Kevin Durant....

[TrueSpursFan]

Pretty much gave no credit to Kawhi and Jackson's defense on him for only "allowing" him 13 shots tonight. He said he can pretty much get any shot he wants and get to any spot on the court he wants. Their defense had nothing to do with his shot attempts. He said he could take 30 attempts if he wanted. What do you guys think?

[TheSkeptic]

He's salty but to an extent he's right. I thought Westbrook was actually a big part of the reason why he was held to 13 shot attempts.

[RD2191]

I think he's a fagget who is a product of the refs

[Trainwreck2100]

He said he can shoot any shots he wants, and he's right

[freetiago]

spurfan being sensitive as always
and hes right for the most part
he gets anywhere he wants vs SA
he really took around 17-18 shots if you include free throws

his problems will always be Russel Westbrook and his passiveness

[HarlemHeat37]

I've always said there are only 2 guys that can dominate Durant, tbh..

1- Lebron James
2- Russell Westbrook

Durant is a beta cuckold, tbh..he's by far the 2nd best player in the NBA, but he's a pussy that defers to Westbrook and doesn't wash his face..

[Ice009]

Tim Duncan could have taken 30 shots a game in his prime too, but he never went on about it after big losses.

Big loser line there from Durant. I haven't watched many Thunder games this season as I CANNOT stand them anymore, but after tonight's game, again, he is darn lucky the refs get him to line to keep up his scoring average.

[NASpurs]

*reads post*
*reads username*

Oy vey.

[pgardn]

Pretty much gave no credit to Kawhi and Jackson's defense on him for only "allowing" him 13 shots tonight. He said he can pretty much get any shot he wants and get to any spot on the court he wants. Their defense had nothing to do with his shot attempts. He said he could take 30 attempts if he wanted. What do you guys think?


I think he has become a bit of a skinny butthole. He is still a good kid, but the NBA macho smack talk has infected him a bit. I read somewhere he had been T-d up a whole lot more this year. So he is losing his acne...

[TrueSpursFan]

He also stated "Spurs, they do such a great job at making me see guys and making me pass the ball". Couldn't understand what he meant there. Do the spurs leave guys deliberately open for him to pass to or pressure him to pass the ball.

[racm]

I think he has become a bit of a skinny butthole. He is still a good kid, but the NBA macho smack talk has infected him a bit. I read somewhere he had been T-d up a whole lot more this year. So he is losing his acne...

Nike's #KDIsNotNice campaign too.

[eDizzle20]

KD probably couldn't get 30 shot attempts because Westbrook would be taking them. The other reason KD probably couldn't get 30 shot attempts is because he gets every foul call under the sun. Don't get me wrong, the guy is the 2nd best player in the league and he made some amazing shots tonight and drew some crafty fouls. Sometimes it's so tough watching the Thunder because of the ridiculous calls he gets in his favor. KD gets calls that LBJ doesn't even get.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

He sounded like a little bitch tbh.

[spurraider21]

yes and no. he probably could have taken more shots if he wanted, but wanted to get team involved. westbrook denied him more shots than our defense did tbh. a lot of that could be a product of kawhi/jax playing good ball denial and defense keying on him, forcing him to pass more

[HarlemHeat37]

I think he has become a bit of a skinny butthole. He is still a good kid, but the NBA macho smack talk has infected him a bit. I read somewhere he had been T-d up a whole lot more this year. So he is losing his acne...

He leads the league in technicals IIRC..

I don't blame him for that, though..he receives the most preferential treatment in NBA history IMO..he is now accustomed to rare treatment from the officials, thus leading to excessive complaining when the refs unexpectedly don't reach the quota, tbh..

He's the most pompous player in the NBA, next to VINO..

[TrueSpursFan]

I wasn't being sensitive at all. I was asking for everyone's opinion on whether Jack an Kawhi did a good job defensively on him and how much of his shot attempts were really a result of their defense. Or whether he just felt other guys were open and a better position to score. I think he SHOULD have taken 30 attempts, maybe then they could have won.

[Chinook]

He also stated "Spurs, they do such a great job at making me see guys and making me pass the ball". Couldn't understand what he meant there. Do the spurs leave guys deliberately open for him to pass to or pressure him to pass the ball.

I think he means seeing the defense rotating, which forces him to give it up. He could also mean that the Spurs make him see openings that aren't there, which may have played a part in him five turnovers tonight.

[lefty]

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[SpurPadre]

This whole "Wesbrook hurts KD" argument is overrated, tbh. They need the element he brings where you don't know who's going to play hero ball between two as it makes their game less predictable as opposed to how the Lakers' philosophy is usually, "Hey, let's let Kobe take his 50 shots so he can get at least 20 points and see if we win." With the Thunder, you have to prepare for either one of their Big two doing that and you'd think that would be harder to gameplan against.

[Trainwreck2100]

This whole "Wesbrook hurts KD" argument is overrated, tbh. They need the element he brings where you don't know who's going to play hero ball between two as it makes their game less predictable as opposed to how the Lakers' philosophy is usually, "Hey, let's let Kobe take his 50 shots so he can get at least 20 points and see if we win." With the Thunder, you have to prepare for either one of their Big two doing that and you'd think that would be harder to gameplan against.

No it's not overrated there's a reason they went away from their point guard and had Harden handle the ball at the end.

[SpurPadre]

No it's not overrated there's a reason they went away from their point guard and had Harden handle the ball at the end.

It is overrated. There is a reason they're the #2 seed without Harden back and that he keeps making AS appearances.

[cd98]

Durrant should be pissed at Westbrook. Durrant was on fire in the first half and he only got six shots off. He should have shot double that. Meanwhile Westbrook was off and took twice as many.

Spurs played good defense but the best scorer in the league knows how to get the ball. But Weatbrook was too busy trying to show that he is better than the second string point guards that were guarding him.

[skulls138]

I wasn't being sensitive at all. I was asking for everyone's opinion on whether Jack an Kawhi did a good job defensively on him and how much of his shot attempts were really a result of their defense. Or whether he just felt other guys were open and a better position to score. I think he SHOULD have taken 30 attempts, maybe then they could have won.

It seems like they did but Im not sure honestly, just know the results. The big thing is that this game was an important game for both teams and KD didnt do enough. If it was good defense, great. If it was bad offense, why was it bad offense on such a big game. Either way, Im smiling.

[BatManu20]

Durant's great, and to an extent he's right. But he relies a lot on FT's to get his points. If the refs don't screw us, we can beat OKC in a 7 game series. That's a big "if" though..

[shorttotry]

Whos's kidding? With the help of the refs, KD is absolutely the best player in the league!

[scanry]

I've always said there are only 2 guys that can dominate Durant, tbh..

1- Lebron James
2- Russell Westbrook

Durant is a beta cuckold, tbh..he's by far the 2nd best player in the NBA, but he's a pussy that defers to Westbrook and doesn't wash his face..

That's problem with Durant tbh. Instead of raising his game, he's handing over the reigns to Westbrook on a platter.

[TheGoldStandard]

1 man can't beat a team but the refs sure tried to make that happen tonight when they were ISOing Durant in the 4th. Westbrook plays hero pal + 10 the guy is always looking for his shot first above all else.

[TD 21]

He leads the league in technicals IIRC..

I don't blame him for that, though..he receives the most preferential treatment in NBA history IMO..he is now accustomed to rare treatment from the officials, thus leading to excessive complaining when the refs unexpectedly don't reach the quota, tbh..

He's the most pompous player in the NBA, next to VINO..

I agree with your other comments about him, but I don't know about this. There's no question he's become a phony (unless his persona his first five years was phony; which I doubt, though I do think it was a slight put on), sickening puke, but 2nd highest on that list is overstating it.

[DesertSpur50]

All he said was he could chunk up 30 shot attempts if he wanted and he can. A defender can't really stop someone from shot jacking. He also said that Kawhi and Jack were great defenders, just not the reason he took only thirteen shots. I had no problem with what he said. KD is trying to be too much like Lebron trying to make plays for others and trying to make the right plays, he just doesn't do it as well as Lebron. With Lebron it is almost instinctual whereas KD forces the issue outside the flow of the game.

[Gagnrath]

The Thunder couldn't afford a top notch team around paying 3 young stars. Keeping Durant as a completely irreplaceable talent was a no-brainer but deciding between Westbrook and Harden had to be keeping the front office up at night. It frankly came down to two things, Westbrook being the slightly more freakish athlete at his position and Harden having a poor showing in the finals last year.


I personally think they made the wrong choice. Harden has bloomed in Houston though there isn't a good enough team around him to hope to be competitors, while Westbrook's questionable mentality is rubbing off on the rest of the thunder. It is also far easier to build around a facilitating team oriented SG than a ball dominating PG especially when you allready have a star who needs touches, in Durant. Harden also appeared far more willing to play Pippen to Durants Jordan (yeah I know the position are reversed but still) than Westbrook is willing to facilitate the spotlight being on someone else. If they would have added a hard defending facilitator in place of Westbrook the thunder would be a beloved run away story for the next few years in the league as it is, Westbrook is going to pull Durant down the ego path to the darkside and that team will become annoying second place bitches for the next half decade (though this year will be the Big 3's swan song).

[Splits]

Physically and athletically, he is a freak.

Mentally, he is extremely passive and someone of a midget.

This kind of talk after this kind of loss, where he scores more points on less than 1/2 the shots than his chucking point guard, tells me he doesn't know how to demand the ball and take over when necessary. I'm not saying go 6/24 in game 7 of the finals, but dude needs to grow a pair and put that little chimp-teammate in his place if he ever wants to ring.

[Gagnrath]

Physically and athletically, he is a freak.

Mentally, he is extremely passive and someone of a midget.

This kind of talk after this kind of loss, where he scores more points on less than 1/2 the shots than his chucking point guard, tells me he doesn't know how to demand the ball and take over when necessary. I'm not saying go 6/24 in game 7 of the finals, but dude needs to grow a pair and put that little chimp-teammate in his place if he ever wants to ring.


The problem with that is Westbrook in his own mind is the love child combination of Bryant and Maravich. He deigns to share the ball mainly to get his assists and to show off his passing abilities. To take a team away from him throws him into a sulk where he does little and acts all prima donna. There is no putting him in his proper place till he gets his own head screwed on straight, which will happen in 3 or 4 years as he matures or may never happen at all. This is the sad problem of Westbrick.

[Splits]

The problem with that is Westbrook in his own mind is the love child combination of Bryant and Maravich. He deigns to share the ball mainly to get his assists and to show off his passing abilities. To take a team away from him throws him into a sulk where he does little and acts all prima donna. There is no putting him in his proper place till he gets his own head screwed on straight, which will happen in 3 or 4 years as he matures or may never happen at all. This is the sad problem of Westbrick.

Don't disagree but look what Kobe has done to Dwight this year.

All the more reason they should have kept Harden and shipped out chimpy-mc-chucks-alot in they determined they couldn't keep all three.

[tmtcsc]

and doesn't wash his face..

:lmao

[therealtruth]

The Thunder couldn't afford a top notch team around paying 3 young stars. Keeping Durant as a completely irreplaceable talent was a no-brainer but deciding between Westbrook and Harden had to be keeping the front office up at night. It frankly came down to two things, Westbrook being the slightly more freakish athlete at his position and Harden having a poor showing in the finals last year.


I personally think they made the wrong choice. Harden has bloomed in Houston though there isn't a good enough team around him to hope to be competitors, while Westbrook's questionable mentality is rubbing off on the rest of the thunder. It is also far easier to build around a facilitating team oriented SG than a ball dominating PG especially when you allready have a star who needs touches, in Durant. Harden also appeared far more willing to play Pippen to Durants Jordan (yeah I know the position are reversed but still) than Westbrook is willing to facilitate the spotlight being on someone else. If they would have added a hard defending facilitator in place of Westbrook the thunder would be a beloved run away story for the next few years in the league as it is, Westbrook is going to pull Durant down the ego path to the darkside and that team will become annoying second place bitches for the next half decade (though this year will be the Big 3's swan song).

I think the Thunder would trade Harden for Westbrook. If Westbrook is with Houston I am not sure they would be in playoff contention.

[Obstructed_View]

The insult in that quote wasn't directed at the Spurs' defense, it was directed at the Thunder's point guard. If six of Westbrook's shot attempts go to Durant instead this is a completely different game.

[quentin_compson]

He is right when he says he can get any shot he wants. Dude is a crazy capable scorer. If Westbrook ever learns to only take over when it is really needed, the Thunder will be a much better team.

On a side note, in the third quarter there were a couple of possessions when the Thunder got a good defensive switch out of the Spurs that left Neal guarding Durant. But I don't think they scored once off of that - mainly because Durant didn't get the ball often enough. That's the kind of thing OKC will have to do better, and in part it is also on KD to demand the ball more.

[InK]

If anything Durant's ego is to small. Russell should have been dealt with long ago, imagine a guy on the Lakers, would Kobe tolerate someone but himself jacking up the shots that Russell likes do when the game is on the line? I don't think so. But Durant, while obviously not happy about the situation, keeps tolerating it and not really addressing it.

[Strategic]

He said he was trying to get his team involved. Kind of a cockeyed way of blaming his teammates for the outcome tbh.

[Seventyniner]

Another shot from the "I only look at shot attempts" crowd...smh.

Durant uses 29.7% of his team's possessions this season, and used 26.5% last night.

[venitian navigator]

I frankly don't undestand the max salary mentality by players (and their agents) of teams that have the chance to be contenders.
In this regard, the right way is the one that Miami players have already shown : you take a little less for having the chance to build the best team that's possible.
Neither Lebron nor Wade nor Bosh take the max, and all three of them could have had it from any other team.
The first wrong decision has been made by Durant...if he gave the example by taking less, Westbrook and Harden could have made the same...and OKC could have been in the finals for a decade, with more than a good chance to win it all (and winning is beneficial for players, that can make more money with personal sponsors).

[Chinook]

Another shot from the "I only look at shot attempts" crowd...smh.

Durant uses 29.7% of his team's possessions this season, and used 26.5% last night.

Agreed.

Incidentally, I've always hated the idea of not counting shooting fouls as shot attempts. I understand that it wouldn't be fair to add a shot missed from a bad foul into the shooting percentages, but I've always found it disingenuous to read things like, "He scored 20 points off only 15 shots," only to look at the stat sheet and see a 5-15 night with 10 free throws. It's like people pretend that the player didn't use the possession just because he was fouled at the end.

[Seventyniner]

Agreed.

Incidentally, I've always hated the idea of not counting shooting fouls as shot attempts. I understand that it wouldn't be fair to add a shot missed from a bad foul into the shooting percentages, but I've always found it disingenuous to read things like, "He scored 20 points off only 15 shots," only to look at the stat sheet and see a 5-15 night with 10 free throws. It's like people pretend that the player didn't use the possession just because he was fouled at the end.

Two other points:

1) You can get a rough estimate of possessions used as FGA + 0.44*FTA + TO; sometimes ORB is subtracted to reward players who keep possessions alive. There are three situations where a player can get a "free" free throw (a FTA without using a possession): technical fouls, the third shot of a three-shot foul, and an and-1. Myself, I just count 1 FTA as "free" if a player has an odd number of FTA, and 0 or 2 as "free" (depending on who it is and how many FTA they had) if it's an even number. Then divide the rest by two rather than doing 0.44*FTA. This method always comes out as an integer.
2) There should be some value assigned to being able to draw non-shooting fouls, but it's impossible to tease out of the box score.

[Embedded]

For the first time I think I saw Kevin Durant lose his composure due to being well defended. The Spurs seemed to force the offense to run through Westbrick and the strategy worked. Westbrick never met a shot he didn't like - especially that half court shot with .18 to go on the shot clock. WTF?!?!? Never ever seen that before.

[Obstructed_View]

If anything Durant's ego is to small. Russell should have been dealt with long ago, imagine a guy on the Lakers, would Kobe tolerate someone but himself jacking up the shots that Russell likes do when the game is on the line? I don't think so. But Durant, while obviously not happy about the situation, keeps tolerating it and not really addressing it.

Since Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Devean George, Lamar Odom and Ron Artest have all come up big in the clutch, especially in the playoffs, to win rings for Kobe, I'd say he's tolerated it. The question is if Kobe would tolerate someone having more shot attempts than he does during nationally-televised regular season games, and that's a no. Kobe would refuse to come out of the locker room at halftime before he'd allow that.

[Obstructed_View]

Agreed.

Incidentally, I've always hated the idea of not counting shooting fouls as shot attempts. I understand that it wouldn't be fair to add a shot missed from a bad foul into the shooting percentages, but I've always found it disingenuous to read things like, "He scored 20 points off only 15 shots," only to look at the stat sheet and see a 5-15 night with 10 free throws. It's like people pretend that the player didn't use the possession just because he was fouled at the end.

Here's a better way to look at it; we'll call it "effective field goal percentage". It's simply points per shot attempt, which takes free throws into account, and values a player's ability to draw a shooting foul over a player who, say, throws up a half court shot in anticipation of a foul or doesn't bother to set up the best scorer in the league in favor of his own shot.

Last night, Westbrook averaged just over .9 points per shot attempt, Durant averaged 2.0 points per shot attempt. If Durant had six shots that didn't count because he was fouled, he still had eight fewer shot attempts than Westbrook. I'm struggling to find a stat that disproves how fucking ridiculous that is.

[Chinook]

Two other points:

1) You can get a rough estimate of possessions used as FGA + 0.44*FTA + TO; sometimes ORB is subtracted to reward players who keep possessions alive. There are three situations where a player can get a "free" free throw (a FTA without using a possession): technical fouls, the third shot of a three-shot foul, and an and-1. Myself, I just count 1 FTA as "free" if a player has an odd number of FTA, and 0 or 2 as "free" (depending on who it is and how many FTA they had) if it's an even number. Then divide the rest by two rather than doing 0.44*FTA. This method always comes out as an integer.
2) There should be some value assigned to being able to draw non-shooting fouls, but it's impossible to tease out of the box score.

Yes, I pretty much do the same thing when looking at box scores. My issue isn't so much with the math behind this as it is with the perception. A player that's taking a lot of foul shots is still using possessions that could go to someone else. Possessions should always be considered above just FGA.

[Chinook]

Here's a better way to look at it; we'll call it "effective field goal percentage". It's simply points per shot attempt, which takes free throws into account, and values a player's ability to draw a shooting foul over a player who, say, throws up a half court shot in anticipation of a foul or doesn't bother to set up the best scorer in the league in favor of his own shot.

Last night, Westbrook averaged just over .9 points per shot attempt, Durant averaged 2.0 points per shot attempt. If Durant had six shots that didn't count because he was fouled, he still had eight fewer shot attempts than Westbrook. I'm struggling to find a stat that disproves how fucking ridiculous that is.

It's true that Westbrook took more shots than Durant. But as I said in the post below this one, I'm more annoyed at the perception of efficiency being based on FGA and not on possessions used and TS%.

[TheGoldStandard]

Kevin Durant will continue to be passive with guys like Westbrook because he doesn't want to stir trouble but its kind of funny to see him yell at Ibaka for not setting the screen.

[Budkin]

I still can't believe they traded away Harden. With the way he's blossomed this year they would be more unstoppable than Miami is right now.

[Obstructed_View]

It's true that Westbrook took more shots than Durant. But as I said in the post below this one, I'm more annoyed at the perception of efficiency being based on FGA and not on possessions used and TS%.

Explain some metric to me where what Westbrook did was remotely efficient. He took shots without ball movement, he went one on one, or one on two, he missed them, he didn't draw fouls, and he took shots away from one of the best players in the sport.

Also, when Durant shoots 90 percent from the free throw line, I'm unsure why you'd think that it would be better if his possessions went "to someone else". He's Kevin Durant, for god's sake.

[Spur|n|Austin]

I think he's a fagget who is a product of the refs

You think he's a misspelled homosexual?

[spursfan09]

If only there was pg out there Kevin Durant could team up with who wasn't at all like Westbrook. One who knows how to effectively and efficently run the offense and take over when called upon. One who doesn't have a problem deferring to a teammate because he has no ego. One who openly confesses that he has no problem being under ther radar as long as they playing for a championship and winning them.

[Budkin]

Wonder when the Lakers are gonna get him?

[Obstructed_View]

Physically and athletically, he is a freak.

Mentally, he is extremely passive and someone of a midget.

This kind of talk after this kind of loss, where he scores more points on less than 1/2 the shots than his chucking point guard, tells me he doesn't know how to demand the ball and take over when necessary. I'm not saying go 6/24 in game 7 of the finals, but dude needs to grow a pair and put that little chimp-teammate in his place if he ever wants to ring.

He was answering a question, so you probably need to know what the question was before judging what he's doing. Also, management picked who they wanted to keep when they traded Harden. Can you blame him for not wanting to trash a championship-caliber team by turning into Shaq?

[Old School 44]

I think Durant/Westbrook relationship is going to go the way of Garnett/Marbury. As more losses pile up in big games with Westbrook taking most of the shots, the volume is going to turn up even louder on this issue. I see 1 or 2 more years tops for this combo before Presti decides it's time to break them up. Wonder who gets dealt?

[Chinook]

Explain some metric to me where what Westbrook did was remotely efficient. He took shots without ball movement, he went one on one, or one on two, he missed them, he didn't draw fouls, and he took shots away from one of the best players in the sport.

Also, when Durant shoots 90 percent from the free throw line, I'm unsure why you'd think that it would be better if his possessions went "to someone else". He's Kevin Durant, for god's sake.

I don't know what you're arguing about. I am not saying you're wrong to criticize Westbrook. I am saying that in general (as in not in defense of Westbrook), I don't like how people only look at FGA.

As far as Durant's free throws still counting as possessions, I don't think anybody in their right mind thinks that Durant shooting free throws is a wasted possession for OKC.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't know what you're arguing about. I am not saying you're wrong to criticize Westbrook. I am saying that in general (as in not in defense of Westbrook), I don't like how people only look at FGA.
You're posting in this thread talking about perception of efficiency. I apologize for thinking you did so intending to make a relevant point. Looking only at FGA when you have Westbrook on one hand and Durant on the other is really all you have to look at, but literally every other metric in the universe will back up what FGA tells you about the situation.


As far as Durant's free throws still counting as possessions, I don't think anybody in their right mind thinks that Durant shooting free throws is a wasted possession for OKC.
Then perhaps you should find a different thread to complain about it. I'll be interested to read how a guy can score 20 points on 20 field goal attempts and be efficient.

[Chinook]

You're posting in this thread talking about perception of efficiency. I apologize for thinking you did so intending to make a relevant point. Looking only at FGA when you have Westbrook on one hand and Durant on the other is really all you have to look at, but literally every other metric in the universe will back up what FGA tells you about the situation.

You're doing that whole "I didn't read carefully enough, but I'm not going to admit it and just keep arguing," thing again.



http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.pngOriginally Posted by Seventyniner (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6413716#post6413716)

Another shot from the "I only look at shot attempts" crowd...smh.

Durant uses 29.7% of his team's possessions this season, and used 26.5% last night.

Agreed.

Incidentally, I've always hated the idea of not counting shooting fouls as shot attempts. I understand that it wouldn't be fair to add a shot missed from a bad foul into the shooting percentages, but I've always found it disingenuous to read things like, "He scored 20 points off only 15 shots," only to look at the stat sheet and see a 5-15 night with 10 free throws. It's like people pretend that the player didn't use the possession just because he was fouled at the end.

Just in case you don't know what the word "incidentally" means, I'll clarify that I was talking to Seventyniner and mentioned off-handedly an aspect of stats reporting that I didn't like. It was you who decided to take that remark to mean I was suggesting that using possession percentage would tell a different story than FGA in this particular case. It doesn't matter to your argument (which I have never really tried to refute), but it does matter in many other circumstances. (For example, it makes Leonard's stat line last night look about as inefficient as Westbrook's.)


Then perhaps you should find a different thread to complain about it. I'll be interested to read how a guy can score 20 points on 20 field goal attempts and be efficient.

Nope, I'm good opining here. Besides you going off for no reason, this thread seems like a perfectly acceptable place to have such a discussion. If you were to read more and respond less, you'd probably understand that.

[Obstructed_View]

You're doing that whole "I didn't read carefully enough, but I'm not going to admit it and just keep arguing," thing again.

I already apologized for thinking that your post was relevant, so I'm unsure how you think that's not an admission that I didn't read carefully enough. I did actually make the mistake of assuming you were intending to make a point relevant to the topic of conversation. Usually it's what people do on message boards. I just kind of fell into the habit. When you responded to my response by saying "yes, but...", I again made the mistake of thinking you were arguing for some reason other than to just take up space in the thread. Had you said "oh I agree with you, what I said was irrelevant to this thread" I'd have probably given up at that point. I really was trying to understand what you were saying. Again, my mistake. Your posts are incidental: Without intention or calculation. Again, sorry about that.

I now apologize for even thinking the argument you irrelevantly brought was accurate or relevant to any situation. Again, I just assumed that your position had been well-thought-out and that it had some merit in some other situation. I actually went and did the math in several different areas trying to find a scenario where one couldn't draw an accurate conclusion about a player's efficiency by simply looking at their points vs field goal attempts, and came up completely empty. I really did give you every benefit of the doubt. Not only are you wrong in every way, you're posting in the wrong thread to state it, and getting pissy because I misunderstood its irrelevancy and randomness. If it makes you feel any better, you wasted some of my time. But thank you again; I certainly learned my lesson trying to discuss something with you.

[Chinook]

I already apologized for thinking that your post was relevant, so I'm unsure how you think that's not an admission that I didn't read carefully enough. I did actually make the mistake of assuming you were intending to make a point relevant to the topic of conversation. Usually it's what people do on message boards. I just kind of fell into the habit. When you responded to my response by saying "yes, but...", I again made the mistake of thinking you were arguing for some reason other than to just take up space in the thread. Had you said "oh I agree with you, what I said was irrelevant to this thread" I'd have probably given up at that point. I really was trying to understand what you were saying. Again, my mistake. Your posts are incidental: Without intention or calculation. Again, sorry about that.

For your benefit, let's flow this thread a little bit:


1) OP posts about Durant saying that he could have taken more shots.

1A) You (and others) say that it's Westbrook's fault
1AI) Many agree with you

1AII) Seventyniner says Durant touched the ball about as much as he always does
1AIIa) I agree that he did, and I assert that efficiency should include fouls
1AIIai) You respond to me and not to Seventyniner (whose post more directly opposes yours) for some reason and say that doesn't make a difference for this game, and I agree and clarify that wasn't my argument, but you keep going. Then when you realize that I wasn't even arguing against you, you try to pretend that it was my fault you were confused.
1AIIb) You don't respond to his point at all


1B) Other people are saying the Spurs' defense was a bigger cause than Westbrook


Your line of discussion was not the thread's topic, anyway. So I don't know where you get off acting like I have to be addressing the same things you were in order to be on topic. If you had even read the post Seventyniner made carefully, you'd have realized that Durant not touching the ball really wasn't the problem. He could have touched it more, but Westbrook's ball-hogging hurt his teammates more than it did Durant. He got his, but almost no one else on the team got theirs.


I actually went and did the math in several different areas trying to find a scenario where one couldn't draw an accurate conclusion about a player's efficiency by simply looking at their points vs field goal attempts, and came up completely empty. I really did give you every benefit of the doubt. Not only are you wrong in every way, you're posting in the wrong thread to state it, and getting pissy because I misunderstood its irrelevancy and randomness. If it makes you feel any better, you wasted some of my time. But thank you again; I certainly learned my lesson trying to discuss something with you.

Once again, you're the one who misunderstood the point. If you want to try to apply it as an argument against the view that Durant didn't get the ball enough, I'll help:

Durant was efficient, but he wasn't as efficient as his Points/FGA looks. Add in his turnovers and possessions ending with him drawing a shooting foul, and he scored 26 points off 23 possessions. That's nowhere near the 2:1 ratio of points/FGA. Players who draw fouls are falsely believed to be highly efficient, but they use possessions as much as anyone else does. For a great FT shooter like Durant, that doesn't hurt him usually. But players like Dwight Howard are not terribly efficient, even though their pts/FGA ratio is high.

So in short, what you should have taken away from this thread was: Durant and Westbrook touch the ball at about the same frequency. While it's true that Durant should shoot more than Westbrook, one cannot simply look at FGA to see how much a player touches the ball. The Thunder's offense depends on Durant taking a lot of foul shots. Therefore, one has to look at FTA in conjunction with FGA to see how much of the offense if truly going through Durant. It's not a huge critique aimed at your argument against Westbrook, but it is an answer to the OP.

[Gagnrath]

Obstructed view, devolving into personal insults toward chinook just makes you look bad, especially when you were making similar points initially.

Chinook, I agree with you that shot attempts isn't a be all end all stat. That said neither is touches or possessions ended by a player.

The whole conversation here is about weather the thunder do better when Durant would be more ball dominating, I'm also not entirely sure if he was saying he needed to dominate the ball more or if he needed more touches getting others outside of him and westbrook more involved. The spurs however forced him into 5 turn overs which is considerably over his average, making the idea of Durant being more of a facilitator questionable however Westbrook would have been well served by getting the others more involved.

[SenorSpur]

Pretty much gave no credit to Kawhi and Jackson's defense on him for only "allowing" him 13 shots tonight. He said he can pretty much get any shot he wants and get to any spot on the court he wants. Their defense had nothing to do with his shot attempts. He said he could take 30 attempts if he wanted. What do you guys think?

I heard that too and I thought it was an immature attempt to dismiss his opponent. If Durant wanted to get salty with someone, he should've gotten salty with his PG. Westbrook, and this is an old, long-running story, was equally as responsible for limiting Durant's shot attempts as both Green and Leonard.

The manner in which OKC carries themselves and the comments they make, it's obvious to me that they don't really respect the Spurs. That's probably expected since they prevailed in last year's WCF They certainly have been as murderous a matchup for the Spurs, as the Heat have been to them. However, OKC's penchant for making bad basketball decisions is still present. Perhaps that, along with the absence of Harden, will be their achilles heel come playoff time. It will be interesting if and when these two teams hook up again in the playoffs.

[therealtruth]

I frankly don't undestand the max salary mentality by players (and their agents) of teams that have the chance to be contenders.
In this regard, the right way is the one that Miami players have already shown : you take a little less for having the chance to build the best team that's possible.
Neither Lebron nor Wade nor Bosh take the max, and all three of them could have had it from any other team.
The first wrong decision has been made by Durant...if he gave the example by taking less, Westbrook and Harden could have made the same...and OKC could have been in the finals for a decade, with more than a good chance to win it all (and winning is beneficial for players, that can make more money with personal sponsors).

Durant/Westbrook both made concessions in their contracts. I think they were thinking Harden would do the same.

[Chinook]

Chinook, I agree with you that shot attempts isn't a be all end all stat. That said neither is touches or possessions ended by a player.

The whole conversation here is about weather the thunder do better when Durant would be more ball dominating, I'm also not entirely sure if he was saying he needed to dominate the ball more or if he needed more touches getting others outside of him and westbrook more involved. The spurs however forced him into 5 turn overs which is considerably over his average, making the idea of Durant being more of a facilitator questionable however Westbrook would have been well served by getting the others more involved.

Pretty much. What I was saying in the above post was that Durant got his touches, while Westbrook got more than his usual amount. This suggests that the other players on the team didn't get theirs. Westbrook chucking took away shots from everyone. Just giving Durant eight of those attempts doesn't automatically mean that the team would do better. It's all about the right players getting shots organically from the offense.

I do think that possessions used is a better indicator of a player's usage, but you're right that's not the end-all, be-all. For one thing, it doesn't count assists, and that's a big part of many players' games.

[look_at_g_shred]

When this guy is defended correctly like he was the other night, he doesn't look unstoppable unless help from the whistle crew.