Dirk: "Kobe the best player in the last 15 years, Duncan the best PF ever."

[Goku]

So you don’t buy the idea that Kobe and other stars are playing hero ball there at the end of games? That they are taking really bad shots with two or three guys guarding them?

Yeah, sometimes it's a thin line. You need a mixture [of plays] to find the open guy, but some nights you just gotta take the team home.


Kobe’s footwork in the post is obviously legendary.

Oh yeah. The athleticism, the balance in the air, the lefty shots. He made a 3 on us one year in the corner. The shot clock was winding down, and he had to spin around and just shoot it lefty. To me, he's the no. 1 player over the 15 years I've been in this league.


No. 1 over Tim Duncan?

Duncan to me is obviously so solid, but to watch him play …


Oh, you mean, just in terms of style.

Yeah. Duncan is probably the best power forward ever to play this game.


You don’t feel like you have a place in that discussion?

Oh, no, no. I'm not. He's got four rings.


http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/50736/qa-dirk-nowitzki-on-the-mavs-struggles-his-favorite-shot-artist-and-refusing-to-watch-shark-tank

[StrengthAndHonor]

Dirk just supporting a player of his generation tbh.

[dunkman]

Not sure, he was always eclipsed by someone, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, but its true he maintained a first team NBA level during very long period of time.

[Clipper Nation]

Shitful take by Dirk, tbh... LBJ is the best player of the past 15 years....

[Richie]

He's saying Kobe has more style, which is what people want to watch. Fair enough comment.

I've got a lot of time for Dirk. Glad he got a ring with the Mavs

[jjktkk]

Shitful take by Dirk, tbh... LBJ is the best player of the past 15 years....

LBJ is the mosted talented, but theirs a difference in most talented and best player. LBJ's career is not over, so this can change.

[TDfan2007]

Cherry-picking quotes.

Dirk said Kobe was the best in terms of style of play. Read the article...

[skmblz]

humble guy! dirk = class

[Clipper Nation]

Cherry-picking quotes.

Dirk said Kobe was the best in terms of style of play. Read the article...
Even shittier take, tbh.... Kirby's inefficient, selfish style of play pales in comparison to Timmy or the Kang... give me efficiency and basketball IQ any day over throwing feces at the rim and relying on bigs and ref bailouts...

[kobedwight2412]

Lol @ these noobs hateing on Kobe.

[ambchang]

I agree with Dirk. We all know MJ is the best of all time, and his style changed the NBA game forever. Kobe imitated that style down to a T, like how he quoted Kill Bill and gave himself a "new" nickname straight out of the movie. The only difference is that Kobe had that retarded hiss instead of a cool tongue-wag that Jordan does, and that knocked Kobe down a notch, or else he would been tied with MJ as the GOAT in playing style.

Just watch that jumper with 3 defenders in his face, doesn't matter if he hits or not, the important thing is that it looks goooooood.

[td4mvp2k]

Lol @ these noobs hateing on Kobe.

Your the noob if you think Kobe is the best in the last 15 over TD! :lol

[Fabbs]

#1 style fag or #1 basketball player?

Grantland link writer and Dirk going for the former imo.

[whitemamba]

dirk droppin truth bombs

[Suspect]

dirk droppin truth bombs

[Brunodf]

Kobe is the #1 for style, that tells a lot about his basketball skills tbh.

[ambchang]

Kobe's got style:

http://www.gq.com/style/blogs/the-gq-eye/Kobe-Bryant-490.jpg

And given Dirk's taste in women, we all know he knows style when he sees it.

[Killakobe81]

Butthurt in this thread is strong

[Jacob1983]

Kobe is better than Lebron. Nothing wrong with that.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe's got style:

http://www.gq.com/style/blogs/the-gq-eye/Kobe-Bryant-490.jpg

And given Dirk's taste in women, we all know he knows style when he sees it.

Dirk's new wife is hotter than probably anything 99.9% of the posters on here have ever gotten close to being with ... I cant speak for the mud-duck he had before ... But this time Dirk did himself right. I have seen her in person here in DFW she is "L.A. hot" not local girl hot ...

[z0sa]

Lol @ these noobs hateing on Kobe.

lol "kobedwight" calling other people noobs.

[JamStone]

Not sure why people get so upset when other players or coaches acknowledge how good Kobe has been over the years. People get so mad and try to twist it any way they can. Even years ago when Pop and Duncan called Kobe the best player on the planet, people were arguing that they were just saying that to play mind games or somehow that's not what they really meant. It's astonishing why it makes people so butthurt. Whether or not Kobe has been the best player in the league over a decade or 15 years or whatever, it doesn't really matter. It's just Dirk's opinion. People get so bent over an opinion that they have to qualify it or try to spin it any way they can to discredit the opinion. I guess that's how it's always going to be. Hate is hate is hate.

[Juggity]

Sour grapes from Dirk, tbh.

[z0sa]

Not sure why people get so upset when other players or coaches acknowledge how good Kobe has been over the years. People get so mad and try to twist it any way they can. Even years ago when Pop and Duncan called Kobe the best player on the planet, people were arguing that they were just saying that to play mind games or somehow that's not what they really meant. It's astonishing why it makes people so butthurt. Whether or not Kobe has been the best player in the league over a decade or 15 years or whatever, it doesn't really matter. It's just Dirk's opinion. People get so bent over an opinion that they have to qualify it or try to spin it any way they can to discredit the opinion. I guess that's how it's always going to be. Hate is hate is hate.

It probably has something to do with Kobe being a little bitch.

[ambchang]

Guys, read the article, Dirk didn't say Kobe was the best player in the last 15 years. Read it.

[Clipper Nation]

It probably has something to do with Kobe being a little bitch.
Also it's part of what makes Kirby so overrated, as quotes like these feed into that faggot's hype machine...

[KaiRMD1]

I'll give him that, Kobe has made some of the most amazing shots with several people guarding him. The one golden rule I've noticed from watching Kobe is this: if he stands in a spot for more than 5 seconds without being forced to move by the defender or getting any pressure from the defender, he has a 99.9% chance of making the shot, no matter where he is on the court.

[JamStone]

It probably has something to do with Kobe being a little bitch.

Perhaps. But being a little bitch doesn't take away from a player's greatness nor does it mean people should hate on his play on the court for it. Just like Jordan having a gambling addiction that killed his father shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Magic having unprotected sex with gay men shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Tim rocking a tramp stamp while playing dungeons and dragons shouldn't take away from his greatness.

[midnightpulp]

Perhaps. But being a little bitch doesn't take away from a player's greatness nor does it mean people should hate on his play on the court for it. Just like Jordan having a gambling addiction that killed his father shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Magic having unprotected sex with gay men shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Tim rocking a tramp stamp while playing dungeons and dragons shouldn't take away from his greatness.

:lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

It's amusing how bitter some spurfans get over any Duncan-slight or Kobe-praise

[td4mvp2k]

Perhaps. But being a little bitch doesn't take away from a player's greatness nor does it mean people should hate on his play on the court for it. Or Tim rocking a tramp stamp while playing dungeons and dragons shouldn't take away from his greatness.

Or that the tramp stamp F'd the Pisstons in 05...

[phxspurfan]

lol that Kobe and the Lakers were losing that game when he pulled off that circus lefty three. Story of Kobe's life.

[z0sa]

Perhaps. But being a little bitch doesn't take away from a player's greatness nor does it mean people should hate on his play on the court for it. Just like Jordan having a gambling addiction that killed his father shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Magic having unprotected sex with gay men shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Tim rocking a tramp stamp while playing dungeons and dragons shouldn't take away from his greatness.

Hey, fuck you bro. :downspin:

srslytho, your general theme was, "why do people always tend towards wanting to take away from Kobe's greatness at any possible time?" Now that he's fallen into mediocrity I don't really GAF, but yeah I think that answers your question. I would say Kobe is the most divisive player in NBA history, in fact. In my experience most "respect" his scoring ability but hate his attitude. Plus, he's a snitch who ran Shaq outta town. We're talking an arguable top 5 POAT still near his prime in Shaq.

[midnightpulp]

I know I have the reputation as the biggest Kobe hater on here, but I don't place Duncan over him all-time out of any kind of homerism or "hate." Simply put, the facts work in Duncan's favor in this particular player comparison.

Duncan was the lead dog on 4 championship teams, winning 3 Finals MVPs. Kobe was the lead dog on 2 championship team, winning 2 Finals MVPs.

Duncan has two of the top best statistical Finals performances of all-time. Kobe has not placed on that list.

Duncan is the better statistical performer in the playoffs than Kobe. Hate PER all you want, but it's a much better metric than arbitrarily comparing per game stats. And if we want to go down the road of comparing per game stats, Duncan wins more categories.

While Kobe was a solid perimeter defender, Duncan is one of the best interior defenders/paint anchors of all-time, and arguably the best defender of his generation (can make an argument for Garnett).

Some quotes from one of the best articles examining the debate:

"There really isn’t any diplomatic way to this: Tim Duncan’s playoff performances essentially run circles over Kobe Bryant’s. Indeed, the Big Fundamental has five postseason performances that surpass Kobe Bryant’s best playoff run (2001-02, 2005-06, 2002-03, 2006-07, 2008-09) and also several other notable playoff performances. It’s not by accident that fans and people in the media shower Duncan with praise and peg him as the best power forward of all time; he has had an exceptional career."

“Kobe Bryant has been known to shut down his opponent whereas Tim Duncan was known to shut down entire offenses by himself”. Indeed, Duncan’s productivity as well as his efficiency have made the Spurs team a championship contender throughout his tenure in San Antonio while the same cannot be said about Bryant.

http://www.warriorsworld.net/2011/02/20/kobe-duncan-debate-close/

And every time Kobe/Lakers fans are presented with these facts, rather than try to have substantial debate, they default to their 5>4, 81 points, Kobe owns Duncan in the playoffs (which he doesn't) shtick, because they know they lack a sufficient enough counterargument to really challenge the notion that Duncan is the better all-time player.

That said, Kobe definitely has more left in the tank than Duncan, and I can honestly see Kobe playing at a star level until 38. If he manages to impress with a good playoff performance and another Finals MVP in the coming years, I'll concede Kobe as the better player. But currently, I just don't believe Kobe has enough factual ammunition to definitively place him over Duncan.

[JamStone]

Ben Wallace is the best defender of Duncan's generation. He doesn't have the longevity of playing at his level as Duncan or KG, but his 5-6 seasons of great defensive play still overshadows what Duncan and KG did in their careers defensively. And that's even with acknowledging how great those two players were defensively.

[RudyRay]

I'm a die hard life long Spurs fan, but I'd put Kobe over Timmy by the slightest of margins.

[JamStone]

Hey, fuck you bro. :downspin:

srslytho, your general theme was, "why do people always tend towards wanting to take away from Kobe's greatness at any possible time?" Now that he's fallen into mediocrity I don't really GAF, but yeah I think that answers your question. I would say Kobe is the most divisive player in NBA history, in fact. In my experience most "respect" his scoring ability but hate his attitude. Plus, he's a snitch who ran Shaq outta town. We're talking an arguable top 5 POAT still near his prime in Shaq.

Kobe deserves a hell of a lot of criticism, especially for off the court things. I don't think I really argue when people bash on him for off the court things. And even basketball related, he deserves criticism for chucking, his inability to lead a team to any type of success without a great supporting casty, and for alienating teammates. But there are posters on these boards that discredit him for his play way more than they should. Talk about him maybe not even being even a top 25 player, much less anywhere close to being a top 10 player all time. Discredit him for titles he won as a sidekick even though it's never done to Kareem, Magic, Bird, or even Shaq in 2006.

I don't think Kobe is a sure-fire top 10 player all time. I think he's borderline. Arguments can be made that he's anywhere in the maybe 8-15 range depending what your criteria for such lists are. I don't think he's had a better career than either Shaq or Duncan. I don't think he's been the best player in the league over LeBron in probably 4-5 years. But the way he does get criticized on these boards often do go to extremes in trying to put him down. Shaq was the best player in the league up until around 2002 or so, then Duncan for a couple years, and then maybe Kobe for a couple seasons, before LeBron took over. But there are people who will argue Kobe was never even in the discussion of being the best player in the league... like ever.

Make fun of him being a snitch and a rapist. I make fun of that too. No problem with it. Call him a chucker. No issue with that either. Being a horrible teammate and an egomaniac. I won't argue. When people obsess about Kobe not even being very good, it gets ridiculous. And Dirk isn't the only player or coach who has given Kobe high if not ultimate praise as a great player. And it's not silly for those players and coaches to do so. For a while, maybe only a short while, Kobe ruled the NBA. Around 2007 and 2008, Kobe was the best player in the league. And at least on an individual level, his level of play has been so great for so long. He was probably a top 5 player in the league for a good decade. But give him any amount of praise for his play on the court, and you're a Kobe fanboi. Kobe haters are basically the polar opposites of those true Kobe fanbois.

[midnightpulp]

Ben Wallace is the best defender of Duncan's generation. He doesn't have the longevity of playing at his level as Duncan or KG, but his 5-6 seasons of great defensive play still overshadows what Duncan and KG did in their careers defensively. And that's even with acknowledging how great those two players were defensively.

I considered saying Wallace, but I disagree that Wallace's 5-6 seasons overshadow the 12+ plus seasons those two players have maintained their elite defensive level.

But I have no problem with anyone ranking Wallace over Duncan.

[JamStone]

4 DPOYs in that 5-6 year span. And all were legit. There is also stastistical evidence to support it. One of the rare high rebounding, high shot blocking, plus high steals big men of all time, on the same level as Hakeem. Was maybe the only big man to not only defend Shaq one-on-one in Shaq's prime, but do so well despite giving up 3-4 inches and close to 100 pounds. Would take a charge just as easily as he would block a shot. Played passing lanes like a wing, could defend the post, and play help side defense all equally well. Would switch onto perimeter players in pick-and-roll situations and stay in front of them. He was the ultimate defender in his 5-6 year stretch of great play.

And I know it's hypothetically speaking, but his stretch of seasons would have been closer to 9-10 years had he been given a chance before the Pistons in 2000. But his offense was so atrociously bad, he didn't get that chance until he was already 25 or 26, which cut his ability to string together a longer stretch of defensive greatness. But again, ifs and buts.

[midnightpulp]

Kobe deserves a hell of a lot of criticism, especially for off the court things. I don't think I really argue when people bash on him for off the court things. And even basketball related, he deserves criticism for chucking, his inability to lead a team to any type of success without a great supporting casty, and for alienating teammates. But there are posters on these boards that discredit him for his play way more than they should. Talk about him maybe not even being even a top 25 player, much less anywhere close to being a top 10 player all time. Discredit him for titles he won as a sidekick even though it's never done to Kareem, Magic, Bird, or even Shaq in 2006.

I don't think Kobe is a sure-fire top 10 player all time. I think he's borderline. Arguments can be made that he's anywhere in the maybe 8-15 range depending what your criteria for such lists are. I don't think he's had a better career than either Shaq or Duncan. I don't think he's been the best player in the league over LeBron in probably 4-5 years. But the way he does get criticized on these boards often do go to extremes in trying to put him down. Shaq was the best player in the league up until around 2002 or so, then Duncan for a couple years, and then maybe Kobe for a couple seasons, before LeBron took over. But there are people who will argue Kobe was never even in the discussion of being the best player in the league... like ever.

Make fun of him being a snitch and a rapist. I make fun of that too. No problem with it. Call him a chucker. No issue with that either. Being a horrible teammate and an egomaniac. I won't argue. When people obsess about Kobe not even being very good, it gets ridiculous. And Dirk isn't the only player or coach who has given Kobe high if not ultimate praise as a great player. And it's not silly for those players and coaches to do so. For a while, maybe only a short while, Kobe ruled the NBA. Around 2007 and 2008, Kobe was the best player in the league. And at least on an individual level, his level of play has been so great for so long. He was probably a top 5 player in the league for a good decade. But give him any amount of praise for his play on the court, and you're a Kobe fanboi. Kobe haters are basically the polar opposites of those true Kobe fanbois.

You're more level headed than the lot of us, Jam. :lol

You're conscientious enough to just ignore the massive hype and myth that surrounds Kobe, as well as the innumerable proclamations by his fanboys of his incalculable greatness, and just let people be entitled to their stupid opinions, because you know how fruitless it would be to try to change an unwilling mind that is steeped in such deep fanaticism it borders on the psychotic.

For whatever reason, I'm compelled to challenge their mindset, which quite often manifests itself in the kind of "hate" you describe (never crediting Kobe for anything). I think it's because the only suitable counter to the fanboy's overblown hyping of Kobe is overblown hate, since many of them are never interested in having a thoughtful debate about Kobe's actual status as an NBA great (top 8-12 all-time) rather than the myth they've built for him (GOAT or 2nd greatest of all-time).

And I guess Spurs fans will always baited into such since the Duncan vs. Kobe debate has raged on since about '06.

[JamStone]

That's probably your best and most thoughtful explanation about the Kobe debate and your posting regarding Kobe you've ever given.

I'll give you props for that. But I'm sure it won't be the last time I challenge your opinion or posts about Kobe.

[DMC]

Shitful take by Dirk, tbh... LBJ is the best player of the past 15 years....

Even worse reading comprehension. He said "over the last 15 years". Lebron was still sucking his thumb when Kobe started.

[DMC]

Players know the difference between a PF and a SG. They often won't compare them in the nebulous ways we do.

[Koolaid_Man]

Dirk's new wife is hotter than probably anything 99.9% of the posters on here have ever gotten close to being with ... I cant speak for the mud-duck he had before ... But this time Dirk did himself right. I have seen her in person here in DFW she is "L.A. hot" not local girl hot ...

please purposefully exclude Kool...you have no idea my brother :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

It probably has something to do with Kobe being a little bitch.

:lol translation: "Kobe is the best but I'm hating cuz I'm a loser that just don't like the dude."

[DMC]

I'm a die hard life long Spurs fan, but I'd put Kobe over Timmy by the slightest of margins.

You'd be a fool. No way Kobe gets any of the Spurs teams to a Finals. Wouldn't happen. Imagine Tim on the Lakers now instead of Kobe. They are in the playoffs because Tim lets Steve run the show, and gets the ball inside to Howard when he can. No ego, just skill, like an old well oiled piece of machinery churning out results year after year. Kobe isn't just a body with skills, and you cannot separate his ego and attitude from his game and pretend they are two different things. You buy one, you get the other, and that combination is problematic when he doesn't have the ability to do what he thinks he can do. Sure he could go off when no one was guarding him back in the Shaq days, but he was playing with the most powerful bigman of all time in my opinion, and Shaq could have scored 50 a game if they got him the ball more often. Kobe did more harm to that team than good imo. There's no reason that team shouldn't have gone 4 or 5 in a row.


Sorry, all the platitudes are great, but it's bullshit.

[DMC]

please purposefully exclude Kool...you have no idea my brother :lol

He's talking about females.

[midnightpulp]

That's probably your best and most thoughtful explanation about the Kobe debate and your posting regarding Kobe you've ever given.

I'll give you props for that. But I'm sure it won't be the last time I challenge your opinion or posts about Kobe.

:lol Ironically, I probably have Kobe higher all-time than you.

Contrary to what many might believe here, I didn't hate or even dislike Kobe during the 3 peat. Any Spurfan will tell you that Shaq was the numero uno villain in those days. We hated the guy. Mainly because of his arrogance, trash-talking, and the like, but also because Lakers fans worshiped the guy and hyped him up in a similar way they now do Kobe (why I find it funny how they shit on him now for the purpose of propping up Kobe).

Some will say it was the '04 rape/snitch business that soured them on Kobe. But for me, it was '06, and the media jizzfest that ensued after his 81 point game, with the comparisons to Jordan, Mark Jackson saying he's the greatest ever, etc, etc. I simply tired of the hype (a hype that continues to this day) and responded with hate/trolling.

I appreciate Kobe as a player. I think he's a top 10 great, but he is still massively, massively overrated. And when his fans come in here talking their bullshit, I typically can't help myself in countering their hype with some hate.

[Koolaid_Man]

Perhaps. But being a little bitch doesn't take away from a player's greatness nor does it mean people should hate on his play on the court for it. Just like Jordan having a gambling addiction that killed his father shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Magic having unprotected sex with gay men shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Tim rocking a tramp stamp while playing dungeons and dragons shouldn't take away from his greatness.

Since Magic started hatin on Kobe I have no desire to defend his legacy....plus the butter on his movie Theater popcorn just ain't right...

[DMC]

Since Magic started hatin on Kobe I have no desire to defend his legacy....plus the butter on his movie Theater popcorn just ain't right...

Bend over, I'll butter your fuckin' popcorn.

[DeadlyDynasty]

plus the butter on his movie Theater popcorn just ain't right...
literally laughed out loud:lol

[td4mvp2k]

Bend over, I'll butter your fuckin' popcorn.

:lol

[Koolaid_Man]

You're more level headed than the lot of us, Jam. :lol

You're conscientious enough to just ignore the massive hype and myth that surrounds Kobe, as well as the innumerable proclamations by his fanboys of his incalculable greatness, and just let people be entitled to their stupid opinions, because you know how fruitless it would be to try to change an unwilling mind that is steeped in such deep fanaticism it borders on the psychotic.

For whatever reason, I'm compelled to challenge their mindset, which quite often manifests itself in the kind of "hate" you describe (never crediting Kobe for anything). I think it's because the only suitable counter to the fanboy's overblown hyping of Kobe is overblown hate, since many of them are never interested in having a thoughtful debate about Kobe's actual status as an NBA great (top 8-12 all-time) rather than the myth they've built for him (GOAT or 2nd greatest of all-time).

And I guess Spurs fans will always baited into such since the Duncan vs. Kobe debate has raged on since about '06.

Nothing that you or that faggot Jamstone say is gonna change my mind...I prefer you to be detractors...both you guys are (1) gay or (2) pussies...I saw Jammie's pic and he looks like a stright dick sucking kid that weighs a paltry 105 lbs...and Mid don't even let me get started on your ugly ass...

Hate my nigga all you want real playas know the deal...

volume 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg

volume 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYZAgKRtM8

volume 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGJSiMqpWk

[Koolaid_Man]

He's talking about females.

why you jocking me DMC?

[DMC]

I don't click links. Embed it or forget it.

[DMC]

why you jocking me DMC?

It's close to Valentine's Day and I wanted you to know someone is thinking of you, even if those thoughts are not very flattering.

[Koolaid_Man]

It's close to Valentine's Day and I wanted you to know someone is thinking of you, even if those thoughts are not very flattering.

translation: " It's close to Valentine's Day and I'm frustrated I have no one to talk to."

[Koolaid_Man]

I used to bash Dirk but it looks like he's a real nigga after all....Welcome to Kool's fandom Dirk....:toast

[midnightpulp]

Nothing that you or that faggot Jamstone say is gonna change my mind...I prefer you to be detractors...both you guys are (1) gay or (2) pussies...I saw Jammie's pic and he looks like a stright dick sucking kid that weighs a paltry 105 lbs...and Mid don't even let me get started on your ugly ass...

Hate my nigga all you want real playas know the deal...

volume 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg

volume 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYZAgKRtM8

volume 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGJSiMqpWk

See, the reason you're so insistent on constantly trumpeting Kobe's greatness here is because deep down you're insecure about his legacy.

I can tell you Spurs' fans don't constantly spam Timberwolves/Celtics boards with 4>1. Or, unless it's in response to Mav fan trolling on here, no one says "Duncan 4, Dirk 1."

When something is accepted as fact, which in that case is Duncan being a greater player than either of those two, there's little reason to remind people of it.

Back to my initial statement. The reason you're insecure about Kobe's legacy compared to Duncan is because of:

Duncan: 3

Kobe: 2

One thing the greatest players of their era had in common is that they lead all their peers in Finals MVP wins. Magic in the 80s. Jordan in the 90s. Duncan/Shaq in 00s.

And it burns your fuckin monkey ass that Kobe trails behind Duncan in that very important count.

[Koolaid_Man]

You'd be a fool. No way Kobe gets any of the Spurs teams to a Finals. Wouldn't happen. Imagine Tim on the Lakers now instead of Kobe. They are in the playoffs because Tim lets Steve run the show, and gets the ball inside to Howard when he can. No ego, just skill, like an old well oiled piece of machinery churning out results year after year. Kobe isn't just a body with skills, and you cannot separate his ego and attitude from his game and pretend they are two different things. You buy one, you get the other, and that combination is problematic when he doesn't have the ability to do what he thinks he can do. Sure he could go off when no one was guarding him back in the Shaq days, but he was playing with the most powerful bigman of all time in my opinion, and Shaq could have scored 50 a game if they got him the ball more often. Kobe did more harm to that team than good imo. There's no reason that team shouldn't have gone 4 or 5 in a row.


Sorry, all the platitudes are great, but it's bullshit.

yeah yeah yeah..yada yada yada.... ohh btw DMC...my NBA All Star Game Tickets Just arrived shit is fucking awesome...I got mad parties I'm hittin this weekend....what you doing besides Jerking off?

[midnightpulp]

yeah yeah yeah..yada yada yada.... ohh btw DMC...my NBA All Star Game Tickets Just arrived shit is fucking awesome...I got mad parties I'm hittin this weekend....what you doing besides Jerking off?

:lmao Houston residency confirmed.

LA poser.

"Subway series." :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

See, the reason you're so insistent on constantly trumpeting Kobe's greatness here is because deep down you're insecure about his legacy.

I can tell you Spurs' fans don't constantly spam Timberwolves/Celtics boards with 4>1. Or, unless it's in response to Mav fan trolling on here, no one says "Duncan 4, Dirk 1."

When something is accepted as fact, which in that case is Duncan being a greater player than either of those two, there's little reason to remind people of it.

Back to my initial statement. The reason you're insecure about Kobe's legacy compared to Duncan is because of:

Duncan: 3

Kobe: 2

One thing the greatest players of their era had in common is that they lead all their peers in Finals MVP wins. Magic in the 80s. Jordan in the 90s. Duncan/Shaq in 00s.

And it burns your fuckin monkey ass that Kobe trails behind Duncan in that very important count.

no sir...see I have a brilliant basketball mind...but unlike most Laker fan here...I quickly learned from Cully and Luva that all you guys want is the bullshit so I give it to you..plus there is nothing like paying you back for all those years I had to endure Duncan 4 Kobe 3.....fucking with you clowns is like a nigga being released from prison and sent to live in a whore house...

[Koolaid_Man]

:lmao Houston residency confirmed.

LA poser.

"Subway series." :lol

So I don't get it..what do you get out of it....listen I don't live in Houston....I am a native of LA...and Subway series is legit....

[midnightpulp]

no sir...see I have a brilliant basketball mind...but unlike most Laker fan here...I quickly learned from Cully and Luva that all you guys want is the bullshit so I give it to you..plus there is nothing like paying you back for all those years I had to endure Duncan 4 Kobe 3.....fucking with you clowns is like a nigga being released from prison and sent to live in a whore house...

And now you have to endure Duncan 3, Kobe 2.

Just the way it is, my living in Houston friend.

That said, be secure in 16>4. End of the day, front of the jersey is more important than the back.

[midnightpulp]

So I don't get it..what do you get out of it....listen I don't live in Houston....I am a native of LA...and Subway series is legit....

But you do. It's been confirmed many times. By Kori. m>s's observation of your knowledge of Houston underground hiphop. Your blackplanet profile :lol

You probably only been to LA as a tourist.

[Koolaid_Man]

But you do. It's been confirmed many times. By Kori. m>s's observation of your knowledge of Houston underground hiphop. Your blackplanet profile :lol

You probably only been to LA as a tourist.

:lol you're a fucking clown

[Koolaid_Man]

So mid what are you doing this weekend?

[Koolaid_Man]

You want to hang out with my crew...lots of Hoe's white ones too? You down

[Latarian Milton]

the journalist tricked dirk into making these stupid comments imho. bitch only mentioned kobe and dirk gave the eulogy to him, when the fact is that dirk would've made the same complimentary comments on whoever else. if you ask him next "so does it mean that you take Duncan over KG as well?" he would respond "oh, no, KG is in fact a small forward, he's the best small forward of all time..."

[ezau]

Oh, no, no. I'm not. He's got four rings.


http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/50736/qa-dirk-nowitzki-on-the-mavs-struggles-his-favorite-shot-artist-and-refusing-to-watch-shark-tank

So this is Dirk telling his franchise that 4>1. We knew that thing a long time ago, yet Mavs fans couldn't accept it. :lol

[Leon Black]

So this is Dirk telling his franchise that 4>1. We knew that thing a long time ago, yet Mavs fans couldn't accept it. :lol

1>3

[Deuce Bigalow]

I know I have the reputation as the biggest Kobe hater on here, but I don't place Duncan over him all-time out of any kind of homerism or "hate." Simply put, the facts work in Duncan's favor in this particular player comparison.

Duncan was the lead dog on 4 championship teams, winning 3 Finals MVPs. Kobe was the lead dog on 2 championship team, winning 2 Finals MVPs.

Duncan has two of the top best statistical Finals performances of all-time. Kobe has not placed on that list.

Duncan is the better statistical performer in the playoffs than Kobe. Hate PER all you want, but it's a much better metric than arbitrarily comparing per game stats. And if we want to go down the road of comparing per game stats, Duncan wins more categories.

While Kobe was a solid perimeter defender, Duncan is one of the best interior defenders/paint anchors of all-time, and arguably the best defender of his generation (can make an argument for Garnett).

Some quotes from one of the best articles examining the debate:

"There really isn’t any diplomatic way to this: Tim Duncan’s playoff performances essentially run circles over Kobe Bryant’s. Indeed, the Big Fundamental has five postseason performances that surpass Kobe Bryant’s best playoff run (2001-02, 2005-06, 2002-03, 2006-07, 2008-09) and also several other notable playoff performances. It’s not by accident that fans and people in the media shower Duncan with praise and peg him as the best power forward of all time; he has had an exceptional career."

“Kobe Bryant has been known to shut down his opponent whereas Tim Duncan was known to shut down entire offenses by himself”. Indeed, Duncan’s productivity as well as his efficiency have made the Spurs team a championship contender throughout his tenure in San Antonio while the same cannot be said about Bryant.

http://www.warriorsworld.net/2011/02/20/kobe-duncan-debate-close/

And every time Kobe/Lakers fans are presented with these facts, rather than try to have substantial debate, they default to their 5>4, 81 points, Kobe owns Duncan in the playoffs (which he doesn't) shtick, because they know they lack a sufficient enough counterargument to really challenge the notion that Duncan is the better all-time player.

That said, Kobe definitely has more left in the tank than Duncan, and I can honestly see Kobe playing at a star level until 38. If he manages to impress with a good playoff performance and another Finals MVP in the coming years, I'll concede Kobe as the better player. But currently, I just don't believe Kobe has enough factual ammunition to definitively place him over Duncan.
You just will never get "it".

Duncan has to be above Kareem, Magic, and Bird also on the all-time list according to "rings as the man" or by FMVPs.

[td4mvp2k]

:lol you're a fucking clown

Some1 needz 2 Fuk dis foo ^

[midnightpulp]

You just will never get "it".

Duncan has to be above Kareem, Magic, and Bird also on the all-time list according to "rings as the man" or by FMVPs.

Get "what?"

That you don't have an effective counterargument?

And fail by mentioning Kareem, Magic (don't know why you bring him up since he was the man on 4 title teams, and some would say he was the man from the first day he put on his Lakers uniform) or Bird. Those players were from different eras. Also Bird vs. Duncan on the all-time list is a very, very debatable issue. Yeah, yeah Bird vs. Magic :cry rescued the NBA and all that, but what hurts Bird in his case against Duncan or Shaq or even your hero (some have ranked Kobe over Bird all-time) is that back injuries cut his career short and he was pretty much done as a top player by '88. Still very good, but nowhere near prime form.

Duncan and Kobe are from this era, and as it stands, Duncan has been the "man" on more title teams, won more Finals MVPs, is considered the better defender, and has better overall playoff stats than Kobe.

What don't I "get?"

Oh, I know, I don't worship PPG, like yourself.

You want me to buy Kobe over Duncan, prove it to me. Right now, ALL the facts work in my favor.

[Kidd K]

Dirk: offensive player who isn't known for defense.

Does he select the great offensive player, not known for defense?

Or the good offensive player who's well known for his defense?


Dirk picked the guy most similar to him. The shooter who doesn't play a lot of D'.

Imo, Duncan is both the best PF and best player of the last 15 years. Kobe's extra ring doesn't mean shit to me. He got 3 with Shaq who was better than him all 3 years.

Kobe is only elite in one category, scoring. Duncan is elite in shot blocking, reboudning, defense, and is also an elite big man scorer.

[Molotov]

mid doing work on these kobe dick riders

[Deuce Bigalow]

Get "what?"

That you don't have an effective counterargument?

And fail by mentioning Kareem, Magic (don't know why you bring him up since he was the man on 4 title teams, and some would say he was the man from the first day he put on his Lakers uniform) or Bird. Those players were from different eras. Also Bird vs. Duncan on the all-time list is a very, very debatable issue. Yeah, yeah Bird vs. Magic :cry rescued the NBA and all that, but what hurts Bird in his case against Duncan or Shaq or even your hero (some have ranked Kobe over Bird all-time) is that back injuries cut his career short and he was pretty much done as a top player by '88. Still very good, but nowhere near prime form.

Duncan and Kobe are from this era, and as it stands, Duncan has been the "man" on more title teams, won more Finals MVPs, is considered the better defender, and has better overall playoff stats than Kobe.

What don't I "get?"

Oh, I know, I don't worship PPG, like yourself.

You want me to buy Kobe over Duncan, prove it to me. Right now, ALL the facts work in my favor.
We have already gone through this before. Kobe played great in the 2001 Playoffs. 32/6/7 on 49FG while LA swept the Western Conference 11-0. 35/9/4 vs Kings, 33/7/7 vs Spurs, both teams had a defensive rating below 100 in th regular season. He didn't win Finals MVP, and because of that you don't give him credit. Shaq was on Kobe's team. How many players in NBA history are better than a prime Shaq? You can count them on your hand, or its even arguable that only MJ is better. Why does Kobe's rings not count because he had a better player on his team? In the 2001 and 2002 Plqyoff combined, Kobe was the leading scorer in 18/35 games and 4/8 series, and led the Lakere in apg. Kobe led the lakers in 4th quarter scoring and 2nd half scoring both those years as well. How does that ring not count? Look, the Kobe-Duncan position on the all time list is close and both can be ahead of each other. But the argument you make for why Duncan is better is just arrogant and misinformed.

[ElNono]

Discredit him for titles he won as a sidekick even though it's never done to Kareem, Magic, Bird, or even Shaq in 2006.

The exception I would take with this is that, at least in the case of Shaq, I don't recall him mouthing off with Miami being "his team", etc. Kirby loves to run his mouth to appear to be the leader, and it really backfires every time. Even when he won titles, it's all about him even though either he coattailed or he had to be bailed out by teammates from what could've been historically embarrassing performances. Heck, he *had* those too. In 2004 he single-handedly cost the Lakers a title. In 2008 his Lakers team still hold the record for worst NBA Finals loss in history.

One other issue with him (and that's not necessarily all his fault) is that ESPN decided they needed to sell Kirby-as-the-next-Jordan 24/7. So while he's extremely talented, he's also easily the most overrated player in the past 15 years. And the truth is he likes to play into that. He mouths off on the media about teammates, coaches, management, etc etc etc. He's absolutely bitchmade.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The exception I would take with this is that, at least in the case of Shaq, I don't recall him mouthing off with Miami being "his team", etc. Kirby loves to run his mouth to appear to be the leader, and it really backfires every time. Even when he won titles, it's all about him even though either he coattailed or he had to be bailed out by teammates from what could've been historically embarrassing performances. Heck, he *had* those too. In 2004 he single-handedly cost the Lakers a title. In 2008 his Lakers team still hold the record for worst NBA Finals loss in history.

One other issue with him (and that's not necessarily all his fault) is that ESPN decided they needed to sell Kirby-as-the-next-Jordan 24/7. So while he's extremely talented, he's also easily the most overrated player in the past 15 years. And the truth is he likes to play into that. He mouths off on the media about teammates, coaches, management, etc etc etc. He's absolutely bitchmade.
You blame Kobe for the losses but when they won titles its just a team accomplishment. Their loss in 2004 and 2008 was because the team was outplayed and the other team beat them, not Kobe. Don't teams win and lose? Last time I checked there is not a team called "Kobe Bryant".

[whitemamba]

sup duece, hows the gigalo business now days

[Molotov]

The exception I would take with this is that, at least in the case of Shaq, I don't recall him mouthing off with Miami being "his team", etc. Kirby loves to run his mouth to appear to be the leader, and it really backfires every time. Even when he won titles, it's all about him even though either he coattailed or he had to be bailed out by teammates from what could've been historically embarrassing performances. Heck, he *had* those too. In 2004 he single-handedly cost the Lakers a title. In 2008 his Lakers team still hold the record for worst NBA Finals loss in history.

One other issue with him (and that's not necessarily all his fault) is that ESPN decided they needed to sell Kirby-as-the-next-Jordan 24/7. So while he's extremely talented, he's also easily the most overrated player in the past 15 years. And the truth is he likes to play into that. He mouths off on the media about teammates, coaches, management, etc etc etc. He's absolutely bitchmade.



the goods, tbh

[ElNono]

You blame Kobe for the losses but when they won titles its just a team accomplishment. Their loss in 2004 and 2008 was because the team was outplayed and the other team beat them, not Kobe. Don't teams win and lose? Last time I checked there is not a team called "Kobe Bryant".

Not at all. Shaq should get the credit for the first 3 titles, and Kobe gets credit for the other 2 (despite having to get bailed out by Metta and Pau in multiple occasions)

And while it's true the team isn't called "Kobe Bryant", it's indeed him that mouths off that it's "his" team. The leader act just doesn't fly with him.

[Deuce Bigalow]

sup duece, hows the gigalo business now days
http://s3.amazonaws.com/auteurs_production/images/film/deuce-bigalow-male-gigolo/w448/deuce-bigalow-male-gigolo.jpg?1289481252

[whitemamba]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/auteurs_production/images/film/deuce-bigalow-male-gigolo/w448/deuce-bigalow-male-gigolo.jpg?1289481252

sexy

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not at all. Shaq should get the credit for the first 3 titles, and Kobe gets credit for the other 2 (despite having to get bailed out by Metta and Pau in multiple occasions)

And while it's true the team isn't called "Kobe Bryant", it's indeed him that mouths off that it's "his" team. The leader act just doesn't fly with him.
Wait, Shaq gets all the credit while he had a teammate that averaged 29/7/6 and 27/6/5, lakers leading scorer in 18/35 games, leading scorer in 4/8 series, and the leading scorer in the 4th quarter and 2nd halfs in the 01 and 02 Playoffs.

While in 09 and 10 Kobe was "bailed out" by 19/11 and 20/11 Pau and 11/3/4 Metta while Kobe averages 30/5/6 and 29/6/6 and was the lakers leader in points and assists in every single series, and 4th quarter and 2nd half scoring?

[whitemamba]

Wait, Shaq gets all the credit while he had a teammate that averaged 29/7/6 and 27/6/5, lakers leading scorer in 18/35 games, leading scorer in 4/8 series, and the leading scorer in the 4th quarter and 2nd halfs in the 01 and 02 Playoffs.

While in 09 and 10 Kobe was "bailed out" by 19/11 and 20/11 Pau and 11/3/4 Metta while Kobe averages 30/5/6 and 29/6/6 and was the lakers leader in points and assists in every single series, and 4th quarter and 2nd half scoring?

this, anyone who says kobe got "bailed" out simply was not watching the games. just kobe being on the floor even if he doesnt take a shot, is a threat. saying anything else is laughable..

[ElNono]

Wait, Shaq gets all the credit while he had a teammate that averaged 29/7/6 and 27/6/5, lakers leading scorer in 18/35 games, leading scorer in 4/8 series, and the leading scorer in the 4th quarter and 2nd halfs in the 01 and 02 Playoffs.

:lol who do you think was getting triple-teamed every possession? Once Shaq left town it was ":cry trade me or get me help :cry"

Shaq was simply the best, most dominant player on those teams. Kirby was simply the beneficiary of that. In other word, classical coattailing.


While in 09 and 10 Kobe was "bailed out" by 19/11 and 20/11 Pau and 11/3/4 Metta while Kobe averages 30/5/6 and 29/6/6 and was the lakers leader in points and assists in every single series, and 4th quarter and 2nd half scoring?

Metta doesn't make that clutch shot (in the WCF, IIRC) and it's over. You only have to look at today's Gasol to see how good was 09-10 Gasol. Remember 6-24? Complete bailout.

He does get the credit for those two though, because he was the focus of the offense (the proverbial 'man').



This isn't up for discussion, tbh.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol who do you think was getting triple-teamed every possession? Once Shaq left town it was ":cry trade me or get me help :cry"

Shaq was simply the best, most dominant player on those teams. Kirby was simply the beneficiary of that. In other word, classical coattailing.



Metta doesn't make that clutch shot (in the WCF, IIRC) and it's over. You only have to look at today's Gasol to see how good was 09-10 Gasol. Remember 6-24? Complete bailout.

He does get the credit for those two though, because he was the focus of the offense (the proverbial 'man').



This isn't up for discussion, tbh.
Yup leading your team in points and assists through the Western Conference is "classical coattail riding"

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, .492 FG%
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .547 FG%


2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .418 FG%
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, .510 FG%

Everyone knows Shaq was the better player btw.

[midnightpulp]

We have already gone through this before. Kobe played great in the 2001 Playoffs. 32/6/7 on 49FG while LA swept the Western Conference 11-0. 35/9/4 vs Kings, 33/7/7 vs Spurs, both teams had a defensive rating below 100 in th regular season. He didn't win Finals MVP, and because of that you don't give him credit. Shaq was on Kobe's team. How many players in NBA history are better than a prime Shaq? You can count them on your hand, or its even arguable that only MJ is better. Why does Kobe's rings not count because he had a better player on his team? In the 2001 and 2002 Plqyoff combined, Kobe was the leading scorer in 18/35 games and 4/8 series, and led the Lakere in apg. Kobe led the lakers in 4th quarter scoring and 2nd half scoring both those years as well. How does that ring not count? Look, the Kobe-Duncan position on the all time list is close and both can be ahead of each other. But the argument you make for why Duncan is better is just arrogant and misinformed.

Beside the point. Main point is that Duncan, even though he wasn't as good as Shaq during the 3 peat (strangely enough, Duncan played Shaq to a wash in '01, '02, and '04, and has outplayed Shaq overall in the playoffs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01#stats_playoffs::none), was better as a first option on the Spurs than Kobe was as a second option on the Lakers.

Duncan's first title run: 23.2ppg, 11.5rpg, 2.8apg, 2.6blk, on .511 is better than Kobe's first title run of: 21.1ppg, 4.5rpg, 4.4apg, 1.5blk on .430

Duncan's second title run: 24.7ppg, 15.4rpg, 5.3apg, 3.3blk on .529 is better than Kobe's second title run of: 29.4ppg, 7.3rpg, 6.1apg, 1.6stl on .469.

Duncan's third title run: 23.6ppg, 12.3rpg, 2.7apg, 2.3blk on .464 is better than Kobe's third title run of: 26.6ppg, 5.8rpg, 4.6apg, 1.2stl on .434 (these two lines are close, though, but I give the edge to Duncan for his defensive presence. Fact is, a big man's defensive presence simply impacts the game more than a perimeter player's).

No one said "Kobe's rings don't count," but when you're comparing players, it's the lead dog championships that are always considered. It's the way it's worked since the first NBA championship was won and I don't get why Kobe fans think he should be exempt from that standard. Yes, he was very good during the 3 peat, but he was still Pippen to Shaq's Jordan, and was not the engine behind the Lakers in those days. Those teams were built around Shaq, opposing teams built their primary defensive gameplan around stopping Shaq, and Kobe, as much as some Kobe fans hate to admit it, benefited greatly from playing off of him (which is why Manu didn't win the Finals MVP in '05. Reason he was able to go off at times was because of the attention Duncan was drawing from Sheed and Wallace inside. They would collapse on Tim, who would make a pass to Manu cutting in from the weakside or the top of the key. Or the open 3s he would get because of double teams on Duncan. And Duncan set countless picks for Manu to free him up).

Remember what happened when Kobe tried to become the "lead dog" in '04 against the Pistons? The reason he failed so massively (Pistons' defense notwithstanding) is because the offense was still built around Shaq and Kobe going iso every possession was incompatible with Jackson's philosophy at the time. The Lakers looked lost not running the offense through Shaq. This is why we tend to "give more credit" to lead dog championships, because the lead dog is the guy the team is centered around.

It's not about bashing Kobe's 3 peat titles, it's about giving lead dog championships more credit because they simply deserve more.

[ElNono]

<meaningless stats>

Everyone knows Shaq was the better player btw.

He wasn't just the better player. He was the most dominant big in the league at the time, a guy that required double and triple teams to merely contain, and that opened up wide open shots for everyone else.

On defense, he anchored everything and was an intimidating presence inside. If you happened to watch the league back then, I shouldn't even need to be saying this.

IMO, you could replace Kobe with a good shooter in that team and they win 3 titles. You replace Shaq and you don't win a thing.

[Molotov]

spurfan taking it to the kobe nut rider deuce faggalow, the butthurt is all to apparent, tbh

[midnightpulp]

Yup leading your team in points and assists through the Western Conference is "classical coattail riding"

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, .492 FG%
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .547 FG%


2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .418 FG%
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, .510 FG%

Everyone knows Shaq was the better player btw.

Why do you always omit the Finals in Kobe's '01 run? Do you actually believe the '01 WCF was the "real NBA Finals?"

It wasn't. Mainly because Derek Anderson, the Spurs' best perimeter player, was injured (not that it would've mattered. Lakers sweep or win in 5. A healthy Anderson playing might've swung game 2 to the Spurs). And that Spurs team had one of the most laughably bad perimeter defenses with Terry Porter and Danny Ferry being Kobe's primary defenders.

Philly, with Eric Snow, a young Raja Bell, and Aaron McKie, at least had some capable bodies to throw at Bryant. And their interior defense wasn't half bad with Dikembe in there. Not to mention, Kobe at least had to work on defense when Phil would put him on Iverson. No surprise Kobe had his worst series of the '01 playoffs against that team.

The Sixers didn't get absolutely demolished like the Spurs, and even managed to win a game, so that was indeed the real NBA Finals.

[Molotov]

lakerfan laying down and accepting spurfan jizzum in all holes

[Deuce Bigalow]

Still not getting it. Ah well, I tried.

[Thebesteva]

Lol @ these noobs hateing on Kobe.

Lebron may surpass Kobe but we have to see how the story ends. If he doesnt win more than 5 it will ALWAYS be debated. The point is when all is said and the three emperors of our generation will be Jordan, Lebron, and Kobe. Then we'll talk shit to our grandkids about how shitty the players are today compared to the 2000's.

[midnightpulp]

Still not getting it. Ah well, I tried.

Because your argument doesn't make any sense, and pretty much boils down to:

:cry Kobe's titles as the SECOND best player on his team should count just as much as those players who won it as the best player on their team because Kobe's PPG was good :cry

[midnightpulp]

Lebron may surpass Kobe but we have to see how the story ends. If he doesnt win more than 5 it will ALWAYS be debated. The point is when all is said and the three emperors of our generation will be Jordan, Lebron, and Kobe. Then we'll talk shit to our grandkids about how shitty the players are today compared to the 2000's.

Emperors of a generation don't trail two other players of their same generation in Finals MVP wins.

Sorry, dude.

Magic: Emperor of his generation (most Finals MVPs of that era)

Jordan: Emperor of his generation (most Finals MVPs of that era)

Kobe: Emperor because (scored 81 points?)

[Molotov]

lakerfan trying to take off after shitting the bed, in yet another kobe debate, :cry:cry no one understands my wisdom, or how amazing it is to hang on kobe's nuts 24/7 :cry:cry

[Deuce Bigalow]

Emperors of a generation don't trail two other players of their same generation in Finals MVP wins.

Sorry, dude.

Magic: Emperor of his generation (most Finals MVPs of that era)

Jordan: Emperor of his generation (most Finals MVPs of that era)

Kobe: Emperor because (scored 81 points?)
Sorry dude, history will remember Kobe as the better player. Just a fact of life.

[midnightpulp]

lakerfan trying to take off after shitting the bed, in yet another kobe debate, :cry:cry no one understands my wisdom, or how amazing it is to hang on kobe's nuts 24/7 :cry:cry

They always do.

I guess I don't "get it." I really don't though, since I don't understand the point Deuce was trying to make. Kobe's 3 titles alongside Shaq do not carry the same weight as titles won when you are the best player on your team. Scottie Pippen was just as good of a 2nd banana (when you consider the two players' overall contribution to the game and not just "muh PPG") during his first 3 peat as Kobe was during his. Scottie made life very difficult for Magic in '91, something Kobe, 3 inches shorter than Pippen and nowhere near as long, would never, ever be able to do, despite his overhyped defensive reputation.

According to Deuce's logic: Scottie Pippen's 3 titles won during the 1st 3 peat should count just as much, or almost as much, as Bird's 3 titles in a player comparison debate.

[Cry Havoc]

Sorry dude, history will remember Kobe as the better player. Just a fact of life.

No. They won't. History will remember Kobe as an incredibly stellar guard with the caveat that he took two separate teams with 3+ HOF LOCKS alongside and pissed them down the toilet because he couldn't control his ego. Kobe has had three HOF lock big men in history and has thrown every single one of them under the bus at some point.

He's not a leader, at least not in the entirely positive sense of the word. There will be many people who remember Kobe as the better player, but most real basketball fans are ALSO going to remember the times that Kobe literally destroyed his own title chances after they had been gifted to him complete with a little red bow on top. They're going to remember, and then they're going to look at Duncan, a guy who took a small market and in the face of a commish who never wanted to see them in the Finals, won 4(+?) titles with the most successful sports franchise for 15 years. A guy who never, ever, ever threw a teammate under the bus, never had leadership issues, and was always nothing short of peerless at his position. Because when you wade into the "greatest of all-time" categories that accompany the top 10, everything counts.

[midnightpulp]

Sorry dude, history will remember Kobe as the better player. Just a fact of life.

According to whom?

"NBA people" and "analysts?" These are the same NBA people and analysts who are already talking up the Lebron/Jordan comparison despite the fact that Lebron has 5 less championships :lol

Talk about facts, well, history is about facts (usually) and not opinions.

Facts of the matter are:

Duncan has better overall playoff stats.

Duncan is the better Finals performer.

More championships won as the best player on his team.

More Finals MVPs.

Those are the actual "facts of life."

[Deuce Bigalow]

They always do.

I guess I don't "get it." I really don't though, since I don't understand the point Deuce was trying to make. Kobe's 3 titles alongside Shaq do not carry the same weight as titles won when you are the best player on your team. Scottie Pippen was just as good of a 2nd banana (when you consider the two players' overall contribution to the game and not just "muh PPG") during his first 3 peat as Kobe was during his. Scottie made life very difficult for Magic in '91, something Kobe, 3 inches shorter than Pippen and nowhere near as long, would never, ever be able to do, despite his overhyped defensive reputation.

According to Deuce's logic: Scottie Pippen's 3 titles won during the 1st 3 peat should count just as much, or almost as much, as Bird's 3 titles in a player comparison debate.
Can't believe this retardation. Lmao
Pip was nowhere close to scoring as much points as MJ, never led in scoring for a series. Pip did not have the ball in his hand in the 4th quarter and clutch time. Was he even within single digit difference in PPG of Jordan? Shaq averaged less than 2 ppg the last two titles of the 3peat. Kobe actually led the Lakers in scoring for multiple series each of those runs, half of them in the last two titles and he also was the leader in the 4th quarter. It's incredible how ignorant you are.

[Molotov]

They always do.

I guess I don't "get it." I really don't though, since I don't understand the point Deuce was trying to make. Kobe's 3 titles alongside Shaq do not carry the same weight as titles won when you are the best player on your team. Scottie Pippen was just as good of a 2nd banana (when you consider the two players' overall contribution to the game and not just "muh PPG") during his first 3 peat as Kobe was during his. Scottie made life very difficult for Magic in '91, something Kobe, 3 inches shorter than Pippen and nowhere near as long, would never, ever be able to do, despite his overhyped defensive reputation.

According to Deuce's logic: Scottie Pippen's 3 titles won during the 1st 3 peat should count just as much, or almost as much, as Bird's 3 titles in a player comparison debate.



well i sort of undestand why lakerfan would partake in such ridiculous views despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, when you have kobe's raping shlong so far deep down your throat, it inevitably cuts off the oxygen supply to the brain, making it very difficult to process simple information

[Deuce Bigalow]

According to whom?

"NBA people" and "analysts?" These are the same NBA people and analysts who are already talking up the Lebron/Jordan comparison despite the fact that Lebron has 5 less championships :lol

Talk about facts, well, history is about facts (usually) and not opinions.

Facts of the matter are:

Duncan has better overall playoff stats.

Duncan is the better Finals performer.

More championships won as the best player on his team.

More Finals MVPs.

Those are the actual "facts of life."
That's cool. Doesn't change the fact that Kobe will be remembered as the greater player.

[Thebesteva]

Emperors of a generation don't trail two other players of their same generation in Finals MVP wins.

Sorry, dude.

Magic: Emperor of his generation (most Finals MVPs of that era)

Jordan: Emperor of his generation (most Finals MVPs of that era)

Kobe: Emperor because (scored 81 points?)

He has 2 finals MVP's tho....no respect brah?

[Cry Havoc]

He has 2 finals MVP's tho....no respect brah?

Yeah, saying that Kobe is at worst top 15 is absolutely giving him no respect. Come on now.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe: 5 rings, most of his generation. Accused of sexual assault towards the San Antonio Spurs in the Playoffs.

[Thebesteva]

Kobe: 5 rings, most of his generation. Accused of sexual assault towards the San Antonio Spurs in the Playoffs.

Honestly, I am the biggest Tim Duncan hater. I despised the Spurs during the Lakers rivalry. I never got caught up in that Kings rivalry, or Portland, or anything. But the Spurs were the true rivals to the Lakers. But even I have to admit Tim Duncan, as stoic as he may be and so not LA, is a fucking legend.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Honestly, I am the biggest Tim Duncan hater. I despised the Spurs during the Lakers rivalry. I never got caught up in that Kings rivalry, or Portland, or anything. But the Spurs were the true rivals to the Lakers. But even I have to admit Tim Duncan, as stoic as he may be and so not LA, is a fucking legend.
I got Duncan 1 spot behind Kobe, so obviously he is an all time great.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Game 1 of the 08 WCF...how can anyone think otherwise? The greatest of our generation so far.

[midnightpulp]

He has 2 finals MVP's tho....no respect brah?

Real talk, I believe Kobe's legacy should adhere to the same standards that have been in place for years now. Since Mikan was winning titles with the Minny Lakers and Bill Russell was swatting shots for the Celtic dynasty, an individual player's legacy and his position on the all-time great list is typically determined by how many championships a player won as the team's centerpiece, especially in modern era player debates.

When you talk about Magic ruling the 80s, or Jordan ruling the 90s, they were definitively superior to their peers in pretty much every measurement you can think of. Finals MVPs, championships won as the lead player, statistically (Bird was actually better than Magic here, but Bird declining in 88 due to injury as Magic went on to repeat is what ultimately propelled Johnson over Bird all-time).

On the other hand, Kobe trails both Shaq and Duncan in pretty much everything as far as the post-season is concerned. So, logically speaking, how is he the "better player?"

Now if you put significant weight on the regular season, then I might buy your argument. But being Lakers fans, you guys usually give fuck all about anything that has to do with the regular season.

[midnightpulp]

Game 1 of the 08 WCF...how can anyone think otherwise? The greatest of our generation so far.

Such compelling proof.

Game 4 of the 07 First Round...how could anyone think otherwise? Steve Nash was the rightful 2006 MVP and accused of sexual assault against the Los Angeles Lakers.

[TDMVPDPOY]

doesnt kobe hold the record for choke jobs in a series?

[midnightpulp]

Kobe: 5 rings, most of his generation. Accused of sexual assault towards the San Antonio Spurs in the Playoffs.

How does that carry any weight?

I hope you realize that Duncan has been the best performer other than Jordan (who only played against them for 5 games) against the Lakers in the playoffs in the modern era. Even better than Larry Bird.

25.2ppg, 13.6rpg, 4.2apg, 2.3bpg in 30 games.

Kobe: 28.2ppg, 5.8rpg, 4.7apg, 1.4spg.

So they sexually assaulted each other then.

Stats are pretty much a wash. So there goes your "Kobe owns Duncan in the playoffs" angle.

[midnightpulp]

Game 1 of the 08 WCF...how can anyone think otherwise? The greatest of our generation so far.

And hey, I can cherry pick too. Glad you brought up 08.

Game 4 and 6 of the 08 Finals...how can anyone think otherwise? The 3rd greatest of our generation so far.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806120LAL.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806170BOS.html

[Kidd K]

Yup leading your team in points and assists through the Western Conference is "classical coattail riding"

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, .492 FG%
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .547 FG%


2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .418 FG%
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, .510 FG%

Everyone knows Shaq was the better player btw.

Why'd you exclude their Finals stats?

2001 Finals:

Kobe: 24.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 5.8 APG, .415 FG%
Shaq: 33 PPG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, .573 FG%

2002 Finals:

Kobe: 26.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 5.3 APG, .514 FG%
Shaq: 36.3 PPG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, .595 FG%



Also, 2000 playoffs:
Kobe: 21.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.4 APG, .442 FG%
Shaq: 30.7 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.1 APG, .556 FG%

2000 Finals:

Kobe: 15.6 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 4.2 APG, .367 FG%
Shaq: 38.0 PPG, 16.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, .612 FG%

[midnightpulp]

Can't believe this retardation. Lmao
Pip was nowhere close to scoring as much points as MJ, never led in scoring for a series. Pip did not have the ball in his hand in the 4th quarter and clutch time. Was he even within single digit difference in PPG of Jordan? Shaq averaged less than 2 ppg the last two titles of the 3peat. Kobe actually led the Lakers in scoring for multiple series each of those runs, half of them in the last two titles and he also was the leader in the 4th quarter. It's incredible how ignorant you are.

:lmao Now that's some retardation.

Either you were too young or still swimming around in a scrotum to have watched those Bulls teams play and have bought the Jordan myth hook-line-and-sinker. Or you're simply spouting nonsense in a pitiful attempt to strengthen your argument.

You know what made those Bulls teams so great in addition to Jordan? They played as a team. If your idiot brain wasn't covered in a thick layer of Kobe's semen, you'd remember the 4th quarter shots Paxon, Kerr, and yes, Pippen hit.

"Pippen didn't have the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and clutch time."

So I take it in this game he scored 32 points in the first 3 quarters and just stopped shooting in the 4th so MJ could take over:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199106120LAL.html

He scored 9 in the 4th. "But he never had the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and clutch time."

And again, why all the fuckin' emphasis on scoring? So what if Pippen and Jordan's point averages weren't as close together as Kobe and Shaq's.

Do you realize Pippen lead that Bulls team in steals and rebounds? He was statistically better in two areas that Jordan himself was very good at as well. But only scoring matters. Rebounds don't equal rings or anything.

Close out game from the second title:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199206140CHI.html

Another game where Pippen scored a bunch of points in the first 3 quarters and "didn't touch the ball in the 4th quarter and clutch time" and just stood back and watched Michael close it out. :lmao

Now first apologize to me for being a moron. And then have your mother apologize to you for drinking too much when she was pregnant with you, which is why you are a moron.

[midnightpulp]

And while we're at it, let's debunk that long believed myth that the Lakers never went to Shaq late in 4th during the 3 peat, and it was Kobe who closed teams out:

Article written in 02-03 season about who the league's best clutch player is.

"Yet for us ultimately the choice remains the same as it has been for some time: Shaquille O'Neal. Free throw shooting aside, no one comes close to scaring defenses like Shaq, and there are key areas where he rates head and shoulders above Nowitzki -- when the shot clock is running down, Nowitzki was only a 43.3% effective shooter compared to Shaq's 54.5%, more of Shaq's *baskets are unassisted, meaning he creates his own points more often, and finally when you need the unstoppable shot, the power slam, there's no one even close (19% of O'Neal's clutch shots are dunks, *half of them unassisted)."

http://www.82games.com/comm3.htm

Another "fact" that serves to put to rest this whole Shaq 1A, Kobe 1B nonsense (which is usually based on the premise that Kobe closed the games out).



*meaning Kobe wasn't playmaking for him in the 4th all that often. Another myth touted by idiot Kobe fans.

[Koolaid_Man]

And while we're at it, let's debunk that long believed myth that the Lakers never went to Shaq late in 4th during the 3 peat, and it was Kobe who closed teams out:

Article written in 02-03 season about who the league's best clutch player is.

"Yet for us ultimately the choice remains the same as it has been for some time: Shaquille O'Neal. Free throw shooting aside, no one comes close to scaring defenses like Shaq, and there are key areas where he rates head and shoulders above Nowitzki -- when the shot clock is running down, Nowitzki was only a 43.3% effective shooter compared to Shaq's 54.5%, more of Shaq's *baskets are unassisted, meaning he creates his own points more often, and finally when you need the unstoppable shot, the power slam, there's no one even close (19% of O'Neal's clutch shots are dunks, *half of them unassisted)."

http://www.82games.com/comm3.htm

Another "fact" that serves to put to rest this whole Shaq 1A, Kobe 1B nonsense (which is usually based on the premise that Kobe closed the games out).



*meaning Kobe wasn't playmaking for him in the 4th all that often. Another myth touted by idiot Kobe fans.

:lol SA fan melting down while pulling an all nighter on ST...did you get you some sleep? :lol...midg you wanna come fuck some Ho's with me this weekend...just say yes and I'll let you know the hotel I will be at...:p:

[Latarian Milton]

:lmao Now that's some retardation.

Either you were too young or still swimming around in a scrotum to have watched those Bulls teams play and have bought the Jordan myth hook-line-and-sinker. Or you're simply spouting nonsense in a pitiful attempt to strengthen your argument.

You know what made those Bulls teams so great in addition to Jordan? They played as a team. If your idiot brain wasn't covered in a thick layer of Kobe's semen, you'd remember the 4th quarter shots Paxon, Kerr, and yes, Pippen hit.

"Pippen didn't have the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and clutch time."

So I take it in this game he scored 32 points in the first 3 quarters and just stopped shooting in the 4th so MJ could take over:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199106120LAL.html

He scored 9 in the 4th. "But he never had the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and clutch time."

And again, why all the fuckin' emphasis on scoring? So what if Pippen and Jordan's point averages weren't as close together as Kobe and Shaq's.

Do you realize Pippen lead that Bulls team in steals and rebounds? He was statistically better in two areas that Jordan himself was very good at as well. But only scoring matters. Rebounds don't equal rings or anything.

Close out game from the second title:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199206140CHI.html

Another game where Pippen scored a bunch of points in the first 3 quarters and "didn't touch the ball in the 4th quarter and clutch time" and just stood back and watched Michael close it out. :lmao

Now first apologize to me for being a moron. And then have your mother apologize to you for drinking too much when she was pregnant with you, which is why you are a moron.
A+++ post, will read again and recommend to my friends

[Juggity]

mid just going in raw on some fools par/per

[Deuce Bigalow]

doesnt kobe hold the record for choke jobs in a series?
No he doesn't. His team is 27-2 with HCA, 27-0 after winning game 1. I don't know where you came to that conclusion lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

How does that carry any weight?

I hope you realize that Duncan has been the best performer other than Jordan (who only played against them for 5 games) against the Lakers in the playoffs in the modern era. Even better than Larry Bird.

25.2ppg, 13.6rpg, 4.2apg, 2.3bpg in 30 games.

Kobe: 28.2ppg, 5.8rpg, 4.7apg, 1.4spg.

So they sexually assaulted each other then.

Stats are pretty much a wash. So there goes your "Kobe owns Duncan in the playoffs" angle.
Wait... So now average stats count?

WTF

[Deuce Bigalow]

And while we're at it, let's debunk that long believed myth that the Lakers never went to Shaq late in 4th during the 3 peat, and it was Kobe who closed teams out:

Article written in 02-03 season about who the league's best clutch player is.

"Yet for us ultimately the choice remains the same as it has been for some time: Shaquille O'Neal. Free throw shooting aside, no one comes close to scaring defenses like Shaq, and there are key areas where he rates head and shoulders above Nowitzki -- when the shot clock is running down, Nowitzki was only a 43.3% effective shooter compared to Shaq's 54.5%, more of Shaq's *baskets are unassisted, meaning he creates his own points more often, and finally when you need the unstoppable shot, the power slam, there's no one even close (19% of O'Neal's clutch shots are dunks, *half of them unassisted)."

http://www.82games.com/comm3.htm

Another "fact" that serves to put to rest this whole Shaq 1A, Kobe 1B nonsense (which is usually based on the premise that Kobe closed the games out).



*meaning Kobe wasn't playmaking for him in the 4th all that often. Another myth touted by idiot Kobe fans.
Nobody said that Shaq never was scoring in the 4th.

Kobe was the leader in points in the 4th quarter of the 2002 NBA playoffs, also 2001 but most of those game did not come down to the wire. In the most important possession of the season, down by 1 with under 30 seconds left in game 7 of the 02 WCF, guess who had the ball?

[midnightpulp]

Wait... So now average stats count?

WTF

In player vs. player debates, head-to-head stats should be the ONLY thing that counts. Head-to-head RECORD is a team achievement. If you want to take the later position, then Nash owns Kobe in the playoffs.

[midnightpulp]

Nobody said that Shaq never was scoring in the 4th.

Kobe was the leader in points in the 4th quarter of the 2002 NBA playoffs, also 2001 but most of those game did not come down to the wire. In the most important possession of the season, down by 1 with under 30 seconds left in game 7 of the 02 WCF, guess who had the ball?

The best perimeter player on the team will usually have the ball in those situations. Manu had the ball plenty of times in down to the wire situations during the 05 and 07 runs. Doesn't make him "1b". Also, the Lakers went through Shaq in OT in that game 7. He had 6 points in the period compared to Kobe's 2, which came as a result of intentional foul freethrows.

But continue to reduce everything down to "moments" because you don't like how the overall statistical picture illustrates that Shaq was the better clutch player in those days.

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan isnt the best power forward of all time because Duncan is a forward in name only. He looks and plays like a center. I dont care what the Spurs list him at to appease his ego. What does he do that Centers dont?

Compare him with other centers and he would be...i dont know...top 10?

[da_suns_fan]

Regardless, Durant or Lebron will probably be 1/2 as the greatest forwards of all time when theyre done.

[midnightpulp]

Duncan isnt the best power forward of all time because Duncan is a forward in name only. He looks and plays like a center. I dont care what the Spurs list him at to appease his ego. What does he do that Centers dont?

Compare him with other centers and he would be...i dont know...top 10?

Doesn't matter what position he's listed as or what position he actually plays. Ultimately, Duncan is a top 10 great regardless of whether you consider him a PF or C.

[Clipper Nation]

In player vs. player debates, head-to-head stats should be the ONLY thing that counts.
Huh? By that logic, Deron Fatass Williams is better than CP3 on the virtue of him only showing up in games against Paul's teams, tbh.... that also fails to account for one player having a better supporting cast than the other...

[da_suns_fan]

Doesn't matter what position he's listed as or what position he actually plays. Ultimately, Duncan is a top 10 great regardless of whether you consider him a PF or C.

1) Jordan
2) Russell
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Kareem
6) Shaq
7) Chamberlin
8) Kobe
9) Hakeem Olajuwon


Duncan would have a shot at 10th (along with Oscar, Elgin, Jerry West, Irving etc)

[midnightpulp]

Huh? By that logic, Deron Fatass Williams is better than CP3 on the virtue of him only showing up in games against Paul's teams, tbh.... that also fails to account for one player having a better supporting cast than the other...

What I meant by that is if someone is going to make a statement of: X player owns Y player head-to-head, then the two player's respective stats when they played each other should be the primary measurement and not head-to-head record. Based on head-to-head playoff record, Paul Pierce "owned" Lebron heads up before last season.

As for the D-Will, Chris Paul comparison. They never matched up in the playoffs, so you can't really determine who owns who in that matchup. Yeah, Deron has gotten the best of Paul in the regular season, having a 14-4 win advantage and slightly better stats, but who gives a fuck about the regular season. If Deron was on the Warriors or something and they faced the Clips in the playoffs, I'd bet you Paul would dominate him.

[TheRealCB]

So I've had Deron's number since then, and we were texting sometimes. And he knew I wanted him to come here. We talked when it was all in the process. I didn't fly up on July 1. I wanted him to come. Cubes had to film freaking Shark Tank. I just watched that for the first time the other night.
I still didn't. I still refuse to watch it.
It was actually not bad.
I haven't seen one episode and I probably won't ever see one.



:lol Dirk being bitter at Cuban

[Deuce Bigalow]

The best perimeter player on the team will usually have the ball in those situations. Manu had the ball plenty of times in down to the wire situations during the 05 and 07 runs. Doesn't make him "1b". Also, the Lakers went through Shaq in OT in that game 7. He had 6 points in the period compared to Kobe's 2, which came as a result of intentional foul freethrows.

But continue to reduce everything down to "moments" because you don't like how the overall statistical picture illustrates that Shaq was the better clutch player in those days.
You just love being delusional.

2001 NBA playoffs series by series

25/5/8 on 48FG
35/9/4 on 47FG
33/7/7 on 51FG
25/8/6 on 42FG

average: 29/7/6 on 47FG/56TS

But keep on living in your little world thinking Manu and Pippen were 01 Kobe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

In player vs. player debates, head-to-head stats should be the ONLY thing that counts. Head-to-head RECORD is a team achievement. If you want to take the later position, then Nash owns Kobe in the playoffs.
What were the 4th quarter stats?

All I know is that Kobe was the better player. If you compare Wade and Dirk in the 2011 Finals you would think that Wade was better by the numbers but if you have seen the 4th quarters you would think otherwise.

Here we're the 4th quarter numbers in games the were CLOSE:

2001 Western Conference Finals


Game 2
4th Quarter: Spurs up 67-66


Kobe Bryant: 9 points, 3-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 2-6 FG, 2-2 FT.....Hits meaningless 3 at the end, so in reality he had 4 points on 1-5 FG when it counted.


Lakers win 88-81


Lakers won the series 4-0


2002 Western Conference Semifinals


Game 3
4th Quarter: Lakers up 74-71


Kobe Bryant: 11 points, 5-5 FG, 1-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 9 points, 4-9 FG
Shaquille O'Neal: 0 points, 0-4 FG


Lakers win 99-89


Game 4
4th Quarter: Spurs up 75-67


Kobe Bryant: 12 points, 3-6 FG, 4-6 FT, Hit game-winner
ENTIRE SPURS TEAM: 10 points
Tim Duncan: 3 points, 0-2 FG, 3-7 FT


Lakers win 87-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 62-61


Kobe Bryant: 10 points, 4-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 5 points, 2-5 FG, 1-1 FT


Lakers won 93-87


Lakers won the series 4-1


2008 Western Conference Finals


Game 1
4th Quarter: Spurs up 72-65


Kobe Bryant: 14 points, 6-8 FG, 2-2 FT, Hit FG to give LA 87-85 lead with 23.9 sec
Tim Duncan: 8 points, 2-5 FG, 4-5 FT


Lakers win 89-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 67-63


Kobe: 17 points, 6-10 FG, 4-4 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 1-4 FG, 4-6 FT


Lakers win 100-92


Lakers win the series 4-1


:toast

[Deuce Bigalow]

In that 08 WCF game 1 Kobe outscored the Spurs by himself in the last quarter and a half.

[midnightpulp]

What were the 4th quarter stats?

All I know is that Kobe was the better player. If you compare Wade and Dirk in the 2011 Finals you would think that Wade was better by the numbers but if you have seen the 4th quarters you would think otherwise.

Here we're the 4th quarter numbers in games the were CLOSE:

2001 Western Conference Finals


Game 2
4th Quarter: Spurs up 67-66


Kobe Bryant: 9 points, 3-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 2-6 FG, 2-2 FT.....Hits meaningless 3 at the end, so in reality he had 4 points on 1-5 FG when it counted.


Lakers win 88-81


Lakers won the series 4-0


2002 Western Conference Semifinals


Game 3
4th Quarter: Lakers up 74-71


Kobe Bryant: 11 points, 5-5 FG, 1-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 9 points, 4-9 FG
Shaquille O'Neal: 0 points, 0-4 FG


Lakers win 99-89


Game 4
4th Quarter: Spurs up 75-67


Kobe Bryant: 12 points, 3-6 FG, 4-6 FT, Hit game-winner
ENTIRE SPURS TEAM: 10 points
Tim Duncan: 3 points, 0-2 FG, 3-7 FT


Lakers win 87-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 62-61


Kobe Bryant: 10 points, 4-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 5 points, 2-5 FG, 1-1 FT


Lakers won 93-87


Lakers won the series 4-1


2008 Western Conference Finals


Game 1
4th Quarter: Spurs up 72-65


Kobe Bryant: 14 points, 6-8 FG, 2-2 FT, Hit FG to give LA 87-85 lead with 23.9 sec
Tim Duncan: 8 points, 2-5 FG, 4-5 FT


Lakers win 89-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 67-63


Kobe: 17 points, 6-10 FG, 4-4 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 1-4 FG, 4-6 FT


Lakers win 100-92


Lakers win the series 4-1


:toast

Classic Deuce deflection. Only focusing on the 4th quarter in games the Lakers won.

Does your idiot brain allow you consider and examine events beyond "moments?"

Here's 8 quarters of Tim Duncan vs. Kobe in road closeout games in series' the Spurs won:

35ppg, 15rpg, 4apg, 1.5blk, .692FG :wow

vs.

18ppg, 3.5rpg, 3apg, 5TO (:lol), .457FG



:toast

[lcastro]

Dirk is right, Kobe is so far still the best player in the last 15 years. Yeah Lebron has had amazing stats and continues to do so, but would you rather have rings or record stats? Lebron has some time before he gets put in front of Kobe. As for Timmy D, he is the best power forward to play the game, no doubt about that! Dirk though is among the great power forwards, glad he got a ring to add to his profile.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Classic Deuce deflection. Only focusing on the 4th quarter in games the Lakers won.

Does your idiot brain allow you consider and examine events beyond "moments?"

Here's 8 quarters of Tim Duncan vs. Kobe in road closeout games in series' the Spurs won:

35ppg, 15rpg, 4apg, 1.5blk, .692FG :wow

vs.

18ppg, 3.5rpg, 3apg, 5TO (:lol), .457FG



:toast
WTF??

"moments"

fucking idiot

[midnightpulp]

WTF??

"moments"

fucking idiot

The 4th quarter is a moment. It is only 25% of an entire game.

What don't you "get?"

"But the 4th quarter is when IT COUNTS, cause ESPN told me so."

Bullshit. The Clippers beat the Rockets last night because they dropped 46 on them in the 1st.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah, you shook.

[ambchang]

You know. I once saw a game in which mengke bateer scored like 2 points vs. shaq, and shaq in the next possession shaq didn't score.

Based on that span of 30 seconds, I cans deduce bateer > shaq. I don't look at things like career stats and overall numbers. All that matters is that short cherry picked moment that supports me.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, you shook.

Nice evasion because you have no rebuttal.

"A player who shoots 0-20 for 3 quarters but scores 15 points in the 4th on 5-5 shooting had the better game than the player who went 15 for 15 through 3 quarters but only scored 3 points on 1-4 shooting in the 4th."

- Deuce logic.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nice evasion because you have no rebuttal.

"A player who shoots 0-20 for 3 quarters but scores 15 points in the 4th on 5-5 shooting had the better game than the player who went 15 for 15 through 3 quarters but only scored 3 points on 1-4 shooting in the 4th."

- Deuce logic.
Making up stuff that I never said

signs of getting shook son

[Deuce Bigalow]

You know. I once saw a game in which mengke bateer scored like 2 points vs. shaq, and shaq in the next possession shaq didn't score.

Based on that span of 30 seconds, I cans deduce bateer > shaq. I don't look at things like career stats and overall numbers. All that matters is that short cherry picked moment that supports me.
A 12 minute span of the 4th quarter of a close game matters. I wouldn't expect you to know this though.

[midnightpulp]

A 12 minute span of the 4th quarter of a close game matters. I wouldn't expect you to know this though.

So does the 12 minute span of the 1st quarter and the 2nd and the 3rd.

Did the Lakers win this game in the 4th:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805270SAS.html

Or this game:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/index.cgi?month=5&day=13&year=2004

And I can post DOZENS more.

This is why placing more importance on 4th quarters than the other 3 quarters is fuckin' stupid. Games aren't won in the 4th. They are simply more memorable. Not more important.

[Deuce Bigalow]

So does the 12 minute span of the 1st quarter and the 2nd and the 3rd.

Did the Lakers win this game in the 4th:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805270SAS.html

Or this game:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/index.cgi?month=5&day=13&year=2004

And I can post DOZENS more.

This is why placing more importance on 4th quarters than the other 3 quarters is fuckin' stupid. Games aren't won in the 4th. They are simply more memorable. Not more important.
IF THE GAME IS CLOSE

[midnightpulp]

Making up stuff that I never said

signs of getting shook son

That's the essence of your argument: 4th quarter stats>all.

Um, guards who are the best freethrow shooters on their team will typically have good 4th quarters in close games their team won because a lot of their scoring comes from intentional fouls. By whittling down a comparison between a big and a perimeter player in that regard is disingenuous. I don't feel like researching the stats, but I'm sure Manu scored more than Duncan in the 4th in close games through '05 until now.

Just post the overall stats from those games. Kobe outperformed Duncan overall anyway in the majority of the games you referenced, so choosing to focus on only the 4th is superfluous.

[midnightpulp]

IF THE GAME IS CLOSE

WHY IS THE GAME CLOSE?

Because of the events that preceded it.

Is it fair to punish a player who had an extraordinary 3 quarters that kept his team close but may have faded in the 4th and exalt his opponent who had a shitty 3 quarters but played well in the 4th?

And I'm not just referring to Kobe/Duncan here. I've seen Kobe in similar situations as well, especially during 06 and 07 when he was tasked with the majority scoring load. Brilliant for 3 quarters but mediocre in the 4th.

The 4th quarter is not an isolated event separate from the rest of the game.

[Jodelo]

midnightpulp shitting on Deuce as usual, per par, nothing new to see!

[midnightpulp]

That's the essence of your argument: 4th quarter stats>all.

Um, guards who are the best freethrow shooters on their team will typically have good 4th quarters in close games their team won because a lot of their scoring comes from intentional fouls. By whittling down a comparison between a big and a perimeter player in that regard is disingenuous. I don't feel like researching the stats, but I'm sure Manu scored more than Duncan in the 4th in close games through '05 until now.

Just post the overall stats from those games. Kobe outperformed Duncan overall anyway in the majority of the games you referenced, so choosing to focus on only the 4th is superfluous.

But I understand why you did so. In two of those games:

Game 2 of the '01 WCF:

Duncan: 40pt, 15rb, 3ast, 4blk, .577FG

Kobe: 28pt, 7rb, 6ast, 2st, .458FG

Game 6 of the '02 WCSF:

Duncan: 34pts, 25rb, 4ast, 2blk, .478FG

Kobe: 26pts, 8rb, 5ast, 1stl, .500FG

[DMC]

translation: " It's close to Valentine's Day and I'm frustrated I have no one to talk to."

Nah bro, I'm married and have too many people to talk to already. How about you, how's Houston today? Did you sell many roses on the corner?

[DMC]

midnightpulp shitting on Deuce as usual, per par, nothing new to see!

With a moniker like "deuce" he's primed for it.

[Venti Quattro]

I love Dirk Diggler, tbh.

[ambchang]

A 12 minute span of the 4th quarter of a close game matters. I wouldn't expect you to know this though.

As oppose to a 48 minute span of playoff game doesn't matter? Or how about a 20 second stretch of a 1 point game. It doesn't matter if a game is close or not, the entire game is important.

And now that mid posted these stats showing Duncan > Kobe, you come in a cherry pick only the games in which the Lakers won and Kobe had good 4th quarters, rather than look at the entire span of their careers, which includes 1215 regular season games and 220 post season games for Kobe, and 1155 regular season games and 190 post season games for Duncan.

Seriously, when your boss does your year end evaluation for you, does he only look at the 2 times you did great work at the end of a project, then ignore all the other days you go sexually harass your female colleagues, be an office lawyer and ran your division 2 times overbudget and failed to deliver any results?