka to take away his interior shotblocking

[ElNono]

The Spurs do have some stuff, that I don't think gets run enough. Like Kawhi cuts to the basket. It's funny too, because when we had RJ, we did have some plays specifically for him (ie: the alley oop play), but it hasn't happened with the new guys.

There's also some handoff plays to open Tony for his jumper. There's not a lot of variety, but it's probably because we have so many guys that need to be set up in order to score.

[ElNono]

And yeah, Tiago is a pick and roll guy, but if we force them to play Ibaka and Perkins together, we can probably bring out Perkins by running pick and roll with Tim. If they switch, Parker or Manu (whoever is running the play) will have one on one against Perkins... thats a matchup that is quite winnable. And if Ibaka helps on the roll, Tim has great interior passing skills and can set up Tiago.

This works when Westbrook guards Tony. Westbrook is simply poor at fighting through screens and poor defending the pick and roll. But with Sefolosha, they don't switch and they keep up.

It's just a very tough matchup.

[spurraider21]

This works when Westbrook guards Tony. Westbrook is simply poor at fighting through screens and poor defending the pick and roll. But with Sefolosha, they don't switch and they keep up.

It's just a very tough matchup.
Yep, it IS the Thunder we're talking about. Unless you have LeBron, there's no perfect scheme to beat them lol. Gna have to win 1 on 1 matchups and role players like Green are going to have to hit shots

[spurraider21]

The Spurs do have some stuff, that I don't think gets run enough. Like Kawhi cuts to the basket. It's funny too, because when we had RJ, we did have some plays specifically for him (ie: the alley oop play), but it hasn't happened with the new guys.

There's also some handoff plays to open Tony for his jumper. There's not a lot of variety, but it's probably because we have so many guys that need to be set up in order to score.
RJ would also open a LOT of game with a curl off a screen, catch and shoot top of the key. He was pretty money on that play too

[Brunodf]

This works when Westbrook guards Tony. Westbrook is simply poor at fighting through screens and poor defending the pick and roll. But with Sefolosha, they don't switch and they keep up.

It's just a very tough matchup.

Just run the PnR with Manu/Tiago

[ElNono]

RJ would also open a LOT of game with a curl off a screen, catch and shoot top of the key. He was pretty money on that play too

When Dice was around we also had a pick & pop that didn't involve a 3 pointer...

[BatManu20]

I was going to start a thread about this about a week ago... Spurs are extremely reliant on the PnR... where do we go when it stops working?

This is exactly what happened in the WCF last year after game 2. They put Sefalosha on Tony and switched on all pick-and-rolls and the Spurs went right back to giving Duncan in the post and it was a disaster. This team, right now, cannot beat the Thunder in a 7 game series imo. We need a player who can guard Durant (or at least make it uncomfortable for him, cause you can't really guard him). But someone who can effectively make every shot he takes a contested one. Cause at this point he's too good and will just score at will against us coming off screens and with the ball in his hands.

[ElNono]

Just run the PnR with Manu/Tiago

The fact that Tiago can't shoot for shit means his big doesn't need to step up that much on the pick. In other words, the big can simply wait out for Manu somewhat back until whoever is guarding Manu catches up. Tiago also gets easily intimidated by shot blockers. Finishing strong around the basket to avoid that is something he's still working on.

[timaios]

The Spurs scored 101, 120, 82, 103, 103 & 99 points vs the Thunder in 2012 playoffs.
Except for 1 game the offense was not the problem, defense was...

[Brunodf]

The fact that Tiago can't shoot for shit means his big doesn't need to step up that much on the pick. In other words, the big can simply wait out for Manu somewhat back until whoever is guarding Manu catches up. Tiago also gets easily intimidated by shot blockers. Finishing strong around the basket to avoid that is something he's still working on.

:wtf Splitter is top 3 in the NBA finishing around the rim(behind Lebron and Chandler).

[RD2191]

tiago can shoot the mid range jumper, i believe as well as ibaka. spurs have taken that part of his game away. some say he was playing overseas when he was making those but if he's wide open he should be able to knock em down

[ElNono]

:wtf Splitter is top 3 in the NBA finishing around the rim(behind Lebron and Chandler).

That's cool, but against shot blockers that weak ass layups he tosses sometimes don't work. He needs to get better at dunking that shit. He's actually been doing that more often lately.

Truth be told, Tiago played very little in last year's WCF, mostly because of the hack-a-tiago. And that's something else Tiago should get credit for, he improved his free throw shooting where it shouldn't be an issue this season.

[LASToog36]

kl needs more swag to his game dude looks like hes scared after posterizin someone... the hot shooting dont impress me as much because come playoffs defense gets alot tighter.... a crossover, a spin move somethin... i want him to be pushin to the rime drawing fouls as much as possible

[spurraider21]

If we have lineups with Tony, Manu, Tim AND Tiago the pick and roll will work JUST fine. That way the defense has no idea which guard will initiate the pick and roll or which big will be used. We can go based on matchups. Both Tony and Manu can shoot if the big doesn't hedge. If we can expose Perkins and avoid Sefolosha we should be ok

[RD2191]

at the end of the day i don't see us beating the thunder in a 7 game series simply because the refs will not allow it. they have such special treatment that its laughable at this point. ibaka and perk can pretty much get away with murder on the defensive end. and on the offensive end well, we know how that goes.

[spurraider21]

kl needs more swag to his game dude looks like hes scared after posterizin someone... the hot shooting dont impress me as much because come playoffs defense gets alot tighter.... a crossover, a spin move somethin... i want him to be pushin to the rime drawing fouls as much as possible
I agree. He needs to have a counter to aggressive closeouts. He's a pretty good free throw shooter (over 86% this season) so I wouldn't mind him throwing his body out there Manu style and using his length to his advantage. Otherwise he's just a not-as-good version of bruce bowen plus the occasional backdoor cuts

[Spursfanfromafar]

The Spurs dont' just run simple pick & rolls, but quite elaborate sets - where there are multiple picks - high/low/even elbow, with more than one big screening sometimes. Its pretty much a large set of motion offense plays, which sees a lot of action beyond the screener and the ball handler. The idea is to keep the motion going before getting the defense make a mistake and create either a mismatch or a high percentage shot.

So, it won't necessarily be a problem for the Spurs to be over-reliant on the P&R plays. They would only be worried if some of the role players - Green especially - develops a cold streak despite getting very good looks. Then I suppose the Spurs will go Four-Down or hope others can supplant the key scorers and then turn on the defense.

[Dr. Robert Lee]

PNR only works......when heroes on the team fkn start passing the ball
Strongly agree.

[Fireball]

The Spurs scored 101, 120, 82, 103, 103 & 99 points vs the Thunder in 2012 playoffs.
Except for 1 game the offense was not the problem, defense was...

I agree with this one ... our defense has improved and we do not have to stop a guy named James Harden ... if everybody is healthy we have better chances to beat the Thunder than last year, but it remains tough because they have the 2nd best player in the league ...

[Obstructed_View]

The thing that killed the Spurs last year was Sefolosha on Parker. If Parker can't get a clean pass off, the Spurs have problems because they then have to rely on jump shooters, who unfortunately didn't step up.

Being able (finally) to play Duncan and Splitter together is a big change. With Parker and Manu on the floor at the same time, the Thunder won't have the bodies to deal with it. That lineup will do damage defensively as well. The only real counter to it is Durant going off for 50 points, and if he can do that shooting contested shots, and if Westbrook is mature enough to allow it, then you tip your hat to them.

[therealtruth]

tiago can shoot the mid range jumper, i believe as well as ibaka. spurs have taken that part of his game away. some say he was playing overseas when he was making those but if he's wide open he should be able to knock em down

Exactly. Hopefully he brings that part of his game back. He doesn't have to take alot. Just enough to keep the defense honest. He's also surprising pretty good at putting the ball on the floor for a bigman. I remember him trying to cross up KG when we played the Celtics. Splitter certainly still has some upside if the Spurs stop viewing him just as unskilled effort and hustle big.

[therealtruth]

The thing that killed the Spurs last year was Sefolosha on Parker. If Parker can't get a clean pass off, the Spurs have problems because they then have to rely on jump shooters, who unfortunately didn't step up.

Being able (finally) to play Duncan and Splitter together is a big change. With Parker and Manu on the floor at the same time, the Thunder won't have the bodies to deal with it. That lineup will do damage defensively as well. The only real counter to it is Durant going off for 50 points, and if he can do that shooting contested shots, and if Westbrook is mature enough to allow it, then you tip your hat to them.

It's a little surprising Parker struggled with Sefalosha. He's played pretty good against Marion in the past who's long as well. It seems like Sefalosha has just enough quickness and length to bother Parker. If Parker can't be effective attacking that matchup the Spurs need to figure out a counter. Generally it doesn't make sense to attack a tough defender for most players.

[therealtruth]

The Spurs scored 101, 120, 82, 103, 103 & 99 points vs the Thunder in 2012 playoffs.
Except for 1 game the offense was not the problem, defense was...

I got the feeling the Spurs were spending so much effort on offense they didn't have anything left defensively. I think that's why a defense first mentality is so important.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i dont give a shit what parker and gary neal contributes on this team...when these 2 clowns start distributing the ball is when this team starts playing that basketball we all been waiting for, that is spurs championship basketball

if u guys love regular season champions, playoff fodder basketball, then continue cheering for these 2 heroes....

tonys can get his anytime he wants, he just needs to calm the fck down and get others involve b4 whatever is his, cause he will get his unless a big defender is on him....

[Brunodf]

This. Against the Lakers OKC had to play Perkins/Ibaka in crunch time to match Gasol/DH, Thunderefs didn't look good with that pair...

Playing big works:rolleyes

[look_at_g_shred]

Bump though!