Stirring the pot: Kobe's 06-07 scoring streak or Lebron's efficiency streak?

[midnightpulp]

http://oi45.tinypic.com/f1d7t.jpg

VS

http://oi47.tinypic.com/2lscuu1.jpg

[noob cake]

Check FG% + minutes played

LeBron today has officially eclipsed Kobe prime/anytime.

[Trainwreck2100]

Kobe

[StrengthAndHonor]

I'll play devils advocate. Kobe's much more impressive. The fact that he took almost twice if not thrice more shots than Lebron and was able to shoot 52% and an almost a similar TS% than Lebron (due to FT %) speaks volumes of how lethal Kobe was as a scorer.



And this is coming from one of Kobe's hater.

[midnightpulp]

I'll play devils advocate. Kobe's much more impressive. The fact that he took almost twice if not thrice more shots than Lebron and was able to shoot 52% and an a higher TS% than Lebron (due to FT %) speaks volumes of how lethal Kobe was as a scorer.



And this is coming from one of Kobe's hater.

No need to play Devil's Advocate. I'm not subtly trolling with this comparison or anything. Both 5 game stretches are some of the best I've personally seen, and even I can't decide who was better. Factors working in Kobe's favor are his higher TS%, the amount of shots he took, and the mediocre team he was on.

I, too, probably give the edge to Kobe.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Keep in mind 06-07 was the year Kobe was pretty much the only focus of every defense unlike Lebron who had a much easier way to the basket because of the quality of his teammates.



The streak however doesn't show who was the better player. Its obvious Lebron is above and beyond Kobe then and especially now, but in terms of scoring, Kobe has bragging rights.



That being said, this will not end well. :lol

[JamStone]

Both extremely impressive. But I don't think there are any other players currently playing in the NBA who could score 50+ points in 4 straight games even if they were intent on doing so. Maybe there are plenty of great scorers who could score 50 points in a game if they had their mind set on it. Maybe a handful who could do it 2 straight games. I don't know if there are any other players who could do it 4 straight games, not even Durant, Melo, or LeBron. And the fourth game was on the second night of a back-to-back.

[racm]

Kobe drew fouls like a center tbh.

[Juggity]

Lebron's last six games (30-plus point performances while shooting 50-plus percent from the floor) have apparently never been duplicated in NBA history.

Wilt, on the other hand, definitely had a run of five straight 40-60 point games at least once or twice in his career. After all, he averaged 50ppg one season.

[JamStone]

Also, LeBron's 5 games all at home, no back-to-backs. Two of those Kobe games were on the road, one set of back-to-backs. Just another consideration.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Why stop here? How about Jordan's Triple Double Streak (10 in 11 games)

33.6 points, 10.8 rebounds, and 11.4 assists

And not to derail, I thought this picture is awesome.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/wp-content/uploads/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james.jpg

[midnightpulp]

Why stop here? How about Jordan's Triple Double Streak (10 in 11 games)

33.6 points, 10.8 rebounds, and 11.4 assists

And not to derail, I thought this picture is awesome.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/wp-content/uploads/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james.jpg

Pretty incredible.

[Jt.ONE]

KB having almost double/triple the FGAs that lebron did, yet still basically going 50-40-90 during that span + less turnovers(unless im reading that column wrong) + including the b2b away games = slight edge to kobe.

[Jt.ONE]

Why stop here? How about Jordan's Triple Double Streak (10 in 11 games)

33.6 points, 10.8 rebounds, and 11.4 assists

And not to derail, I thought this picture is awesome.



http://www.interbasket.net/news/wp-content/uploads/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james.jpg

damn, looking up the stats for that 11 game span = absolutely sick... shame the bulls went 5-6 in that span though, makes one wonder

[Clipper Nation]

I'll take the Kang's efficiency over Kirby's chucking any day...

[HI-FI]

Why stop here? How about Jordan's Triple Double Streak (10 in 11 games)

33.6 points, 10.8 rebounds, and 11.4 assists

And not to derail, I thought this picture is awesome.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/wp-content/uploads/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james.jpg

the joys of photoshop. great pic.

as for the comparison, i'm more a fan of efficiency so I'll take LBJ over Kobe. but Kobe was definitely balling out of his mind during that time.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Is it crazy to think that if a prime Jordan was playing in this era, he'd probably be considered as the second best player behind Lebron?


Just imagine for a minute, 2012 Bulls roster with Jordan replacing Rose as its star player. I can definitely see Jordan's Bulls being ran to the ground by Lebron's Heat. Crazy.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Still remember that Portland game...unbelievable stuff

[Mugen]

Det was a ridiculous streak by Kirby tbh. Jam's right, nobody in today's NBA could put up a 5 game streak with those type of scoring numbers even if they tried. KD still relies too much on jumpers and foul calls and LeBron isn't the shooter that Kobe was back then. Maybe Melo but i highly doubt it.

[DAF86]

Both extremely impressive. But I don't think there are any other players currently playing in the NBA who could score 50+ points in 4 straight games even if they were intent on doing so. Maybe there are plenty of great scorers who could score 50 points in a game if they had their mind set on it. Maybe a handful who could do it 2 straight games. I don't know if there are any other players who could do it 4 straight games, not even Durant, Melo, or LeBron. And the fourth game was on the second night of a back-to-back.

That's arguable, I wouldn't bet against Durant or Lebron if they planned on scoring at least 50 for 4th straight games. On the other hand what other player besides Lebron would be able to average 31 ppg on 74% shooting on a span of 5 games?

[DeadlyDynasty]

:lolthe 2:00 mark...didn't count but it just proves how ridiculously locked in he was that night


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufIQnlbTXyE

[spurraider21]

That's arguable, I wouldn't bet against Durant or Lebron if they planned on scoring at least 50 for 4th straight games. On the other hand what other player besides Lebron would be able to average 31 ppg on 74% shooting on a span of 5 games?

nobody that I can think of in today's game besides a healthy bynum if given the touches. all i can think of are centers like shaq that can do something like that

[Arcadian]

Lebron, because his team is better. He is fueling his team to play great team basketball. Kobe was just racking up impressive stats with little substance behind it.

You also have to consider the sustainability of the streak. Not even Kobe could average 50 over a whole season, but Lebron could maintain this level of efficiency from here til June.

[kobedwight2412]

Kobe easily those games were fucken making me shat my pants just couldnt believe what I was seeing

[ffadicted]

Kobe's is more impressive tbh

[timvp]

I'm sure it'll get scoffed but, whatever, this stretch of games by David Robinson is one of the greatest stretches I've ever seen:

http://oi48.tinypic.com/2wcg1eh.jpg

:wow

The quadruple-double alone was impressive but to have another near quadruple-double in the same time frame followed by a 50-point game. And a ho-hum 34/10/9/4/4 mixed in. All wins despite this starting lineup: Robinson along with Vinny Del Negro, Willie Anderson, Dale Ellis and Terry Cummings :lol

A bigman with no true point guard on the court and no other player in the starting lineup who was even above average ... yet he still posted video game numbers while dragging his team to wins.

Disgusting, tbh.

[Killakobe81]

Close call but Lebron. He has a much better cast than Kobe's shitty one ... so it's tough. Kobe CARRIED that team. But Lebron making it look easy tbh ...
Kobe had to work much harder for his streak. It was incredible but James is doing some crazy stuff too and seems to turn it on and off when needed.

[midnightpulp]

I'm sure it'll get scoffed but, whatever, this stretch of games by David Robinson is one of the greatest stretches I've ever seen:

http://oi48.tinypic.com/2wcg1eh.jpg

:wow

The quadruple-double alone was impressive but to have another near quadruple-double in the same time frame followed by a 50-point game. And a ho-hum 34/10/9/4/4 mixed in. All wins despite this starting lineup: Robinson along with Vinny Del Negro, Willie Anderson, Dale Ellis and Terry Cummings :lol

A bigman with no true point guard on the court and no other player in the starting lineup who was even above average ... yet he still posted video game numbers while dragging his team to wins.

Disgusting, tbh.

Amazing. One the top 5 greatest regular season players during his prime. Just never was able to follow up his regular season brilliance in the playoffs.

What's your take on the reason? Coaching? (lol Bob Hill and John Lucas) Supporting cast? (I honestly don't think it was that bad, featuring Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson, along with some solid role players) David's lack of a back-to-the-basket post-game? Combination of all?

[midnightpulp]

Amazing. One the top 5 greatest regular season players during his prime. Just never was able to follow up his regular season brilliance in the playoffs.

What's your take on the reason? Coaching? (lol Bob Hill and John Lucas) Supporting cast? (I honestly don't think it was that bad, featuring Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson, along with some solid role players) David's lack of a back-to-the-basket post-game? Combination of all?

A great player, possibly the most naturally talented big man (in terms of overall game) to ever set foot in the NBA, who was the league's leading scorer should never get bottled up like this in a playoff series (averaged 20 points per on 41 shooting), no matter who he has as teammates or who his coach is:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199404300SAS.html

David has top 5-10 talent, but for whatever reason, couldn't maximize it.

7 foot 1 and could do things like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

I've never seen a 7 footer get out on the break that fast. David's athletic gifts shame that monkeyballer Dwight. And he was pretty damn fundamental, too, aside from his post game.

[racm]

DRob had a bad supporting cast. That year Hakeem had Drexler (who led a team to two Finals in his own right), and guys like Horry who would hit big shots.

[Jacob1983]

Robinson's quadruple double was amazing but I'd say Kobe's scoring streak was more impressive than Lecrab's current streak. When you score 50 points in consecutive games, that's impressive and difficult.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Just realized 2 of those games from Kobe were 60 points or more. That's nuts tbh.

[timvp]

Amazing. One the top 5 greatest regular season players during his prime. Just never was able to follow up his regular season brilliance in the playoffs.

What's your take on the reason? Coaching? (lol Bob Hill and John Lucas) Supporting cast? (I honestly don't think it was that bad, featuring Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson, along with some solid role players) David's lack of a back-to-the-basket post-game? Combination of all?

Complicated answer, obviously but leading reasons:

1. Robinson played in a poor era for his skillset. If he plays during Showtime or in today's game, he's unstoppable. Unfortunately for him, he played in a slow era that allowed tons of contact. Bad luck.

2. His lack of low-post game hurt. But, really, it wasn't his fault. Robinson was 7-foot-1 with a 30-inch waste, he didn't have the body type to be great posting up. I'm not the world's biggest KG fan but I think it's silly when he gets criticized for not ever developing a low-post game. Players who are top heavy and skinny physically can't be great on the block. In the playoffs, having a big with a low-post game was deadly -- especially in the illegal defense era. Today, it's not as deadly due to the zone rules.

3. Bad roster composition. If you have a dominant big, you surround him with three-point shooters to create space for him. The Rockets had the best three-point shooting teams in the NBA in 1994 and 1995. Hell, even the Magic figured out that surrounding D-Ho with three-point shooters would maximize his skills. Robinson was stuck on a team that couldn't shoot so the opposition could double or triple him without care.

4. Coaching was obviously bad. Teammates were pretty damn bad prior to Duncan. Sean Elliott is one of my favorite players ever but he was massively overrated. A two-time All-Star who never had a PER above 16.3? WTF, that doesn't even make sense in retrospect. :lol Leonard as a rookie had a higher PER than Elliott ever had. Robinson's best teammate during his prime was Rodman ... and he wasn't even interested in playing basketball.



I see merit in claims that Robinson didn't have a killer instinct or whatever. When you play in the Michael Jordan era and are compared to MJ's competitiveness that bordered on mental illness, Robinson was too self-aware to live up to that standard. But still, if he's in today's NBA, he's probably regarded as an above average competitor.

The redeeming thing for a Robinson fan such as myself is that as advanced stats become better and better, Robinson's legend continues to grow. From RAPM to APM to WS48 to even PER, Robinson grades out as one of the very best regular season players ever ... like in the top five. And if we knew in 1999 what we know now in terms of what wins basketball games, Duncan and Robinson would have been given equal billing. Robinson had the higher PER and WS48 in the regular season and tied Duncan in WS48 in the postseason. Robinson wasn't still in his prime in 1999 but he was probably still a top 5-7 player.


:cry/classyrobinsonfanrant:cry

[DeadlyDynasty]

I give D-Rob a lot of shit but I have to hand it to him for selflessly embellishing his injury for the betterment of the franchise. It takes humility and--like timvp said--"self-awareness" to realize it was never gonna happen with him as the man.

[midnightpulp]

I give D-Rob a lot of shit but I have to hand it to him for selflessly embellishing his injury for the betterment of the franchise. It takes humility and--like timvp said--"self-awareness" to realize it was never gonna happen with him as the man.

Why all the hate for the Admiral? Is it his bible thumping ways?

[DeadlyDynasty]

Why all the hate for the Admiral? Is it his bible thumping ways?

That's a small part of it (Rodman seemed to work on the teams before and after him). I just think he's incredibly over-worshipped by spurfan. If you look at his playoff #'s when he was the man there's almost always a drop-off in production from the regular season. Furthermore, he's lost 4 or 5 playoff series despite having HCA (as the man)--and he never ran into Jordan, the Bad Boys, Showtime, Celts, etc. He was a leader of a team that racked up 55-60 win seasons on the reg and would get unceremoniously bounced from the playoffs

[midnightpulp]

That's a small part of it (Rodman seemed to work on the teams before and after him). I just think he's incredibly over-worshipped by spurfan. If you look at his playoff #'s when he was the man there's almost always a drop-off in production from the regular season. Furthermore, he's lost 4 or 5 playoff series despite having HCA (as the man)--and he never ran into Jordan, the Bad Boys, Showtime, Celts, etc. He was a leader of a team that racked up 55-60 win seasons on the reg and would get unceremoniously bounced from the playoffs

I think the majority of Spurfan worships him more for the person he is :cry class :cry than his contributions as a basketball player. I, for one, am pretty frustrated at the player Robinson wound up becoming (borderline top-25 great) compared to the player he probably should've been (top 10). Yeah, he didn't have the most stacked teams of his era, but don't go out with 20 points per game on .411 shooting in the playoffs when had one of the better regular seasons in history.

[Latarian Milton]

06-07 kobe was the best pure scorer the league has seen since jordan tbh. nigga could score at will back then, even the best scorers (like ray allen and gilbert arenas) could only notch the 60 figure once or twice in their careers, kobe managed to do that quite a few times and even dropped 81pts in a single game

[Cry Havoc]

The most amazing thing about this streak is that you get the idea that LeBron isn't even in top gear. He's doing all of this almost to amuse himself while calmly steering his team to wins. LeBron could easily take over a game and score 50 if he wanted to, but why? What's the point? Probably by his 2nd year in the league LeBron already knew something that Kobe has never learned -- getting teammates as involved as possible wins games down the road.

I mean, come on people. You're saying a guy who's scoring 30 a night and shooting over 60% with relative ease couldn't kick in into high gear and hang another 20 points on a team if he took his shooting % down to 50-55%? Please. :lol LeBron hasn't been coasting, but he isn't playing at 100% of his ability right now, either. He's taking the game as it comes to him and not forcing anything. Basically the polar opposite of what Kobe did during his equally impressive run.

[JamStone]

nobody that I can think of in today's game besides a healthy bynum if given the touches. all i can think of are centers like shaq that can do something like that

Likely it would have to be a big man. Dwight Howard did have a similar stretch of 5 games in February 2011 where he averaged 31 points on 74% shooting. Carlos Boozer came close a couple times in Utah. It's obviously more impressive with LeBron because it's not all dunks like Dwight or pick-and-pop open jumpers like Boozer. But a 5 game stretch like that is possible and has been done and done recently. If Durant is really feeling it, I could see him coming close to that for a 5 game stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if Dirk did it at some point in his prime in the mid 2000s. Dwyane Wade had a close 4 game stretch in the 2006 playoffs against the Pistons. I think it's more doable than 4 straight games of 50+ points. Other than Kobe, the only other player in recent years that I think could score 50+ points in 4 consecutive games is Allen Iverson.



Lebron, because his team is better. He is fueling his team to play great team basketball. Kobe was just racking up impressive stats with little substance behind it.

You also have to consider the sustainability of the streak. Not even Kobe could average 50 over a whole season, but Lebron could maintain this level of efficiency from here til June.

I wouldn't say that Kobe's stretch had little substance to it. At the time, the Lakers were fighting for a playoff spot in late March and coming off a 7 game losing streak when Kobe rattled off those stretch of games. Without it, the Lakers probably don't make the playoffs that season. And more to the point, LeBron play has fueled his team but he actually has a good team around him. When Kobe had his stretch of games, he was basically doing it by himself with little to no help from teammates and against teams whose sole focus defensively was to stop Kobe.

If LeBron maintains this type of efficiency in the last 30 or so games to the end of the season, I would argue that it will be the greatest individual season in the history of the league because he would likely end up averaging over 30 points at or around 60% FG shooting as a wing player in today's NBA. The Wilt 50 PPG season and Oscar's triple double season would be the only seasons arguably better and if you consider era, they probably wouldn't be.

[spurraider21]

Likely it would have to be a big man. Dwight Howard did have a similar stretch of 5 games in February 2011 where he averaged 31 points on 74% shooting. Carlos Boozer came close a couple times in Utah. It's obviously more impressive with LeBron because it's not all dunks like Dwight or pick-and-pop open jumpers like Boozer. But a 5 game stretch like that is possible and has been done and done recently.

No, and no it hasn't. The only ones to EVER do it for 5 straight games had been Adrian Dantley and Moses Malone. LeBron is the ONLY player to ever do it for 6 straight games. Not even Wilt tbh...

[JamStone]

No, and no it hasn't. The only ones to EVER do it for 5 straight games had been Adrian Dantley and Moses Malone. LeBron is the ONLY player to ever do it for 6 straight games. Not even Wilt tbh...

I just gave you the one that was done recently, Dwight Howard in February 2011 (games from February 11 to February 25).

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2384/year/2011/dwight-howard

Dwight averaged 30.8 PPG on 73.8% FG shooting in that stretch of 5 games. Seeing how in the original post, LeBron's FG% was 73.7% and it was rounded up to 74% by DAF, I didn't see a huge issue rounding up Dwight's numbers.

edit: perhaps the other distinction is that Dwight scored 20 points in one of those games, but in DAF's original post, he did say "average."

[ElNono]

I just gave you the one that was done recently, Dwight Howard in February 2011 (games from February 11 to February 25).

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2384/year/2011/dwight-howard

Dwight averaged 30.8 PPG on 73.8% FG shooting in that stretch of 5 games. Seeing how in the original post, LeBron's FG% was 73.7% and it was rounded up to 74% by DAF, I didn't see a huge issue rounding up Dwight's numbers.

edit: perhaps the other distinction is that Dwight scored 20 points in one of those games, but in DAF's original post, he did say "average."

What spurraider pointed out is true, and it's when 'scores 30+ points' on consecutive games, not the average.

ESPN was showing the stat the other night.

[JamStone]

What spurraider pointed out is true, and it's when 'scores 30+ points' on consecutive games, not the average.

ESPN was showing the stat the other night.

Please refer to posts #20 and #22 in this thread where DAF specifically stated AVERAGING 31 points on 74% shooting and to which spurraider responded to, not consecutive games of 30 points on 60% shooting. What he is saying now is not what he was initially responding to when he said nobody else could do.

[Thebesteva]

No need to play Devil's Advocate. I'm not subtly trolling with this comparison or anything. Both 5 game stretches are some of the best I've personally seen, and even I can't decide who was better. Factors working in Kobe's favor are his higher TS%, the amount of shots he took, and the mediocre team he was on.

I, too, probably give the edge to Kobe.

Damn...props Midnight. Also while I respect Lebron's game and think what he is doing is incredible, I think the fact that Kobe's 2006-2007 team was extremely mediocre and he was regularly double teamed in those games makes it very impressive as well.

[ElNono]

Please refer to posts #20 and #22 in this thread where DAF specifically stated AVERAGING 31 points on 74% shooting and to which spurraider responded to, not consecutive games of 30 points on 60% shooting. What he is saying now is not what he was initially responding to when he said nobody else could do.

Jam, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just pointing out where that Dantley and Malone stat came from.

He probably misread the averaging portion of DAF post.

[JamStone]

Jam, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just pointing out what that Dantley and Malone stat came from.

He probably misread the averaging portion of DAF post.

DAF's post was pretty clear. And it included 74% shooting, not 60% shooting, so it is not something that should have been misread.

[z0sa]

I'm sure it'll get scoffed but, whatever, this stretch of games by David Robinson is one of the greatest stretches I've ever seen:

http://oi48.tinypic.com/2wcg1eh.jpg

:wow

The quadruple-double alone was impressive but to have another near quadruple-double in the same time frame followed by a 50-point game. And a ho-hum 34/10/9/4/4 mixed in. All wins despite this starting lineup: Robinson along with Vinny Del Negro, Willie Anderson, Dale Ellis and Terry Cummings :lol

A bigman with no true point guard on the court and no other player in the starting lineup who was even above average ... yet he still posted video game numbers while dragging his team to wins.

Disgusting, tbh.

DRob was garbage that Tim Duncan had to drag to a title.

[spurraider21]

I just gave you the one that was done recently, Dwight Howard in February 2011 (games from February 11 to February 25).

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2384/year/2011/dwight-howard

Dwight averaged 30.8 PPG on 73.8% FG shooting in that stretch of 5 games. Seeing how in the original post, LeBron's FG% was 73.7% and it was rounded up to 74% by DAF, I didn't see a huge issue rounding up Dwight's numbers.

edit: perhaps the other distinction is that Dwight scored 20 points in one of those games, but in DAF's original post, he did say "average."
LeBron's streak is having 6 consecutive 30 point games shooting 60% in each game. OP is wrong if he said average

[Mal]

I've never seen a 7 footer get out on the break that fast. David's athletic gifts shame that monkeyballer Dwight. And he was pretty damn fundamental, too, aside from his post game.

Howard went to NBA straight from HC. He didnt have chance to improve his skill sets or shooting ability. Probably because he is lazy or he thought that power and dunking ability is enough. Now it is too late. And since his athletism declined, giving him 100mln/5 yrs is risky and probably not worth it. But it`s Lakers problem.

To compare him to other big athletic freak - Blake Griffin. I saw Clippers @Knicks and I was really amazed, how Griffin upgraded his shooting skills. Guy must be really working on it. He`s still young, but good to see, that he didnt stop only on dunking.

[Latarian Milton]

bron is the most complete player to ever play this game imho. he can certainly score 40+ points on a given night when he wants but he's found a better way to help his team. while kobe is made to be a scorer and there's not really much else he can do as good as scoring on the court imho

[TDMVPDPOY]

u guys oozing over kobes scoring streak....give any volume shooter on a 1 man team those sort of touches

[dunkman]

When you constantly take 30-40 fga at some point a player with catch a hot streak. LeBron is playing better limiting his fga at around 15, sharing the ball. The Lakers team are always reasonable stacked and they were coached by Phil. It's still amazing Kobe had stamina to play like that, but tbh I have no doubts MJ would better that with the rule changes that make the life easier for wing players nowdays.

[Brazil]

I think the majority of Spurfan worships him more for the person he is :cry class :cry than his contributions as a basketball player. I, for one, am pretty frustrated at the player Robinson wound up becoming (borderline top-25 great) compared to the player he probably should've been (top 10). Yeah, he didn't have the most stacked teams of his era, but don't go out with 20 points per game on .411 shooting in the playoffs when had one of the better regular seasons in history.

I think the majority of Spurfan worships him because without him there is no Spurs dynasty. He is considered at the cornerstone of the franchise, the first rock of the foundation of the Spurs are today. Obviously Duncan is 110% of the franchise success but for that one needed a starting point and this guy is the Admiral.
A lot of spurs fans living out of San Antonio started to root for the Spurs because of him. Dude was extremely hyped in Europe for instance.

And as you mentioned he is all class :cry except the bible annoying stuff. Yes he was not a great PO performer but he put the Spurs on the map and was key in 99 and 03 titles and a great mentor for Duncan.

[Killakobe81]

Two factors to the OP question.

1. Lebron as a player is more impressive than Kobe during his streak because LEbron makes it look easy and without Wade's contributions this could easily be a 40 point streak though I do believe his FG% would suffer a bit if he did that ...

2. What Kobe actually did is more impressive because of the fact he is NOT as gifted athletically as Bron and played with lessor players. Kobe had to work for those points even if scoring comes natural for him ... LEbron some nights looks like he is Senior all city player moving back down to JV ... he just has no competition. As many have said he makes Wade a HOF all NBA player look like a regular all-star ...even though Wade is benefiting from his greatness. JAmes is wearing teams down for 3 quarters and Wade is providing the knockout blows ...

Though both streaks helped their teams win ... I Would rather have (Accomplish) Lebron's which I think why most favor him as a player because Lebron playes a more team style of play. Honestly to max out both players potential Kobe (who is no Lebron as a paaer but a great one when he does it), could use more of Lebron's mindset ...and without a doubt if James had Kobe's he would of beat the Mavs in 2011 and probably at least win one game against the Spurs in 2007 ...Kobe could of definitely used Lebron's mindset in 2004 and earlier this year ...

[Killakobe81]

Complicated answer, obviously but leading reasons:

1. Robinson played in a poor era for his skillset. If he plays during Showtime or in today's game, he's unstoppable. Unfortunately for him, he played in a slow era that allowed tons of contact. Bad luck.

2. His lack of low-post game hurt. But, really, it wasn't his fault. Robinson was 7-foot-1 with a 30-inch waste, he didn't have the body type to be great posting up. I'm not the world's biggest KG fan but I think it's silly when he gets criticized for not ever developing a low-post game. Players who are top heavy and skinny physically can't be great on the block. In the playoffs, having a big with a low-post game was deadly -- especially in the illegal defense era. Today, it's not as deadly due to the zone rules.

3. Bad roster composition. If you have a dominant big, you surround him with three-point shooters to create space for him. The Rockets had the best three-point shooting teams in the NBA in 1994 and 1995. Hell, even the Magic figured out that surrounding D-Ho with three-point shooters would maximize his skills. Robinson was stuck on a team that couldn't shoot so the opposition could double or triple him without care.

4. Coaching was obviously bad. Teammates were pretty damn bad prior to Duncan. Sean Elliott is one of my favorite players ever but he was massively overrated. A two-time All-Star who never had a PER above 16.3? WTF, that doesn't even make sense in retrospect. :lol Leonard as a rookie had a higher PER than Elliott ever had. Robinson's best teammate during his prime was Rodman ... and he wasn't even interested in playing basketball.



I see merit in claims that Robinson didn't have a killer instinct or whatever. When you play in the Michael Jordan era and are compared to MJ's competitiveness that bordered on mental illness, Robinson was too self-aware to live up to that standard. But still, if he's in today's NBA, he's probably regarded as an above average competitor.

The redeeming thing for a Robinson fan such as myself is that as advanced stats become better and better, Robinson's legend continues to grow. From RAPM to APM to WS48 to even PER, Robinson grades out as one of the very best regular season players ever ... like in the top five. And if we knew in 1999 what we know now in terms of what wins basketball games, Duncan and Robinson would have been given equal billing. Robinson had the higher PER and WS48 in the regular season and tied Duncan in WS48 in the postseason. Robinson wasn't still in his prime in 1999 but he was probably still a top 5-7 player.


:cry/classyrobinsonfanrant:cry

But the thig was, David was a favorite of the early advanced stats guys. It's just more of the general NBA fan that has jumped onboard as the Hollinger's, Simmons and Lowe's have given the numbers a "voice". David was an amazing player. I remember him winning the Schick award at least twice IIRC (based on early advanced metrics) ...

I think one of the most incredible visuals from the Dream team video archives is watching David play. As amazing as MJ is/was I think you can make a very good case that on a team with a near prime MJ, Pippen, Ewing, Chuck Stocton, Drexler that David was THE BEST ATHLETE of the bunch. Guy could change ends like a gazelle, had good hops and was strong despite his slender muscular frame. His body fat% had to be miniscule ... but I just dont think if ever had that killer instinct. it may have taken James a while but I think he has developed it. David never had to because duncan had that fire for him and led him there. I do think many here diminish David's contributions to the 1st 2 titles to prop up Timmy which is so unfair. sure duncan was the leader on offense but David defended Shaq and any other big while duncan played the help defender role. That is not a knock and was a great strategy by Pop but David gets little credit for the Duncan's first two titles when you can argue he played a defensive role similar to Pippen and offensive one similar to Pau Gasol.

[Killakobe81]

MY bad it was not the Schick but the IBM award and David has won the most which will never be broken since they no longer give that award ... he won in Holds record for most IBM Awards (1990, '91, '94, '95, '96)

And he won them during MJ's Ewing, Chuck's and Malone's prime. Of course he is not a better player than MJ (which is part of why I hate dislike those that use advanced metrics to decide debates) but the guy was impressive.

[ambchang]

It really is sad that Spurs fans who probably never even watched David Robinson play had to chime in on these shitty takes.

You know what happened to Hakeem when he had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He averaged 18.5ppg on 44% shooting in the playoffs.

You know what happened when Kareem had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He avearaged 22.8ppg on 43% shooting.

You know what happened when Shaq had a bad supporting cast in his prime? Oh wait, that never happened, but when the opposition decides to zone in on Shaq and stop him, he averaged 21.5ppg in an entire series.

Give me one single big man who has been successful with no outside help? Can't? I couldn't either, because none existed.

And the comment on Rodman, he went off pretty bad in his last years in Detroit after Daly left, he went nuts in Dallas and LA. People attribute him being under control in Detroit and Chicago because of Isiah Thomas and Michael Jordan despite the fact that Rodman credited Daly and Jackson in his teary HoF speech for understanding him and reaching out to him. Who do you have in San Antonio? You have Bob Hill, one of the worst coaches to ever win 60+ games in a season.

Speaking of which, the Spurs over achieved with those 55/60 win seasons. You look at that supporting cast, it has no business finishing with a top 6 seed in those stacked Western conferences.

You know what happened when Kobe had that supporting cast? He either missed the playoffs, or averaged 22 ppg and got bounced in the first round and went nuclear on management.

You know what happened when Hakeem had a similar (but better) supporting cast? He missed the playoffs (his injury also had something to do with it), became a gigantic drama queen, or averaged 18.5 ppg and got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

You know what Michael Jordan did with a supporting cast like that? He got bounced in the playoffs after leading his team to 40-45 wins a season (still phenomenal individually though, that's why he's GOAT).

The only one I can think of who did well both team-wise and individually in the playoffs with a supporting cast of that shit quality is Lebron James, and that's in a historically weak Eastern Conference, and Lebron has GOAT potential.

Learn your history before you open your goddamn mouth and sound like a bloody idiot.

[ambchang]

Oh, and to answer the original question, Kobe's was more impressive. While I am not a fan of chucking, Kobe didn't have much of a choice back then. It was either chuck, or let Smush Parker brick a wide open 18 footer.

[Killakobe81]

It really is sad that Spurs fans who probably never even watched David Robinson play had to chime in on these shitty takes.

You know what happened to Hakeem when he had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He averaged 18.5ppg on 44% shooting in the playoffs.

You know what happened when Kareem had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He avearaged 22.8ppg on 43% shooting.

You know what happened when Shaq had a bad supporting cast in his prime? Oh wait, that never happened, but when the opposition decides to zone in on Shaq and stop him, he averaged 21.5ppg in an entire series.

Give me one single big man who has been successful with no outside help? Can't? I couldn't either, because none existed.

And the comment on Rodman, he went off pretty bad in his last years in Detroit after Daly left, he went nuts in Dallas and LA. People attribute him being under control in Detroit and Chicago because of Isiah Thomas and Michael Jordan despite the fact that Rodman credited Daly and Jackson in his teary HoF speech for understanding him and reaching out to him. Who do you have in San Antonio? You have Bob Hill, one of the worst coaches to ever win 60+ games in a season.

Speaking of which, the Spurs over achieved with those 55/60 win seasons. You look at that supporting cast, it has no business finishing with a top 6 seed in those stacked Western conferences.

You know what happened when Kobe had that supporting cast? He either missed the playoffs, or averaged 22 ppg and got bounced in the first round and went nuclear on management.

You know what happened when Hakeem had a similar (but better) supporting cast? He missed the playoffs (his injury also had something to do with it), became a gigantic drama queen, or averaged 18.5 ppg and got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

You know what Michael Jordan did with a supporting cast like that? He got bounced in the playoffs after leading his team to 40-45 wins a season (still phenomenal individually though, that's why he's GOAT).

The only one I can think of who did well both team-wise and individually in the playoffs with a supporting cast of that shit quality is Lebron James, and that's in a historically weak Eastern Conference, and Lebron has GOAT potential.

Learn your history before you open your goddamn mouth and sound like a bloody idiot.

Like I have said repeatedly when Tim or Kobe is not the subject Amb is one of the best posters on here ...
That being said, I agree some of the Spur possters on here are some of the most dismissive of their own franchise's history. People upstairs shit on Parker not sure eaxectly why ... maybe because he stole one of Tim's Finals MVp's, or banged Berry's wife or because they worship at the church of Manu ... but the hate he gets from Spur fans (Pop too is crazy) .

Also when Spur fans on here actually rank Shaq over Tim (they should no better) that drives me crazier when they put Duncan over Kobe (because like I said to me it's close no matter which way you lean). How can a big that won just as many titles as Shaq without a Kobe or Wade at his side (though David, and later Tony and Manu are no slouches) not be considered the greater player? a 2000 peak SHAq shits on everybody (Kobe included) since MJ (and maybe Lebron this year) ... but how often was Shaq at that peak?! 2000, the 2001 playoffs and 2002 Finals that is it. Duncan maintained his elite level of play far more consistently than O'neal but there are Spur fans that will accept Shaq's ranking over Tim. I lived in L.A. and I dont see it. OF course it is close ... but I take duncan. I think Shaq/Kobe/Duncan is close too ... but I go:

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq

[Killakobe81]

oh and as great as David was in the regular season ... and he was plenty good by any measure and one of the most efficient players in NBA history ... those playoffs and Olympics failures (pre-dream team) has tarnished a great legacy .... Barkley's and Olajawon's career signature moments come at David's expense unfortunately ...

I think Ewing suffers the same ... the Pippen and MJ dunks diminishes him as well ...

[StrengthAndHonor]

I don't think Dunks can diminish a player. It was Patrick's lack of success that hurts his career.

[ambchang]

KK81, you are not baiting me into this one again.

[Killakobe81]

KK81, you are not baiting me into this one again.

LOL Im not bating you amb, I told you we will have a real long, well reasoned debate on this once they are both done. WE both have made our cases so no need to re-hash it AGAIN. Nothing has changed since we had our last real debate on the matter (these small ones lately dont count).

IF Kobe misses the playoffs or Duncan makes Finals then we can revisit prior to their retirement ... but middling seasons for both while the King Lebron James reigns should not change the score for either.

[Killakobe81]

I don't think Dunks can diminish a player. It was Patrick's lack of success that hurts his career.

You can say what you want ... for intelligent not easily swayed by ESPN fans I agree with you.

But if you were to ask general, non Knick or Spur fans what the FIRST image is of Ewing/Robinson I bet at least 80% will say Pippens nuts on Ewing and MJ Dunking and staring first. When the first image of a great player is another great player embarassing them ...that has an effect. Robinson was a great player too and sure his playoff lack of success was a huge part of the perception but the highlights of Olajawon using his post moves on David show far more often than the graceful finishes by Robinsion ...and I think it is the reason Olajawon is a bit overrated and David underrated.

Think about it most NBA playoffs/Finals montages include those plays. ...That's just the way it is. Isiah is one of the best PG's I have ever seen and is woefully underrated imho ... and I think part of it is his most played NBA highlight is .... "and Bird steals it". that is great for Bird but sucks for Thomas.

Before that play his machine gun dribble (aginst the Knicks?!) was the highlight ... I remember being showed the most. Heck for some (me included) the memory of the sore ankle game in the Finals (in a loss) helps erase some if not ALL of the Bird play tbh ... but I just THINK that the image of him choking agaist the Celts works against him ...because you see that play anywhere from 4 to 7 times EVERY June ....

[jeebus]

9 + 20 + 21 = 50

class

[StrengthAndHonor]

You can say what you want ... for intelligent not easily swayed by ESPN fans I agree with you.

But if you were to ask general, non Knick or Spur fans what the FIRST image is of Ewing/Robinson I bet at least 80% will say Pippens nuts on Ewing and MJ Dunking and staring first. When the first image of a great player is another great player embarassing them ...that has an effect. Robinson was a great player too and sure his playoff lack of success was a huge part of the perception but the highlights of Olajawon using his post moves on David show far more often than the graceful finishes by Robinsion ...and I think it is the reason Olajawon is a bit overrated and David underrated.

Think about it most NBA playoffs/Finals montages include those plays. ...That's just the way it is. Isiah is one of the best PG's I have ever seen and is woefully underrated imho ... and I think part of it is his most played NBA highlight is .... "and Bird steals it". that is great for Bird but sucks for Thomas.

Before that play his machine gun dribble (aginst the Knicks?!) was the highlight ... I rememebred most. Heck for some (me included) the memory of the sore ankle game in the Finals (in a loss) helps erase some if not ALL of the Bird play t ... but I just THINK that the image of him choking agaist the Celts works against him ...because you see that play anywhere from 4 to 7 times EVERY June ....

Yeah. I can see your point. In hindsight those are some lasting memories of Ewing's career and its unfortunate because he was a bad man. Sports fans in general are some of the worst fanatics and they absolutely take pleasure in being revisionist and illogical.

[Killakobe81]

Oh and Isiah's machine gun dribble highlight may have been against the Hawks if not the Knicks ... (doing it from memory)

[Jumi]

It really is sad that Spurs fans who probably never even watched David Robinson play had to chime in on these shitty takes.

You know what happened to Hakeem when he had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He averaged 18.5ppg on 44% shooting in the playoffs.

You know what happened when Kareem had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He avearaged 22.8ppg on 43% shooting.

You know what happened when Shaq had a bad supporting cast in his prime? Oh wait, that never happened, but when the opposition decides to zone in on Shaq and stop him, he averaged 21.5ppg in an entire series.

Give me one single big man who has been successful with no outside help? Can't? I couldn't either, because none existed.

And the comment on Rodman, he went off pretty bad in his last years in Detroit after Daly left, he went nuts in Dallas and LA. People attribute him being under control in Detroit and Chicago because of Isiah Thomas and Michael Jordan despite the fact that Rodman credited Daly and Jackson in his teary HoF speech for understanding him and reaching out to him. Who do you have in San Antonio? You have Bob Hill, one of the worst coaches to ever win 60+ games in a season.

Speaking of which, the Spurs over achieved with those 55/60 win seasons. You look at that supporting cast, it has no business finishing with a top 6 seed in those stacked Western conferences.

You know what happened when Kobe had that supporting cast? He either missed the playoffs, or averaged 22 ppg and got bounced in the first round and went nuclear on management.

You know what happened when Hakeem had a similar (but better) supporting cast? He missed the playoffs (his injury also had something to do with it), became a gigantic drama queen, or averaged 18.5 ppg and got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

You know what Michael Jordan did with a supporting cast like that? He got bounced in the playoffs after leading his team to 40-45 wins a season (still phenomenal individually though, that's why he's GOAT).

The only one I can think of who did well both team-wise and individually in the playoffs with a supporting cast of that shit quality is Lebron James, and that's in a historically weak Eastern Conference, and Lebron has GOAT potential.

Learn your history before you open your goddamn mouth and sound like a bloody idiot.

Couldn't have said it better!

[Jumi]

Oh yeah, Kobe!

[TDMVPDPOY]

06/07 kobes prime my ass, dude was nothing more than a 1man team shooting for the record books

might as well compared his team with other 1man teams over the history of the nba

[ambchang]

Ewing, to me, has been pretty overrated over the years, and let me first say where I think the public ranks him – right alongside David Robinson.

However ...

From a statistical perspective, Robinson destroys Ewing.

From an awards perspective, Robinson destroys Ewing (MVP, DPoY, All-NBA, All D)

From a H2H perspective, Robinson destroys Ewing.

In terms of team accomplishments, Ewing got to the finals in a weak Eastern conference with a team that is about 20 times more loaded than anything Robinson ever had before Tim Duncan came along. Oakley, John Starks, then later on Latrell Sprewell, Allan Houston, these are all players who are better than Robinson had in his prime (Elliott, Avery Johnson, Dennis Rodman – SA version).

Ewing did poorly in the H2H with Hakeem in the 94 Finals, he averaged 18.9 ppg on 36% shooting, and that is with a totally stacked team, and shooters like Starks and Hubert Davis playing next to him.

Ewing should be ranked way below Robinson, Barkley, and should be ranked alongside that overrated pedophile in terms of overall players.

[DeadlyDynasty]

It really is sad that Spurs fans who probably never even watched David Robinson play had to chime in on these shitty takes.

You know what happened to Hakeem when he had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He averaged 18.5ppg on 44% shooting in the playoffs.

You know what happened when Kareem had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He avearaged 22.8ppg on 43% shooting.

You know what happened when Shaq had a bad supporting cast in his prime? Oh wait, that never happened, but when the opposition decides to zone in on Shaq and stop him, he averaged 21.5ppg in an entire series.

Give me one single big man who has been successful with no outside help? Can't? I couldn't either, because none existed.

And the comment on Rodman, he went off pretty bad in his last years in Detroit after Daly left, he went nuts in Dallas and LA. People attribute him being under control in Detroit and Chicago because of Isiah Thomas and Michael Jordan despite the fact that Rodman credited Daly and Jackson in his teary HoF speech for understanding him and reaching out to him. Who do you have in San Antonio? You have Bob Hill, one of the worst coaches to ever win 60+ games in a season.

Speaking of which, the Spurs over achieved with those 55/60 win seasons. You look at that supporting cast, it has no business finishing with a top 6 seed in those stacked Western conferences.

You know what happened when Kobe had that supporting cast? He either missed the playoffs, or averaged 22 ppg and got bounced in the first round and went nuclear on management.

You know what happened when Hakeem had a similar (but better) supporting cast? He missed the playoffs (his injury also had something to do with it), became a gigantic drama queen, or averaged 18.5 ppg and got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

You know what Michael Jordan did with a supporting cast like that? He got bounced in the playoffs after leading his team to 40-45 wins a season (still phenomenal individually though, that's why he's GOAT).

The only one I can think of who did well both team-wise and individually in the playoffs with a supporting cast of that shit quality is Lebron James, and that's in a historically weak Eastern Conference, and Lebron has GOAT potential.

Learn your history before you open your goddamn mouth and sound like a bloody idiot.

Nothing gives ambchang uterine cramps quite like denigrating his bible-thumping, playoff-choking hero:lmao

[Ashy Larry]

probably Bryant ...... James is still gangsta though .....

[StrengthAndHonor]

Nothing gives ambchang uterine cramps quite like denigrating his bible-thumping, playoff-choking hero:lmao

Dude was treating this thread like Game 7 writing an essay :lol

[JamStone]

LeBron's streak is having 6 consecutive 30 point games shooting 60% in each game. OP is wrong if he said average

that was never what we were talking about. read your post #22 in this thread on page 1. you responded to AVERAGING 31 points on 74% shooting. consecutive games of 30 points on 60% shooting was never in this discussion. you just all of a sudden decided to change what we were talking about.

[ambchang]

Nothing gives ambchang uterine cramps quite like denigrating his bible-thumping, playoff-choking hero:lmao

I don't have a problem with Laker fans underrating David Robinson, because:
a) You are a Laker fan, not a Spurs fan, you are not supposed to know the history of the Spurs. What I find amazing is that I know more about the Lakers past than most Laker fans, but that leads to point b)
b) you are a laker fans, not a basketball fan, you are not supposed to know the history of basketball in general.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Dude was treating this thread like Game 7 writing an essay :lol

This guy gets really passionate about Robinson...makes me all misty-eyed with his Davey soliloquies. He didn't perform when his team needed him the most. Thankfully, Tim Duncan taught twinkletoes how to win in the playoffs.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I don't have a problem with Laker fans underrating David Robinson, because:
a) You are a Laker fan, not a Spurs fan, you are not supposed to know the history of the Spurs. What I find amazing is that I know more about the Lakers past than most Laker fans, but that leads to point b)
b) you are a laker fans, not a basketball fan, you are not supposed to know the history of basketball in general.
I'd love to overrate DRob like you do, but ive just seen too many times where Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, et al used him as a jizztrough in the playoffs

[ambchang]

Dude was treating this thread like Game 7 writing an essay :lol

You write essays during Game 7s? No wonder your basketball takes are so shitty, you should watch the game instead of writing essays during the playoffs, makes you more knowledgeable on the subject of basketball and prevents you from spewing bad takes on the Internets.

True talk.

[ambchang]

I'd love to overrate DRob like you do, but ive just seen too many times where Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, et al used him as a jizztrough in the playoffs

You mean when Shaq couldn't beat the Spurs in his first 2 years in the league? Or how he outscored Shaq in 6 out of 8 meetings up till 1998 (Robinson hurt his back in 96, but still managed to outscore Shaq a few times after that career altering injury).

Or how Robinson held Shaq to 21.5 ppg in an entire series? Or a sweep in 99 (holding Shaq to 23.75ppg on 49% shooting), then another win in 03?

How about the difference between Avery Johnson/Vinny Del Negro and Kenny Smith/Clyde Drexler/Sam Cassell? You know, one of them consists of a PG who made 1 career 3PTer, while the other one includes a HoF, an all-star, and all three are better 3 pt shooters?

And how Malone's PG is the all-time assists and steals record holder, while Avery Johnson is more famous for destroying a mid-00's Mavs team than for playing?

Oh wait, sorry, you are a clueless Laker fan, who actually thinks individuals win championships, not teams.

[ambchang]

This guy gets really passionate about Robinson...makes me all misty-eyed with his Davey soliloquies. He didn't perform when his team needed him the most. Thankfully, Tim Duncan taught twinkletoes how to win in the playoffs.

LOL, not addressing the failures of Kobe, Hakeem, and KAJ when they had supporting casts as bad as Robinson's.

[DeadlyDynasty]

"True talk," Robinson was indeed one of the best regular season players ever. Guy jusf had a knack for compiling stats in the reg season. The NBA's Vinny Testaverde

[StrengthAndHonor]

You write essays during Game 7s? No wonder your basketball takes are so shitty, you should watch the game instead of writing essays during the playoffs, makes you more knowledgeable on the subject of basketball and prevents you from spewing bad takes on the Internets.

True talk.
:lol @ ranking Moses Malone over Duncan and Shaq. I can't take you seriously. Sorry.:lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

You mean when Shaq couldn't beat the Spurs in his first 2 years in the league? Or how he outscored Shaq in 6 out of 8 meetings up till 1998 (Robinson hurt his back in 96, but still managed to outscore Shaq a few times after that career altering injury).

Or how Robinson held Shaq to 21.5 ppg in an entire series? Or a sweep in 99 (holding Shaq to 23.75ppg on 49% shooting), then another win in 03?

How about the difference between Avery Johnson/Vinny Del Negro and Kenny Smith/Clyde Drexler/Sam Cassell? You know, one of them consists of a PG who made 1 career 3PTer, while the other one includes a HoF, an all-star, and all three are better 3 pt shooters?

And how Malone's PG is the all-time assists and steals record holder, while Avery Johnson is more famous for destroying a mid-00's Mavs team than for playing?

Oh wait, sorry, you are a clueless Laker fan, who actually thinks individuals win championships, not teams.
So he did all that and still couldnt lead his team to an NBA Finals? Yikes.

[ambchang]

:lol @ ranking Moses Malone over Duncan and Shaq. I can't take you seriously. Sorry.:lol

:lol Not even having watched Malone in his prime, or even when he was over his prime, and some how trying to have an opinion :lol

[ambchang]

So he did all that and still couldnt lead his team to an NBA Finals? Yikes.

You mean he should have been management and forced trades and be a poisonous teammate? Yikes!

[DeadlyDynasty]

You mean he should have been management and forced trades and be a poisonous teammate? Yikes!

It worked:lol

Write more excuses though. If you're persistent enough, you may just be able to eradicate all his playoff failures from the history books:tu

[ambchang]

It worked:lol

Write more excuses though. If you're persistent enough, you may just be able to eradicate all his playoff failures from the history books:tu

:lol Can't read
:lol Takes the media's shitty view and take it as his own
:lol Not understanding basketball is a team sport
:lol Failed to acknowledge shit series from Shaq, Hakeem, KAJ and Kobe
:lol Doesn't understand constant double and triple teams affect a player
:lol Thinking basketball is tennis
:lol Thinking Kobe's going drama queen was why the Lakers can collude
:lol LA Sterns

[DeadlyDynasty]

Well that was a fun meltdown, you outdid yourself again:lol

[ambchang]

Beating your ass is a meltdown now?

I suppose a lot of people have meltdowns then.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Beating your ass is a meltdown now?

I suppose a lot of people have meltdowns then.

There's only one person in this thread writing walls of text trying to convince themselves their hero isn't a loser.

[ambchang]

There is one person in this thread unable to come up with any substantial arguments and only come up with lame insults.

[ambchang]

:lol Having no arguments is winning
:lol Having claims to backup arguments is meltdown

[DeadlyDynasty]

There is one person in this thread unable to come up with any substantial arguments and only come up with lame insults.

Yeah, the "it was everybody else's fault!" argument (which is what your bullshit ultimately amounts to) is really convincing. It's also great how you draw upon Kobe (your favorite subject to talk about) when comparing them. "Kobe's a poisonous teammate!:cry". That may be so, but he's never alienated one of the best players on his team through god-mongering.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Last question, ambchang: how many playoff series with HCA did a David Robinson-led Spurs team lose? No lame excuses, just give me the number.

[roycrikside]

Complicated answer, obviously but leading reasons:

1. Robinson played in a poor era for his skillset. If he plays during Showtime or in today's game, he's unstoppable. Unfortunately for him, he played in a slow era that allowed tons of contact. Bad luck.

2. His lack of low-post game hurt. But, really, it wasn't his fault. Robinson was 7-foot-1 with a 30-inch waste, he didn't have the body type to be great posting up. I'm not the world's biggest KG fan but I think it's silly when he gets criticized for not ever developing a low-post game. Players who are top heavy and skinny physically can't be great on the block. In the playoffs, having a big with a low-post game was deadly -- especially in the illegal defense era. Today, it's not as deadly due to the zone rules.

3. Bad roster composition. If you have a dominant big, you surround him with three-point shooters to create space for him. The Rockets had the best three-point shooting teams in the NBA in 1994 and 1995. Hell, even the Magic figured out that surrounding D-Ho with three-point shooters would maximize his skills. Robinson was stuck on a team that couldn't shoot so the opposition could double or triple him without care.

4. Coaching was obviously bad. Teammates were pretty damn bad prior to Duncan. Sean Elliott is one of my favorite players ever but he was massively overrated. A two-time All-Star who never had a PER above 16.3? WTF, that doesn't even make sense in retrospect. :lol Leonard as a rookie had a higher PER than Elliott ever had. Robinson's best teammate during his prime was Rodman ... and he wasn't even interested in playing basketball.



I see merit in claims that Robinson didn't have a killer instinct or whatever. When you play in the Michael Jordan era and are compared to MJ's competitiveness that bordered on mental illness, Robinson was too self-aware to live up to that standard. But still, if he's in today's NBA, he's probably regarded as an above average competitor.

The redeeming thing for a Robinson fan such as myself is that as advanced stats become better and better, Robinson's legend continues to grow. From RAPM to APM to WS48 to even PER, Robinson grades out as one of the very best regular season players ever ... like in the top five. And if we knew in 1999 what we know now in terms of what wins basketball games, Duncan and Robinson would have been given equal billing. Robinson had the higher PER and WS48 in the regular season and tied Duncan in WS48 in the postseason. Robinson wasn't still in his prime in 1999 but he was probably still a top 5-7 player.


:cry/classyrobinsonfanrant:cry

I'll take it one step further, LJ: Though history will remember Duncan as the better player (and rightly so), Robinson actually has a higher peak (93-95) than anything Duncan approached. At his peak Robinson was a 30 PER guy, while Duncan maxed out at 27.

The reason for this, mainly, is that Duncan was robbed of ever being able to attain his true athletic peak by that knee injury he suffered in 2000.

For typical athletes, the prime of their careers are from ages 27-29 because that's when their athleticism and their IQ/wisdom/experience hit their apex. While generally an athlete hits his physical prime around 24-25, they don't yet accumulate the knowledge/wisdom to truly harness their gifts to the max. Obviously the opposite is also true in that while an athlete can theoretically accumulate wisdom and knowledge about their craft forever, their bodies betray them too much physically after 29 to make that acquired experience useful in the "superstar" sense.

Duncan hit his physical peak as an NBA player at 22, the 1999 season. After that he couldn't ever leap the same again and couldn't ever aspire to the super-athlete status one needs to be to get to that 30 PER plateau. That Duncan has achieved all he has is because his fundamentals/drive/IQ/competitiveness are all off the charts (far exceeding Robinson's).

However as awesome as Duncan was to behold in 2002-2003, we as basketball fans were robbed of seeing him reach his true potential, as scary as that sounds.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Robinson was a great athlete and regular season player...much like Vince Carter. It's just a shame he had Romo-like tendencies in meaningful games.

[ambchang]

Yeah, the "it was everybody else's fault!" argument (which is what your bullshit ultimately amounts to) is really convincing. It's also great how you draw upon Kobe (your favorite subject to talk about) when comparing them. "Kobe's a poisonous teammate!:cry". That may be so, but he's never alienated one of the best players on his team through god-mongering.

favorite subject to talk about) when comparing them. "Kobe's a poisonous teammate!:cry". That may be so, but he's never alienated one of the best players on his team through god-mongering.[/QUOTE]

You mean you did not read any of the arguments about how Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe and KAJ sucked with subpar teammates?

You mean you still haven't figured out that basketball is a team sport?

It's also great that you jumped to Kobe immediately, because I was also referring to Shaq, KAJ, and Hakeem, as all of them became horrible teammates and forced trades when they had a crap team, but good that you immediately think of Kobe and Kobe only when I mention poisonous teammates despite me mentioning Shaq, KAJ and Hakeem along with Kobe throughout this entire thread.



Last question, ambchang: how many playoff series with HCA did a David Robinson-led Spurs team lose? No lame excuses, just give me the number.
Not sure if you include series where Robinson didn't play. If you include it, then 5, if not, then 4.

But this just shows that you STILL do not get how regular season and playoffs are played very differently.

[024]

looking at just those 5 games, kobe's streak is more impressive. but lebron's streak is not over yet. it's 6 games and counting if you start from the toronto game.

[DeadlyDynasty]

favorite subject to talk about) when comparing them. "Kobe's a poisonous teammate!:cry". That may be so, but he's never alienated one of the best players on his team through god-mongering.



You mean you did not read any of the arguments about how Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe and KAJ sucked with subpar teammates?

You mean you still haven't figured out that basketball is a team sport?

It's also great that you jumped to Kobe immediately, because I was also referring to Shaq, KAJ, and Hakeem, as all of them became horrible teammates and forced trades when they had a crap team, but good that you immediately think of Kobe and Kobe only when I mention poisonous teammates despite me mentioning Shaq, KAJ and Hakeem along with Kobe throughout this entire thread.



Not sure if you include series where Robinson didn't play. If you include it, then 5, if not, then 4.

But this just shows that you STILL do not get how regular season and playoffs are played very differently.

Ok, let's just for a second exclude what his "team" did and explain why his #'s almost always went down when he got to the postseason (as the #1 guy)? Your argument is that it's a team game and he never did shit b/c his team sucked. That still doesn't explain HIS declining #'s in the playoffs. Kobe picked up his play when he was by himself. LeBron picked up his play. If you wanna go down this road I can probably find a dozen more examples of great players elevating their game in the playoffs. Why did Robinson shit the bed when his team needed him?

[StrengthAndHonor]

Well that was a fun meltdown, you outdid yourself again:lol

:lol ambchang is predictable.

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lol Not even having watched Malone in his prime, or even when he was over his prime, and some how trying to have an opinion :lol
There are a lot of respected writers with credentials who has been connected with the game far longer than you. None of them in their right state of mind will put Malone over Duncan and Shaq. Its OK to have an opinion, but when you start calling people out because they don't agree with you then it becomes hilarious. Especially since you don't have any irrefutable evidences other than your favorite "Ive seen him play" statement.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Especially since you don't have any irrefutable evidences other than your favorite "Ive seen him play" statement.

:lolguy sounds like a Vietnam vet..."You don't know, man! You weren't there!"

[StrengthAndHonor]

:rollin

[midnightpulp]

Like I have said repeatedly when Tim or Kobe is not the subject Amb is one of the best posters on here ...
That being said, I agree some of the Spur possters on here are some of the most dismissive of their own franchise's history. People upstairs shit on Parker not sure eaxectly why ... maybe because he stole one of Tim's Finals MVp's, or banged Berry's wife or because they worship at the church of Manu ... but the hate he gets from Spur fans (Pop too is crazy) .

Also when Spur fans on here actually rank Shaq over Tim (they should no better) that drives me crazier when they put Duncan over Kobe (because like I said to me it's close no matter which way you lean). How can a big that won just as many titles as Shaq without a Kobe or Wade at his side (though David, and later Tony and Manu are no slouches) not be considered the greater player? a 2000 peak SHAq shits on everybody (Kobe included) since MJ (and maybe Lebron this year) ... but how often was Shaq at that peak?! 2000, the 2001 playoffs and 2002 Finals that is it. Duncan maintained his elite level of play far more consistently than O'neal but there are Spur fans that will accept Shaq's ranking over Tim. I lived in L.A. and I dont see it. OF course it is close ... but I take duncan. I think Shaq/Kobe/Duncan is close too ... but I go:

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq

Because of his penchant for choking in big playoff games/series. If a team figures out how to take Parker out of his comfort zone, he implodes.

There's been countless times when the Spurs needed a 25 point or more game from him and he responds with one of those 18 points on 7-19 shooting affairs. I appreciate his contributions over the years, but he has never willed the Spurs to a victory in a playoff series against a top team since becoming the "man." And no, '07 doesn't count. Spurs could've sent out Speedy Claxton and still beat the Cavs in 6.

[Latarian Milton]

parker was never the right material to make a franchise player to begin with. he only became the "man" because tim and manu were aging, and when it comes to the real tough matches your still gonna need tim and manu to step up despite them being old. tony is a legit supporting piece on a contender but he's simply not the guy to build your team around imho, and i don't think he has a higher ceiling than gary neal.

[midnightpulp]

parker was never the right material to make a franchise player to begin with. he only became the "man" because tim and manu were aging, and when it comes to the real tough matches your still gonna need tim and manu to step up despite them being old. tony is a legit supporting piece on a contender but he's simply not the guy to build your team around imho, and i don't think he has a higher ceiling than gary neal.

Right on.

[mercos]

Very tough choice. Both streaks are incredible. Gun to my head, I have to take Kobe's streak. Scoring 60 points twice in the span of a week is crazy, especially for a shooting guard. Kobe also played on a far worse team, which means defenses were keying in on him during this stretch. Lebron has D-Wade, who has been playing very well lately. Chris Bosh had a monster game during this stretch as well. With teammates like that, Lebron gets better looks than Kobe did during his run.

[ambchang]

Ok, let's just for a second exclude what his "team" did and explain why his #'s almost always went down when he got to the postseason (as the #1 guy)? Your argument is that it's a team game and he never did shit b/c his team sucked. That still doesn't explain HIS declining #'s in the playoffs. Kobe picked up his play when he was by himself. LeBron picked up his play. If you wanna go down this road I can probably find a dozen more examples of great players elevating their game in the playoffs. Why did Robinson shit the bed when his team needed him?

You didn't know Kobe averaged 22 points a game in a 7 game series when he had a shit team? I am sure I wrote that down at least once in this thread, to which you have posted and responded. Or Hakeem with 18.5 ppg, or KAJ w 22.3 ppg. You mean you responded to points you haven't read and have to have me rehash the Same stuff over and over again?

You didn't know Robinson had a great playoffs in his first two years when he had a point guard who has an outside shot?

Oh shit. I am typing out real basketball arguments so I must be having a meltdown. I should be more like you, not write anything of substance and not read anything.

[ambchang]

:lol ambchang is predictable.

Look, someone with nothing to add and is supporting his troll!

[ambchang]

There are a lot of respected writers with credentials who has been connected with the game far longer than you. None of them in their right state of mind will put Malone over Duncan and Shaq. Its OK to have an opinion, but when you start calling people out because they don't agree with you then it becomes hilarious. Especially since you don't have any irrefutable evidences other than your favorite "Ive seen him play" statement.
Hmmm. If I remembered correctly, I put up my rankings, and you called them "fucking stupid". I am not sure how it was me calling you out and not the other way around. And yes, please ignore all the MVP's, offensive rebounds, incredible stats and accomplishments I have posted in the previous post. I mean. Do you and dd specialize in not reading posts and use the "you never had any arguments" argument?

Seriously. Are both of you comprehensively retarded? Do both of you suffer from some kind of hereditary disease that does not allow you to remember things you wrote a few weeks ago? I really am not getting it.

EDIT: LOL, me calling you out for disagreeing ...

Now that you are getting your ass grilled to the ground, you go all :( But you are mean to me :( trick.

This is the kind if stupid list I loathe. Who the fuck puts Moses above Duncan or Shaq.


You're not convincing anyone lol. Moses doesn't have a better career than Duncan and Shaq. That's fucking stupid.


You came out with a list that deserves explanation. You came up with this shit. Even if I just rely on googling this crap, no one would put Moses above Shaq and Duncan in this exclusive list. I don't need to explain anything. Shaq and Duncan both have better peaks and longevity. I'll stop there and let you figure out the rest.


And how would you know those "respected writers" with credentials were connected with the game far longer than me? Do you know those writers? Do you know what it takes to be a writer? Especially ones in sports?

And what irrefutable evidence? These are sports rankings. What irrefutable evidence do you have of ranking Duncan and Shaq over Malone? For that matter, Jordan over Malone?

BTW, "I have seen him play" statement is much more convincing that "that's fucking stupid" and "I haven't seen him play".

[ambchang]

:lolguy sounds like a Vietnam vet..."You don't know, man! You weren't there!"

And you would know what about nam, may I ask? Do you want to delve into another subject you are clueless on?

[ambchang]

This is the kind if stupid list I loathe. Who the fuck puts Moses above Duncan or Shaq.


You're not convincing anyone lol. Moses doesn't have a better career than Duncan and Shaq. That's fucking stupid.


You came out with a list that deserves explanation. You came up with this shit. Even if I just rely on googling this crap, no one would put Moses above Shaq and Duncan in this exclusive list. I don't need to explain anything. Shaq and Duncan both have better peaks and longevity. I'll stop there and let you figure out the rest.

The more I read your takes, the stupider they become.

Shaq and Duncan both had longer peaks AND longevity than Malone?

Malone played 23 seasons in the league, he averaged 20+ ppg and 11+ rpg for 11 straight seasons, and then another season with 19/10. He had a peak season of 31ppg and 15rpg, of which neither Shaq nor Duncan ever approached. He was All-NBA 8 years straight when he had to go up against Kareem and Bill Walton during his youth, and then Hakeem and Ewing at the end of his career. He beat out KAJ, one of the top 5, if not top 3 best players in the league for All-NBA 1st team 4 times during their respective primes.

Shaq had 10 seasons of 20/11 (non consecutive, broken twice), never averaged over 30 ppg, never averaged over14 rpg (Malone did it 6 times).

Duncan had 8 straight seasons of 20/11 (another few seasons of 18/11, 19/10), never averaged over 30 ppg, never averaged over 13rpg.

Of course there are cases where pace and era comes into play, but at least statistically, Malone was a beast. The only thing that held him back was that he had to go up against teams that features (Magic + Kareem + Worthy), and (Bird + McHale + Parish).

[snickles]

but I just dont think if ever had that killer instinct. it may have taken James a while but I think he has developed it. David never had to because duncan had that fire for him and led him there.

to follow up on that, i remember reading somewhere years ago that, early in his career, robinson treated basketball more like a job. it wasn't something that he loved to do, something that he would give anything for. thats not saying he didn't dedicate himself to the sport, but it wasn't the end-all-be-all that it is to a lot of the greats.

it wasn't until duncan came along, and he was moving towards the end of his career, that he developed the desire and passion for the game. by then his back was giving him problems, and he developed into more of a role player / defensive stopper that he ended his career as.

[ambchang]

That desire and passion argument is bullshit. He was having the time of his life playing with Lucas.

Robinson is one of the rare athletes that would come out and publicly state that there are things more important than your job, and he is right. He sets his sights on his family and beliefs, rather than concentrate on himself and go on some juvenile quest to prove that he is an alpha male.

[Killakobe81]

That desire and passion argument is bullshit. He was having the time of his life playing with Lucas.

Robinson is one of the rare athletes that would come out and publicly state that there are things more important than your job, and he is right. He sets his sights on his family and beliefs, rather than concentrate on himself and go on some juvenile quest to prove that he is an alpha male.

Nothing wrong wih that ... you could say David's priorities are in order and some of the more celebrated stars of his "era" Malone and Bird come to mind ... who had kids they ignored ...And if MJ's HOF speech is any indication, I dont thik he wins any father of the year awards either ...

I think some fans (myself included) get frustrated ....when an atheltic marvel like Robinson, Shaq or even Lebron before the last few years either dont take full advantage of the many gifts God (or nature) gave them ... or it appears we want the title more than they do. Im guessing many of us have played on SOME level and to be good enough to make it and NOT maximize it or not prioritizing a career that has a finte life-span ...draws ire.

Based on the crap people spew on here, David is PROBABLY (the work with his charities, his faith plus I have met him once or twice) a better human being and contributor to society than 99% of fans that post on message boards. But that doesnt change the fact if had Ducan or Kobe's drive he is probably a far greater player ... it's speculative but I saw some of the Dream Team archive video Besides MJ's dominance RObinson's athleticism is the NEXT thing that jumps off the screen ... the guy had GOAT potential (atheltically) do we at least agree on that? David could run like a SF, jump like SG strong as PF but with center height He had pretty good touch out to 15 feet ... his defense was vastly underrated (people usually think of Alonzo, Dikembe and HAkeem before David) and though not a great low post player with "skinny legs" ...he had almost anything you would want in an athlete ...

[Killakobe81]

Best athletes I have ever seen (bball) with my own eyes: (guys I saw play in person ...

1. Lebron
2. MJ
3. David
4. Hakeem
5. Skinny Shaq

[ambchang]

Robinson was no doubt one of the best athlete in the history of the league, but to say that the Spurs won anything of note with him at the helm is due to lack of desire is just untrue.

Being the person that he is, Robinson would be professional in his work regardless of whether he "likes" it or not. He worked on his post up game, had that ugly little half-hook that he added to the arsenal, he played for 6 more seasons with a horribly bad back, he guarded an in prime Shaq during the twilight of his career when he had trouble walking, he gave it his all to the Spurs, and yet because he didn't say the right things, people treat him as not giving 100%.

Again, the Spurs never won anything because the teams were flawed, there's no secret behind it, and I am having trouble understanding why people have trouble understanding it. A dominant big man requires a PG to feed him the ball, and a bunch of outside shooters to spread the floor. Ideally, there would be another big beside him to do the dirty work. When Robinson had two of the three (his rookie year), he and the Spurs did well, when he doesn't (every other year), he and the Spurs doesn't do well.

Avery Johnson, despite his quickness and energy, is relatively easy to defend, leave him open and cut off his passing lanes, and he would become a non-factor. The fact that him making a 15-foot wide open jump shot is some kind of huge story shows you how bad an outside shooter he is. There is no one on the Spurs outside of Robinson who could create a shot. Elliott was very much a great finisher, but he has never been much of a creator, and the way to stop the Spurs is to crowd Robinson because none of the other guys can do anything about it.

Was there something he could improve upon? Sure, his low post game was rightly criticized throughout his career, but he was built more like a very tall SF than a C. Robinson would have been huge successful in today's NBA, but in the grind-it-out 75 point games 90's NBA? His offense could be cut off relatively easily with a collapsed defense.

The reason the league went with all this perimeter based offense in the 00s is because the league has diluted to a point where most teams can be easily shut down as they have only 1 main shot creator, and without rules to encourage passing and flow in the perimeters, as well as make life easier for lesser players out in the open, teams can just hack and bully their way on defense and win these ugly 75-69 contests. Robinson played in that ugly thug-ball era. When you look at the elite teams in those days, every one of them has more than 1 creator:
Bulls - Jordan, Pippen
Knicks - Ewing, Starks
Jazz - Stockton, Malone
Houston - Olajuwon/Drexler (it was mainly Olajuwon in 94, but they had historical 3 pt shooting)
Sonics - Payton/Kemp
Blazers - Drexler/Porter/Robinson
Suns - Barkley/KJ/Dumas when he wasn't high

The only team that does NOT have more than one creator, was the Spurs, and yet Robinson still led them to 55 wins every season.

[Killakobe81]

Robinson was no doubt one of the best athlete in the history of the league, but to say that the Spurs won anything of note with him at the helm is due to lack of desire is just untrue.

Being the person that he is, Robinson would be professional in his work regardless of whether he "likes" it or not. He worked on his post up game, had that ugly little half-hook that he added to the arsenal, he played for 6 more seasons with a horribly bad back, he guarded an in prime Shaq during the twilight of his career when he had trouble walking, he gave it his all to the Spurs, and yet because he didn't say the right things, people treat him as not giving 100%.

Again, the Spurs never won anything because the teams were flawed, there's no secret behind it, and I am having trouble understanding why people have trouble understanding it. A dominant big man requires a PG to feed him the ball, and a bunch of outside shooters to spread the floor. Ideally, there would be another big beside him to do the dirty work. When Robinson had two of the three (his rookie year), he and the Spurs did well, when he doesn't (every other year), he and the Spurs doesn't do well.

Avery Johnson, despite his quickness and energy, is relatively easy to defend, leave him open and cut off his passing lanes, and he would become a non-factor. The fact that him making a 15-foot wide open jump shot is some kind of huge story shows you how bad an outside shooter he is. There is no one on the Spurs outside of Robinson who could create a shot. Elliott was very much a great finisher, but he has never been much of a creator, and the way to stop the Spurs is to crowd Robinson because none of the other guys can do anything about it.

Was there something he could improve upon? Sure, his low post game was rightly criticized throughout his career, but he was built more like a very tall SF than a C. Robinson would have been huge successful in today's NBA, but in the grind-it-out 75 point games 90's NBA? His offense could be cut off relatively easily with a collapsed defense.

The reason the league went with all this perimeter based offense in the 00s is because the league has diluted to a point where most teams can be easily shut down as they have only 1 main shot creator, and without rules to encourage passing and flow in the perimeters, as well as make life easier for lesser players out in the open, teams can just hack and bully their way on defense and win these ugly 75-69 contests. Robinson played in that ugly thug-ball era. When you look at the elite teams in those days, every one of them has more than 1 creator:
Bulls - Jordan, Pippen
Knicks - Ewing, Starks
Jazz - Stockton, Malone
Houston - Olajuwon/Drexler (it was mainly Olajuwon in 94, but they had historical 3 pt shooting)
Sonics - Payton/Kemp
Blazers - Drexler/Porter/Robinson
Suns - Barkley/KJ/Dumas when he wasn't high

The only team that does NOT have more than one creator, was the Spurs, and yet Robinson still led them to 55 wins every season.

Dont think he lacked ANY desire it just burned slower and smaller imho. I mean the guy was a great player just dont believe he maximized his talent. But he had some desire The guy was the POTY and wasa better college player than TIm, Shaq or Hakeem tbh ...though Duncan played in a much tougher conference. You could make a case that David at his peak was the vastly suprior regular season player. and yes Duncan had more help than David ... but David still performed below his own lofty standards when the playoffs rolled around ...while Tim mainatined his lebvel or elevated his game often times. Plenty of great players did not have the help Shaq, MJ etc had yet their numbers went up as they took on MORE responsibility. Whether it be due to being unselfish, christian or lacking instinct there is a reason he did not meet his regular season numbers in the playoffs and I dont think you can explain it ALL by shifting blame to his cast, when sometimes (TMAC for example, or HAkeem pre titles) played better (but won less) without a strong PG or #2 option ...

Im on your side amb, to an extent .... I think David is vastly underrated ....even on a Spurs forum ... but you also seem to make a lot of excuses for him as well. Exucses you dont offer Kobe or other great players you don't admire ...

[ambchang]

There are two ways of stopping a one-man team.

1) Let said player go off, and shut down the other players. Pistons did that vs. the Bulls in the late 80s, and most teams did that with Hakeem in the late 80s. There are two major reasons to choose this route, a) said player couldn't beat you by himself anyways, so you let him go off (T-Mac), or b) you can't shut down said player anyways with the players you have, so you concentrate on the other guys (MJ, Shaq for most of his prime). Hakeem was targeted to be shut down in the 90s playoffs, he shut down he did. When he had that monster series against Dallas in 88, he faced up against a team that was perimeter oriented with mostly James Donaldson in the middle. For Dallas, are you going to collapse your entire defense to leave McCray and Floyd wide open, or are you going to let Hakeem have his, and then shut down the other guys. The Mavs chose the later, and won. Not coincidentally, the only win came when Floyd went absolutely nuts and scored like 40 points.

In the 90's playoffs vs. the Lakers decided to collapse the middle and stop Hakeem. Not surprisingly, Floyd, Maxwell and even Buck Johnson played quite well the entire series. The only win in that series was when Hakeem was the FOURTH leading scorer on his team, which means that it required 3 other guys on the Rockets to beat the Lakers.

In the case of Robinson, it's different. He actually have his best games when outside shots are falling for his teammates, and the reason is simple, teams collapse on him, if his teammates make wide open shots, the opposition has to guard them, thus opening up the lane for Robinson to operate. Take the infamous 95 playoff series against Rockets for example, the Spurs shot 2/8 from 3 in Game 1 with Robinson going 5/17. Next game 4/18 on 3's, Spurs lost again with Robinson going 10/18, his teammates only has to shoot to open up the lane, they don't even have to score). Game 3, 9/19 from 3, Robinson was 10/15, then 4/14 and 6/16, 2/7 and 7/15 and finally 2/7 and 6/17. The Spurs doesn't even have to make a whole lot of three pointers, they just have to shoot so that the opposition has to guard them somewhat, but sometimes, that is too much to ask of them.

b) Another way to stop a 1-man team is to stop that one guy, and let the other guys beat you. You do that when you have a line up that would allow you to stop that one guy, or the other guys on that team is just utter trash. You saw that with those Robinson Spurs, you saw that with the Kobe 05 Lakers, and you saw that even with the Dirk Mavs in 07 vs. the Warriors. The Spurs were absolutely trash outside of Robinson, and unfortunately Robinson could be stopped when an entire team collapse on him. Again using the 95 playoffs, Robinson played very well against the Lakers the previous series, why? Because they had Elden Campbell in the middle instead of the dream, and slow defensive rotations. Does Robinson somehow decided to suck right in the next series? Of course not, it's because the Rockets had a fantastic defensive unit led by Hakeem and multiple double-teamers who can recover quickly to defend the perimeter. The Rockets were younger, faster, better coached, and Robinson got shut down.

I am sure I can explain away some reasons for certain players sucking if I watch their games enough times, but I don't. I do watch a hell lot of Spurs ball though.

[Killakobe81]

Not saying what you wrote lacks merit ...but look at those shooting % in the halfcourt or the post, I get it they collapsed on defense ...
I just think a player or athlete of David's.caliber should still do better. But this another debate we can rest for a while ... Because tbh doesn't matter much to me. I think David is underrated but because other folks on here like him as a person and what he stands for overlook some of his flaws ...its human nature

[ambchang]

Don't get me wrong, his game was most definitely flawed, and not built for the playoffs, he requires a LOT of room to operate. The back to the basket offensive games of, Barkley, McHale, Olajuwon and Shaq are all much better suited to the playoffs than in the regular season, and this made Robinson that much easier to stop. Robinson required a lot of room to operate with his face the basket game from 15 in. Doubling him from 12 to 15 feet and recovering to stop outside shooters is much easier than doubling Hakeem 5 feet from the basket and then recovering that extra 7 to 10 feet.

Robinson was, in many ways, very similar to Dirk Nowitzki, they are unconventional big men who requires a very specific team built around them to succeed in the playoffs. Dirk needs an inside presence and a secondary scorer to give him room to operate, Robinson requires a PG to feed him the ball and shooters to open up the lanes for him. Dirk had it, and won a championship. Robinson never got his.

[Galileo]

I'll take the Danny Jones streak, 20 0f 30 on threes over the first 4 games of the rodeo road trip.

[Brazil]

AmbChang is a very underrated poster tbh

[TDMVPDPOY]

Don't get me wrong, his game was most definitely flawed, and not built for the playoffs, he requires a LOT of room to operate. The back to the basket offensive games of, Barkley, McHale, Olajuwon and Shaq are all much better suited to the playoffs than in the regular season, and this made Robinson that much easier to stop. Robinson required a lot of room to operate with his face the basket game from 15 in. Doubling him from 12 to 15 feet and recovering to stop outside shooters is much easier than doubling Hakeem 5 feet from the basket and then recovering that extra 7 to 10 feet.

Robinson was, in many ways, very similar to Dirk Nowitzki, they are unconventional big men who requires a very specific team built around them to succeed in the playoffs. Dirk needs an inside presence and a secondary scorer to give him room to operate, Robinson requires a PG to feed him the ball and shooters to open up the lanes for him. Dirk had it, and won a championship. Robinson never got his.

robinson teams were mainly 1man teams, alot of 1man teams were never successful anyway

[LkrFan]

Apparently, MJ wasn't impressed by picking Kobe over LeBron. LeBron, predictably, lied through his teeth by saying it doesn't faze him:

hnKdD3B9x54

:downspin:

[midnightpulp]

Apparently, MJ wasn't impressed by picking Kobe over LeBron. LeBron, predictably, lied through his teeth by saying it doesn't faze him:

hnKdD3B9x54

:downspin:

Picked Kirby's "career" over Lebron. The question wasn't about who he would take if he was starting a team or had the better peak.

And MJ is right, can't argue with 3 second banana and 2 lead dog rings vs. 1 lead dog ring.

That said, Kobe ain't never been as good as Kang has this year.

[LkrFan]

Picked Kirby's "career" over Lebron. The question wasn't about who he would take if he was starting a team or had the better peak.

And MJ is right, can't argue with 3 second banana and 2 lead dog rings vs. 1 lead dog ring.

That said, Kobe ain't never been as good as Kang has this year.
All of this is your Laker and Kobe hating opinions. Let you guys tell it, LBJ is already in the running for GOAT and is a bonafide top 10 player right now despite winning once on a stacked team.

[midnightpulp]

All of this is your Laker and Kobe hating opinions. Let you guys tell it, LBJ is already in the running for GOAT and is a bonafide top 10 player right now despite winning once on a stacked team.

And all of that is your Heat and Kang hating opinion. Let you tell it, Lebron is a poor man's Nique who only won because Wade and Bosh carried him kicking-and-screaming to the title.

If Bron can punctuate his amazing year with a great playoff run and championship, he definitely deserves top 10 consideration. He's already a top 10 great talent wise, but doesn't quite yet have the career accomplishments to knock Kobe (the 10th best player of all-time) off the list.

[midnightpulp]

And all of that is your Heat and Kang hating opinion. Let you tell it, Lebron is a poor man's Nique who only won because Wade and Bosh carried him kicking-and-screaming to the title.

If Bron can punctuate his amazing year with a great playoff run and championship, he definitely deserves top 10 consideration. He's already a top 10 great talent wise, but doesn't quite yet have the career accomplishments to knock Kobe (the 10th best player of all-time) off the list.

Slam Magazine's top 10 players of all-time:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant

And yeah, I disagree with it. Kobe's placement is right on, but they need to exchange Wilt with Kareem, Bird with Oscar, and Magic with Shaq.

[Amaso]

Keep in mind 06-07 was the year Kobe was pretty much the only focus of every defense unlike Lebron who had a much easier way to the basket because of the quality of his teammates.



The streak however doesn't show who was the better player. Its obvious Lebron is above and beyond Kobe then and especially now, but in terms of scoring, Kobe has bragging rights.



That being said, this will not end well. :lol

http://winningandmisery.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/kobe-hilariously-confused-reaction-gif.gif

[Killakobe81]

Slam Magazine's top 10 players of all-time:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant

And yeah, I disagree with it. Kobe's placement is right on, but they need to exchange Wilt with Kareem, Bird with Oscar, and Magic with Shaq.

Lol entertaining magazine but journalistic powerhouse its not ...besides iirc they did those rankings a few years back IIRC, pretty sure they would update the ranks if they did it today ...but who cares its SLAm stopped reading that mag in college there are posters here and on LG that write better pieces on the NBA now I just peruse when I'm waiting for a connecting flight ...

I used to love it as a kid though especially the HS coverage that made Telfair, sea cotton, and Starbury stars ...LOL

[ambchang]

Slam Magazine's top 10 players of all-time:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant

And yeah, I disagree with it. Kobe's placement is right on, but they need to exchange Wilt with Kareem, Bird with Oscar, and Magic with Shaq.

No Moses Malone in top 10 = stupid list.

Fact that an entertainment oriented magazine that loves hero ball can on put Duncan at 10 tells you Kobe is not top 10.

[Killakobe81]

No Moses Malone in top 10 = stupid list.

Fact that an entertainment oriented magazine that loves hero ball can on put Duncan at 10 tells you Kobe is not top 10.

Kareem's placement alone makes that list horrshit ...no way Shaq is a greater player than Jabbar not in HS, college, or pros

[LkrFan]

It seems at first glance that Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point night in 1962 is far superior to Kobe Bryant's 81-point game Sunday. After all, Bryant still needed 19 more points -- roughly Pau Gasol's average -- just to catch the Dipper.


But if you stack the two games side by side, you'll come to the startling realization that Bryant's performance was actually far superior. Breaking the two games down by the numbers, it quickly becomes apparent what a dominant night Kobe had. Consider the facts:


Bryant was more efficient. Bryant needed 46 shot attempts and 20 free throws to get 81 points. Chamberlain needed 63 field-goal attempts and 32 free-throw tries to get his 100. Bryant's true shooting percentage for the night was 73.9 percent; Chamberlain's was only 63.9 percent.


Bryant's performance was more real. In Chamberlain's game, the Warriors intentionally fouled the Knicks in the final minute of play to get the ball back for another Chamberlain try at the century mark. Only on his third try did he get to 100. At the time, his team was comfortably ahead, as it was for the entire second half, and it won 169-147. Bryant, on the other hand, got almost all his points when they were desperately needed, as his team trailed by 18 early in the third quarter.


Bryant needed fewer minutes. If you want to really be amazed, consider the fact that Kobe sat out for six minutes in the second quarter. So Bryant scored his 81 points in only 42 minutes, while Wilt played the full 48 in his 100-point effort. Had he played for an additional six minutes and scored at the same rate (hardly an unreasonable assumption, given how much gas he appeared to have at the end), Kobe would have finished with 93 points. Yes, 93.


The game was different. Of all the differences between Bryant's game and Chamberlain's, this one is perhaps the biggest. Chamberlain's game ended up 169-147, Bryant's 122-104. Obviously, there was a huge difference in the speed of play, and that meant Chamberlain had far more opportunities to score than Bryant did.


Chamberlain's game featured 233 field-goal attempts versus 164 for Bryant's, and 93 free-throw attempts to 60 for Bryant's. We have no data on turnovers and offensive rebounds for Chamberlain's game, but based on the numbers I just mentioned, we can estimate there were 46 percent more possessions in the Chamberlain game than in the Kobe game.


If that's the case, we need to inflate Kobe's numbers by 46 percent to get an accurate idea of what it equates to in Chamberlain's era. The answer? An unbelievable 118 points. And if we add in six extra minutes for Bryant, we end up with the mind-boggling total of 135. By one player. In one game.


Another way to look at it is by deflating Chamberlain's numbers by a similar amount. If we change his currency into "2006 points," so to speak, the Stilt ends up with 68 points -- still an awesome performance, but clearly not on a level with Kobe's 81-point outburst. And once you adjust for the 48 minutes Chamberlain played vs. Kobe's 42, you end up with 60 points for Wilt -- or just a bit more than Kobe rang up in the second half.


So when our Marc Stein says this is the most amazing performance ever, believe it. Once you adjust for the differences in pace between the two eras and the fact that Bryant sat out for six minutes, even Chamberlain's monumental 100-point game pales by comparison. For basketball historians, Bryant's effort is now the scoring effort against which all others should be measured.

ESPN INSIDER (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2303136)

Just a microcosm of that historic season for which he inexplicably did not win MVP as the clear cut best player in the game. Colorado destroyed his image and ruined what should have been an even better legacy.

[ambchang]

ESPN INSIDER (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2303136)

Just a microcosm of that historic season for which he inexplicably did not win MVP as the clear cut best player in the game. Colorado destroyed his image and ruined what should have been an even better legacy.

Wilt didn't win the MVP the year he scored 100 either. Most people who watched the game understand that scoring is not the only aspect of the game, and one game does not a season make.

[LkrFan]

Wilt didn't win the MVP the year he scored 100 either. Most people who watched the game understand that scoring is not the only aspect of the game, and one game does not a season make.
Was Wilt the clear cut best player in the game when he scored 100 - because Kobe clearly was. And he was legitimately an all NBA defender that year too, so I don't get your point.

But it's ironic that you posted that garbage because Nash won it and he played NO defense. :rolleyes

[ambchang]

Was Wilt the clear cut best player in the game when he scored 100 - because Kobe clearly was. And he was legitimately an all NBA defender that year too, so I don't get your point.

But it's ironic that you posted that garbage because Nash won it and he played NO defense. :rolleyes

You used one single game as evidence of Kobe being the "clear cut" best player that season and contrasting Wilt's 100 point game. I told you that wilt didn't win it either; meaning your example was unapt and flawed.

You could have used other examples comparing kobe to other players in 06, but you didn't. You compared him to a player who played in 62, and used one game as an example at that.

So what is your argument for Kobe being the "clear cut" best player that year? He was 3rd in per, and4th in both offensive win share and win share.

[ambchang]

Btw. Kobe wasn't even in the top 20 in defensive rating or defensive win share that year. Kobe was certainly better than Nash on d, but he was most definitely not legit all nba d team that year. He was running on reputation that year, as he had been since around 2004