Is Tony Parker The Most Dominant pg In The Last 10 Years?

[ivanfromwestwood]

I can't think of another point guard that's been more dominant over the last 10 years has Tony Parker. Even to this day he still seems just a step faster than everybody. Who else in the last 10 years has to sustained that type of play. Best pg of the decade?

[EJFischer]

Chris Paul and aside from this season it's really not close. Prior to that, MVP-era Steve Nash. Come on now.

[ivanfromwestwood]

From 2003-2013 Parker has been top 5 . Who else has maintained that level of play and is getting better as we speak? 26 and 11 tonight.

[ivanfromwestwood]

Besides Chris Paul hasn't won anything. Parkers a 3 time champion, finals mvp. He's won 70% of the games he started.

[EJFischer]

Parker is the starter for the Spurs, and the Spurs have a 70% winning percentage during the Tim Duncan era. Of course Parker has won 70% of his starts. Similarly, to win a ring or get a finals MVP you have to be on a team that can take you to the finals.

Using team stats as an argument for individual dominance is disingenuous. And on individual stats, he's been consistently good but not anywhere near the most dominant of the decade.

[BatManu20]

Steve Nash? Even CP3 is ahead over that period of time. Tony's been great, but not ahead of those two... yet.

[chapnis]

Steve Nash, Kidd perhaps.

[Spur Bank]

Chris Paul and aside from this season it's really not close. Prior to that, MVP-era Steve Nash. Come on now.
First reply is the winner. The only argument for Parker over Paul is that Chris Paul has only played 8 years.

But aside from that detail, I'd put Parker 2nd, although it's almost a dead heat with Nash. Nash's numbers are slightly better (even after the defensive adjustment), but I have to take away for the D'Antoni Factor.

[ivanfromwestwood]

I wonder what Tony Parker's stats look like against Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Jason Kidd during that time. Wins, points, assists, turnovers heads up would be cool to see. Wonder if timvp or Bruno can hook us up with some numbers. I'm off to bed. Gnite ST.

[admiralfats]

Jason Kidd also had some pretty good years in the last ten. Tony is really good but we don't have to go crazy. There are some guys who are definitely better, like Chris Paul. But I think we can take pride in saying tony is one of the best point guards in the league right now. He runs our system perfectly and has blossomed into a really good player.

[mathbzh]

Parker is the starter for the Spurs, and the Spurs have a 70% winning percentage during the Tim Duncan era. Of course Parker has won 70% of his starts. Similarly, to win a ring or get a finals MVP you have to be on a team that can take you to the finals.

Using team stats as an argument for individual dominance is disingenuous. And on individual stats, he's been consistently good but not anywhere near the most dominant of the decade.
Paul is clearly the most dominant PG.
But you can't deny that Parker individual statistics have suffered from Duncan/Ginobili presence.
So, considering team success makes sense.
By the way, in any stretch of games without Duncan or Ginobili, Parker has been having really dominant individual statistics (not only this season).

[TD 21]

If you're talking about this stretch (if you can still call it that at this point), then no; I'd go with '08-'10 Paul. But after that, I can't think of another one I'd put clearly ahead of him.

[ElNono]

No

[spurraider21]

I'd put Nash and CP3 ahead of him

[Brunodf]

2/10

[ffadicted]

fucking gnsf's lol

[ego]

TP > CP in their match ups; idem with Nash
It's difficult to compare individual statistic : different team, different coach, different system.
At the end : TP with three rings and final mvp. It's enough for me to place TP at the first rank.
CP , Jason Kidd and Steve Nash are also extraordinary players but I prefer TP.

Actually http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html



Rank
Status
Player


1
--
LeBron James (http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html#ranking1)


2
--
Kevin Durant (http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html#ranking2)


3
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/microsite/arrow.up.gif
Tony Parker (http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html#ranking3)


4
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/microsite/arrow.dwn.gif
Carmelo Anthony (http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html#ranking4)


5
--
Chris Paul (http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html#ranking5)

[DJB]

No.

[racm]

I'm a Tony fan and TP has only been great the past two seasons; the prior seasons (2005 onward) he was merely very good.

[Obstructed_View]

How quickly we forget Derrick Rose.

[chapnis]

How quickly we forget Derrick Rose.
He hasn't been around for most of the decade.

[will_spurs]

Parker is the starter for the Spurs, and the Spurs have a 70% winning percentage during the Tim Duncan era. Of course Parker has won 70% of his starts. Similarly, to win a ring or get a finals MVP you have to be on a team that can take you to the finals.

Using team stats as an argument for individual dominance is disingenuous. And on individual stats, he's been consistently good but not anywhere near the most dominant of the decade.

So wait a minute, it's fine to use individual stats (a la Nash) even though the player played in a system which was conducive to stat-padding (to the extreme, I might add) even though there was no chance in hell it would translate into any kind of playoffs success; but it's not fine to use team achievements for a player who has always played down to the system and been a key cog in the machine?

Double standards FTW.

Parker is definitely the most successful PG of the last decade (no contest). He owned Nash and Paul every single time they met. Keep watching BSPN highlights while we watch basketball.

[adonis827]

I like Nash and Paul but even in their best years- Parker would eat both in their head to head matches. so even if Nash and Paul would probably have better stat years than tony longoria- I would take Tony any day even at the first day of Tony's career

[blkroadrunners]

How quickly we forget Derrick Rose.

lol he only had one great full season

[Obstructed_View]

lol he only had one great full season

Which was the most dominant by a point guard in the last decade. Did the OP mean ten years of dominance? If so, then the answer is probably Chris Paul.

[pgardn]

No

[DarrinS]

I would say, no other PG has continued to improve his game like TP has throughout his career.

[Spur Bank]

hook us up with some numbers
Just links, but if you haven't seen this, your mind will be blown:

Steve Nash: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html
Tony Parker: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html
Chris Paul: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html

Paul's numbers absolutely blow Parker and Nash out of the water, and pretty much everyone else's too. If you look just at the advanced stats section, they are very comparable to Durant and LeBron. As much credit as Chris Paul gets, and it's a lot of credit, it might not be enough. This is just reinforcing what most in this thread have said, but for those who aren't aware, Chris Paul is an absolute clear #1. There is zero contest to this.

[spurraider21]

Parker has had 2 legitimate MVP caliber seasons (including this year). steve nash had several. cp3 has had a few. i mean if you take out the last 2 seasons you could argue billups > parker. to take these last 2 amazing years and call TP the most dominant point guard of the last 10 years? not sure about that one

[TrainOfThought5]

Tony Parker is the most dominant PG of the decade and Danny Green is Ray Allen? ....... How do we only have 4 rings?

[Raven]

no he is not.

[anakha]

I'm a Tony fan and TP has only been great the past two seasons; the prior seasons (2005 onward) he was merely very good.

Small caveat: I'd toss the 08-09 season up there with these past two as his best overall.

[spurraider21]

Small caveat: I'd toss the 08-09 season up there with these past two as his beat overall.

yeah but i don't think he was in the "best pg in the league" discussion at that point. only last year and this year has he even made a case for it (even then CP3 has just as good, if not better an argument). 2 years of TOP tier pg play =/= 10 years of dominance

[anakha]

yeah but i don't think he was in the "best pg in the league" discussion at that point. only last year and this year has he even made a case for it (even then CP3 has just as good, if not better an argument). 2 years of TOP tier pg play =/= 10 years of dominance

Oh no, I'm not contesting that. Just pointing out that considering only these past two seasons of his as 'great' is doing him a small disservice.

[ShinerBlack]

No way is he the most dominant. Especially when he doesn't play up to par in the playoffs. Having said that, the pass couple of years have been huge for him. He's definately become consistent and I don't cringe everytime he let's a 3 pter fly. He's much better at involving his teammates. I would put him in the top 3 of the decade though.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Everyone get off his fuckin nuts. He is playing well right now. There have been other good PG's in the league. It really doesn't take much for you guys to forget about the rest of the NBA does it? Can we please wait for the playoffs? It would be nice if he could do this against OKC and LAC.

[Drom John]

Not last decade, but career WS active PGs:
136.93 Kidd
128.01 Nash
120.54 Billups
98.01 Paul
89.12 Parker (this year gaining on Kidd, Nash & Billups, getting further behind Paul)
73.23 Bibby
63.10 Davis

[EJFischer]

Paul is clearly the most dominant PG.
But you can't deny that Parker individual statistics have suffered from Duncan/Ginobili presence.
So, considering team success makes sense.
By the way, in any stretch of games without Duncan or Ginobili, Parker has been having really dominant individual statistics (not only this season).

Incorrect. Aside from rebounding, where there is a small observable effect, diminishing returns has been shown to be non-factor in NBA performance. And just qualitatively, if diminishing returns played a major role then there would be no such thing as superteams, which there clearly are.


So wait a minute, it's fine to use individual stats (a la Nash) even though the player played in a system which was conducive to stat-padding (to the extreme, I might add) even though there was no chance in hell it would translate into any kind of playoffs success; but it's not fine to use team achievements for a player who has always played down to the system and been a key cog in the machine?

Double standards FTW.

Parker is definitely the most successful PG of the last decade (no contest). He owned Nash and Paul every single time they met. Keep watching BSPN highlights while we watch basketball.

You...don't actually know what a double standard is, do you?

Yes, It's fine to use individual per minute statistics to assess individual performance even though we know that in some cases (fewer than you think) things like coaches and systems make a difference. And yes, it's not fine to use team achievements for the same purpose. Your hyperbolic contentions about the Suns having "no chance in hell" or Parker being limited by his status as "cog in the machine" don't invalidate the premise, nor make it a double standard.

NBA Basketball has a more unequal talent distribution than any other professional sport in the US. Diminishing returns are demonstrably not a factor. As such, the only coherent way to judge individual performance is through individual statistics. And by individual statistics, Tony has been a good and a great point guard, but not anywhere close to the most dominant over a decade.

[spursfan09]

No he is not. Come on now. He's not even the most dominant pg this year. It's not that TP isn't great, but he has so much competition. There are so many great pg's in the league.

[will_spurs]

He's not even the most dominant pg this year.

Who is? And try to back it up, of course. He is currently listed #3 in MVP race behind 2 non-PGs so I guess that's going to be interesting.

[will_spurs]

Yes, It's fine to use individual per minute statistics to assess individual performance even though we know that in some cases (fewer than you think) things like coaches and systems make a difference. And yes, it's not fine to use team achievements for the same purpose. Your hyperbolic contentions about the Suns having "no chance in hell" or Parker being limited by his status as "cog in the machine" don't invalidate the premise, nor make it a double standard.

If the premise is "most dominant" = "highest individual stats" then I clearly disagree for the reasons I put forward. The question isn't "who is the best stat-padding PG of the last decade?"

Your point about downplaying the influence of the system is crucial in this context. Check Steve Nash's stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html

There's a HUGE disparity in stats between the Phoenix years (the era of Nash's "domination") and his seasons before (Dallas) or after (Lakers). It's pretty clear that d'Antoni's system vastly inflated Nash's numbers, and therefore perceived value. Check Nash's numbers when in Dallas, until he was 29--they are very much like Parker's (except Parker shoots better and scores more). This so-called "domination" is to me purely a consequence of the system.

I will also point out that it's no coincidence that Parker's rise happens just at the time when other players decline (Manu mostly, Duncan somewhat) and he is handed the reins of the team. This is why I feel team achievements are very important in this case.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Nash doesn't and never has played anything better than terrible defense, so to me, I can't take him seriously.

[Aztecfan03]

You...don't actually know what a double standard is, do you?

Yes, It's fine to use individual per minute statistics to assess individual performance even though we know that in some cases (fewer than you think) things like coaches and systems make a difference. And yes, it's not fine to use team achievements for the same purpose. Your hyperbolic contentions about the Suns having "no chance in hell" or Parker being limited by his status as "cog in the machine" don't invalidate the premise, nor make it a double standard.



Thank you.

[mathbzh]

Incorrect. Aside from rebounding, where there is a small observable effect, diminishing returns has been shown to be non-factor in NBA performance. And just qualitatively, if diminishing returns played a major role then there would be no such thing as superteams, which there clearly are

Shown by who? And how do you measure performance?
5 30 ppg scorer are supposed to score a combined 150 ppg?

Check at Bosh, Garnett, Ray Allen... career stats. And now tell me there numbers did not suffer from joining a superteam.
When you share the ball with Duncan & Ginobili, two players who create for themselves and others, you have less scoring and less assist opportunities.

[eric365]

His stats by month :
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3527/splits;_ylt=AsJQr5s9VhKu8UxG60qKIUOYPKB4

November : 16.9 ppg, 7.3 ast, 48.3 %FG
December : 21.1 ppg, 7.4 ast, 55.1 %FG
January : 21.9 ppg, 7.9 ast, 56.3 %FG
February : 27.3 ppg, 9.5 ast, 55.0 %FG

[Obstructed_View]

Nash doesn't and never has played anything better than terrible defense, so to me, I can't take him seriously.

AFAIC, Nash has two MVP trophies: Shaq's and Lebron's.

And it's too bad that the answer to the OP's question obscures the fact that Tony Parker has done a remarkable job of improving every year of his career. I'm hard pressed to think of a player who's consistently worked to step up his game every year more than Parker has.

[will_spurs]

AFAIC, Nash has two MVP trophies: Shaq's and Lebron's.

I'd say one of them is Kobe's, actually.

[ivanfromwestwood]

I was kinda high last night when I made this thread first off just to clear things up. Second what I meant was to me parker has been the most unstoppable pg for a long time. Too bad the only times I can remember him getting shut down are against the grizzlies and okc :(

[EJFischer]

Shown by who?

Sports economists, researchers at the Sloan Sports Analytics conference. Dave Berri in particular, I know, has published on the topic.


And how do you measure performance?

Linear regression from box score statistics, calibrated for position, home court advantage, and diminishing returns in rebounds. There are plenty of books on the topic. Check out Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper or Dave Berri's Wages of Wins and Stumbling on Wins.

[callo1]

Tony has been excellent the last few years, and is clearly at the top at getting to the rim and finishing for a pg. Early on, TP's lack of consistent jumper hurt his overall game. Over the last two years Tony has found the sweet spot between scoring and dishing, which has moved his game up several notches...the top...no, but for the Spurs system it works amazingly well.

At the beginning of Parker's career, it was easy to brush off his numbers due to Timmy's play, but as Tony has had to carry more of the scoring and playmaking workload over the last few years, it has made the league take notice of TP's overall game.

[hooperflash]

@tonyparker I want to play until I'm 38 @Tissot Thekidskoob #tissottimeout

[therealtruth]

I wonder what type of TP we will see in the playoffs. The one from the skills challenge or the MVP version.

[mathbzh]

Sports economists, researchers at the Sloan Sports Analytics conference. Dave Berri in particular, I know, has published on the topic.



Linear regression from box score statistics, calibrated for position, home court advantage, and diminishing returns in rebounds. There are plenty of books on the topic. Check out Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper or Dave Berri's Wages of Wins and Stumbling on Wins.

I'll try to have look. But I would be really surprised if this could be transposed directly to superteams.
I have more than enough exemple to convince me that when several superstar are playing together their individual numbers will suffer (5 Kevin Durant together for 48 minutes would not score 180 points).

[Obstructed_View]

I'd say one of them is Kobe's, actually.

Not really. Kobe was 4th in MVP voting in 2006, and for good reason: He was a chucker on a shitty team. When Jordan put up 27 shots per game on a bad team, he managed to lead the league in win shares, scored 2 more points per game than Kobe and still didn't win MVP.

[Obstructed_View]

(5 Kevin Durant together for 48 minutes would not score 180 points).

At least three would demand to be traded.

[callo1]

At least three would demand to be traded.
:)

And the other one would be traded by OKC management to save salary in effort to keep Perkins

[romain.star]

5 Kevin Durant together for 48 minutes would not score 180 points.

Uh.. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I know one other Kevin Durant. He is very nice but he is a 49 years old account manager in London / UK.

[Man In Black]

I will say that he's the best PG on the most consistently winning team in Basketball. It matters not that his individual stats are lower for certain stats because truthfully, all he is doing is running the team the way his coach asks him to, night in, and night out. The only thing that really matters for TP is W's.

[sananspursfan21]

How quickly we forget Derrick Rose.

this

[Clipper Nation]

Which was the most dominant by a point guard in the last decade.

I'd argue that CP3's 2007-08 season was the most dominant by a point guard in at least the last decade, tbh....

http://www.hoopsworld.com/by-the-numbers-cp3-deserved-mvp/


Chris Paul finished the 2007-2008 NBA season averaging 21.1 points, 11.6 assists, 4 rebounds, 2.7 steals, and 1.2 made three-pointers per game. He shot 48.8% from the field and 85% from the free-throw line.


Now, let’s put those numbers in perspective:


* In the 61-year history of the league, there have only been seven players to finish a season with averages of at least 20 points and 10 assists. The other members of this prestigious 20/10 club are Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Nate "Tiny" Archibald, and, surprisingly, Michael Adams (26.5 and 10.5 in ’90-’91).


* No player has accomplished this impressive 20/10 feat in over 15 years. Timmy Hardaway was the last to do so back in 1992-1993.


* CP3 also led the league in steals. As if the points, assists, rebounds, solid FG% and FT% weren’t enough, Paul helped control the game on the defensive end as well.
Since the NBA began tracking steals as an official statistic back in 1972, no player in history has ever averaged 20 and 10 while also leading the league in thefts. The last player to lead the NBA in steals and assists was John Stockton back ’91-’92.


* The only true point guard to win the MVP since Magic Johnson in his prime was Steve Nash, who took home the honors in both the ’04-’05 and ’05-’06 seasons. Compared with Nash’s best seasons, including his back-to-back MVP campaigns, Paul averaged more points, equal to or greater assists, more rebounds, far more steals, and fewer turnovers. Basically, CP3′s stats are like Steve Nash’s numbers on steroids. In addition, Paul doesn’t have nearly as talented a supporting cast as Nash, nor does he play in the same fantasy-friendly offense.


* Speaking of Nash, CP3 played some of his best basketball against some of the best point guards in the league. Here is a stat to help illustrate this point: In four head-to-head meetings with the Suns this season, Paul (44) had one more assist than Nash (43) while outscoring him by an average of more than 10 points per game (29.0 to 18.8).


* Paul recorded 30 games this season with 20 or more points and 10 or more assists. That’s the most 20/10 games in a season since Tim Hardaway did it 34 times for the 1991-92 Warriors.


* In a win over the Warriors back on April 5th, Chris Paul racked up 16 points, 10 rebounds, 13 assists and five steals. Per the Elias Sports Bureau: "It was the third game of Paul’s brief NBA career in which he reached those levels in all four categories. The only other active player to have such a game is Jason Kidd, and he’s done it only once (Nets vs. Magic, Feb. 23, 2003). Paul’s three games meeting those minimums (16 PTS, 10 REB, 13 AST, 5 STL) match the most for any NBA player since the league began keeping track of steals in 1973-74. Magic Johnson and Micheal Ray Richardson are the only other players with three such games."

* Paul became the first player in over 25 years to lead the league in assists while still averaging fewer than 3 turnovers per game. (The last player to accomplish that feat was Johnny Moore back in 1981-1982.)


* Following up on the previous entry, Johnny Moore averaged 9.65 assists. No player, other than Paul, has averaged double-digit assists and just 2.5 turnovers or less.


* CP3 played in six games this season in which he dished out at least 15 assists with no more than one turnover. That equals the total of such individual performances by the rest of the league combined. Paul’s six games of that type are the most in a season for any NBA player since the league began officially recording turnovers in 1977.

[Obstructed_View]

Fair enough. If we're going for single season domination by a point guard, which I mistakenly thought was the topic, either answer is fine. Tony Parker's season isn't in the discussion.

That said, he's probably the best point guard in the league this year, and Chris Paul is healthy.

Also, Tony Parker ended Chris Paul's season that year.