Trade Idea: Mohammed For Marshall [Archive]

timvp

07-05-2005, 07:14 PM

I believe that a Nazr Mohammed for Donyell Marshall trade is something the Spurs should consider this summer. Right off the bat, it sounds like the Spurs are getting the short end of the stick, but consider the following:

1) Marshall was the player the Spurs wanted last year at the trading deadline. They tried for weeks to pry him away from Toronto. It was only after that trade fell apart that they went and got Mohammed.

2) Pop is high on Marshall. Last season during a Pop show, they asked him about Marshall. He said that he usually doesn't talk about other team's players, but he continued and said that Marshall is a player the Spurs have liked for a long time and is a very underrated player in the league.

3) The Spurs three best players all operate in the paint. Duncan needs room to post up. Parker needs room to drive. Manu is at his deadliest when he's causing havoc in the paint. While Mohammed was good in the playoffs, he isn't a player that will provide spacing. That is a big reason why when Horry is on the floor, the Spurs played so much better. With the spacing Horry's shooting provides, everything just flowed so much smoother.

4) Marshall can really shoot. He tied the NBA record for three-pointers in a game last year when he hit 12 in a single contest. He shot over 41.6% from deep for the year -- his second consecutive season shooting over 40%. On two pointers, last season he shot 48%.

5) Mohammed is going to cost a lot to re-sign. I don't think Spurs fan understand how much he'll be to lockup. If Erick Dampier's contract is north of $70M, Mohammed's price isn't going to be too far behind when it becomes obvious that Mohammed is the better player.

Now when you compare the two players, it's close to a wash. The only huge difference is age. Mohammed is 28 while Marshall is 32. But Marshall has three or four good years left, where as Mohammed will be tough to re-sign after this season. Everything else is similar.

-- Mohammed is one inch taller, but Marshall has an enormous wingspan.
-- Mohammed is the better offensive rebounder, while Marshall is the better defensive rebounder.
-- They're both decent shot blockers.
-- Marshall is a much better passer and gets more steals, while Mohammed is thicker and plays better post defense.

I think this is a trade the Spurs have to look at. It was proven this season that the Spurs work best with a perimeter shooting bigman next to Duncan. If you start Marshall and Duncan up front and have Horry, Scola and Nesterovic off the bench, that seems like a potent lineup to me. You spread the court and give more room for everyone to operate.

The only things you worry about are Marshall's age and the loss of inside muscle. You can get over the age issue when you realize that the Spurs need to win in the next three or four seasons and can't plan to have Mohammed on the roster anyways if a team throws Dampier money at him. The loss of inside muscle on defense is troublesome, but if you look at the Spurs' competition it's not that huge of a deal. Marshall is a good matchup for Rasheed Wallace. Both are long and neither are overly big. Mohammed proved to be worthless trying to guard Amare Stoudemire, so you aren't losing much there. Marshall is a good matchup for Dirk Nowitzki and all the other active power forwards in the league.

To further my point that the Spurs work better with a perimeter shooting big in the lineup, you can look at Mohammed's +/- for the season. In the regular season, the Spurs were -6.5 points when Nazr was in the game. In the playoffs, the Spurs were even with Nazr in the game. That means that he didn't really make a difference either way considering he played a lot of his times with starters around him, that isn't saying too much. Horry, on the other hand, was a +10.4 in the regular season and a +8.7 in the playoffs. Obviously his ability to spread the defense helped the Spurs. Marshall can do the same thing.

In summary, I believe that a Nazr Mohammed for Donyell Marshall trade would help the Spurs on the court in the coming years and also help them in the checkbook. Since Marshall is a free-agent, you can have him sign to a reasonable contract and make the deal. Since the Raptors need a center, they may be inclined to throw in a player or a pick to spice it up. That's just more icing on the cake. The Spurs get the player they wanted orginally last season and save Holt some money in the long run.

Win win.

P.S.

Now if the Raptors will accept a sign-and-trade involving Rasho, you do that of course. But I'm guessing that the Raptors aren't run well enough to figure out that Rasho is a good talent buried on a deep team. That's why you have to throw Nazr at them.

P.P.S.

Please do not turn this thread into a thread detailing how Duncan doesn't want to play center. If you want to speak on that subject, check out this thread (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20693).

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:19 PM

Nazr seems so much bigger, I would hate to give away so much size for another Robert Horry type. Also Tim playing D on opposing centers would wear him down, regardless of whether he wants to do it or not.

Seems risky, but maybe that's because I admittedly don't know enough about Donyell's game.

ALVAREZ6

07-05-2005, 07:19 PM

Only if they are keeping Rasho, otherwise, it doesn't suit the Spurs.

Gino2882

07-05-2005, 07:20 PM

Very good points. I completely agree with the spacing issue. The Spurs need a Center who can step back and hit a 15 foot jumper.

ducks

07-05-2005, 07:22 PM

not a bad idea

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:23 PM

Very good points. I completely agree with the spacing issue. The Spurs need a Center who can step back and hit a 15 foot jumper.I disagree, I think a center who can get garbage points is better on offense. Nazr would be perfect if he could finish a little better. ON defense almost anyone is better than Nazr at this point, but that could be because he doesn't know the system yet.

ALVAREZ6

07-05-2005, 07:25 PM

If Nazr improves his catching ability, and doesn't hesitate so much, adds a couple of deep post moves to his game, I'd rather have him by far.

ducks

07-05-2005, 07:26 PM

thinking about this more
if horry resigns I am not sure I do this
if horry leaves I do this
spurs have a guy like scola coming in

does not scola do alot of what marshall does except for the three

Gino2882

07-05-2005, 07:26 PM

Ya but players just dont improve their hands. Either you can catch the rock or not.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 07:26 PM

you dont trade rasho or nazr for him... that wouldnt make sense... unless you lose horry. (otherwise a good idea)

ALVAREZ6

07-05-2005, 07:28 PM

Ya but players just dont improve their hands. Either you can catch the rock or not.
I don't even think it's his hands, I think it's Nazr's offensive awareness.

He isn't used to Manu and Tony's crazy passes in mid air I guess, and he doesn't have the most offensive awareness, except for after the shot has been put up. He's good at getting hustle rebounds on offense.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:29 PM

Ya but players just dont improve their hands. Either you can catch the rock or not.
I don't think there's a problem with his hands, I think he only had trouble catching the ball in pressure situations. All the other times his hands seemed just fine. With experience and time in the system he'll be able to handle pressure better.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 07:32 PM

I don't think there's a problem with his hands, I think he only had trouble catching the ball in pressure situations. All the other times his hands seemed just fine. With experience and time in the system he'll be able to handle pressure better.
and also... we didnt see rasho handle james or fortson in the seattle series. but nazr scared them a little. what i mean is, he's as close as we have to a rough inside presence.

TwoHandJam

07-05-2005, 07:33 PM

You make a very convincing argument, especially about the spacing issue. I agree with a lot of what you've said but what would we do when teams get physical with Tim down low? The spacing only really works well when Tim is being doubled, leaving someone open and clearing the passing lanes.

Most teams double because if they don't, Tim is usually automatic one-on-one. However the teams which give Tim single coverage, like Detroit, will still pose problems. If Duncan hadn't come out of his funk late in game 7, we could be asking ourselves some very serious questions about the team's future. If Duncan is not threatening down low against a less talented but physical player, Marshall doesn't help much.

Granted, Nazr doesn't really help the above scenario much either but he was very useful against the really thuggish teams like Denver and Seattle. I don't know if we get by those teams easily with Marshall. I like the idea but we'd still need a big body as an enforcer that could give us spot minutes. Luckily, those aren't too hard to find.

timvp

07-05-2005, 07:40 PM

Granted, it's not the easiest trade to stomach. You trade your starting center off of your championship team for a slightly smaller and older player, but I think the rewards are there. If you consider everything and how this will give Rasho opportunities off the bench in situations and it will give Scola more time to shine, I think you do it. Watching the Spurs operate with good spacing offensively is a thing to behold. No matter what Nazr does, he's not going to be a player to create that spacing.

Bottomline is the Spurs' three best players are inside players. You can't afford for either of your two remaining role players to be inside players as well without having causing problems.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:41 PM

and also... we didnt see rasho handle james or fortson in the seattle series. but nazr scared them a little. what i mean is, he's as close as we have to a rough inside presence.
I agree, if anything the spurs need to add another brawler like Mr. Mean Larry Smith.

timvp

07-05-2005, 07:43 PM

and also... we didnt see rasho handle james or fortson in the seattle series. but nazr scared them a little. what i mean is, he's as close as we have to a rough inside presence.

That's a good point. Nazr is the more physical player when compared to Donyell. But you don't lose much defensively and Marshall is actually a better defensive rebounder. You just lose some bulk and some toughness.

In the above plan, Rasho will provide the bulk and Scola the toughness.

King

07-05-2005, 07:44 PM

Is this only if you don't re-sign Horry? I like the idea, but if Horry's around, it seems redundant.

Edit...just re-read and saw that Horry would be coming off the bench. So, I'll go with the maybe a bit redundant, angle. I like it, though.

usckk

07-05-2005, 07:44 PM

I can guarantee this trade won't happen.

timvp

07-05-2005, 07:45 PM

Is this only if you don't re-sign Horry? I like the idea, but if Horry's around, it seems redundant.

In addition.

Kori Ellis

07-05-2005, 07:45 PM

I can guarantee this trade won't happen.

It's a DISCUSSION forum. 99% of what people say here won't happen.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:46 PM

That's a good point. Nazr is the more physical player when compared to Donyell. But you don't lose much defensively and Marshall is actually a better defensive rebounder. You just lose some bulk and some toughness.

In the above plan, Rasho will provide the bulk and Scola the toughness.
Too risky don't you think? Upside is probably there but we need bigs to protect Duncan. However, if Scola is Manu at 6'10 and then I like a lot if Donyell is a better defensive rebounder like you say. Tough to give up the boards Nazr brings to the table though, not to mention the toughness.

Kori Ellis

07-05-2005, 07:47 PM

Didn't the Spurs try to trade Malik for Donyell Marshall during the season and the Raptors wanted Rasho instead, but the Spurs balked?

I wonder if both parties are still interested.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 07:47 PM

I'd hate to see the Spurs give up some muscle up front, considering that Horry, Nesterovic and Marshall are all rather slight for bigs. timvp does hit the nail on the head about the NBA becoming more and more a game of finesse, speed and agility at virtually every spot now. Nazr was rather ineffective against a frontcourt that seemed suited to his game in the Finals.

I agree that Nazr is going to command money in the Dampier range. That's not going to be attractive to the Spurs, not at all. While I would select Nazr over Rasho, I have a feeling the cost differential would make him unattractive long term.

How much would Marshall cost? He has a solid 2 to 3 more years in this league, I feel.

Kori Ellis

07-05-2005, 07:47 PM

if Scola is Manu at 6'10

Scola is 6'8.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:50 PM

timvp

07-05-2005, 07:50 PM

How much would Marshall cost? He has a solid 2 to 3 more years in this league, I feel.

Nazr's deal is around $5M. Getting Marshall for 3 years and $18M might work for both sides.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 07:51 PM

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:52 PM

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 07:52 PM

See last post.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:54 PM

The Spurs faced one of the two other toughest frontcourts in the NBA in the Finals (Heat being the 3rd) and Nazr was next to worthless, whereas a finesse guy like Horry was quite useful.

Something to think about.

Against Seattle Nazr was very useful and also against Denver. Both of those teams have very big front courts.

Maybe Nazr's trouble had more to do with the pressure of the finals rather than any lack of game.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 07:55 PM

Seattle and Denver's frontlines are nothing compared to Detroit's. I would expect Nazr to feast on those. But his showing against Detroit was rather disappointing.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 07:57 PM

That's a good point. Nazr is the more physical player when compared to Donyell. But you don't lose much defensively and Marshall is actually a better defensive rebounder. You just lose some bulk and some toughness.

In the above plan, Rasho will provide the bulk and Scola the toughness.
yeah but you have to pick dont you? (unless you lose horry) otherwise we'd have too many guys at one spot even if you moved marshall to a backup center. and if something happens to rasho, we'd be going small very fast.

with marshall
rasho/duncan/marshall
duncan/horry/scola/marshall

with nazr
nazr/duncan/rasho
duncan/horry/scola

without horry:
rasho/duncan/marshall
duncan/scola/marshall

timvp

07-05-2005, 07:58 PM

Didn't the Spurs try to trade Malik for Donyell Marshall during the season and the Raptors wanted Rasho instead, but the Spurs balked?

I wonder if both parties are still interested.

I just don't think the Raptors are that smart. This is a team that picked Charlie Villanueva with the 7th overall pick this season and Rafeal Araujo 8th overall last season. Pete Babcock's brother doesn't know what he's doing.

That's why I think if you offer them Nazr, they might give you back Marshall and a solid young player and a pick.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:58 PM

Seattle and Denver's frontlines are nothing compared to Detroit's. I would expect Nazr to feast on those. But his showing against Detroit was rather disappointing.
I agree about his performance against Detroit, it was below what he had done before. But Seattle's front like is freakin huge and dirty as all can be. Detroit's front line is very athletic and maybe Nazr is a tad too slow, especially since he doesn't fully understand pop's system.

Mark in Austin

07-05-2005, 07:59 PM

Just some initial thoughts: A convincing arguement...without a doubt the best combo of addressing needs and working in the real world of any of the big man scenarios people have brought up so far. (Trade Rasho for Tmac, etc.) But there are a lot of questions this brings up for me. I think the Spurs will wait untill close to the trade deadline to make a decision on Nazr vs Rasho vis a vis who they hang on to.

It's too early to know if Nazr will improve defensively and offensively, or what the real cost will be to resign him (other than it will cost more than what we're paying Rasho).

The spacing issue is the biggest reason to do this deal to me, but it's not as serious a need if Horry re-ups. It would still be a long-term concern though.

I think it comes down to offensive rebounds vs. spacing. I don't think the +/- arguement works for me. The +/- numbers when Horry is in are high primarily because he is fucking clutch and is a smart player, not because of the spacing he provides. Plus, spacing doesn't help if you can't knock down shots. It's easier to hit meaningless shots in toronto midseason than it is playing for a contending team in crunchtime.

I also wonder how badly the Spurs would miss the offensive rebounds Mohammed provided. timvp, I think you said in another thread that you watched every playoff game at least three times. My question to you is, without Mohammed's offensive rebounding and garbage buckets, would the Spurs have won? Offensive rebounding was a weakness that the Rose trade addressed.

Then there's the whole Marshall in Utah experiment. Wasn't he supposed to help Malone the same way he would help Duncan? That didn't seem to go anywhere...and I think I remember that Malone was calling him soft.

intriguing proposal, though...

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 07:59 PM

I just don't think the Raptors are that smart. This is a team that picked Charlie Villanueva with the 7th overall pick this season and Rafeal Araujo 8th overall last season. Pete Babcock's brother doesn't know what he's doing.

That's why I think if you offer them Nazr, they might give you back Marshall and a solid young player and a pick.
that tells me they are picking up players that others perceive as mediocre. Rasho fits that bill perfectly.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:04 PM

I think this is a good argument for getting an extension done. If the Spurs come with a strong offer to Nazr now they might be able to lock him in at a decent rate.

timvp

07-05-2005, 08:06 PM

I also wonder how badly the Spurs would miss the offensive rebounds Mohammed provided. timvp, I think you said in another thread that you watched every playoff game at least three times. My question to you is, without Mohammed's offensive rebounding and garbage buckets, would the Spurs have won? Offensive rebounding was a weakness that the Rose trade addressed.

I think the Spurs liked Mohammed's size more than his offensive rebounding. In the Spurs' defensive philosophy, offensive rebounds aren't something the coaching staff looks at. They want players to get back on defense and not get burned by transition buckets. I think if you asked the Spurs' coaching staff, they'd tell you that Mohammed's offensive rebounding is a bonus.

Then there's the whole Marshall in Utah experiment. Wasn't he supposed to help Malone the same way he would help Duncan?

He played well in that role. He shot over 50% both years in Utah. Of course by then, the Utah empire had begun to crumble.

:smokin

Solid D

07-05-2005, 08:06 PM

timvp, that was a very well thought-out proposal. I couldn't have laid it out better. I would do that deal. I also believe that Marshall would be a good replacement player for Robert Horry, the player I immediately thought of when pondering that possibility recently.

I'd do it, depending on the size of Marshall's contract of course.

timvp

07-05-2005, 08:06 PM

I think this is a good argument for getting an extension done. If the Spurs come with a strong offer to Nazr now they might be able to lock him in at a decent rate.

Good point. If the Spurs aren't going to use him as trade bait, locking him up now is the way to go.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 08:07 PM

The Spurs faced one of the two other toughest frontcourts in the NBA in the Finals (Heat being the 3rd) and Nazr was next to worthless, whereas a finesse guy like Horry was quite useful.

Something to think about.

7.6pts 9.0rebs 1.40blks in (27 mins) DEN
8.3pts 6.3rebs .67blks in (20 mins) SEA
4.9pts 6.0rebs .86blks in (22 mins) DET

ben wallace averaged 40mins 10.1pts 7.3rebs 3.0blks

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:07 PM

...and if you can extend him for something less than Dampier money then you have two tradeable commodities at center.

Mark in Austin

07-05-2005, 08:08 PM

I just don't think the Raptors are that smart. This is a team that picked Charlie Villanueva with the 7th overall pick this season and Rafeal Araujo 8th overall last season. Pete Babcock's brother doesn't know what he's doing.

True. I wonder if Toronto got the two guys confused and thought they were hiring Pete? :lol That guy makes Chris Mullin and Isiah Thomas look like Jerry West.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:08 PM

7.6pts 9.0rebs 1.40blks in (27 mins) DEN
8.3pts 6.3rebs .67blks in (20 mins) SEA
4.9pts 6.0rebs .86blks in (22 mins) DET

ben wallace averaged 40mins 10.1pts 7.3rebs 3.0blks

Who got the bulk of the minutes up front other than TD? Pop's made some crazy moves from time to time but if Nazr was working against the Pistons he would've left him in.

Nazr's FG% was 43% in the Finals, almost a full 10% lower than his playoff average.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:09 PM

True. I wonder if Toronto got the two guys confused and thought they were hiring Pete? :lol That guy makes Chris Mullin and Isiah Thomas look like Jerry West.

Actually, JWest isn't looking too hot nowadays. I guess it's harder to get players to want to go to Memphis than LA. Go figure.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 08:10 PM

Who got the bulk of the minutes up front other than TD? Pop's made some crazy moves from time to time but if Nazr was working against the Pistons he would've left him in.
i didnt see rasho out there. you said nazr was next to worthless, i disagree. i think he added alot to this team down the stretch. horry got the mins at power forward because duncan moved to center. (you know that) shorter rotation.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:12 PM

Mark in Austin

07-05-2005, 08:14 PM

I think if you asked the Spurs' coaching staff, they'd tell you that Mohammed's offensive rebounding is a bonus.

Bonus or not, it seems pretty important to have somebody good on the offensive glass to give the offense additional chances, especially when we downshift from motion to four down. If shooters are cold, the additional opportunities and occasional putback an offensive rebounder can provide can be the difference in a game or series.

FromWayDowntown

07-05-2005, 08:15 PM

I think part of the equation here is the intangible of the NBA marketplace. I don't perceive the distance between Nazr and Rasho to be that significant. There are some things that Nazr does well that Rasho doesn't; there are some things that Rasho does well that Nazr doesn't. The Spurs won with Rasho last season and they won with Nazr. But there is, I'm sure, a perception in some corners that Nazr is much, much better than Rasho. That may be a perception held in some NBA front offices.

From a practical standpoint, In the long haul, Rasho's contract may end up being more palatable than whatever extension Nazr demands (unless he decides he's willing to do a Manu and take less-than-market to stay in a good spot). At this point, given contracts and perceptions, Nazr is decidedly the more marketable commodity and could arguably bring more in trade.

I just wonder about the wisdom of trading a young big (even one on the precipice of a huge next contract) for an older wing-type player. I think the idea works in a general sense, and I guess with this particular Big 3 being as young as they are, age in the ranks is not as big a concern as it was in, say, 2000 or 2001. Still, I don't think the Spurs are likely to carry 2 huge contracts for centers for very long, and it may be that even if they can peddle Rasho, they won't re-up with Nazr for any kind of crazy, Dampier-esque sums. I'd rather have one of those two than neither. But, if you're going to lose Nazr at the end of next season, it makes sense to me to get something you desire, a guy who will help your team, and look for another big body to play in the paint (like Scola). Marshall would fit that bill.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 08:16 PM

Nazr's FG% was 43% in the Finals, almost a full 10% lower than his playoff average.

i agree with the butterhands. dude looked like a young malik out there. but i missed the part where they brought him in to score 30pts a game? (and called plays for him) because the guy i thought they brought in was to defend bigs... and rebound. he averaged one less board than wallace in 20 or so less mins.

if you're gonna give me ben wallace's FG average... then also bring up the fact that billups actually got into the paint and fed him with in 3ft of the hoop.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 08:18 PM

It was more than the shorter rotation. Nazr's offensive efficiency went down sharply against the Pistons. Too much pump faking and lack of any semblance of range on his shot. In addition the butterhands didn't help.

His opponent, Ben Wallace, shot 57% for the series.again, didn't detroit make Snaq look like crap last year. Maybe we have to credit detroit and with time in the system I think Nazr will be better.

Also, locking him up does make sense.

you're putting to much weight on one series, especially for someone who joined the team after mid-season.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:19 PM

It's not the scoring average so much as it is converting the opportunities he got into points. He had a lot of chances for easy scores that he missed and against a top defense that was huge.

It's not like he's the focal point of the offense like Shaq was for the Lakers and Heat.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 08:21 PM

constantstate

07-05-2005, 08:23 PM

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:25 PM

Udonis Haslem shot 51% against Detroit in the ECF and 49% for the playoffs.

ALVAREZ6

07-05-2005, 08:26 PM

Udonis Haslem shot 51% against Detroit in the ECF.
I like Haslem, I have no idea why the Heat are letting him go. He's underrated.

TDMGTP

07-05-2005, 08:28 PM

let nazr get a full yr of spurs coaching and then offer trade ideas, obviously rasho has been here for few yrs and producing about the same as a guy that has been here for half of the season and a bit injured and if it wasnt for rasho/tim gettin hurt we would still be in darkness about nazr upside.

give nazr his chance, let alone he didnt do so well in finals but at times during the playoffs he carried us that alone deserves a chance. to be honest since that fake handoff dunk against seattle i knew this guys upside is much greater than DAMP and some of the weakass wanna be supestar center minus shaq.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 08:30 PM

Udonis Haslem shot 51% against Detroit in the ECF and 49% for the playoffs.
uh huh. and what does that have to do with nazr? im just saying he did his job and he didnt exactly have alot of time to learn it. he wasnt worthless.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 08:31 PM

Haslem played up front with a star big man against Detroit and didn't struggle.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 08:32 PM

Haslem played up front with a star big man against Detroit and didn't struggle.
and billups shot 41% in the efc SO that means damon jones is a better defender than parker... ok fine.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-05-2005, 08:37 PM

Nazr was rather ineffective against a frontcourt that seemed suited to his game in the Finals.

This is such a myth. Nazr's numbers were impacted proportionately to what Duncan's were going against the Wallace boys and McDyess.

But, such is the life of a big man not named Rose.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 08:45 PM

i like the trade idea... but doesnt anyone else feel like we could do/get more for either nazr or rasho? i think a trade for marshall would be excellent if we lost horry though. (and if we had to lose rasho or nazr than do it)

Guru of Nothing

07-05-2005, 08:47 PM

Tell me Nazr's market value, and I'll have a better reply.

I like the idea of a 2-headed beast at center in the form of Rasho and Nazr. Sacrificing depth at center might have us whooping it up over 4 titles in 9 years, instead of 4 in 8. I assume Horry remains on the Spurs.

I like the idea of Donyell, but with Horry on aboard, the rotation seems awkward.

The Spurs could get more bang for the buck keeping Nazr (and Rasho), and re-signing Glenn Robinson for Donyell type money.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 08:54 PM

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:06 PM

This is such a myth. Nazr's numbers were impacted proportionately to what Duncan's were going against the Wallace boys and McDyess.

But, such is the life of a big man not named Rose.

Why did Haslem manage to bring it against them? Was that a "myth"?

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 09:08 PM

Why did Haslem manage to bring it against them? Was that a "myth"?
Why didn't Kobe bring it against them last year, is he a myth? apples oranges comparison and has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-05-2005, 09:09 PM

Shaq's numbers were down against Detroit. I guess he sucks too...

Everyone THOUGHT Nazr would have a huge series because they expected Detroit to double Tim. That happened the first 2-3 games of the Detroit series, and Nazr had good nights statistically.

Then Rasheed spoke up and said he wanted Tim one on one, and Ben focused on keeping Nazr off the glass.

There's worse crimes than having your rebounding numbers decrease by a whopping 1.5 per game when Ben Wallace decides to take you out of the equation on the glass.

For someone who rode Malik's jock so hard over his five boards a game, I figure you could at least give Nazr some credit.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:10 PM

The comparison is quite appropriate. Nazr had the benefit of playing alongside a star big against Detroit and he failed to bring it, unlike Haslem or Horry for that matter.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:11 PM

Oh good, AHF showed up with a whole lotta nuttin'.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 09:15 PM

The comparison is quite appropriate. Nazr had the benefit of playing alongside a star big against Detroit and he failed to bring it, unlike Haslem or Horry for that matter.

.419% in 7 games... MVP of the finals.

so you're gonna say that a guy is worthless because he shoots .433 and grabs one less rebound than ben wallace... while only putting up over 4 shots a game?

haslem averaged 36 mins in the series... 8.7pts 8.3rebs .29blks

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:17 PM

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 09:18 PM

The comparison is quite appropriate. Nazr had the benefit of playing alongside a star big against Detroit and he failed to bring it, unlike Haslem or Horry for that matter.
guy had one mediocre series, relax. He was fantastic until detroit doesn't that count for anything? Give him one full year in the system. Horry sucked against LA last year and what did it mean, absolutely nothing.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-05-2005, 09:19 PM

The Pistons actually doubled Shaq. Nazr didn't get the same benefit from the Pistons defense after game 2.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:20 PM

You want to give the man seventy million dollars when he can't bring it against a frontcourt custom built for him to show his worth?

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:21 PM

The Pistons weren't that charitable with TD. They collapsed on him just the same.

grjr

07-05-2005, 09:23 PM

........I think it comes down to offensive rebounds vs. spacing. I don't think the +/- arguement works for me. The +/- numbers when Horry is in are high primarily because he is fucking clutch and is a smart player, not because of the spacing he provides. Plus, spacing doesn't help if you can't knock down shots. It's easier to hit meaningless shots in toronto midseason than it is playing for a contending team in crunchtime.

I also wonder how badly the Spurs would miss the offensive rebounds Mohammed provided. timvp, I think you said in another thread that you watched every playoff game at least three times. My question to you is, without Mohammed's offensive rebounding and garbage buckets, would the Spurs have won? Offensive rebounding was a weakness that the Rose trade addressed.

...

When you compare Nazr's offensive rebounds with Rasho's don't forget to add in the 2 or 3 OReb per game that Rasho bats out to the guards and doesn't get a stat for.

I remember more than one game this year where Rasho saved our ass by batting out rebounds in the 4th quarter.

2centsworth

07-05-2005, 09:23 PM

You want to give the man seventy million dollars when he can't bring it against a frontcourt custom built for him to show his worth?
the defending champs that consistently kicked the crap out of snaq is custom built for Nazr?

constantstate

07-05-2005, 09:24 PM

Again, TD was the focal point of the Pistons' interior D just like Shaq was the focal point when the Pistons played the Heat. Quoting TD's FG% means nothing. It's what the guys who are playng alongside the star big were doing that matters. Haslem's efficiency didn't take the hit that Nazr's did. Why? Part of it has to do with the fact that Haslem has something that looks like a jumper. It also has something to do with the fact that Haslem doesn't try 50 million pumpfakes before going to the hole.

he averaged 4 shots a game. no plays are run through him. he did look a little shaky at times with the ball, but i didnt see anyone in a rush to put rasho out there? and lastly, horry was going to get his time at power forward, and duncan was going to get his at center. (because of the rotations)

if it was the guys playing along side the big star that counts... we would have faced miami instead of detroit in the finals (according to you)

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:24 PM

Yes, when your teammate is Tim Duncan.

Spursdaone

07-05-2005, 09:25 PM

Mohammad is way to valuable to give for a person who doesn't play defense in Marshall. I would not do this trade. Mohammad is a big improvement over Nesterovic.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-05-2005, 09:25 PM

Who said anything about 70 million? You're the only one I've seen trumpet that number for Mohammed, quit arguing with yourself.

You know, I was thinking maybe you had a point about Haslem, but then I checked the stats...

haslem: 7 games, 36 minutes, .511 FG, 8.3 RPG, .86 TO/Game, .29 BPG, 8.7 PPG

nazr: 7 games, 22.6 minutes per game, .433 FG, 6 RPG, 4.9 PPG, .86 BPG, .71 TO/Game

So your boy Haslem played 15 minutes more per game, managed just two more rebounds per game (and four more PPG - two offensive putbacks), but was tripled up in the blocked shots department and had a higher TO average.

Yes, Haslem sure took advantage of that Detroit front court :lol

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:25 PM

he averaged 4 shots a game. no plays are run through him. he did look a little shaky at times with the ball, but i didnt see anyone in a rush to put rasho out there? and lastly, horry was going to get his time at power forward, and duncan was going to get his at center. (because of the rotations)

if it was the guys playing along side the big star that counts... we would have faced miami instead of detroit in the finals (according to you)

How many plays were run for Haslem?

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:27 PM

Look at the FG%, AHF. We are discussing efficiency here. With regards to TOs, how many did the Spurs' guards get hit with due to Nazr's stone hands?

constantstate

07-05-2005, 09:27 PM

How many plays were run for Haslem?
about as many more mins worth as he was out there...

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:28 PM

about as many more mins worth as he was out there...

Ha.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-05-2005, 09:30 PM

How many more minutes did Haslem get to play?

What was the disparity in rebounds and blocked shots, the two things the Spurs ask from their center?

STFU, chump.

Uncle Donnie

07-05-2005, 09:31 PM

Would Marshall inherit all the hate Nazr gets from the Malik-lovers? It would only be fair.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-05-2005, 09:32 PM

Wow, 43% to 51%, when the two guys combined for 12 shots a game.

Look out!

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:34 PM

How many more minutes did Haslem get to play?

Haslem played more minutes and shot a higher shooting %. That's not a negative, kiddo.

What was the disparity in rebounds and blocked shots, the two things the Spurs ask from their center?

Nazr gave that up at the other end.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:35 PM

Wow, 43% to 51%, when the two guys combined for 12 shots a game.

Look out!

Nazr's poor play led to him riding the pine. Deal with it.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-05-2005, 09:36 PM

As opposed to Haslem, who got to play out of necessity. Right.

Wow, FG%. Big fucking whoop. Nazr took 4 shots a game, Haslem 8. That's obviously indicative of a big difference in the effectiveness of a player.

Fuck, Tony took way more shots than Manu did, and I'm just waiting for your next parker for Kidd rant.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 09:37 PM

Nazr's poor play led to him riding the pine. Deal with it.

Ha.
you're acting crazy. dont look at shaq's fg% or duncan's against det... just look as haslem's and nazr's. its what the teammates of the big stars do!

nazr did his job pretty good... and i didnt see anyone putting in rasho. yeah he could have looked better out there, but duncan could've too... and if nazr would have played more (like haslem) he would have gotten more chances. look at his numbers for the SEA and DEN series. but he wouldnt have gotten more mins... because we WANTED horry and duncan out there.

shaq only averaged 33mins in the ECF. wanna look up duncan's and horry's mins?

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:38 PM

It is fairly significant considering that he shot 43% with most of his scoring opportunities coming within 3 feet of the basket.

Marcus Bryant

07-05-2005, 09:45 PM

Who said anything about 70 million? You're the only one I've seen trumpet that number for Mohammed, quit arguing with yourself.

Someone didn't read the initial post in this thread.

midgetonadonkey

07-05-2005, 09:46 PM

I would take the better defender anyday. Nazr will be around for a while, count on that.

constantstate

07-05-2005, 09:50 PM

It is fairly significant considering that he shot 43% with most of his scoring opportunities coming within 3 feet of the basket.

with 4 shots a game?

.419% in 7 games... MVP of the finals.
.592% in 7 games... ECF loser.

E20

07-05-2005, 10:21 PM

So far there has been:
A trade Tim thread
A trade Rasho thread
A trade Nazr thread
A trade Tony thread

I'd like to see someone make a trade Manu thread and see who might we possibly get for him. Mcgrady? Or perhaps Peja or Rip or maybe even Artest?

thekingrobert

07-05-2005, 10:31 PM

i say lock nazr up for 3-4 years by then their draft pick from this year will give them more then good minutes his game is very similar to nazr's, also on sign marshall if horry goes

midgetonadonkey

07-05-2005, 10:33 PM

I don't see Horry going anywhere, so Marshall isn't coming to town. Horry knows when to leech on to a champion's tit and he has a nice tit to suck on now.

Mr. Body

07-05-2005, 11:26 PM

It wouldn't be too smart to trade a good, athletic center, who is willing to do whatever the team wants, for a small forward who wouldn't get time behind a productive bench player. Put me in the camp of Mohammed defenders. What do people expect when facing a team with tremendous post defense? Duncan's fg% numbers should serve to show how tough it was down there.

Yes, Nazr pump-faked his shot into oblivion too many times and it was very frustrating to see him bobble so many dump-passes out of bounds, but he will be highly productive next year, and was a great help throughout the playoffs, all without really knowing the team's schematics.

We'll be blessed next year for having two solid centers who are selfless and bring different strengths to bear on the post. Horry makes Marshall superfluous. I'd rather resign Big Dog, all things equal.

Nikos

07-05-2005, 11:30 PM

I like Donyell. He could fit in well as a Spur. Very efficient offensive player who can score in limited minutes. Hits the three and is just a solid scorer in general. Would make an awesome 6th man. But he is getting old, and who knows if he can play like he did the past 3 seasons?

Spursdaone

07-06-2005, 01:16 AM

Mohammad is way to valuable to give for a person who doesn't play defense in Marshall. I would not do this trade. Mohammad is a big improvement over Nesterovic.
You don't give me credit for this idea. You just look at the Garnett idea that nobody will agree with.

timvp

07-06-2005, 01:20 AM

constantstate

07-06-2005, 01:26 AM

if it were me, i still dont do that trade. you can get a quality SF for rasho and his contract. (even for nazr and his ending one) and the fight for mins would even be worse than keeping 2 starting quality centers.

but if horry or duncan have to sit out any length of the regular season, marshall would be a good scoring option to have.

TheTruth

07-06-2005, 02:41 AM

I don't like the fact that we are trading muli year contracts without addressing our SF needs. Do the raps have a SF they can throw in?

TheTruth

07-06-2005, 02:43 AM

Maybe we could get them to throw in Roko Ukic?

baseline bum

07-06-2005, 03:27 AM

I really really hate this trade idea. Until the Detroit series Mohammed was huge for this team. Against Phoenix he was always good for some early buckets. He had some big games for us in this run.

I like my team's big men to play like big men. Post defense and rebounding are vital. It was one of the reasons I was so against moving Rose initially - I didn't think Horry could play like he did in the playoffs, and I don't like bigs on the perimeter when this team needs every possession it can get off the glass. Rob's pretty unique in that his ability to make the most important of plays overshadows his weaknesses by far, but Marshall is no Horry. Plus, why do we need two players who are so similar?

I think this Spurs team would be too soft with Marshall substituted for Mohammed. Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm not penciling in Scola as anything more than an 8th or 9th man yet. I don't want to give up a proven performer and have to rely on someone who hasn't done it yet. Plus, I don't want Scola to have the pressure of needing the be the team's #2 big right away. Bring him along slowly. If he busts out of the gates great, but if not the Spurs haven't gambled anything.

Spursdaone

07-06-2005, 03:29 AM

It think it is good to have one big who can hit 3's and the other big to be in the paint offensively. That is why Shaq and Horry was effective.

Horry For 3!

07-06-2005, 03:34 AM

It could be good but i'm not sure. If we did try to get Marshall, we would have to have either Nazr or Rasho. So trade one of them and keep one of them.

baseline bum

07-06-2005, 03:36 AM

Also, I don't see his contract approaching anything near $70 million. For example, what's a good base salary? I think he could pull $7.5-$8 million base at best. The most any other team could offer him is 5 years, $54.8 million (at a base salary of $8 million).

If this was 99-00 I'd be scared, but after teams saw what Miami did to themselves paying huge money to good role players I don't see them just throwing that kind of money around. Perhaps the new luxury tax rules will bring spending back up (we've seen Redd get offered max), but I doubt we'll ever see anything like the 99-00 offseason again.

The new CBA made locking Mohammed up long-term a lot more attractive to the Spurs. If Manu couldn't wrestle a 7th year out of the Spurs I don't see how Nazr could get a 6th.

Spursdaone

07-06-2005, 03:37 AM

Rasho for Marshall would make sense now.

timvp

07-06-2005, 04:07 AM

If Manu couldn't wrestle a 7th year out of the Spurs I don't see how Nazr could get a 6th.

Manu couldn't get a seventh year.

Also, I don't see his contract approaching anything near $70 million. For example, what's a good base salary? I think he could pull $7.5-$8 million base at best. The most any other team could offer him is 5 years, $54.8 million (at a base salary of $8 million).

For a good center on the open market, that is the hottest commodity. I think re-signing Nazr starts at $60M, IMO. If they can get him for cheaper, they should lock him up now.

With the Hawks throwing a contract starting at $10M at Zydrunas Ilgauskas, that shows it's tough to judge a center's value in today's world.

TheTruth

07-06-2005, 04:14 AM

Trade Nazr to the Grizzlies for Shane Battier. Then Sign Scola and Oberto with the MLE.

C - Rasho, Timmy, Oberto
PF - Timmy, Rob, Scola, Oberto
SF - Bruce, Battier, Brown
SG - Manu, Brent, Brown
PG - TP, Beno, Brent

Spursdaone

07-06-2005, 04:23 AM

Rasho sucks as a starting center. That would hurt the center position big time. No thanks.

TheTruth

07-06-2005, 04:25 AM

Rasho sucks as a starting center. That would hurt the center position big time. No thanks.
Spurs were on their way to breaking the record for biggest margin of vicotry per game when Rasho was starting.

Spursdaone

07-06-2005, 04:27 AM

Yeah but they got exploited in the playoffs against the Lakers due to Rasho not able to being a offensive force or a rebounder. The spurs went equally cold.

whottt

07-06-2005, 05:31 AM

Marshall> Rasho or Nazr

I can't even believe that is being seriously debated in this thread...

Not only is he a better scorer and rebounder than both of them...he's a better shotblocker than Nazr...and he can play SF all day long in this league and create mismatches...

Of course you do the trade, for either of them...You also might consider throwing in Scola and trying to pry a draft pick out of them(they do seem to have a stupid Front office, so why not try and get their lottery pick, even if it means giving up Beno and or Scola).

AHF needs to get off Nazr's jock as well...if you took away the 3 shots per game that get blocked back into Nazr's face he probably only averages a half an offensive rebound per game...and no I am not joking.

Marshall is a far superior player to either of our Centers, he can play the 3 and the 4 and he can dominate a game at the 3 postion...

Of course you do the trade.

Spursdaone

07-06-2005, 05:33 AM

Mohammad will be better than Marshall but Nesterovic sucks so Nesterovic trade would be great.

whottt

07-06-2005, 05:40 AM

Also...I don't feel threatened by the Nets...#1. Any player that is too stupid to realize that Kidd is going into toilet, I don't want on this team...

#2. The Nets have nothing to offer the Raptors that they are willing to give up...if they did they would have given it to them in the VC trade.

I'd like to see the Nets have some purpose in the NBA other than sucking ass and screwing up the Spurs plans...

The Nets need to realize that they suck ass as badly as it can be sucked and stop trying to pick up name FA...they aren't an elite team or big time player, they aren't going to win with Kidd...they are mediocrity personified and they need to know their fucking role and stay out of the way.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 05:44 AM

Of course you do the trade, for either of them...You also might consider throwing in Scola and trying to pry a draft pick out of them(they do seem to have a stupid Front office, so why not try and get their lottery pick, even if it means giving up Beno and or Scola).

while you're at it... trade them bruce... cause thats the only way he sees playing time, let alone playing time at the 3. you might be thinking of the marshall people saw 3 years ago with utah, this one is alot older.

TheTruth

07-06-2005, 05:46 AM

while you're at it... trade them bruce... cause thats the only way he sees playing time, let alone playing time at the 3. you might be thinking of the marshall people saw 3 years ago with utah, this one is alot older.
I think he is seeing the Marshall that can give you minutes at the 4 and 3. The one who is 6'9" and can shoot from anywhere on the floor.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 05:48 AM

yeah, well i hope you see robert horry? and if they do bring in scola, i'd much rather have a 25 year old backup to my 35 year old #2 bigman.

whottt

07-06-2005, 05:55 AM

while you're at it... trade them bruce... cause thats the only way he sees playing time, let alone playing time at the 3. you might be thinking of the marshall people saw 3 years ago with utah, this one is alot older.

Uh no...I am thinking of the one that destroyed us in the third quarter up in Toronto earlier this seaso...the one that shot over 40% from 3, scored 12 PPG and pulled down 6 boards while nearly averaging a block and a steal per game, all in about 25 mpg....

I am thinking of the same one Pop is thinking of....

There are plenty of minutes for Donyell Marshall on this team...Bowen is in line for a minutes reduction anyway...the guy is 34 years old...

Horry is gonna average about 15 MPG
Duncan about 35
Our C, whoever it is, about 25 MPG(or less, not more).

That's 21 MPG available right there... that have nothing to do with Bowen, since Marshall can play PF as well.

Karl Mundt

07-06-2005, 05:56 AM

7.6pts 9.0rebs 1.40blks in (27 mins) DEN
8.3pts 6.3rebs .67blks in (20 mins) SEA
4.9pts 6.0rebs .86blks in (22 mins) DET

ben wallace averaged 40mins 10.1pts 7.3rebs 3.0blks

He really averaged 10.3 rebounds. Still 6 rebounds in 22 minutes, with Tim grabbing so many, and against the Detroit backcourt, that's pretty good in my book. The problem in the finals was Ben and McDyess both scoring 10+ points on +50% FG%. (Horry deserves some blame for that aswell).

I think chances of Nazr staying a Spur are slim. Either he won't be good enough to start in front of Rasho, or he'll start but then command more money than the Spurs will be willing to pay, so trading him now when his stock his high and when he still has value for the Spurs is an option. I wouldn't do it for another PF though. With Marshall you will have Horry, Scola and him, 3 players who can never play center, so to go with that line up it would pretty much nessesitate Duncan moving to center full time. That's the only way you could divide minutes among those 3 players. But then if you did that, Rasho would only get minutes behind Duncan, and again, would probably cost too much to play 15 minutes a game (and close to zero come playoffs). I would only consider trading Nazr for a small forward. Unless you trade the rights to Scola for the SF...

whottt

07-06-2005, 05:57 AM

yeah, well i hope you see robert horry? and if they do bring in scola, i'd much rather have a 25 year old backup to my 35 year old #2 bigman.

I get where you are coming from now...

You are one of the ones that think a short, slow, shortarmed, Euro rookie, that can't rebound or block shots, is going to come in and contend for the 6th man of the year...or MVP.

No sense in continuing this argument...wake me when you return to reality.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 06:03 AM

Uh no...I am thinking of the one that destroyed us in the third quarter up in Toronto earlier this seaso...the one that shot over 40% from 3, scored 12 PPG and pulled down 6 boards while nearly averaging a block and a steal per game, all in about 25 mpg....

I am thinking of the same one Pop is thinking of....

well i'm think of the one pop thought about after he didnt get him last year. the one we won a championship without. the one that would be really redundant if you have horry/scola playing mins at the 4.

scola is 6'9" and 25... not 32 going on 33. theres no future there, either at the 3 spot or the 4. so if you'd do this trade, know he'd get about as many matchup problems at the 3 as glen robinson got in the finals. and as many mins as tmass got at power forward too.

im not saying its insane, im just saying to trade away a quality center for a guy that you basically have in horry... and to even think about trading scola away for a draft pick or as fodder... etc... is just strange man.

scola could be as important to this team 2 years from now as manu is right now... not that he has the same talent level, but in terms of giving both tim a break and playing a bigger role than a backup/backup 4 who isnt going to play the 3 much at all.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 06:05 AM

I get where you are coming from now...

You are one of the ones that think a short, slow, shortarmed, Euro rookie, that can't rebound or block shots, is going to come in and contend for the 6th man of the year...or MVP.

No sense in continuing this argument...wake me when you return to reality.
why wake you up, you're clearly insane...

i never said the guy would be the 6thman or MVP. i said he'd be more important in 2 years than a 34 year old marshall. and if you're going to bring the supposed best power forward in europe... might as well play him.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 06:15 AM

a short, slow, shortarmed, Euro rookie, that can't rebound or block shots, is going to come in and contend for the 6th man of the year...or MVP
by the way man... hate much? you could have just called him a garden gnome, or a one armed midget... i mean damn... is he blind in one eye like bogut too? :lol

whottt

07-06-2005, 06:29 AM

Ok in the world I live in, there is no equvalency between Horry and Marshall...the world I live in...Donyell Marshall can play SF and at times dominate at that postion(go back and look at the Toronto game when he did it playing alongside Chris Bosh)...the world I live in, Horry is slow even compared to other PF's and C's, and hasn't gotten meaningful minutes at the SF position since about 1998.

The world I live in...Scola may not even make it in the NBA.

The world I live in...repeating as champion takes precendence over rebuilding for the future...

And the world I live in, 32 year old players are valuable assets, especially to championship winning teams.

Especially when their worth is being measured against a guy whose chief contribution to the team, is being big...and who is considered to have a good game when he doesn't shortarm 4 or 5 point blank passes under the basket in a game...

Let's get this straight...Marshall is a SF that can play PF...Horry is a PF who was a slow SF long ago...

And Scola ranks lower than either of them in terms of being proven to play the PF position in the NBA.

whottt

07-06-2005, 06:30 AM

by the way man... hate much? you could have just called him a garden gnome, or a one armed midget... i mean damn... is he blind in one eye like bogut too? :lol

He is short.

He has short arms.

He is slow.

He isn't a good rebounder.

He can't block shots.

That's not called hate...that's called reality.

We already have a PF who can score pretty well...better than Scola...and if we get Marshall...we'll have two of them.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 06:37 AM

Ok in the world I live in, there is no equvalency between Horry and Marshall...the world I live in...Donyell Marshall can play SF and at times dominate at that postion(go back and look at the Toronto game when he did it playing alongside Chris Bosh)...the world I live in, Horry is slow even compared to other PF's and C's, and hasn't gotten meaningful minutes at the SF position since about 1998.

The world I live in...Scola may not even make it in the NBA.

The world I live in...repeating as champion takes precendence over rebuilding for the future...

in this world you live in... did the spurs just sign horry for 3 years? do the spurs draft players they dont want? did glen robinson play alot because he causes matchup problems? do you really think we'd use marshall more than horry at the 4... and do you really think he can replace bruce bowen at the 3 someday when he's 50?

constantstate

07-06-2005, 06:40 AM

He is short.

He has short arms.

He is slow.

He isn't a good rebounder.

He can't block shots.

...and answers to the name of lucky... if you have any info regarding the whereabouts of this player... please contact 225-spur.

Spurologist

07-06-2005, 06:58 AM

Rasho for Marshall?

whottt

07-06-2005, 07:04 AM

in this world you live in... did the spurs just sign horry for 3 years?
No, they signed him for 2 years with an option for the 3rd.

do the spurs draft players they dont want?

They draft players they end up not wanting...look at my avatar.

did glen robinson play alot because he causes matchup problems?

Guess what...the object is to improve your team...not tread water.

do you really think we'd use marshall more than horry at the 4

We'd definitely use him more at that postion than Scola IMO.

... and do you really think he can replace bruce bowen at the 3 someday when he's 50?

I think he can back him up better than Scola, Barry or Brown can....now.

And again...I am not worried about someday...someday is here already for this team...the time to win titles is now.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 07:05 AM

I think chances of Nazr staying a Spur are slim. Either he won't be good enough to start in front of Rasho, or he'll start but then command more money than the Spurs will be willing to pay, so trading him now when his stock his high and when he still has value for the Spurs is an option. I wouldn't do it for another PF though. With Marshall you will have Horry, Scola and him, 3 players who can never play center, so to go with that line up it would pretty much nessesitate Duncan moving to center full time. That's the only way you could divide minutes among those 3 players. But then if you did that, Rasho would only get minutes behind Duncan, and again, would probably cost too much to play 15 minutes a game (and close to zero come playoffs). I would only consider trading Nazr for a small forward. Unless you trade the rights to Scola for the SF...
there might be a chance that they can extend him now/soon, so that his value wont balloon anymore than it already has/is... but most likely you're right. either of them are pretty quality/starting centers, if one had to go, it would be nice to get a young quality SF. bruce needs the same kind of rest that horry needs now (imo) to keep him semi-fresh. if not now, soon. and what if he went down/out with an injury? there's no true 3 to fill in.

Marcus Bryant

07-06-2005, 07:07 AM

Don Harris on the news tonight brought up a Donyell Marshall for Rasho Nesterovic deal. If that is on the table, I'm sure it'd be much easier to swallow for Spurs fans. I'd hate to see Rasho go and lose his size, but Marshall is a talent that fits the Spurs.

Two questions:

1) Do you do that trade?

Yes, contingent on getting an extension done this summer with Mohammed. If they can move Rasho's deal and sign Marshall to a smaller, shorter deal then they've trimmed a little payroll there. But they are going to have to commit to paying for some bigman depth.

Right now I think if the Spurs put a 6 year deal worth $50 to 55 mil on the table for Mohammed that he takes it. A lot can happen in a year to a player.

2) Do you think a bigman rotation of Mohammed, Duncan, Horry, Marshall and Scola is good or could that be too many players fighting for the same minutes?

That should be flexible enough to match up with and pose problems for virtually every other team in the NBA.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 07:14 AM

blah, blah, blah...
ok... but i dont remember anyone saying sato (is that who that is?) was the best power forward in europe. nor do i remember people thinking a guy named manu... who people said was the best shooting guard in europe... could make it here either?

you win now... i agree. but that cliche is also used by everyone who doesnt have the foresight that the spurs use to draft players... like scola. they signed horry for 3 years to give him more money... but you can bet that they're gonna use him. and if you're going to trade away one of 2 quality starting centers... why flood a spot, when you can go after a young SF instead? someone that can take mins away from bruce?

whottt

07-06-2005, 07:36 AM

ok... but i dont remember anyone saying sato (is that who that is?) was the best power forward in europe.

How about Gordan Giricek?

Sato was a higher pick than Scola...

And success in Europe does not gurantee success in the NBA, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't...the freaking Euroleague MVP this year is an NBA washout.

nor do i remember people thinking a guy named manu... who people said was the best shooting guard in europe... could make it here either?

I never had a doubt about Manu after seeing him play...I've seen Scola play...I've seen him play well...I don't think he's going to be a great NBA player...he damn sure isn't going to have the success Manu had...because he's got big time physical limitations at his position that Manu doesn't.

you win now... i agree. but that cliche is also used by everyone who doesnt have the foresight that the spurs use to draft players... like scola. they signed horry for 3 years to give him more money... but you can bet that they're gonna use him. and if you're going to trade away one of 2 quality starting centers... why flood a spot, when you can go after a young SF instead? someone that can take mins away from bruce?

What makes you think the Spurs are still sold on Scola?

What makes you think they value him over a proven tough NBA matchup like Marshall?

What makes him the best PF in Europe isn't his D and his rebounding...it's scoring around the basket...that's not the priority with the Spurs...if that's all he can do(and it is), the Spurs will move him if they can...

strangeweather

07-06-2005, 08:01 AM

Ok in the world I live in, there is no equvalency between Horry and Marshall...the world I live in...Donyell Marshall can play SF and at times dominate at that postion(go back and look at the Toronto game when he did it playing alongside Chris Bosh)...the world I live in, Horry is slow even compared to other PF's and C's, and hasn't gotten meaningful minutes at the SF position since about 1998.

So why can't he stick anywhere? The only team he's been with for more than 2 years is Golden State, and he didn't exactly put them over the top. Why is a crappy team like Toronto looking to dump him yet again?

And why in the world would a team like the Spurs that has at least another five good years of contending left with Tim and Manu going to trade for a guy on the downside of his career to play behind Horry, another guy on the downside of his career?

Marcus Bryant

07-06-2005, 08:10 AM

whottt is now arguing that Horry's clutchness is a commodity?

constantstate

07-06-2005, 08:13 AM

How about Gordan Giricek?

they wanted him... they just wanted to keep manu more, remember?

What makes you think the Spurs are still sold on Scola?

the fact that they were talking about buying his contract out... and/or meeting with him. what makes you think they're not?

What makes you think they value him over a proven tough NBA matchup like Marshall?

i dont know what value they're placing on scola... i guess we'll find out soon enough. but the post was about nazr/rasho... and no, i dont think its worth losing that kind of depth for a guy that wouldnt play the 3 and have a hard time backing up horry if they choose to get scola too.

What makes him the best PF in Europe isn't his D and his rebounding...it's scoring around the basket...that's not the priority with the Spurs...if that's all he can do(and it is), the Spurs will move him if they can...
well you kinda made this into a scola vs. marshall thing... so i'll bring age up again. 2 years from now when robert horry is dust and bruce is almost ashes too, it would be nice to have a guy that can score around the basket who's 27, and that young SF we got for rasho/nazr.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 08:17 AM

So why can't he stick anywhere? The only team he's been with for more than 2 years is Golden State, and he didn't exactly put them over the top. Why is a crappy team like Toronto looking to dump him yet again?

And why in the world would a team like the Spurs that has at least another five good years of contending left with Tim and Manu going to trade for a guy on the downside of his career to play behind Horry, another guy on the downside of his career?
all of this... this is what i'd like to know too.

whottt

07-06-2005, 08:27 AM

they wanted him... they just wanted to keep manu more, remember?

Well they wanted Sato also...they just wanted Glenn Robinson or Dion Glover more...

They want the worst player in the NBA as well...they just want all the ones that aren't as bad more.

the fact that they were talking about buying his contract out... and/or meeting with him. what makes you think they're not?

His trade value is at an all time high...

And I think the Spurs want someone who will help the teams title chances this season and possibly the next 2 years as well...

And I think there are a lot of guys that can do that better than Scola. Like I said...we've already got a pretty good scoring PF.

i dont know what value they're placing on scola... i guess we'll find out soon enough. but the post was about nazr/rasho... and no, i dont think its worth losing that kind of depth for a guy that wouldnt play the 3 and have a hard time backing up horry if they choose to get scola too.

So you'd rather have an unproven 3rd team PF than a back up SF for our 34 year old SF(and a position we frequently have match up problems with)?

well you kinda made this into a scola vs. marshall thing... so i'll bring age up again. 2 years from now when robert horry is dust and bruce is almost ashes too, it would be nice to have a guy that can score around the basket who's 27,

A guy that could score around the basket in Europe.....you don't know how well he's going to do it in the NBA.

Rasho was a good scorer in Europe too...come to think of it...I think he was once the best C in Europe...

And I think it'd be nicer to win two titles in a row, than build for the future at the expense of building the best title contending team we can, this year.....Seeing as how Duncan's prime is now.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 08:35 AM

marshall wont take bruce's mins at the 3 because we use bruce to stop people... quick people... like we used devin, even though he's undersized. and i'd actually like you to answer strangeweather's questions too. the guy has bounced around more than a superball flung by shaq... and he's 32... what makes you think he's all that?

i now understand where you're coming from with the rest... you dont like scola... fine. the point is, if we do buyout his contract... whats the point in trading our depth at center to flood the 4 and hardly play a guy at the 3?

Warlord23

07-06-2005, 08:40 AM

Rasho for Marshall is iffy but I'd do it at the end of the day ... Rasho's value only shows up when Duncan is injured, whereas Marshall would be valuable throughout.

But Nazr for Marshall is much more difficult IMO ... Considering this is Nazr's first playoffs I'd give him the benefit of doubt ... and the number of threads gloating over his offensive rebounding must have been in double digits this season .... I also thought Nazr did some good work against Amare in patches ... and we'd need a rebounder with size if we need to keep our advantage vs Phoenix ... too often in playoff games we were killing them with second-chance points.

Marshall won't get significantly better than what he's already shown .. but Nazr could prove to be a very useful center in a league short on them. Which is why I won't do this trade.

whottt

07-06-2005, 08:50 AM

marshall wont take bruce's mins at the 3 because we use bruce to stop people... quick people... like we used devin, even though he's undersized.

And we also stuggle when we are matched up against long SF's...big people...and our roation of 2 guards is too small and too light for them...

and i'd actually like you to answer strangeweather's questions too. the guy has bounced around more than a superball flung by shaq... and he's 32... what makes you think he's all that?

Have you ever watched the guy play, what he did to us last season?(Scratch that, if you had, we wouldn't be having this discussion).

The guy is unstoppable at that position at times...and he can freaking shoot, score and rebound, better than any of the the 2 guard sized guys we play at that position...my guess is he can do those things at the PF position better than Scola.

i now understand where you're coming from with the rest... you dont like scola... fine. the point is, if we do buyout his contract... whats the point in trading our depth at center to flood the 4 and hardly play a guy at the 3?

I like Scola fine...

You are just in denial over the obivious physical limitations he has that will be a challenge for him to overcome in the NBA...You also seem to think that having a project 3rd team PF is more important than havign a legitimate SF, even at the back up spot. You also seem to think that 3 years from now is more important than repeating this year...

You are giving this guy total credit for stuff he hasn't done...he hasn't proven he is an NBA player...he has proved he is weak rebounder, even in Europe, and he is slow for that position by NBA standards...

I know what his strengths are..finishing around the baket, a firey demeanor, and above average passing...

That's not our greatest need right now...

Having a legitimate SF is...considering we have none on our roster...and the 2 guard sized SF we trot out there to play the position is not a strong offensive player and he is 34 years old...

Useruser666

07-06-2005, 09:00 AM

Rasho for Marsh. Do it.

Resign Nazr. Do it.

Calm Whottt down. Do it.

constantstate

07-06-2005, 09:01 AM

I know what his strengths are..finishing around the baket, a firey demeanor, and above average passing...

That's not our greatest need right now...

Having a legitimate SF is...considering we have none on our roster...and the 2 guard sized SF we trot out there to play the position is not a strong offensive player and he is 34 years old...
we use bruce to cover alot of ground... 2nd in DPoY is not someone we're trotting out there for no reason. (you know that) so given the way we use that position... wouldnt it be better to trade for a guy that would actually play SF?

and i'm done with this argument too... there's no way in hell i'd do this trade if we brought scola in... if we didnt, maybe... i just still think there's better guys out there for the 3 spot than him.

bigbendbruisebrother

07-06-2005, 09:15 AM

To further my point that the Spurs work better with a perimeter shooting big in the lineup, you can look at Mohammed's +/- for the season. In the regular season, the Spurs were -6.5 points when Nazr was in the game. In the playoffs, the Spurs were even with Nazr in the game. That means that he didn't really make a difference either way considering he played a lot of his times with starters around him, that isn't saying too much. Horry, on the other hand, was a +10.4 in the regular season and a +8.7 in the playoffs. Obviously his ability to spread the defense helped the Spurs. Marshall can do the same thing.

Nice post LJ. I think this would be a good trade to make. To add to your point regarding the +/- figures though, 82games.com listed Nazr as a -8.1 in the playoffs, and Horry as a +9.8. Of course, as you guys have pointed out previously +/- numbers can be decieving. Glenn Robinson is #2 on the team with a plus 11.1. But your point is valid. When Duncan gets space, the Spurs win.

whottt

07-06-2005, 09:19 AM

we use bruce to cover alot of ground... 2nd in DPoY is not someone we're trotting out there for no reason. (you know that) so given the way we use that position... wouldnt it be better to trade for a guy that would actually play SF?

And Bruce is at his best guarding 2 guards...not SF's...we don't have anyone that can truly guard the modern day SF's...it's a liability for us...it was all of last season...and what's so wrong with having another 34 year old NBA caliber SF to plug into that position for when Bruce turns 36?

And Marshall is a true SF who can play PF...

and i'm done with this argument too... there's no way in hell i'd do this trade if we brought scola in... if we didnt, maybe... i just still think there's better guys out there for the 3 spot than him.

PF is probably the least need position on this team, scoring at the PF position is at the absolute bottom of the list of what this team needs...about the only need we have there is a guy who can defend Amare...and Scola aint that guy...

Scola's value lies in some day taking over for Duncan...well...the day that happens our title winning days will be over...it's best to take advantage of our window now...at the expense of the future. Our future is not going to be as good as our present.