Manu Ginobili played like crap again

[tmtcsc]

Is there any surprise we lost this game? Manu goes 1-6 and scores 3 pts, grabs 5 Rebs. If we win a Championship, it's going to be because someone other than Manu steps up and exceeds expectations. I don't think he's just going to turn things around. I've never seen him play so consistently bad before. It's come to a point where the good games are the anomaly.

It's hard to admit because Manu has been my favorite player to watch over the last decade but its not so fun anymore. He turns the ball over, makes ridiculous passes, plays sub-par defense and gets burned regularly. He ALWAYS gives great effort and is competitive as hell - two things I'll always appreciate - but his miscues are starting to outweigh the positives.

Is there any reason to believe that he'll pull things together? I'm not so sure. It makes me cringe to see him with the ball in his hands. Do you know how crazy that sounds? I used to plead for his teammates to pass him the ball when the game was on the line. Now? He either throws up a garbage shot, gets the ball knocked out of his hands or jumps up in the air, off-balance and throws the ball in to the other guys hands

SMFH

[jestersmash]

I feel like Sean Elliott has sensed this and is already dropping hints about Kawhi needing to average 15 PPG+ in the playoffs for us to have a chance. Kawhi is going to need to assume bigger responsibilities on offense to offset Ginobili's putrid offensive output.

[ElNono]

His shooting slump is certainly a big problem right now. Outside of that, I thought he had a solid outing. 5 boards, 4 assists, only one turnover.

[tmtcsc]

Either Neal is hurt or Pop's making a point and punishing him. Either way, with Manu struggling, we are missing some points and/or big shots. We don't have much time to straighten things out. I'm actually glad we are going to play against tough competition down the stretch because this team needs to face the best before the playoffs begin.

[ElNono]

Either Neal is hurt or Pop's making a point and punishing him. Either way, with Manu struggling, we are missing some points and/or big shots. We don't have much time to straighten things out. I'm actually glad we are going to play against tough competition down the stretch because this team needs to face the best before the playoffs begin.

Rockets announcers said Neal was out with planar fasciitis... closest I heard from official word on him.

[siraulo23]

His shot is definitely not helping him, but I still hope he can play at level he did in the olympics

[emanueldavidginobili]

Point blank we won't make it to the finals maybe not even the WCF finals with Manu playing like this.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

He can't make shit right now...don't know if it's his old legs or what...I also noticed he doesn't even split pick and rolls any more, he just picks up his dribble and tries to make a pass...just really hope it's all mental and not physical...

[Libri]

Expect three more seasons of it.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211213&highlight=manu

[Thread]

It's difficult to play when you have a 3 tiner sticking out of your back.

tee, hee.

[Sean Cagney]

Expect three more seasons of it.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211213&highlight=manu
He doesn't have three years left in him unless he does a Tim Duncan about face from two seasons ago to now! He doesn't have enough left though IMO to do that.

[slick'81]

hes clearly in decline lets just hope manu has 1 more good playoff push in him

[Bruno]

Manu playing that bad is by far the biggest concern regarding Spurs.

It usually takes a little time for Manu to get back his groove and rhythm after an injury but, he has played 17 games since he came back from the hamstring injury and he is still struggling. It's worrying.

I certainly won't bury Manu because he is a great player but he is at an age where you had to wonder if this slump isn't a sign that he has nothing left in the tank. Manu is the fifth oldest SG/SF in the NBA behind Grant Hill, Jerry Stackhouse, Ray Allen and Vince Carter. The four wingmen older than Manu were great players that are now nowhere near their previous level.

[Sean Cagney]

hes clearly in decline lets just hope manu has 1 more good playoff push in him

We will need it.

[Richie]

It could all be the Olympics. He didn't get a summer of rest as he has in previous years and perhaps his body couldn't handle it.

I agree with what others have said though, we can't win a title with Manu playing like this in the playoffs.

[EricB]

Not going to bring up his good defense nor the great play he made for a steal in the 4th?

no?

ok

[Johnny RIngo]

Manu playing that bad is by far the biggest concern regarding Spurs.

It usually takes a little time for Manu to get back his groove and rhythm after an injury but, he has played 17 games since he came back from the hamstring injury and he is still struggling. It's worrying.

I certainly won't bury Manu because he is a great player but he is at an age where you had to wonder if this slump isn't a sign that he has nothing left in the tank. Manu is the fifth oldest SG/SF in the NBA behind Grant Hill, Jerry Stackhouse, Ray Allen and Vince Carter. The four wingmen older than Manu were great players that are now nowhere near their previous level.


Carter's been better than Manu this season though.

[TMTTRIO]

At this point just stick him on the end of the bench and don't play him. Hopefully the other bench players will pick up their games.

[Johnny RIngo]

Expect three more seasons of it.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211213&highlight=manu

He won't even be able to play out half that contract.

[EricB]

At this point just stick him on the end of the bench and don't play him. Hopefully the other bench players will pick up their games.

Yeah that's a fantastic idea....

[crc21209]

While he made good plays on D and can be a good playmaker, I'm starting to get worried about all these 1-7 and 2-10 shooting nights along with dumb attempts at passes. I'll never give up on Manu though. TD hasn't always gone into the Playoffs playing well and once Game 1 of the 1st round begins he always turns it up a notch. I think Manu will turn this thing around soon...

[ElNono]

His shooting is definitely the big elephant in the room right now. I think getting his shot back will make the rest of his game fall in place. I'm not buying the Olympics out of gas part... he doesn't look tired and he had some time off with the injuries. His minutes also have been limited throughout. Tonight he only took 6 shots, which I think speaks volumes on his lack of confidence in his shooting. Knowing Manu, he's probably the one being the hardest on himself over this.

Let's hope he turns a corner on the poor shooting sooner rather than later.

[therealtruth]

People were saying Manu was done in '10 when he was playing terrible at the beginning of the season. After TP went down with an injury and he started starting he became the Manu of old. I think it may be more of a mindset. He feels that the team is good enough that he doesn't have to do that much. However that lack of aggressiveness hurts his game.

[DMC]

What?!? Our team is getting old and it's showing? No. Wake me when it's over.

[tmtcsc]

His shooting is definitely the big elephant in the room right now. I think getting his shot back will make the rest of his game fall in place. I'm not buying the Olympics out of gas part... he doesn't look tired and he had some time off with the injuries. His minutes also have been limited throughout. Tonight he only took 6 shots, which I think speaks volumes on his lack of confidence in his shooting. Knowing Manu, he's probably the one being the hardest on himself over this.

Let's hope he turns a corner on the poor shooting sooner rather than later.

You're right about the shot attempts and as far as his overall play, I'm hoping for the same thing. However, he needs to play better defense too. Delfino and Lin ran right by him.

On a totally separate note: WTF are refs going to stop bailing out Harden's weak ass ? He's flopping out there and getting way too much respect from the officials. I hate that dude and his nasty troll-toothed mug.

[Bruno]

Carter's been better than Manu this season though.

Yeah, he is having a good season even if it's debatable that he has been better than Manu. Regardless, it doesn't change that Carter is playing nowhere near his prime level.

[ElNono]

You're right about the shot attempts and as far as his overall play, I'm hoping for the same thing. However, he needs to play better defense too. Delfino and Lin ran right by him.

It wasn't pretty all game, but he had to dance with Harden in the 1st half and he wasn't halfway bad, IMO (and tbh, I thought he was going to get torched). Delfino was 4-10, Lin 2-8... sure, there probably was some specific play he didn't cover well, but for the night, I thought he played excellent defense overall, including that steal on Parsons at the end that ended up with Danny's blown layup.

[jestersmash]

He can't make shit right now...don't know if it's his old legs or what...I also noticed he doesn't even split pick and rolls any more, he just picks up his dribble and tries to make a pass...just really hope it's all mental and not physical...

+1. He's gotten completely passive on pick and rolls. It's really infuriating to watch, tbh.

He used to be so much more aggressive on the pick and rolls, constantly looking to penetrate and dribble towards the rim.

Nowadays he'll pick his man off going toward the sideline (as opposed to driving toward the rim), picks up his dribble (giving ample time for his defender to recover), and looks for the pass immediately. It's just really ineffective overall because it also gives ample time for the Tim or Tiago's defender to recover.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

If this is the beginning of what to expect out of Manu from now on, then (after Tiago) the biggest focus of the offseason should be acquiring a starter-caliber guard. We'll need someone to pick up the slack until Danny learns how to dribble and make a layup.

[freetiago]

Ginobili cant play well without Bonner spacing the floor tbh
thats the one consistent thing in him coming off the bench the past 2 years
opens up his drives and his skip passes actually work
teams usually defend Bonner with a big and those guys dont want to come out of the paint which leaves the skip pass open
they also rotate slower since theyre big
with pass happy Diaw or a small in Jackson out as the 4s they are guarding by guys who will come out of the paint and his skip passes get read
theyre also quick enough to cut off penetration and rotate back out on shooters

it would be best to have Ginobili basically play the Danny Green role except he could actually get into the paint and finish things occasionally
but even now that isnt really going for him

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm more worried about Pop's reluctance to accept Manu's decline, tbh..

I understand that Manu has earned the benefit of the doubt, he's a HOFer, but at some point the team needs to accept that his role should be reduced..

Kawhi was having a good game up until the mid-3rd, where Pop subbed him out..Leonard didn't touch the ball again for what seemed like an eternity, and his only shots in the 4th were spot-up 3s with the clock windin down(he deserves blame for that hideous shot that hit the side of the backboard, obviously)..

We have reached the point where Leonard needs to be involved in the offense every few plays, tbh..the Spurs can't allow 6-7 minutes to elapse until they run a play for him..

[Sean Cagney]

People were saying Manu was done in '10 when he was playing terrible at the beginning of the season. After TP went down with an injury and he started starting he became the Manu of old. I think it may be more of a mindset. He feels that the team is good enough that he doesn't have to do that much. However that lack of aggressiveness hurts his game.

No it's called he sits back now and jacks up some dumb ass three stepping back etc. His shot selection is just horrible and he can't drive anymore like that in which he did in 010. I hope he has some left in his tank, but this jump shooting Manu is not going to be make it . He relies way too much on a bad stepback three shot.

[ElNono]

I'm more worried about Pop's reluctance to accept Manu's decline, tbh..

I understand that Manu has earned the benefit of the doubt, he's a HOFer, but at some point the team needs to accept that his role should be reduced..

Kawhi was having a good game up until the mid-3rd, where Pop subbed him out..Leonard didn't touch the ball again for what seemed like an eternity, and his only shots in the 4th were spot-up 3s with the clock windin down(he deserves blame for that hideous shot that hit the side of the backboard, obviously)..

We have reached the point where Leonard needs to be involved in the offense every few plays, tbh..the Spurs can't allow 6-7 minutes to elapse until they run a play for him..

I agree Leonard needs his number called more often, but today Manu didn't even take shots during that time. We mostly posted TD every play down the floor then Tony took over at the end.

Credit the Rockets though, they felt Asik could cover Duncan, didn't send much help inside and stayed with the shooters. Today it worked for them. I thought Tiago needed to pick up the slack, but he didn't have a good game matching up with microball.

[Strategic]

He was what he was and he is what he is and he's not what he was. If he needs the rest of the team to take it down to the last minute of the championship series so that he can step up and be the hero, hopefully he won't have the ball in his hands. Let the guys that are carrying the load now carry the load then. No shame in that!

[Sean Cagney]

Ginobili cant play well without Bonner spacing the floor tbh
thats the one consistent thing in him coming off the bench the past 2 years
opens up his drives and his skip passes actually work
teams usually defend Bonner with a big and those guys dont want to come out of the paint which leaves the skip pass open
they also rotate slower since theyre big
with pass happy Diaw or a small in Jackson out as the 4s they are guarding by guys who will come out of the paint and his skip passes get read
theyre also quick enough to cut off penetration and rotate back out on shooters

it would be best to have Ginobili basically play the Danny Green role except he could actually get into the paint and finish things occasionally
but even now that isnt really going for him

If we are relying on choker Bonner to come in and save his game off the bench then forget it! GOOD LORD do not even mention that playoff choker who never started a big game nor had major mins on a title team of ours! Since he got here we only won with him in a limited role! I will leave it at that. If you want to rely on bozo getting more mins in the last month or so then I will disagree, he is what he is and a choker in the later year up unto the playoffs. Manu just can't drive anymore like he could, period.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

No it's called he sits back now and jacks up some dumb ass three stepping back etc. His shot selection is just horrible and he can't drive anymore like that in which he did in 010. I hope he has some left in his tank, but this jump shooting Manu is not going to be make it . He relies way too much on a bad stepback three shot.

He hasn't taken a step back 3 in ages, tbh. Poor shot selection isn't the issue. The issue is that he can't hit open shots when they are given to him. He can't finish through contact in the lane, and this is particularly troublesome given that he isn't getting much respect from the refs anymore either. He routinely gives up open or semi-contested shots and opts to pass the ball out more (often to well-guarded teammates) because he feels he needs to be more of a "facilitator," but the problem is he can't facilitate if he isn't perceived as a scoring threat.

[tmtcsc]

Leonard made some mistakes down the stretch - including the awful three that he could have pump-faked and taken to the hoop- but I'd like to see him get more plays called for him. He's athletic and when he makes a mistake, he's usually good at making up for it.

[ElNono]

If we are relying on choker Bonner to come in and save his game off the bench then forget it! GOOD LORD do not even mention that playoff choker who never started a big game nor had major mins on a title team of ours! Since he got here we only won with him in a limited role! I will leave it at that. If you want to rely on bozo getting more mins in the last month or so then I will disagree, he is what he is and a choker in the later year up unto the playoffs. Manu just can't drive anymore like he could, period.

Don't know why you even bother responding to that guy. :lol

Manu was playing perfectly fine when he was playing with Tiago, Diaw and even Blair last season. Even with Richard freaking Jefferson. He closed games playing perfectly fine with Tim.

[Bruno]

Another issue about Manu being bad is that it significantly hurt the team.

+/- post all star game:
Splitter: +128
Duncan: +106
Leonard: +106
Green: +95
Parker: +76
Joseph: +25
Bonner: +23
Neal: +21
Jackson: +20
Baynes: -7
Blair: -9
Diaw: -12
Ginobili: -16
De Colo: -67

[freetiago]

Diaw was a starter
and RJ was a 3 who spaced the floor well sitting near the top of the league in 3 point %
doesnt matter what roll man Manu had
he did well with either Blair or Splitter
its the change from a true stretch 4 to a 2/3 masquerading as a 4
its why Popovich preached floor spacing tbh
Ginobili needs it
or hes just that washed up now
gave all he had left for Argentina last summer

those +- numbers also confirm that as soon as the turds come in the other teams dominate
Splitter will have to be on the floor with Ginobili and some Leonard as well

[ElNono]

Only -16 cumulative through 15 games? That can't be right. I thought the damage was much worse.

[benstanfield]

Can't worry about these things on a game by game basis. Either Manu, Jack, and Diaw are coasting or not fully engaged, in which case they can turn it up when the games matter and we'll be fine, or they're just done as reliable NBA players, in which case we're fucked. Can't control it, and we won't know until the PO's which is the case.

[Bruno]

Only -16 cumulative through 15 games? That can't be right. I thought the damage was much worse.

Well, Spurs are +111 without him on the court, so it's pretty damn bad.

[HarlemHeat37]

Are those numbers adjusted?..

And Nono, I agree, that wasn't just Manu at fault..it's just evident that Pop still only trusts Parker/Ginobili/Duncan to run the offense though, unfortunately..

[ElNono]

Well, Spurs are +111 without him on the court, so it's pretty damn bad.

Over 15 games? Considering how bad he's been shooting/playing and how much of the offense runs through him, I expected a much bigger difference, tbh.

[ElNono]

And Nono, I agree, that wasn't just Manu at fault..it's just evident that Pop still only trusts Parker/Ginobili/Duncan to run the offense though, unfortunately..

I think Pop is a guy that's not going to 'adjust' or 'change' now... it's kind of like the Neal at backup PG situation, which I think will only actually change now because Neal is hurt, so he'll be forced to do something about it.

I'm on board with Kawhi getting a bigger role, tbh... even if Manu would be playing relatively well, I think Kawhi can have at the very least his number called a couple times each quarter.

[TD 21]

Ginobili cant play well without Bonner spacing the floor tbh
thats the one consistent thing in him coming off the bench the past 2 years
opens up his drives and his skip passes actually work
teams usually defend Bonner with a big and those guys dont want to come out of the paint which leaves the skip pass open
they also rotate slower since theyre big
with pass happy Diaw or a small in Jackson out as the 4s they are guarding by guys who will come out of the paint and his skip passes get read
theyre also quick enough to cut off penetration and rotate back out on shooters

it would be best to have Ginobili basically play the Danny Green role except he could actually get into the paint and finish things occasionally
but even now that isnt really going for him

Excellent analysis.

The bench, in general, is becoming this team's Achilles heel. Between Ginobili struggling mightily and Neal not being active (and even when active, not being right physically), there's virtually no firepower. Short of Ginobili re-discovering his game, the only potential remedies are . . .1) Playing Leonard with the bench more, 2) Playing Bonner more, 3) Utilizing Mills as the backup PG.

Almost everyone's so caught up in having a pass first/defensive type (or at least, non liability) of a backup PG, but that only works if Ginobili can still carry the bench. If he can't, then they need a scorer next to him. This is why letting Neal go would be difficult.

[HarlemHeat37]

Kawhi should be playing with Manu while Tim/TP sit, tbh..he can play more minutes than anybody else on the team..I understand limiting his minutes in the regular season due to his knees, but I hope we will see him with the bench unit during the playoffs..

Agreed with TD about Neal..he's very frustrating at times and his flaws are severe, but Joseph and DeColo are too conservative for this current version of the Spurs bench..hopefully Neal can fight through the pain down the stretch..

:lol it would be pretty ironic if Bonner saved the bench unit..

[hater]

Manu had an improved game tonight. Much has to do with the fact he wasn't allowed to commit so many turnovers anymore because he didn't handle the ball as much. But a step in the right direction is a step in the right direction.

[Sean Cagney]

Don't know why you even bother responding to that guy. :lol

Manu was playing perfectly fine when he was playing with Tiago, Diaw and even Blair last season. Even with Richard freaking Jefferson. He closed games playing perfectly fine with Tim.

True true. Some posters on here are just flat out stupid! Thanks man.

[Sean Cagney]

He hasn't taken a step back 3 in ages, tbh. Poor shot selection isn't the issue. The issue is that he can't hit open shots when they are given to him. He can't finish through contact in the lane, and this is particularly troublesome given that he isn't getting much respect from the refs anymore either. He routinely gives up open or semi-contested shots and opts to pass the ball out more (often to well-guarded teammates) because he feels he needs to be more of a "facilitator," but the problem is he can't facilitate if he isn't perceived as a scoring threat.
Really? I saw a few stepback threes in the GS loss and a few in the PHX loss! Both which make me shake my head. Poor shot selection maybe not at times, but he can't drive or finish or get fouled like he used to, thats the problem and I miss that part of him now! He doesn't attack nearly as good as he did now! Thats why he is not getting the fouls he did is because he is settling for bs shots and outside shots instead of slashing in and forcing the issue. His body is tired now IMO. I agree on the rest though you said, not a bad post overall there.

[Bruno]

Over 15 games? Considering how bad he's been shooting/playing and how much of the offense runs through him, I expected a much bigger difference, tbh.

It's over 16 games.

Without Ginobili, Spurs are outscoring opponents by 13.7 points per 48 minutes.
With Ginobili, Spurs are outscored by 1.9 points per 48 minutes.

I'm not sure how you can say it isn't a huge difference.

[Capt Bringdown]

Spurs are nuts to offer Manu more years. Time to say goodbye to Manu.

[Pop]

It's over 16 games.

Without Ginobili, Spurs are outscoring opponents by 13.7 points per 48 minutes.
With Ginobili, Spurs are outscored by 1.9 points per 48 minutes.

I'm not sure how you can say it isn't a huge difference.

Damn, playing with the scruby PGs doesn't help but still pretty bad.

The thing is I don't get why Pop went with Nando, giving us two equally slow SG on D...

[KaiRMD1]

Well, considering the top teams rely on one-two players to lead them, the Spurs are in somewhat good hands since we have four guys we really should be relying on (Timmy, Tony, Tiago & Kawhi). If Manu can get into form along with everybody else, I don't see why we can't make a serious push. Hell, our first round match up only relies on one guy.

[intlspurshk]

But I don't see the second all stars in this team apart from TP right now. SPURS do have a lot of good but not great players at present. Sometimes, TD can play at all star level but can't give such performance consistently. SPURS only have one real big player right now

[Creation88]

Manu's been god awful all year (save a few spurt of games he tied together).

it's not just his shooting. he's making exceedingly horrible decisions with the ball (turnovers), terrible position on defense (getting burned: i.e. Utah tied 3 to send it to OT), and even off the ball (not taking the ball from Tim at the top of the key last night instead of in the paint where defenders were waiting)

[SenorSpur]

I'm more worried about Pop's reluctance to accept Manu's decline, tbh..

I understand that Manu has earned the benefit of the doubt, he's a HOFer, but at some point the team needs to accept that his role should be reduced..

Kawhi was having a good game up until the mid-3rd, where Pop subbed him out..Leonard didn't touch the ball again for what seemed like an eternity, and his only shots in the 4th were spot-up 3s with the clock windin down(he deserves blame for that hideous shot that hit the side of the backboard, obviously)..

We have reached the point where Leonard needs to be involved in the offense every few plays, tbh..the Spurs can't allow 6-7 minutes to elapse until they run a play for him..

:tu

[Phenomanul]

Players just don't fall off a cliff in a couple of months... Ginobili was playing really well this past summer (less than 8 months ago).

It's a mental thing with Manu, and he knows it... it's also taking a bit longer than normal for him to overcome it... but overcome he will.

Too many "Chicken Littles" in here tbh...

[jag]

Another issue about Manu being bad is that it significantly hurt the team.

+/- post all star game:
Splitter: +128
Duncan: +106
Leonard: +106
Green: +95
Parker: +76
Joseph: +25
Bonner: +23
Neal: +21
Jackson: +20
Baynes: -7
Blair: -9
Diaw: -12
Ginobili: -16
De Colo: -67

:corn:

[ElNono]

It's over 16 games.

Without Ginobili, Spurs are outscoring opponents by 13.7 points per 48 minutes.
With Ginobili, Spurs are outscored by 1.9 points per 48 minutes.

I'm not sure how you can say it isn't a huge difference.

Seeing he averages 24mpg, that's a differential of -6 per game. That's why I was saying only -6 cumulative didn't add up. Unless I'm missing something.

[TheGoldStandard]

Manu stunk it up, too many minutes for a non productive player especially only going 1 for 7. Yeah he didn't over shoot but the shots he did take were crap and it's all about confidence. Parker should have had the ball in his hand on the last play or even Kawhi. Lets reward the players that are making shots.

[Strategic]

When Manu was leading the team who the hell needed numbers to know it? Maybe he's making bad decisions because he just can't quite get to where he could when he was 30, go figure. When the team is on the court in the final minutes, one or two bad decisions can cost the game. Can you execute in crunch time or not? One out of three ain't good! It doesn't matter if his numbers aren't that much "off" of what they used to be, if he F's up in the last two minutes, ................... I respect the hell out of what the man has accomplished, but.....

[will_spurs]

Seeing he averages 24mpg, that's a differential of -6 per game. That's why I was saying only -6 cumulative didn't add up. Unless I'm missing something.

Bruno is saying Manu is -1.9 per 48 minutes. Since he plays only 24mpg, that's an average of 1.9 / 2 = 0.95 per game

0.95 * 16 = 15.2

This is in line with the overall -16 figure Bruno posted on last page (there's probably some rounding here and there to explain the difference)

[ElNono]

Bruno is saying Manu is -1.9 per 48 minutes. Since he plays only 24mpg, that's an average of 1.9 / 2 = 0.95 per game

0.95 * 16 = 15.2

This is in line with the overall -16 figure Bruno posted on last page (there's probably some rounding here and there to explain the difference)

I got that part of the equation, which is while Manu actually is on the floor. Considering his current suckitude, -1ppg differential looks low to me.

I think what Bruno is arguing now is the Spurs +/- production with Manu on the court vs off the court, which translates to the numbers he posted above.

[Bruno]

I got that part of the equation, which is while Manu actually is on the floor. Considering his current suckitude, -1ppg differential looks low to me.

Spurs are one of the best team in the NBA, so being outscored, even if it's only by 1.9 points per 48 minutes is damn bad.

Manu has been individually bad since he came back from his hamstring injury and he has hurt Spurs. If you look at Spurs games and at the stats, I'm not sure how you can disagree with that. Once this analysis is done, there are some more interesting questions:
- Will Manu play better this season and especially in the playoffs?
- What Pop can do to help Manut o get out of this slump?
- If Manu keeps sucking, what Pop can do to minimize the negative impact it has on Spurs?

[Bruno]

there's probably some rounding here and there to explain the difference

Spurs also played 3 OT games in that stretch which explain the difference.

[jag]

Players just don't fall off a cliff in a couple of months... Ginobili was playing really well this past summer (less than 8 months ago).

It's a mental thing with Manu, and he knows it... it's also taking a bit longer than normal for him to overcome it... but overcome he will.



I agree with this, to a degree. I think he'll snap out of it and go on a nice run of games, but I think it would be foolish to ever expect consistent production on a game-to-game basis. He's just pressing too hard right now. As soon as shots starts falling it'll open up other parts of his game.

[024]

Ginobili has indeed been playing like crap all season. But the Spurs need Ginobili to do well in order to go far in the playoffs. Leonard can't take over as the third option until next season. Ginobili has always been a streaky up and down player (usually down = injuries) so hopefully he's getting all of his down play out of the way. He's defended by many posters the same way Kobe nuthuggers defend Kobe. They zero in on a few plays or games where the player did well and completely ignore the inefficiencies and turnovers. The truth is Gionbili hasn't even needed to carry a large load like previous years. He's averaging 23 minutes while Parker and Duncan are both having phenomenal years. Leonard and Splitter have also stepped up to shoulder some of the load this year. Ginobili needs to get his head out of his ass to string together 23 minutes of good basketball. Parker, Duncan, Splitter, and Leonard have all stepped up their game and Ginobili needs to do the same.

[spurtech09]

yeah manu hasn't been playing that well but manu has been getting knocked around and not getting rewarded for it.....the refs have something to do with it and its been going on the last couple of games....I just hope it doesn't travel into the play offs....Just like last night in the rockets game.....

[ElNono]

Spurs are one of the best team in the NBA, so being outscored, even if it's only by 1.9 points per 48 minutes is damn bad.

Even the champ Miami (http://www.82games.com/1213/1213MIA2.HTM) has lineups that get outscored (and include James, Wade, etc). I think they're one of the best teams in the NBA too.


Manu has been individually bad since he came back from his hamstring injury and he has hurt Spurs. If you look at Spurs games and at the stats, I'm not sure how you can disagree with that. Once this analysis is done, there are some more interesting questions:
- Will Manu play better this season and especially in the playoffs?
- What Pop can do to help Manut o get out of this slump?
- If Manu keeps sucking, what Pop can do to minimize the negative impact it has on Spurs?

There's no doubt Manu has been sucking individually lately and that has an impact on the team overall.
I'll go further and tell you he has not had a consistent stretch of games this *entire* season.

1.9 points per 48 though? That's looks pretty low to me. Taking into consideration his shooting slump and his role on the team, I expected a much bigger drop while he was out there. He seemingly can't do anything right now.

[ElNono]

I agree with this, to a degree. I think he'll snap out of it and go on a nice run of games, but I think it would be foolish to ever expect consistent production on a game-to-game basis. He's just pressing too hard right now. As soon as shots starts falling it'll open up other parts of his game.

Couldn't agree more. His shooting is phenomenally bad right now. Even finishing up layups. Gotta snap out of it, and I think the rest of his game will come around.

[cd98]

Regardless of stats, Manu fails the eye test. If he doesn't at least become a super sub (double digit scorer with reasonable shooting percentage), we are in trouble in the playoffs. I'm just not seeing great scoring from the bench since Tiago went in as a starter and Neal got injured. Certainly we have skilled players, but we need to be able to outscore other playoff teams' benches to win a title.

[Bruno]

I'll go further and tell you he has not had a consistent stretch of games this *entire* season.

After a slow start due to a back injury in training camp, Manu was good before hurting his hamstring.

Manu from November 15th to January 13th (30 games):
13.9 points (.453 FG%, .406 3p%, .846 FT%)
4.1 rebounds
4.7 assists
1.5 steals
2.0 turnover
in 25.2 mpg




1.9 points per 48 though? That's looks pretty low to me. Taking into consideration his shooting slump and his role on the team, I expected a much bigger drop while he was out there. He seemingly can't do anything right now.

The drop isn't 1.9 points per 48 minutes, it's 15.6 points per 48 minutes (-1.9 - +13.7).

[Darius McCrary]

It's mostly his jump shooting. Same with Jackson, tbh

[Pop]

The thing is the whole second unit feels dysfunctional, I think inserting a big target like Baynes could really help everyone, especially a pass first player like Manu. And play Cojo next to him, to surround him with solid defenders.

[hater]

It's mostly his jump shooting. Same with Jackson, tbh

yes, except both Manu + Jackson are struggling at pretty much every other aspect of the game. If you see a player suck at most every aspect you can bet the main issue is either health or mental.

I still believe both Jax and Manu will somehow find a stride in the playoffs. We can only hope or we go no further than round 2.

[ElNono]

After a slow start due to a back injury in training camp, Manu was good before hurting his hamstring.

Manu from November 15th to January 13th (30 games):
13.9 points (.453 FG%, .406 3p%, .846 FT%)
4.1 rebounds
4.7 assists
1.5 steals
2.0 turnover
in 25.2 mpg


I looked too, about a week ago. While the averages (what you posted) look ok, the game-to-game logs aren't as pretty.

Nov 19 vs Clippers: 3-11
Nov 21 vs Boston: 2-8
Nov 23 vs Indiana: 7-18
Nov 25 vs Toronto: 5-15
Dec 1 vs Memphis: 4-15
Dec 5 vs Bucks: 3-10

...and so on. His shooting specifically has been very up and down all season long. His better percentages are actually on games where he limited his shots.


The drop isn't 1.9 points per 48 minutes, it's 15.6 points per 48 minutes (-1.9 - +13.7).

But Manu individually has no influence over the +/- when he's not on the floor (the +13.7). If Tim or Tony have a great night or an off night, what does Manu watching from the bench have to do with that?

Take a look at top 5-man units:
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS2.HTM

Manu is on 10 out of the 20, from those 10, 3 have a negative plus/minus and 7 have a positive plus/minus.

But what's striking about this team, is the top lineup. They cleanup the floor with anybody, and *any* other lineup struggles, comparatively speaking. (top lineup is +123, second best is +35).

Bottom line is that Manu needs to play better, and the bench overall need to improve. But looking at the actual numbers, this team is at it's best when you play Parker-Green-Leonard-Splitter-Duncan for as long as you can. And so getting Tony back in rhythm and up to his usual minutes right now is imperative.

[TheGoldStandard]

How many times can you fill a flat tire that has a puncture and think it's going to be okay? Manu is flat, we keep giving him minutes and touches hoping it'll inflate his confidence and he'll find his shot but it's not working. His 3 point percentage is like 30% from after the all star break and his fg% isn't much better. He turns the ball over frequently because he's pushing too much and his defense is ho hum. He's not attacking the basket and when he does he's not looking to finish but draw contact which doesn't happen because he's not hitting any shots.

[weeks]

One of the downsides to having a big international star player like ginobili.

you have to deal with his biased fans, who are incapable of dealing with his performance rationally or objectively.

there's no question that elnono wouldn't be going to this lengths to try and 'splain away a performance from someone else on the team who just happened to hail from a different hemisphere.
rockets have this problem too.

[letmk]

For those of you who said that Manu will play much better or even like his old self, would you bet on him for that if you were in Vegas?

I know it's impossible to quantify "playing better", just use this as an analogy. Like I will bet on Tony to play like a Top 10 player during playoffs, but I might not dare bet on him playing like a top 5 players, which he is during regular season. This is called educated guess. You can't just follow the "He is Manu Ginobili" or "anything is possible" logic.

More importantly, the Spurs have other pieces (like Kawhi and Splitter) who can take more responsibilities. So Manu may or may not get back to himself --- every Spurs fan hopes he can --- but the Spurs team should not bank their season on that. They have a MVP candidate (although with LeBron, everyone else's chance is remote), a top 10 player, several young and coming pieces, and a long-term system. Yes, the Heat is the heavy favorite; yes, the Thunder and the Nuggets are looking food too, but the Spurs still have a fighting chance which should be treasured.

[ElNono]

One of the downsides to having a big international star player like ginobili.

you have to deal with his biased fans, who are incapable of dealing with his performance rationally or objectively.

there's no question that elnono wouldn't be going to this lengths to try and 'splain away a performance from someone else on the team who just happened to hail from a different hemisphere.
rockets have this problem too.

I've made no excuses for Ginobili's poor play. I've said throughout this thread he's played like shit.

How about you learn to read before you tell somebody else to think rationally?

[hater]

:lol ElNono hitting rock bottom

[ElNono]

I'm even saying his shooting sucked for almost the entire season and peeps thinks I'm still defending him :lol

[rascal]

Players just don't fall off a cliff in a couple of months... Ginobili was playing really well this past summer (less than 8 months ago).

It's a mental thing with Manu, and he knows it... it's also taking a bit longer than normal for him to overcome it... but overcome he will.

Too many "Chicken Littles" in here tbh...

Can't compare the inferior Summer Olympics with the NBA.

[racm]

Gotta be mental at this point, he takes too many step back 3s to my liking and needs to drive more.

Oh well, whatever keeps him healthy in the playoffs I suppose.

[Chinook]

So are we sure that starting Splitter was the right idea? Sure, the Spurs' defense is improved, but the bench has been down-right anemic. Maybe Bonner/Splitter as the bench duo would help fix a few issues. I can't say that I really like the big rotation as it stands now.

[TheGoldStandard]

So are we sure that starting Splitter was the right idea? Sure, the Spurs' defense is improved, but the bench has been down-right anemic. Maybe Bonner/Splitter as the bench duo would help fix a few issues. I can't say that I really like the big rotation as it stands now.

Splitter and Duncan will get tons of minutes in the playoffs so its good to get him used to playing with the first team and develop that chemistry. The second unit is just there to give players rest and protect a lead, hopefully the bench learns how to score in there short rotation.

[hater]

I believe Splitter + Duncan are the most productively efficient 2 bigmen combination in the league

[Chinook]

Splitter and Duncan will get tons of minutes in the playoffs so its good to get him used to playing with the first team and develop that chemistry. The second unit is just there to give players rest and protect a lead, hopefully the bench learns how to score in there short rotation.

I think bench production is going to be critical to the team's playoff chances. It's not something to overlook because they won't play as much as they do now.


I believe Splitter + Duncan are the most productively efficient 2 bigmen combination in the league

Agree with this, but that's looking at it in a vacuum. I don't know if the team flows a well in it's present form. Splitter and Duncan starting has been fine for them, but it's still really messed up the rotation.

[Chinook]

A lot of that has to do with with who is on the court with him when he is playing.

I'm not a fan of that excuse. If you look at the aggregate plus-minus stats for everyone on the team, it suggests that Manu may be making the other bench players worse, and not the other way around. Also, Ginobili's been playing big minutes with the starters recently.

[therealtruth]

I believe Splitter + Duncan are the most productively efficient 2 bigmen combination in the league

Pop robbed us from seeing that for two seasons.

[Bruno]

I looked too, about a week ago. While the averages (what you posted) look ok, the game-to-game logs aren't as pretty.

Nov 19 vs Clippers: 3-11
Nov 21 vs Boston: 2-8
Nov 23 vs Indiana: 7-18
Nov 25 vs Toronto: 5-15
Dec 1 vs Memphis: 4-15
Dec 5 vs Bucks: 3-10

...and so on. His shooting specifically has been very up and down all season long. His better percentages are actually on games where he limited his shots.


In this 30 games game stretch, he had:
- 6 games shooting .300 or below. (20% of the games)
- 9 games shooting .350 or below. (30% of the games)
- 10 games shooting .400 or below. (33.3% of the dames)

Now, if you compare to Ginobili best regular season (07-08, 73 games). In 07-08, he had:
- 12 games shooting .300 or below. (16.4% of the games)
- 17 games shooting .350 or below. (23.3% of the games)
- 26 games shooting .400 or below. (35.6% of the games)

The up and down shooting isn't that different that was Manu did in his prime.



But Manu individually has no influence over the +/- when he's not on the floor (the +13.7). If Tim or Tony have a great night or an off night, what does Manu watching from the bench have to do with that?

Manu is playing some minutes with Tim and Tony so when they are doing well, it helps his +/- but it's sure that as a bench player it helps him less than for a player like Green. Now, you can say other bench players struggling hurt Manu's +/- but you can also say that playing against bench players, that are weaker should help his numbers.

Now, there is a stat that show that bench struggles is mostly because of Ginobili's poor play:
In the stretch of 30 Manu's good games identified before, Manu is +200 (+12.7 points per 48 minutes).
In the other games with Manu (27 games), Manu is +26 (+2.1 points per 48 minutes).



Take a look at top 5-man units:
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS2.HTM

Manu is on 10 out of the 20, from those 10, 3 have a negative plus/minus and 7 have a positive plus/minus.

These are full seasons stats. Manu +/- numbers on the season are fine because of his 30 good games stretch.

[emanueldavidginobili]

All I got to say is everyone stop complaining we all know hes not playing up to his potential but hes HEALTHY be happy

[letmk]

All I got to say is everyone stop complaining we all know hes not playing up to his potential but hes HEALTHY be happy

I don't know about others, but to me, I rarely criticize Manu himself for his play -- sans the double team on Al Jefferson which I don't think it's related to aged body or legs at all -- I only want Pop to see that and rely less on Manu.

[ElNono]

In this 30 games game stretch, he had:
- 6 games shooting .300 or below. (20% of the games)
- 9 games shooting .350 or below. (30% of the games)
- 10 games shooting .400 or below. (33.3% of the dames)

Now, if you compare to Ginobili best regular season (07-08, 73 games). In 07-08, he had:
- 12 games shooting .300 or below. (16.4% of the games)
- 17 games shooting .350 or below. (23.3% of the games)
- 26 games shooting .400 or below. (35.6% of the games)

The up and down shooting isn't that different that was Manu did in his prime.

Now you made me go carve up the numbers. :D

And you're right. BTW, what I meant by consistency is run of games where he scored 'well' (say .400 or better)

In 07-08 he had 5 streaks of 4+ games where he shot .400 or better. This season, despite the suckitude, he already has 4. Surprisingly enough, the last one was from March 1st to March 8th (which included the Chicago game, which he played fairly well).

Obviously, the difference is that what you listed is supposed to be his worst for 07-08 vs his supposed best for this season.


Manu is playing some minutes with Tim and Tony so when they are doing well, it helps his +/- but it's sure that as a bench player it helps him less than for a player like Green. Now, you can say other bench players struggling hurt Manu's +/- but you can also say that playing against bench players, that are weaker should help his numbers.

Now, there is a stat that show that bench struggles is mostly because of Ginobili's poor play:
In the stretch of 30 Manu's good games identified before, Manu is +200 (+12.7 points per 48 minutes).
In the other games with Manu (27 games), Manu is +26 (+2.1 points per 48 minutes).

Hmm, while Manu playing better obviously will affect his plus/minus, I don't understand how you connect that to 'the bench struggling'.
And the reason is that Manu has actually played the most of his minutes with starters.

w/ Tim and Tony (474:59)
w/ Diaw-Parker (327:12)
w/ Diaw-Splitter (308:53)
w/ Duncan-Leonard (289:15)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01/lineups/2013/

There's actually not one single top-10 (minutes) 5-man lineup he's been on that doesn't include at least one starter. (this is actually easier to see on the 3-man lineups listing)


These are full seasons stats. Manu +/- numbers on the season are fine because of his 30 good games stretch.

He wasn't really exceptional in those 30 games, merely pedestrian compared to his actual best.

[Bruno]

Hmm, while Manu playing better obviously will affect his plus/minus, I don't understand how you connect that to 'the bench struggling'.
And the reason is that Manu has actually played the most of his minutes with starters.

w/ Tim and Tony (474:59)
w/ Diaw-Parker (327:12)
w/ Diaw-Splitter (308:53)
w/ Duncan-Leonard (289:15)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01/lineups/2013/

There's actually not one single top-10 (minutes) 5-man lineup he's been on that doesn't include at least one starter. (this is actually easier to see on the 3-man lineups listing)

Well, it has a lot to do with most of bench players being in and out of the rotation.

For example, 11 of the 12 most used 5-men lineups with Manu have Parker in it while Manu has played 48.7% of his minutes paired with Parker. It could be easily explained when you realize that the backup PG spot has been shared between Neal, Mills, De Colo, Joseph and Manu himself.

One of Manu's task is to carry the bench when Parker and Duncan are resting at the juncture of the first and second quarters and at the juncture of the third and fourth quarters. He was usually damn great at it but it hasn't been the case since the hamstring injury. It's obviously not his only. For reference, he is playing 37% of his minutes without both Tim and Tony on the court.

[Russo21]

Manu: "I'm too old for this shit"

[weeks]

I've made no excuses for Ginobili's poor play.

the sad thing is, he really believes this.

no one wants to see ginobili do more or play better than me, believe me. he's one of my favorite players on the team and in the entire NBA.
he's just getting old, but can't mentally accept it. so someone else will have to make that call for his sake.
it's not like there aren't glorious precedents - (jordan)

[Slippy]

There was one postive out of the Mnau's last game. As Timvp pointed out in the grades thread, he minimised his mistakes playing with-in himself. Compared to how he's been the last few weeks, the helter skelter Manu toned it down and didn't press. A step in the right drection that has nothing to do with Age or decline. He needs to stick to it until the shooting and confidence comes back.

[ElNono]

the sad thing is, I really didn't even read your posts in this thread

That much is clear, tbh

[ElNono]

Well, it has a lot to do with most of bench players being in and out of the rotation.

For example, 11 of the 12 most used 5-men lineups with Manu have Parker in it while Manu has played 48.7% of his minutes paired with Parker. It could be easily explained when you realize that the backup PG spot has been shared between Neal, Mills, De Colo, Joseph and Manu himself.

Sure, that's certainly part of the analysis. The reason the backup PG has been a constant shuffle is because Neal has been hurt and hasn't played well at all. Neither Mills, DeColo or CoJo have earned the spot (all three have been very limited when it comes to contributing offense). Pop has also not found production in Blair (who mostly plays limited minutes in the 1st half, if at all these days), and Bonner is clocking in the fewest minutes per game since his first two years as a Spur. Diaw is the only bench guy that has had a consistent production with the bench unit, and he really isn't a scorer either.

And by that I don't mean Manu is off the hook, but that he actually carries a heavier load for per minute bench production than seasons' past. Which IMO is the reason why the most worrying aspect is his shooting slump.


One of Manu's task is to carry the bench when Parker and Duncan are resting at the juncture of the first and second quarters and at the juncture of the third and fourth quarters. He was usually damn great at it but it hasn't been the case since the hamstring injury. It's obviously not his only. For reference, he is playing 37% of his minutes without both Tim and Tony on the court.

That's actually what I was pointing out... He's playing almost 2 out of 3 minutes with both Tony and Tim on the court. His horrid plus/minus should also translate to those guys, but it really has not. Or you could argue the other's guys plus/minus production would cover Manu's ass, but given the numbers you posted, they have not. There's simply much easier and clear indicators about Manu's individual struggle and that's his shooting stats and turnovers. And those are certainly not pretty over the last 16 games or so.

[weeks]

That much is clear, tbh
No one believes for a second you'd spend this much time and energy trying to 'splain away the decline of a player born in Detroit.

[ElNono]

No one believes for a second I read anything in this thread, but let's make this about you instead of the topic at hand

lol rational and objective

[MR-Clutch]

Not worried. Every year, Manu has a series of games where posters jump off the cliff, and resurrect the "Will Manu ever score 20 pts again" thread, right before Manu shuts all cliff jumpers up by going into god mode. It could be the next game, or it could be 5 from now, or not even until playoffs, but Manu will find his rhythm and make the cliff jumpers look stupid as always. Mark my words, Manu will be back.

[hater]

no one wants to see ginobili do more or play better than me, believe me. he's one of my favorite players on the team and in the entire NBA.
he's just getting old, but can't mentally accept it. so someone else will have to make that call for his sake.
it's not like there aren't glorious precedents - (jordan)

Amen brother. been preaching that for months

[Strategic]

Not worried. Every year, Manu has a series of games where posters jump off the cliff, and resurrect the "Will Manu ever score 20 pts again" thread, right before Manu shuts all cliff jumpers up by going into god mode. It could be the next game, or it could be 5 from now, or not even until playoffs, but Manu will find his rhythm and make the cliff jumpers look stupid as always. Mark my words, Manu will be back.


So let everyone else carry the load during the season. Then in the playoffs(or every fourth or fifth game), Manu will go into "hero mode" and you can worship him. sweet. I guess.

[Obstructed_View]

The biggest problem I've seen from Ginobili the last month or so is when he dribbles the ball from the top of the key and ends up doubled, usually after a pick is set. The ball is stolen in traffic, he attempts a cross court pass that's deflected, sometimes compounded by his jumping to make the pass, or he's forced into a bad shot that's highly contested. Once in a while he makes a difficult pass back to the other guard at the top of the key, which doesn't improve the chances of a shot, especially if it's the 85 percent of the time that it's someone other than Parker he passes to.*

If Manu can't split the double or force them under so he can shoot, then the only players that should be running screens for him at this point are Splitter, and, if you insist on having Manu handle the ball off the bench, Blair, because they're the best at rolling to the basket when the defenders leave them alone.

Barring that, I'd much prefer everyone clear the fuck out and let him go one on one instead of bringing a big and his defender up so they can crowd him into a mistake. It's entirely possible that someone could look at his poor production and point a finger toward the guys setting the shitty picks and not being any kind of an offensive threat.


*some of you will remember Memphis killing the Spurs with this defense in the playoffs, against all of the Spurs' guards.

[Brazil]

strangely enough the fact Bonner and Blair not logging significant minutes is hurting Manu's game. Matt opens the lane for Manu's drives to the basket and Blair has always plaid well with Manu on P&R sets for the reason mentioned by O_v

[superbigtime]

It's gettin ugly.

[Obstructed_View]

strangely enough the fact Bonner and Blair not logging significant minutes is hurting Manu's game. Matt opens the lane for Manu's drives to the basket and Blair has always plaid well with Manu on P&R sets for the reason mentioned by O_v

Bonner would be the screen guy in my scenario, so unless he rolls back up to the three point line and can get a shot off, he's pretty useless in that situation. Additionally, I can't say I recall having seen the Spurs run that.

[ElNono]

strangely enough the fact Bonner and Blair not logging significant minutes is hurting Manu's game. Matt opens the lane for Manu's drives to the basket and Blair has always plaid well with Manu on P&R sets for the reason mentioned by O_v

Couldn't disagree more. Manu's best companion from the bench last season was simply Tiago. An actual big that both could play D and garnered enough attention on O to stop teams from focusing solely on Manu, IMO.

[Brazil]

Couldn't disagree more. Manu's best companion from the bench last season was simply Tiago. An actual big that both could play D and garnered enough attention on O to stop teams from focusing solely on Manu, IMO.

my point is solely regarding O. For the rest, yes Tiago draw attention on O but near the rim, driving inside is the bread and butter of Manu's game and I just feel Tiago, Tim and Diaw that are the bigs with whom he is spending the most of the time on the court don't spread the floor enough for him.

don't get me wrong here I'm not saying playblair or playbonner, I'm just saying the fact they don't log any minutes anymore can be a factor.

[Brazil]

Bonner would be the screen guy in my scenario, so unless he rolls back up to the three point line and can get a shot off, he's pretty useless in that situation. Additionally, I can't say I recall having seen the Spurs run that.

I didn't suggest Spurs to use Bonner as the screen guy, I was solely pointing out that Bonner and Blair minutes limitation for Diaw and Tiago might hurt a bit Manu's O game.

[tmtcsc]

I sincerely hope Manu gets his mojo back tonight. Reduce the turnovers, commit to defense and hit clutch baskets when and if needed. Shake the f'n rust already and just play.

[TMTTRIO]

not counting on it. Let's just hope someone else off the bench steps up big time and Manu will play less.

[hater]

I'm more conservative. Manu please don't injure yourself or any of your teammates out there tonight. thanks

[Obstructed_View]

I didn't suggest Spurs to use Bonner as the screen guy, I was solely pointing out that Bonner and Blair minutes limitation for Diaw and Tiago might hurt a bit Manu's O game.

If you suggested that Bonner should be in the game more, then you sort of did. There are three guys behind the three point line when Manu runs those screen and rolls, one in each corner and the other guard at the top. If you put Bonner in one of those spots you free up a defender to cheat off Bonner because they know he can't penetrate. Defenders welcome the difficult, cross-court pass because that's where Manu turns over the ball.

Now that you mention it, the Spurs probably shouldn't run that play in smallball lineups at all.

[freetiago]

started out decent in the first then shit the bed the first of the way
key turnover and tripped over himself again and almost lost it on the last play

[TMTTRIO]

I'm counting the days until he retires. Hopefully it'll be soon. It's been really painful watching him.

[ElNono]

decent 1st half... he was great when tony went to get xrays in the 3rd... clutch 3... finally 45% shooting... the 3 turnovers were all poor decisions, IMO, but steps in the right direction...

[jestersmash]

Micro-steps, but steps nonetheless I suppose.

[Darius McCrary]

At what point is SpursTalk in denial about the fact that Manu is finished?

[emanueldavidginobili]

I really don't care how bad or good Manu plays..When it comes playoff time and Manu is still playing poorly, then I am very very concerned but until its all good as long as we win

[admiralfats]

he's forcing passes that aren't there, but mostly his shooting has just been dreadful. if he gets his outside touch back, he'll be useful. and needs to stop turning the damn ball over

[tim_duncan_fan]

That ball was totally off of Manu. You can't just run into the lane, fall over and throw the ball out of bounds with the game on the line. Make a real fucking play, Manu. And for the love of god, get your damned handles/passes back under control. This shit is getting annoying.

We survived his idiocy.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

A lot of spoiled Spurs fans is all I'm reading. Can't believe how quickly people can turn.

[HI-FI]

after seeing those crazy Argentinian fans chant for Manu in the postgame, I think I understand the devotion of Nono and CoM a little better.

:downspin: for your countrymen!!!!

[TheGoldStandard]

Still haven't been able to put it all together and that's really going to start hindering them as we get teams that are gearing up for playoff runs. Miami on Sunday will be a rude awakening if we turn the ball over 18 times.

[Sean Cagney]

after seeing those crazy Argentinian fans chant for Manu in the postgame, I think I understand the devotion of Nono and CoM a little better.

:downspin: for your countrymen!!!!

Yeah thats fine, but you still can see what the truth is and no need to be delusional when it comes to your fave player, take the sunglasses off and call it. He is playing like shit lately and I know he is from their country but truth is truth.

Some damn homer from there on youtube said the Spurs don't sniff the finals without Manu those years! I nearly wanted to go smack him and said yeah I mean there is a guy named Duncan too who single handedly willed them to the finals and won in 03 (They were an old vet and younger team without another superstar!) and he also dominated in 99 before Manu was there, I am sure he had some to do with the Spurs winning.
That last 3 helped, no?

That turned out to be the game since the Spurs can't buy a damn bucket with under a minute to go this year it seems. I have never seen them this bad down the stretch in a while.

[ElNono]

after seeing those crazy Argentinian fans chant for Manu in the postgame, I think I understand the devotion of Nono and CoM a little better.

:downspin: for your countrymen!!!!

I've been calling a spade a spade, tbh... not sure what you mean... didn't see that part of the telecast either...

[HI-FI]

I've been calling a spade a spade, tbh... not sure what you mean... didn't see that part of the telecast either...
i'm mainly just busting your chops. earlier you kept saying these signs were non-issues, how the B team was limiting him. least you are acknowledging something now. hopefully he picks it up in the playoffs.

[DarrinS]

That last 3 helped, no?

[crc21209]

Manu's 3 with 1:25 to go was HUGE. Hopefully that raise's his confidence for these upcoming games...

[Sean Cagney]

I've been calling a spade a spade, tbh... not sure what you mean... didn't see that part of the telecast either...

Yep you are a good fan, some I have met are a little too passive on calling a spade a spade and never say a bad word about their contryman. You though are fair.

[ElNono]

i'm mainly just busting your chops. earlier you kept saying these signs were non-issues, how the B team was limiting him. least you are acknowledging something now. hopefully he picks it up in the playoffs.

tbh, his shooting got to a point that was no spinning that shit. It also coincided with TP and Neal going down, which was the worst moment possible. I'll be happy if he keeps hitting at 45%+ on 2s going forward. I think the turnovers will eventually go away if he's confident in his shot. Just a guess.

[DarrinS]

Manu's 3 with 1:25 to go was HUGE. Hopefully that raise's his confidence for these upcoming games...

I hope so. He's been in a funk lately. Another title will surely depend on his game.

[DarrinS]

People calling for his early retirement are retarded.

[HI-FI]

tbh, his shooting got to a point that was no spinning that shit. It also coincided with TP and Neal going down, which was the worst moment possible. I'll be happy if he keeps hitting at 45%+ on 2s going forward. I think the turnovers will eventually go away if he's confident in his shot. Just a guess.
without doing a video comparison, he looks a bit slower. I could be wrong, but he doesn't seem to get as many crafty or explosive layups as he used to, which is normal considering his age. but they always say a layup can get your jumpshots going, so maybe that's part of it.

if he can at least be crafty and nasty on D for the playoffs, I won't mind a reduction in shots. though if he can turn it on for a few games in the playoffs, it could be huge.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Anyone that is saying I cant wait for Manu Ginobili to retire should not be able to post on this site.

[emanueldavidginobili]

And I hope everyone getting on him know that, If Manu doesn't play like Manu we are going no where in the playoffs. Ive been seeing people saying bench him, put him on the end of the bench. WE ARE GOING NO WHERE WITHOUT HIM.

[Man In Black]

Work in progress, he played more within himself and really, a team as athletic as the Nuggs should make it that Manu has to pay extra attention. Against a team playing with an ego, the individuals on the court won't put in the extra effort to stop the Spurs. The Nuggets, as evidenced by their recent win streak play as cohesive as any other team in the MIX for a title.
I won't say he's finished. 1 month of up and down basketball isn't enough to convince me of anything. Parker played well, Duncan played decent, Green shot the lights out from 3 and yet, when it really mattered, it was the defense of the Spurs that won out. Refs could have called a handful of fouls on the Nuggets when it came to defending Ginobili. I ain't saying that it was as bad as this:

Near the end of Game 3, an obviously frustrated Carmelo basically clotheslined Ginobili as he attacked the basket one last time. Anthony was ejected.

And after the game, an even more frustrated Karl said of Ginobili: "I'm going to put in a tape and show my son how to play basketball – just put your head down and run into people. I guess that's the new brand of basketball. It's not very pretty. He just goes in there and throws his arms up in the air and throws his elbows at us. He hits you as much as you hit him."
But man, Manu got pushed down to the ground a lot, it was almost comical, but what he did was simply get up and play harder. Okay, so maybe the days of 15 points in 10 minutes won't come as frequent, it's cool as long as his play helps elevate the others, if it does, I'll take it...turnovers and all.

[freetiago]

theres 0 evidence to say were going nowhere without him tbh
Spurs played their best last season with ginobili injured most of the time
the only thing stopping them from winning the title last season was the roleplayers disappearing act in the wcf
Manu had his worst playoffs ever since his rookie season

[TheGoldStandard]

He's due for an above average game.

[SayTown]

It isn't so much that Manu is turning the ball over since he has always been a high risk player, but why do all of his turnovers seem to end in transition dunks.

[ElNono]

without doing a video comparison, he looks a bit slower. I could be wrong, but he doesn't seem to get as many crafty or explosive layups as he used to, which is normal considering his age. but they always say a layup can get your jumpshots going, so maybe that's part of it.

if he can at least be crafty and nasty on D for the playoffs, I won't mind a reduction in shots. though if he can turn it on for a few games in the playoffs, it could be huge.

He isn't as quick and what ends up happening is that what used to be a sure layup and sometimes an and1 ends up being a blocked shot. I think refs are giving him less the benefit of the doubt too, which is understandable as you age (has happened to Tim too).

But above all, he's been changing his game the last few seasons as more of a shooter and an assist man. His shooting has been crap in this stretch, and while the assists more or less have been there, the rest of the bench since Neal has been out has had a hard time putting the ball in the basket, which reflects poor on him too. There's really not much to add about the turnovers. They've been a problem and they're mostly on him. A lot of those plays are scripted Spurs plays and there shouldn't be a fuckup, period.

[TheGoldStandard]

Its understandable that he is a step slower but when he gets into the lane he's been real active about trying to draw fouls rather than just finishing strong and playing through the contact.

[jestersmash]

Here's my gripe with Manu. He's still clearly capable of penetrating towards the rim with his eurostep, even if he can't finish all that well.

What happens these days is he'll use his eurostep sparingly and try to finish whenever he does. And, if he wants to go into "facilitator mode," he'll hover around the 3 point line and dribble "east-west" instead of towards the basket, at which point he's inevitably hedged or doubled (temporarily) and he throws a pass to well-covered teammate.

I'd like to see him attack the basket with the eurostep looking to pass. That'd be a hell of a lot more effective than what he's doing right now.

Have Tiago or someone follow him down the middle towards the rim as he attacks with his eurostep. I don't see that from him anymore.

He did penetrate towards the rim and passed baseline to Kawhi who got a clean look for a 3, at least.

[ElNono]

FWIW, Manu's 03-04 playoffs were worse than 11-12 by pretty much any measure.

He also averaged 18ppg in the WCF last season, shooting 50% from the field and 42% from downtown. He wasn't really needed in the first two rounds.

Hopefully he still has some juice left for that kind of production in the rounds we need him to step up.

[ElNono]

He did penetrate towards the rim and passed baseline to Kawhi who got a clean look for a 3, at least.

That's one of the scripted plays I was talking about. There should be no reason for him not to execute those properly. He's not even asked to finish those.

[emanueldavidginobili]

theres 0 evidence to say were going nowhere without him tbh
Spurs played their best last season with ginobili injured most of the time
the only thing stopping them from winning the title last season was the roleplayers disappearing act in the wcf
Manu had his worst playoffs ever since his rookie season

We are not getting out of the West without Manu playing like Manu. FACT

[Man In Black]

The thing is that with him not being as young as he used to be, he is not as unpredictable especially in late game situations. Pop shouldn't use that trick everytime late. He doesn't we know, but it seems like he uses it too much.
The balance is when Kawhi attacks early and often, so much so that when Manu attacks they still have to stay home to defend Kawhi. If the spacing is good, Manu should be able to get off the shot. The missed dunk tonight shows that he can get to the rim. That is a lot of long arms to go through.

[Sean Cagney]

We are not getting out of the West without Manu playing like Manu. FACT

In that case we are fucked.. I mean I never expected us to get outta the West but Manu is playing horrible right now and doesn't seem to be righting the ship.

[emanueldavidginobili]

In that case we are fucked.. I mean I never expected us to get outta the West but Manu is playing horrible right now and doesn't seem to be righting the ship.

I mean I'm sure he will come through in the playoffs I'm just sick of people on this site saying we don't need Ginobili bench him blah blah blah...if he ain't playing like manu ill be surprised if we get out the second round, the west is loaded this season.

[Slippy]

I'm counting the days until he retires. Hopefully it'll be soon. It's been really painful watching him.

Spurs win or lose you , you focus on manu . Same old predictable Spurs fans. I'ts kind of fanatical.

The questions we should be asking.

Why does Pop insist on giving teams a headstart by playing our weakest and shortest bigs in the first half. He is gambling , fishing, what-ever fans want to call it. He doing no favours to his team. He's had 3 quarters of a full NBA season to see this. Spurs are constantly having to work extra hard to get back into games.

How come Tony parker couldn't keep up with old man Miller? Also, going 1 on 1 to close out games is not the answer. There were many example where a simple screen had Tony free and an easy jumper.

Why is kawai still not getting more touches?

Why your most verastile big in Tiago Splitter doesn't close out games. Just on his defense alone he should of been out there. That first half rotation from Pop was a headscratcher once again but then he ended up overplaying tiago in the 4th. In the end he had to sit the final 3mins.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

Spurs win or lose you , you focus on manu . Same old predictable Spurs fans. I'ts kind of fanatical.

The questions we should be asking.

Why does Pop insist on giving teams a headstart by playing our weakest and shortest bigs in the first half. He is gambling , fishing, what-ever fans want to call it. He doing no favours to his team. He's had 3 quarters of a full NBA season to see this. Spurs are constantly having to work extra hard to get back into games.

How come Tony parker couldn't keep up with old man Miller? Also, going 1 on 1 to close out games is not the answer. There were many example where a simple screen had Tony free and an easy jumper.

Why is kawai still not getting more touches?

Why your most verastile big in Tiago Splitter doesn't close out games. Just on his defense alone he should of been out there. That first half rotation from Pop was a headscratcher once again but then he ended up overplaying tiago in the 4th. In the end he had to sit the final 3mins.

That's what I've been asking. Tiago was playing really well last night and deserves to be out there in the closing minutes of the game.

[weeks]

no question we need manu. i can't see us coming out of the west without him.

but when people say we need him, they have to be realistic about who he is anymore. he's just not the same player so that manu will never return. but he's still dangerous and if he plays to his potential we are a much deadlier team, no question about it.

[boutons_deux]

Sure hope Tiago can figure out to hit those shots again from directly under the basket.

[kaji157]

I think this last game was a good sign of him recovering, sure, he did have some stupid turnovers but so did everyone else.
It is clear that the bigs he is paired with are not good enough, and that SJax is going through a similar path than Manu. I tell you this, put either Leonard or Green to play with the likes Ginobili usualy plays and they would suck.
Back to Manu, he was pretty efficient from the floor, considering his first two shots were last-moments bad shots of broken plays, in the first one he tried to penetrate and didn´t get the call while being an obvious foul, in the second he was foced into a FT line floater, other than those two he was 4 for 7 on the other shots.
I think we have to all be well aware that he was again able to broke the first line of defense and get a couple of kick out assists, and also hat the dunk he missed he was not short of it, but rather long. Meaning that he was able to dunk the ball but overpowered, crashing the ball with the back of the rim, and not the front of it.
Seems to me he´ll be back shortly. His clutch 3 was also from a broken play that was drawn for a Leonard penetration.

[rjv]

denver is long (as the blazers were back in the sheed days) and that causes havoc in the passing lanes. they create TOs and get easy baskets. all in all manu was pretty steady in closing time and that three he hit was huge. he still has the cajones to take those shots and make them.

[Sean Cagney]

I mean I'm sure he will come through in the playoffs I'm just sick of people on this site saying we don't need Ginobili bench him blah blah blah...if he ain't playing like manu ill be surprised if we get out the second round, the west is loaded this season.
I agree.

[AFBlue]

Tortoise and the hare...this race is far from over.