Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship with a PG as their top......

[Laredoart]

Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship without a dominant Big an a PG as their top scorer?

I love my Spurs and I only wish another ring for our core players, but we really need to answer this question. Tim still playing at a high level, but his not dominant like he was, and is understandable, we all know that his the best big we got. We cannot win another ring with a PG as our best scorer. We still have a chance to win it all, but thats the same as the lotto chances. We need to trade for a dominant big, we are not going to get him in the draft, and we aint getting him by free agency, so the only option is the trade. Once again, I love the my Spurs, but they need to trade who ever we need to trade to get that one dominant big..........:toast

[spurraider21]

Q: When was the last time an NBA team won with a dominant big as their leading scorer?

[Laredoart]

I believe the Spurs did, with Duncan, and I also believe I ask for a dominant big, like Shaq with the LA and the Heat, or Gasol with LA, or Dirt in Dallas. Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship without a dominant Big an a PG as their top scorer?

[Mal]

LeBron is basicly a PG in forward body

[Laredoart]

But his not a PG, his a SF. Hes a player that needs the ball on his hands to start his ofense and not a type of player to run through screen aka Ray Allen, or Reggie Miller.

[Mal]

What`s the diffence. Isnt PG deciding what play team is going to run? LeBron does it, when it matters. Chalmers isnt on the court in crunch time.

[spurraider21]

I believe the Spurs did, with Duncan, and I also believe I ask for a dominant big, like Shaq with the LA and the Heat, or Gasol with LA, or Dirt in Dallas. Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship without a dominant Big an a PG as their top scorer?

D-Wade was the clear leader and leading scorer of the 06 heat. if you want to get technical TP was the leading scorer in the 2011 finals. Dirk is awesome, but "dominant big" is a misleading title for him

[Laredoart]

Then I guess Kobe is a PG, MJ is a PG, on and on and on. So I guess Gary Neal is a PG because hes deciding what play the team is running. The difference is him getting rebounds and not being limited by the size of a PG, or always creating miss matches(no matter who guards him) something a real PG cannot create, and by the way, you are talking about LJ, an individual that posses a body and athleticism never seem before....

[Laredoart]

OK, Wade not a PG, and the Spurs didnt make it to the 2011 Finals, so TP wasnt playing... And Dirk is unstopable when healthy, so that is dominant....

[spurraider21]

Then I guess Kobe is a PG, MJ is a PG, on and on and on. So I guess Gary Neal is a PG because hes deciding what play the team is running. The difference is him getting rebounds and not being limited by the size of a PG, or always creating miss matches(no matter who guards him) something a real PG cannot create, and by the way, you are talking about LJ, an individual that posses a body and athleticism never seem before....

The names of positions were created so fans could more easily follow the game. Is Duncan a Center or Power forward? was oscar robertson a point guard or shooting guard. didn't KG essentially play point guard for a while on the wolves? point guard gets offense into sets and is responsible for directing the play and getting himself and teammates good shots

[Laredoart]

So, is LJ is not a SF, and TD is not the greatest PF, wow. Now, Positions were created to have a player an a distance from the rim, according to their sizes and skills. Now, when it comes to players like Magic Johnson or LJ, players that can actually play any position on the floor, because of their size and skill, and teams usually do that to create miss matches. Can a Center defend a Poing Guard by the 3 point line? No, cause he doesnt have the quickness, can he defend him by the rim, just because he has the size, can the PG guard the paint? and on and on, thats the reason why they created positions. If want fans to more easily follow the games, just create numbers, oh we got that. How about names, we got that too.....

[JingleJangleJingle]

LeBron is basicly a PG in forward body

but he didn't play like a PG...He played more like a Power Forward and it helped mask the Heat's weak frontcourt presence

[Laredoart]

Finally, somebody with knowledge...

[racm]

but he didn't play like a PG...He played more like a Power Forward and it helped mask the Heat's weak frontcourt presence

who still happened to make plays.

I think trying to pigeonhole LeBron James into a traditional position is a fruitless task.

[will_spurs]

Positions were created to have a player an a distance from the rim, according to their sizes and skills.

I seriously doubt that since all the rules in basketball apply to all the positions, which is actually quite unique in the history of team sports in which certain positions are official and get certains rights (without even going to the extreme of football, most of the games have e.g. a goalkeeper).

Positions in b-ball are simply categories and quite artificial at that. The 1-2-3-4-5 scheme is like the 4-4-2 in soccer: it's a common setup, but in no way the only one possible or even authorized. That's what creates all the somewhat silly discussions about center vs PF and so on, or the creation of unlikely labels such as "point-forward" (Lebron says hi).

Coming back to the OP, quality bigs are certainly welcome, but not necessary. Actually Shaq and Duncan were the last dominating bigs to win a title, and that was a while ago.

[spurraider21]

the NAMES of positions were put to make the game easy to follow. its only natural, however, that larger players gravitate towards the rim. doesn't necessarily dictate the way they play. this is why you can have guys like physically similar players have completely different roles/play styles.

for example, when it comes to the lakers, i couldn't care less who was shorter or taller. fisher didn't do anything resembling a point guard besides dribbling the ball to half court, then promptly handing it off the kobe and running to the corner. kobe for all intents and purposes ran the offense and the triangle usually ran through him anyway. so even though kobe is a shooting guard, he pretty much ran the offense (and hence, the point) for the Lakers. it's all mudded up tbh.

just because parker is our leading scorer doesn't mean he's not capable of being a floor general that directs offense, gets us into sets, and sets up teammates for easy shots. maybe in a certain situation he will defer more and take a back seat in the scoring department if need be. i have confidence in Pop and TP to make these decisions. hence, i'm not worried that our point guard is our leading scorer

[Laredoart]

So, Dirk 2011 doesnt count? For what I remember he was dominating, the whole time....

[Laredoart]

First of all, I never nothing negative about TP. The question remains, when was the last time a team won a championship with a true PG as their leading scorer, not a SF or a PF or a C or a SG that can switch to PG, or can call plays??

And thats the question, because thats where our team stands...

[therealtruth]

but he didn't play like a PG...He played more like a Power Forward and it helped mask the Heat's weak frontcourt presence

Exactly. Lebron didn't win till he got in the post and started getting easy baskets. The Mavs won when he stayed on the perimeter. Dirk was dominant in '11 operating out of the high post. He won a couple of games that way. The fact is to win a championship your best player needs a goto move or area he can work from consistently. What's that for TP? What's the move he goes to when he needs a basket. He can't always hope to beat guys of the dribble because the other team will pack the paint and throw length at him.

[Mal]

First of all, I never nothing negative about TP. The question remains, when was the last time a team won a championship with a true PG as their leading scorer, not a SF or a PF or a C or a SG that can switch to PG, or can call plays??

And thats the question, because thats where our team stands...

Billups 2004. Finals MVP: Chauncey Billups (21.0/3.2/5.2). But RIP Hamilton was leading scorer with 21.4

[will_spurs]

So, Dirk 2011 doesnt count? For what I remember he was dominating, the whole time....

I don't think using the greatest jump shooting big in the history of the universe as an example really helps your case here. He did dominate, but not because he was 7ft tall.

Another thing: you might have read about the importance of bold here, but it's not what you think it means. All bold is like all caps, it sucks.

[cd98]

Isaiah Thomas. Magic. Point guards can lead teams to titles, especially in this age with the rules that favor quickness over post play.

[Brazil]

Billups 2004. Finals MVP: Chauncey Billups (21.0/3.2/5.2). But RIP Hamilton was leading scorer with 21.4

the star of that team was the Defense. They won with a sum a complementary players playing at a high level in particular in the D end.

[Mal]

the star of that team was the Defense. They won with a sum a complementary players playing at a high level in particular in the D end.

But question was about true PG leading their team in scoring. One FG diffrence in 5 games between Hamilton and Billups. I think Billups could be the answer to that question.

And yeah, Piston killed 2 option Lakers with their defense

[Laredoart]

BOLD OR CAPS, you are very sensitive my friend. And when you said that Dirt dominated and it wasnt because his 7', then I dont know what to say about you and your logic. And yes the 1-2-3-4-5 scheme is like the 4-4-2 in soccer: it's a common setup, is true, buuuuuuuuut, we were talking about the reason the name position in b-ball, not how the game has gone through some evolution, the fact is that LJ has a different body type than TP, and therefore hes able to play different positions.

[Laredoart]

So, Ben Wallace didnt dominate at defense? Wasnt he a the big factor against Shaq? and Prince on Kobe? Once again. We dont have that force in the paint, and we not going to get it any other way than by the via of the trade....

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

They're not getting this hypothetical dominant big man via trade either cause they have no assets.

[Laredoart]

Now we talking, these 2 players, played in different era, now, every player is quicker and more technical. Now the game requires for somebody to dominate the paint, via rebounding and shot blocking, getting players in foul trouble.

[Laredoart]

Well, we do have assets, they just want him to retire a Spur. Tony Parkers value is never going to be as high as this years, and you can believe that....

[Laredoart]

Bottom line is, if we cant make stops, then we cant win a championship, everything falls back on the defense side and for a team to reach that it has to to start at the paint...

[TJastal]

Exactly. Lebron didn't win till he got in the post and started getting easy baskets. The Mavs won when he stayed on the perimeter. Dirk was dominant in '11 operating out of the high post. He won a couple of games that way. The fact is to win a championship your best player needs a goto move or area he can work from consistently. What's that for TP? What's the move he goes to when he needs a basket. He can't always hope to beat guys of the dribble because the other team will pack the paint and throw length at him.

When teams throw their best elite perimeter defender with length at parker there should be other weaker defenders to exploit at sf or sg... this is where green and leonard have to get more agressive offensively to compensate, and therein lies a problem.. these guys are still young &inexperienced.

[Mal]

You should have use quote

[Laredoart]

You should have use quote

Im still learning brotha, thanks...

[Mal]

So, Ben Wallace didnt dominate at defense? Wasnt he a the big factor against Shaq? and Prince on Kobe? Once again. We dont have that force in the paint, and we not going to get it any other way than by the via of the trade....

This was for me ? Should I response to that ?

[Laredoart]

This was for me ? Should I response to that ?
Yes Sir, if want, you can respond to anything....

[Mel_13]

Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship without a dominant Big an a PG as their top scorer?

I love my Spurs and I only wish another ring for our core players, but we really need to answer this question. Tim still playing at a high level, but his not dominant like he was, and is understandable, we all know that his the best big we got. We cannot win another ring with a PG as our best scorer. We still have a chance to win it all, but thats the same as the lotto chances. We need to trade for a dominant big, we are not going to get him in the draft, and we aint getting him by free agency, so the only option is the trade. Once again, I love the my Spurs, but they need to trade who ever we need to trade to get that one dominant big..........:toast

So, we're doomed.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to keep watching, anyway.

[Mel_13]

When teams throw their best elite perimeter defender with length at parker there should be other weaker defenders to exploit at sf or sg... this is where green and leonard have to get more agressive offensively to compensate, and therein lies a problem.. these guys are still young &inexperienced.

:tu

Exactly. No defense can take everything away from a good offense. If a team overloads their defense to stop Tony, other players must step up. It's still a 5 on 5 game (referees notwithstanding).

[Brazil]

But question was about true PG leading their team in scoring. One FG diffrence in 5 games between Hamilton and Billups. I think Billups could be the answer to that question.

And yeah, Piston killed 2 option Lakers with their defense

I don't disagree with that.

[boutons_deux]

"Piston killed 2 option Lakers with their defense"

'04 Lakers didn't have Malone who basically bitch slapped Tim off the low post out to the 3 pt line.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Lets not even try to say it was the 07 Spurs! We all know it was Duncan's team and the Offense still went through Tim. What a joke.

[Aztecfan03]

Tony Parker. 2007. If you are talking about leading scorer of the finals. He was a little behind Duncan during season.

[Aztecfan03]

Lets not even try to say it was the 07 Spurs! We all know it was Duncan's team and the Offense still went through Tim. What a joke.

He asked about PG being leading scorer. Parker was in the finals.

[Laredoart]

He asked about PG being leading scorer. Parker was in the finals.
Yes, TP did lead us in scoring at the 2007 finals, but Tim Duncan got us there. The Spurs only took aventage of the Cavs weakness. Without TD we couldnt make it to the finals.

[Laredoart]

Some of you guys keep forgetting that the biggest reason we got the 4 championships is because of a big that could dominate the game, and his name is Tim Duncan, aka Timmy....

[Laredoart]

So, we're doomed.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to keep watching, anyway.

You are welcome. I be watching too.

By the way. Whats your opinion on this thread???

[Mel_13]

You are welcome. I be watching too.

By the way. Whats your opinion on this thread???

I though that was clear, but perhaps not. Let's go back to the OP.


Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship without a dominant Big an a PG as their top scorer?

I love my Spurs and I only wish another ring for our core players, but we really need to answer this question. Tim still playing at a high level, but his not dominant like he was, and is understandable, we all know that his the best big we got. We cannot win another ring with a PG as our best scorer. We still have a chance to win it all, but thats the same as the lotto chances. We need to trade for a dominant big, we are not going to get him in the draft, and we aint getting him by free agency, so the only option is the trade. Once again, I love the my Spurs, but they need to trade who ever we need to trade to get that one dominant big..........:toast

Now, before we go any further, would you please list those players who meet your definition of a dominant big? This must be a very a short list as it will only contain players that can make the Spurs into legit contenders in your eyes, while trading away the considerable assets necessary to convince another team to give up such a player. Once you've identified these players, we can go on.

[Interrohater]

I will say this: The teams that have a "dominant big" are not so hot right now. The game has changed. Yes, defense is a huge part of where the Spurs need to focus in order to realize a fifth ring, but I don't think that a "dominant big" is necessarily the only solution. If we had a Bruce Bowen-type player, this changes your defense. He would harrass, he will funnel, he will be infectious. The "dominant big" and this fellow will compliment each other well. Tim Duncan is still dominant enough on the defensive end to get it done if our perimeter players will channel a Bruce Bowen for the playoffs. Even at almost three blocks a game for Timmy, while sensational and great for oohs and aahs, his defense is not infectious. The defense of Bruce was underrated even by Spurs fans. When a guy can trap another guy single-handedly, other players see it and want to emulate. This is what's needed. Not a "dominant big".

[mathbzh]

Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship without a dominant Big an a PG as their top scorer?

I love my Spurs and I only wish another ring for our core players, but we really need to answer this question. Tim still playing at a high level, but his not dominant like he was, and is understandable, we all know that his the best big we got. We cannot win another ring with a PG as our best scorer. We still have a chance to win it all, but thats the same as the lotto chances. We need to trade for a dominant big, we are not going to get him in the draft, and we aint getting him by free agency, so the only option is the trade. Once again, I love the my Spurs, but they need to trade who ever we need to trade to get that one dominant big..........:toast

The problem with your logic is that Duncan is still arguably the most dominant big. There is no dominant big. At least not one you would mention in the same sentence as prime Shaq/Duncan... Not even a prime Dirk!
It looks like the only option is to trade for Lebron... Good luck with that.

[Man In Black]

Tim Duncan is still dominant enough on the defensive end to get it done if our perimeter players will channel a Bruce Bowen for the playoffs. Even at almost three blocks a game for Timmy, while sensational and great for oohs and aahs, his defense is not infectious. The defense of Bruce was underrated even by Spurs fans. When a guy can trap another guy single-handedly, other players see it and want to emulate. This is what's needed. Not a "dominant big".
Kawhi is almost there. He's on the court longer, his perimeter defense is stout plus the length to his game gives the Spurs an added dimension that Bruce didn't provide, STEALS, lots of them.

But thinking about the original question, Point Guards without dominant bigs that have led their teams in scoring while winning a title:
1973 Knicks PG Walt Frazier led the team in scoring at 21 pppg, and for bigs they had DeBusscherre, Jerry Lucas, and Willis Reed as their Bigs. They were dominant by committee but DeBusscherre had the best stats at 16 and 10.
1975 Celtics PG Jojo White and F-C Dave Cowens scored 19 per. White averaged 5.4 Assists while Cowens got 16 rebounds per.
1979 Sonics PG Gus Williams and F-C Jack Sikma. Williams scored 19 and 4 assists per and Sikma scored 15 and averaged 12 rebounds per but still they required guys like Lonnie Shelton and Paul Silas to help with the dirty work.
1989 Pistons PG Isaiah Thomas and C Bill Laimbeer Thomas scored 18 and 8 assists per and Laimbeer scored 13 and 10 rebounds per. Let's add Rodman and Salley.
1990 Pistons PG Isaiah Thomas and C Bill Laimbeer Thomas scored 18 and 9 assists per and Laimbeer scored 12 and 10 rebounds per. Let's add Rodman and Salley.

We can debate the 2004 Pistons but the question is limiting. It still takes a TEAM.

The Spurs are capable in this years NBA. They are top 5 in both offense and defense ratings. They have a tougher perimeter with Splitter and Duncan, they have strong wing play and strong point play with Parker and Ginobili. They are well-coached and as long as they can get execute on the offense out to the 3point line and the NBA doesn't let the ref go star crazy for FT's... then I feel the Spurs have all that Pop needs. His Swiss Army Knife has all the tools and he's ready to start cutting up the NBA. Hack, Slash Pop...Wolverine style.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Some of you guys keep forgetting that the biggest reason we got the 4 championships is because of a big that could dominate the game, and his name is Tim Duncan, aka Timmy....

Exactly

[Juggity]

Q: When was the last time an NBA team won with a dominant big as their leading scorer?

Pau wasn't the leading scorer, but he was pretty clearly the spiritual leader of the 2009 and 2010 Lakers championship team, given Kobe's attempt to chuck away the finals, particularly in 2010.

Dirk was the leading scorer for the 2011 Mavs, and has a dominant flamingo jumpshot precisely because of his height.

So, tbh, last year was an anomaly in terms of a championship team lacking the dominant big.

[FromWayDowntown]

So wait -- is thread just a subtle Trade Parker thread?

[benstanfield]

TP is a dynamic, transcendent offensive threat capable of facilitating for teammates or going into God Mode in critical moments. This as well as a stout defense have been shown to be the critical ingredients of championship teams. I think position is really irrelevant, and the fact that PG's have not served in this role commonly is merely a correlation, not a causal argument for saying that it can't be done.

[Big Empty]

hmmm, u have the Pistons with Thomas but they did have quality bigs in Rodman and Lambeer. Then you go to Magic, but he is 6'10 and won with Abdul Jabbar. I see where you're going with this. I kinda agree

[hater]

:lmao we are not beating the Heat. wake the fuck up

[Laredoart]

I though that was clear, but perhaps not. Let's go back to the OP.



Now, before we go any further, would you please list those players who meet your definition of a dominant big? This must be a very a short list as it will only contain players that can make the Spurs into legit contenders in your eyes, while trading away the considerable assets necessary to convince another team to give up such a player. Once you've identified these players, we can go on.
Well, somebody like LaMarcus Albridge from the Blazers, Al Horford from the Hawks, I would love to have Brook Lopez, but I believe thats out of our league. Or we can try to get a young big whos dominating at the age of 22, from Orlando Nikola Vucevic. Another young guy catching my eye is from the Raptors, 20 years old, Jonas Valanciunas. This bigs are very tradeable, for the exeption of Mr. Lopez. But I can only imaging Nikola from Orlando, under Pops system and learning from the great Tim Duncan.

[Mel_13]

Well, somebody like LaMarcus Albridge from the Blazers, Al Horford from the Hawks, I would love to have Brook Lopez, but I believe thats out of our league. Or we can try to get a young big whos dominating at the age of 22, from Orlando Nikola Vucevic. Another young guy catching my eye is from the Raptors, 20 years old, Jonas Valanciunas. This bigs are very tradeable, for the exeption of Mr. Lopez. But I can only imaging Nikola from Orlando, under Pops system and learning from the great Tim Duncan.

Reread your first post. You said that 2013 Duncan is not a dominant big, yet you provide that list of names as examples of players who are. Sorry, but that's absurd.

[cd98]

hmmm, u have the Pistons with Thomas but they did have quality bigs in Rodman and Lambeer. Then you go to Magic, but he is 6'10 and won with Abdul Jabbar. I see where you're going with this. I kinda agree

To do a fair comparison to the Spurs, you would have to agree that Duncan, even at his age, is better than Lambeer. Rodman was averaging about 9 points and 9 rebounds. While those are solid numbers, I don't know that they were earth-shatteringly better than Tiago's and Leonard's. I think the Pistons are a very fair comparison.

Magic was 6'10, but he played point guard. And the last couple titles he won, Kareem was sucking on oxygen tanks while on the bench. No question the best player on that team was Magic, and at that point, Kareem was not the same player.

[Laredoart]

The problem with your logic is that Duncan is still arguably the most dominant big. There is no dominant big. At least not one you would mention in the same sentence as prime Shaq/Duncan... Not even a prime Dirk!
It looks like the only option is to trade for Lebron... Good luck with that.
Dominant big, that doesnt mean they have to be in ESPN everyday for you to see them as dominant, theres aspects of the game that are very important, like rebounding and controlling the area around the rim. And no, we dont need LJ to win it all, we need a consistent force, a dominanting force in the paint. When Miami won last year they had Bosh dominating the rebounds, controlling the paint area. And we can go the year before and the year before and so on and on...

[Laredoart]

Reread your first post. You said that 2013 Duncan is not a dominant big, yet you provide that list of names as examples of players who are. Sorry, but that's absurd.

I did say that Tim wasnt dominant.....like he used to be, thats what I said. Tim cant bang in the paint no more, and that limits him from controlling the paint like he used to. I provide a list of players that are reachable, all this guys are reachable, with the exeption of Lopez. So, you are going to tell me, that if we had Albridge, or Horford, or even Nikola, it wouldnt make us better?

[Mark in Austin]

Well, somebody like LaMarcus Albridge... Al Horford ... Brook Lopez...Nikola Vucevic...Jonas Valanciunas. This bigs are very tradeable

1. Tim Duncan has had a better season this year than everybody on that list. And it's not even close. So as far as a dominant big goes, the Spurs already have the most dominant big.

2. To trade for any of those inferior assets it would still most likely require giving up Parker, or a combo of Leonard and Splitter + more salary to match in some cases. Without Parker the Spurs go nowhere. And Leonard & Splitter are too high of a price to pay for one big who may or may not work out in the Spurs system.

3. The combination of Duncan+ Splitter + Leonard has been deadly this year. It would be hard to imagine another lineup with any of the players you listed + Duncan being any better.

4. Aldridge, Horford and Lopez are not available. There was a bullshit rumor about Aldridge earleir in the season but he, Lillard and Batum are what Portland are building around. The only way Ferry trades Horford is if he can get Dwight Howard for him. Otherwise he's untouchable. Lopez will only be traded for Howard. Otherwise Brooklyn is keeping him. The basic premise of your original post is wrong because most of these players are not realistic trade targets for the Spurs.

[hater]

LaMarcus Albridge... Al Horford ... Brook Lopez...Nikola Vucevic...Jonas Valanciunas. This bigs are very tradeable

:lmao

these scrubs are close to max players in todays shitty nba

[Mel_13]

I did say that Tim wasnt dominant.....like he used to be, thats what I said. Tim cant bang in the paint no more, and that limits him from controlling the paint like he used to. I provide a list of players that are reachable, all this guys are reachable, with the exeption of Lopez. So, you are going to tell me, that if we had Albridge, or Horford, or even Nikola, it wouldnt make us better?

Now you're changing the subject, and it was your subject.

The premise of your OP has collapsed.

Let's move along.

[Brazil]

Some of you guys keep forgetting that the biggest reason we got the 4 championships is because of a big that could dominate the game, and his name is Tim Duncan, aka Timmy....

No shit??

[Laredoart]

1. Tim Duncan has had a better season this year than everybody on that list. And it's not even close. So as far as a dominant big goes, the Spurs already have the most dominant big.

2. To trade for any of those inferior assets it would still most likely require giving up Parker, or a combo of Leonard and Splitter + more salary to match in some cases. Without Parker the Spurs go nowhere. And Leonard & Splitter are too high of a price to pay for one big who may or may not work out in the Spurs system.

3. The combination of Duncan+ Splitter + Leonard has been deadly this year. It would be hard to imagine another lineup with any of the players you listed + Duncan being any better.

Man, you are funny!!!!!!!
Duncan is having a better season than all these guys???? WOW!!!
By having a better season do you mean, in his days off?? while the rest of the team plays??
Or do you mean his having a better season than Lopez?? LOL
Or having being more affictive in the paint than Albridge or Holford?? WOW

And yes, the combination of Duncan+ Splitter + Leonard has been deadly this year. But thats in the regular season, and under Pops coaching, which is the best in the game.

It took Pop some time to figure Tiago out, but he got it, and his making it work. Tiago would not have the numbers his getting under Pop, if he was under a different system.
I can only imaging Albridge, Holford, or Nikola under Pop....

We are not getting no rings, without a dominant big, somebody that can get rebounds, and control the paint. Tim is still great, but he cant bang in the paint no more, and we need that...

[therealtruth]

Pau wasn't the leading scorer, but he was pretty clearly the spiritual leader of the 2009 and 2010 Lakers championship team, given Kobe's attempt to chuck away the finals, particularly in 2010.

Dirk was the leading scorer for the 2011 Mavs, and has a dominant flamingo jumpshot precisely because of his height.

So, tbh, last year was an anomaly in terms of a championship team lacking the dominant big.

So you didn't see Lebron operating out of the post in the Finals? I think dominant big can be replaced by good low post scoring and low post defense. You need to be able to get easy baskets while preventing the other team from doing the same thing.

[Laredoart]

Now you're changing the subject, and it was your subject.

The premise of your OP has collapsed.

Let's move along.

Nobody is changing the subject, and you still having answer the first question of this thread. I give you a list of players, that you ask for, so you can answer the question, and you didnt.

[Juggity]

So you didn't see Lebron operating out of the post in the Finals? I think dominant big can be replaced by good low post scoring and low post defense. You need to be able to get easy baskets while preventing the other team from doing the same thing.

That's my point exactly. A quality big or a player of similar low post scoring ability is necessary to win a championship, simply.

LeBron was an anomaly in that he can do everything a dominant big can do, even though he is comparatively undersized.

[ezau]

Isiah Thomas, 89-90 Pistons

[Mel_13]

Nobody is changing the subject, and you still having answer the first question of this thread. I give you a list of players, that you ask for, so you can answer the question, and you didnt.

You gave a list of players that didn't meet the standard you set yourself. You said that the Spurs needed to trade for a dominant big in order to have a chance for another ring. You said that Duncan no longer was such a player. Then you gave a list of non-dominant bigs. So trading for any for them would leave them in the same the predicament you said that they're in right now.

[mathbzh]

Dominant big, that doesnt mean they have to be in ESPN everyday for you to see them as dominant, theres aspects of the game that are very important, like rebounding and controlling the area around the rim. And no, we dont need LJ to win it all, we need a consistent force, a dominanting force in the paint. When Miami won last year they had Bosh dominating the rebounds, controlling the paint area. And we can go the year before and the year before and so on and on...
Do you see the light?
The big!
Do you see the light?
The big!
Do you see the light?
What light?
Have you seen the light?
Yes! Yes! Tim Big Fundamentals Duncan...I have seen the light!

[Laredoart]

You gave a list of players that didn't meet the standard you set yourself. You said that the Spurs needed to trade for a dominant big in order to have a chance for another ring. You said that Duncan no longer was such a player. Then you gave a list of non-dominant bigs. So trading for any for them would leave them in the same the predicament you said that they're in right now.
So, then I will agree to disagree, you out look of a dominant big is very high. The list of player that you might have are problably out of reach for anybody to trade for. This list of players are not in that in that level as now, only because they dont play for somebody that can show case their strenghts (aka POP). I believe that Coach Pop can take most players to give their best, and to include their strenghts in the system, therefore taking them to another level of your dominant scale.

[Poolboy5623]

Not sure if it's been covered in the 3 pages of babble, but didn't the spurs win it in 07 w/tp as the mvp of the finals? Why can't they do it again? What am I missing here?

& how do they trade, when the deadline is over??

[Laredoart]

Not sure if it's been covered in the 3 pages of babble, but didn't the spurs win it in 07 w/tp as the mvp of the finals? Why can't they do it again? What am I missing here?

& how do they trade, when the deadline is over??

Youre right about 07, but Tim was the one that got the team to the Finals, not only that, but the east was so weak that one year, that anybody that won the west was winning the whole thing, now, back then TP didnt have a jump shot, he did it with his quickness.
To answer your question; What am I missing here?? Well, Tim is not the same, our defense is not the same and opponent is problably going to be the Heat, which is a way better team than the 07 Cavs, I believe thats what your missing.
And yes, the trade line is over, we can all always hope for next year.

[Man In Black]

So, then I will agree to disagree, you out look of a dominant big is very high. The list of player that you might have are problably out of reach for anybody to trade for. This list of players are not in that in that level as now, only because they dont play for somebody that can show case their strenghts (aka POP). I believe that Coach Pop can take most players to give their best, and to include their strenghts in the system, therefore taking them to another level of your dominant scale.

Jackie Butler, Francisco Elson, and to a lesser extent, Rasho Nesterovic say Hi and we tried to play for Pop but weren't able to use our strengths so we inevitably got traded.
Horford is undersized. Aldridge is injury prone. Vucevic and Valenciunas are too raw. Lopez would too much. None of the players listed will give the team a better chance to win NOW.

[Man In Black]

Also...Spurs are the ONLY team Top 5 in offense and defense. No watered down East slop to raise their numbers like Miami. Why fear them when motion and size are their kryptonite? They don't have a dominant big any better than Tim and while LeBron is awesome, we can throw a mix of Leonard and Jackson at him. WHO can they send at TP? Chalmers & Cole ain't fast enough. Wade? Then who covers Ginobili?

Again...it's not about which team has the best 5 players...its about the team that has 5 players who play together best. Spurs have more cohesion than any other team in the L, barring injury.

[Laredoart]

Jackie Butler, Francisco Elson, and to a lesser extent, Rasho Nesterovic say Hi and we tried to play for Pop but weren't able to use our strengths so we inevitably got traded.
Horford is undersized. Aldridge is injury prone. Vucevic and Valenciunas are too raw. Lopez would too much. None of the players listed will give the team a better chance to win NOW.

Rasho and Nelson, had the best career moments in Spurs uniform. You are right about Vucevic and Valenciunas, but none of this players are going to give us a better to win right now, because we cant trade for them right now, but if we did in the off season, then they have time to develope in our system, to tell you the truth, I would like us to get a young big, with potential, another kid thats going to be with us for at least 8 years.
You said that Horford was undersized, the guy is 6'10" and 250 pounds, so, how is that undersized??
Horford had a monster game Monday against the Pistons as he scored 23 points to go along with 22 rebounds, three assists, two steals, two blocks and one three-pointer.
Spin: Horford played just under 40 minutes Monday and had what was likely his best game of the season. Horford has been on a scoring tear of late as he is averaging 24.0 points over his last six games.
Thats for all of you who say that his not dominant.
Albridge has played 54 out of 56 games played by the Blazers, I guess missing 2 games makes someone injury prone??

[Laredoart]

Also...Spurs are the ONLY team Top 5 in offense and defense. No watered down East slop to raise their numbers like Miami. Why fear them when motion and size are their kryptonite? They don't have a dominant big any better than Tim and while LeBron is awesome, we can throw a mix of Leonard and Jackson at him. WHO can they send at TP? Chalmers & Cole ain't fast enough. Wade? Then who covers Ginobili?

Again...it's not about which team has the best 5 players...its about the team that has 5 players who play together best. Spurs have more cohesion than any other team in the L, barring injury.
Yes, we're the only team to be top 5 on D or Offense, but thats the regular season, we do take advantage of regular teams and under .500 teams, thats how you make a good season, by making sure that you win the games that you suppossed to win. All they got to do is not to let TP beat them and thats all, they can put Wade, even LJ can guard TP, we dont have a problem of scoring points, thats very obvious, we have a problem of not rebounding and controlling the paint. Do you really believe we can win it all this year by being the 25th overall rebounding team in the league?, and thats a stat in the regular season when we get to played teams that aint making the playoffs.

[Man In Black]

Rasho and Nelson, had the best career moments in Spurs uniform. You are right about Vucevic and Valenciunas, but none of this players are going to give us a better to win right now, because we cant trade for them right now, but if we did in the off season, then they have time to develope in our system, to tell you the truth, I would like us to get a young big, with potential, another kid thats going to be with us for at least 8 years.
You said that Horford was undersized, the guy is 6'10" and 250 pounds, so, how is that undersized??
Horford had a monster game Monday against the Pistons as he scored 23 points to go along with 22 rebounds, three assists, two steals, two blocks and one three-pointer.
Spin: Horford played just under 40 minutes Monday and had what was likely his best game of the season. Horford has been on a scoring tear of late as he is averaging 24.0 points over his last six games.
Thats for all of you who say that his not dominant.
Albridge has played 54 out of 56 games played by the Blazers, I guess missing 2 games makes someone injury prone??

You want to go there?

Horford measured without shoes.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Al-Horford-415/

He is not a true 6'10" the same way DeJuan Blair isn't a true 6'7".

Convenient you talk about Aldridge this season only.
Lets see, he's been in the league since 2007.
He's never played all 82 games in a season at all.
In 11-12 he only played 55 out of 82.
In the lockout shortened season last year, Aldridge only played 54 out of 66 games.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1373915-players-who-will-bounce-back-from-injury-in-2012-13/page/2

Position: Power Forward

Age: 27

Experience: 6 Seasons

Recovering From: Right Hip Surgery



One of the quietly severe injuries from the 2011-12 NBA season came when the Portland Trail Blazers lost LaMarcus Aldridge in mid-April. After playing 55 games and making his first career All-Star game, Aldridge's surgically repaired right hip began to bother him.

There was a slight labral tear in the same location that Aldridge had surgery on while attending the University of Texas.

So where does the word durable show up for Aldridge?

They are both fine players but let's not call Al a true 6'10" and/or call LaMarcus durable, because that would be disingenuous.

[playbonner15]

Dont worry guys. This playoffs, The Red Mamba will hit the shots when it matters most

[Man In Black]

Yes, we're the only team to be top 5 on D or Offense, but thats the regular season, we do take advantage of regular teams and under .500 teams, thats how you make a good season, by making sure that you win the games that you suppossed to win. All they got to do is not to let TP beat them and thats all, they can put Wade, even LJ can guard TP, we dont have a problem of scoring points, thats very obvious, we have a problem of not rebounding and controlling the paint. Do you really believe we can win it all this year by being the 25th overall rebounding team in the league?, and thats a stat in the regular season when we get to played teams that aint making the playoffs.

Listen very carefully...Spurs do not offense rebound as much as other teams because they take good shots plus they balance the floor to make sure that they take away Miami's transition offense. If a Spur shoots a shot, unless it's a critical possession with score and clock as factors, then the Spurs send only 1 big for the rebound position, the rest of the team defends backcourt to prevent any fastbreak opps. In essence, being 30th in O Rebounds and 1st in D Rebounds is by design. It's been that way now since Pop became coach all those years ago. If the Spurs have a problem controlling the paint, why is it that they are currently 3rd in Effective FG% allowed?

Just to prove a point, MIA is 29th in O rebounds and 25th in D Rebounds and are 13th in Effective FG% allowed. So, other than the fact that the 4Letter keeps telling everyone that MIA is unstoppable, why is it that the metrics show that the Spurs are the better team?

[Laredoart]

So where does the word durable show up for Aldridge?

They are both fine players but let's not call Al a true 6'10" and/or call LaMarcus durable, because that would be disingenuous.

So, then I guess we cant call Holford a 250 pounder, because he does weight that without clothes, LOL. And when it comes to Albridge let me see, 06*07 he only played 66 games = rookie year, 07*08 =76 games, 08*09 = 81 games, 09*10 = 78 games, 10*11 = 81 games, 11*12 = 55 games out of 66 games(lockout season), this year he has only miss 2 games, now, how that heck is that not durable? where do find injury prone in that??

I think you got this mixed up my friend. Calling Holford a non big, and calling Albridge a non durable player, would be very disingenuous. And you did say 11*12 season had 82 games??? LOL, WOW, I dont even know why Im still replying to you...

[Laredoart]

If the Spurs have a problem controlling the paint, why is it that they are currently 3rd in Effective FG% allowed?

My friend effective FG% allowed, doesnt mean controlling the paint....

[Man In Black]

If the Spurs have a problem controlling the paint, why is it that they are currently 3rd in Effective FG% allowed?

My friend effective FG% allowed, doesnt mean controlling the paint....
We ain't friends and if it sucks as a stat, then why is Miami's LOWER?
We ain't talking weight. We're saying Horford ain't a true 6'10...Do you agree or not?
11-12 is a typo :) but you should have already known that...but hey, I can fix that TYPO. Doesn't change the argument though. The Spurs ain't as weak as you make them out to be. Miami ain't as strong as the 4Letter wants. Open your eyes.

[racm]

If the Spurs have a problem controlling the paint, why is it that they are currently 3rd in Effective FG% allowed?

My friend effective FG% allowed, doesnt mean controlling the paint....

Spurs are tied with Miami in opponent points in the paint fwiw.

[Laredoart]

We ain't friends and if it sucks as a stat, then why is Miami's LOWER?
We ain't talking weight. We're saying Horford ain't a true 6'10...Do you agree or not?
11-12 is a typo :) but you should have already known that...but hey, I can fix that TYPO. Doesn't change the argument though. The Spurs ain't as weak as you make them out to be. Miami ain't as strong as the 4Letter wants. Open your eyes.
Im sorry stranger, jejeje, pinches jotos sentimentales, jejeje. I was talking weight as an example, I guess my dear stranger, you dont understand examples. And we not saying Holford aint a true 6-10, you was the one that said that, now prove that his not 6-10. Listen, it wasnt a TYPO, and tell me how I was to know that?? you said that Albridge wasnt durable, and the numbers say otherwise. And nobody said the Spurs are weak, all I said is that we dont have nobody dominating the paint like Tim used to, the only thing we really got working is our chemistry and humble players who all play under the system. The best big man we got is Tim and he cant bang in the paint like he used to, so who else can control the paint? Do you really believe that Tiago can do as good as he does with us anywhere else? Please, open your eyes stranger, we aint getting no ring this year, and we aint getting crap to we get a dominant big...keep hoping that our leading PG can takes to the promise land....jejeje

[Manu-20]

Im sorry stranger, jejeje, pinches jotos sentimentales, jejeje. I was talking weight as an example, I guess my dear stranger, you dont understand examples. And we not saying Holford aint a true 6-10, you was the one that said that, now prove that his not 6-10. Listen, it wasnt a TYPO, and tell me how I was to know that?? you said that Albridge wasnt durable, and the numbers say otherwise. And nobody said the Spurs are weak, all I said is that we dont have nobody dominating the paint like Tim used to, the only thing we really got working is our chemistry and humble players who all play under the system. The best big man we got is Tim and he cant bang in the paint like he used to, so who else can control the paint? Do you really believe that Tiago can do as good as he does with us anywhere else? Please, open your eyes stranger, we aint getting no ring this year, and we aint getting crap to we get a dominant big...keep hoping that our leading PG can takes to the promise land....jejeje

I seem to recall Tiago getting whatever he wanted agaisnt Miami last they played it's no secret Miami's weakness is a team that shares the ball and has someone who can score via pick n rolls and posting up ala Tim and Tiago and while he may not be as dominat as he use to Miami really dosen't have anyone who could guard Tim espically if he is still going strong like he has as all season long with our shooters surronding him if the spurs make it to the finals they will have homecourt advantge most likely which will be huge in a series with Miami and downplaying our D this year is a joke your just beng blind if you can't see how much better they are this year compared to last year overall that alone will give them a chance with any team in the playoffs this year. With all that said I would really like to see how Miami would do in a series with the Spurs they don't match up as well with them as they do with OKC who dosen't have a single guy they could throw the ball in the post and score.

[Laredoart]

I seem to recall Tiago getting whatever he wanted agaisnt Miami last they played it's no secret Miami's weakness is a team that shares the ball and has someone who can score via pick n rolls and posting up ala Tim and Tiago and while he may not be as dominat as he use to Miami really dosen't have anyone who could guard Tim espically if he is still going strong like he has as all season long with our shooters surronding him if the spurs make it to the finals they will have homecourt advantge most likely which will be huge in a series with Miami and downplaying our D this year is a joke your just beng blind if you can't see how much better they are this year compared to last year overall that alone will give them a chance with any team in the playoffs this year. With all that said I would really like to see how Miami would do in a series with the Spurs they don't match up as well with them as they do with OKC who dosen't have a single guy they could throw the ball in the post and score.
You made some good points. However, I never said anything about our D being worst than last year, I think our D has gotten alot better, and that has to do mainly because our young players are getting better and more confident.

[ambchang]

To answer the question. 04 pistons. Before that the 89 pistons.

That said, the question is pointless. Before last year, when was the last time a SF without a dominant big won it all? Before 11, when was the last time a shooting big led the team to a championship?

Before 91, when was the last time a SG without a dominant big les the team to the finals? (Btw tht hasn't happened since Jordan retired either).

[ambchang]

Btw2. In the context of this year, Duncan is a dominant big. Maybe not dominant in the historical sense, but because the field is so weak, he is dominant compared to his peers.

[Brazil]

Laredoart with the trolling goods tbh

[pgardn]

Q: When was the last time an NBA team won a championship without a dominant Big an a PG as their top scorer?

I love my Spurs and I only wish another ring for our core players, but we really need to answer this question. Tim still playing at a high level, but his not dominant like he was, and is understandable, we all know that his the best big we got. We cannot win another ring with a PG as our best scorer. We still have a chance to win it all, but thats the same as the lotto chances. We need to trade for a dominant big, we are not going to get him in the draft, and we aint getting him by free agency, so the only option is the trade. Once again, I love the my Spurs, but they need to trade who ever we need to trade to get that one dominant big..........:toast


Last year.

Miami.

What position does Lebron really play, ask yourself. Wade and Chalmers are 2's when it matters.

[Poolboy5623]

Youre right about 07, but Tim was the one that got the team to the Finals, not only that, but the east was so weak that one year, that anybody that won the west was winning the whole thing, now, back then TP didnt have a jump shot, he did it with his quickness.
To answer your question; What am I missing here?? Well, Tim is not the same, our defense is not the same and opponent is problably going to be the Heat, which is a way better team than the 07 Cavs, I believe thats what your missing.
And yes, the trade line is over, we can all always hope for next year.

I get all of that but this spurs team has just a good of a chance as any..as in any year, health and some luck will go a long way in determining this...and it's too difficult for me to look ahead to "next season" with this team. How many next season's do these spurs have?

[Man In Black]

That's the point...This year's Spurs has all the tools it needs to compete with MIA and OKC. The only thing they haven't ticked off on the checkbox list is 100% Healthy. Despite that, they have made significant gains defensively and had the least amount of player turnover so their cohesion and chemistry is better than other teams. Put it this way, if this year's Spurs played in New York, Boston, LA, or Chicago and if they shit-talked just a little more for the 4-letter network's appeal agenda, then they would simply be the favorites.

It's cool though, the Spurs have just a good a chance as any other team and it's Finals or best. This team should be playing for this year and this year alone. They can worry about the future later.