creationism spreading in schools, thanks to vouchers (?)

[Blake]

”I first began investigating creationist school vouchers as my part of my fight against creationism in my home state of Louisiana. Over the past few months, I’ve learned creationist vouchers aren’t just a Louisiana problem—they’re an American problem. School vouchers are, as James Gill recently wrote in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, “the answer to a creationist’s prayer.”

Liberty Christian School, in Anderson, Indiana, has field trips to the Creation Museum and students learn from the creationist A Beka curriculum. Kingsway Christian School, in Avon, Indiana, also has Creation Museum field trips. Mansfield Christian School, in Ohio, teaches science through the creationist Answers in Genesis website, run by the founder of the Creation Museum. The school’s Philosophy of Science page says, “the literal view of creation is foundational to a Biblical World View.” All three of these schools, and more than 300 schools like them, are receiving taxpayer money.

So far, I have documented 310 schools, in nine states and the District of Columbia that are teaching creationism, and receiving tens of millions of dollars in public money through school voucher programs.............”

....

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/01/16/creationism-spreading-in-schools-thanks-to-vouchers/

[Blake]

”......... This year, we may see even more creationist school vouchers. Both Tennessee and Texas are considering passing voucher programs. Indiana and Georgia may expand their programs.

Advocates for vouchers argue that private schools and more competition would offer a better education for American students. Schools that teach creationism and do not meet basic science standards will fail our students and do not deserve taxpayer funding.

We must to speak out to prevent funding these creationist schools with our public money. We must speak out and end these existing creationist voucher programs. As Americans, we must do the right thing and teach our students evidence-based science.

Zack Kopplin is a 19-year-old student at Rice University, and one of the leading American voices against the teaching of creationism in schools. He was featured as an MHP Foot Soldier last March, and profiled at length this week by io9.”

[boutons_deux]

stupid, ignorant Christian fucktards

The Dumbing Of America

How the religious right is undermining education

there is no better way to affect the future than by propagandizing the young. In this current post election season, the Biblically driven, often racist, members of society are once again regrouping to fight another day.
With the money of wealth funders like Richard and Betsy DeVos (sister of Blackwater scion Eric Prince and daughter of Elsa and Edgar Prince of the Amway fortune) and the Walton, Koch and Scaife Foundations, simpatico politicians are hard at work bringing Dominionist [3] ideals quietly into the forefront of American education policy. While much of the country argues about budgets, deficits, and guns, a cleverly camouflaged package of School Choice and ”Bible-driven curricula“ make their way up the ladder.


On the surface, School Choice is purportedly about increasing opportunities for inner city and rural youth. The all-important subtext, however, is that School Choice is really about freeing up dollars for Christian-based education. An important arrow that energizes today’s religious quiver is the intentional misuse of language in changing the debate by referring to public schools as “government schools” and public education as a “government school monopoly,” thus instantly and directly speaking to Tea Partiers and Libertarians.


To still relatively scant notice, the call for “School Choice” or Vouchers continues to play out in state capitols across the nation in an effort to increase Biblically based education through a redirection of tax dollars from public to private religious schools. In order to accomplish the end goal of Christianizing all students, stealth remains largely the rule of the day. In 2002, Dick DeVos told The Heritage Foundation [4],


http://www.salon.com/2013/02/25/how_the_religious_right_is_undermining_education/

[DarrinS]

I'm not a religious person -- let me make that clear.

But, isn't it a fact, that our society has become more secular, and at the same time, dumber than generations that preceded it?

[Spurminator]

What society? American society? If we are, in fact, getting dumber, I don't think you'll find the segment of the population dragging the average down is any more secular than it was 50 years ago.

Furthermore, do you believe the societies in the nations that are quickly passing America up in education are getting more religious?

(And I AM a religious person.)

[Latarian Milton]

religion might be an obstacle against the development of science but it doesn't mean we have to give up our traditional moral standards imho. bitches and evils have all escaped from the kitchens in recent years w/ religion gone, and you're fucking stupid if you see that as a positive change tbh

[Wild Cobra]

Isn't this part of why we have a voucher system? So parents can send their children to schools that don't teach the things they don't like? What's wrong with a parent wanting a voucher to use in a school that teaches creationism rather than evolution?

Blake...

Do you think the feds should be forcing programs on kids that the parents don't want?

[redzero]

If schools are teaching outright false stuff, the government should definitely get involved, private or public.

[Wild Cobra]

If schools are teaching outright false stuff, the government should definitely get involved, private or public.
So...

It is your opinion that the government is obligated to violate the first amendment?

[redzero]

So...

It is your opinion that the government is obligated to violate the first amendment?

No, I believe that schools shouldn't lie to their students.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Parents are not contributing all of the money that goes into those vouchers. As such they do not get to proselytize on the state's dime.

[Latarian Milton]

If schools are teaching outright false stuff, the government should definitely get involved, private or public.
the government is the culprit behind the whole shit imho. it's the government who wants to indoctricate the kids with stupid stuffs and keep their IQs low so that they're easier to be governed when they're grown. education doesn't make one smarter, but makes him dumber tbh

[symple19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kppx4bzfAaE

[Wild Cobra]

No, I believe that schools shouldn't lie to their students.
And you wish the force of the government to impost your point of view.

[redzero]

And you wish the force of the government to impost your point of view.

Facts are facts. I want schools to stick to facts. Private schools can teach their fairy tales in theology courses.

What do you have against standards? Do you think private schools should be able to teach anything?

[ElNono]

But, isn't it a fact, that our society has become more secular, and at the same time, dumber than generations that preceded it?

In what respect? In the science realm (which is what the OP is somewhat about), overall, I think we're light years ahead of preceding generations, IMO.

[ElNono]

And you wish the force of the government to impost your point of view.

What point of view would that be? Telling kids there are certain areas of science we don't know the answers to yet would be: A) true B) infinitely better than selling them 'god of the gaps'

[Wild Cobra]

Facts are facts. I want schools to stick to facts. Private schools can teach their fairy tales in theology courses.

What do you have against standards? Do you think private schools should be able to teach anything?
How can you know with certainty that some divine hand wasn't creating our world?

Were you there?

[Wild Cobra]

What point of view would that be? Telling kids there are certain areas of science we don't know the answers to yet would be: A) true B) infinitely better than selling them 'god of the gaps'
I see you don't believe in the 1st amendment either.

[redzero]

^ I see that you don't want actual facts to be taught in schools.

How can you know with certainty that some divine hand wasn't creating our world?

Were you there?

I don't know for certain, which is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is the Genesis creation story is bullshit and should not be taught anywhere outside of a theology class.

I'm sorry that you don't care about standards as much as I do. A school that starts throwing away accepted science in favor of religion should be stopped. Period. The kids aren't getting a proper education.

[FromWayDowntown]

Schools teaching scientific principles that don't depend on religious beliefs = no establishment of religion and no burden on free exercise (since the choice to NOT teach creationism does not preclude citizens from teaching that religious belief in their homes)

Schools trying to teach creationism = endorsement of religion and burdens the free exercise rights of those who don't share that religious viewpoint.

I know for my own sake that I don't want public school teachers having to deal with weighty philosophical issues of religious nuance, just as I don't want a math teacher or an english teacher or a social studies teacher trying to inculcate religious values in my kids. That part of raising my kids is my job, not a public school's. Teachers in public schools have a hard enough time teaching the subjects that they're qualified to teach; asking them to become seminarians as well seems patently ridiculous to me.

[ElNono]

I see you don't believe in the 1st amendment either.

The 1st amendment isn't a matter of faith, it's a matter of law. It's not an absolute right, and specifically 'school speech' is an area that has seen large amounts of litigation over the years.

What's highly hypocritical is your support for charlatan education while at the same time riling up on the product of such education, people wholly uneducated and unprepared for the real world that find it difficult to get a job.

[ElNono]

How can you know with certainty that some divine hand wasn't creating our world?

Were you there?

The correct answer to that is "We don't know what created our world yet, we'll get there when we get there. In the meantime, there's all this other well-established science to work on".

[Wild Cobra]

The 1st amendment isn't a matter of faith, it's a matter of law. It's not an absolute right, and specifically 'school speech' is an area that has seen large amounts of litigation over the years.

What's highly hypocritical is your support for charlatan education while at the same time riling up on the product of such education, people wholly uneducated and unprepared for the real world that find it difficult to get a job.
So why do you want to tell private schools, which parents take their kids to by choice, what can and cannot be taught.

And you say you aren't an authoritarian.

[redzero]

So why do you want to tell private schools, which parents take their kids to by choice, what can and cannot be taught.

And you say you aren't an authoritarian.

Again, private schools should be able to teach anything?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

O look, another thread Food Stamps Cobra is posting in while he avoids the Texas education spending thread like Chris Christie avoids the treadmill

[ElNono]

So why do you want to tell private schools, which parents take their kids to by choice, what can and cannot be taught.

And you say you aren't an authoritarian.

You need to make a case of why private schools (especially those receiving government funding) don't have to adhere to the same education standards as public schools... you haven't done that yet.

[Wild Cobra]

You need to make a case of why private schools (especially those receiving government funding) don't have to adhere to the same education standards as public schools... you haven't done that yet.
No I don't. Why should one group get something another doesn't?

Because you don't like them practicing their 1st amendment?

[admiralsnackbar]

No I don't. Why should one group get something another doesn't?


Exactly. If public funds are used by a private school, why should it have the right to teach beyond the legal limits a public school works under?

[Woo Bum-kon]

:lol Is Wild Cobra seriously arguing that private schools don't have to adhere to education standards? He thinks that making teachers teach science instead of religion in a Science classroom is a violation of the 1st Amendment?

[Wild Cobra]

:lol Is Wild Cobra seriously arguing that private schools don't have to adhere to education standards? He thinks that making teachers teach science instead of religion in a Science classroom is a violation of the 1st Amendment?
No. Are you saying education standards can overrule the first amendment?

How about showing me the lesson plan that shows they aren't teaching science as laid out.

[Wild Cobra]

Why are you all butt-hurt over this?

[Woo Bum-kon]

No. Are you saying education standards can overrule the first amendment?

Yes, or there would be no point in the standards in the first place.


How about showing me the lesson plan that shows they aren't teaching science as laid out.

The Creationist Museum has shit about dinosaurs and humans living together, which is wrong from historical and evolutionary standpoint.

[Wild Cobra]

Consider the purpose of a voucher. Everyone who owns or pays rent, is paying into the property tax system that schools get their income from. All the voucher system does, is allowing parents to put some of that funding to the school of their choice, instead of losing all of it for not putting their child in a public school. It allows some parents to put their kids in private schools that might not otherwise be able to afford it.

[Woo Bum-kon]

Why are you all butt-hurt over this?

Why are you trying to dumb down American schools.

[Wild Cobra]

Seems ti me this Zack Kopplin is a royal loser. Spending all this time trying to harm other people because of their faith, what life is he preparing himself for? A life of food stamps? Maybe a Jihadist?

[Woo Bum-kon]

Seems ti me this Zack Kopplin is a royal loser. Spending all this time trying to harm other people because of their faith, what life is he preparing himself for? A life of food stamps? Maybe a Jihadist?

:lol Nothing says "properly prepared for life" like teaching children outright false things.

[Drachen]

Selfishly, a voucher system would help me TREMENDOUSLY and it's not even close. With that being said, I don't think I can endorse a voucher system if this is the result.

[Blake]

Schools teaching scientific principles that don't depend on religious beliefs = no establishment of religion and no burden on free exercise (since the choice to NOT teach creationism does not preclude citizens from teaching that religious belief in their homes)

Schools trying to teach creationism = endorsement of religion and burdens the free exercise rights of those who don't share that religious viewpoint.

I know for my own sake that I don't want public school teachers having to deal with weighty philosophical issues of religious nuance, just as I don't want a math teacher or an english teacher or a social studies teacher trying to inculcate religious values in my kids. That part of raising my kids is my job, not a public school's. Teachers in public schools have a hard enough time teaching the subjects that they're qualified to teach; asking them to become seminarians as well seems patently ridiculous to me.


The 1st amendment isn't a matter of faith, it's a matter of law. It's not an absolute right, and specifically 'school speech' is an area that has seen large amounts of litigation over the years.

What's highly hypocritical is your support for charlatan education while at the same time riling up on the product of such education, people wholly uneducated and unprepared for the real world that find it difficult to get a job.

Well stated.

Unfortunately these posts appear to have been ignored by WC.

[boutons_deux]

whatever is taught is public or private schools isn't a 1st Amendment concern.

[Halberto]

These religious nutjobs also have to accept that their taxes are paying for abortions, birth control etc..... If they choose to live in a biblical world let them... It worked out great for the Amish :lol

[Blake]

Consider the purpose of a voucher. Everyone who owns or pays rent, is paying into the property tax system that schools get their income from. All the voucher system does, is allowing parents to put some of that funding to the school of their choice, instead of losing all of it for not putting their child in a public school. It allows some parents to put their kids in private schools that might not otherwise be able to afford it.

if we are going to allow tax dollar based vouchers to be used towards education, there needs to be minimum standards set regarding the curriculum.

If a private school teaches that 2+2= cow, should that school be allowed to accept vouchers? Fuck no.

The op mentions A Beka. Their science books teach that evolution is a crock of shit.




That said, I hate that property taxes are what are used to finance school districts.

[sjacquemotte]

I don't see why they can't teach both theories

[Woo Bum-kon]

I don't see why they can't teach both theories

They can teach their fairy tales in Theology class, and they can teach what actually happened in science and history classes.

[Blake]

I don't see why they can't teach both theories

Of course you don't.

[admiralsnackbar]

I don't see why they can't teach both theories

Constitutional issues aside, time is money.

[boutons_deux]

I don't see why they can't teach both theories

creationism isn't a theory, it's a Biblical fairy tale, like all of Genesis, and it has no supporting data.

evolution also includes devolution and evolutionary dead-ends, with the numerous observations, data that you Bible-thumpers are devolving into mindless cretins.

[mingus]

I went to a private school growing up and none of the people I know that went to that school actually believe in creationism, even though we were taught it. We were also taught about how we should not show a lot of skin (the girls), cheat, not drink underage etc., but the girls were all whores, everybody cheated and everybody drank. I guess there were probably a few who believed in creationism and probably still do to this day. But I wonder how much of that is due to the education they recieved at school.

[sjacquemotte]

You need to make a case of why private schools (especially those receiving government funding) don't have to adhere to the same education standards as public schools... you haven't done that yet.

government funding as in vouchers?

[sjacquemotte]

They can teach their fairy tales in Theology class, and they can teach what actually happened in science and history classes.

So you want to take evolution out of science too? I disagree. I think they should teach them both.

[ElNono]

government funding as in vouchers?

Right. But even then, the question works just as well without the funding.

[ElNono]

So you want to take evolution out of science too? I disagree. I think they should teach them both.

why would evolution need to be taken out of science?

[Blake]

So you want to take evolution out of science too? I disagree. I think they should teach them both.

Oh look. An argument from a 2005 message board.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No. Are you saying education standards can overrule the first amendment?

How about showing me the lesson plan that shows they aren't teaching science as laid out.

I think it's pretty obvious that they do and there is nothing that say they cannot teach what they want on their own dime. No matter how you want to spin it, the voucher is the state's dime.

I think you understand the first amendment poorly. While legal entities are given first amendment rights, they do not get the same rights as people nor do they all get equal protection. Before you invoke Citizen United you need to read the ruling. The majority opinion held that they could not distinguish between private firms and the press. Because of that equal protection applied. Schools do not meet that standard.

This may very well be litigated but as has been pointed out to you, schools are already given requirements that they must adhere to and the state is not required to give any school voucher money if they do not meet those standards.

People do not like it because the state paying for proselytization is what theocracies do. We are a secular state and are better for it.

[sjacquemotte]

why would evolution need to be taken out of science?

Because it's a theory which is not based on factual data. It was an explanation which then seems more like a religion where people are more focused on starting from the point that evolution is true and therefore... Or starting with evolution and then trying to prove it right.

[sjacquemotte]

Oh look. An argument from a 2005 message board.

remember when blake made a comment that was a contribution to a discussion? Me either

[sjacquemotte]

Right. But even then, the question works just as well without the funding.

Should it not be judged like for profit colleges are- by people's check books?

[Woo Bum-kon]

Because it's a theory which is not based on factual data. It was an explanation which then seems more like a religion where people are more focused on starting from the point that evolution is true and therefore... Or starting with evolution and then trying to prove it right.

You know jackshit about evolution. You are just blatantly showing your ignorance when you use the "it's just a theory" cliche that creationtards have been spouting for years.

Evolution is real. It occurs. The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution. There are mountains of evidence for evolution. There isn't a single shred of evidence for creation.

[Woo Bum-kon]

remember when blake made a comment that was a contribution to a discussion? Me either

Oh, kinda like how you did nothing but dodge my points regarding the Bible, like the chickenshit you are?

:lol Retarded Christian who doesn't know about the Trinity.

[ElNono]

Because it's a theory which is not based on factual data. It was an explanation which then seems more like a religion where people are more focused on starting from the point that evolution is true and therefore... Or starting with evolution and then trying to prove it right.

Well, no. You need to read up on the scientific process first. The difference between scientific theory and law. There's no 'faith' involved in either. Theories are, by definition, not entirely factual, but they all offer testable claims (even if tests cannot be conducted at this time). That automatically means none of them rely on mystical bullshit in the sky. Some theories also garner more merit than others as they withstand the tests on their claims. For example, Einstein's theory of general relativity makes claims and backs them up with actual hard math. A lot of it was not testable back then, some of it has become testable now, and some of it will not become testable for a while. However, it's being constantly tested and the more tests it passes, the more robust it becomes. Ultimately, if we're able to verify all the claims, it'll become a scientific law.

Being a theory also implies that if some tests don't pass, the theory or part of it will become invalidated, and a new *testable* theory will have to be formulated.

Coming right off the bat with a non-testable, non-verifiable theory is simply flat out not scientific.

[ElNono]

Should it not be judged like for profit colleges are- by people's check books?

Education is education. You'll learn the exact same Newton's law of motion in Harvard and in UTSA. What people's checkbooks on for profit colleges select is *quality* of education, not *content*.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Because it's a theory which is not based on factual data.

:lmao

[sjacquemotte]

You know jackshit about evolution. You are just blatantly showing your ignorance when you use the "it's just a theory" cliche that creationtards have been spouting for years.

Evolution is real. It occurs. The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution. There are mountains of evidence for evolution. There isn't a single shred of evidence for creation.
I'm not a creationists

[sjacquemotte]

Evolution is real. It occurs. The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution. There are mountains of evidence for evolution. There isn't a single shred of evidence for creation.
:lmao

[sjacquemotte]

“ The important thing is to not stop questioning.”

[ElNono]

Not sure what's so funny. Parts of the theory of evolution have been tested, verified and are actual fact. The portion that normally gets the bulk of criticism is the macroevolution portion, which AFAIK, it's currently not testable.

[sjacquemotte]

Education is education. You'll learn the exact same Newton's law of motion in Harvard and in UTSA. What people's checkbooks on for profit colleges select is *quality* of education, not *content*.
Someone on this forum was looking at private schools. Him and his wife went to the science book his kid would be learning out of. They pushed a creationist view while completely leaving out evolution and adaptation. He then decided against that school. I'm for vouchers as well as parent choice (which they do here in Colorado Springs). It isn't the best answer, but the seems to be better than the other options.

[sjacquemotte]

Not sure what's so funny. Parts of the theory of evolution have been tested, verified and are actual fact. The portion that normally gets the bulk of criticism is the macroevolution portion, which AFAIK, it's currently not testable.

What's funny is how unscientific his comment is. Especially in the context of evolution being scientific.

[ElNono]

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

[ElNono]

Someone on this forum was looking at private schools. Him and his wife went to the science book his kid would be learning out of. They pushed a creationist view while completely leaving out evolution and adaptation. He then decided against that school. I'm for vouchers as well as parent choice (which they do here in Colorado Springs). It isn't the best answer, but the seems to be better than the other options.

I have no problems with vouchers. The system itself, per se, I don't think has anything to do with religion. It has apparently largely been co-opted by religious schools, and I think that's where the picture gets muddier.
As FWD said, home is always a place where you can learn about religion if you want your kids to have that education.


What's funny is how unscientific his comment is. Especially in the context of evolution being scientific.

What's not scientific about evolution? Second time I ask.

[sjacquemotte]

A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins148819.html#toCSJJBGvjPmAPr5.99

[ElNono]

A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

No doubt. However, even Einstein had to settle for what he thought it should be. Thankfully he did, since a lot of what he thought it should be ended up being pretty spot on.

[sjacquemotte]

What's not scientific about evolution? Second time I ask.

A poster stated that science class was for only factual ideas. I thought that was obvious.

I personally believe the study of the theory of evolution is a scientific study.

[Bill_Brasky]

Because it's a theory which is not based on factual data. It was an explanation which then seems more like a religion where people are more focused on starting from the point that evolution is true and therefore... Or starting with evolution and then trying to prove it right.

A theory is actually proven. Dipshit.

[sjacquemotte]

But people stating it as proven fact should do it at their evolution religious meetings and not in science class.

[sjacquemotte]

A theory is actually proven. Dipshit.

:lmao. glad you can go to name calling. So there is absolute evidence for every aspect?? I didn't know that. I guess you stating it is all I need.

[sjacquemotte]

No doubt. However, even Einstein had to settle for what he thought it should be. Thankfully he did, since a lot of what he thought it should be ended up being pretty spot on.

Right. I'm not saying evolution shouldn't be talked about but based on what it is at the time and not factual. I don't like my 1st grader coming home telling me we came from monkeys.

[ElNono]

A poster stated that science class was for only factual ideas.

Missed that.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao. glad you can go to name calling. So there is absolute evidence for every aspect?? I didn't know that. I guess you stating it is all I need.

natural selection is easily demonstrable in quickly reproducing populations like bacteria and insects. they have DNA samples of neanderthal and have linked gene sequences in humans.

Now prove that your creator even exists.

[ElNono]

Right. I'm not saying evolution shouldn't be talked about but based on what it is at the time and not factual. I don't like my 1st grader coming home telling me we came from monkeys.

Parts of it are factual. Parts of it are claims that are testable, but right now cannot be tested. That doesn't mean they're wrong or based on untestable data.

We might come from monkeys. We just don't know right now. There's nothing wrong with that.

If anything, it's the theory that most closely matches what we observe, even if in some instances it's not enough to effectively verify the claim. It's also well within the scientific realm that the theory, in some areas, might be wrong.

Creationism on the other hand, starts off from untestable, unverifiable claims. There's nothing scientific about it.

[Woo Bum-kon]

But people stating it as proven fact should do it at their evolution religious meetings and not in science class.

:lmao You are so stupid it's unbelievable. It's so hilariously pathetic watching retarded believers like you pull the "you rely on faith just like me!" card.

Again, you don't know anything about evolution. You don't know what a scientific theory is. If evolution shouldn't be taught in science classes, then neither should gravity. After all, it's just a theory.

Here's a suggestion, Sean: Listen to what the actual scientists say, not Christian apologists.

[Blake]

remember when blake made a comment that was a contribution to a discussion? Me either

what makes you think I want to discuss anything with an ignorant fool that wants to put God in a science book?

[Wild Cobra]

A theory is actually proven. Dipshit.
No. Theories still have room for error.