Kawhi Leonard is the 3rd best player on this team

[Uriel]

There's no denying it anymore. At this stage of his career, Manu can only show flashes of the star player he once was. But game by game, Kawhi's game has grown by leaps and bounds, and he's now playing at, or close to, an all-star level, on nearly a night-to-night basis.

[blkroadrunners]

I'd still like to see how well he'll do in the playoffs. He was pretty solid last year, but right now he's playing on a much higher and consistent level.

[ElNono]

on a serious note, I agree, and that's good for the Spurs... plus he's a kid which means he can play ling minutes... the thing is, he's a starter... it doesn't help the bench woes... today Nando was great, but Neal couldn't even play. It's like feast or famine out there, and I'm not sure how Tony helps on that.

[HI-FI]

it's been an amazing thing to watch this season. we all knew he had it in him, but when he missed out some time with his tendonitis,I wasn't quite sure what to expect with this season. But he's growth has been incredible. We definitely need it since a certain Argentinian player on our team seems to have gone in the other direction.

[Arcadian]

Agreed

[racm]

What a stat stuffer. :toast

[hooperflash]

All-Star type defense, his offense is improving greatly. :tu

Some outsiders said his shooting game would never get any better out of college.

[Brunodf]

Not yet

[cd021]

Of course not. He's played very well but you can't tell me that he is better than Manu when it counts late in games in the playoffs.

[freetiago]

This isnt 05 anymore
Leonards had lots of clutch plays for the Spurs in his 2 seasons

[elemento]

No he isn't.

It's still Mr. Ginobili

[TDfan2007]

Of course not. He's played very well but you can't tell me that he is better than Manu when it counts late in games in the playoffs.

2012 playoffs say hi. Last year Manu had his worst playoffs since probably 04, or 08 when he got cuckolded by Vujacic (that was just one series though).

I personally don't care who's better, but one of them has to be great in the playoffs for us to have a chance. At this point in their careers, I'd have to side with Leonard's youth. Manu is really showing the wear of having played for over a year non-stop. He's just not the same force on the pnr and he gambles WAY too much defensively.

[Strategic]

I agree.

[Chinook]

I'm not worried about the bench. The biggest problems with it right now is the lack of Parker (which puts all four of the points out of position) and fact that the rotation is too deep right now. Both of those things will be fixed come playoff time. If not, the starters will be playing more minutes, anyway.

[Bruno]

Leonard has been better this season than Ginobili. Leonard is getting better but the main reason of that is that Ginobili hasn't played at his level.

Age and injuries are for sure a factor of Manu not playing that well but lack of rhythm has also been a problem. Manu has started slow the season with injuries in training camp but he has had a very good stretch of games in December/January before hurting his hamstring. Since the hamstring injury, he has been widely inconsistent from games to games and even within the same game.

If Manu can be in rhythm for the playoffs, he will be great and way better than Kawhi.

[HarlemHeat37]

When they're both peaking, Manu is better, since his passing is vital and his shot is automatic(when he's on, or course)..he's also a proven playoff performer and one of the best last-shot maker of this generation..

Leonard is clearly the more consistent player and better defender, though..

Let's just be fortunate that we can even have this argument this season, tbh..Leonard has seemingly developed at a quicker rate than we could have imagined, tbh..

[jemanuel]

No he isn't.

It's still Mr. Ginobili

Yes, he is still Mr. Ginobili and Kawhi is still boy Kawhi :lol

[Strategic]

Damn Bruno I had a long reply to your previous post, but out of respect I erased it and went with this. lol. I do think this. If your super Manu gets his "groove back" and starts scoring 20 a game it will totally screw up the identity of this team. I think he's doing the best he can with what he has to work with.

[Strategic]

I hope that Manu knows that helping his team win the last game of the NBA season will be his best service. I did see him pass the ball late in the game tonight which was a great sign.

[spurraider21]

Kawhi's defense isn't really "elite" yet but he definitely has flashes of shutdown D. I still remember the one play from the Bulls game where he completely took a dump on Deng during one Bulls possession. That said, Manu's D has slipped quite a bit. He's still a ballhawk that ends up with nice steals, but his on-ball defense at times is matador bad.

I still trust him over Kawhi in big moments where we need a bucket, especially in playoff time

[racm]

Kawhi's defense isn't really "elite" yet but he definitely has flashes of shutdown D. I still remember the one play from the Bulls game where he completely took a dump on Deng during one Bulls possession. That said, Manu's D has slipped quite a bit. He's still a ballhawk that ends up with nice steals, but his on-ball defense at times is matador bad.

I still trust him over Kawhi in big moments where we need a bucket, especially in playoff time

Manu also can't defend quick guards.

[Brazil]

on a serious note, I agree, and that's good for the Spurs... plus he's a kid which means he can play ling minutes... the thing is, he's a starter... it doesn't help the bench woes... today Nando was great, but Neal couldn't even play. It's like feast or famine out there, and I'm not sure how Tony helps on that.

I didn't see the games but I went through the game blog and see the thread titles...I was like Manu had a bad day then I checked the score box 14 and 10 for Manu and I was then expecting like 9 TOs but no it was 3....ST :lmao

[Gospursel]

Manu will have a stretch of games (3/5) this season/post season where he is the best player on the court. Even though his overall production is way down, people seem to forget that he is in a slump. when Manu is bad - he can be really bad. When Manu is beasting (which he can still do albeit less frequently) he is unstoppable.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Manu also can't defend quick guards.

I thought he did better with that tonight but his turnovers and overpenetration is driving me nuts. He is doing it over and over again it seems.

[spurraider21]

Manu will have a stretch of games (3/5) this season/post season where he is the best player on the court. Even though his overall production is way down, people seem to forget that he is in a slump. when Manu is bad - he can be really bad. When Manu is beasting (which he can still do albeit less frequently) he is unstoppable.

This. It wasn't too long ago when we kept bumping the "Ditka couldn't stop Manu tonight" thread after every other game

[sasffl]

Pop will trust Manu more than Kawhi in the playoffs

[Kidd K]

Leonard's been better than Manu this year overall, but Manu's capability is still higher than Leonard's. I would rather have Ginobili red hot and clicking than Leonard hot and clicking.

Manu still has a higher ceiling, he just needs to play more consistently close to it than he is. Leonard seems to be doing exactly that though for himself, so my hat's off to him for the great work ethic.

When it comes down to it though, I'm very pleased with Leonard's progress, and despite the argument of who's better, it's safe to say we will be relying on both players in the playoffs for significant minutes.

Now if only Parker and Neal come back 100% before the playoffs start, and Jackson starts to contribute at a decent level, we might really have something here.

[cd021]

2012 playoffs say hi. Last year Manu had his worst playoffs since probably 04, or 08 when he got cuckolded by Vujacic (that was just one series though). I personally don't care who's better, but one of them has to be great in the playoffs for us to have a chance. At this point in their careers, I'd have to side with Leonard's youth. Manu is really showing the wear of having played for over a year non-stop. He's just not the same force on the pnr and he gambles WAY too much defensively. 2012 Playoffs Manu Ginobili -14.4 ppg, 44.8 FG, 33.8 3pt%, 4 Apg (Per 36 18.6 ppg) Kawhi Leonard-8.6 ppg, 50%, 45% 3pt, 5.9 rpg, (Per 36 11.5 ppg) Manu clearly outplayed Kawhi. Kawhi's percentages were inflated because virtually all of his points were assisted and were open looks on the wing. Manu dropped 34 and nearly carried us to the biggest win of the season on his back in game 5 of the WCF. Leonard surpassed expectations in the playoffs but Manu was still better. How you think Kawhi outplayed him is beyond me. Kawhi still looks awkward with the ball. He has been more aggressive which has helped but his shooting percentages have steadily declined. His 3pt shooting has been suspect for the better part of 2 months. Manu is still very efficient. He is averaging a career high in assist per 36. He can erratic but what do you expect from an 36 year old wing. His play is still well above average. Late in games i'd trust Manu with the ball over Kawhi. Since Parker went down he's had 15 & 10 assists off the bench. Not many (if any) could pull off that feet while playing under 30 minutes let alone 25 minutes like Manu. Kawhi's defense has been overrated. Manu doesn't have both Duncan & Splitter there to act as trees in the post nearly as much as Kawhi does.

[John B]

Manu is prone to make mistakes because of his style of play. He is aggressive and he passes in traffic. He is still not 100% but hopefully will be come playoffs. While Kawhi has steadily blossomed before our eyes, he is yet to prove himself as a go-to guy. I like what I see in Kawhi and I hope it's enough to take us to the next level, along with the improvements of Splitter and co..

[spursfaninla]

2012 playoffs say hi. Last year Manu had his worst playoffs since probably 04, or 08 when he got cuckolded by Vujacic (that was just one series though).

I personally don't care who's better, but one of them has to be great in the playoffs for us to have a chance. At this point in their careers, I'd have to side with Leonard's youth. Manu is really showing the wear of having played for over a year non-stop. He's just not the same force on the pnr and he gambles WAY too much defensively.

Your lack of knowledge about the Spurs is frightening (coming from a Spurs fan): Manu was injured for the 08 laker's series. "The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent." http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3559440

[kaji157]

Ask yourself this question, what do you think opposing coaches say to their players?

"without Parker we have to focus on defending Duncan and Leonard" or "without parker we have to focus on Duncan and Ginobili"

Same goes for those who say "Tiago can take some ofensive load of Duncan" duh... He can because teams focus on Duncan. Had the Spurs had 2 Tiagos and no Duncan, none would ever score.

[kaji157]

There's no denying it anymore. At this stage of his career, Manu can only show flashes of the star player he once was. But game by game, Kawhi's game has grown by leaps and bounds, and he's now playing at, or close to, an all-star level, on nearly a night-to-night basis.

Yeah he is that good on offense that Pop will tell him to lead a team consisted of Diaw, Bonner or Blair, De Colo and Neal... Oh wait.. he can´t so Manu does it.
But defensivelly he is far better than Ginobili... and Also gets to play with 2 legit bigs (Duncan, Splitter) and Green... so he has his fair share of help...
While Manu has.... well let´s just say Manu HAS to gamble a lot in defense.

Some people here think with their eyes...

[Capt Bringdown]

There's Spurs fans, and there's Manu fans. Same as it ever was.

[Obstructed_View]

I thought of Kawhi's improvement, but I compared him to Kenneth Faried and Klay Thompson. Manu goes on a tear every season where he's the best player in the league. I'm perfectly fine if he keeps that in his pocket until the second round of the playoffs. When Parker's back and all of them are playing well and defending, the sky's the limit for this team.

[spurraider21]

I thought of Kawhi's improvement, but I compared him to Kenneth Faried and Klay Thompson. Manu goes on a tear every season where he's the best player in the league. I'm perfectly fine if he keeps that in his pocket until the second round of the playoffs. When Parker's back and all of them are playing well and defending, the sky's the limit for this team.

We'll need everybody to be firing on all cylinders in the Finals. Up to that point, WC teams all have some fatal flaws

[Pauleta14]

Troll question IMO...

Of course he didn't, this is ONLY regular season...

NOTHING replaces experience and poise during the PO!!

Manu still hasn't find his rythm, physicaly and mentaly, he is out of synch and looks like he's taking time (as we do) to accept the fact that he can't play the superhero anymore (quick 3s...).

I have no doubt he'll be ready for the PO and will shut a lot of mouthes...

Can't believe what I'm reading from.... Spurs/Manu fans!!!!

Shame on you guys...

[Trill Clinton]

There's Spurs fans, and there's Manu fans. Same as it ever was.

yup

[KL2]

Right now he is, what he brings offensively and defensively is very impressive, he's also got some playmaking ability and while his playmaking isn't on Manu's level it's pretty good. Not only that but he can rebound with the best, he also does a ton of stuff that won't show up on the stat sheet such as ball deflections which lead to steals.

You cannot count Manu out just yet though, when he's at the top of his game he's almost unguardable, elite passing/playmaking, solid defense, scoring, steals, etc. I've seen him play EXACTLY like this before, when it was the final year of his contract. He was forcing things, yelling at his teammates, turning the ball over, missing shots, just really frustrated. He rebounded like halfway through the season and tore it up.

[Drom John]

Denier here. Tim Duncan is the third best player on this team.


Leonard is 6th in WS and WS/48.
Green is ahead in WS because of playing time.
Leonard is ahead of Joseph because of playing time.

#1 Tony Parker
#2 Tiago "Will Be Paid" Splitter

[HarlemHeat37]

Denier here. Tim Duncan is the third best player on this team.


Leonard is 6th in WS and WS/48.
Green is ahead in WS because of playing time.
Leonard is ahead of Joseph because of playing time.

#1 Tony Parker
#2 Tiago "Will Be Paid" Splitter

:lol doesn't understand advanced stats..

[therealtruth]

It's a good thing if KL is a force on his own. It allows the Spurs to attack more matchups. It's always best to attack the matchup where you have the greatest advantage.

[exstatic]

Yes
1) Tony
2) Tim/Manu
3) Kawhi

Manu isn't playing even remotely on Tim's level.

[Solid D]

On certain nights, sure. Kawhi has had plenty of unremarkable games this year, though. Even though Manu is out of sync right now, he still played his role well against Cleveland (when this thread was posted) with 10 assists.

[Solid D]

This would be a good thing to review at the end of the season. Right now Kawhi has the 3rd best efficiency rating on the team at +15. Tiago and Manu are both close behind. him.

With that said, Manu Ginobili's career efficiency rating is 21.68 which ranks him 33rd among all NBA players in history. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

[superjames1992]

Manu's PER: 20.4

Kahwi's PER: 16.4

'Nuff said. Next question, please?

[Dex]

Glad to see his offensive game is finally coming around. After his summer league and training camp, it was obvious that they were trying to make him a focal point of the offense, and that really seemed to throw a funk into his game. He was forcing things and trying too hard to dictate the game, when one of the things that made him so successful in his rookie season was feasting on things as they came to him.

Fortunately, it seemed like the coaching staff recognized this (and much to his credit, Kawhi did as well and handled it maturely), and he backed off the strategy. It took a while for him to settle back into his old role, but he's now gradually expanded upon that to the point where he is putting up occasional All-Star numbers while still not having to force the issue to get them. He's playing in a way that reminds me of vintage Timmy, where it doesn't seem like he's been doing much, but you look up and he's got 20 points and 10 boards.

So glad the Spurs were able to pick this kid up. Time still has a lot to tell, but may end up going into the books as another one of the masterful FO moves ala Parker and Ginobili.

[look_at_g_shred]

Alot of people on here think that KL is not going to be used as an offensive weapon the way he's playing now, in the playoffs. That's funny.

[TDfan2007]

Your lack of knowledge about the Spurs is frightening (coming from a Spurs fan): Manu was injured for the 08 laker's series. "The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent." http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3559440

I'm aware that he was hurt, but he had an awful series either way. My main point is that Manu cannot play at a star level consistently anymore.

[007nites]

The thing which is awesome about Kawhi is that he barely makes any mistakes. He's just about averaging under 1 turnover a game playing 30 minutes a game.

Tim usually turns it over when he gets doubled in the post or when someone throws him a tough pass. Manu turns it over when passing mainly and TP will usually get stripped when he over dribbles.

[ace3g]

I'm a big Manu fan (my favorite player) and I don't see the negatives of this debate; means the Spurs have another scorer come playoff time and that the "internal improvement" (Kawhi, Splitter, Green) is on schedule. I don't think the torch has been passed just yet, but Manu has the lighter out of his pocket.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Tim Duncan is still more important and better than Tony Parker. Without Tim we would hover around .500 and be a bottom 10 defensive team. Without Parker our win percentage is much higher. That being said we have to have them both to go anywhere. On that note, we need the whole team to contribute.

[apalisoc_9]

Of course not. He's played very well but you can't tell me that he is better than Manu when it counts late in games in the playoffs.

:lol:depressed


No he isn't.

It's still Mr. Ginobili

Wrong. I was wrong.

Kawhi is now officially the second-third best player on the spurs

[DMX7]

Of course not. He's played very well but you can't tell me that he is better than Manu when it counts late in games in the playoffs.

LMAO... I can't even tell which team Manu is playing for these days when it's a late game situation in the playoffs.

[cd021]

:lol:depressed



Wrong. I was wrong.

Kawhi is now officially the second-third best player on the spurs

My quote was from 3 months ago genius.:lmao

[cd021]

LMAO... I can't even tell which team Manu is playing for these days when it's a late game situation in the playoffs.

Quote was from 3-16-13. Several days before Parker returned from ankle injury. check the date of post next time instead of laughing about my lack of foreseeing the future. No one could have predicted the horror of Manu's Finals