Rewatching the Spurs-Lakers 2003 WCSF Game 6

[ambchang]

Not sure if I can post copyrighted videos on this site, so I won’t, but if you want to check it out, just go to YouTube, type in “Spurs Lakers 2003 Game 6” and you will find that game.

Just a phenomenal game, and brings me back the good ole days of the Spurs from a decade ago.

The reason I made this thread is to talk about some of the revisionist history that has pervaded the Internet over the last ten years:
1. Duncan wasn’t as dominant as Shaq during their respective primes – I actually thought that too, but that was just utterly false. Just watching that game, Duncan was a beast and a man possessed. He didn’t post numbers as gaudy as Shaq’s, but he was every bit as dominant. Duncan’s numbers suffered somewhat due to the Spurs slower pace, but also because of the way the offense was constructed.
He was pretty much the entire Spurs offense, and his defense was heads and shoulders above Shaq. The entire Lakers defense would collapse on him, and Duncan would still be able to score or create despite it.
2. Shaq and Kobe shared equal billing from 2003 to 2004 – this is just utter crap. Shaq was double or triple teamed every single time he touched the ball, Kobe was NEVER double teamed. Sure there was help when Kobe drove the lane, but in general, it was Bowen vs. Kobe straight up, with the entire Spurs defense concentrating on Shaq. It’s obvious by looking at the game. There’s a reason Fisher was shooting lights out (29 for 47 from 3, that’s 62% for the entire playoffs) in the playoffs, and that reason is Shaq.
3. Horry stunk up the joint that year – Horry was horrible from the outside, but overall, he is actually decent on offense. He played smart, he defended Duncan relatively well, he passed well, and he scored well on 2-pointers. He was but a manufactured scrape goat for the Lakers demise
4. Parker and Manu was playing like HoFers that year – no, they weren’t even playing like All-stars that year, Parker was really green, and made mistakes after mistakes, along with having absolutely no-outside shot. Manu was a whirling dervish who would follow up a great play with a hair-pulling bad play. They showed great potential, yes, but they were most definitely not championship quality guards that year. In fact, the 2nd best Spur that year was Stephen Jackson.
5. Robinson was washed up – On offense, yes, he couldn’t/didn’t do much at that point. On defense though, Robinson, along with Duncan, just anchored that historically good defense that year. His ability to give some resistance to the at-prime Shaq, slowing him down on the first touch allowed the entire Spurs defense to collapse on Shaq and disrupt the Lakers offense.
Just a highly enjoyable game (and series, if I remembered correctly). The Spurs were playing almost perfect basketball, and were a team possessed.
If they play that series 100 times, I am not sure the Spurs will win over half of it, because Shaq was really that dominant, and with a defense that pretty much lets any non-Shaq player gets his, the Spurs were essentially picking its own poison. Unfortunately for Stern and the media, the Spurs picked the right poison this time around.

[Trainwreck2100]

Kenny saying "this is the year Horry misses"

Ends up being the year Horry missed

[timvp]

1. Duncan wasn’t as dominant as Shaq during their respective primes – I actually thought that too, but that was just utterly false. Just watching that game, Duncan was a beast and a man possessed. He didn’t post numbers as gaudy as Shaq’s, but he was every bit as dominant. Duncan’s numbers suffered somewhat due to the Spurs slower pace, but also because of the way the offense was constructed.
He was pretty much the entire Spurs offense, and his defense was heads and shoulders above Shaq. The entire Lakers defense would collapse on him, and Duncan would still be able to score or create despite it.

From the start of Duncan's career, the only years I'd say Shaq was clearly better were 1998, 2000 and 2001. Duncan was better in 1999 and 2003 onward. The closest year is probably 2002 but I think it's fair to give that year to Duncan as well. Their stats when they faced each other in the playoffs that year:

Shaquille O'Neal
21.4 points
12.2 rebounds
3.2 assists
3.0 blocks

Tim Duncan
29.0 points
17.2 rebounds
4.6 assists
3.2 blocks

So, yeah, that series was emphatically in Duncan's favor even though the Spurs lost.



2. Shaq and Kobe shared equal billing from 2003 to 2004 – this is just utter crap. Shaq was double or triple teamed every single time he touched the ball, Kobe was NEVER double teamed. Sure there was help when Kobe drove the lane, but in general, it was Bowen vs. Kobe straight up, with the entire Spurs defense concentrating on Shaq. It’s obvious by looking at the game. There’s a reason Fisher was shooting lights out (29 for 47 from 3, that’s 62% for the entire playoffs) in the playoffs, and that reason is Shaq.
Truth. To survive against prime Shaq, you basically had to double team from the start of a possession and then send a third body at him when he got the ball. No one ever doubled Kobe. Tbh, most of the time you were relieved when Kobe got the ball because prime Shaq was basically an automatic bucket when he caught the ball with good post position.


3. Horry stunk up the joint that year – Horry was horrible from the outside, but overall, he is actually decent on offense. He played smart, he defended Duncan relatively well, he passed well, and he scored well on 2-pointers. He was but a manufactured scrape goat for the Lakers demiseSavvy signing by the Spurs. Horry was still putting up strong plus/minus numbers despite the fact that he couldn't shoot.



4. Parker and Manu was playing like HoFers that year – no, they weren’t even playing like All-stars that year, Parker was really green, and made mistakes after mistakes, along with having absolutely no-outside shot. Manu was a whirling dervish who would follow up a great play with a hair-pulling bad play. They showed great potential, yes, but they were most definitely not championship quality guards that year. In fact, the 2nd best Spur that year was Stephen Jackson.Mostly agree. Parker was probably a slightly above average starter at that point. Ginobili was a difference-maker but he could taketh as quickly as he giveth.

Jackson wasn't the second best Spur though. He was pretty damn bad in that Lakers series. He had huge moments in that playoff run but he was also painfully raw at times.

Best players on the 2003 Spurs in order:

1. Duncan
2. Robinson
3. Parker
4. Ginobili
5. Bowen
6. Rose
7. Jackson
8. Willis
9. Claxton
10. Kerr
11. Ferry
12. Smith


5. Robinson was washed up – On offense, yes, he couldn’t/didn’t do much at that point. On defense though, Robinson, along with Duncan, just anchored that historically good defense that year. His ability to give some resistance to the at-prime Shaq, slowing him down on the first touch allowed the entire Spurs defense to collapse on Shaq and disrupt the Lakers offense.Agree. Robinson was still the best defender on the team even in 2003. Duncan was legitimately a First-Team All-NBA defender ... but Robinson was better on D. In 1999, Robinson was the best defender in the NBA. He wasn't quite at that level in 2003 but he was still damn good.


Just a highly enjoyable game (and series, if I remembered correctly).Outside of the Finals wins, this was the most enjoyable series I've watched as a Spurs fan. Easily.

[DMC]

No no, Parker and Manu were HOFers, All Stars and Duncan had a ton of help with those guys.

[jeebus]

I watched a few mins of like part 2 or 3. Holy shit, I forgot how bad ABC was back then, how fucking annoying Bill Walton was, and how shitty Tom Tolbert is.

[ambchang]

Another thing, the Lakers played absolutely differently without Shaq, they become this helter skelter run and gun team that created chaos on defense, and relies heavily on ball movement on offense (that usually doesn't end well for the Lakers). Shaq slows down the pace, because it allows the Lakers to run better sets that gives the Lakers better shots.

On defense, Shaq really wasn't that good. He could be phenomenal in short spurts, but he couldn't sustain it.

[Koolaid_Man]

:lol you feel better now Spur fan.... wakin up agg this mo'ning? In summary you posted all that shit to say what you've always said:

Shaq better than Kobe but Duncan better than Kobe and Shaq....

and yet...as Cully would say..all boiled down to:

Kobe 5

TOSB 4 :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

Watch this while you at it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTWTcx7rL78

[Koolaid_Man]

One more for the road...Sorry Spur fan..but I enjoy watching a prime Kobe...very exciting....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmmgQNz6Lfs

[ambchang]

I once watched highlights of Corey Maggette, man, he would have been a HoF if the voting committees are retards and only look into highlights instead of actual games.

[Chinook]

One more for the road...Sorry Spur fan..but I enjoy watching a prime Kobe...very exciting....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmmgQNz6Lfs

You do realize there's a button so that you can imbed videos into posts, right?

[Thebesteva]

Kenny saying "this is the year Horry misses"

Ends up being the year Horry missed

Yeah I remember that....fucking Kenny

[Thebesteva]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_2yzDiG6g

Still the greatest playoff game in NBA history as far as pure entertainment value goes. That silence of 20 thousand Spurs fans as they slowly die at the dreaded SBC center...priceless

[Clipper Nation]

Not as priceless as Timmy shutting down the Great Western Forum with a sweep, tbh...

[ambchang]

I really apologize for any Laker fans taking this as a diss. I know you guys are very sensitive right now, and probably on the defensive about anything that would be considered a slight, but that really isn't my intention. I just want to bring legitimate basketball discussions into the NBA forum, and shed some light on much of the revisionist history that has been thrown around like monkey feces the last few years.

I would be more than happy for people to actually watch that game again and argue for or against any of my points. If you guys want to talk about another game, or post some random Kobe highlights, feel free to open up a thread on it. it's not like you are not allowed to do it, are you?

[Leetonidas]

Lakerfan immediately getting butthurt and defensive :lol

[Cry Havoc]

4. Parker and Manu was playing like HoFers that year – no, they weren’t even playing like All-stars that year, Parker was really green, and made mistakes after mistakes, along with having absolutely no-outside shot. Manu was a whirling dervish who would follow up a great play with a hair-pulling bad play. They showed great potential, yes, but they were most definitely not championship quality guards that year. In fact, the 2nd best Spur that year was Stephen Jackson.

Even Spurs fans remember this with rose tinted glasses. Tony was one of the most one-dimensional point guards in the league that year. He had speed, that was it. Couldn't pass very well, couldn't defend, couldn't score consistently if his man backed off him. Your assessment of Manu is accurate, he did more most games to help the team than hurt the team, but he hurt us a lot, too. His hustle alone kept him on the court a lot of times. You had to wonder about Pop's blood pressure with those two guys getting serious minutes in a playoff run. :lol

Duncan seriously put that entire team on his back that year. Yes, we had good role players, but outside of David, that's basically what the entire team was. Just guys who could do one or two things well. It was definitely a cobbled together team with one of the best ever willing them to victory.

Even more impressive is that Duncan scored nearly 30ppg on a team that was only averaging 94-96 per game, if memory serves.

[z0sa]

No no, Parker and Manu were HOFers, All Stars and Duncan had a ton of help with those guys.

:lol I love this argument. It's almost always uttered from the lips of a douchey Lakerfan.

[TDfan2007]

That 2003 playoff run by Timmy was top 5 all time. I always laugh when KG fan decides to qualify KG's superiority by stating that he had worse teammates. While this notion was true from 98-2001, and 2005-2007, Timmy has started alongside some questionable talent. If I remember right, Timmy had a banged up DRob, rookie TP, washed up Steve Smith, and Bowen as his fellow starters in the 2002 playoffs. Even so, he managed to take that team toe to toe with the Lakers (5 game series, but every game was close).

Obviously, 2nd year TP and rookie Manu weren't scrubs, but they weren't All Stars either. Both played an inconsistent brand of ball. Also, by 2003 David was unable to consistently stay on the court (about 24 mpg) due to injuries piling up. Timmy straight up carried that team. I was twelve at the time, so I couldn't appreciate the magnitude of what he did until I looked back several years later, but even my 12-year-old self was wowed by his awesome play.

Good times...

[Koolaid_Man]

I really apologize for any Laker fans taking this as a diss. I know you guys are very sensitive right now, and probably on the defensive about anything that would be considered a slight, but that really isn't my intention. I just want to bring legitimate basketball discussions into the NBA forum, and shed some light on much of the revisionist history that has been thrown around like monkey feces the last few years.

I would be more than happy for people to actually watch that game again and argue for or against any of my points. If you guys want to talk about another game, or post some random Kobe highlights, feel free to open up a thread on it. it's not like you are not allowed to do it, are you?

Check this out..I think it's the first time in NBA history that a player went 1 on 5 and literally scored on all 5 Spur defenders at the same time...:lmao muthafucking Kobe :lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg

[midnightpulp]

:lol I love this argument. It's almost always uttered from the lips of a douchey Lakerfan.

They also pump up the roster of the '01 Spurs since that happened to be the year the Lakers swept with Kobe going off. That roster was downright terrible, even more so when Derek Anderson got hurt. I have no idea how they won 58 games, even with a prime Duncan.

Derek Anderson was their second leading scorer that year averaging a very impressive 15 points a game on a stellar 41 percent shooting. Their best wing defender was probably the corpse of Sean Elliott. And players such as Danny Ferry and a senior citizen Terry Porter were "key" rotation players. Really, only David Robinson was worth his salt, but nowhere near his prime.

That's why I maintain Kobe's '01 series as one of the most overrated performances in NBA history. With no Anderson, he didn't have to guard anybody on the perimeter and had all the energy in the world to relentlessly abuse the Spurs' shitty perimeter defense.

Now before you start frothing at the mouth, Lakers fans, I think Kobe's '08 series was mightily impressive. With an aging Bowen and a somewhat decent defender in Udoka, Kobe faced at least some resistance. Not to mention, he sometimes guarded Parker and Manu.

[Koolaid_Man]

They also pump up the roster of the '01 Spurs since that happened to be the year the Lakers swept with Kobe going off. That roster was downright terrible, even more so when Derek Anderson got hurt. I have no idea how they won 58 games, even with a prime Duncan.

Derek Anderson was their second leading scorer that year averaging a very impressive 15 points a game on a stellar 41 percent shooting. Their best wing defender was probably the corpse of Sean Elliott. And players such as Danny Ferry and a senior citizen Terry Porter were "key" rotation players. Really, only David Robinson was worth his salt, but nowhere near his prime.

That's why I maintain Kobe's '01 series as one of the most overrated performances in NBA history. With no Anderson, he didn't have to guard anybody on the perimeter and had all the energy in the world to relentlessly abuse the Spurs' shitty perimeter defense.

Now before you start frothing at the mouth, Lakers fans, I think Kobe's '08 series was mightily impressive. With an aging Bowen and a somewhat decent defender in Udoka, Kobe faced at least some resistance. Not to mention, he sometimes guarded Parker and Manu.

Check this out mid...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u7xSy0oP5E

[midnightpulp]

Check this out..I think it's the first time in NBA history that a player went 1 on 5 and literally scored on all 5 Spur defenders at the same time...:lmao muthafucking Kobe :lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg

Nice clip, Kool.

Does your idiot brain realize Kobe shot in that game, wait for it,



9-33

:lmao


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200511290SAS.html

Only a dipshit Kirby fan would celebrate a clip from a game in which their hero had his worst game of the season. Bowen shut that boy down.

Nice layup, though.

[Koolaid_Man]

Nice clip, Kool.

Does your idiot brain realize Kobe shot in that game, wait for it,



9-33

:lmao


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200511290SAS.html

Only a dipshit Kirby fan would celebrate a clip from a game in which their hero had his worst game of the season. Bowen shut that boy down.

Nice layup, though.

Mid history will only remember that Kobe literally scored on your whole team 1 5 ..the advanced stats and even the loss is buried in Kobe 5 > TOSB 4

[midnightpulp]

Mid history will only remember that Kobe literally scored on your whole team 1 5 ..the advanced stats and even the loss is buried in Kobe 5 > TOSB 4

Oops. I posted the wrong game.

Here it is:

8-22 :lmao

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200411050LAL.html

And a Spurs win and eventual chip that year :hat

Kirby missed the playoffs.

But nice layup.

[Koolaid_Man]

Oops. I posted the wrong game.

Here it is:

8-22 :lmao

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200411050LAL.html

And a Spurs win and eventual chip that year :hat

Kirby missed the playoffs.

But nice layup.

Mid what do you think of guys who win titles but can't repeat? Also do you think Lebron shits on Duncan's legacy if he repeats this year? I think if you can't repeat it's a fluke....

[Koolaid_Man]

Mid who do you take:

a prime Lebron or a Prime Shaq
a prime Lebron or a Prime Duncan

[Koolaid_Man]

^ mid try not to think about Kobe while answering those questions

[Cry Havoc]

Mid history will only remember that Kobe literally scored on your whole team 1 5 ..the advanced stats and even the loss is buried in Kobe 5 > TOSB 4

Come back to the Light side, Stout.

[midnightpulp]

Mid what do you think of guys who win titles but can't repeat? Also do you think Lebron shits on Duncan's legacy if he repeats this year? I think if you can't repeat it's a fluke....

Just like rings, repeats are team accomplishments.

That's what I think of them.

If you want to compare individuals, compare individual accomplishments. If Bron wins the ship, he probably wins the Finals MVP, so the count will be:

Duncan: 3

James: 2

That said, I do think Lebron winds up the better all-time player than Duncan. He's got at least two more Finals MVPs in him. If he wins it this year, he definitely passes Kobe all-time.

[Clipper Nation]

I think if you can't repeat it's a fluke....
Winning it all four times isn't a fluke whether you repeat or not, dumbass.....

[Spurs 4 The Win]

midnightpulp feeding the trolls lol.... fail

[Latarian Milton]

spurs would've won 3-peat 03-05 had they not got robbed by refs and fisher in 04' series against the lakers tbh

[ambchang]

Check this out..I think it's the first time in NBA history that a player went 1 on 5 and literally scored on all 5 Spur defenders at the same time...:lmao muthafucking Kobe :lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg

I must say that is mighty impressive. Never seen that level of ballhoggertry in succeeding the past tbh. Hats off.

I say we should start a thread celebrating Kobe's magnificent play with attached videos of it. Do you mind starting that thread given that you are probably Kobe's number 1 fan. I just think you should have the honors.

[racm]

Come to think of it... Tony was an Austin Rivers but with better foot speed in his first couple of seasons... Manu would've ended up on Shaqtin a Fool many a time back then...

DRob was the Tyson Chandler of the group: Best defender and tertiary option on offense.

[SpursIndonesia]

spurs would've won 3-peat 03-05 had they not got robbed by refs and fisher in 04' series against the lakers tbh

I don't think a Hedo Turkeyglue endowed Spurs will do any better in the final against that juggernaut defense 2004 Pistons, that team was legit, might be one of the strongest champ team of 2001-2010 period.

Now, 2006 Spurs, that might have a case, i don't think even refs supported DWade will be enough to stop dem Spurs in the final, too bad they stopped themselves by losing to the flukish Mavs that year.

[AaronY]

I once watched highlights of Corey Maggette, man, he would have been a HoF if the voting committees are retards and only look into highlights instead of actual games.
Lol

[baseline bum]

4. Parker and Manu was playing like HoFers that year – no, they weren’t even playing like All-stars that year, Parker was really green, and made mistakes after mistakes, along with having absolutely no-outside shot.


LOL, I remember the way Pop just fucking ripped into Tony when he fouled Fisher on a long two in the first quarter. I don't I have ever seen Pop that pissed off.



Just a highly enjoyable game (and series, if I remembered correctly). The Spurs were playing almost perfect basketball, and were a team possessed.
If they play that series 100 times, I am not sure the Spurs will win over half of it, because Shaq was really that dominant, and with a defense that pretty much lets any non-Shaq player gets his, the Spurs were essentially picking its own poison. Unfortunately for Stern and the media, the Spurs picked the right poison this time around.

I think the Spurs win that series at least 80 times if they played 100. I mean they completely manhandled LA in games 2, 5, and 6 while LA really only took it to the Spurs in game 3. That roster was built specifically for beating LA. Fast point guards in Parker and Claxton, lockdown perimter defender in Bowen, long SG who can defend the 3 in Jackson, physical 7 footer in Willis, I mean, they were built for LA. Another thing to factor in was Fox was complete TOSB by 2002, and he was an enormous part of the beating the Spurs took in 2001. And then Samaki Walker was no Horace Grant.