Army suspends tuition assistance program

[LnGrrrR]

Really hoping they don't suspend it for the Air Force.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2013/03/army-army-to-suspend-tuition-assistance-030813

This is something that hits the rank and file of enlisted folks pretty strongly. Many airmen I know are working on their degrees while in the military, and without the extra $4500 many of them will choose not to go. There's only so many scholarships out there, after all. And with the Air Force nearly mandating personal education as a means of separating yourself from the pack, this would be a big blow for motivated troops.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Words can't describe how unfair this is to people enlisted in the army. Taking tuition assistance away from people who joined the army largely because it was their means of financing college is completely dishonest bullshit. They know full and well that recruiting people without being able to offer tuition assistance would be mission impossible.

Just another example of our corrupt government ensuring economic woes only hit those at the middle and at the bottom. The first program that's cut always seems to be a program related to enabling middle class and lower middle class americans to get an education.

[leemajors]

Words can't describe how unfair this is to people enlisted in the army. Taking tuition assistance away from people who joined the army largely because it was their means of financing college is completely dishonest bullshit. They know full and well that recruiting people without being able to offer tuition assistance would be mission impossible.

Just another example of our corrupt government ensuring economic woes only hit those at the middle and at the bottom. The first program that's cut always seems to be a program related to enabling middle class and lower middle class americans to get an education.

:tu

[LnGrrrR]

Words can't describe how unfair this is to people enlisted in the army. Taking tuition assistance away from people who joined the army largely because it was their means of financing college is completely dishonest bullshit. They know full and well that recruiting people without being able to offer tuition assistance would be mission impossible.

Just another example of our corrupt government ensuring economic woes only hit those at the middle and at the bottom. The first program that's cut always seems to be a program related to enabling middle class and lower middle class americans to get an education.

To be clear, they still have the GI Bill, which grants them a certain amount of cash per year. But that's a limited basis, and most people save that for A) add'l education when they get out of the military, B) topping up (ie. if you're going to a school where the credit hours are more than $250 per hr, you can use the GI Bill to pay the rest), or C) donating it to your spouse or children.

I plan on donating mine to my children... assuming they keep tuition assistance going. If not, not sure what I'll do. And obviously like you said DoK, this affects enlisted a ton more than officers, since officers already have a bachelor's degree.

[MannyIsGod]

So I think its unfair to kill the benefit for those who enlisted thinking they'd have it available but I generally think the military is a bloated entity of the government that needs cuts so I think they should share in the belt tightening if not lead it.

And here in lies the crux of what we should all start getting used to going forward. If people really want to pay down the debt then they'd better get used to a whole hell of a lot of "unfair" being spread around.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't disagree with the military being bloated but the US has a long tradition of shitting on their enlisted men. VA and enlisted benefits have been deteriorating but weapons programs like the 40 F-35s and the B-2 and the Osprey and tanks we don't need and cruisers we don't need? They get $100s of billions.

They spent $200b on 40 fucking planes when the f-15 which was developed in the 70s is still better than most anything.

[silverblk mystix]

I'd argue that if one enlisted for the sole purpose of furthering their education (or at least one of the reasons for joining) that a valid reason for leaving the military would be for breach of contract.

[boutons_deux]

"one enlisted for the purpose of ... "

so now we're going to have "enlistment purpose" police?

what about the poor, unemployed, no-future people who don't GA patriotic F about USA, but enlist to get room, board, and a salary? or teenagers with masculinity confusion and enlist in the Marines to Be A Man?

[LnGrrrR]

I'd argue that if one enlisted for the sole purpose of furthering their education (or at least one of the reasons for joining) that a valid reason for leaving the military would be for breach of contract.

Ha! Unfortunately, once you sign up, you sign up. There's nothing in the contract that says you'll get any benefits (excepting ones written into the contract, like signing bonuses). Even when we had the government shutdown, we knew we were going to have to go to work, paid or unpaid.

[silverblk mystix]

Ha! Unfortunately, once you sign up, you sign up. There's nothing in the contract that says you'll get any benefits (excepting ones written into the contract, like signing bonuses). Even when we had the government shutdown, we knew we were going to have to go to work, paid or unpaid.

Depends on which attorney took the case.

Breach of contract is breach of contract.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So I think its unfair to kill the benefit for those who enlisted thinking they'd have it available but I generally think the military is a bloated entity of the government that needs cuts so I think they should share in the belt tightening if not lead it.

And here in lies the crux of what we should all start getting used to going forward. If people really want to pay down the debt then they'd better get used to a whole hell of a lot of "unfair" being spread around.
Manny it wouldn't be unfair if officers in the military were taking a hit too. I understand paying down the debt means everyone is gonna have to suffer, but so far all the ideas from both sides involve the middle class getting the brunt of the suffering while wealth continues to disproportionally concentrate at the top. I know you agree with this, but for this situation there are countless ways to cut defense spending before we have to start shitting on enlisted men like this. For one, there's no reason we need as many people in the military as we have.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

what about the poor, unemployed, no-future people who don't GA patriotic F about USA, but enlist to get room, board, and a salary?


What about 'em? It's not their fault the country they live in makes it so their only real option after high school is the military. It's by design the government makes it so the only way they'll have any future once they turn 18 is if they serve as zionist mercenaries for a few years.

[LnGrrrR]

Manny it wouldn't be unfair if officers in the military were taking a hit too. I understand paying down the debt means everyone is gonna have to suffer, but so far all the ideas from both sides involve the middle class getting the brunt of the suffering while wealth continues to disproportionally concentrate at the top. I know you agree with this, but for this situation there are countless ways to cut defense spending before we have to start shitting on enlisted men like this. For one, there's no reason we need as many people in the military as we have.

This nominally affects officers too (as tuition assistance is cut for all), but realistically it affects enlisted more overall (since officers have degrees already and make much more than enlisted.)

And hey, I guess one way to kick people out/get less people in is by reducing benefits...

[Drachen]

Manny it wouldn't be unfair if officers in the military were taking a hit too. I understand paying down the debt means everyone is gonna have to suffer, but so far all the ideas from both sides involve the middle class getting the brunt of the suffering while wealth continues to disproportionally concentrate at the top. I know you agree with this, but for this situation there are countless ways to cut defense spending before we have to start shitting on enlisted men like this. For one, there's no reason we need as many people in the military as we have.


That might kinda be the point with a move like this.

[spursncowboys]

Really hoping they don't suspend it for the Air Force.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2013/03/army-army-to-suspend-tuition-assistance-030813

This is something that hits the rank and file of enlisted folks pretty strongly. Many airmen I know are working on their degrees while in the military, and without the extra $4500 many of them will choose not to go. There's only so many scholarships out there, after all. And with the Air Force nearly mandating personal education as a means of separating yourself from the pack, this would be a big blow for motivated troops.
AF budget is pretty huge, compared to Army, so I don't think so. Plus the Army has all their Generals with their bloated entourage.

[spursncowboys]

Words can't describe how unfair this is to people enlisted in the army. Taking tuition assistance away from people who joined the army largely because it was their means of financing college is completely dishonest bullshit. They know full and well that recruiting people without being able to offer tuition assistance would be mission impossible.

Just another example of our corrupt government ensuring economic woes only hit those at the middle and at the bottom. The first program that's cut always seems to be a program related to enabling middle class and lower middle class americans to get an education.
I don't think I've ever agreed with you before...

[spursncowboys]

Had they had followed Robert Gate's ideas on going after the real waste of the military-the Pentagon- this wouldn't be so severe.

[spursncowboys]

To be clear, they still have the GI Bill, which grants them a certain amount of cash per year. But that's a limited basis, and most people save that for A) add'l education when they get out of the military, B) topping up (ie. if you're going to a school where the credit hours are more than $250 per hr, you can use the GI Bill to pay the rest), or C) donating it to your spouse or children.

I plan on donating mine to my children... assuming they keep tuition assistance going. If not, not sure what I'll do. And obviously like you said DoK, this affects enlisted a ton more than officers, since officers already have a bachelor's degree.
Yeah plus most states have programs set up like the yellow ribbon. Maybe not most.

[spursncowboys]

Manny it wouldn't be unfair if officers in the military were taking a hit too. I understand paying down the debt means everyone is gonna have to suffer, but so far all the ideas from both sides involve the middle class getting the brunt of the suffering while wealth continues to disproportionally concentrate at the top. I know you agree with this, but for this situation there are countless ways to cut defense spending before we have to start shitting on enlisted men like this. For one, there's no reason we need as many people in the military as we have.
32 Brigades total is not alot at all! Although I'm in the Army, I am getting out so I don't really have a benefit to my view but i don't think as a nation we should ever go lower than 35. That would keep us able to fight a true large scale war, or a small war with an ability to cycle units.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't disagree with the military being bloated but the US has a long tradition of shitting on their enlisted men. VA and enlisted benefits have been deteriorating but weapons programs like the 40 F-35s and the B-2 and the Osprey and tanks we don't need and cruisers we don't need? They get $100s of billions.

They spent $200b on 40 fucking planes when the f-15 which was developed in the 70s is still better than most anything.


Manny it wouldn't be unfair if officers in the military were taking a hit too. I understand paying down the debt means everyone is gonna have to suffer, but so far all the ideas from both sides involve the middle class getting the brunt of the suffering while wealth continues to disproportionally concentrate at the top. I know you agree with this, but for this situation there are countless ways to cut defense spending before we have to start shitting on enlisted men like this. For one, there's no reason we need as many people in the military as we have.

Agree with both of these posts (as predicted by DOK haha).

[MannyIsGod]

That might kinda be the point with a move like this.

No fucking way. Its just that they can shit on enlisted personnel without much of a backlash from anyone. The enlisted of our military don't have the type of lobbyists the military industrial complex has.

[Drachen]

No fucking way. Its just that they can shit on enlisted personnel without much of a backlash from anyone. The enlisted of our military don't have the type of lobbyists the military industrial complex has.

Yes, and they know it will lose them recruits.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, and they know it will lose them recruits.

I'm not sure it will lose them recruits. Why are you so certain?

[DarrinS]

FYI...This is seperate from GI Bill.

[MannyIsGod]

Holy shit Darrin thanks for repeating what was stated up top. Read motherfucker.

[Drachen]

I'm not sure it will lose them recruits. Why are you so certain?

They were having trouble hitting their numbers not so long ago (and still may be). You take away one of the "pros" of joining the military, you will lose some subset of those few who were going to join.

[MannyIsGod]

They were having trouble hitting their numbers not so long ago (and still may be). You take away one of the "pros" of joining the military, you will lose some subset of those few who were going to join.

You lose some subset of those few who were going to join IF:

- There is now a better option
- They understand that this was a pro to begin with. Most recruiters can still say there's money for college and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of those who enlist don't get a breakdown on where the money comes from before joining. They just here XXXXXX dollars for college which they will still hear.

We'll see, but I don't think you can assume this will have a big impact on recruiting numbers.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

32 Brigades total is not alot at all! Although I'm in the Army, I am getting out so I don't really have a benefit to my view but i don't think as a nation we should ever go lower than 35. That would keep us able to fight a true large scale war, or a small war with an ability to cycle units.

I should have said this more clearly but I said military as I wasn't just referring to the army branch but the military as a whole. Assuming the 1.4 million military personnel number I've seen is accurate, I think that's way too high. Maybe it's other branches that need more personnel cuts, but our military spending is out of control.

[LnGrrrR]

I wouldn't mind a smaller force, but it would be nice if they could drop the number of missions being performed before they start cutting.

[ChumpDumper]

That sucks.

[DarrinS]

Holy shit Darrin thanks for repeating what was stated up top. Read motherfucker.

gfy

[Th'Pusher]

gfy
Seriously dude. It's not like it was a 50 page thread. Is it that hard to read before commenting? It's obvious you're not well read, but fuck, it was made clear by the op within a few responses.

[DarrinS]

Seriously dude. It's not like it was a 50 page thread. Is it that hard to read before commenting? It's obvious you're not well read, but fuck, it was made clear by the op within a few responses.

honest mistake. Now gfy

[Th'Pusher]

honest mistake. Now gfy
I'm not sure laziness can be catogorized as a mistake.

[Drachen]

The Air Force is considering whether to curtail tuition assistance after the Defense Department told all of the services to consider cutting funding for the program, officials said.

The Army and Marine Corps have both decided to suspend their tuition assistance programs. Soldiers and Marines can finish the current semester, but the services are not allowing new enrollments.

Each service is responsible for funding and administering its tuition assistance program, said Defense Department spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Nathan Christensen.

“This week, DOD’s comptroller issued guidance indicating that the services should consider significant reductions in funding new tuition assistance applicants, effective immediately and for the duration of the current fiscal situation,” Christensen said in an email.

The Air Force has not yet decided whether to make any reductions in funding for tuition assistance, said service spokeswoman Capt. Candice Ismirle. Officials expect to have a decision in the next week or so, she said.

The Navy has also not yet decided whether to reduce its TA funding.

“We are in the process of reviewing our tuition assistance policy, and at the heart of review is the need to balance budget shortfalls with our commitment to sailor benefits,” said Navy spokeswoman Lt. Courtney Hillson.

http://www.navytimes.com/mobile/news/2013/03/air-force-tuition-assistance-030813w

[spursncowboys]

I wouldn't mind a smaller force, but it would be nice if they could drop the number of missions being performed before they start cutting.
:lol yeah. Optempo is like a deployment right now.

[spursncowboys]

I should have said this more clearly but I said military as I wasn't just referring to the army branch but the military as a whole. Assuming the 1.4 million military personnel number I've seen is accurate, I think that's way too high. Maybe it's other branches that need more personnel cuts, but our military spending is out of control.
The reason why I point out the Army is because it is the main fighting force. There can definitely be cuts in the defense without going after personnel. Also make officers in charge of decisions unable to work for any company that makes a bid. But with an American population of 300+ million with 20 million 20-24 yr olds, it doesn't that high.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Seriously dude. It's not like it was a 50 page thread. Is it that hard to read before commenting? It's obvious you're not well read, but fuck, it was made clear by the op within a few responses.

Your talking about the guy that posts articles time and again without reading them. He seems literate. I dunno.

[CuckingFunt]

So I think its unfair to kill the benefit for those who enlisted thinking they'd have it available but I generally think the military is a bloated entity of the government that needs cuts so I think they should share in the belt tightening if not lead it.

And here in lies the crux of what we should all start getting used to going forward. If people really want to pay down the debt then they'd better get used to a whole hell of a lot of "unfair" being spread around.

This isn't really an example of the military leading the belt tightening, though.

This is more like if I were to start tipping less as a way of cutting down my personal expenses.

[MannyIsGod]

This isn't really an example of the military leading the belt tightening, though.

This is more like if I were to start tipping less as a way of cutting down my personal expenses.

I would say that its the type of belt tightening we're likely to see. I fully expect cuts to come from programs that benefit those who are least likely to be able to fight back against said cuts.

[CuckingFunt]

I would say that its the type of belt tightening we're likely to see. I fully expect cuts to come from programs that benefit those who are least likely to be able to fight back against said cuts.

Oh, I agree with that. And, based on your previous political posting history, I'm pretty sure it's something with which we are similarly annoyed.

I think I was thrown a bit by your phrasing when I first read that comment, though.

[baseline bum]

I would say that its the type of belt tightening we're likely to see. I fully expect cuts to come from programs that benefit those who are least likely to be able to fight back against said cuts.

Yeah, I'm scared to even look what's happening with the NPS right now, and I wonder where this leaves funding for the Webb Space Telescope.

[Wild Cobra]

Depends on which attorney took the case.

Breach of contract is breach of contract.
It's not breach of contract. I wish it was. I think the correct approach would have been to keep it for those in, during their current enlistment. New enlistees wouldn't get it though unless they have signed up delayed entry prior to the announcement. They should also get a letter saying that they can now opt out.

[exstatic]

No fucking way. Its just that they can shit on enlisted personnel without much of a backlash from anyone. The enlisted of our military don't have the type of lobbyists the military industrial complex has.

Officers can also resign immediately if they shit on them too much. Enlisted don't have that option.

[AFBlue]

I feel bad for the Army and Marine Corps troops that are losing this benefit. Unfortunately, I've lived the experience that cuts to defense usually impact service members first and foremost...two Reduction-in-Force initiatives in six years, the first of which was specifically targeted to pay for weapons programs.

Sucks they can't support both and the service member loses that battle.

[AFBlue]

Officers can also resign immediately if they shit on them too much. Enlisted don't have that option.

Not true actually...officers have an initial service commitment of 4-5 years and get additional service commitment when they take advantage of the very program that's being suspended.

It disproportionately affect enlisted, but it also affects officers that can't just up and leave.

[Wild Cobra]

I feel bad for the Army and Marine Corps troops that are losing this benefit. Unfortunately, I've lived the experience that cuts to defense usually impact service members first and foremost...two Reduction-in-Force initiatives in six years, the first of which was specifically targeted to pay for weapons programs.

Sucks they can't support both and the service member loses that battle.
The military doesn't need so many soldiers now that we have pulled out of active engagement. They increased the benefit level to entice new recruits, now they have to reduce the benefits to entice people to leave on their own, rather than finding a formula to decline people who wish to reenlist.

Supply and demand rules in all things.

I had my notice in 1991 that they were eliminating my job field. I could have stayed in, but I would have had to cross train to a job I didn't want. It worked in getting me out, plus, $28k+ exit bonus wasn't anything to sneeze at in 1991.

[Wild Cobra]

Not true actually...officers have an initial service commitment of 4-5 years and get additional service commitment when they take advantage of the very program that's being suspended.

It disproportionately affect enlisted, but it also affects officers that can't just up and leave.
When I was in, enlisted had a six year commitment minimum, officers 10 years. Now it didn't matter how much of that was active, Some MOS' were only a 2 year commitment, and some as many as 4 like mine. The difference was a required active or inactive reserve. Any time during that 6 or 10 years, one could be called back for a combat situation. I don't know the range of active time for officers, but in my day, the difference was the same thing. Active or inactive reserve to finish 10 years for them.

[AFBlue]

The military doesn't need so many soldiers now that we have pulled out of active engagement...

I stopped reading here. I can't speak for ops tempo of the guard/reserve units that were on regular deployment schedules at the height of the Iraq war, but the Army is still overtasked to the point where it's calling on the Air Force to support taskings.

Just because it's not in the news everyday, doesn't mean there's not "active engagement."

[Wild Cobra]

I stopped reading here. I can't speak for ops tempo of the guard/reserve units that were on regular deployment schedules at the height of the Iraq war, but the Army is still overtasked to the point where it's calling on the Air Force to support taskings.

Just because it's not in the news everyday, doesn't mean there's not "active engagement."
That's a surprise to me. Maybe I'm wrong. What is it over tasked for now that we have pulled out of active engagement? I'm out of the loop now. What's going on?

[Jacob1983]

Just another example of Uncle Sam taking a shit on the U.S. military. What a disgrace and shame.

[PublicOption]

Increase taxes on the rich. Who have sent manufacturing jobs overseas. The middle class is shrinking. The tax base is shrinking and the only ones that can pay for shit are the rich. Tax the hell out of them.

[PublicOption]

One thing I have noticed about the military. They don't work anymore. They contract everything out. When I was in the army in the early 90's. we did everything. And my peers did everything. I work at bamc and now all I see is civilians and contractors doing everything. The soldiers are always shaming, getting out of work for this or that. Never doing the job they came in for. There will an assistant to the assistant oic and ncoic. It's a shame I think the overspending is on the military side. Not the civil service side.

[AFBlue]

That's a surprise to me. Maybe I'm wrong. What is it over tasked for now that we have pulled out of active engagement? I'm out of the loop now. What's going on?

We'll be in "active engagement" with several thousand troops in Afghanistan through 2014.

And even without "active engagement" there are several thousand forward-deployes positions to the region across the services.

I think that's what LnGrrr was referring to further up-thread.

[boutons_deux]

DoD will shit on the grunts first and hardest, it's the military's lower class, but find ways to "break the sequester" law so the $Bs keep flowing to the corrupt MIC, the DoD's wealthy class.

[AFBlue]

Gotta stay ahead of the Chinese technologically and plan for the next, next conflict tbh. Unfortunately, that's the pace of development for a major weapons program.

The sad part is that there are no reprecussions for how poorly a program is executed...case-in-point the F-35 fiasco, which won't skip a beat funding-wise even though it breached Nunn-McCurdy by more than 50% in 2010.

[Agloco]

:td

Shitty. I look for medical benefits to begin drying up in the not too distant future. Lngrr oughta be as pleased as pie about that.

[spursncowboys]

One thing I have noticed about the military. They don't work anymore. They contract everything out. When I was in the army in the early 90's. we did everything. And my peers did everything. I work at bamc and now all I see is civilians and contractors doing everything. The soldiers are always shaming, getting out of work for this or that. Never doing the job they came in for. There will an assistant to the assistant oic and ncoic. It's a shame I think the overspending is on the military side. Not the civil service side.
You're seeing a bad side of it then. I always loved my combat medics but the ones at HQ or at the hospital have no military bearing. But that isn't normal IMO.

[spursncowboys]

We'll be in "active engagement" with several thousand troops in Afghanistan through 2014.

And even without "active engagement" there are several thousand forward-deployes positions to the region across the services.

I think that's what LnGrrr was referring to further up-thread.
Open the Army Times and see units deployed all over world. The new thing right now is having Quick Response Forces in Africa.

[Wild Cobra]

:td

Shitty. I look for medical benefits to begin drying up in the not too distant future. Lngrr oughta be as pleased as pie about that.
LOL...

If the military eliminates their medical system, and turns it all over to Obamacare, it's no longer part of their budget, right?

[LnGrrrR]

:td

Shitty. I look for medical benefits to begin drying up in the not too distant future. Lngrr oughta be as pleased as pie about that.

Which is why I'm working to get my kids surgery ASAP before it costs me a few thousand...

Oh and AF did suspend tuition assistance. Damn it.

[symple19]

One thing I have noticed about the military. They don't work anymore :lmao. They contract everything out. When I was in the army in the early 90's. we did everything. And my peers did everything. I work at bamc and now all I see is civilians and contractors doing everything. The soldiers are always shaming, getting out of work for this or that. Never doing the job they came in for. There will an assistant to the assistant oic and ncoic. It's a shame I think the overspending is on the military side. Not the civil service side.

:lmao

Except doing any real fighting (outside of a day in Iraq and a few weeks in Somalia) like the Army has been doing almost non-stop for 10+ years

Your fondly remembered USA days were the last gasp of the Cold War Era, when a red swarm through the Fulda gap was the only thing that made any of the Brass nervous and there were 250K+ more Army troops... Things are different now (downsizing esp), weapons systems are far more advanced, and with the smaller size there are naturally more things to do for the civilians. I'm sure there is a shitload of waste on both sides, but blaming this on 'shamming' soldiers is easily the dumbest thing i've yet to read in this thread (and darrenS has made an appearance)

And holy fuck, if your acronym up there stands for Brooke Army Medical Center, then no shit there are a lot of civilians you fucktard. It's a goddamn rear-echelon base filled with fat-assed, rear echelon types. Try going to a base that's home to a combat unit... smfh...

[boutons_deux]

Pentagon Reinstates Tuition Assistance Program For U.S. Troops (http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/03/28/1787381/dod-tuition-program-troops/)


http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/03/28/1787381/dod-tuition-program-troops/