Parker>>>>Kobe

[KL2]

And it's not even close, you've got one guy leading his team to the best record in the NBA with guys like Splitter as the 2nd option meanwhile the other guy is chucking his life away surrounded by some of the best players in the NBA that can't even lead his team to a better record than a tanking Bl:lolzers team :lol


Btw, sorry for pointing out the obvious.

[jdiggy0424]

Parker's definitely playing some of the best ball of his career during this stretch.

[NRHector]

And it's not even close, you've got one guy leading his team to the best record in the NBA with guys like Splitter as the 2nd option meanwhile the other guy is chucking his life away surrounded by some of the best players in the NBA that can't even lead his team to a better record than a tanking Bl:lolzers team :lol


Btw, sorry for pointing out the obvious.

oh shit :lol

[ElNono]

Lakers should trade Dwight for Splitter, tbh

[HI-FI]

not even a huge TP fan but I agree with this thread. hopefully Parker can get a lifetime achievement/mercy MVP like Kobe received.

[capek]

http://truewest.com.au/wp-content/uploads/TRUTH-NEXT-EXIT.jpg
http://www.shrink4men.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/cluster-bombs.jpg

[HI-FI]

:crybut Kobe doesn't have enough help:cry
:crykobe needs another $100 million in talent around him and everything will be fine:cry

[Brunodf]

:clap

[baseline bum]

Even that wetback ElNono gotta recognize game.

[ElNono]

Even that wetback ElNono gotta recognize game.

It's different, tbh... Tony is doing exactly what's expected of him... Kirby is just doing his thing...

[DPG21920]

Even that wetback ElNono gotta recognize game.

WTF guy

[Bynumite]

Lots of ball fans compare Kobe to the GOAT, even Jordan thinks only Kobe deserves those comparisons.

But not spurfan, in their eyes Kobe is the gold standard. That's why they keep comparing the spurs best player and stars from other teams to Kobe :lol

[ElNono]

Lots of ball fans compare Kobe to the GOAT, even Jordan thinks only Kobe deserves those comparisons.

But not spurfan, in their eyes Kobe is the gold standard. That's why they keep comparing the spurs best player and stars from other teams to Kobe :lol

:lol you're just having a terrible year, tbh... probably worse than Kirby...

He at least bandwagons Barça, tbh :lol

[Suspect]

I'd love to see Tony Parker lead the lakers to above .500

[Obstructed_View]

:lol trading Parker for Dwight Howard.

[stretch]

LMAO spurs fans

this is about as retarded of an opinion as can be. sad thing is, 98% of spurfans are stupid enough to believe in this crap

[Clipper Nation]

not even a huge TP fan but I agree with this thread. hopefully Parker can get a lifetime achievement/mercy MVP like Kobe received.
If CP3 gets cheated out of another MVP because a lesser TOSB needs a pity award, it'll be a travesty, tbh....

[Killakobe81]

Tony is playing extremely well. But come on, that is crazy talk. PArker may not even the best player on his team when Duncan is healthy ... I know he slowed some before he got hurt, but I thought Duncan was the first quarter MVP of the Spurs tbh ...

[Killakobe81]

If CP3 gets cheated out of another MVP because a lesser TOSB needs a pity award, it'll be a travesty, tbh....

Paul aint winning MVP ... the games he missed wont help ... plus Lebron is playing at such a high level to beat him Paul would need a strong finish and HCA to beat James and I doubt he does either. My guess is once the CLips playoff position is locked down PAul will rest some the last few games ... they dont want him hurt in the playoffs like last season.

Again, the MVP award is shit so who cares?! PAul should shoot for a Finals MVP award that award has RARELY ever gone to the wrong player ...

[stretch]

Tony is playing extremely well. But come on, that is crazy talk. PArker may not even the best player on his team when Duncan is healthy ... I know he slowed some before he got hurt, but I thought Duncan was the first quarter MVP of the Spurs tbh ...

:tu

Timmy always has been the #1 reason by far for the success of the Spurs for every single season he has been there. Take him off the team, and they maybe get a low playoff seed, at best. He gives them so much confidence and leadership its insane. Not to mention a consistent paint presence on both ends of the floor.

TP would be fortunate to lead them to anything better than a 7th seed, if you completely took Timmy off the team altogether.

[Clipper Nation]

Paul aint winning MVP ... the games he missed wont help ...
The games he missed were mostly atrocious losses to lottery teams, and then once he came back at full strength, the Clippers whooped the 2-seed in the East at their house...

I'm okay with LeBron getting another MVP over CP3, but nobody else has a case, definitely not TP...

[Killakobe81]

The games he missed were mostly atrocious losses to lottery teams, and then once he came back at full strength, the Clippers whooped the 2-seed in the East at their house...

I'm okay with LeBron getting another MVP over CP3, but nobody else has a case, definitely not TP...

Durant and Melo are also worthy candidates and I dont think you can keep PArker out of the top 5 candidates tbh ...


My list:

1. Lebron



2. Durant

3. Paul
4. Melo
5. PArker/Duncan

[Pelicans78]

Lakers should trade Dwight for Splitter, tbh

Splitter has been awesome this year.

[Pelicans78]

Right now my MVP list is this:

1. Durant
2. Lebron (catching up)
3. Parker
4. CP3 (injuries knocked him down)

[JamStone]

The only worthy MVP candidates this season so far are LeBron and Durant imo. Either would be a fine choice. I'd give Durant a very slight edge right now not just because of his overall numbers, but because his team currently has a better record, Durant is at the holy grail of shooting with 50%/40%/90%, and he's doing it despite playing with a Kobe type chucker in Westbrook.

[td4mvp2k]

TP>CP3>R. Anderson>Kobe

[stretch]

Durant and Melo are also worthy candidates and I dont think you can keep PArker out of the top 5 candidates tbh ...

5. PArker/Duncan

Parker/Duncan is more fitting than just Parker alone. No shot in hell does Parker have to win a championship without Timmy.

[Captivus]

Lakers should trade Dwight for Splitter, tbh

HAHA!

http://www.brandsoftheworld.com/sites/default/files/styles/logo-original-577x577/public/0003/4583/brand.gif

[DAF86]

:tu

Timmy always has been the #1 reason by far for the success of the Spurs for every single season he has been there. Take him off the team, and they maybe get a low playoff seed, at best. He gives them so much confidence and leadership its insane. Not to mention a consistent paint presence on both ends of the floor.

TP would be fortunate to lead them to anything better than a 7th seed, if you completely took Timmy off the team altogether.

Great, now tell us about how players like Duncan make players like Parker look better than what they really are although players like Parker always post better numbers when they don't have to share the ball with players like Duncan.

[stretch]

Great, now tell us about how players like Duncan make players like Parker look better than what they really are although players like Parker always post better numbers when they don't have to share the ball with players like Duncan.

Posting better numbers and team success are not the same thing.

If you think you could simply replace Duncan with some mediocre center like Chris Kaman and Parker is going to lead them to be a legit title contender, you are outside your mind.

lol manu > dirk

[DAF86]

Posting better numbers and team success are not the same thing.

If you think you could simply replace Duncan with some mediocre center like Chris Kaman and Parker is going to lead them to be a legit title contender, you are outside your mind.

lol manu > dirk

I didn't say anything about team success, I talked about players' production. In the past I have heard from guys like you that superstars make the game easier for fellow stars in the same team, therefore making them look better than what they really are, yet everytime I see a superstar go down the 2nd option always seems to play better. Odd.

lol post deleter

[Cry Havoc]

The only worthy MVP candidates this season so far are LeBron and Durant imo. Either would be a fine choice. I'd give Durant a very slight edge right now not just because of his overall numbers, but because his team currently has a better record, Durant is at the holy grail of shooting with 50%/40%/90%, and he's doing it despite playing with a Kobe type chucker in Westbrook.

Wat.

LeBron is going off right now. Shooting over 56% on the season and 40%+ from 3. In fact, LeBron is .06% behind Durant in 3%, this coming from a guy who's supposedly a subpar shooter vs an elite marksman. You can have your free throws, I'll take the guy who's unstoppable AND plays all-star level defense. LeBron is even up in PER which is highly biased toward offensive stats. LeBron is averaging .6 rebounds AND 2.5 assists more despite playing at a slower pace (102 ppg vs 106).

I don't even think the MVP is particularly close at this point. It's LeBron by a country mile, then Durant, then another mile or so back to Parker.

[JamStone]

If you noticed, the shooting percentages weren't my only arguments. I also said better record and putting up the numbers he does with a chucker teammate. LeBron is the best basketball player in the planet and is so easily. But I do think Durant's "value" to the Thunder might be slightly greater because I think they'd be an average team or worse without Durant and with Westbrook the clear and undisputed franchise player on the team. I would have no qualms at all if LeBron wins another MVP. He is and would be very deserving. I only said that I'd slightly lean towards Durant right now. To me, it's close enough to be a toss up.

And I'd put Carmelo ahead of Tony Parker. I think as it is every year, the Spurs are doing what they are expected to do. The Knicks were viewed as possibly a good team but also a wildcard because they are also a very volatile and unpredictable team. To be where they are in the standings right now I think exceeds at least quite a few people's expectations, and I do give a lot of credit to Melo for their team success this season.

[snickles]

:tu

Timmy always has been the #1 reason by far for the success of the Spurs for every single season he has been there. Take him off the team, and they maybe get a low playoff seed, at best. He gives them so much confidence and leadership its insane. Not to mention a consistent paint presence on both ends of the floor.

TP would be fortunate to lead them to anything better than a 7th seed, if you completely took Timmy off the team altogether.


while i agree that its a stretch to say that parker leads the spurs to a title without duncan, you obviously havent seen what parker and the spurs have done since tim (and manu) went down with injuries. to completely dismiss parkers contributions is a sign of either ignorance or pushing an agenda.

probably a little of both.

[snickles]

And I'd put Carmelo ahead of Tony Parker. I think as it is every year, the Spurs are doing what they are expected to do. The Knicks were viewed as possibly a good team but also a wildcard because they are also a very volatile and unpredictable team. To be where they are in the standings right now I think exceeds at least quite a few people's expectations, and I do give a lot of credit to Melo for their team success this season.

i'd probably put carmelo and parker as a 3a and 3b IF paker keeps it up the rest of the season.

but seriously? so the spurs were the pre-season favorite to have the best record in the league? parker was expected to to be a 20/10 guy and keep the team afloat when the injury bug quote? i'd be shocked if you could find many spurs fans who thought we'd be where we are. i just dont see how your logic holds any water.

[JamStone]

while i agree that its a stretch to say that parker leads the spurs to a title without duncan, you obviously havent seen what parker and the spurs have done since tim (and manu) went down with injuries. to completely dismiss parkers contributions is a sign of either ignorance or pushing an agenda.

probably a little of both.

While I do believe Parker has been great recently, in the absence of Duncan and Ginobili, you should also consider the competition in that stretch. The only teams with an above .500 record in that stretch were Brooklyn and Atlanta. And 5 of the 8 teams they played without Duncan were bottom 10 teams in the league, teams like Charlotte and Phoenix and Minnesota and Detroit and New Orleans. With or without Duncan, Parker probably puts up really good performances against those teams.

I think the case would be stronger for Parker if these stretch of games included at least a couple great performances in wins against a couple of the elite teams in the league. His performances against teams like the Clippers, OKC, and the Knicks on the season are much more underwhelming.

[JamStone]

i'd probably put carmelo and parker as a 3a and 3b IF paker keeps it up the rest of the season.

but seriously? so the spurs were the pre-season favorite to have the best record in the league? parker was expected to to be a 20/10 guy and keep the team afloat when the injury bug quote? i'd be shocked if you could find many spurs fans who thought we'd be where we are. i just dont see how your logic holds any water.

If Parker was a 20/10 guy on the entire season, he'd have a stronger case. Again, when the injury bug hit the Spurs recently, they started a stretch of games against some of the worst teams in the league.

[JamStone]

6 games against OKC, Clippers, and Knicks.

Parker: 12.2 PPG, 8.0 APG, 39.7% FG

Spurs 1-5 in those 6 games

[snickles]

I think the case would be stronger for Parker if these stretch of games included at least a couple great performances in wins against a couple of the elite teams in the league. His performances against teams like the Clippers, OKC, and the Knicks on the season are much more underwhelming.

ok i'll give you that. not a big fan of cherrypicking stats, but that is a good point. if we're picking and choosing though, i could counter that 5 of those games were in the 1st month of the season, where he was inconsistent as hell.

not to mention the fact, out of all the "favorites", only NY has a particularly dominating winning percentage against the rest-of-the-best.


If Parker was a 20/10 guy on the entire season, he'd have a stronger case. Again, when the injury bug hit the Spurs recently, they started a stretch of games against some of the worst teams in the league.

ok so we want to talk whole season now? 20.7 and 7.7 on 54% shooting. want to know how many other guys are putting up 20+ and 7+? 1, westbrick. shooting 10% lower from the field and +1 TP/g.

thats including those horrible games you listed.

and like bill parcells used to say, "you play who's on the schedule" and "you are what your record says you are". the spurs are still playing NBA teams, with at least some level of NBA talent. hell, look at your pistons. who thought they would be the ones to stop the run?

[stretch]

I didn't say anything about team success, I talked about players' production. In the past I have heard from guys like you that superstars make the game easier for fellow stars in the same team, therefore making them look better than what they really are, yet everytime I see a superstar go down the 2nd option always seems to play better. Odd.

lol post deleter

lol individual stats > team success

lol manu > dirk

lol daf logic

[stretch]

while i agree that its a stretch to say that parker leads the spurs to a title without duncan, you obviously havent seen what parker and the spurs have done since tim (and manu) went down with injuries. to completely dismiss parkers contributions is a sign of either ignorance or pushing an agenda.

probably a little of both.

winning a few games without your centerpiece doesn't mean a whole lot. stuff like that happens all the time.

do it for a whole season, and that's impressive. but we all know that won't happen.

[snickles]

winning a few games without your centerpiece doesn't mean a whole lot. stuff like that happens all the time.

do it for a whole season, and that's impressive. but we all know that won't happen.

yeah, because half the season is gone...love the build in un-winnable argument there.

and yeah, team win without their main guy. you could have busted out boston as an example. but your saying parkers numbers arent impressive? even though theres only 1 other player scoring 20+ and assisting 7+ on the season? so exactly what IS impressive to you then? 15 and 6 on 41% shooting?

[TDMVPDPOY]

:tu

Timmy always has been the #1 reason by far for the success of the Spurs for every single season he has been there. Take him off the team, and they maybe get a low playoff seed, at best. He gives them so much confidence and leadership its insane. Not to mention a consistent paint presence on both ends of the floor.

TP would be fortunate to lead them to anything better than a 7th seed, if you completely took Timmy off the team altogether.

truth bombs...this is what the tp cocksuckers fail to see....they think its his team, but in reality its not cause u remove duncan from the lineup...spurs are nothing more that fodder...tp has been nothing more than a coat riding clown living on someone elses reputation

[Cry Havoc]

If you noticed, the shooting percentages weren't my only arguments. I also said better record and putting up the numbers he does with a chucker teammate. LeBron is the best basketball player in the planet and is so easily. But I do think Durant's "value" to the Thunder might be slightly greater because I think they'd be an average team or worse without Durant and with Westbrook the clear and undisputed franchise player on the team. I would have no qualms at all if LeBron wins another MVP. He is and would be very deserving. I only said that I'd slightly lean towards Durant right now. To me, it's close enough to be a toss up.

The Heat without LeBron would be a horrible team. Almost certainly in the lottery.

[Cry Havoc]

truth bombs...this is what the tp cocksuckers fail to see....they think its his team, but in reality its not cause u remove duncan from the lineup...spurs are nothing more that fodder...tp has been nothing more than a coat riding clown living on someone elses reputation

God your troll schtick is old. Get some new material.

[TDMVPDPOY]

God your troll schtick is old. Get some new material.

tell me whose production increases in the playoffs?...whose production increase pass regular season stats, career avgs?

coasting duncan with the same touches he gets in the playoffs posts stats equal to prime duncan, but you have ball hogs on the team u dont see it who go away from him every time he has a hot hand

that tp fella and his fans, love to gloat about beating players who are injured or just have no business playing against him...but when he finally meets his match, he calls them out and disappears against them,

[Cry Havoc]

tell me whose production increases in the playoffs?...whose production increase pass regular season stats, career avgs?

coasting duncan with the same touches he gets in the playoffs posts stats equal to prime duncan, but you have ball hogs on the team u dont see it who go away from him every time he has a hot hand

that tp fella and his fans, love to gloat about beating players who are injured or just have no business playing against him...but when he finally meets his match, he calls them out and disappears against them,


God your troll schtick is old. Get some new material.

[JamStone]

The Heat without LeBron would be a horrible team. Almost certainly in the lottery.

I don't know if you are serious or not, but if the Heat were without LeBron, they'd fill his spot with either Shane Battier, Mike Miller, or Rashard Lewis and would still have Wade, Bosh, and Ray Allen as primary scorers. Without Durant, the Thunder would either slide Sefolosha to the 3 with Kevin Martin starting and/or fill those SF minutes with guys like DeAndre Liggins and rookie Perry Jones with Russell Westbrook going 2005 Kobe chucking up 30+ shots a game.

I think your comment is not only wrong but completely disingenuous.

[Brazil]

6 games against OKC, Clippers, and Knicks.

Parker: 12.2 PPG, 8.0 APG, 39.7% FG

Spurs 1-5 in those 6 games

To be fair iirc most of these games were at the beginning of the season and tp had a bad start. Duncan was carrying the team. Tp is picking up since a couple of months now.

[JamStone]

To be fair iirc most of these games were at the beginning of the season and tp had a bad start. Duncan was carrying the team. Tp is picking up since a couple of months now.

Yeah but it cuts both ways. The Spurs haven't played any really good teams recently. So is Parker's recent play a product of him just picking up his play or a product of the competition they've been playing? I don't know the answer for sure. But it would be more telling if Parker's recent tear included some performances against elite and/or really good defensive teams.

[TDMVPDPOY]

To be fair iirc most of these games were at the beginning of the season and tp had a bad start. Duncan was carrying the team. Tp is picking up since a couple of months now.

excuses is all i see

how come the same cant be said about those teams who have gone through roster changes?

yeh keep on sugar coating clown

[Brazil]

Yeah but it cuts both ways. The Spurs haven't played any really good teams recently. So is Parker's recent play a product of him just picking up his play or a product of the competition they've been playing? I don't know the answer for sure. But it would be more telling if Parker's recent tear included some performances against elite and/or really good defensive teams.

I don't disagree with that tbh I was just pointed out that this stretch of tough games was at the beginning of the season and tp had a very slow start. Recently he is putting some great performances in less than 35 mn a game. Moreover it's not like he never had very good games against elite teams before.

[Cry Havoc]

I don't know if you are serious or not, but if the Heat were without LeBron, they'd fill his spot with either Shane Battier, Mike Miller, or Rashard Lewis and would still have Wade, Bosh, and Ray Allen as primary scorers. Without Durant, the Thunder would either slide Sefolosha to the 3 with Kevin Martin starting and/or fill those SF minutes with guys like DeAndre Liggins and rookie Perry Jones with Russell Westbrook going 2005 Kobe chucking up 30+ shots a game.

I think your comment is not only wrong but completely disingenuous.

We can play that game. Without LeBron, the Heat would be without their primary facilitator and best defender by a wide margin. The Thunder without KD, you make it sound like they're a bunch of scrubs, when in reality they'd have a starting lineup of Westbrook/Martin/Sef/Perkins/Ibaka. That's a solid team that plays good defense. Wade is clearly better than anyone on that 5 but Ibaka is a far better player than Bosh, and Martin/Allen would be at best for the Heat a wash. The Heat would be effective on offense but they would not be nearly as effective or flexible on defense.

You're talking about taking the best offensive and defensive player on a team vs. the best offensive and a decent defender. Pretty straight-forward difference if you ask me.

[JamStone]

We can play that game. Without LeBron, the Heat would be without their primary facilitator and best defender by a wide margin. The Thunder without KD, you make it sound like they're a bunch of scrubs, when in reality they'd have a starting lineup of Westbrook/Martin/Sef/Perkins/Ibaka. That's a solid team that plays good defense. Wade is clearly better than anyone on that 5 but Ibaka is a far better player than Bosh, and Martin/Allen would be at best for the Heat a wash. The Heat would be effective on offense but they would not be nearly as effective or flexible on defense.

You're talking about taking the best offensive and defensive player on a team vs. the best offensive and a decent defender. Pretty straight-forward difference if you ask me.

Wait, so you were serious?

Without LeBron:

Mario Chalmers / Norris Cole
Dwyane Wade / Ray Allen
Shane Battier / Mike Miller
Udonis Haslem / Rashard Lewis
Chris Bosh / Chris Anderson / Joel Anthony

You said the Heat would be horrible and would almost certainly be a lottery team... in the Eastern Conference? They still have three all star caliber scorers as primary options. They still have plenty of depth. They actually still have defensive flexibility thanks to Battier, Haslem, Bosh, and Miller being able to defend multiple positions. They still have a lot of three point shooting. And they still have front court depth. Whether they're worse than the Thunder without Durant is one thing, but you said they'd be horrible and almost certainly a lottery team... in the Eastern Conference? That's why your comment was disingenuous. A conference who's #6 playoff seed is currently occupied by a grossly mediocre Atlanta Hawks team, but a team led Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Battier/Haslem/Miller would be in the lottery?

Without Durant:

Russell Westbrook / Reggie Jackson / Eric Maynor
Kevin Martin / Jeremy Lamb
Thabo Sefolosha / DeAndre Liggins / Perry Jones
Serge Ibaka / Nick Collison
Kendrick Perkins / Hasheem Thabeet

I say they're worse off without Durant than the Heat without LeBron, especially when you look at the depth of each team. Without Durant, they need to start relying on guys like Liggins and rookies Lamb and Jones who both haven't really played so we don't know what we can expect from them. And without Durant, Westbrook basically can shoot every time he touches the ball with no one to put him in check or take the ball away from him when he bricks like 5 straight shots. Yeah, we can go back and forth, but I really disagree with your assertion. And what made your assertion so ridiculous was your claim that the Heat would be horrible and be in the lottery without LeBron. I mean, come on. In the Eastern Conference?

And since when was Serge Ibaka far better than Bosh? Bosh might have been overrated earlier in his career, but he's still a guy who can be a #1 option on offense and is still solid all around in other areas of the game. Ibaka will never be more than a kickout secondary option jumpshooter or alley oop finisher or an offensive rebounder on offense.

Anyway, you can believe what you want. I obviously disagree with it. I just didn't think you were serious with that comment...

[maverick1948]

If CP3 gets cheated out of another MVP because a lesser TOSB needs a pity award, it'll be a travesty, tbh....

CP3 missing too many games to be considered for MVP.

[stretch]

yeah, because half the season is gone...love the build in un-winnable argument there.

and yeah, team win without their main guy. you could have busted out boston as an example. but your saying parkers numbers arent impressive? even though theres only 1 other player scoring 20+ and assisting 7+ on the season? so exactly what IS impressive to you then? 15 and 6 on 41% shooting?

lol @ Rondo being the main guy.

He might make the most headlines, but everyone knows that Boston is still all about the Pierce/Garnett combo.

[stretch]

but Ibaka is a far better player than Bosh

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[hater]

Spursfan overrating yet another player.

Regular season wins don't mean shit. We know damn well Parker is gonna need Duncan and a near allstar Kawhi to sniff the WCF

but as to the thread title. no shit

[stretch]

And since when was Serge Ibaka far better than Bosh? Bosh might have been overrated earlier in his career, but he's still a guy who can be a #1 option on offense and is still solid all around in other areas of the game. Ibaka will never be more than a kickout secondary option jumpshooter or alley oop finisher or an offensive rebounder on offense.

Not to mention Bosh led some crappy Raptors teams to the playoffs as the #1 option.

Replace Bosh with Ibaka on those teams, and they would be fortunate to win 20.

I knew Cry Havoc could talk out of his ass, but it still never ceases to amaze me, the stupid shit that he posts.

[Cry Havoc]

Wait, so you were serious?

Without LeBron:

Mario Chalmers / Norris Cole
Dwyane Wade / Ray Allen
Shane Battier / Mike Miller
Udonis Haslem / Rashard Lewis
Chris Bosh / Chris Anderson / Joel Anthony

You said the Heat would be horrible and would almost certainly be a lottery team... in the Eastern Conference?

Bah, that's true. The East is so bad, the Heat would probably make the playoffs. Put the Thunder in the East without Durant though, and I think they still make the playoffs as well.

But point taken, the Heat wouldn't be a lottery team in the East without LeBron.


Without Durant:

Russell Westbrook / Reggie Jackson / Eric Maynor
Kevin Martin / Jeremy Lamb
Thabo Sefolosha / DeAndre Liggins / Perry Jones
Serge Ibaka / Nick Collison
Kendrick Perkins / Hasheem Thabeet

I say they're worse off without Durant than the Heat without LeBron, especially when you look at the depth of each team. Without Durant, they need to start relying on guys like Liggins and rookies Lamb and Jones who both haven't really played so we don't know what we can expect from them. And without Durant, Westbrook basically can shoot every time he touches the ball with no one to put him in check or take the ball away from him when he bricks like 5 straight shots. Yeah, we can go back and forth, but I really disagree with your assertion. And what made your assertion so ridiculous was your claim that the Heat would be horrible and be in the lottery without LeBron. I mean, come on. In the Eastern Conference?

And since when was Serge Ibaka far better than Bosh? Bosh might have been overrated earlier in his career, but he's still a guy who can be a #1 option on offense and is still solid all around in other areas of the game. Ibaka will never be more than a kickout secondary option jumpshooter or alley oop finisher or an offensive rebounder on offense.

Anyway, you can believe what you want. I obviously disagree with it. I just didn't think you were serious with that comment...

You'd rather have Chris Bosh on your team than Serge Ibaka? Bosh is a good offensive player but he's nowhere near the caliber of defender that Ibaka is. The Heat sans LeBron would certainly score but their defense would take a big hit. The Thunder without Durant would still be able to play pretty respectable defense at worst.

FWIW, I should just retract the lottery statement. I think both teams would be able to be a 6-8 seed even out West, but probably no higher than that. Even so, Durant provides a lot of offense to a team that's excellent on D. He fits, but there's no way you can argue that Durant compares to LeBron on D, and since they're both pretty equal on offense, the MVP should be pretty clear. If Durant wins, it's going to be a combination of LeBron having 3 MVPs in a row and the fact that defense is severely undervalued when it comes to MVP voting.

It's easy to point to OKC's flaws in their roster without KD, but it's completely biased to do so without recognizing what LeBron brings to the Heat on both sides of the ball. Even today, even Pistons fans don't give defense the credit it deserves.

[monosylab1k]

ROFL so a Wade/Bosh/Allen team is in the lottery in the same Eastern Conference where the Bucks are a playoff team, meanwhile Serge Ibaka suddenly has the ability to be a franchise player. :lmao

[monosylab1k]

You know your knowledge of the game is limited if you really think Serge Ibaka is a quality defender. Blocks aren't defense. You'd think a fan of a team with Tim Duncan would know that.

[TDMVPDPOY]

you remove lebron from the heat, that heat team is still better than anything wade led heat ever had...probably as good as the 06 heat, to say they wont be in the playoffs is plain ignorance

[monosylab1k]

Hollinger on Ibaka's "defense" -


There's a lot more to defense than blocking shots, people. Ibaka finished second in the Defensive Player of the Year voting based on his phenomenal shot-blocking total, but the Finals really underscored how far he has to go to be an elite defender overall. Ibaka's shot-blocking skill is second to none -- his 5.38 blocks per 40 minutes led the league comfortably -- but he still struggles mightily against face-up 4s and in the finer elements of help defense.
Overall, then, he was merely decent defensively. The Thunder were better with him on the court but not dramatically so (2.8 points per 100 possessions), while Synergy Stats rated him in the middle of the pack. The Thunder didn't act like he was a vital defensive cog, either, often opting to keep Kendrick Perkins or Nick Collison on the court instead of him.

lol spurfans "he curbstomped us in the WCF so obviously he's the GOAT :cry"

[Cry Havoc]

ROFL so a Wade/Bosh/Allen team is in the lottery in the same Eastern Conference where the Bucks are a playoff team, meanwhile Serge Ibaka suddenly has the ability to be a franchise player. :lmao

Nice strawman. I never said Ibaka was a franchise player. I said he was better on defense than Bosh.

[DAF86]

lol individual stats > team success

lol manu > dirk

lol daf logic

lol never said any of those things

lol stretch comprehensive skills

[21_Dickings]

I've learned over the years to not drink Frenchie's Kool-aid, insofar as buying into him as a player who can will a team to a playoff victory over another contender. Parker is a very good player, sometimes great, but is consistent almost to a fault. Other than the '09 first round and game 6 against the Thunder, Parker has never erupted in a playoff series much beyond his career scoring average. For the Spurs to have any chance at winning the title, he needs to play like he did in last year's game 6 for the whole series, not just one or two games. 20-22 point-per-game won't be enough to beat the Thunder or Heat.

That said, it's somewhat of an unfair burden on him. Point guards shouldn't have to be tasked with leading their team in scoring. It's not supposed to be their job. But since the Spurs lack another 18-20 ppg perimeter scorer (Manu is no longer a threat to average 20 points-per-game over a playoff series. And if he does so, it'll be one of those "30 points one game/10 points the next" affairs), he really has no choice.

[Cry Havoc]

You know your knowledge of the game is limited if you really think Serge Ibaka is a quality defender. Blocks aren't defense. You'd think a fan of a team with Tim Duncan would know that.

Ibaka's a good defender. He's got a long way to go, but he's still a good defender.

[stretch]

I said he was better on defense than Bosh.


Ibaka is a far better player than Bosh

lol

[monosylab1k]

Nice strawman. I never said Ibaka was a franchise player. I said he was better on defense than Bosh.

Nice lie. You said Ibaka was a "far better player than Bosh".

[Cry Havoc]

lol

Well shit, I meant a far better defender. :lol

[stretch]

Well shit, I meant a far better defender. :lol

except hes not

[TDMVPDPOY]

I've learned over the years to not drink Frenchie's Kool-aid, insofar as buying into him as a player who can will a team to a playoff victory over another contender. Parker is a very good player, sometimes great, but is consistent almost to a fault. Other than the '09 first round and game 6 against the Thunder, Parker has never erupted in a playoff series much beyond his career scoring average. For the Spurs to have any chance at winning the title, he needs to play like he did in last year's game 6 for the whole series, not just one or two games. 20-22 point-per-game won't be enough to beat the Thunder or Heat.

That said, it's somewhat of an unfair burden on him. Point guards shouldn't have to be tasked with leading their team in scoring. It's not supposed to be their job. But since the Spurs lack another 18-20 ppg perimeter scorer (Manu is no longer a threat to average 20 points-per-game over a playoff series. And if he does so, it'll be one of those "30 points one game/10 points the next" affairs), he really has no choice.

this is where KL comes in where you can have another legit offensive weapon who has a wider skillset than whatever is on the bench, but he is force to be a spectator of the 3 TOSB and super gary show...fck that shit

now back to the hero tp, he is not someone u can rely on to carry the burden of the team...he is nothing more than an opportunists whose given the green light to do whatever he pleases on the court out of the system, have u seen games where duncan has the hot hand and they go for 2 quarters without feeding him again cooling the hot hand...too many wankers on the team trying to contribute to bricking new houses

his production has been consistent, it doesnt go up alot in the playoffs compared to say duncan, even though duncan coasts in the regular season, his playoff stats go up to what he usually posts in playoffs during his prime...so once again wtf is coat riding who?

[monosylab1k]

Ibaka's a good defender. He's got a long way to go, but he's still a good defender.

So a good defender with an incredibly limited offensive game that relies almost completely on the wide open looks he gets because of Durant/Westbrook is "far better" than an above average defender who has for years shown the ability to put up 20+ on his own but sacrifices for his team?

[monosylab1k]

Well shit, I meant a far better defender. :lol

lol another lie

[monosylab1k]

If you meant "defender" you wouldn't have written "player". Just admit you're retarded and move on

[Cry Havoc]

So a good defender with an incredibly limited offensive game that relies almost completely on the wide open looks he gets because of Durant/Westbrook is "far better" than an above average defender who has for years shown the ability to put up 20+ on his own but sacrifices for his team?

Ok, so following your logic: if Durant is an incredibly gifted offensive player but obviously limited as a defender vs. LeBron who is unstoppable on offense as well and also a top 10 defender in the league, doesn't that make LeBron the MVP?

[DMC]

Lebron should never get a league MVP award after stacking with Wade and Bosh, I don't care what his stats are or how many rings he ends up with. It's people like CP3, Tony and DRose (if he was playing) that make all the difference in the world for their respective teams. Lebron does, but he had to have the 2nd best player in the league at the time in Wade, and then another AS in Bosh. Now they end up with Ray Allen as well? No MVP. Sorry. Finals MVP, ok. If Lebron was that valuable to his team they wouldn't need all the other AS talent.

[Cry Havoc]

Lebron should never get a league MVP award after stacking with Wade and Bosh, I don't care what his stats are or how many rings he ends up with. It's people like CP3, Tony and DRose (if he was playing) that make all the difference in the world for their respective teams. Lebron does, but he had to have the 2nd best player in the league at the time in Wade, and then another AS in Bosh. Now they end up with Ray Allen as well? No MVP. Sorry. Finals MVP, ok. If Lebron was that valuable to his team they wouldn't need all the other AS talent.

Yeah, I mean Jordan didn't have any other all-star (or HOF, or top 30) talent on his team, neither did Duncan for 3 of his title runs, or Magic, or Bird. :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[DMC]

Yeah, I mean Jordan didn't have any other all-star (or HOF, or top 30) talent on his team, neither did Duncan for 3 of his title runs, or Magic, or Bird. :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

Jordan made Pippen a top 50 player. Lebron did not do that for Wade. No Jordan, Pippen is just a fancy McDyess. Duncan was drafted, as was Magic, as was Bird. Try harder.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Lebron should never get a league MVP award after stacking with Wade and Bosh, I don't care what his stats are or how many rings he ends up with. It's people like CP3, Tony and DRose (if he was playing) that make all the difference in the world for their respective teams. Lebron does, but he had to have the 2nd best player in the league at the time in Wade, and then another AS in Bosh. Now they end up with Ray Allen as well? No MVP. Sorry. Finals MVP, ok. If Lebron was that valuable to his team they wouldn't need all the other AS talent.

3 point guards. If that don't beat it all.

[stretch]

Jordan made Pippen a top 50 player. Lebron did not do that for Wade. No Jordan, Pippen is just a fancy McDyess.

Right, Lebron has never made a player better. He just took a team with Drew Gooden as his second best player to the Finals, and won 60+ games multiple times with Mo Williams as his #2 option.

[Pelicans78]

Statistically, Durant and Lebron are neck and neck, especially the advanced metrics like TS%, Offensive/Defensive Rating, Win Shares and Win Shares per 48 minutes. Durant has the edge all season, but Lebron is catching up and at this pace should pass him. CP3 was up there until he started missing games. He can definitely mount a come back because he's uber efficient. Amazingly, his usage rate isn't nearly as high as Durant/Lebron/Parker. Not dominating the ball as in years past. Right now, Durant has the slight edge over Lebron, but Lebron should pass him if he continues what's he doing recently. Parker is doing top 5 well, but not enough to be the real MVP. What hurts him is his defensive metrics aren't as high as Durant/Lebron/CP3.

[DMC]

3 point guards. If that don't beat it all.

You wouldn't have an issue with that if CP3 actually went to the other LA team. Dirk would be in there if he was healthy this year, probably, and I think Paul George, Melo and Pierce would be up there as well. Of course KD is in the talks. But yes, the three PGs I mentioned have more to do with the W/L records (when healthy) than anyone else on their teams and their teams are doing very well.

[DMC]

Right, Lebron has never made a player better. He just took a team with Drew Gooden as his second best player to the Finals, and won 60+ games multiple times with Mo Williams as his #2 option.

He deserved his MVPs then. Not now. Thanks for keeping a steady keel on the faggotry though and inferring things I obviously didn't say or mean.

[stretch]

You wouldn't have an issue with that if CP3 actually went to the other LA team. Dirk would be in there if he was healthy this year, probably, and I think Paul George, Melo and Pierce would be up there as well. Of course KD is in the talks. But yes, the three PGs I mentioned have more to do with the W/L records (when healthy) than anyone else on their teams and their teams are doing very well.

what the shit???

he isnt with the team he drafted, whined his way out of town, and ended up on a team with Amare Stoudemire

[stretch]

He deserved his MVPs then. Not now. Thanks for keeping a steady keel on the faggotry though and inferring things I obviously didn't say or mean.

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[DMC]

what the shit???

he isnt with the team he drafted, whined his way out of town, and ended up on a team with Amare Stoudemire

Amare isn't anywhere near Wade's level. I don't even consider him at Bosh's level.

[DMC]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

translation: you're right, but here's some emoticons because I hate admitting it. Lebron is as good or better than he was then, but he joined up with another MVP quality player in Wade and of course with Bosh. He didn't get a ring with his sub-par help. He was swept the fuck out by TOSB and Parker.

[stretch]

Amare isn't anywhere near Wade's level. I don't even consider him at Bosh's level.

regardless, he whined his way out of the team he drafted so he could join a seemingly superior squad

at least Lebron gave cleveland the courtesy of living out his contract

[stretch]

translation: you're right, but here's some emoticons because I hate admitting it.

translation: i don't know what the fuck im talking about, so i make up bullshit to justify my not knowing what the fuck im talking about

[Pelicans78]

Lebron's last two regular seasons in Cleveland were incredible. All-time great regular seasons. The trade for Jamison really hurt that team in 2009-2010. Their frontcourt of Shaq/Ziggy/Varejao/Hickson was pretty strong before that trade. Jamison messed it up and got his ass kicked by KG in the playoffs. Varejao would have provided more resistance. They could have gotten to the Finals if that trade didn't happen.

[DMC]

regardless, he whined his way out of the team he drafted so he could join a seemingly superior squad

at least Lebron gave cleveland the courtesy of living out his contract

I am not a fan of Melo, but he's played very well this year and is a major reason the Knicks are even in the hunt. I have nothing against Lebron, I've defended him here countless times, but when you join forces with someone like Wade, you don't deserve the MVP. The Heat would not be champs if they traded Wade and only got Lebron, no Bosh.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Jordan made Pippen a top 50 player. Lebron did not do that for Wade. No Jordan, Pippen is just a fancy McDyess. Duncan was drafted, as was Magic, as was Bird. Try harder.

so ur saying without jordan, pippen wont be a top50 player? he probably be another allstar in the easts without any recognition...but still could be an allstar calibre player...

[DeadlyDynasty]

You wouldn't have an issue with that if CP3 actually went to the other LA team. Dirk would be in there if he was healthy this year, probably, and I think Paul George, Melo and Pierce would be up there as well. Of course KD is in the talks. But yes, the three PGs I mentioned have more to do with the W/L records (when healthy) than anyone else on their teams and their teams are doing very well.

LeBron James is easily the MVP of this league...you can debate who's 2nd to your heart's content though

[stretch]

Lebron's last two regular seasons in Cleveland were incredible. All-time great regular seasons. The trade for Jamison really hurt that team in 2009-2010. Their frontcourt of Shaq/Ziggy/Varejao/Hickson was pretty strong before that trade. Jamison messed it up and got his ass kicked by KG in the playoffs. Varejao would have provided more resistance. They could have gotten to the Finals if that trade didn't happen.

and in 08-09 they had the misfortune of running into a 3-pt shooting team that was firing on all cylinders. sometimes you just can't do anything against a jumpshooting team that is on fire as a whole.

[Pelicans78]

Even with Bosh and Wade on his team, Lebron controls the game enough to warrant regular season MVPs. His presence decreases the overall production of Wade and Bosh who would normally get way more touches. Plus, Lebron's defense is awesome as well.

[stretch]

The Heat would not be champs if they traded Wade and only got Lebron, no Bosh.

no shit

because that team would blow even more ass than almost any team that Lebron had in cleveland

[DMC]

so ur saying without jordan, pippen wont be a top50 player? he probably be another allstar in the easts without any recognition...but still could be an allstar calibre player...

Absolutely. No way Pippen becomes a top 50, no one even really notices him if he doesn't play along side MJ. He would have been a great player still, but he's associated with the 2 3peats.

[midnightpulp]

and in 08-09 they had the misfortune of running into a 3-pt shooting team that was firing on all cylinders. sometimes you just can't do anything against a jumpshooting team that is on fire as a whole.

They also had the misfortune of having Mo Williams.

[DMC]

no shit

because that team would blow even more ass than almost any team that Lebron had in cleveland

Exactly, so then how could Lebron be so valuable to his team if he needs two other all stars to get a ring?

[Pelicans78]

and in 08-09 they had the misfortune of running into a 3-pt shooting team that was firing on all cylinders. sometimes you just can't do anything against a jumpshooting team that is on fire as a whole.

The big problem in that series was Dwight Howard too. He destroyed Ziggy. He was a monster in that series. Every game, was clearly the most dominating force. Lebron was very good and great at times, but had to work for it alot harder. I just went through the box scores in that series. His usage rate was unreal. Closer to 40%. He was trying to do so much, but Dwight Howard had zero resistance. Unreal the type of series he had. That's why they brought in Shaq. He would have made a difference. It would have been an epic 7 game series, but the Jamison trade and Lebron's struggle in game 5 at home against Boston messed it up.

[stretch]

Exactly, so then how could Lebron be so valuable to his team if he needs two other all stars to get a ring?

lol MJ with Pippen/Rodman

lol Magic with Kareem/Worthy

lol Bird with McHale/Parish

lol Duncan with Parker/Ginobili

lol Shaq with Kobe

lol Kobe with Bynum/Gasol

How many superstars have won championships in the past 30 years without an all-star at his side?

Oddly, Dirk is one of the extreme few.

[Pelicans78]

Exactly, so then how could Lebron be so valuable to his team if he needs two other all stars to get a ring?

Because he still controls the game even with those two on the floor. Offensively and defensively. The ball is in his hands most of the team, and he's outstanding defensively. Even without Bosh, they would still be a title contender.

[DMC]

Even with Bosh and Wade on his team, Lebron controls the game enough to warrant regular season MVPs. His presence decreases the overall production of Wade and Bosh who would normally get way more touches. Plus, Lebron's defense is awesome as well.

That's all fine and good, but you shouldn't be able to remove the MVP from the team and they still win. The Heat would still be bad ass with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen (not to mention Udonis Haslem, Lewis, Birdman, Battier, etc..)

To me, the MVP is the one who makes the difference on his team. That's why people were saying he would be giving up the MVP if he went to Miami, not just because of touches, but because two super powers on the same team cannot produce a league MVP based on how it's almost always been decided.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Exactly, so then how could Lebron be so valuable to his team if he needs two other all stars to get a ring?

he took a backseat to wade in their first season together,
2nd season he took over and it became his team, wade was injured and played like shit
3rd season now wade is fit and shit, but still lebron is coasting and producing his career avgs at a higher efficiency then he could imagine

now if u look back at nashs 2mvps, the 2nd one they basically awarded it to him cause of his high efficiency and carrying that team...so how come the same cant be applied to lebron who is doing the same shit?

durant has no business winning anything, he hasnt improve anything...still a offensive minded player only

[Pelicans78]

lol MJ with Pippen/Rodman

lol Magic with Kareem/Worthy

lol Bird with McHale/Parish

lol Duncan with Parker/Ginobili

lol Shaq with Kobe

lol Kobe with Bynum/Gasol

How many superstars have won championships in the past 30 years without an all-star at his side?

Oddly, Dirk is one of the extreme few.

Dirk's run is amazing, but Tyson Chandler is a borderline All-Star (but not Hall of Fame. Still love that guy) because his presence is hard to quantify offensively and defensively. He had a huge impact on those Hornets teams and made CP3 alot better too and he's doing the same for the Knicks. But outside of that, a ton of role players on that Mavs team. Unreal what Dirk did that season. True warrior and a champion. That's one of my favorite teams of all time, mostly because of Dirk and TC. I still miss TC. He was by far my favorite player on those Hornet teams. Wasn't a bitch like David West or CP3.

[stretch]

That's all fine and good, but you shouldn't be able to remove the MVP from the team and they still win. The Heat would still be bad ass with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen (not to mention Udonis Haslem, Lewis, Birdman, Battier, etc..)


Kind of like taking MJ off the Bulls, and they go on to win 55 games?

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol Duncan with Parker/Ginobili


How many superstars have won championships in the past 30 years without an all-star at his side?

Oddly, Dirk is one of the extreme few.

u given dirk to much credit here, duncan 03 team who was an allstar beside him?

even if u count it, its still 1:1 duncan and dirk with no allstar
all said and done duncan 4>!

[stretch]

Dirk's run is amazing, but Tyson Chandler is a borderline All-Star because his presence is hard to quantify offensively and defensively. He had a huge impact on those Hornets teams and made CP3 alot better too and he's doing the same for the Knicks. But outside of that, a ton of role players on that Mavs team. Unreal what Dirk did that season. True warrior and a champion. That's one of my favorite teams of all time, mostly because of Dirk and TC.

Point wasn't to prop up Dirk, but rather show how history has proven you need 1-2 other all-star or superstar caliber players to get the job done. Especially if you want to do so multiple times. Not sure if that Mavs team could have won more than 1 championship without another star player. Much like the Pistons couldn't win more than one after their magical run in 04.

[stretch]

u given dirk to much credit here, duncan 03 team who was an allstar beside him?

even if u count it, its still 1:1 duncan and dirk with no allstar
all said and done duncan 4>!

lol butthurt and completely missing the point

[Pelicans78]

That's all fine and good, but you shouldn't be able to remove the MVP from the team and they still win. The Heat would still be bad ass with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen (not to mention Udonis Haslem, Lewis, Birdman, Battier, etc..)

To me, the MVP is the one who makes the difference on his team. That's why people were saying he would be giving up the MVP if he went to Miami, not just because of touches, but because two super powers on the same team cannot produce a league MVP based on how it's almost always been decided.

But Magic won MVPs with Kareem (a top 5 player All-time) and Worthy. Bird did the same. And the Heat would be very good without Lebron, but I'm not sure that team would win a title.

[TDMVPDPOY]

for all you guys, the term allstar to label some players...at the end of the day its all a popularity contest to make the team

butthere are players that dont make the team, have the talent level of an allstar player thats not recognize by the viewers...

[Pelicans78]

Point wasn't to prop up Dirk, but rather show how history has proven you need 1-2 other all-star or superstar caliber players to get the job done. Especially if you want to do so multiple times. Not sure if that Mavs team could have won more than 1 championship without another star player. Much like the Pistons couldn't win more than one after their magical run in 04.

True. Its almost impossible to have a dynasty without multiple All-Stars/superstars.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol butthurt and completely missing the point

just got banned from upstairs hahaha fkn butthurt wankers celebrating over a win

[DMC]

lol MJ with Pippen/Rodman

lol Magic with Kareem/Worthy

lol Bird with McHale/Parish

lol Duncan with Parker/Ginobili

lol Shaq with Kobe

lol Kobe with Bynum/Gasol

How many superstars have won championships in the past 30 years without an all-star at his side?

Oddly, Dirk is one of the extreme few.

lol Rodman

Magic was drafted as was Worthy. They didn't stack.

Parker/Ginobili were nothing when they joined the Spurs. They weren't contributing much before Duncan already had 2 MVPs. He didn't use them to win the first two, Speedy Claxton got more time than Tony.

Kobe wasn't nearly as prolific when Shaq won his MVP. Gasol wasn't the 2nd best player in the game, never won a Finals MVP. Dirk won with no help. Only Lebron has won with far and away the most talented roster in the league due to stacking, not drafting. Drafting and developing talent is different. It's not the same as stacking. Stop pretending it is.

His stats are MVP worthy, but the fact he's on a team that he intentionally stacked means he's not as big of a player for that team as he was for Cleveland. He was God in Cleveland. He's better than Wade but Wade was getting them to the playoffs every year.

[stretch]

lol Rodman

lol greatest rebounder ever, and among the best defenders ever


Magic was drafted as was Worthy. They didn't stack.

Parker/Ginobili were nothing when they joined the Spurs. They weren't contributing much before Duncan already had 2 MVPs. He didn't use them to win the first two, Speedy Claxton got more time than Tony.

Kobe wasn't nearly as prolific when Shaq won his MVP. Gasol wasn't the 2nd best player in the game, never won a Finals MVP. Dirk won with no help. Only Lebron has won with far and away the most talented roster in the league due to stacking, not drafting. Drafting and developing talent is different. It's not the same as stacking. Stop pretending it is.

His stats are MVP worthy, but the fact he's on a team that he intentionally stacked means he's not as big of a player for that team as he was for Cleveland. He was God in Cleveland. He's better than Wade but Wade was getting them to the playoffs every year.

WGAF??? They (and all those other teams you mentioned) still had multiple star talent players. It's not like Magic and others won championships with shit talent. They all needed superstar talent. You are knocking Lebron for not winning without star talent, but no one has.

[TDMVPDPOY]

gasol was never the 2nd best or whatever in the league, but he was a bonafide 19/10 franchise player where the grizz made the playoffs 3 times ina row correct?...still was a very good player whatever was built around him

to say his not good is lame, didnt he lead spain NT to something b4 winnin 2 rings with the fakers

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol DMC's takes are fucking terrible, tbh..

I've never seen so many shitty takes from a poster that constantly criticizes the posts of other posters, tbh..

[stretch]

:lol DMC's takes are fucking terrible, tbh..

I've never seen so many shitty takes from a poster that constantly criticizes the posts of other posters, tbh..

i honestly dont know why im arguing with him

bored i guess lol

[Cry Havoc]

Absolutely. No way Pippen becomes a top 50, no one even really notices him if he doesn't play along side MJ. He would have been a great player still, but he's associated with the 2 3peats.

What the hell. One of the best wing defenders ever, if not THE best, and when Jordan retired Pippen was not only a lockdown defender but ~22 points, 8+ rebounds, 5+ assists, 3 steals, and a block, on 48% shooting per game? You think all-time elite defenders who can also score and dish the rock fall out of trees on a daily basis?

[TDMVPDPOY]

What the hell. One of the best wing defenders ever, if not THE best, and when Jordan retired Pippen was not only a lockdown defender but ~22 points, 8+ rebounds, 5+ assists, 3 steals, and a block, on 48% shooting per game? You think all-time elite defenders who can also score and dish the rock fall out of trees on a daily basis?

whats strange about this...he peaked late in his career untill grant hill was drafted and started to post the same stats or better...early iin his career which overlapse with pippens prime, where pippen became demoted to him, still one point in pippens career he was a mvp candidate...i think it was the year he wore red shoes at the allstar game

[DMC]

What the hell. One of the best wing defenders ever, if not THE best, and when Jordan retired Pippen was not only a lockdown defender but ~22 points, 8+ rebounds, 5+ assists, 3 steals, and a block, on 48% shooting per game? You think all-time elite defenders who can also score and dish the rock fall out of trees on a daily basis?

He was a great defender. He doesn't see the top 50 all time without Jordan.

[DMC]

lol greatest rebounder ever, and among the best defenders ever



WGAF??? They (and all those other teams you mentioned) still had multiple star talent players. It's not like Magic and others won championships with shit talent. They all needed superstar talent. You are knocking Lebron for not winning without star talent, but no one has.


Lebron should never get a league MVP award after stacking with Wade and Bosh, I don't care what his stats are or how many rings he ends up with. It's people like CP3, Tony and DRose (if he was playing) that make all the difference in the world for their respective teams. Lebron does, but he had to have the 2nd best player in the league at the time in Wade, and then another AS in Bosh. Now they end up with Ray Allen as well? No MVP. Sorry. Finals MVP, ok. If Lebron was that valuable to his team they wouldn't need all the other AS talent.

You're flailing away at an argument I haven't made. I said nothing about winning with no other talent. I said exactly what I quoted above.

[DMC]

:lol DMC's takes are fucking terrible, tbh..

I've never seen so many shitty takes from a poster that constantly criticizes the posts of other posters, tbh..

Most of the forum comes and goes with the ebb and flow of the overall fan base, they call Lebron "Lebrick, Lechoke, Lebroom" and call him Robin when he went to Miami. The same people suck his dick after a couple of years and he's winning. No one here in their right mind thought Lebron wouldn't win a ring in Miami. I defended his decision, kept a level head all the while and I still have it. Some of you are fickle as fuck, and you wouldn't know a good take if it snuck up your skirts and bit you on your pussies.

Lol the "krew" can't hang.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol Your argument is that Lebron can't win MVP because he joined a team that has Wade..then once other posters provided several examples of superstars with talented supporting casts, you moved the goalposts to "those players were drafted, they didn't stack"(:lol)..

Then you ignore that Pippen/Phil led a team to 55 wins and a game 7 against the eventual East champs..I assume you will dismiss this and credit Pippen's development at that point to playing with Jordan:lol..

Lebron has the best advanced +/- numbers in the NBA the past 2 seasons..I'm fully prepared for you to dismiss this, tbh, just saying..

[Cry Havoc]

He was a great defender. He doesn't see the top 50 all time without Jordan.

How the fuck would you know? Have you ever watched Pippen play? You're saying a top 20 player of all-time wouldn't be top 50 without MJ? What the hell? Pippen played FOR TWO SEASONS WITHOUT MJ and was an MVP candidate.

Just. Just stop. It hurts my brain to try to follow your logic.

[DMC]

How the fuck would you know? Have you ever watched Pippen play? You're saying a top 20 player of all-time wouldn't be top 50 without MJ? What the hell? Pippen played FOR TWO SEASONS WITHOUT MJ and was an MVP candidate.

Just. Just stop. It hurts my brain to try to follow your logic.
Sure, I am probably older than you. MVP candidates don't automatically make it into the top 50 all time. No reason to get upset about it, Mensa bro.

[JamStone]

A bit of a tangent here, but Scottie Pippen isn't and never at any point was a top 20 player all time in the history of the league.

[DMC]

:lol Your argument is that Lebron can't win MVP because he joined a team that has Wade..then once other posters provided several examples of superstars with talented supporting casts, you moved the goalposts to "those players were drafted, they didn't stack"(:lol)..

Then you ignore that Pippen/Phil led a team to 55 wins and a game 7 against the eventual East champs..I assume you will dismiss this and credit Pippen's development at that point to playing with Jordan:lol..

Lebron has the best advanced +/- numbers in the NBA the past 2 seasons..I'm fully prepared for you to dismiss this, tbh, just saying..

Lebron is the best player in the game. That's not in question. Because his team is so stacked, his effect is buffered. He could be out a week, do they lose every game? Probably not. There are guys who's teams would not win a game if they weren't playing. Collectively the Heat do better, and Lebron could take the Bobcats to the ECF, but he chose Miami and knew Bosh was going to join, so he accepted the safety net.

So it depends on how you want to judge MVP. It's not always been judged by " best in the game". Steve Nash was never the best player in the game yet he won it twice in a row. He cannot play a lick of defense, but he was such a key part of that franchise that his presence on the floor meant the difference between a win and a loss.

Why does Pippen's "pretty good" stats sans MJ make him top 50 all time? You guys are showing that Pippen was a good player without MJ. That doesn't equate to top 50 all time. There are plenty beyond the top 50 who were franchise players.

[Cry Havoc]

Sure, I am probably older than you. MVP candidates don't automatically make it into the top 50 all time. No reason to get upset about it, Mensa bro.

:rolleyes

[Bill_Brasky]

Take LeBron and put him on the Bobcats and they're in the playoffs. That right there is your MVP.

[O.J. Simpson]

lol greatest rebounder ever, and among the best defenders ever



WGAF??? They (and all those other teams you mentioned) still had multiple star talent players. It's not like Magic and others won championships with shit talent. They all needed superstar talent. You are knocking Lebron for not winning without star talent, but no one has.

:lol Seriously, that was the worst argument I've ever heard. 'They were drafted' so the fuck what? That has nothing to do with the talent argument.

[Ginobilly]

I always thought that MVP should go to the best player on the team with the best record at the end of the regular season. It's a regular season record people, wgaf about stats and whatnot. You reward the best player on the team with the best record. Just like you reward the finals mvp based on what he did in the finals, and not what he did the previous 3 rounds.

[Ginobilly]

To summarize it: Everybody is jealous of the Spurs natural(got players through the draft) homegrown cock, while everybody else had to use extenze to get where they are at. Just to beat the Spurs and their system after 07, the league got back into stacking super teams together. Didn't Kevin Garnett say that it was the reason that league officials started to do that?

[O.J. Simpson]

Two incredibly stupid posts above me. Bravo.

[JamStone]

I always thought that MVP should go to the best player on the team with the best record at the end of the regular season. It's a regular season record people, wgaf about stats and whatnot. You reward the best player on the team with the best record. Just like you reward the finals mvp based on what he did in the finals, and not what he did the previous 3 rounds.

You think Tim Duncan should give his 2002 League MVP to Chris Webber?

[Ginobilly]

Two incredibly stupid posts above me. Bravo.

I bet you knew that Ginobili and Parker would turn out to be hof's when they got drafted.:lol a 28th pick and 57th 2nd round pick.:lmao

[O.J. Simpson]

I bet you knew that Ginobili and Parker would turn out to be hof's when they got drafted.:lol a 28th pick and 57th 2nd round pick.:lmao

We should give Tony Parker back-to-back-to-back MVPs. Sounds about right.

BTW, were you deprived of oxygen during childbirth?

[Ginobilly]

You think Tim Duncan should give his 2002 League MVP to Chris Webber?

Maybe. Chris Webber had a good year in 02, and his Kings almost dethroned the lakers. The Spurs got their asses kicked that year. Malone shouldn't of had it in 99. That was Duncan's award that year.

[DMC]

:lol Seriously, that was the worst argument I've ever heard. 'They were drafted' so the fuck what? That has nothing to do with the talent argument.

An argument I didn't make.

[DMC]

:rolleyes

Pippen never won a regular season MVP, never won a Finals MVP, has 1 ASG MVP (woo hoo), holds records for 3pt attempts and steals.

If not for MJ, Pippen would have played out his career pretty much top 15 in the league, but never would have been the best in the league at any time, and would have never been the 2nd best in the league at any time. Same is true for Rodman. He's a rebounding freak, but without the association with Michael Jordan/Zeke, he's just a stat freak like Kevin Love.

[O.J. Simpson]

An argument I didn't make.

So what is your argument? Simply if you have the fortune of being drafted on a team with All-Stars, you deserve MVP, but if you moved teams to be in the same exact situation, you don't?

What kind of fucking logic is this?

[snickles]

lol @ Rondo being the main guy.

He might make the most headlines, but everyone knows that Boston is still all about the Pierce/Garnett combo.

way to avoid the questions. expected, though.

[DMC]

So what is your argument? Simply if you have the fortune of being drafted on a team with All-Stars, you deserve MVP, but if you moved teams to be in the same exact situation, you don't?

What kind of fucking logic is this?
None of the drafted guys were MVPs when they were drafted. They developed into MVPs despite being in the presence of all stars.

MVPs who stack intentionally are diluting their MVP rating, but increasing the effectiveness of their team. Shaq on the same team with Hakeem would have to share spotlight with Hakeem. Magic and MJ on the same team, who wins the MVP? Since it's diluted between them, a 3rd player can actually win.

Pretty sure I never mentioned "deserve". Like Stretch, your game is to build strawmen and then fight those. I was clear in my original statement. Learn to read, and grow some balls and stop using an alias to debate.

[O.J. Simpson]

None of the drafted guys were MVPs when they were drafted. They developed into MVPs despite being in the presence of all stars.

MVPs who stack intentionally are diluting their MVP rating, but increasing the effectiveness of their team. Shaq on the same team with Hakeem would have to share spotlight with Hakeem. Magic and MJ on the same team, who wins the MVP? Since it's diluted between them, a 3rd player can actually win.

Pretty sure I never mentioned "deserve". Like Stretch, your game is to build strawmen and then fight those. I was clear in my original statement. Learn to read, and grow some balls and stop using an alias to debate.

What the fuck does 'developing' into an MVP mean 'despite' all stars even mean?? You don't think it helped Magic and Bird's chances of winning the MVP that were already on stacked teams?

Larry Bird won 3 consecutive MVPs on a team where 2 big men All-stars were averaging about 20/9 and 18/11. What your argument is saying, that is if Larry Bird rather joined the Celtics in '83 and had the exact same effect on the team, this counts for less because he's 'diluting' his worth? This is just some fucking retarded metric you just invented to justify your displeasure with LeBron winning, even though he's the best player in the league and is the offensive and defensive focal point of his team, even if Bosh and Wade on it.

:lol Right, 'intentionally' stack teams, but if you happen to fall into a stacked team due to draft, that's OK. It's not a strawmen, this is literally your argument.

And shut the fuck up old coot, I'm the Juice. Deal with it.

[DMC]

What the fuck does 'developing' into an MVP mean 'despite' all stars even mean?? You don't think it helped Magic and Bird's chances of winning the MVP that were already on stacked teams?

Larry Bird won 3 consecutive MVPs on a team where 2 big men All-stars were averaging about 20/9 and 18/11. What your argument is saying, that is if Larry Bird rather joined the Celtics in '83 and had the exact same effect on the team, this counts for less because he's 'diluting' his worth? This is just some fucking retarded metric you just invented to justify your displeasure with LeBron winning, even though he's the best player in the league and is the offensive and defensive focal point of his team, even if Bosh and Wade on it.

:lol Right, 'intentionally' stack teams, but if you happen to fall into a stacked team due to draft, that's OK. It's not a strawmen, this is literally your argument.

And shut the fuck up old coot, I'm the Juice. Deal with it.

Like I said, you're arguing something I didn't say. No wonder you hide behind an alias, you're a fucking idiot.

[O.J. Simpson]

Like I said, you're arguing something I didn't say. No wonder you hide behind an alias, you're a fucking idiot.
No one knows what your geriatric ass said, because you constantly run away from your idiotic takes when called out.

"Look at me! I have a monkey and a basketball in my avatar! MONKEYBALL, get it? Am I cool now?"

lol DMChink

[DMC]

lol relegated and regulated by an old man

[Reck]

*Ahem*

[KL2]

Parker leading his team to the finals proving my point, like I said Parker>>>>Kobe

:cry

[Baseline]

Bryant couldn't go 15-21 in an empty gym by himself.

[dbreiden83080]

Kobe got stuck playing with Howard this year.. :lol

[lebomb]

Bryant couldn't go 15-21 in an empty gym by himself.

The hell he cant!!!!!!


15 out of 21 bricks

[Cry Havoc]

Bryant couldn't go 15-21 in an empty gym by himself.

He'd never only take 21 shots in a single session. :lol

[lebomb]

He'd never only take 21 shots in a single session. :lol

Actually thats in one half...........

"Kobe drops 38 in a game........ 15 of 52 from the field, and the Lakers win by 1" :cheer