minimum wage wars

[InRareForm]

Http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-wars-round-23/

[boutons_deux]

Raising Minimum Wage Would Ease Income Gap but Carries Political Risks

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/02/13/us/politics/obama-pushes-for-increase-in-federal-minimum-wage.xml?f=19

$9 is still way too low, should be $12 - $15.

[coyotes_geek]

Why stop there? Why not $20? A higher minimum wage is good for the economy, right?

[boutons_deux]

Why stop there? Why not $20? A higher minimum wage is good for the economy, right?

yep, good for the economy, since that wage level spends 100% of income, reduces poverty which reduces crime (all colors), which reduces taxpayers' paying for crime.

I would rather have a $20 mininum wage than spend $30K/year on an inmate.

Something like 15M people working at minimum wage. aka, the working poor, aka Bishop Gecko's 47%

[coyotes_geek]

Sounds pretty good, but we can do better. Let's make minimum wage $40/hr.

[z0sa]

minimum wage should be what every congressman/woman and senator makes.

[coyotes_geek]

minimum wage should be what every congressman/woman and senator makes.

I like it. The 16 year old bagging my groceries definitely needs to be making 6 figures a year.

[Blake]

Sounds pretty good, but we can do better. Let's make minimum wage $40/hr.

or have no minimum wage at all?

[DarrinS]

Increasing the minimum wage will lead to more jobs being created. I'm sure this is what Krugman believes.

[z0sa]

I like it. The 16 year old bagging my groceries definitely needs to be making 6 figures a year.

I have more confidence in my grocery bagger than in most congressmen.

[TeyshaBlue]

yep, good for the economy, since that wage level spends 100% of income, reduces poverty which reduces crime (all colors), which reduces taxpayers' paying for crime.

I would rather have a $20 mininum wage than spend $30K/year on an inmate.

Something like 15M people working at minimum wage. aka, the working poor, aka Bishop Gecko's 47%

Reduces. Now look at the flipside. Increases.

That being said, I think the wage increase would be absorbed by the public fairly easily as an increase in consumer prices. While the increase in salary in the aggregate looks expensive, it does get diluted when spread over various costs and pricing.

[Wild Cobra]

yep, good for the economy, since that wage level spends 100% of income, reduces poverty which reduces crime (all colors), which reduces taxpayers' paying for crime.

I would rather have a $20 mininum wage than spend $30K/year on an inmate.

Something like 15M people working at minimum wage. aka, the working poor, aka Bishop Gecko's 47%

What about because of such measures, a loaf of bread costs $9, gallon of milk $8, etc.

It would probably them cost more than $50k for incarceration also.

[TeyshaBlue]

What about because of such measures, a loaf of bread costs $9, gallon of milk $8, etc.

It would probably them cost more than $50k for incarceration also.

That's a ridiculous question.

[clambake]

That's a ridiculous question.

why you always pickin on wc?

[coyotes_geek]

I have more confidence in my grocery bagger than in most congressmen.

I do too.

And just to clarify, I don't really have a problem with the increase Obama proposed. I'm just in a mood to troll boutons.

[boutons_deux]

What about because of such measures, a loaf of bread costs $9, gallon of milk $8, etc.

It would probably them cost more than $50k for incarceration also.

do really think paying grocery checkout clerk $15/hour would triple the price of food? :lol

do you really think labor figures significantly into factory produced food-like industrial shit?

[TeyshaBlue]

why you always pickin on wc?

That's a ridiculous question.

[coyotes_geek]

What about because of such measures, a loaf of bread costs $9, gallon of milk $8, etc.


I have a hard time believing that minimum wage labor makes up a significant enough portion of the cost of a loaf of bread or gallon of milk to the point where a 10% raise in the minimum wage would result in a 100% increase in cost to consumers.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm just in a mood to troll boutons.

The first step to recovery is to admit you have a problem.

"Hi, my name's TeyshaBlue and I troll idiots on the internet."

Now, you try it.:lol

[boutons_deux]

That's a ridiculous question.

TB :lol iow, you can't answer it, dickless stalker.

[TeyshaBlue]

I have a hard time believing that minimum wage labor makes up a significant enough portion of the cost of a loaf of bread or gallon of milk to the point where a 10% raise in the minimum wage would result in a 100% increase in cost to consumers.

'zactly.

This doesn't make sense to the :fwd:fwd:fwd crowd tho. Expect a youtube from DarrinS momentarily.

[TeyshaBlue]

TB :lol iow, you can't answer it, dickless stalker.

Go back and read that post, you idiot.

[clambake]

he wasn't talking to you, bou.

[coyotes_geek]

The first step to recovery is to admit you have a problem.

"Hi, my name's TeyshaBlue and I troll idiots on the internet."

Now, you try it.:lol

Screw you man! I've got it under control! I can quit anytime I want! I just don't want to right now.

[TeyshaBlue]

he wasn't talking to you, bou.

He's obsessed with me. He thinks I think of him all the time. It's really weird.

[z0sa]

What about because of such measures, a loaf of bread costs $9, gallon of milk $8, etc.

It would probably them cost more than $50k for incarceration also.

I crunched the numbers and a loaf of bread is still cheaper than a gallon of milk.

[z0sa]

I do too.

And just to clarify, I don't really have a problem with the increase Obama proposed. I'm just in a mood to troll boutons.

I got ya man. My sarcasm tends to be a little too understated at times as well.

[clambake]

He's obsessed with me. He thinks I think of him all the time. It's really weird.

if he is a robot, i understand his paranoia, mr. smith.

[coyotes_geek]

I got ya man. My sarcasm tends to be a little too understated at times as well.

:toast

[TeyshaBlue]

Screw you man! I've got it under control! I can quit anytime I want! I just don't want to right now.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSJ21Mt_HWil69duYjxOz6ngBB4WTcU Uv7464DipE03ldb0eFL

[baseline bum]

tb and his natural gas money could give a shit if bread is $9

His 1% ass laughs while 99% fucked and unfuckable

gfy tb :cry

[TeyshaBlue]

http://img.ksl.com/slc/596/59611/5961165.jpg

I say, old boy. You wouldn't be munching on a bag of dicks now would you?

:greedy:greedy:greedy:lol

[Latarian Milton]

minimum wage raised means it's gonna be more difficult to find jobs and those who're already employed are gonna get exploited and enslaved even more

[ElNono]

Increasing the minimum wage will lead to more jobs being created. I'm sure this is what Krugman believes.

link/youtube?

[Wild Cobra]

do really think paying grocery checkout clerk $15/hour would triple the price of food? :lol

do you really think labor figures significantly into factory produced food-like industrial shit?
To such a degree, no. I was of course exaggerating. There will be a cost increase associated with increased wages. I am an advocate of slowly raising the minimum wage. Like anything economic, I am against anything sudden. We need to test what happens as we progress.

If you recall, I have more than once pointed out that wages are generally about 20% of a product. Now that varies from job to job, but a 25% increased wage under that condition would only necessitate a 5% increase for a business to maintain the same profit. It isn't just that simple though. Increased wages will also effect the product prices purchased at the wholesale level, and everyone up the food chain is also going to want more too. In cases where a product or service cannot increased in price, this means lost jobs.

Still, wages should be market driven. The problems are not the minimum wage, but that people are not worth minimum wage in the supply of labor vs. the jobs available. This is what needs fixing. We need to make it next to impossible for low skilled illegal workers to work, and make the demand for workers cause an increase in wages so people will fill the jobs.

[boutons_deux]

"There will be a cost increase associated with increased wages."

I read a comment where some economist predicted a much less than 1% raise in national spending if minimum wage was raised for the 15M minimum wagers.

Boner's simplistic, bubba-pandering take on why ALL Repugs will block any raise in the minimum wage is typical Repug War on Employees.

And of course all the minimum wages dickless bubbas will keep voting Repug, because only Real (White) Men vote only Repug, no matter how bubba-fucking are Repug policies.

[boutons_deux]

Why Obama's Minimum Wage Plan Really Worries The GOP And Business Lobby
What probably concerns House Republicans, as well as the business lobby, most about Obama's proposal is not the nominal minimum wage hike. It's the inclusion of a cost-of-living adjustment, which would tweak the minimum wage each year to adjust for inflation. This would guarantee that workers on the lowest rung of the economic ladder don't lose purchasing power, but it would also mean fast-food companies and other low-wage employers would have to pay higher wages just about every year, except in rare cases of deflation.


On Capitol Hill, it means lawmakers wouldn't have to legislate a new minimum wage every few years. The cost-of-living provision would give members of Congress less to squabble about -- and it would basically wipe out a bargaining chip for those who oppose higher minimum wages.

The president's proposal is only a day old, and the battle lines on the issue have barely been drawn. But given the significance of the indexing portion, Republicans may try to give Democrats some kind of nominal increase in the minimum wage while jettisoning the cost-of-living piece of the package. Whether or not Democrats hold strong to the inflation measure may determine if they produce a truly progressive piece of legislation. Without it, the proposal isn't much different from previous minimum wage increases, both Democratic and Republican.

Although indexing is championed mostly by advocates for low-wage workers, the idea has found some conservative adherents as well, given that it provides employers with predictability. Former GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney, most notably, said on the campaign trail last year that he supported tying the minimum wage to inflation (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/11/mitt-romney-south-carolina-minimum-wage_n_1200418.html). (He later qualified his remarks (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/romney-minimum-wage_n_1327893.html), saying the minimum wage shouldn't be raised in a weak economy.) Obama, in his address, jokingly referred to indexing as "an idea that Governor Romney and I actually agreed on last year."

The idea is apparently less popular with House Republicans, however. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) was asked by CNN's Jake Tapper after the address if he agreed with his former running-mate on the matter of indexing.

"I have never been a fan of that idea," Ryan responded (http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/13/rep-paul-ryan-to-tapper-he-underplayed-the-enormity-of-the-task-before-us-which-is-to-confront-a-debt-crisis/). "I think it is inflationary. I think it actually is counterproductive in many ways. You end up costing jobs from people who are at the bottom rung of the economic ladder."

"Look," Ryan added, "I wish we could just pass a law saying everybody should make more money without any adverse consequences."


But even given the sluggish economic recovery, Republicans who vehemently oppose the proposal run the risk of looking callous at a time when millions of Americans work but remain poor (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2010.pdf). After all, minimum wage hikes poll very well (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/06/americans-minimum-wage-poll_n_752921.html) with the general public.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/obama-minimum-wage-republicans_n_2680397.html?utm_hp_ref=daily-brief?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=021413&utm_medium=email&utm_content=NewsEntry&utm_term=Daily%20Brief

Come on, Repugs, kill both the indexing AND the min wage hike, fuck over the mooching/taking 47% yet again.

[Trainwreck2100]

minimum wage raised means it's gonna be more difficult to find jobs and those who're already employed are gonna get exploited and enslaved even more

I'll agree to that second part

[TeyshaBlue]

Why Obama's Minimum Wage Plan Really Worries The GOP And Business Lobby
What probably concerns House Republicans, as well as the business lobby, most about Obama's proposal is not the nominal minimum wage hike. It's the inclusion of a cost-of-living adjustment, which would tweak the minimum wage each year to adjust for inflation. This would guarantee that workers on the lowest rung of the economic ladder don't lose purchasing power, but it would also mean fast-food companies and other low-wage employers would have to pay higher wages just about every year, except in rare cases of deflation.


On Capitol Hill, it means lawmakers wouldn't have to legislate a new minimum wage every few years. The cost-of-living provision would give members of Congress less to squabble about -- and it would basically wipe out a bargaining chip for those who oppose higher minimum wages.

The president's proposal is only a day old, and the battle lines on the issue have barely been drawn. But given the significance of the indexing portion, Republicans may try to give Democrats some kind of nominal increase in the minimum wage while jettisoning the cost-of-living piece of the package. Whether or not Democrats hold strong to the inflation measure may determine if they produce a truly progressive piece of legislation. Without it, the proposal isn't much different from previous minimum wage increases, both Democratic and Republican.

Although indexing is championed mostly by advocates for low-wage workers, the idea has found some conservative adherents as well, given that it provides employers with predictability. Former GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney, most notably, said on the campaign trail last year that he supported tying the minimum wage to inflation (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/11/mitt-romney-south-carolina-minimum-wage_n_1200418.html). (He later qualified his remarks (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/romney-minimum-wage_n_1327893.html), saying the minimum wage shouldn't be raised in a weak economy.) Obama, in his address, jokingly referred to indexing as "an idea that Governor Romney and I actually agreed on last year."

The idea is apparently less popular with House Republicans, however. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) was asked by CNN's Jake Tapper after the address if he agreed with his former running-mate on the matter of indexing.

"I have never been a fan of that idea," Ryan responded (http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/13/rep-paul-ryan-to-tapper-he-underplayed-the-enormity-of-the-task-before-us-which-is-to-confront-a-debt-crisis/). "I think it is inflationary. I think it actually is counterproductive in many ways. You end up costing jobs from people who are at the bottom rung of the economic ladder."

"Look," Ryan added, "I wish we could just pass a law saying everybody should make more money without any adverse consequences."


But even given the sluggish economic recovery, Republicans who vehemently oppose the proposal run the risk of looking callous at a time when millions of Americans work but remain poor (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2010.pdf). After all, minimum wage hikes poll very well (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/06/americans-minimum-wage-poll_n_752921.html) with the general public.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/obama-minimum-wage-republicans_n_2680397.html?utm_hp_ref=daily-brief?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=021413&utm_medium=email&utm_content=NewsEntry&utm_term=Daily%20Brief
.......Mindless prattle.......

I'm not a fan of inflation indexing. It's not region specific and under compensates workers in high cost of living areas. A codified 3 year appropriation cycle would be cleaner and likely more effective.

[boutons_deux]

OOPS: GOP Rep. Inadvertently Makes The Case For Nearly Doubling The Minimum Wage (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/02/14/1596051/blackburn-minimum-wage-oops/)


BLACKBURN: What we’re hearing from moms and from school teachers is that there needs to be a lower entry level, so that you can get 16-, 17-, 18-year-olds into the process. Chuck, I remember my first job, when I was working in a retail store, down there, growing up in Laurel, Mississippi. I was making like $2.15 an hour. And I was taught how to responsibly handle those customer interactions. And I appreciated that opportunity.

Making $2.15 an hour certainly does sound worse than today’s minimum wage, which federal law mandates must be at least $7.25 an hour. But what Blackburn didn’t realize is that she accidentally undermined her own argument, since the value of the dollar has changed immensely since her teenage years. Blackburn was born in 1952, so she likely took that retail job at some point between 1968 and 1970. And according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ inflation calculator, the $2.15 an hour Blackburn made then is worth somewhere between $12.72 and $14.18 an hour (http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm/) in today’s dollars, depending on which year she started.

At that time, the minimum wage was $1.60, equivalent to $10.56 in today’s terms. Today’s minimum wage is equivalent to just $1.10 an hour in 1968 dollars, meaning the teenage Blackburn managed to enter the workforce making almost double the wage she now says is keeping teenagers out of the workforce.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/02/14/1596051/blackburn-minimum-wage-oops/

Just the right-wing dumb bitch politician who said she worked her way through college in the 1970s, so she can't see why it can't be done now (as if college costs haven't increased since 1970s). IIRC she wanted to kill Pell grants completely.

[boutons_deux]

Minimum Wage Should Be More Than $20
If the federal minimum wage had kept pace with changes in worker productivity, busboys and baristas would be making at least $21.72 an hour today, according to a study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

The report, which will be released in March, found that advances in technology have increased the amount of goods and services workers can produce. But as that progress was made, wages remained relatively flat.

The study brings to mind a figure (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/06/speedup-americans-working-harder-charts) published in Mother Jones in the summer of 2011. The magazine reported that “If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000.”

If American workers had that much money in their pockets, they would have the means to buy the manufactured goods and services they’re currently skimping on, and the demand crisis that has crippled the economy since 2008 would disappear. Industrialists would get richer off the increased sales, and money collected in taxes would likely make all state and federally paid social programs, including education and health care, feasible.

Instead, that money has gone to the richest 1 percent of Americans, who use much of it for gambling in derivatives markets and investment in existing property, rather than new, productive industries. (Eighty percent (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/michael-hudson-on-how-finance-capital-leads-to-debt-servitude.html) of all credit in the United States goes toward the purchase of real estate.)

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/minimum_wage_should_be_over_20_20130214/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Truthdig+Truthdig%3A+Drilling +Beneath+the+Headlines

[Wild Cobra]

Bouton's....

You and the articles you pick are professional Cherry Pickers. You should go to The Dalles Oregon during the Cherry Harvest season...

That $1.60/hr was an anomaly. For what ever reason, the minimum wage went from $1.15 in 1964, to $1.25 in 1965 (8.7%), to $1.40 in 1967(12%), to $1.60 in 1968 (14.3%). Total increase 1964 to 1968 was 39.4%. Someone must have noted a mistake in what ever formula they used. It went down to $1.30 in 1969. Now it was a 13% increase over 5 years.

8.61% average annual increase 1964 to 1968.

2.48% average annual increase 1964 to 1969.

[boutons_deux]

“If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000.”

The VRWC got going in the early 70s, starting with Lewis Powell's "take OUR country back for the 1%" memo, Tricky Dickhead Nixon killing pre-K funding (keep 'em stupid, esp the poor ones).

[Wild Cobra]

Does this make any sense?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Wage_labour.jpg

Now in 2007, the largest minimum wage increase in decades was implement. Unemployment skyrocketed shortly afterward.

[Wild Cobra]

To combat unemployment, the supply vs. labor pool needs balancing.

Get rid of illegal immigration!

[TeyshaBlue]

To combat unemployment, the supply vs. labor pool needs balancing.

Get rid of illegal immigration!

That's a ridiculous statement.

[TeyshaBlue]

Does this make any sense?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Wage_labour.jpg

Now in 2007, the largest minimum wage increase in decades was implement. Unemployment skyrocketed shortly afterward.
The economy crashed and burned shortly afterward. They were not related events. Fuck.

[Wild Cobra]

The economy crashed and burned shortly afterward. They were not related events. Fuck.
Not 100%, but you cannot dismiss this either as a factor. Besides, people like ShazBot live on correlation equals causation.

[TeyshaBlue]

Not 100%, but you cannot dismiss this either as a factor. Besides, people like ShazBot live on correlation equals causation.
I can absolutely dismiss this as a factor. It was a real estate driven, finance-centric crash, not an employment cost driven crash. Just stop.
"correlation equals causation."
That's exactly what you did. Exactly. omfg.

[Wild Cobra]

I can absolutely dismiss this as a factor. It was a real estate driven, finance-centric crash, not an employment cost driven crash. Just stop.
"correlation equals causation."
That's exactly what you did. Exactly. omfg.
Real Estate driven?

Bullshit.

Did the banks having problems cause people not to pay their contractual commitments?

[TeyshaBlue]

Real Estate driven?

Bullshit.

Did the banks having problems cause people not to pay their contractual commitments?

mortgage backed securities ring a bell?

Stop. You're making an ass out of yourself. Again.

[Wild Cobra]

In 1968, minimum wage went up by 14.29%. Unemployment climbed from 3.5% to 6% by 1971.

In 1974, minimum wage went up by 18.75%. Unemployment climbed from 4.6% to 9% by 1975.

In 1978, minimum wage went up by 15.22%. Unemployment climbed from 6% to over 10% by 1983.

In 1990, minimum wage went up by 13.43%. Unemployment climbed just over 5% to almost 8% by 1993.

In 2007, minimum wage went up by 13.59%. Unemployment climbed from 4% to over 10% by 2009.

[Wild Cobra]

mortgage backed securities ring a bell?

Stop. You're making an ass out of yourself. Again.
How does losing an investment make people lose their jobs?

[TeyshaBlue]

How does losing an investment make people lose their jobs?

Are you serious? Can you not connect the dots between a financial crash, the credit market (you know, the stuff businesses use to expand ((Omfg)), retraction of GDP, and unemployment?

GTFO. You can't have this discussion.

[boutons_deux]

How inflation eats up non-indexed minimum wage

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/History_of_US_federal_minimum_wage_increases.svg

[TeyshaBlue]

How inflation eats up non-indexed minimum wage

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/History_of_US_federal_minimum_wage_increases.svg

Don't you think indexing short changes those that live in higher cost areas?

[boutons_deux]

Real Estate driven?

Bullshit.

Did the banks having problems cause people not to pay their contractual commitments?

predatory + sub-prime lending, piggyback mortages, etc, should never have been written by the lenders. So yes, the lenders DID cause the unqualified borrowers to default.

[boutons_deux]

Research Papers on The Impact of the Minimum Wage on Jobs

Two decades of rigorous economic research have found that raising the minimum wage does not result in job loss. While the simplistic theoretical model of supply and demand suggests that raising wages reduces jobs, the way the labor market functions in the real world is more complex. Researchers have examined the scores of minimum wage increases that have occurred at the state and federal level and found that these raises have not cut jobs or slowed job growth.

http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/job-loss

[TeyshaBlue]

Research Papers on The Impact of the Minimum Wage on Jobs

Two decades of rigorous economic research have found that raising the minimum wage does not result in job loss. While the simplistic theoretical model of supply and demand suggests that raising wages reduces jobs, the way the labor market functions in the real world is more complex. Researchers have examined the scores of minimum wage increases that have occurred at the state and federal level and found that these raises have not cut jobs or slowed job growth.

http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/job-loss

That's a great link. I was reading from it earlier and ran across this study. http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/166-08.pdf
It's pretty thick, but the summaries are reasonably clean.

[angrydude]

That's a great link. I was reading from it earlier and ran across this study. http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/166-08.pdf
It's pretty thick, but the summaries are reasonably clean.

minimum wage jobs prevent the least employable people from getting jobs.

example,

black teens have an unemployment rate of 40%. why are you such a rascist?

[Jacob1983]

Some wingnut on WBAP was bitching about this and I wanted to pistol whip him. He was saying that minimum wage folks aka the working class don't need to be paid higher. They just need more skills according to him. That asshole should come work at a retail store, a department store, a fast food place, or a restaurant and see if he likes making 8 dollars an hour and being treated like a minion. Hard work does not always equate success. You have to have connections, lie, cheat, steal, stab people in the back, and have a little luck.

[Wild Cobra]

How inflation eats up non-indexed minimum wage

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/History_of_US_federal_minimum_wage_increases.svg
What happens if you superimpose illegal immigrant levels?

[Wild Cobra]

That's a great link. I was reading from it earlier and ran across this study. http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/166-08.pdf
It's pretty thick, but the summaries are reasonably clean.
Those have nothing to do with my claim.

I am an advocate of slowly raising the minimum wage. Like anything economic, I am against anything sudden.
I challenge any of you to disprove the 5 timelines I listed as not having an effect of the following unemployment, where the sudden increase of minimum wage was 13% or more.

[Wild Cobra]

Looking up information, I just discovered something I didn't know. The reason why the data is funny in some online databases is where they get the information from. There is the original 1938 act, a 1961 amendment, and a 1966 supplement. The minimum wage in 1968 was $1.60/hr, but only for some jobs. The actual minimum wage was $1.15/hr. There were three job categories until 1978 when they were uniform.


The 1938 Act was applicable generally to employees engaged in interstate commerce or in the production of goods for interstate commerce.

The 1961 Amendments extended coverage primarily to employees in large retail and service enterprises as well as to local transit, construction, and gasoline service station employees.

The 1966 Amendments extended coverage to State and local government employees of hospitals, nursing homes, and schools, and to laundries, drycleaners, and large hotels, motels, restaurants, and farms. Subsequent amendments extended overage to the remaining Federal, State and local government employees who were not protected in 1966, to certain workers in retail and service trades previously exempted, and to certain domestic workers in private household employment.

The above first two were $1.60 in 1968 from $1.40 the previous year. They increased to $2.00, $210, and $2.30 in '74, '75, and '76. The third catagory which now adds fast food, farming, etc. to a guaranteed minimum wage is:

1967 $1.00
1968 $1.15
1969 $1.30
1970 $1.45
1971 $1.60
1974 $1.90
1976 $2.00
1977 $2.30

[Wild Cobra]

I crunched the numbers and a loaf of bread is still cheaper than a gallon of milk.
Did you consider the different amount of labor involved in each?

[Wild Cobra]

This article is a lie



At that time, the minimum wage was $1.60, equivalent to $10.56 in today’s terms. Today’s minimum wage is equivalent to just $1.10 an hour in 1968 dollars, meaning the teenage Blackburn managed to enter the workforce making almost double the wage she now says is keeping teenagers out of the workforce.

1967 $1.00
1968 $1.15
1969 $1.30
1970 $1.45
1971 $1.60
1974 $1.90
1976 $2.00
1977 $2.30


Today’s minimum wage is equivalent to just $1.10 an hour in 1968 dollars

Looks pretty close to me.

[Wild Cobra]

Are you serious? Can you not connect the dots between a financial crash, the credit market (you know, the stuff businesses use to expand ((Omfg)), retraction of GDP, and unemployment?

GTFO. You can't have this discussion.
If you say so. I understand the connection you make, but keep in mind, if a company is operating in "need to borrow" mode, then they are ready to fail under any economic hiccup.

There is a clear connection between large mandated increases in minimum wages, and recession. Recession has always followed large minimum wage increased over the last 50 years, except for the latter 90's when we had the trifecta. Y2K scare, internet boom, and a paradigm shift in semiconductor manufacturing. Then it crashed when these bubbles burst, just after 2000.

[boutons_deux]

Don't you think indexing short changes those that live in higher cost areas?

The national minimum needs to be pro-rated for the well-known, long-history COL index per region, and then also inflation-indexed.

one-mw-fits-everywhere is probably a stupidity Congress will maintain.

Some cities and states already have mw's above the federal. And they are welcome to continue that. "It's Their State" -- dubya

And of course it's nearly always the Confederate/flyover/rural/low-wage states that have have a minimum wage at or BELOW federal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States

[boutons_deux]

if a company is operating in "need to borrow" mode, then they are ready to fail under any economic hiccup.

WTF? very few companies can finance operations and expansion out of cash flow, and so they are indebted, NOT ready to fail. there's the famous "debt to equity" ratio which needs to be watched, but NO debt is extremely rare, esp for medium/large companies.

I like to see how many companies in those holding $2T+ of cash are simultaneously holding debt.


There is a clear connection between large mandated increases in minimum wages, and recession. Recession has always followed large minimum wage increased over the last 50 years, except for the latter 90's when we had the trifecta. Y2K scare, internet boom, and a paradigm shift in semiconductor manufacturing. Then it crashed when these bubbles burst, just after 2000.

your connection between raising the minimum wage and recession is too simplistic. Raising the minimum wage could be aligned with unstable capitalism's business cycles, raised when the cycle is up. You need to show several, even many studies "proving" explicitly that minimum wage hikes CAUSE recession. And with the minimum wage raised, the business cycle still returns to boom, and unemployment rate drops. How do you explain that?

[Wild Cobra]

Believe as you wish Boutons.

very few companies can finance operations and expansion out of cash flow
Please note that I said:

if a company is operating in "need to borrow" mode
If you wish not to be honest in a debate, I won't bother treating you like an adult.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Does this make any sense?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Wage_labour.jpg

Now in 2007, the largest minimum wage increase in decades was implement. Unemployment skyrocketed shortly afterward.


Research Papers on The Impact of the Minimum Wage on Jobs

Two decades of rigorous economic research have found that raising the minimum wage does not result in job loss. While the simplistic theoretical model of supply and demand suggests that raising wages reduces jobs, the way the labor market functions in the real world is more complex. Researchers have examined the scores of minimum wage increases that have occurred at the state and federal level and found that these raises have not cut jobs or slowed job growth.

http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/job-loss


A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

[Wild Cobra]

Again Fuzzy, you think you are a genius to misrepresent what I say. Are you capable of absorbing everything I said?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I quoted you, dumbass. How does one misrepresent when you are quoted in totality and with precision?

[Wild Cobra]

I quoted you, dumbass. How does one misrepresent when you are quoted in totality and with precision?
By taking a single passage rather than the sum/context of my several posts you dumbshit. Attaching two more quotes the way you did.

Does that make you feel like a genius?

How about directly telling me what you disagree with?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

By taking a single passage rather than the sum/context of my several posts you dumbshit. Attaching two more quotes the way you did.

Does that make you feel like a genius?

No. Why would it?

And I still fail to see how taking a post, the whole post, is a misrepresentation. I don't really give a shit about your typical dissembling. i just find it hilarious how you dumb shit down time and again. Just because you get called on it then go google hunting does not make your initial statement any less idiotic.

Are you saying you no longer stand by that statement?

[Wild Cobra]

I see.

You are incapable of a debate.

Goodbye troll.

[Wild Cobra]

Are you saying you no longer stand by that statement?
I don't play your childish guessing games.

How about directly telling me what you disagree with?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol 'debate' As I said I have zer interest in 'debating' your most recent google compilation.

misrepresent [ˌmɪsrɛprɪˈzɛnt]
vb
(tr) to represent wrongly or inaccurately

It's a verbatim quotation where you applied basic supply and demand. There is absolutely nothing 'wrong' or 'inaccurate.'

I then followed up with a quote of how doing exactly what you did is simplistic. That was followed up with a Russell quote where he states that a stupid man has to simplify things in order to understand.

If anyone is failing at the debate is by using words like 'misrepresent' that you apparently do not understand.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow...

Are you saying that the unemployment rate did not skyrocket after the 2007 minimum wage increase?

Are you saying unemployment didn't sharply increase five of the six times in the past after minimum wage was increased by more than 13%?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't play your childish guessing games.

That's not me guessing. That is a question.

I have made no comment about whether or not I agree or disagree. I just see you oversimplifying as you are wont to do and am pointing it out. I find it amusing that you do it time and again.

[Wild Cobra]

That's not me guessing. That is a question.

I have made no comment about whether or not I agree or disagree. I just see you oversimplifying as you are wont to do and am pointing it out. I find it amusing that you do it time and again.
I see...

You think your opinion is fact...

You must think you are a genius.

FYI...

A simplified diagram does not to pretend to address everything. You are trying to make a mountain of a molehill.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wow...

Are you saying that the unemployment rate did not skyrocket after the 2007 minimum wage increase?

Are you saying it didn't increase five of the six times in the past after it was increased by more than 13%?

:lol After you criticize my question you follow up with this bullshit?

I have not even commented on it one way or another. I am saying that your S&D comment was a typical oversimplification from you.

Teysha already said all that needed to be said about this other nonsense from you.

[Wild Cobra]

:lol After you criticize my question you follow up with this bullshit?

I have not even commented on it one way or another. I am saying that your S&D comment was a typical oversimplification from you.

Teysha already said all that needed to be said about this other nonsense from you.
Yes, I get it.

You aren't here for debate. You are here as a troll.

I have to admit. I am curious about how fucking pathetic your real life must be, for you to be like this.

You are now on passive ignore.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I see...

You think your opinion is fact...

You must think you are a genius.

FYI...

A simplified diagram does not to pretend to address everything. You are trying to make a mountain of a molehill.

Opinion that you are stupid? Well, I do think it is merited based on a mountain of empirical evidence. I also think this is some intellectual cowardice. You used an oversimplified model to describe the labor market. It's not as dumb as you ocean as a soda but it's still typical.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yes, I get it.

You aren't here for debate. You are here as a troll.

I have to admit. I am curious about how fucking pathetic your real life must be, for you to be like this.

You are now on passive ignore.

:lol You have been saying this for weeks now. I will tell you the same thing I said before. I don't do this for you. I am still going to point out your insipid nonsense regardless of a response from you. You had me on ignore for a year and I still did it.

You felt it germane to show an oversimplified model. You don't even argue about that, you just try and pull your typical 'nobody understands me' bullshit.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Back to before the WC derail.


Does this make any sense?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Wage_labour.jpg

Now in 2007, the largest minimum wage increase in decades was implement. Unemployment skyrocketed shortly afterward.


Research Papers on The Impact of the Minimum Wage on Jobs

Two decades of rigorous economic research have found that raising the minimum wage does not result in job loss. While the simplistic theoretical model of supply and demand suggests that raising wages reduces jobs, the way the labor market functions in the real world is more complex. Researchers have examined the scores of minimum wage increases that have occurred at the state and federal level and found that these raises have not cut jobs or slowed job growth.

http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/job-loss


A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

[TeyshaBlue]

If you say so. I understand the connection you make, but keep in mind, if a company is operating in "need to borrow" mode, then they are ready to fail under any economic hiccup.

There is a clear connection between large mandated increases in minimum wages, and recession. Recession has always followed large minimum wage increased over the last 50 years, except for the latter 90's when we had the trifecta. Y2K scare, internet boom, and a paradigm shift in semiconductor manufacturing. Then it crashed when these bubbles burst, just after 2000.

Leveraging money and debt is business 101. It is a normal course of business. You're completely lost here. There is no connection between min wage and recessions. You need to back that shit up with actual studies or GTFO.

[TeyshaBlue]

What happens if you superimpose illegal immigrant levels?

Nothing. They are laughably unrelated.

[TeyshaBlue]

Believe as you wish Boutons.

Please note that I said:

If you wish not to be honest in a debate, I won't bother treating you like an adult.
Look, idiot. When you are faced in opposition by boutons and me, you can rest assured your position is completely fucked up, which it is.

I said:
Are you serious? Can you not connect the dots between a financial crash, the credit market (you know, the stuff businesses use to expand ((Omfg)), retraction of GDP, and unemployment?
Notice I made no mention of frail businesses in need to borrow mode.

Then, in frantic obfuscation mode you decided to restrict the connection to "need to borrow mode" what ever the fuck that is. non sequitur.


If you say so. I understand the connection you make, but keep in mind, if a company is operating in "need to borrow" mode, then they are ready to fail under any economic hiccup.

There is a clear connection between large mandated increases in minimum wages, and recession. Recession has always followed large minimum wage increased over the last 50 years, except for the latter 90's when we had the trifecta. Y2K scare, internet boom, and a paradigm shift in semiconductor manufacturing. Then it crashed when these bubbles burst, just after 2000.

If there is such a clear connection between large, (lol) mandated increases in minimum wages and recesssion, then post a credible cite or two to back that shit up.
You make the assertion, you fucking back it up. If not, then climb a wall of dicks and GTFO.

[boutons_deux]

65 Republicans Supported Increasing The Minimum Wage When Bush Was President (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/02/15/1601831/65-republicans-supported-increasing-the-minimum-wage-when-bush-was-president/)
A ThinkProgress analysis finds that at least 67 Republicans who are still in Congress today backed an increase in the minimum wage in some form, including Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI).

Political momentum for an increase began in 2004, after President Bush announced his support for a bill (http://www.debates.org/index.php?page=october-13-2004-debate-transcript) by now-Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY). After Democrats won majorities of the House and Senate in the 2006 elections, a minimum wage increase became one of their first priorities. The Fair Minimum Wage Act (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:H.R.2:) — which also included tax cuts for small businesses — passed the House (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll018.xml) and Senate (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00042) with overwhelming bipartisan support. When the increase was folded into a larger appropriations bill, it again passed with strong bipartisan support and was eventually signed into law by Bush. 26 House Republicans even signed a letter (http://web.archive.org/web/20060731122616/http:/www.house.gov/shays/news/2006/july/minimumwage.pdf) to then-House Majority Leader John Boehner (R-OH), asking for a vote on a minimum wage increase, including current Representatives Shelley Moore Capito (R-WV), Michael Fitzpatrick (R-PA), Peter King (R-NY), Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ), Christopher Smith (R-NJ), and Fred Upton (R-MI). In incremental stages, the law raised the minimum wage from $5.15-per-hour to $7.25.


Though Ryan ultimately voted against the measure, he argued that he supported raising the hourly rate (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/search/citation.result.CREC.action?congressionalRecord.vo lume=153&congressionalRecord.pagePrefix=H&congressionalRecord.pageNumber=290&publication=CREC) as long as it came with a suitable “offset” of small business relief. “Last year, I supported an increase in the minimum wage because it also included tax relief measures for employers to offset the cost of the proposed minimum wage increase,” he noted in a floor speech, as he announced “with great regret” that he could not back the bill without more small business tax cuts.

Like most Republicans, however, Ryan struck a far more defiant tone in response to Obama’s proposal, dispensing of any caveats and telling CNN that “I think it actually is counterproductive in many ways (http://paulryan.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=319866). You end up costing jobs from people who are at the bottom rung of the economic ladder.”

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/02/15/1601831/65-republicans-supported-increasing-the-minimum-wage-when-bush-was-president/

[z0sa]

Did you consider the different amount of labor involved in each?

I always thought cows enjoyed being milked, except on really cold days, which I can't blame them for.

[boutons_deux]

I always thought cows enjoyed being milked, except on really cold days, which I can't blame them for.

that may be true for your wife or girlfriends, but 4 legged cows getting milked by machines.

[z0sa]

that may be true for your wife or girlfriends, but 4 legged cows getting milked by machines.

You milk your wife?

[TeyshaBlue]

Ok, this is just getting weird.

[z0sa]

Ok, this is just getting weird.

well a machine having a wife is kind of a far stretch, true, but I don't doubt boutons has the programming to milk many cows.

[Wild Cobra]

Funny Tesha, how you didn't address the following of high unemployment an recession following 5 of the six increases above 13%.

That seems a bit beyond coincidence to me.

[TeyshaBlue]

Funny Tesha, how you didn't address the following of high unemployment an recession following 5 of the six increases above 13%.

That seems a bit beyond coincidence to me.
lol at addressing something that's not even proven germane. I also didn't address the likelihood of Elvis living on Neptune.
It's absolutely meaningless unless you can connect the dots. You've failed miserably so far.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ever thought that other issues could cause a recession and high unemployment? Are there common factors to both?

You have to answer these questions and then you can attempt to make your case.

Good luck.

Associated Press-College Station, Tx Feb 15 2013

Texas A&M Scientists Make Startling Discovery

College Station-Today, Dr. Leo Thornsten issued the following:

"In our ongoing research into crop pest eradication and protection, we made a remarkable discovery concerning the common grasshopper. We have observed that when a loud noise is produced in close proximity to a grasshopper, it will jump 8 out of 10 times. In the course of researching the reaction to this stimulus, we removed the legs of the grasshopper, after which, it ceased to jump upon hearing a loud noise.
Therefore, we conclude that grasshoppers do indeed hear with their legs!"

[Wild Cobra]

LOL...

I doubt you understand my point Grasshopper.

It's the sudden large increase that causes the chaos. Instead of waiting years and boosting the minimum wage by large amounts, it should be more frequent, and never more than a few percent at a time.

[TeyshaBlue]

No, one of use doesn't understand your point and it isn't me.

[TeyshaBlue]

LOL...

I doubt you understand my point Grasshopper.

It's the sudden large increase that causes the chaos. Instead of waiting years and boosting the minimum wage by large amounts, it should be more frequent, and never more than a few percent at a time.


There is no connection between min wage and recessions. You need to back that shit up with actual studies or GTFO.

[Wild Cobra]

No connection....

Recession after five of six huge minimum wage increases?

I don't think that needs backing up.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

[TeyshaBlue]

You are the one making the assertation. Back that shit up with data or GTFO.

[TeyshaBlue]

Make the case that minimum wage increases caused the recessions.

You can't.

[TeyshaBlue]

Just saying something followed another is like saying the ignition on your car caused a flat tire.

Fucking ridiculous.

[Wild Cobra]

Make the case that minimum wage increases caused the recessions.

You can't.
Just like you can't show I'm wrong.

Now I am one to normally dismiss a case or correlation and causation as having merit, but five incidents is different than one, and the 6th was during a time of unusual growth, keeping it from occurring.

Can you show me a large rise in unemployment in the last 50 years that did not have a 13%+ increase or more in minimum wage shortly before it occurred?

[Wild Cobra]

Just saying something followed another is like saying the ignition on your car caused a flat tire.

Fucking ridiculous.
What would you call it if it happened five out of six times?

Besides, your example is way out in left field.

Ignition is electrical. Tire pressure is pneumatic. They have no connection. Minimum wage and unemployment are both economic.

Please at lease stay in the same realm of science.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not predicating an argument on this ridiculous piece of non-logic. You are. You cherry picked 5 incidents. Prove they caused a recession or GTFO.

[TeyshaBlue]

What would you call it if it happened five out of six times?

Besides, your example is way out in left field.

Ignition is electrical. Tire pressure is pneumatic. They have no connection. Minimum wage and unemployment are both economic.

Please at lease stay in the same realm of science.

you didn't even understand the simple example. Shocking.

That's exactly what I was stating. They have no connection. Just saying so doesn't mean they do. Prove it.


You cant.

[TeyshaBlue]

GTFO. Now.
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf

[Wild Cobra]

you didn't even understand the simple example. Shocking.

That's exactly what I was stating. They have no connection. Just saying so doesn't mean they do. Prove it.


You cant.
I see.

They are both not part of the economy.

OK...

I'm done with you Fuzzy.

[Wild Cobra]

GTFO. Now.
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf
This is not what we are talking about Fuzzy.

I never said or implied higher minimum wages are a problem. My point is you don't make large changes.

[Capt Bringdown]

Center for Economic and Policy Research:

By all of the most commonly used benchmarks – inflation, average wages, and productivity – the minimum wage is now far below its historical level. By all of these benchmarks, the value of the minimum wage peaked in 1968.

Especially when you look at the productivity benchmark:


Between the end of World War II and 1968, the minimum wage tracked average productivity growth fairly closely. Since 1968, however, productivity growth has far outpaced the minimum wage. If the minimum wage had continued to move with average productivity after 1968, it would have reached $21.72 per hour in 2012 – a rate well above the average production worker wage. If minimum-wage workers received only half of the productivity gains over the period, the federal minimum would be $15.34. Even if the minimum wage only grew at one-fourth the rate of productivity, in 2012 it would be set at $12.25.
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage1-2012-03.pdf

[Wild Cobra]

Captain, that study lies about the minimum wage in 1968. How can any of it be trusted? The minimum wage in 1968 was $1.15/hr. Not $1.60/hr.

[TeyshaBlue]

This is not what we are talking about Fuzzy.

I never said or implied higher minimum wages are a problem. My point is you don't make large changes.

Horseshit. You posited that min wage increases cause recessions. That idiotic position has been destroyed. Go climb a wall of dicks.

[Wild Cobra]

Horseshit. You posited that min wage increases cause recessions. That idiotic position has been destroyed. Go climb a wall of dicks.
Lair...

Fuzzy, I posted that LARGE minimum wage increases cause recession.

[TeyshaBlue]

Lair...

Fuzzy, I posted that LARGE minimum wage increases cause recession.

And you still can't back that shit up.:lmao


Wall of dicks. Now.

[Wild Cobra]

And you still can't back that shit up.:lmao
And you still cannot disprove it.

Five of six times in the last 50 years... I don't think I need to back that correlation up.

[TeyshaBlue]

And you still cannot disprove it.

Five of six times in the last 50 years... I don't think I need to back that correlation up.
Again, for the 10th time. I'm not basing my position on that piece of "data". You want to use it as a fact, fucking prove its a fact.
Correlation means nothing until you can prove causation, idiot.

[Wild Cobra]

Again, for the 10th time. I'm not basing my position on that piece of "data". You want to use it as a fact, fucking prove its a fact.
Correlation means nothing until you can prove causation, idiot.
I know that. How often is anything actually "proven."

Just because someone writes a study, that doesn't make it a fact. Are you that naive? Use your own head.

Would you at least agree that a 13.59% increase after no change in almost 10 years is more of a shock, than the annualized 1.3% would have been?

When we had these last three wage increased, in Jul 1997, it went to $5.85. The last increase was 118 months earlier, to $5.15.

It then jumped another 11.96% ($6.55) Jul '08 and then another 10.69% ($7.25) in Jul '09. Combined, this was a 40.78% increase, that our economy still hasn't recovered from. It's not a static world. One increase in cost starts a chain reaction of events. The unemployment rate didn't start leveling off and coming down until recently, about 2 years after the last increase.

I will contend that since Sep '97, when the increase was 8.42% from $4.75 to $5.15, that if we had an annual 3% increase, we would never have the problems we do today. Today's minimum wage would be $8.01/hr, and $8.25/hr in September.

[Wild Cobra]

Link: Delay the Minimum-Wage Hike (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124476823767508619.html); Jun '09; by David Neumark, UC Irving.

Not part to the above article...

As for Obama wanting to increase the wage to $9/hr in 2015, again, I say not all at once. That's a 24.14% increase. If we start in Sept this year, increase it 5% annually until we get to the cost adjusted $9.00, it will take longer, but it wouldn't be the same economic shock. Then we can keep some annual, or better yet, quarterly index on it.

As for my example of 3% annual, if we did that, Obama's wish of $9.00 per hr would be close. $8.76 in '15 and 9.02 in '16.

[spursncowboys]

The Minority Youth Unemployment ActA higher minimum wage will hurt Obama's most loyal supporters.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323478004578302510280314712.html


setting a floor under the price of labor creates winners and losers. Some workers will get a $1.75 raise. Great. But others—typically the least educated and skilled—will be priced out of the job market and their pay won't rise to $9. It will be zero.University of California at Irvine economist David Neumark has looked at more than 100 major academic studies on the minimum wage, and he says the White House claim of de minimis job losses "grossly misstates the weight of the evidence." About 85% of the studies "find a negative employment effect on low-skilled workers."


A study by economists William Even of Miami University and David Macpherson of Trinity University concludes that in the 21 states where the full 40% wage increase took effect, "the consequences of the minimum wage for black young adults without a diploma were actually worse than the consequences of the Great Recession."
William Dunkelberg, chief economist for the National Federation of Independent Business, says that after the July 2009 increase 600,000 teen jobs disappeared in the next six months even as GDP expanded. In the previous six months, when the economy was still shrinking, half as many teen jobs were lost. The overall teen jobless rate was still 23.4% last month, which means demand for unskilled workers is low even at $7.25 an hour. Demand will be lower at $9.


"Employers may get a more stable workforce due to reduced turnover and increased productivity," the White House says. No doubt employers are slamming their foreheads wondering why they didn't think of that.:lol