Has Danny Green Surpassed Ginobili as the 4th Best Player on the Team?

[JingleJangleJingle]

Danny Green saved the Spurs tonight and Ginobili keeps slumping...

[freetiago]

hes surpassed him in the consistency level sadly
better defender and shooter now also

[TheGoldStandard]

^ I think they're tied.

[The ADMIRAL 50]

Uhhhh the four best players on this team are Tony, Tim, Kawhi, and Tiago..

[TMTTRIO]

yes. Manu's a role player now. He should be coming off the end of the bench.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol Green is a spot-up shooter that can't create his own offense and plays decent D..

He has become one of the best shooters in the NBA, but he's virtually useless when he isn't playing with Parker and Duncan, tbh..

If Ginobili's role was relegated to spot-up shooter, he would have even better success, tbh..

[Brunodf]

2/10

[Brazil]

:lol

[KaiRMD1]

^ Yeah and Danny Green is passing Ginobili as fifth

[ElNono]

:tu

[Calispursfan11]

Danny Green? Come on now - borderline scrub/d leaguer turned mildly productive by Pop. Ginobili is an all time great and will step it up if not injured come playoff time. He's not that old tbh. How quickly you all forget Manu. You were saying the same thing about Timmy the past two seasons. LOL @ this thread.

[ElNono]

tbh, his 3 point shot was ON tonight in the 1st half... great to have a streaky guy like that. Just made Denver stay on his toes the rest of the way.

He actually tied a franchise record for 3s made in a half tonight.

[Malice]

Gino is in an epic slump right now. I think we have to reserve judgement until its money ball time (playoffs) before we retire Gino...

[hater]

4th?

try 6th

TP
TD
Kawhi
Tiago
Green
Manu

now of course that would change if you let Green handle the ball. But it's on Pop to find a use for Ginobili that will hopefully take him to being 4th best Spur where he belongs and stop him from looking pathetic

[emanueldavidginobili]

I think Patty and Joseph are better than Manu too

[Thread]

^Kori too.

[SA210]

When Manu is on, he is the best player on the team. Just waiting on him to come around. Hopefully it's soon.

[spursparker9]

If Ginobili is not signed in the off-season, how much money will be left to spend on free agents?

[freetiago]

....@manu (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=3142) haters

manu = toughness needed in playoffs
manu = clutcher then jordan

Player A= career high 48 points and olympic gold
Player B = d-league scrub

[Juggity]

manu = clutcher then jordan


Meh...2006 WCSF game 7.

[spurs1990]

um, I've just as guilty of being frustrated but Manu did throw in a 3 pointer in the final minute...

[Bruno]

Green is for sure limited but he is a terrific fit with this Spurs team with his relatively good defense and his great 3 point shooting.

The best lineup in the NBA is Parker/Green/Kawhi/Duncan/Splitter. They have outscored opponents by 23.4 points per 48 minutes. It's a terrific defensive lineup with 5 above average defenders. Offensively they are fine and Green 3 point shooting with the spacing it brings is a big reason why it works at that end of the court.

[TE]

Manu will be back.

[Arc]

manu's just frustrated. you can see he's trying to get back to how he was before, but nothing's going his way and he's forcing it too much. this results in mistake after mistake. eventually, everything will click and we'll have old manu back.. i hope.

[Kool Bob Love]

Danny Green has to show up in the playoffs before he even cracks the top 5.

TP
Tim
Manu
Kawhi
Tiago

[spurs1990]

Most 3 pointers in Spurs history:

1. 190 Chuck Person 1995-96
2. 172 Chuck Person 1994-95
3. 166 Roger Mason 2008-09
4. 161 Sean Elliott 1995-96
5. 160 Danny Green This year
6. 156 Manu Ginobili 2007-08

And if I'm not mistaken 1995-1997 the line was only 22 feet.

[hater]

Bruno just came in with a b52 and carpet truthed bombed the shit out of manufan :lol

[ElNono]

I just actually pointed that out on the Manu thread when looking at the top 5 man combos for the Spurs this season. While that lineup has been beyond ridiculously good, they just can't all play 48 mins.

And once you take one guy out, all the other 5 man combos are nowhere near as good.

[siraulo23]

Most 3 pointers in Spurs history:

1. 190 Chuck Person 1995-96
2. 172 Chuck Person 1994-95
3. 166 Roger Mason 2008-09
4. 161 Sean Elliott 1995-96
5. 160 Danny Green This year
6. 156 Manu Ginobili 2007-08

And if I'm not mistaken 1995-1997 the line was only 22 feet.

Roger mason :lol

[Darkwaters]

Danny Green has to show up in the playoffs before he even cracks the top 5.

TP
Tim
Manu
Kawhi
Tiago

Seriously, does nobody remember both the Utah and LA Clippers series' last year? Danny was solid in those games.

On another note though, ya'll crazy to think that Danny is better than Ginobili. Manu is in a serious slump, but you can't just erase all of his talent like it never happened. For the moment, Danny is playing better, yes. But long-term, Ginobili is the guy that'll make opponents cringe and hurt in the clutch.

[Monkeyboy14]

Oh my god, shut up. God why are so many people on here such pussies.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Most 3 pointers in Spurs history:

1. 190 Chuck Person 1995-96
2. 172 Chuck Person 1994-95
3. 166 Roger Mason 2008-09
4. 161 Sean Elliott 1995-96
5. 160 Danny Green This year
6. 156 Manu Ginobili 2007-08

And if I'm not mistaken 1995-1997 the line was only 22 feet.

That's in one season if I'm not mistaken Manu is 1st ALL TIME in spurs history with most 3pointers made

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Come on, he is just trolling. It's in response to the Leonard surpassing Manu last week. There is no way Green is better than Leonard or Manu.

[100%duncan]

No.

[Budkin]

Really hope he can get his shit together and stop fucking throwing the ball away every other possession.

[Texas_Ranger]

No. Danny Green is just a shooter, that's all he does good on offense. Also he must be wide open so he can make a shot. He can't dribble, isn't a good passer, can't create his own shot (he did improve in this) and can't finish around the rim on set defense or on a fast break. If Manu was trained just to knock down some open threes I would say he'd do just as good as Danny. But right now Manu must do pretty much everything on offense when there is no real PG around him. He must run Pick n' roles, he must penetrate, must find wide open guys, draw fouls and knock some shots. I think Manu spends like 70% more energy on offense than Danny. I still like Green a lot, at least he does his job good and also plays solid defense, but better than Manu, I don't think so. Yea, Manu is in a slump and he gets me mad every time when he makes a stupid play, but in the playoffs I rather have Manu on the court than Danny.

[Chinook]

No, Green is not a better player than Ginobili. (Neither is Leonard, by the way.)

But Green does do his job better than anyone on the team would.


If Ginobili's role was relegated to spot-up shooter, he would have even better success, tbh..

I think that takes like this are unfounded. Ginobili is just not the floor-spreader than Green is. He's a much better creator for sure, and that's one of the many reasons why he's a better player. But he can't do Green's job better than Green can. Ginobili's also a much more erratic defender. Green gets beat because of mental lapses; Ginobili gets beat due to physical limitations. Those limitations lead to him being a more desperate defender, which can result in some great players but also in some horrible fouls or mistakes.

To me, this is the most important thing people need to realize about Ginobili's aging: Green's not starting because Ginobili's skill is needed on the bench; he's starting because he's a better fit with the starting unit than Ginobili is -- hands down, point blank. If Pop had two Ginobili's and one Green, Danny would still start. Benching Green for Manu's sake would hurt Green and the Spurs.

[letmk]

Seriously, does nobody remember both the Utah and LA Clippers series' last year? Danny was solid in those games.

On another note though, ya'll crazy to think that Danny is better than Ginobili. Manu is in a serious slump, but you can't just erase all of his talent like it never happened. For the moment, Danny is playing better, yes. But long-term, Ginobili is the guy that'll make opponents cringe and hurt in the clutch.

Many people are confusing life-long achievement with current version. MJ is the GOAT for NBA but there were many players better than his Wizards version.

[Darkwaters]

Many people are confusing life-long achievement with current version. MJ is the GOAT for NBA but there were many players better than his Wizards version.

And other people are confusing a slump with being washed up...and a really good game with consistent production that overshadows a former All-Star.

Funny how it's Danny Green that is the benefactor this time. Wasn't it just last season that people were saying he was more Bonner than Horry in the playoffs? Now hes our 4th best player? No, I attest that people are just riding the hot stock of the moment.

[DrSteffo]

No.

[letmk]

And other people are confusing a slump with being washed up...and a really good game with consistent production that overshadows a former All-Star.

Funny how it's Danny Green that is the benefactor this time. Wasn't it just last season that people were saying he was more Bonner than Horry in the playoffs? Now hes our 4th best player? No, I attest that people are just riding the hot stock of the moment.

I'm not arguing for Green-better-than-Manu. I just point out that those people who are arguing for that do not necessarily forget/depreciate how good Manu was.

In terms of my personal view, it has been Kawhi is the 3rd best player and he has to be that role for the Spurs to be successful.

[ChumpDumper]

The current answer is a qualified yes. No need to get bent out of shape about it. Plenty of time for it to change.

[kaji157]

These one trick Ponnies usually dissapear against planning in the PO. That´s why they dissappeared last year.

[Chinook]

I think it's time we address the myth that Danny Green had a horrible playoff run last year.

He began the post-season with a solid series against the Jazz.



Jazz
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
8.5
4
1
0.393742
0.5
1
1
52
1.75
24.5


Per36
12.4898
5.877551
1.469388
0.393742
0.734694
1.469388
1.469388
52
2.571429
36




He followed that up with an outstanding series against the Clippers.




Clippers
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
12.25
4
1.5
0.566919
0.75
0.75
1.5
57
2.75
25.25


Per36
17.46535
5.70297
2.138614
0.566919
1.069307
1.069307
2.138614
57
3.920792
36



And that doesn't even include his defense on Paul. Green was arguably the MVP of that series.

He actually didn't do that badly against the Thunder for the first four games.



Thunder
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
5
3
1
0.266667
0.5
0.75
1
7
1.25
21


Per36
8.571429
5.142857
1.714286
0.266667
0.857143
1.285714
1.714286
7
2.142857
36



Compare that two Ginobili's last four games (I am of the mind that Ginobili is just slumping right now).



Ginobili
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
8.25
3.25
4
0.2865
1.25
0.5
3.25
-20
2.25
27.5


Per36
10.8
4.254545
5.236364
0.2865
1.636364
0.654545
4.254545
-20
2.945455
36



It just seems clear to me that Green had a bad four-game stretch, and Pop panicked and pulled him. He definitely wasn't the player he had been in the Clippers series, but he his play wasn't that bad. Green played for four minutes in each of the next two games, but he failed to score a point.

* Not his true average FG%. That's just the averages of all his FG%s from the series. I was too lazy go back and look up the FGM and FGA to get the real stat.

[Pasta Batman]

Spurs need both of them to play well. That's pretty much it. If they do, Spurs might have a fifth.

[cd021]

:lol Green is a spot-up shooter that can't create his own offense and plays decent D..

He has become one of the best shooters in the NBA, but he's virtually useless when he isn't playing with Parker and Duncan, tbh..

If Ginobili's role was relegated to spot-up shooter, he would have even better success, tbh..

Green is much more of an NBA player than a 3 & D specialists. Manu wouldn't be nearly as good as good in that role. Manu is a scorer not a elite 3 point shooter. Green is hitting 42% of his 3's thats roughly 7% better than the league average.

[cd021]

I think it's time we address the myth that Danny Green had a horrible playoff run last year.

He began the post-season with a solid series against the Jazz.



Jazz
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
8.5
4
1
0.393742
0.5
1
1
52
1.75
24.5


Per36
12.4898
5.877551
1.469388
0.393742
0.734694
1.469388
1.469388
52
2.571429
36




He followed that up with an outstanding series against the Clippers.




Clippers
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
12.25
4
1.5
0.566919
0.75
0.75
1.5
57
2.75
25.25


Per36

17.46535
5.70297
2.138614
0.566919
1.069307
1.069307
2.138614
57
3.920792
36



And that doesn't even include his defense on Paul. Green was arguably the MVP of that series.

He actually didn't do that badly against the Thunder for the first four games.



Thunder
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
5
3
1
0.266667
0.5
0.75
1
7
1.25
21


Per36
8.571429
5.142857
1.714286
0.266667
0.857143
1.285714
1.714286
7
2.142857
36



Compare that two Ginobili's last four games (I am of the mind that Ginobili is just slumping right now).



Ginobili
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Field Goal Percentage*
Steals
Blocks
Turnovers
Plus-Minus (Total)
PF
Minutes


Average
8.25
3.25
4
0.2865
1.25
0.5
3.25
-20
2.25
27.5


Per36
10.8
4.254545
5.236364
0.2865
1.636364
0.654545
4.254545
-20
2.945455
36



It just seems clear to me that Green had a bad four-game stretch, and Pop panicked and pulled him. He definitely wasn't the player he had been in the Clippers series, but he his play wasn't that bad. Green played for four minutes in each of the next two games, but he failed to score a point.

* Not his true average FG%. That's just the averages of all his FG%s from the series. I was too lazy go back and look up the FGM and FGA to get the real stat.

Good post. Men Lie , Women Lie, Numbers Don't.

[cd021]

We all know that Manu is struggling, but this is ridiculous

In two weeks, If Manu is still struggling. i guarantee someone is gonna mention benching Manu for Neal.

[phxspurfan]

Green is a role player, while Manu is supposed to be a star. Manu has to fill many roles on the team including but not limited to shooting guard, small forward, backup pg, closer and bench sparkplug. Green right now just has to be a spot up shooting guard and good on defense.

[HarlemHeat37]

Statistically, there are only 3 rotation wings that create less offense than Danny Green this season, tbh: Keith Bogans, Kyle Korver and Shane Battier..

Ginobili's peak 3-point shooting is around 40% IIRC..he's a great shooter..if his role the last few years was relegated to spot-up shooter that did not have to create any offense or drive the lane, he could easily fill Green's role..

Danny Green was a completely irrelevant player prior to joining the Spurs..anybody that thinks Manu couldn't fit the role of a spot-up shooter that has little responsibility at creating offense is an imbecile, tbh..

I'm not a Manu jocker either, I criticize him all the time, tbh..he's playing horribly and it's sad to watch him play basketball, at the moment..



As for Danny Green in last year's playoffs, he benefited greatly from poor competition, as did the Spurs as a whole, tbh..

Green had success against 2 of the 3 worst defensive teams in the entire playoffs, last year..his defensive success was against a hobbled Chris Paul, too..

The Spurs had 1 true test during last year's playoffs, and Green failed miserably, tbh..his performance against 2 of the worst playoff teams(considering Paul was limited) in recent West history is irrelevant, tbh..

Green's role is simple..make open 3s and play decent defense..he can't dribble a ball, he can't pass, he can't create his own offense, he can't score consistently inside the 3-point line..I appreciate his role in the Spurs offense, he's an essential cog, similar to guys like Mike Dunleavy, tbh, but his level of responsibility is vastly different than Ginobili's..

[letmk]

Statistically, there are only 3 rotation wings that create less offense than Danny Green this season, tbh: Keith Bogans, Kyle Korver and Shane Battier..

Ginobili's peak 3-point shooting is around 40% IIRC..he's a great shooter..if his role the last few years was relegated to spot-up shooter that did not have to create any offense or drive the lane, he could easily fill Green's role..

Danny Green was a completely irrelevant player prior to joining the Spurs..anybody that thinks Manu couldn't fit the role of a spot-up shooter that has little responsibility at creating offense is an imbecile, tbh..

I'm not a Manu jocker either, I criticize him all the time, tbh..he's playing horribly and it's sad to watch him play basketball, at the moment..



As for Danny Green in last year's playoffs, he benefited greatly from poor competition, as did the Spurs as a whole, tbh..

Green had success against 2 of the 3 worst defensive teams in the entire playoffs, last year..his defensive success was against a hobbled Chris Paul, too..

The Spurs had 1 true test during last year's playoffs, and Green failed miserably, tbh..his performance against 2 of the worst playoff teams(considering Paul was limited) in recent West history is irrelevant, tbh..

Green's role is simple..make open 3s and play decent defense..he can't dribble a ball, he can't pass, he can't create his own offense, he can't score consistently inside the 3-point line..I appreciate his role in the Spurs offense, he's an essential cog, similar to guys like Mike Dunleavy, tbh, but his level of responsibility is vastly different than Ginobili's..

Again, not trying to argue for Green-is-better-than-Manu. But your saying that Manu can be better Green simply by taking Green's role is not convincing.

Let's use an analogy, say Manu is like a general, Green is like a soldier. When Manu is on, he means much much more to the Spurs than Green. Everybody agrees with that. But when a general is too senile, that does not mean he can easily go back to being a good soldier, a much inferior position.

[hater]

agree. Nobody is disputing Green vs Manu roles on the team. We know they are different. Green cannot take over manu's job and Manu cannot take over Green's job.

It's just that Green is playing his role pretty well. Manu is actually hurting the team. Of course the playmaker is more valuable, but when the playmaker is not playing well, he actually hurts the team even more.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree with all that, and I don't think Manu at the moment can step in and replicate Green's success, since Ginobili's confidence seems low..

My point was that they aren't comparable and that if they had been in the same role since Green joined the Spurs, Manu could easily fill his role, tbh..

Ginobili, even during his struggles, receives defensive attention and game-planning from opposing defenses and coaches..Green doesn't, obviously..

[Blake]

No.

[Chinook]

I agree with all that, and I don't think Manu at the moment can step in and replicate Green's success, since Ginobili's confidence seems low..

My point was that they aren't comparable and that if they had been in the same role since Green joined the Spurs, Manu could easily fill his role, tbh..

Ginobili, even during his struggles, receives defensive attention and game-planning from opposing defenses and coaches..Green doesn't, obviously..

Ginobili is just not the shooter Green is, period. Manu's best season was 40.1 percent. His career average is 37.2 percent. Green's shooting at 44.6 percent right now, and at 43.2 percent for his career. That's a tremendous difference. There's no reason to assume Ginobili could have ever gotten near that number, and especially not "easily".

Also, defenses sure do key in to stop Green, which is why he has games where he doesn't take many shots. His man hardly leaves him out on the three-point line. In fact, it's because players have to commit to defending Green that the Spurs' offense works as well as it does. That's pretty much the definition of spacing the floor. It's clear that Ginobili is much more of a triple-threat for sure, but Green is not a forgotten man like Diaw is.

Saying Ginobili can/could fill Green's role is like saying Duncan could fill Bonner's role (and that's not even talking about the defensive factor). Just because Player A is better than Player B doesn't mean A can do everything better than B, even if A is focusing on it.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

I will say this Green is doing a better job in his role than Manu is in his role.

[cd98]

Green is for sure limited but he is a terrific fit with this Spurs team with his relatively good defense and his great 3 point shooting.

The best lineup in the NBA is Parker/Green/Kawhi/Duncan/Splitter. They have outscored opponents by 23.4 points per 48 minutes. It's a terrific defensive lineup with 5 above average defenders. Offensively they are fine and Green 3 point shooting with the spacing it brings is a big reason why it works at that end of the court.

Danny Green gets way better three point looks with Parker. When Parker was out, he really seemed to struggle. With Parker in the lane finding the open man, Green has become a sniper once again.

[cd98]

I'm frustrated by Ginoboli's lack of productivity. Still, it seems like his biggest problem is hitting the outside jumper. That's not something you lose with age. And if he could get it, it would help the rest of his game as it would open up more dribble penetration for scoring in the lane or finding the open shooters.

[Arcadian]

Green has certainly been more productive than Ginobili in the past several weeks (if not the entire season). Everyone here is just hoping and assuming that Manu will return to his old self in the playoffs, but...what if he doesn't?

Right now, Green contributes more to the team.

[EVAY]

Oh, man, this is just crazy.

As so many of you have pointed out, Green's role on this team is as a spot-up shooter, which he does pretty well. He wouldn't be anywhere NEAR as good as he is if he didn't have Tony drawing all the defenders into the paint and then getting the ball to Green in order to do what he does. Very often his defensive stance reminds me more of a head waiter displaying the path he would like the diner take to get to the designated table than of a hard-nosed perimeter defender.

Green plays with Tony who is the playmaker for the first squad, and if Tony is double teamed (as happened last night with Denver), then Duncan can make plays. Green takes what Tony or Duncan and the opposing team gives him, which tends to be corner threes. His job is to hit them. He did it very very well in the first half last night. He is not asked to create plays for himself or others, and if you have ever watched him try to complete a fast break, you fully understand why he is not asked to do more.

Manu is the playmaker for the second quad. His role requires far more than Green's role requires. Manu has not been performing his role particularly well of late, but he is not designed to be a spot-up corner shooter. He is the play maker. He has to be able to see the court, figure out what the defense is allowing, get the ball in position for a three point shooter or the big guy (because Manu rarely gets to play with more than one big guy at a time) on a pick and roll or create a shot for himself, or whatever play Pop has sent in the from the bench. When Manu is on the court, someone else is in the Green role. Perhaps Jackson, whoever.

The point is that they can't be compared head-to-head because the role requirements are so different, and Manu's role is so much more complex.

[Brazil]

Danny Green gets way better three point looks with Parker. When Parker was out, he really seemed to struggle. With Parker in the lane finding the open man, Green has become a sniper once again.

yes, TP passing when is driving and kicking out is spot on, ball arrives in perfect conditions, much better than lateral passes after a screen

[BatManu20]

:lol hell no. Manu haters can kick rocks.

[therealtruth]

Ginobili is just not the shooter Green is, period. Manu's best season was 40.1 percent. His career average is 37.2 percent. Green's shooting at 44.6 percent right now, and at 43.2 percent for his career. That's a tremendous difference. There's no reason to assume Ginobili could have ever gotten near that number, and especially not "easily".

Also, defenses sure do key in to stop Green, which is why he has games where he doesn't take many shots. His man hardly leaves him out on the three-point line. In fact, it's because players have to commit to defending Green that the Spurs' offense works as well as it does. That's pretty much the definition of spacing the floor. It's clear that Ginobili is much more of a triple-threat for sure, but Green is not a forgotten man like Diaw is.

Saying Ginobili can/could fill Green's role is like saying Duncan could fill Bonner's role (and that's not even talking about the defensive factor). Just because Player A is better than Player B doesn't mean A can do everything better than B, even if A is focusing on it.

You can't simply compare 3pt percentage. Manu takes much tougher 3's than Danny Green. DG gets open 3pt looks. Back in '02 I think Steve Smith shot close to 50% from 3. He had never even come close to that in his career. Did he suddenly become a much better 3pt shooter? No. He got wide open looks due to TD. That's what happens when most of your shots are open. Give Ginobili mostly open 3's and he would probably be close to 50% as well.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ginobili is just not the shooter Green is, period. Manu's best season was 40.1 percent. His career average is 37.2 percent. Green's shooting at 44.6 percent right now, and at 43.2 percent for his career. That's a tremendous difference. There's no reason to assume Ginobili could have ever gotten near that number, and especially not "easily".

Also, defenses sure do key in to stop Green, which is why he has games where he doesn't take many shots. His man hardly leaves him out on the three-point line. In fact, it's because players have to commit to defending Green that the Spurs' offense works as well as it does. That's pretty much the definition of spacing the floor. It's clear that Ginobili is much more of a triple-threat for sure, but Green is not a forgotten man like Diaw is.

Saying Ginobili can/could fill Green's role is like saying Duncan could fill Bonner's role (and that's not even talking about the defensive factor). Just because Player A is better than Player B doesn't mean A can do everything better than B, even if A is focusing on it.

:lmao

Ginobili has several seasons of 39+ % 3-point shooting AS A SHOT CREATOR..do you understand the difference between spot-up shooting and shooting off the dribble?..comparing Ginobili-Green's shooting disparity to Duncan-Bonner is one of the worst arguments in SpursTalk history, tbh:lol..

85% of Danny Green's shots are assisted..

Danny Green helps the Spurs offense because he makes his 3s at a high rate..if opposing defenses actually focused their defenses against him, he wouldn't have nearly as many 3-point attempts as he does..

Where are these games with Danny Green's shots attempts being limited by opposing defenses?..in the 67 games where he plays more than 15 minutes, he has 57 games with 4 or more 3-attempts, an unreal number:lol..

Green is a 1-dimensional offensive player that plays decent defense..he excels at a high level with that only dimension, I'm not selling him short, he's an elite regular season shooter..he's the Spurs version of Mike Dunleavy, which is a good asset, tbh..

[TD 21]

The Spurs had 1 true test during last year's playoffs, and Green failed miserably, tbh..his performance against 2 of the worst playoff teams(considering Paul was limited) in recent West history is irrelevant, tbh..

He did, but if you're going to qualify his success, then it's only right that you qualify his failure, too. The reality is, he was so obscenely hot from three down the stretch and in the first two rounds that he was due for a slump. Unfortunately, it just so happened to come at the most inopportune time.

[Chinook]

This post was full of terrible arguments. We'll go step by step:


Ginobili has several seasons of 39+ % 3-point shooting.

That's just not factually correct. Try looking up some stats. Ginobili shot over 39 percent TWICE, from 2006-2008. That was a pretty easy thing to check. The fact that you didn't really explains how you could make such a bad argument.


Do you understand the difference between spot-up shooting and shooting off the dribble?

Yes. I mentioned that when combating people who thought Green was the next Ray Allen. Ginobili isn't taking all pull-up threes like you're pretending he is. And even if he were, that only goes to suggest that Green has a better feeling of when to shoot. Green shoots pull-ups, too. But he only does it when he's open. I don't give Manu points for chucking.


..comparing Ginobili-Green's shooting disparity to Duncan-Bonner is one of the worst arguments in SpursTalk history, tbh:lol..

We're talking about roles. Green is a floor spacer. He's not as good of a player as Ginobili in general (Lord, have we all agreed on that), but that doesn't mean that Ginobili can just be a better spot-up shooter by trying at it. The same way that Duncan wouldn't do Bonner's job better just because Duncan is a better player. Is the argument an exaggeration? Of course it is. The gap between Duncan and Bonner is worlds greater than that between Green and Ginobili. If your argument had any weight at all, one would think you'd be jumping all over yourself to agree with that.


Danny Green helps the Spurs offense because he makes his 3s at a high rate..if opposing defenses actually focused their defenses against him, he wouldn't have nearly as many 3-point attempts as he does..

That's the whole point of spacing the floor. Green being as good of a shooter as he is forces the defender to either guard him or help out on Parker's penetration. We should all be hoping that teams commit to taking him away. A day where Green is too well guarded to get a shot is a day where Parker got to live in the lane.


Where are these games with Danny Green's shots attempts being limited by opposing defenses?..in the 67 games where he plays more than 15 minutes, he has 57 games with 4 or more 3-attempts, an unreal number:lol..

So it looks like there were 10 games to me. If you don't believe me, go back and look at timvp's game grades from those games. He mentioned a couple of times specifically how open the paint was because Green's man just wouldn't leave him. (The first Brooklyn game comes to mind specifically.)


Green is a 1-dimensional offensive player that plays decent defense..he excels at a high level with that only dimension, I'm not selling him short, he's an elite regular season shooter..he's the Spurs version of Mike Dunleavy, which is a good asset, tbh..

He also shot an at elite clip for the first two playoff series. You may act like that may as well be the regular season. But prior to last year, the Spurs hadn't made it out of the second round since 2008. Even if Green choked in the OKC series (he didn't), I don't think Spurs fans would have really been that upset if Bonner's shooting always continued out through the WCF.

[HarlemHeat37]

- Ginobili has 3 seasons at 40% or better(rounded) and 2 more seasons at 38%(rounded)..semantics, tbh..I have no idea how somebody can claim that Manu isn't a great open shooter..

- You didn't acknowledge my point that 85% of Green's shots are assisted

- You didn't counter-argue that Green took 4 or more 3s in 57 out of 67 games..10 games isn't an argument in your favor at all:lol..in February and March, there were only 2 games where Green shot less than 4 3s:lol..

- I agree that Green is less of a choker than Bonner, tbh..good comparison though, very similar..

[Chinook]

You can't simply compare 3pt percentage. Manu takes much tougher 3's than Danny Green. DG gets open 3pt looks. Back in '02 I think Steve Smith shot close to 50% from 3. He had never even come close to that in his career. Did he suddenly become a much better 3pt shooter? No. He got wide open looks due to TD. That's what happens when most of your shots are open. Give Ginobili mostly open 3's and he would probably be close to 50% as well.

There's no reason to believe that. Ginobili doesn't really seem to hit a high percentage or open threes versus contested ones (though I am sure there's some difference). While I think he'd make a decent spot-up shooter (along the lines of Leonard), 44 percent is hard to do.

Manu's been working on his three game for a couple of years to preserve his body. It's not like he just rolls out of bed and shoots his percentage while Green doesn't nothing but practice outside shots and gets his percentage. I think if they both put their full effort into making threes, Green would still be higher. Ginobili would have to raise his base percentage tremendously; Green would just have to stop being so damned streaky.

[Chinook]

- Ginobili has 3 seasons at 40% or better(rounded) and 2 more seasons at 38%(rounded)..semantics, tbh..I have no idea how somebody can claim that Manu isn't a great open shooter..

- You didn't acknowledge my point that 85% of Green's shots are assisted

- You didn't counter-argue that Green took 4 or more 3s in 57 out of 67 games..10 games isn't an argument in your favor at all:lol

- I agree that Green is less of a choker than Bonner, tbh..good comparison though, very similar..

You're right that I forgot one of Ginobili's seasons. I didn't even look at 2011-2012 for some reason -- my mistake. But you can't go around touting he shot over 39 percent several times and then say that I should have acknowledge when he shot 38 percent when I refute you.

I didn't disagree on Green's shots being assisted. If Ginobili played the same role, he'd get those 85 percent, too. If Green were taking his own shots, that means Parker doesn't have the ball as much, and that's not good for the Spurs' offense.

I didn't need to counter-argue about Green's games where he takes a lot of shots. I pointed out that when he doesn't it leaves the lane open. He gets so many shots now because teams are desperate to stop Parker (or when Green forces the issue like he did when Parker was out, but that's another topic). In 10 games where Green doesn't get shots, the lane is a vacant lot. In the games where teams leave him along to contain Parker (the first half of the Denver game as a prime example), Green destroys them. That's why floor-spacing works the way it does. Green takes those shots because he has to; he'd hurt the offense if he doesn't. The whole system wouldn't work if you didn't have something around this balance.

There's nothing even remotely similar between Green and Bonner, and you know it. Green has much better playoff stats, and even led the team in defensive rating in the OKC series. Once again, if Bonner had had those numbers, the Spurs would have gone deeper in the playoffs than they had for the past few years before last year.

[Strategic]

:nope F__________ way!

[Brunodf]

There's no reason to believe that. Ginobili doesn't really seem to hit a high percentage or open threes versus contested ones (though I am sure there's some difference). While I think he'd make a decent spot-up shooter (along the lines of Leonard), 44 percent is hard to do.


Manu is our best corner shooter(55%)

[Chinook]

Manu is our best corner shooter(55%)

That would be a good reason. Where'd you find that stat? I've been looking for a place that breaks down shots like that. Not that that automatically shows Ginobili's a better shooter. To me, it shows one of two things: either Green is getting run off the corner more than he used to or that Green's finding success at many other spots.

[Brunodf]

That would be a good reason. Where'd you find that stat? I've been looking for a place that breaks down shots like that. Not that that automatically shows Ginobili's a better shooter. To me, it shows one of two things: either Green is getting run off the corner more than he used to or that Green's finding success at many other spots.

Stats from early march, just press members have acess to those stats(nba.com)...

The blue charts represent shot distribution.
The yellow, red and green shot chart represent shot performance.

Manu
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1482765/20truvl_medium.jpg

Green
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1482729/j797xu_medium.jpg

Kawhi
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1482753/fxgghz_medium.jpg

[Chinook]

Thanks for the pics. :toast

I'm trying to make sense of them. It's hard to read them on my screen.

[Chinook]

After downloading the pics and zooming in, I got a better chance to see what they're saying.

I wanted to test the hypothesis that Ginobili was the Spurs' best corner three shooter, so I did a couple of quick chi-square tests. The results I got suggests that Ginobili hasn't taken enough attempts to say he's for sure a better corner three shooter than either Leonard or Green. Ginobili had only taken 36 corner threes as of that picture. Green had taken 128 (and Leonard 92).

But I get that should want to show that Green is a significantly better three-point shooter than Ginobili is. Doing a chi-square test on that, I found that Green has had significantly more success shooting from three this year (total attempts) than Ginobill. Incidentally enough, there was no significant difference between either Leonard and Green or Leonard and Ginobili.

To me, this data reinforces the idea that Green is more than the run-of-the-mill, D-and-corner-three player that the Spurs have employed as their starting two-guard for much of the Ginobili era. He shot the best out of the three players from non-corner three spots. That already makes him a more dynamic weapon than people typically give him credit for. It's one thing to be able to run Green off corner shots; it's another to have to run him off shots at the wing, where the recovery distance is longer.

[Brunodf]

After downloading the pics and zooming in, I got a better chance to see what they're saying.

I wanted to test the hypothesis that Ginobili was the Spurs' best corner three shooter, so I did a couple of quick chi-square tests. The results I got suggests that Ginobili hasn't taken enough attempts to say he's for sure a better corner three shooter than either Leonard or Green. Ginobili had only taken 36 corner threes as of that picture. Green had taken 128 (and Leonard 92).

But I get that should want to show that Green is a significantly better three-point shooter than Ginobili is. Doing a chi-square test on that, I found that Green has had significantly more success shooting from three this year (total attempts) than Ginobill. Incidentally enough, there was no significant difference between either Leonard and Green or Leonard and Ginobili.

To me, this data reinforces the idea that Green is more than the run-of-the-mill, D-and-corner-three player that the Spurs have employed as their starting two-guard for much of the Ginobili era. He shot the best out of the three players from non-corner three spots. That already makes him a more dynamic weapon than people typically give him credit for. It's one thing to be able to run Green off corner shots; it's another to have to run him off shots at the wing, where the recovery distance is longer.

Of course Green is shooting better than Manu this season(and Green improved from last season). I just pointed that there's a reason to believe that Manu could be as good as Green(3pt%) if he was playing that role...

[Chinook]

Of course Green is shooting better than Manu this season(and Green improved from last season). I just pointed that there's a reason to believe that Manu could be as good as Green(3pt%) if he was playing that role...

I didn't post that to combat your point. As I said, I've been interested in seeing shot breakdowns for a while. I just wanted to do a little analysis on it once you provided it.

I will point out, though, that it seems pretty clear that Green's role isn't just to shoot threes from the corner. Fewer than half of Green's threes (44 percent I think) come from the corners. I think that was different last year. One way that Green has evolved offensively is by taking threes from other places on the court. That makes him significantly more valuable.

To take Green's role, Ginobili would need to show he could keep up good corner numbers over more attempts while significantly improving his wing numbers. As I said earlier in the thread, Ginobili could probably shoot threes at a better clip than Leonard, but Green's shooting is on a higher level than most people realize.

[ElNono]

Green is a 1-dimensional offensive player that plays decent defense..he excels at a high level with that only dimension, I'm not selling him short, he's an elite regular season shooter..he's the Spurs version of Mike Dunleavy, which is a good asset, tbh..

Pretty much Bruce Bowen's role. Excels at assisted 3s within the system (plus Danny takes the occasional transition 3). Obviously, he has a bunch of steps to go to reach Bruce's defensive prowess.

Don't ask him to dribble, attack the rim, run an offense or pretty much anything else. I'll add that unlike Bonner, he can play more than situational minutes because his defense can be decent for stretches.

Agree he's an asset, but would have a terrible time playing without somebody actually creating the offense out there.

[AFBlue]

Can Green be a better leader for the second unit and set the table for others? No.

Manu plays a more important role and has a more well-rounded skillset to perform in that role.

I like Danny, but he's no Manu.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Players that need to get wide open looks to succeed usually don't succeed in the playoffs because there are a lot less wide open looks. That label fits Bonner more than Green, but I think it still applies to Green. I expect Green to do worse in the playoffs. To my untrained eye he seems to do worse overall when he isn't hitting his shots. (I guess that implies his defense gets worse because the other areas of his game couldn't get much worse)

No team game plans for Green. I sense that because he is so hot/cold, there is even less reason to consider him a consistent threat. That's not to diminish his contributions, but this elevation of Green in general is silly.

[Baynes]

f*ck this "has *insert player* surpassed Manu as the nth best player of the team?"

Manu is still number 3, with manu playing decent, we can win any game.
As long as Parker and Duncan are the scoring option, Manu will always be 3 and Kawhi is 4th.
not to mention, your Green is 6th with Tiago in 5th.

[kaji157]

When you are thinking that X player has Surpassed Ginobili you have to chill and think.

Can player X takeover a playoff game and win it... Because i can place bet against anyone that Ginobili still can.

Green and Leonard wouldn´t even dream of it.

[MannyIsGod]

The best change I've noticed in Danny Green this year is his confidence. Props to him for stepping up and not letting up after getting a new contract.

[Spurs Brazil]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

He's so fucking ass, tbh..

It's nice that he shoots 3s at an elite level, but can he learn how to fucking dribble and make layups?..

[HarlemHeat37]

:lmao nothing similar between Green and Bonner..

[hater]

green as bad as it is still > than broken manu

[ElNono]

Manu > Green... nothing we didn't know already

[Kool Bob Love]

green as bad as it is still > than broken manu

Put the bottle down.

[Texas_Ranger]

I would have more faith in Manu with broken hands and broken legs than in Danny Green. Specially in the playoffs where our shooters start choking. I would also like to see Jax with Kawhi in the closing minutes of the games instead of Danny now that Manu is out.

[Spurs Brazil]

Has Danny Green Surpassed Ginobili as the 4th Best Player on the Team?

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[Kool Bob Love]

Green is for sure limited but he is a terrific fit with this Spurs team with his relatively good defense and his great 3 point shooting.



:lmao

[Reck]

lol

[Man In Black]

green as bad as it is still > than broken manu who can't be on the court. 1 armed Manu is twice the player Green is
FIFY

[Brunodf]

:lmaoThis thread

[HarlemHeat37]

:lmao

Read the arguments in this thread for a good laugh, tbh..

[100%duncan]

:lmao good bump

[spurraider21]

4th?

try 6th

TP
TD
Kawhi
Tiago
Green
Manu

now of course that would change if you let Green handle the ball. But it's on Pop to find a use for Ginobili that will hopefully take him to being 4th best Spur where he belongs and stop him from looking pathetic

:lmao

[spursparker9]

Maybe the Jackson's incident is related to Danny Green.

Pop wanted Jackson to admit Green is better than Jack...and the rest is history.

[Brunodf]

:lmaoThis thread
^

[Brunodf]

2/10
^

[DAF86]

Is Green really an above average defender? Is he an average defener at all? Even a one legged Nash can run past him at ease. He just doesn't keep anybody in front of him.

[ElNono]

:lol

[Budkin]

If Green does not get his shit together for these playoffs he needs to be kicked to the curb.

[hater]

tbh I was right on point, he was playing like the 6th best player but really belongs in the 4th position. I still believe TP, TD and Kawhi should play better than Manu for Spurs to be our best. But noone else.

Props to Pop for finding just the right amount of minutes for Manu. :tu

And I been saying Green is a one trick pony just like Neal. Hater with the damn goods :tu

[Texas_Ranger]

tbh I was right on point, he was playing like the 6th best player but really belongs in the 4th position. I still believe TP, TD and Kawhi should play better than Manu for Spurs to be our best. But noone else.

Props to Pop for finding just the right amount of minutes for Manu. :tu

And I been saying Green is a one trick pony just like Neal. Hater with the damn goods :tu

Neal can at least create his own shot, it's not always a good shot, but it's better than what Danny is doing.

[DarrinS]

:lmao

[Captivus]

Im not going to say that Green is playing well, but I think that Green's bad performance has 2 reason:
1) Himself
2) Teams make adjustments.
Everybody is always talking about how good the Spurs are from the 3pt range. Green is one of our best shooters, so is normal that teams adjust, leaving space for other players to do their thing.

He didnt had a good game yesterday, but its not like he missed open looks all night. He only shoot 1 3 pointer.
Im not saying he is the GOAT, but I think teams are adjusting.

Now, if he could start makeing thos mid range jumpers and layups....

[UZER]

If Green does not get his shit together for these playoffs he needs to be kicked to the curb.

I think Pop has found his new Bonner. We just have to wait 6 years for Green to have a good playoff series.

[therealtruth]

I saw DG run a pick and roll with Splitter. I'm not sure why he didn't get counted for the assist.

[Budkin]

He's not just collapsing offensively, but defensively he bites on every single pump fake and just cannot seem to rotate onto shooters.

[ElNono]

:lmao

[Stabula]

Green will continue to be mostly useless until he develops his game past being a mere spot-up shooter.

[DrSteffo]

Funny :) But I don't hate on Green, he is what he is.

[Spurs Brazil]

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[phxspurfan]

Jackson would have been more valuable :stirpot:

[skulls138]

Greens not a momentum changer like Ginobili but will feed off it and that would be awesome so STOP LAUGHING!!

[z0sa]

Green is fucking terrible. If there is any one player (who received minutes) outside the big 3 responsible for our collapse vs OKC last season, it's Green's sorry bricking ass.

[racm]

Funny, Green was an all-around player at UNC but is just a 3 point specialist in SA. I'd trust Bonner making shots off the dribble more now, tbh.

[Dro210]

At least some people realize that Green is basically a scrub who's only NBA skill is hitting WIDE open 3's... and he's even extremely streaky when it comes to that.

:lol at the fact some of the people who defend him are the ones that will kill Bonner and Neal.

[superjames1992]

This thread needs to be wiped from the internet. Tbh...

[Knoxxx]

Green plays decent defense and I think his shot will come back. He needs to get to the rim better and agree he is too one dimensional. To win a title I think we will need him to do more so let's hope it turns around for him.

[Juggity]

Manu was honestly playing a lot worse than Danny Green 4 weeks ago. Nothing funny about this topic in retrospect. All we can do is hope he doesn't regress back to that useless level again in the next month or so.

[JingleJangleJingle]

Manu was honestly playing a lot worse than Danny Green 4 weeks ago. Nothing funny about this topic in retrospect. All we can do is hope he doesn't regress back to that useless level again in the next month or so.

i was joking when i made the thread...this was around the time Manu was the punching bag of Spurstalk.

[HarlemHeat37]

I was partly wrong about Manu, too, tbh..

I bumped this thread re: Danny Green comments, rather than Ginobili, tbh..the delusion of die-hard Green fans(not necessarily the OP, but the posters vehemently arguing in his favor in this thread)..

[superjames1992]

Green is what he is: a spot-up jump shooter. And that's okay. Just don't expect anything more.

Even if Manu is playing poorly, he's still distributing and making plays for others. That's something Green can't do.

[therealtruth]

Green will continue to be mostly useless until he develops his game past being a mere spot-up shooter.

That's also on Pop. Just like with Kawhi they need to involve him in more stuff on offense to expand his game.

[weeks]

hahahah.
obviously not.

[JingleJangleJingle]

:elephant