View Full Version : Is Manu becoming a Liability?
He's obviously declining (understatement) but I don't think he realizes it. Is he now more of a liability than an asset (especially on defense)?
I'd like to get Nono's take on this. Let's discuss...
DejuanorwhatDude
03-09-2013, 02:30 PM
Yes. He can't drive as well, he turns the ball over too much and is seeming to have more trouble providing the spark off the bench. I think he could hack it one more year but after that he'd probably be too shitty to contribute at any significant level.
spurraider21
03-09-2013, 02:46 PM
Jag with the bads
freetiago
03-09-2013, 02:46 PM
lol at "becoming"
cant run pick and rolls effectively anymore
throws bad skip passes that get read all the time or he loses his dribble and throws a bad pass
his defense consists of gambling at everything now
the less the ball is in his hands the better
needs to be used off the ball and an occasional pick and roll that results in a drive to the basket
or him finding open shooters or roll man on non skip passes
TheSkeptic
03-09-2013, 02:50 PM
Not even close to a liability. Blair on the defensive end is a liability. Neal's chucking tendencies have been a liability. Manu's been an asset overall. The problem here is that Pop's asking him to do too much. He's not fast enough anymore to keep up with point guards on the one end and because you never know what his ballhandling and passing will be like against faster teams it's not a good idea to have him leading the bench unit without Tiago out there with him to help him turn the corner. *refrains from complaining about the 4 big rotation*
Defensively he may be better guarding the 3 (and maybe letting Leonard guard the 2 unless we're playing the Heat or something), but again that's on Pop as well as the match-ups. Maybe it's time Pop started allowing guys like Diaw to do more playmaking for that second unit. Maybe CoJo should get more burn. Maybe Tiago should go back to coming off the bench since for some reason Pop's been sitting him out entire quarters rather than letting him play with the second unit. I just don't know what the solution is at this stage although I do think something should be done.
exstatic
03-09-2013, 02:55 PM
People forget that he's still trying to play his way back into form. He didn't get much overlap with Tony to ease back in before TP went down with the ankle.
Manu is a rhythm player who isn't in rhythm right now.
Embedded
03-09-2013, 03:01 PM
I disagree with Mr. Ginobili being a liability. Just the opposite, I think he's our X factor. His brilliance still shows, especially with him being the primary rim finisher with Mr. Parker down. No matter what, if I'm working and have the game on, Mr. Ginobili is 'MUST SEE" when he is on the floor. Good gosh, what an unorthodox human being. My favorite highlight is when he rejected a Kevin Durant slam at the rim, I think it was last year? Yes, he shows some rust, but he is playing himself back to shape.
TheSkeptic
03-09-2013, 03:03 PM
no manu is not a liability, like it or not the spurs are gonna need manu to be manu if we want to win it all this year, here is what I think we need to do, have kawhi be our new manu kind of but have manu as an x factor or secret weapon, manu cant be our second best player anymore, of course tony + mvp = tvp is our best player, we need kawhi to be our second best player, and unc man(danny), tiago and tim to be tied for our 3rd best player(s). in other words, we need tvp and kawhistar to be our two best players and manu and tim to kinda back them up like role players but better than role players. also tiago and unc man have to be good also.
We're so screwed it's not even funny if the plan at this stage is for Kawhi to become the #2 during this year's playoffs. Unless "championship" isn't the ceiling we're talking about. Kawhi's a fantastic young player and I love what he's bringing to our team but he's not there yet.
But I do agree with the sentiment of using Kawhi and the others more. Guys like Kawhi and Splitter are needed more to make up the difference between prime TD and Manu and the current versions we're seeing now. Danny Green's streakiness makes him more X factor material because then we're not depending on him shooting well consistently in order to win.
Raven
03-09-2013, 03:04 PM
according to the stats he's been the biggest game changer in the league when he played.. It is true however that he's declining, but he's still an asset imho..
jacuza20
03-09-2013, 03:06 PM
Haha this thread is hilarious. The guy with the highest individual winning percentage is a liability...highly doubt it. I also doubt kawhi can be a manu caliber type player this early in his career. Spurs go nowhere without Manu, as with TP. Everyone always doubts manu, remember his contract year when tony was out? I know he's been a bit inconsistent lately but he will get into the flow of it. He had 15 assists the other night, were going to really need his passing and scoring when TP is out and especially for the playoffs.
HarlemHeat37
03-09-2013, 03:11 PM
He's not a liability, but some of his touches should go to Kawhi and Splitter..
Ginobili's passing offers more opportunity for teammates, to be fair..he's a great spot-up shooter though, he can play off the ball, it wouldn't hurt having him defer a little more..
Many Spurs' fans continue to underestimate Leonard's progression and ability, tbh..he's versatile, his mid-range game is nice, he can post up, he can play off the ball..
Manu is a rhythm player who isn't in rhythm right now.
oh, how I long for the days of old when it were this simple.
TheSkeptic
03-09-2013, 03:29 PM
Yes Leonard's progression has been incredible. But #2 on a championship team? #3 at best. If the Spurs were to somehow beat the odds and meet Miami in the Finals, it'd be because one of Duncan or Manu was able to turn back the clock and put together a run for the ages.
I've enjoyed watching Kawhi grow this year and I think he has what it takes to be something special. In fact, I agree that Leonard should be taking some touches from Manu as it stands right now. But people are out of their minds if they think he's at a stage where he can replace prime or even slightly past prime Manu or TD's production in the post-season this year. That's what it would take for the Spurs to win it all assuming Tony came back without missing a beat.
Kawhi can fill in the gaps for the 3rd person in a worst case scenario and he'd be fine even as a #4 or #5, but he's not going to produce at prime Ginobili level with a good defense keying in on him. Especially not against the Heat.
HarlemHeat37
03-09-2013, 03:37 PM
I've already stated that the Spurs need Duncan to play at near prime level against Miami for any legit shot at a title..
Arguing that Kawhi can't replace prime or near prime Ginobili is a moot point, as current Manu can't replicate prime Ginobili either, tbh..when Ginobil is peaking, he's still better than Kawhi, since he's a much better passer and shooter in addition to his intangibles..however, at this point, Leonard is a more consistent player IMO..
Realistically, the Spurs will require an all-around team effort to win in the playoffs, which may force Pop to realize that Ginobili's role needs to be reduced when he's slumping..
may force Pop to realize that Ginobili's role needs to be reduced when he's slumping..
Basically this. Certain things are being asked of him right now because of Tony's injury, but in general he cant continue to force the issue when things aren't clicking. The Spurs will be better served to have Kawhi or Tiago working their offensive games, then to have Manu forcing his game that isn't working.
HarlemHeat37
03-09-2013, 03:43 PM
I don't think Leonard is a #2 guy on a title team, but I don't see any reason that he can't be a #3, tbh..he's probably the 6th-8th best player at the best position in the NBA..
FuzzyLumpkins
03-09-2013, 03:47 PM
People forget that he's still trying to play his way back into form. He didn't get much overlap with Tony to ease back in before TP went down with the ankle.
Manu is a rhythm player who isn't in rhythm right now.
He need another month to find his rhythm?
ElNono
03-09-2013, 03:47 PM
He's obviously declining (understatement) but I don't think he realizes it. Is he now more of a liability than an asset (especially on defense)?
I'd like to get Nono's take on this. Let's discuss...
Not a liability. Overall, he still gives you more than what he takes away.
ElNono
03-09-2013, 03:48 PM
Basically this. Certain things are being asked of him right now because of Tony's injury, but in general he cant continue to force the issue when things aren't clicking. The Spurs will be better served to have Kawhi or Tiago working their offensive games, then to have Manu forcing his game that isn't working.
I have no problem with this. I thought last night he went hero mode because nobody else was doing shit, and because sometimes it does work for the Spurs. See: Chicago game two days earlier.
I don't think Leonard is a #2 guy on a title team, but I don't see any reason that he can't be a #3, tbh..he's probably the 6th-8th best player at the best position in the NBA..
Yeah, I don't think Leonard will ever be a #2 type guy for a contender, but he can go through stretches where his jumper is falling and that makes it very easy for him to get in the lane. He sees driving lanes well and is good with his spacing. He can be an adequate offensive threat for stretches during the postseason. That to me sounds better than Manu throwing up out-of-rhythm 3's and passing the ball into traffic.
ElNono
03-09-2013, 03:51 PM
I would also add that Manu's biggest asset to the team these days is setting up players for baskets more than volume scoring like in his prime. Which for a team like the Spurs who no longer has a franchise caliber player, it's actually fine.
ElNono
03-09-2013, 03:52 PM
Oh, and yeah, he had a bad game last night. Happens.
Manu became a liability 2-3 years ago, imho.
Plays decent ball for 10-15mil/year. Gets injured. Takes 3-6 weeks to get back in to basketball shape. Plays decent ball. Get's injured. Yada yada, etc etc. Broken record.
Wish we could have made a trade for Jamaal Crawford years ago, tbh.
HarlemHeat37
03-09-2013, 03:56 PM
I would also add that Manu's biggest asset to the team these days is setting up players for baskets more than volume scoring like in his prime. Which for a team like the Spurs who no longer has a franchise caliber player, it's actually fine.
I agree, which is why he should still be a top option when he's in a rhythm..
He's always had stretches where he took bad shots and made poor decisions, but it was always negated by his superstar-level moments..those moments are now few and far between, tbh..
When it's evident that he isn't in a rhythm and he's playing poorly, the Spurs can no longer stubbornly rely on him to run the offense every single play, they need to utilize the other options that were not available in years prior, tbh..
Wish we could have made a trade for Jamaal Crawford years ago, tbh.
lolwut?
HarlemHeat37
03-09-2013, 03:57 PM
Manu became a liability 2-3 years ago, imho.
Plays decent ball for 10-15mil/year. Gets injured. Takes 3-6 weeks to get back in to basketball shape. Plays decent ball. Get's injured. Yada yada, etc etc. Broken record.
Wish we could have made a trade for Jamaal Crawford years ago, tbh.
:lol:lol Jamal Crawford..
Typical Spurs fans holding on to the past. It's sad, really.
ElNono
03-09-2013, 04:01 PM
I agree, which is why he should still be a top option when he's in a rhythm..
He's always had stretches where he took bad shots and made poor decisions, but it was always negated by his superstar-level moments..those moments are now few and far between, tbh..
When it's evident that he isn't in a rhythm and he's playing poorly, the Spurs can no longer stubbornly rely on him to run the offense every single play, they need to utilize the other options that were not available in years prior, tbh..
I'm all for Kawhi having a bigger role, tbh.... but let's not forget that outside the big 3, he's the only one that seemingly can create his own shot, and barely at that. Jack in the post is the other option, but Pop hasn't gone much there for some reason.
In Manu's defense, he also has been put in pretty uncomfortable lineup situations lately. Hard to run absolutely anything when you're playing with 4 other guys that can't create absolutely nothing (ie: Blair, Mills, Green, Bonner, etc). At least when he had Tiago, he could go at the pick and roll non-stop. Pop's rotations, especially on the first half, have been puzzling.
Look, when Manu is on there isn't a better player on the Spurs. He can do things that Tony simply can't do. But when he's off, which has been quite a bit recently, it's like watching JR Smith going up and down the court chucking at will.
ElNono
03-09-2013, 04:03 PM
lol Jamal Crawford...
Typical Spurs fans holding on to the past. It's sad, really.
Thread title?
Blue-Lightning
03-09-2013, 04:04 PM
Yes, the guy who came off the bench for 15 assists, then filled in for Parker with 18 points and 9 assists (in less than 30 minutes), and who was by far the best player we had against the Thunder last year (and Grizzlies the year before that with a broken arm)... yes, that guy is definitely a liability. Somebody resurrect this thread when Manu single handedly wins a playoff game for us this postseason. Idiots...
ElNono
03-09-2013, 04:06 PM
Look, when Manu is on there isn't a better player on the Spurs. He can do things that Tony simply can't do. But when he's off, which has been quite a bit recently, it's like watching JR Smith going up and down the court chucking at will.
That always been Manu... you take the bad with the good because the good normally outweighs the bad... as far as whether that still holds, well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, tbh
TheSkeptic
03-09-2013, 04:06 PM
Then we don't disagree on Leonard being a #3 type contributor HH. The way I see it, Leonard can help make up the difference between this Ginobili and prime Ginobili but the other poster was suggesting that the Spurs should go into the playoffs with Tony and Leonard as the 1-2 if they want to win it all. I don't think it's underestimating Leonard's progression to say we're not winning a championship if that happens.
Leonard will definitely produce if you set him up as a #4 or #5 offensive option and I think he can even slide up into #3a or #3b if TD/Manu start slumping. But this year at least, #3 is his ceiling and I have my doubts about him as a #2 on a title team. If the Spurs have more options at their disposal though, they'll be in a better position to weather the storm if TD/Manu have poor shooting nights since they'll be able to take things game by game. I agree that it'll take a collective effort to win a championship. Which is why I think it's good that Leonard's been more creative off the dribble and it's bad that Splitter hasn't been as involved offensively.
Manu is the only one who can draw as many fouls as he does, so in the POs there's no question he's still very important.
jestersmash
03-09-2013, 04:08 PM
The strange thing with Ginobili is that his athleticism on any given night seems to be really inconsistent.
Anyone remember that eurostep to dunk he had in the lane against kwame brown. Kwame being terrible notwithstanding, I'm sure a lot of fans took notice of his dunk as a sign that his athleticism was slowly returning. He showed terrific lateral movement and decent elevation on that play.
Recently, Ginobili just looks like he's struggling while making long strides towards the rim. And just to be clear, I'm not judging his drives based on whether he scores or not. I'm just looking at his driving ability from more of a qualitative perspective.
He'll look like he's a couple of years younger and more spry for certain games, and he'll look like he's 38 years old during other games.
ElNono
03-09-2013, 04:11 PM
I thought he's been driving well the last two games... had crucial baskets against Chicago on drives and last night he drove on Portland too... his step-back 3pt shooting decision making is another story, tbh
BatManu20
03-09-2013, 04:50 PM
Take Ginobili off this team and see how far we go in the playoffs.
Brunodf
03-09-2013, 05:03 PM
Take Ginobili off this team and see how far we go in the playoffs.
2009
SanDiegoSpursFan
03-09-2013, 05:10 PM
Still a top-5 shooting guard
Calispursfan11
03-09-2013, 05:38 PM
Manu's health has always been an issue but he is not a liability. Come on now. He's Manu Ginobili and don't forget he's only playing 24 MPG this year which automatically makes his stats look worse than the player he is. A liability would be someone like Leandro Barbosa or Dejuanaburger.
maurolv
03-09-2013, 05:43 PM
Some people here seem to be pretty cyclothymic. Manu was the greatest a few days ago and today he's (to some) a liability.
I don't get it.
DejuanorwhatDude
03-09-2013, 06:00 PM
Typical Spurs fans holding on to the past. It's sad, really.
Typical Spurs front office holding on to the past.
DejuanorwhatDude
03-09-2013, 06:04 PM
I don't think he's terrible. But from what I've seen this season he's clearly not what he was even two years ago. I think its funny that people are talking about now that Tonys the best player on the team because if you said that at this point in this season two years ago people would have thought that blasphemous. Manu was the man back then and has taken a step back. He just can't do it anymore; not his fault that he got old. He still has the skills its just becoming less and less frequent that he uses them or uses them properly.
If we are going to win this year it's going to take a brief resurgence of Manu to do it.
DejuanorwhatDude
03-09-2013, 06:05 PM
Nice use of cyclothymic btw.
Manu is still a great player. His problem is he has to stay within his game and not try to do too much. He was playing hero ball yesterday and it resulted in a ton of turnovers and bad three point shots. He should have stuck with the drive. It was working. And not force passes.
When he is on his game, we can see what he did against Chicago, a top notch defensive team. He struggled a little against Batum, but destroyed everyone else that guarded him. His game judgment was just a little off.
Maybe butt kicking will help motivate them for the Thunder game.
Ghjkll
03-09-2013, 07:30 PM
LOL overreaction...Manu had two great games, and then he had a regular one and we lost by 30... Hardly his fault. The entire team collapsed. He is giving the Spurs 12.6 pts /3.5 rbs / 4.6 ass in 45/37/80...only in 23 minutes per game. He is only taking 9 shots, yes, 9. His TS is 588 and his Efg 532...Almost as good as Tony´s. His PER is 21.3 and his WS48 is 0.199. In a per minute impact, Manu contributes as any other All-Star player. Every measurable stat indicates that. Of course, he can´t log heavy minutes anymore on a consistent basis, but the time he is on the court, he produces. Haters gonna gate I guess. If he plays good against OKC, this forum will be full of threads sucking his balls.
jestersmash
03-09-2013, 07:33 PM
Manu is still a great player. His problem is he has to stay within his game and not try to do too much. He was playing hero ball yesterday and it resulted in a ton of turnovers and bad three point shots. He should have stuck with the drive. It was working. And not force passes.
When he is on his game, we can see what he did against Chicago, a top notch defensive team. He struggled a little against Batum, but destroyed everyone else that guarded him. His game judgment was just a little off.
Maybe butt kicking will help motivate them for the Thunder game.
ugh...
Brunodf
03-09-2013, 07:41 PM
LOL overreaction...Manu had two great games, and then he had a regular one and we lost by 30... Hardly his fault. The entire team collapsed. He is giving the Spurs 12.6 pts /3.5 rbs / 4.6 ass in 45/37/80...only in 23 minutes per game. He is only taking 9 shots, yes, 9. His TS is 588 and his Efg 532...Almost as good as Tony´s. His PER is 21.3 and his WS48 is 0.199. In a per minute impact, Manu contributes as any other All-Star player. Every measurable stat indicates that. Of course, he can´t log heavy minutes anymore on a consistent basis, but the time he is on the court, he produces. Haters gonna gate I guess. If he plays good against OKC, this forum will be full of threads sucking his balls.
Can't? Looked fine in the Olympics
jestersmash
03-09-2013, 07:53 PM
can we all just have another thread ranking the spurs players by how good you think they are and get it over with
1. Duncan
2. Parker
3. Manu
4. Kawhi
5. Danny
6. Splitter
7. SJax
8. Diaw
9. CJoseph
10. Choo Choo
11. Patty
12. Bonner
13. Nando
14. Blair
15. Baynes
:lmao
I guess some of you guys didn't watch the Chicago game. Off night for the whole team and Blazers hit every shot. Time to take some lithium.
dunkman
03-09-2013, 08:20 PM
No, he's still good. Not worth $14M, though.
Slippy
03-09-2013, 08:29 PM
At times on defense he's bit of a liability. More-so when he gambling or trying to keep up with quicker player. Against the blazers it really showed.
On offense hardly at all. If anything it's looking very positive. The problem for Manu is that his turnvovers get amplified because they are of the un-forced and flashy kind. He still not 100 percent,rhythm and gametime is a big part of it for Manu. If he remains healthy, he will be back to his best.
Mouth is Bleeding
03-09-2013, 08:40 PM
LOL overreaction...Manu had two great games, and then he had a regular one and we lost by 30... Hardly his fault. The entire team collapsed. He is giving the Spurs 12.6 pts /3.5 rbs / 4.6 ass in 45/37/80...only in 23 minutes per game. He is only taking 9 shots, yes, 9. His TS is 588 and his Efg 532...Almost as good as Tony´s. His PER is 21.3 and his WS48 is 0.199. In a per minute impact, Manu contributes as any other All-Star player. Every measurable stat indicates that. Of course, he can´t log heavy minutes anymore on a consistent basis, but the time he is on the court, he produces. Haters gonna gate I guess. If he plays good against OKC, this forum will be full of threads sucking his balls.
I'm a little stunned here. Someone made a non-moronic post itt.
So many mouthbreathers.
Grit and Grind
03-09-2013, 08:46 PM
I wouldn't want him on my roster ... Rudy Gay esque contract
Brunodf
03-09-2013, 08:58 PM
green > splitter
there i said it
green started more games, plays more minutes, scores more points (and is the best 3pt shooter on the team this year statistically)
:lmao:troll
Splitter is better passer/smarter/most effective/better defender
Budkin
03-09-2013, 09:28 PM
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
therealtruth
03-09-2013, 09:57 PM
Manu is the only one who can draw as many fouls as he does, so in the POs there's no question he's still very important.
That's why he's such a good closer in the playoffs.
Gagnrath
03-09-2013, 10:36 PM
I guess he seems a little over payed to me for the amount he actually plays now. That said I understand why he has that contract due to his stats per game and history with the spurs.
Bruno
03-09-2013, 10:54 PM
I'm not that interested in what Ginobili do in the regular season. At his age and with all his injuries, he isn't well suited for these endless part of the season.
What truly matter is what he will do in the playoffs. Last season he wasn't good in the playoffs, so we will see if he is able to raise his level this year. Postseason will almost solely determine how done Manu is and how big is next contract should be.
Manu went from being a negative defender last season to the best man defender on the team this season.
skulls138
03-10-2013, 01:39 AM
If Manu is a liability then the whole team is a liability because without him at his best, we go nowhere. Manu at his best is un-gameplanable for the opposing team. Manu is basically magic when he's on.
Sean Cagney
03-10-2013, 02:01 AM
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Depends on which one shows up lol, the one who throws passes into the cot damn crowd or the one making plays!!!!!! Whichever one shows up. The one launching horrible stepback threes and misses them BADLY late or the one who is efficient and 3-5 threes, depends again on which one shows up.
BatManu20
03-10-2013, 04:15 AM
If Manu is a liability then the whole team is a liability because without him at his best, we go nowhere. Manu at his best is un-gameplanable for the opposing team. Manu is basically magic when he's on.
This. Fans on these boards are so dramatic. You take Manu off this team and we're instantly a lot worse. A lot.. People take our great players for granted. Can't wait to see these fans in 5 years..
elemento
03-10-2013, 08:31 AM
No he is not a liability at all. We simply have to deal with the fact that he isn't Super Manu anymore.
Darkwaters
03-10-2013, 09:46 AM
How quickly we forget the Chicago game if we really think hes a liability.
Gagnrath
03-10-2013, 10:22 AM
No he is not a liability at all. We simply have to deal with the fact that he isn't Super Manu anymore.
Problem is that he is still getting paid like Super Manu, that said there were a few years when he wasn't being paid like that, and he was a bad bad man on the basketball court. Manu this year isn't a 14,000,000 player and he wasn't last year either this year he is a 7/8,000,000 and being able to have that extra cash to upgrade a little at a couple of positions would be a great thing. Its not something that really could have been foreseen really, manu was established as being very very good in europe when he came over it simply remained to be seen how things translated so he was granted a somewhat low contract. When this one was signed it was slightly overvalued due to him being undervalued before and also was a little bit of an increased risk because he was likely to start declining during it as an older player.
rascal
03-10-2013, 10:45 AM
Manu has been a liability for the last 6 years. There was a 4 year stretch in the playoffs when he was hurt and cost the team and now he is no longer worth his contract.
DPG21920
03-10-2013, 11:55 AM
oh he's smarter and most effective. do you have IQ or wunderlich test results?
Green averages more assists and more steals, and fouls less
So this is that basketball discussion I've been hearing about
elemento
03-10-2013, 12:38 PM
Problem is that he is still getting paid like Super Manu, that said there were a few years when he wasn't being paid like that, and he was a bad bad man on the basketball court. Manu this year isn't a 14,000,000 player and he wasn't last year either this year he is a 7/8,000,000 and being able to have that extra cash to upgrade a little at a couple of positions would be a great thing. Its not something that really could have been foreseen really, manu was established as being very very good in europe when he came over it simply remained to be seen how things translated so he was granted a somewhat low contract. When this one was signed it was slightly overvalued due to him being undervalued before and also was a little bit of an increased risk because he was likely to start declining during it as an older player.
It happens when stars get their last big contracts. Timmy @ 10m/year is a bargain. We were not saying the same thing when Timmy was getting 20m/year in the past 2 years.
Even if we agree that Manu is not worth 14m/year now, it's not causing SA any problems. SA is below the lux tax and Manu is not a long-term contract, he is an expiring. If Manu had an Amare-type of contract, I would agree that SA would have a problem, but not in this case. As you mentioned, Manu was underpaid for most part of his career. Plus, We all know that he will take a big paycut after this season, much like Timmy.
People forget how Manu was San Antonio's 1st option back in 11 and was putting 17/5/4 on 58%TS in the RS and was leading SA in the playoffs putting 20/4/4 with a broken arm.
If I could grade a liability including players and the staff, I would rank Pop's irrational moves and rotations at the top of the list and It wouldn't even be close tbh.
Manu was not the one putting a starting lineup of Parker/Roger Mason Jr/Findog's corpse/Matt Bonner/Duncan in the playoffs while the Mavs was taking a dump on us.
Manu was not the one giving Bonner a pass (and a new contract) for his playoffs failures since 08.
Manu was not the one giving zero minutes to Splitter in 11 and out of nowhere put him on the fire when Z-Bo/Gasol/Arthur were shitting on SAS entire front-court. The same thing is going on with Baynes this season.
I could go on...
Bottom line is.: I've seen fans trashing Manu, Parker even Timmy in the last few years, but not Pop's irrational moves. If people want to blame Parker, Timmy or Manu, they should think about it because there's someone else at the top of the list.
emanueldavidginobili
03-10-2013, 01:30 PM
Yes, the guy who came off the bench for 15 assists, then filled in for Parker with 18 points and 9 assists (in less than 30 minutes), and who was by far the best player we had against the Thunder last year (and Grizzlies the year before that with a broken arm)... yes, that guy is definitely a liability. Somebody resurrect this thread when Manu single handedly wins a playoff game for us this postseason. Idiots...
hater
03-10-2013, 02:06 PM
He's a euro legend playing ind nba at this point of his career. You can tell his brain works 1000mph but his body is barely responding. Hes on a level of a spanoulis at this point.
Another good comparison is jeremy lin. Theres something special somewhere there. But its trapped inside a weak slow fragile body
temujin
03-10-2013, 02:48 PM
A liability that just set his career high for assists at 36 years of age.
emanueldavidginobili
03-10-2013, 04:05 PM
You guys are sad, Manu Ginobili a liability? Im not even going to answer that question...ridiculous.
Doctor J
03-11-2013, 04:18 AM
I don't think he's terrible. But from what I've seen this season he's clearly not what he was even two years ago. I think its funny that people are talking about now that Tonys the best player on the team because if you said that at this point in this season two years ago people would have thought that blasphemous. Manu was the man back then and has taken a step back. He just can't do it anymore; not his fault that he got old. He still has the skills its just becoming less and less frequent that he uses them or uses them properly.
If we are going to win this year it's going to take a brief resurgence of Manu to do it.
This! :toast
So this is that basketball discussion I've been hearing about
:lol
Manu's not as great as he was because he can't play starter's minutes anymore, silly people.
TMTTRIO
03-11-2013, 10:53 AM
To be fair Manu played well the last few games and people still expect him to take over all these games. People who still want him to be the old Manu and take all these games over are going to be dissapointed. Manu's at the point of his career where he can still take over every once in a while but he's more of a role player now. As long as he can work on not turning the ball over as much and finding ways to help I'll be happy.
Spurs7794
03-11-2013, 11:36 AM
I thought he's been driving well the last two games... had crucial baskets against Chicago on drives and last night he drove on Portland too... his step-back 3pt shooting decision making is another story, tbh
I was just going to mention this...he needs to cut that step back three out of his arsenal. It used to be his go-to move but he either can't explode backwards like he used to or doesn't have the lift like he once did. That and its probably been scouted to death.
DontStopBelieving
03-11-2013, 12:26 PM
No, he isn't.
HarlemHeat37
03-11-2013, 09:33 PM
Tonight is a good example of the point that Jag and I were making in this thread, tbh..
Ginobili wasn't a liability tonight, but the Spurs had success from distributing touches between Splitter and Leonard, rather than forcing Ginobili to run the offense on every play as they did in prior seasons..
Beaverfuzz
03-11-2013, 09:39 PM
But there have been plenty of sloppy passes from Manu the past few months that have been very uncharacteristic of Manu. That and the FT percentage makes me believe that he's hurting somewhere or Father Time is whipping his ass with the white man's stick.
pgardn
03-11-2013, 09:46 PM
I am scared for Manu's life.
Pop's face is going to explode on him. Manu will take old man jaw shrapnel in the face.
superjames1992
03-11-2013, 09:48 PM
He's playing out of position, basically having to run the point, especially when Popsickle sat Cojo in the 4th quarter. When Neal Hero is out there, Manu is basically running the point, too.
hater
03-11-2013, 09:53 PM
No, he isn't.
:lmao
superjames1992
03-11-2013, 10:04 PM
2 things coach pops loves
1-wine
2-playing manu at pg
Indeed. I love Manu, but he shouldn't play PG. Too many turnovers.
He looked uncomfortable being on the floor in the 4th and not being the creator and focal point of the offense. So what did he do? He tried to force himself into the offense and went full Roger Mason Jr. at point guard. He needs to let the O come to him.
SpurPadre
03-11-2013, 10:08 PM
People forget that he's still trying to play his way back into form. He didn't get much overlap with Tony to ease back in before TP went down with the ankle.
Manu is a rhythm player who isn't in rhythm right now.
THIS X1000. The real liability, aside from Bonner of course, is Motherchucking Neal.
ElNono
03-11-2013, 10:08 PM
I agree he struggled in the 4th tonight... Thabo is a good defender though. Obviously matchups will change in the postseason with Tony back...
SpurPadre
03-11-2013, 10:10 PM
I agree he struggled in the 4th tonight... Thabo is a good defender though. Obviously matchups will change in the postseason with Tony back...
Well, what's our adjustment if Sefolosha wipes his ass with TP's face again?
TMTTRIO
03-11-2013, 10:11 PM
Well I really hope he decides that his family is more important and decides to retire at the end of the season before he gets any worse.
Well, what's our adjustment if Sefolosha wipes his ass with TP's face again?
Oh look, it's GNSF
ElNono
03-11-2013, 10:12 PM
Well, what's our adjustment if Sefolosha wipes his ass with TP's face again?
I thought our bench played much better... Collison didn't do much and Tiago pretty much owned him, and don't underestimate what Jack brought to the table on D...
Plus it helped Fisher and Kevin Martin sucked in the 2nd half...
SpurPadre
03-11-2013, 10:16 PM
Oh look, it's GNSF
Where do you get GNSF from? I've been here for over 2 years and Spurs fan for over 20 years.
freetiago
03-11-2013, 10:19 PM
Lol at everyone hating on Neal
Ginobili was the one trying to throw away the game
Neal led the team in assists and he baited westbrook into taking 27 shots
he won the game for us tonight
SpurPadre
03-11-2013, 10:23 PM
Lol at everyone hating on Neal
Ginobili was the one trying to throw away the game
Neal led the team in assists and he baited westbrook into taking 27 shots
he won the game for us tonight
Neal leading the team in assists for one game is a HUGE outlier...unless Pop has re-programmed him.
SpurPadre
03-11-2013, 10:24 PM
Oh look, it's GNSF
Besides, you look like the GNSF with a Jazz player as your avatar.
hater
03-11-2013, 10:26 PM
Besides, you look like the GNSF with a Jazz player as your avatar.
:lol
DAF86
03-11-2013, 10:45 PM
Of course Manu isn't a liability but the Spurs would benefit of having Manu playing off the ball a bit more and giving Leonard a couple more playmaking oportunities per game.
tbh I always figured Manu would be effective even when he declined physically because of his vision and passing ability, but his passes have been getting stolen/deflected alot this season...maybe passing isnt as age-proof as one would believe. :depressed
Bruno
03-12-2013, 02:03 AM
The whole "Manu playing out of position" and "Manu having too much the ball in his hands" is just BS. Manu has jsut had a bad game against OKC and made some bonehead plays that have little to do with his role.
therealtruth
03-12-2013, 03:44 AM
tbh I always figured Manu would be effective even when he declined physically because of his vision and passing ability, but his passes have been getting stolen/deflected alot this season...maybe passing isnt as age-proof as one would believe. :depressed
He killed us against OKC with his passes. I think he needs more minutes to improve the timing on his passes.
chasky
03-12-2013, 04:49 PM
Short memory guys:
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS.HTM
ALVAREZ6
03-12-2013, 05:14 PM
Obviously his body's capabilities have declined dramatically, but he's making a lot of bonehead plays (always has) that he shouldn't because it's not outweighed by any offensive dominance anymore. Something seems to not be right with his confidence, it's showing in his passing and FT%. He probably just needs more time into regular minutes, I would guess he will be playing better basketball come playoff time.
I am scared for Manu's life.
Pop's face is going to explode on him. Manu will take old man jaw shrapnel in the face.
the stare down was classic. manu's arms in the air gesticulation was probably an involuntary reflex to the stare down.
SenorSpur
03-12-2013, 08:53 PM
I don't think he's terrible. But from what I've seen this season he's clearly not what he was even two years ago. I think its funny that people are talking about now that Tonys the best player on the team because if you said that at this point in this season two years ago people would have thought that blasphemous. Manu was the man back then and has taken a step back. He just can't do it anymore; not his fault that he got old. He still has the skills its just becoming less and less frequent that he uses them or uses them properly.
If we are going to win this year it's going to take a brief resurgence of Manu to do it.
:toast
I would also add that he was certainly bordering on being a liability in the waning moments of the recent OKC game. When your team is in a situation where you need to run clock to close out the game, against a rival opponent, meanwhile your seasoned veteran is chucking ill-advised 3-pt shots and throwing errant passes that lead to turnovers, you are flirting with being a liability to your team. There is just no other way to phrase it. There's also no excuse for it. While it didn't affect the outcome of the game, it did piss off Pop - and rightfully so. It's very surprising because Manu has played this game long enough to know better. It's yet another example of Manu sometimes making bone-head decisions during crucial times.
Still, he's one of the chief playmakers on this team. As an older player, it's impossible to expect him to bring it every night, which means he's got to curb his desire to engage in the Kobe Bryant-esque hero ball. He's got more help now. Still, I agree with others who've said that a resurgence in his game will be necessary if the Spurs are going to have any chance of winning it all this year.
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