Losing TJ Ford has been a bigger issue than Spurs Fans have realized

[MarHill]

I know Spurs fans have been clamoring for a big man next to Duncan for years. Hence the current Al Jefferson rumors.

However, I've been more concerned about the back-up PG issue. Finally last year they got TJ Ford and he was playing well until Baron Davis basically ended his career.

Patty Mills is a 6 ft shooting guard, Gary Neal is the same but 2 to 3 inches taller, and Nando de Colo is still a rookie. That's why Manu becomes even more important (if he can stay healthy) to be the de-facto point guard.

Somebody has to spell TP and run the offense. If there's a real weakness (besides rebounding) on the Spurs....it is that spot.

Hopefully, Manu come back soon and somebody from Mills, Neal, and De Colo can play adequate enough during the regular season to give TP some rest and have him ready for the playoffs.

The Spurs sure do miss TJ Ford and I do as well.

:toast

[BackHome]

I have to agree at this point we have to do a trade because you can almost count on this issue to cost us another ring.

[DejuanorwhatDude]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=a4wkacj

Salary dump for Orlando?

[Richie]

If Manu is healthy come playoff time this won't be a problem.

[KaiRMD1]

I've known this since the day we lost him thanks to Baron Davis (Karma caught up with him though). The necessary big that was needed just kept overshadowing that aspect though.

[Bruno]

First, stop overrating TJ Ford.

Second, Spurs have been dominant this season when Manu was on the court without Parker. In that setup, they are outscoring opponents by 12.9 points per 48 minutes. A lot of the backup PG issues will be solved with Manu back.

[superbigtime]

Patty Mills and G Neal are their best when playing with a real PG. And when Tony's out, Spurs don't have one.

[Texas_Ranger]

paying Nelson 8,6 a year for a backup role is a pretty bad idea. At least Jackson's contract expires this year.

[DesignatedT]

Everybody knows losing Ford was a blow and an unfortunate break. There have also been countless threads on the matter since it happened. What does discussing it constantly accomplish? We have what we have.

[Bruno]

Another stat to show how it's night and day for the backup PG with or without Manu.

Spurs without Parker but with Manu on the court (403 minutes): +108
Spurs without both Parker and Manu on the court (461 minutes): -33

[Sean Cagney]

If Manu is healthy come playoff time this won't be a problem.

LOL, healthy?

[spurs10]

Another stat to show how it's night and day for the backup PG with or without Manu.

Spurs without Parker but with Manu on the court (403 minutes): +108
Spurs without both Parker and Manu on the court (461 minutes): -33
Wow!

[cd98]

Problem is Manu is too fragile. The Spurs do need a better back up point guard. It's their biggest weakness.

[chapnis]

Spurs aren't going to win the championship without Manu anyway...

[Darkwaters]

First, stop overrating TJ Ford.

Second, Spurs have been dominant this season when Manu was on the court without Parker. In that setup, they are outscoring opponents by 12.9 points per 48 minutes. A lot of the backup PG issues will be solved with Manu back.

Bingo

[thOOdee]

a reliable bigman next to duncan has been an issue since robinson left. splitter has really helped filling in that hole, but duncans sun is setting. a all star caliber big is harder to come by then a competent point guard.

[timvp]

The overrating of TJ Ford is reaching Claxtonian proportions. He played all of 191 minutes for the Spurs. And, yes, while he seemed like a good change of pace from the other recent point guards who can't dribble and/or pass, he wasn't that special. He was turning the ball over at a league leading rate, his outside shot was broken and it's doubtful he would have made a productive long-term partner next to Manu Ginobili.

At the time of the TJ Ford signing, I thought it was a dumb move because he'd be a bad fit and because he was so injury prone. The bad fit part may have been a mistake on my part. I'll concede that even though the sample size was small and, IIRC, Ford never played with a completely healthy Big 3 so it's questionable how he would have fit as the season progressed. (And my concession ignores the fact that the Spurs did great without him up until the final four games of the WCF.) But Ford's proneness to injury still makes the signing look dumb. You have a team that is fragile to begin with and you go out and sign the most fragile player in the league? That never made any sense. The chances of Ford surviving the whole season were low from the very start.

In a perfect world where TJ Ford has a fully functional spinal cord, it would have be nice to have a backup point guard that is actually a point guard. But in reality, Ford was a long-shot to survive last season and it would have taken a miracle for him to make it into a second season.

[TrainOfThought5]

First, stop overrating TJ Ford.

Second, Spurs have been dominant this season when Manu was on the court without Parker. In that setup, they are outscoring opponents by 12.9 points per 48 minutes. A lot of the backup PG issues will be solved with Manu back.

its not an issue of overrating TJ ford. its an issue of getting competent play at the backup point guard spot. with the new Splitter Duncan pairing, backup PG has become the weakest link. and everyone keeps harping on about Ginobili as if hes a lock to be healthy and in rhythm in the playoffs. it seems as if hes missed half the games this season, and played at 100% in less than 25% of them. metrics are useless if the player isnt on the court, to be quite fucking honest...

[DapDaGenius]

Cant wait until they give Cory Joseph more time whenever he rejoins the Spurs. I know they want him to get as much game experience as possible though.

I like Cory a lot better than the other back up PGs. I thought they would push for Mills being the most constant back up PG after the whole Olympics hype.

[timvp]

Do the Spurs need to trade for a backup point guard? They might. Neal is broken (injury?). De Colo still needs a lot of work. Mills is a shooting guard. It's probably too late for Joseph. Ginobili can't do it.

It's not looking good right now. They should probably wait until the trade deadline to decide but as of right now, backup point guard is definitely a weakness even though there are a ton of options.

[Darius McCrary]

Why hasn't Cory been given a decent chance?

There's no way he is worse than Neal at running an offense, plus he can defend better.

[Raven]

if manu is healthy, that's not a problem in the PO, if he's not, the reserve pg ain't gonna save us..

[Strategic]

I think about all know that Manu can play back up point guard. Am I the only one that knows that he cannot do it with his sports jacket on? If the Spurs used Manu strickly as a back up point guard during the bulk of the game and then as a two guard with five minutes or less left on the clock then his fragility might not be a worry. The issue is that against the upper level competition he is often needed for his scoring punch off of the bench. I say send De Colo down, or packing, and live with Joseph's growing pains. Between Tony, Manu and CoJo why wouldn't it work?

[Richie]

LOL, healthy?

Well if he isn't healthy, we can't win a title anyway so the argument is moot.

[angelbelow]

TJ was great last year but I also felt like it was a bit of an anomaly. The solid structure and foundation of our coaching staff definitely had a big part in him playing so well (as he stated himself) but he was by no means Mr. Reliable. Especially from a health standpoint. With that said, would obviously love to still have him aboard but injuries happen.

[waisman]

PG Neal is only with SG Ginobili .
Neal dribble is but .

[benfti]

How much have we ran a line up with Mills and De Colo?

[Russ]

Patty Mills is a good clubhouse guy, but a nonfactor on the court.

Neal is a designated assassin. Like Vinny Microwave Johnson. A scoring solution when things stagnate. Not a backup PG.

TJ Ford was vastly underrated by most folks around here. He is truly missed.

That said, I see De Colo as the best option. He has a relaxed fluidity to his game that PGs need. He will assimilate. De Colo will absorb the game the more he's allowed to play.

And if it's a really big situation (playoffs) and you need a backup PG -- just go with Manu. :)

[Bruno]

its not an issue of overrating TJ ford. its an issue of getting competent play at the backup point guard spot. with the new Splitter Duncan pairing, backup PG has become the weakest link. and everyone keeps harping on about Ginobili as if hes a lock to be healthy and in rhythm in the playoffs. it seems as if hes missed half the games this season, and played at 100% in less than 25% of them. metrics are useless if the player isnt on the court, to be quite fucking honest...

Even with a good backup PG, Spurs won't go far in the playoffs if Manu isn't healthy. Looking at how Spurs are doing when he is healthy is damn relevant because it's the only scenario where Spurs have a shot at winning it all.

I think everybody can agree that Spurs don't have a good backup PG but this weakness hasn't really hurt them when Manu was healthy. It hasn't hurt them a lot is because Manu is helping a lot the PG with his playmaking skills and because, while not being great and stable, the backup PG spot hasn't been a disaster. Mills and De Colo both had their moments.

While a good solid backup PG would be welcomed, Spurs could also stick with what they have without significantly hurting their odds to win it all.

[spurraider21]

The overrating of TJ Ford is reaching Claxtonian proportions. He played all of 191 minutes for the Spurs. And, yes, while he seemed like a good change of pace from the other recent point guards who can't dribble and/or pass, he wasn't that special. He was turning the ball over at a league leading rate, his outside shot was broken and it's doubtful he would have made a productive long-term partner next to Manu Ginobili.

At the time of the TJ Ford signing, I thought it was a dumb move because he'd be a bad fit and because he was so injury prone. The bad fit part may have been a mistake on my part. I'll concede that even though the sample size was small and, IIRC, Ford never played with a completely healthy Big 3 so it's questionable how he would have fit as the season progressed. (And my concession ignores the fact that the Spurs did great without him up until the final four games of the WCF.) But Ford's proneness to injury still makes the signing look dumb. You have a team that is fragile to begin with and you go out and sign the most fragile player in the league? That never made any sense. The chances of Ford surviving the whole season were low from the very start.

In a perfect world where TJ Ford has a fully functional spinal cord, it would have be nice to have a backup point guard that is actually a point guard. But in reality, Ford was a long-shot to survive last season and it would have taken a miracle for him to make it into a second season.
Heh. I lol'ed at "Claxtonian." It's true that a lot of people here are putting him up on a pedestal but a lot of that just stems from our current situation where we haw 3 guys routinely fail at merely getting the offense into their sets, let alone running those sets.
I actually thought Ford was a solid pickup because he was pretty active on defense and was pretty quick, and in an ideal world he was a good stopgap after dealing Indiana George. While he was by no means an efficient outside shooter Ford did play with a true point guards mentality and was usually able to get sufficient dribble penetration to cater to our drive and kick offense. Took some pressure off Manu, allowing him to play more minutes since he would no longer carry the entire burden of creating for the second unit.
I'm pretty confident that CoJo will be able to step into the role by next season, or at the very least we will see improvement from Nando. But as far as this season goes, Manu will be counter on to shoulder the load once he's healthy

[chapnis]

Well if he isn't healthy, we can't win a title anyway so the argument is moot.

this so much.

[TD 21]

its not an issue of overrating TJ ford. its an issue of getting competent play at the backup point guard spot. with the new Splitter Duncan pairing, backup PG has become the weakest link. and everyone keeps harping on about Ginobili as if hes a lock to be healthy and in rhythm in the playoffs. it seems as if hes missed half the games this season, and played at 100% in less than 25% of them. metrics are useless if the player isnt on the court, to be quite fucking honest...

It's a more glaring need, what with Pop's mad scientist routine and Ginobili constantly being in and out, but backup SF is right there with it as far as being the weakest link goes. Sure, it would be nice to have someone to slot in ahead of Bonner/Blair (I don't see Baynes being a legit candidate this season), but the reality is, one is a fringe rotation player and the other is a non rotation player at this point and they're both competent in those roles.

Backup PG and SF are clear cut rotation spots though and they, along with Ginobili constantly being in and out and Pop's decision to essentially go to a 9 man rotation, have decimated what was the league's best depth. It's nice that they've been winning without Duncan and Ginobili, but the fact that it's taken Parker playing the part of 3rd best player in the world to do so (against weak competition, no less), is alarming. In the grand scheme of things, if at most this team can only trust 7 players, then they don't stand a chance at beating the Thunder.

[boutons_deux]

It was a small sample, but TJ looked great as a Spur.

If he would have played like that all season, yes losing him was huge.

[Uriel]

Another stat to show how it's night and day for the backup PG with or without Manu.

Spurs without Parker but with Manu on the court (403 minutes): +108
Spurs without both Parker and Manu on the court (461 minutes): -33
What's most amazing about this stat is that we've actually played more minutes without Manu than with him.

[therealtruth]

Manu was starting at the time we got TJ Ford so he ran the offense and got shots for the second unit. Tbh I think the only reason Manu isn't starting is Pop is afraid of him getting injured. But ultimately I think it makes more sense to start Manu and solve the backup PG issue with a real PG. It also helps conserve Manu and allow him to play of the ball more.

[Gagnrath]

It's a more glaring need, what with Pop's mad scientist routine and Ginobili constantly being in and out, but backup SF is right there with it as far as being the weakest link goes. Sure, it would be nice to have someone to slot in ahead of Bonner/Blair (I don't see Baynes being a legit candidate this season), but the reality is, one is a fringe rotation player and the other is a non rotation player at this point and they're both competent in those roles.

Backup PG and SF are clear cut rotation spots though and they, along with Ginobili constantly being in and out and Pop's decision to essentially go to a 9 man rotation, have decimated what was the league's best depth. It's nice that they've been winning without Duncan and Ginobili, but the fact that it's taken Parker playing the part of 3rd best player in the world to do so (against weak competition, no less), is alarming. In the grand scheme of things, if at most this team can only trust 7 players, then they don't stand a chance at beating the Thunder.


Small forward is pretty well covered honestly, Kawhi Leonard is good for extended starter minutes and Jackson even with his shooting woe due to the bad finger is a strong back-up. Add in boris can play the spot against bigger SF and green or Ginobili against smaller and everything is good. The spurs problem is that they have two to many guys that have pretty good sg skills in point guard bodies. That comes from low draft picks. They are also short a quality back-up power forward or center. Baynes needs a training camp and some nba seasoning; Bonner is himself with the questionable rebounding and suspect man on man inside defense and rim protection (very good team defense and mid range though), Boris I have simply come to believe is a head case, good enough, but completely on autopilot until forced to engage... you just really want someone that combines Boris with Bonners drive and will, or give Baynes 3 of Duncans years of experience With the personal they have they can cover but its very match-up dependent and they simply don't have a guy that can get put in no matter and be counted on to sustain play and eat minutes.

[TD 21]

Small forward is pretty well covered honestly

It is? They have one reliable SF and as solid as he is, he's not James, Durant or Anthony.


Kawhi Leonard is good for extended starter minutes

In theory, he is. In reality, the coach inexplicably refuses to utilize him in that capacity.


Jackson even with his shooting woe due to the bad finger is a strong back-up

Based on what, your nostalgia? The reality is, if his name were Jefferson/Finley/Udoka, etc. and he were having the exact same season, Spurs fans would would him off the team.

The bad finger isn't what caused his percentages to go down the toilet. He's been a sub 30% 3-point shooter for two seasons now . . . it just got obscured because he shot out of his mind in the WCF.


they simply don't have a guy that can get put in no matter and be counted on to sustain play and eat minutes.

I agree, but if the top three stay healthy (which I admit is doubtful, considering Splitter's injury history and how long he's went without one), then that's a lesser need than backup PG and SF, because those three can eat up the vast majority of the minutes and in many cases, they'll be able to get away with Jackson playing spot minutes at PF.


According to Wojnarowski, Dudley and Telfair are available. The Spurs should offer Jackson, Neal and a future 1st (the upcoming draft is projected to be weak and the Spurs pick will be a virtual 2nd) for Dudley and Telfair.

[spursmartyr]

The bad finger isn't what caused his percentages to go down the toilet. He's been a sub 30% 3-point shooter for two seasons now . . . it just got obscured because he shot out of his mind in the WCF.


According to Wojnarowski, Dudley and Telfair are available. The Spurs should offer Jackson, Neal and a future 1st (the upcoming draft is projected to be weak and the Spurs pick will be a virtual 2nd) for Dudley and Telfair.
Yeah, Robert Horry really sucked ass because he perennially shot <30% on threes in the regular season.



As for the trade... would take it if available, though I don't like Telfair, he surely couldn't be worse than Rafer Alston.

[Sean Cagney]

Well if he isn't healthy, we can't win a title anyway so the argument is moot.

Thats true. He was healthy last year though and we did not win a title, infact all of them will so a title is a longshot now but still not impossible. I hope they can make a run now for another title this year, I don't count on it nor expect it but if they can make a run it will be big surprise!

[DMC]

TJ Ford was and is a non-factor. The goal is a ring. He's not the catalyst.

[BackHome]

I don't think people are putting him on a pedestal but more of having a backup PG who can dribble and penetrate and dish which at this time we don't have.

People say that Manu will run PG duties in playoffs but who is going to guard the other teams PG..Neal...Mills...Nando.....Eeeeekkkk:(

[TD 21]

Yeah, Robert Horry really sucked ass because he perennially shot <30% on threes in the regular season.



As for the trade... would take it if available, though I don't like Telfair, he surely couldn't be worse than Rafer Alston.

Jackson is not Horry, though.

Telfair isn't really Spurs material, so I seriously doubt they'd want him. He's pretty much irrelevant in this anyway . . . this is about getting Dudley.