Why cant the '2nd best PF of all-time' even lead his team to the playoffs ?

[FkLA]

Has enough talent to atleast be an eight seed too, its not like Wally Sczerbiak is his #2. Doesnt make sense to me tbh.

[Latarian Milton]

hablas espanol por tanto el no es sopresa que usted no saba ello

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not a Dirk jocker, but his supporting cast is horrible:lol..

- He missed a large part of the season
- The Mavs 2nd best player this year has been a 36-year old Vince Carter
- OJ Mayo fucking sucks
- Mike James starts at PG

[Clipper Nation]

Yet another garbage take per par.... from the same clown who brought us "Diaw > Lee," tbh...

[D12]

:lmao @ 2nd best PF all time

[Latarian Milton]

Has enough talent to atleast be an eight seed too, its not like Wally Sczerbiak is his #2. Doesnt make sense to me tbh.
los mavs no tienen el seed ocho porque su torero no juegaba mas juegos que 1/2 de la temporada, y su #2 no esta mejor que sczerbiak tbh.

[FkLA]

His cast isnt terrible tbh. Its not championship material obviously, but it aint shit either...statistically speaking a bunch of guys are having solid seasons. Plus its not like it takes nearly 50 games to make the playoffs nowadays like it did back then in the early-mid 2000s wild west days.

[Venti Quattro]

:lmao :lmao Latarian Milton :lmao :lmao

[BatManu20]

Dirk's too old at this point in his career to be carrying anybody tbh. Plus, he only affects one side of the court. Provides nothing defensively, so they're realy just relying on him to score a ton, and that's unrealistic. And, his supporting cast is actually pretty shitty.. Kaman, Collison, and Mike James are all terrible.

[monosylab1k]

His cast isnt terrible tbh. Its not championship material obviously, but it aint shit either...statistically speaking a bunch of guys are having solid seasons. Plus its not like it takes nearly 50 games to make the playoffs nowadays like it did back then in the early-mid 2000s wild west days.

Yep, which is why it's so sad to see Prime KG just barely miss the playoffs with those great 32-50 and 33-49 seasons :lmao

And of course Dirk has a great supporting cast with guys like Mike James while KG was wasting away with dogshit like Mike James.

[AaronY]

Plexiglass is less transparent than OP

[DAF86]

Dirk's too old at this point in his career to be carrying anybody tbh. Plus, he only affects one side of the court. Provides nothing defensively, so they're realy just relying on him to score a ton, and that's unrealistic. And, his supporting cast is actually pretty shitty.. Kaman, Collison, and Mike James are all terrible.

Which is why saying that he's the 2nd best PF of all-time is retarded, almost as retarded as D'antoni > Phil Jackson or deleting posts 'cause you made yourself look like a retard, tbh.

[spurraider21]

I still don't understand the Dirk > KG stuff. Dirk had a legendary postseason run in 2011. But people think he's been that way his entire career and still is. Also need to realize Chandler was the defensive anchor and really "changed the culture" of the Mavs the same way OKC thought Perkins would :lmao

Calling _irk the 2nd best power forward of all time is a joke.

But to be completely fair, his cast this year is pretty bad. The best teammate is probably Vince Carter, and at this stage in his career, thats just sad. Marion is limited, Mayo has gotten worse as the season has gone along, and his point guards are Mike James and Darren Collison instead of Jason Kidd. He's got no Jason Terry either. Caveman has no D anymore, and Wright can't score unless he's spoon-fed a dunk.

[Sportstudi]

I'm not a Dirk jocker, but his supporting cast is horrible:lol..

- He missed a large part of the season
- The Mavs 2nd best player this year has been a 36-year old Vince Carter
- OJ Mayo fucking sucks
- Mike James starts at PG

Don't ruin FkLA's cheap attempt to piss on Dirk :lol

[Sportstudi]

I still don't understand the Dirk > KG stuff. Dirk had a legendary postseason run in 2011. But people think he's been that way his entire career and still is. Also need to realize Chandler was the defensive anchor and really "changed the culture" of the Mavs the same way OKC thought Perkins would :lmao

Calling _irk the 2nd best power forward of all time is a joke.

But to be completely fair, his cast this year is pretty bad. The best teammate is probably Vince Carter, and at this stage in his career, thats just sad. Marion is limited, Mayo has gotten worse as the season has gone along, and his point guards are Mike James and Darren Collison instead of Jason Kidd. He's got no Jason Terry either. Caveman has no D anymore, and Wright can't score unless he's spoon-fed a dunk.

Can't recall the Caveman ever playing solid D.

[Tuddy]

Dirk > KG. Could never get the T'Wolves outta the first round without help

[Jodelo]

:lolSolid team, when Mika James starts for you, you can't have a good/solid team!

[Brazil]

Plus, he only affects one side of the court.

this is utterly bullshit, an urban legend created because dude is white and has long hair.
Dirk has never been a top notch Defender but saying he only affects one side of the court or insinuating that he is merely a traffic cone on the D end is retarded.

[Phillip]

this is utterly bullshit, an urban legend created because dude is white and has long hair.
Dirk has never been a top notch Defender but saying he only affects one side of the court or insinuating that he is merely a traffic cone on the D end is retarded.
yeah his size, length, and quick hands most definitely are things opponents have to account for on defense. his defensive IQ is good too, as he rarely is out of position, unless it's just due to laziness.

not a great defender at any time, but starting from when Avery came around, you couldn't necessarily take him lightly either. He began to find ways to make you pay for that, and force you to show some sort of respect to his defense.

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

:lolSolid team, when Mika James starts for you, you can't have a good/solid team!

Dirk went full beta after ringing. Cuban took his cookie and Dirk was a willing participant.

[monosylab1k]

Also, KG didn't miss the playoffs when 50 wins was required to make the playoffs. 05-06 the 8 seed won 44 games, 06-07 the 8 seed won 42 games. KG led his team to 33 and 32 wins those years, far shittier in his prime than Dirk with a crap team past his prime.

With a horrible supporting cast Old Ass Dirk > Prime KG :lmao

[jjktkk]

I would think Mav fans would put all of the blame on Cuban for dismantling a championship squad, and whiffing out on free agency.

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

I would think Mav fans would put all of the blame on Cuban for dismantling a championship squad, and whiffing out on free agency.

You would think, but it seems like they let him get away with it and say Dirk's supporting cast magically appeared out of nowhere.

[monosylab1k]

I would think Mav fans would put all of the blame on Cuban for dismantling a championship squad, and whiffing out on free agency.

A retarded Spurs fan with a butthurt grudge against Dirk supporters started this thread you dipshit.

[jjktkk]

A retarded Spurs fan with a butthurt grudge against Dirk supporters started this thread you dipshit.

STFU dumbfuck, and bring something to this thread, besides your vaginal cramps.

[monosylab1k]

STFU dumbfuck, and bring something to this thread, besides you vaginal cramps.

Don't get pissed at me because your dumb ass can't fucking read.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol is this another thread where TAMUKdropout comments without knowing the facts?

[BobaFett1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUR75Lyl818

[jjktkk]

Don't get pissed at me because your dumb ass can't fucking read.

I looked at the part of FKLA's thread(Why cant the '2nd best PF of all-time' even lead his team to the playoffs ?), and wanted to know if Mav fans blamed Cuban for failing to surround Dirk with a better supporting cast? Meaning I Wouldn't blame Dirk, if the Mavs don't get into the playoffs. I would put the blame on Cuban.

[jjktkk]

:lol is this another thread where TAMUKdropout comments without knowing the facts?

Wow. only thought this Pego had a semen shield on here.

[ambchang]

A) Dirk missed 40% of the Mavs games this year
B) When Dirk played, the Mavs are 23-22, which is about a 38-36 record, half a game outside of 8th seed
C) When Dirk played 30+ minutes, the Mavs are 18-15 (he started off not being in game shape when the rest of the league was already 1/4 in the season), which projects to 40-34, good enough for 8th seed in the west.

[Phillip]

A) Dirk missed 40% of the Mavs games this year
B) When Dirk played, the Mavs are 23-22, which is about a 38-36 record, half a game outside of 8th seed
C) When Dirk played 30+ minutes, the Mavs are 18-15 (he started off not being in game shape when the rest of the league was already 1/4 in the season), which projects to 40-34, good enough for 8th seed in the west.

additionally, Dirk didn't really get into a normal groove until about mid-February. Mavs have been 14-9 since around that time. And only in the past 2-3 weeks has he looked anything remotely like the Dirk we are all used to seeing.

A full year with a healthy Dirk, and he gets this team a 5th or 6th seed most likely, perhaps even with a shot at 50 wins, especially after looking at the stats you have provided

[Findog]

His cast isnt terrible tbh. Its not championship material obviously, but it aint shit either...statistically speaking a bunch of guys are having solid seasons. Plus its not like it takes nearly 50 games to make the playoffs nowadays like it did back then in the early-mid 2000s wild west days.

Dirk missed 29 games, troll. If he plays a full season, they get in.

[Findog]

I still don't understand the Dirk > KG stuff. Dirk had a legendary postseason run in 2011. But people think he's been that way his entire career and still is.


And they would be right and you are ill-informed and don't know what you're talking about. You do realize that Dirk was just as good, if not better, in 09 when they lost in the second round as he was in 2011? Outside of the Finals in 06 and the first-round flameout against Golden State he's been a legendary postseason performer.


Also need to realize Chandler was the defensive anchor and really "changed the culture" of the Mavs the same way OKC thought Perkins would.


You would think somebody watching Kobe in his prime having to carry Smush Parker and Chris Mihm would understand the concept that one player all by himself cannot win a championship.


Calling _irk the 2nd best power forward of all time is a joke.

In what universe is prime KG better than prime Dirk?

[Thread]

^You fuckin' your mother is a joke too, Fin.

Ya fuckin' hump, you.

[monosylab1k]

I looked at the part of FKLA's thread(Why cant the '2nd best PF of all-time' even lead his team to the playoffs ?), and wanted to know if Mav fans blamed Cuban for failing to surround Dirk with a better supporting cast? Meaning I Wouldn't blame Dirk, if the Mavs don't get into the playoffs. I would put the blame on Cuban.

What fucking Mavs fan in his right mind would think Dirk is to blame for a championship team being dismantled? And this is obviously a troll thread to begin with considering who made it. Your explanation is rejected, you're still a dumbass.

[AaronY]

KG and Dirk is apples and oranges to me...best way I could explain it is its like comparing Scottie Pippen to someone like Ray Allen. Allen is a better scorer than Pippen and could be the go to guy on a title team maybe but Pippen is so much better than in defense, rebounding, passing its hard to compare. KG couldn't hit big shots or carry a team offensively like Dirk but he in another galaxy in terms of rebounding, passing, defense.., best to not even waste time with the comparison

[ambchang]

Dirk is a better rebounder, passer and defender give him credit for. Sure, KG is better than Kirk in all of those areas, but KG really wasn't that much better a passer than Dirk is, nor is he that much better of a rebounder.

Dirk can carry a team offensively in the postseason, and he has proven that multiple times. KG cannot, and that has also been proven.

From a team building perspective, it is much easier to find rebounders and defenders to supplement a dominant scorer with average to above average abilities in the other areas, than to find a scorer to supplement a rebounder/defender/passer.

Dirk gets unfairly criticized in 06 (the calls were legendary, right next to 02 Kings), and again in 07 (he doesn't match up well with the GS players). Do people criticize Shaq for averaging 21.5 ppg vs. the Spurs because Duncan, Robinson and Rose was there to limit him and the Spurs entire game plan was to stop Shaq and Shaq alone? Of course not, because the Lakers won with Kobe Bryant and Fisher stepping up, so why would Dirk get criticised when GS geared their entire defense to stopping him, and none of his teammates stepped up?

[AaronY]

Dirk is an average defensive player, KG is maybe a top 10-15 defensive player of all time. Lol @ the idea that DPOY are just easy to come across. Asamof that's exactly what Chandler was and Dirk almost waited until his career was over to find him. KG was also averaging 15 rebounds a game try picking one of those types of players up of FA wire. It's a really stupid comparison imho but if you like to sit around thinking about this stuff all day then go ahead

[Blake]

I heard a rumor that UTSA opened a Taco Cabana on campus.

I believe it.

[ambchang]

Dirk is an average defensive player, KG is maybe a top 10-15 defensive player of all time. Lol @ the idea that DPOY are just easy to come across. Asamof that's exactly what Chandler was and Dirk almost waited until his career was over to find him. KG was also averaging 15 rebounds a game try picking one of those types of players up of FA wire. It's a really stupid comparison imho but if you like to sit around thinking about this stuff all day then go ahead

I never said picking up a KG is easy, I said picking up a Chandler is easier than picking up a Pierce + Rondo, which is true.

Dirk needs a guy like Chandler, and an older than granite Kidd to win a title.

KG needs a guy like Pierce and Rondo to win a title.

Now you tell me, is it easier to pick up a Chandler + Kidd, or is it easier to pick up a Pierce + Rondo.

It's also hilarious that you decide to dwell on a topic that you deem as stupid.

[Findog]

Dirk is a better rebounder, passer and defender give him credit for. Sure, KG is better than Kirk in all of those areas,

KG is not a better passer than Dirk. In another league defensively and a better rebounder, sure, but not a better passer.

[monosylab1k]

KG is not a better passer than Dirk. In another league defensively and a better rebounder, sure, but not a better passer.

Garnett was a great passer, but his better assist totals were due to his non-elite scoring ability. He passed out of necessity. Dirk could always pass well but when his team gave him the ball they wanted him to score, not pass.

Plus Dirk would probably have like 500 more assists in his career if he didn't have to spend most of his prime watching Stone Hands Dampier fumble easy buckets out of bounds.

[ambchang]

Well, I would say Dirk was a great passer, especially for a PF, but Garnett was probably one of the best passers at the PF position.

[FkLA]

Also, KG didn't miss the playoffs when 50 wins was required to make the playoffs. 05-06 the 8 seed won 44 games, 06-07 the 8 seed won 42 games. KG led his team to 33 and 32 wins those years, far shittier in his prime than Dirk with a crap team past his prime.

With a horrible supporting cast Old Ass Dirk > Prime KG :lmao

Yeah, lets go ahead cherry pick KGs last two years were he had basically grown tired of Minny after they failed to re-sign the only significant help he had had there. :rolleyes


this is utterly bullshit, an urban legend created because dude is white and has long hair.
Dirk has never been a top notch Defender but saying he only affects one side of the court or insinuating that he is merely a traffic cone on the D end is retarded.

Even if he was an average defender, which he wasnt for much of his career...that doesnt mean he affects that side of the ball. He merely isnt a liability.

[FkLA]

In what universe is prime KG better than prime Dirk?

See this is what you Dirk jockers dont get...Dirk never was and never will be in both Duncans and KGs class. Diggler is a great offensive player, HOFer, and all that but out this eras PFs he was 3rd behind both TD and KG...nobody in their right mind valued Dirk higher than KG (except maybe Cubes) during the early-mid 2000s. Why? Because KG was not only a 20 ppg scorer but one of the best defenders of all-time. Same with Duncan. If you dont see how that is more valuable than just a great offensive player than I dont know what to tell you tbh.


Garnett was a great passer, but his better assist totals were due to his non-elite scoring ability. He passed out of necessity. Dirk could always pass well but when his team gave him the ball they wanted him to score, not pass.

Plus Dirk would probably have like 500 more assists in his career if he didn't have to spend most of his prime watching Stone Hands Dampier fumble easy buckets out of bounds.

Great logic, dumbass. 'KG wasnt as good of a scorer so out of necessity he passed more, thats the only reason KG had more assists.' :lmao

He averaged 21-25 ppg during his time in Minny while he was averaging 5+ apg. Its not like hes a like he was some limited scorer. By that logic I could say Dirk average one or two more points per game because he was a limited passer so he shot more.

[monosylab1k]

Yeah, lets go ahead cherry pick KGs last two years were he had basically grown tired of Minny after they failed to re-sign the only significant help he had had there. :rolleyes

:lmao like you didn't cherry pick a year where Dirk grew tired of Cuban destroying the team after failing to re-sign the significant help he had here. Not to mention Dirk being out for a month to start the year and spending another month playing while still rehabbing his knee.

[TAMUK Drop-out]

Sup guys?

[Latarian Milton]

Dirk is an average defensive player, KG is maybe a top 10-15 defensive player of all time. Lol @ the idea that DPOY are just easy to come across. Asamof that's exactly what Chandler was and Dirk almost waited until his career was over to find him. KG was also averaging 15 rebounds a game try picking one of those types of players up of FA wire. It's a really stupid comparison imho but if you like to sit around thinking about this stuff all day then go ahead
dirk's probably the best 7'0 scorer since bird and he has no reason to not play to his strength imho, and for sure defense ain't his strength. in terms of team successes, KG's biggest achievement was an WCF appearance as the #1 of his team and the rest years they were nothing better than 1st round fodder, while dirk managed to carry scrubs to the NBA finals twice and made the 2nd round multiple times with the next best being Josh howard or a 38yr old kidd. TD and KG both have their own strengths and weaknesses and it's really hard to say who's sheer better than the others among these three tbh. and if you insist that dirk is not as good as TD or KG due to him not playing an all-round game, then you're probably also one of the spurs homos who think manu > kobe tbh. as Kobe is up there in the hall of top 20 players of all time, dirk too.

[AaronY]

Like I said I wouldn't bother comparing the two because they have such different players with different strengths its a waste of time to me...if mental masturbation is your thing then go for it.

[FkLA]

dirk's probably the best 7'0 scorer since bird and he has no reason to not play to his strength imho, and for sure defense ain't his strength. in terms of team successes, KG's biggest achievement was an WCF appearance as the #1 of his team and the rest years they were nothing better than 1st round fodder, while dirk managed to carry scrubs to the NBA finals twice and made the 2nd round multiple times with the next best being Josh howard or a 38yr old kidd. TD and KG both have their own strengths and weaknesses and it's really hard to say who's sheer better than the others among these three tbh. and if you insist that dirk is not as good as TD or KG due to him not playing an all-round game, then you're probably also one of the spurs homos who think manu > kobe tbh. as Kobe is up there in the hall of top 20 players of all time, dirk too.

KG was the best player on a title team tbh.

[Latarian Milton]

KG was the best player on a title team tbh.
KG era solo uno de el grandes tres. aunque hombre era el mejor en su equipo que ganaba el 08' anillo, este no habla mucho tbh.

[FkLA]

Damn amazing how Dirk goes from the pinnacle to rock bottom without Big Daddy Tyson holding his hand, smh.

[monosylab1k]

Damn amazing how Dirk goes from the pinnacle to rock bottom without Big Daddy Tyson holding his hand, smh.

Better than going from WCF whipping boy to 32 wins without Sam Cassell to hit all the big shots for you :lmao

[FkLA]

Garnett lifted the Minnesota Timberwolves into the Western Conference finals as he collected 32 points, 21 rebounds and some overdue respect in an 83-80 victory over the Sacramento Kings.


In past playoff failures, Garnett was criticized for not taking control of the game. This time, he grabbed it by the throat, scoring 13 straight Minnesota points in the fourth quarter.


Minnesota was clinging to a 64-62 lead when Garnett took over. In a four-minute span, he made a jumper, an inside basket, a scoop layup and a dunk after a nasty crossover dribble that left Webber swiping at air and opened a 74-68 lead.


Sam Cassell (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sam_cassell/index.html), who had 23 points and seven assists, made two free throws at the 3:10 mark before the Kings stormed back, closing to 79-75 before Garnett stole a pass, drew a foul and made a free throw with 31 seconds left

:downspin::downspin::downspin::downspin:

[Brunodf]

Not his fault tbh...

[Arcadian]

Going by peak performances, I'll take 2004 Garnett over 2006 Dirk.

2004 Garnett: 24 ppg, 14 rpg, 5 apg, 2.2 bpg, 1.5 spg, 50 FG%, 79 FT%, 29.4 PER
2006 Nowitzki: 26 ppg, 9 rpg, 3 apg, 1.0 bpg, 0.7 spg, 48 FG%, 90 FT%, 28.1 PER

So of those categories, Garnett won 6 out of 8.

[monosylab1k]

:lmao ":cry he was more clutch than Chris Webber :cry"

[FkLA]

Yep. And he also didnt have Cassell hit all the big shots for him like you erroneously claimed you dumb gook.

[Thread]

:lmao ":cry he was more clutch than Chris Webber :cry"

Yep. He'd a never wandered away from Horry.

tee, hee.

[100%duncan]

Yep, which is why it's so sad to see Prime KG just barely miss the playoffs with those great 32-50 and 33-49 seasons :lmao

And of course Dirk has a great supporting cast with guys like Mike James while KG was wasting away with dogshit like Mike James.

shit :lmao

[Phillip]

Yep. And he also didnt have Cassell hit all the big shots for him like you erroneously claimed you dumb gook.

You're right.

Because Latrell Spreewell and was taking most of the rest.

[nowhereman523]

Why did the "2nd best SG of all-time" miss the playoffs in his prime?

[nowhereman523]

Duncan
Dirk
Barkley
Malone
Pettit

...
...
...

Hayes/Webber/McHale/KG/Rodman

[Thread]

Why did the "2nd best SG of all-time" miss the playoffs in his prime?

Why did CWEBB turn his back on Horry & commissed on up that lane?

tee, hee.

[midnightpulp]

Why did CWEBB turn his back on Horry & commissed on up that lane?

tee, hee.

Good to see you admit that your Kobe choked, just like Webber did.

[Thread]

Good to see you admit that your Kobe choked, just like Webber did.

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

ha, ha.

[midnightpulp]

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

ha, ha.

Rings are team accomplishments.

[Thread]

Rings are team accomplishments.

Fine. You take that tact. I'm stickin' with this one:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

[diego]

I never said picking up a KG is easy, I said picking up a Chandler is easier than picking up a Pierce + Rondo, which is true.

Dirk needs a guy like Chandler, and an older than granite Kidd to win a title.

KG needs a guy like Pierce and Rondo to win a title.

Now you tell me, is it easier to pick up a Chandler + Kidd, or is it easier to pick up a Pierce + Rondo.



This makes sense historically, but for the past several years I'm not sure it does.

Defensive anchor caliber bigs in the league right now:
Duncan
KG
Howard
Fat Gasol
Chandler
asik
NOah
HIbbert
Perkins
Bogut
Favors
davis

Who am I missing? Varejao maybe, or some combination of the lopez twins? Not a long list IMO, and kg/duncan/howard/gasol are legit two way players IMO (well maybe not howard :lol) and outside of favors and davis (the only under 25) they all have expensive contracts.

Is that really easier to find than scoring? because it seems every year another "go to" scorer/shooter comes into the NBA (lillard, curry, harden, westbrook, to name just a few of the under 25 guys, and that is excluding number one picks like rose or irving).

put it this way: if you are going to start a team and can choose between kevin love and noah to start your team, who do you select?
how about omer asik or david lee?

I'd rather take noah or asik and play the chances of finding a scorer through the draft or from a team that can't afford / can't keep happy the one they have than choosing love or lee and getting scoring I'll probably be able to find somewhere else much easier than a big that can cover the large whole in my defense left by love / lee.

and FYI:
in '11 the dallas mavs spent 85M+ on their champ roster
in 08 boston spent 75m+ on theirs

it would seem that if defensive specialists are so cheap and considering that kg is basically the highest paid NBA player of all time, you would think that dirk / the mavs would have had a huge advantage in having the cap space and funds to hire the readily available defensive players to have more success, and at a lower cost...

[Riddler]

Fine. You take that tact. I'm stickin' with this one:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4
So you admit Kobe's had better teams than Duncan?

[FkLA]

KG needed a closer like Pierce to close for him, because yes he isnt dominant in the clutch. No shame in that though since Shaq had Kobe and Wade close out games for him because of his FT woes. Manu closed games for the TD since like '05. Doesnt fucking mean Dirk is better than any of them. :lmao

It took a heck of alot more than just a defensive big for those Mavs to get that title. Everything that needed to go right for them did.

[FkLA]

You're right.

Because Latrell Spreewell and was taking most of the rest.

The Mavericks have grown to count on the former Sixth Man of the Year's production in the final period.

"He's been our closer over the last couple of years," Dirk Nowitzki said, "a great clutch player."

[Phillip]

This makes sense historically, but for the past several years I'm not sure it does.

Defensive anchor caliber bigs in the league right now:
Duncan
KG
Howard
Fat Gasol
Chandler
asik
NOah
HIbbert
Perkins
Bogut
Favors
davis

Who am I missing? Varejao maybe, or some combination of the lopez twins? Not a long list IMO, and kg/duncan/howard/gasol are legit two way players IMO (well maybe not howard :lol) and outside of favors and davis (the only under 25) they all have expensive contracts.

Is that really easier to find than scoring? because it seems every year another "go to" scorer/shooter comes into the NBA (lillard, curry, harden, westbrook, to name just a few of the under 25 guys, and that is excluding number one picks like rose or irving).

put it this way: if you are going to start a team and can choose between kevin love and noah to start your team, who do you select?
how about omer asik or david lee?

I'd rather take noah or asik and play the chances of finding a scorer through the draft or from a team that can't afford / can't keep happy the one they have than choosing love or lee and getting scoring I'll probably be able to find somewhere else much easier than a big that can cover the large whole in my defense left by love / lee.

and FYI:
in '11 the dallas mavs spent 85M+ on their champ roster
in 08 boston spent 75m+ on theirs

it would seem that if defensive specialists are so cheap and considering that kg is basically the highest paid NBA player of all time, you would think that dirk / the mavs would have had a huge advantage in having the cap space and funds to hire the readily available defensive players to have more success, and at a lower cost...

Well how many people right now in the NBA can put a team on their back offensively (similar to how Dirk did) and win a championship doing so?

Lebron
Kobe
Durant?
Carmello?

That's about how long that list goes, and with Durant and Carmello, its questionable at this moment as they haven't really shown the ability to do so. Durant can score in large volume and hits clutch jumpers due to his ridiculous range, sure, but what if his jumper isn't falling? Can he still manufacture points for himself in other ways, as well as his teammates? He still has yet to prove that. Carmello is one of the most unstoppable scorers ever, but his mentality is what has always been questionable, as he doesn't appear to consistently show a strong desire to win at all costs, and his shot selection is absolutely atrocious.

There are plenty of solid scorers, but many of whom you listed (Lillard, Harden, Westbrook, Curry) I strongly doubt can offensively carry a team through 4 playoff series against the best teams and defenses in the NBA.

[Phillip]

The Mavericks have grown to count on the former Sixth Man of the Year's production in the final period.

"He's been our closer over the last couple of years," Dirk Nowitzki said, "a great clutch player."

Neat.

Want to see something neater?

Since Dirk and Terry has been playing together, only in one season (last year when Dirk was dealing with injuries and taking a reduced role) has Terry scored more points than Dirk has in clutch time. Even then, Dirk's +/- stats were noticably higher than Terry's in clutch time.

So is it so much that Terry was the true closer? Or that Dirk was being excessively complimentary of his teammates (as he has been known to do) to keep their confidence as high as possible?

[diego]

point taken, but then again outside of duncan none of the defensive guys I listed are near kg's caliber, on either end of the court. Maybe, maybe you could count pre lakers howard and chandler, if you only consider D.

whereas on O, i think you certainly can consider several guys as being on dirk's level, and just from the active players that actually proved it:
lebron
kobe
pierce
duncan
wade

they all showed they could be their teams offensive focal point on their way to a 'ship.
and I would add players like Durant and Melo (despite despising both!) to that list w/o even thinking about it, because even w/o being champions they have shown they can carry their team's offense at an exceptionally high level.

so lets exclude duncan, kg and dirk from this and we get:

lebron
kobe
pierce
wade
durant

vs

howard
chandler

it seems to me like its easier to find the offensive player than the defensive one, at least for the past 5-6 years...

[Phillip]

KG needed a closer like Pierce to close for him, because yes he isnt dominant in the clutch. No shame in that though since Shaq had Kobe and Wade close out games for him because of his FT woes. Manu closed games for the TD since like '05. Doesnt fucking mean Dirk is better than any of them. :lmao


Granted, guards have an advantage in general in crunchtime of games. However, even if Kobe or Wade or Manu was taking the final shots, generally the offense in clutch time was still being ran heavily through Shaq or Duncan. They would frequently receive the ball, get extra defensive attention, then kick out to someone who had plenty of space to get off a high percentage shot. Perfect example was 06 Mavs/Spurs series. Duncan receives the ball, Terry doubles him off of Manu, and Manu has a wide open 3 to take a 3 point lead with like 30 seconds to go.

KG rarely received the kind of defensive attention that Duncan and Shaq got, and especially not the kind of attention Dirk still draws to this day.

[Phillip]

whereas on O, i think you certainly can consider several guys as being on dirk's level, and just from the active players that actually proved it:
lebron
kobe
pierce
duncan
wade


Yes, Pierce, Duncan and Wade have all done it at a point in their careers, but can they do it right now? No. It's kind of silly to list all those people who are defensive anchors right now, then try to throw in people who haven't been able to put a team on their back offensively through an entire playoff run for years now in a list to try to prove your point. And at the point when Dirk won a championship, none of those guys even then seemed to have that ability. At that point in time, Kobe and Dirk were the only two in the league who both had proven they could do it, and were currently capable of doing it.

[FkLA]

Neat.

Want to see something neater?

Since Dirk and Terry has been playing together, only in one season (last year when Dirk was dealing with injuries and taking a reduced role) has Terry scored more points than Dirk has in clutch time. Even then, Dirk's +/- stats were noticably higher than Terry's in clutch time.

So is it so much that Terry was the true closer? Or that Dirk was being excessively complimentary of his teammates (as he has been known to do) to keep their confidence as high as possible?

links?

Either way it doesnt mean it was uncommon for Terry to take big shots. Which is funny considering you guys love to rag on KG because Spree and Cassell took some late game shots. Not to mention :cry Pierce had to close him out to a championship:cry. :lol

[Phillip]

and I would add players like Durant and Melo (despite despising both!) to that list w/o even thinking about it, because even w/o being champions they have shown they can carry their team's offense at an exceptionally high level.

until they face an elite playoff defense. they both have done their work against crappy to average defenses, then wither when faced with a strong defense.



lebron
kobe
pierce
wade
durant

vs

howard
chandler

it seems to me like its easier to find the offensive player than the defensive one, at least for the past 5-6 years...

um, no. You really think that many of those players listed earlier are incapable of being a defensive anchor for a championship team? I'd say most if not all are fully capable of doing so. If Luc Longley could be the big-man for a 3-peat, I'm sure those guys are fully capable of doing so as well.

[Phillip]

links?

Either way it doesnt mean it was uncommon for Terry to take big shots. Which is funny considering you guys love to rag on KG because Spree and Cassell took some late game shots. Not to mention :cry Pierce had to close him out to a championship:cry. :lol

Lazy ass. It's called google.

http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClutch.html?Season=2011-12&sortField=PTS&sortOrder=DES



Um, no we are not ragging on KG for allowing Pierce, Allen, Spree and Cassell to take big shots, because even MJ had to give up shots to Steve Kerr and John Paxson. The ragging comes from the fact that they were the ones making basically all the big shots in the playoffs. Seriously, without going and digging up a ton of research, how many big-time, clutch shots can anyone here really remember KG hitting? The only series I really remember him having any kind of standout, memorable performances was against the Kings in the 04 Playoffs.

lol it might even be possible that Dirk hit more big-time clutch shots in the 11 Finals alone, than KG has in his entire playoff career :lmao

[midnightpulp]

Neat.

Want to see something neater?

Since Dirk and Terry has been playing together, only in one season (last year when Dirk was dealing with injuries and taking a reduced role) has Terry scored more points than Dirk has in clutch time. Even then, Dirk's +/- stats were noticably higher than Terry's in clutch time.

So is it so much that Terry was the true closer? Or that Dirk was being excessively complimentary of his teammates (as he has been known to do) to keep their confidence as high as possible?

:lmao at FKLA referencing player quotes as evidence of anything.

"Amare is the best bigman in the league."

- Shaq

In the interest of boosting team morale, a good teammate will say things like that even if they don't believe it themselves. Dirk's comment was a prime example of that. Unfortunately, the stats don't support Dirk's comment. In 2011, Dirk averaged 3 more points in clutch time, shot twice as many FTs, and was assisted on 39% of his shots, while Terry was assisted on 59% of his attempts, suggesting that the majority of Terry's looks were created by other players.

Terry was definitely one hell of a clutch time second option, but he was never, at any time, the Mavericks' primary closer.

[FkLA]

Granted, guards have an advantage in general in crunchtime of games. However, even if Kobe or Wade or Manu was taking the final shots, generally the offense in clutch time was still being ran heavily through Shaq or Duncan. They would frequently receive the ball, get extra defensive attention, then kick out to someone who had plenty of space to get off a high percentage shot. Perfect example was 06 Mavs/Spurs series. Duncan receives the ball, Terry doubles him off of Manu, and Manu has a wide open 3 to take a 3 point lead with like 30 seconds to go.

KG rarely received the kind of defensive attention that Duncan and Shaq got, and especially not the kind of attention Dirk still draws to this day.

You are such a homer, man. :lol

First, yeah KG wasnt as good as TD or Shaq but neither was Dirk. Thats not a knock on him seeing as theyre Top 10 all-time. But he still garnered a shit load of attention, unless you think the Wolves were going to Wally/Troy Hudson/Ricky Davis down the stretch all those years. Him not having a solid #2 to open up things for him other than in 2004 and when he arrived in Boston probably has something to do with his shortcomings in the clutch as well. In 2004 he was fine in the clutch, same when in Boston. Sure Cassell and Pierce took some big shots but again I dont see what the big deal with that is, when the two best big men of our generation routinely deferred in the clutch as well.

[Phillip]

:lmao at FKLA referencing player quotes as evidence of anything.

"Amare is the best bigman in the league."

- Shaq


back in 2002 Shaq even said Dirk is the 2nd best player in the league. I guess that really meant something, eh? :lmao

[Phillip]

You are such a homer, man. :lol

First, yeah KG wasnt as good as TD or Shaq but neither was Dirk.

I never said Dirk was as good of a player as TD or Shaq. Just that KG never came close to receiving the defensive attention that those 3 did.


But he still garnered a shit load of attention, unless you think the Wolves were going to Wally/Troy Hudson/Ricky Davis down the stretch all those years. Him not having a solid #2 to open up things for him other than in 2004 and when he arrived in Boston probably has something to do with his shortcomings in the clutch as well. In 2004 he was fine in the clutch, same when in Boston. Sure Cassell and Pierce took some big shots but again I dont see what the big deal with that is, when the two best big men of our generation routinely deferred in the clutch as well.

The two best big men routinely had offense ran through them in the clutch. KG generally was known for shying away from the ball, pretty much only touching it in crunch time when he was given a wide open mid-range jumper, which somehow he was also widely known for consistently bricking once it was clutch time, despite being an otherwise reliable mid-range shooter.

[FkLA]

Yeah, lets take the statements of a loud and obnoxious guy like Shaq the same way we take the statements of a soft-spoken, upstanding citizen like Diggler.

[Phillip]

It's still funny how adamant FKLA is here about his opinion, when almost no one is backing him up.

Yet, there have been plenty of Spurfans who have came in here, and basically disputed his bullshit claims. :lol

[FkLA]

I never said Dirk was as good of a player as TD or Shaq. Just that KG never came close to receiving the defensive attention that those 3 did.



The two best big men routinely had offense ran through them in the clutch. KG generally was known for shying away from the ball, pretty much only touching it in crunch time when he was given a wide open mid-range jumper, which somehow he was also widely known for consistently bricking once it was clutch time, despite being an otherwise reliable mid-range shooter.

Its funny that you mention that considering how Dirk himself went through stages when he deferred, and was widely considered soft prior to 2011. But no, KG never deferred to the extent you are claiming when he had guys like Wally as his #2. The offense probably ran through him more than TD or Shaq in the clutch actually, since he didnt have Kobe or Manu at his disposal. He routinely deferred to Cassell and Pierce, but again why is that such a big deal considering how good those two players are in crunchtime.


It's still funny how adamant FKLA is here about his opinion, when almost no one is backing him up.

Yet, there have been plenty of Spurfans who have came in here, and basically disputed his bullshit claims. :lol

:lol making fun of gnsf all the time, but conveniently using them now as 'proof'

Spurfan has always loved themselves some Dirk. Probably cause he is a nice guy all about class while KG is a loud asshole. Same reason they detest Terry. Follow your own advice though and do a quick google search...forums or professional writers/columnists. Youd be surprised how many people rate KG higher and dont put Dirk anywhere near #2 PF all-time.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, lets take the statements of a loud and obnoxious guy like Shaq the same way we take the statements of a soft-spoken, upstanding citizen like Diggler.

Um. In my experience, soft-spoken, upstanding citizens are the people most likely to be over-complimentary.

[diego]

It's kind of silly to list all those people who are defensive anchors right now, then try to throw in people who haven't been able to put a team on their back offensively through an entire playoff run for years now in a list to try to prove your point. And at the point when Dirk won a championship, none of those guys even then seemed to have that ability. At that point in time, Kobe and Dirk were the only two in the league who both had proven they could do it, and were currently capable of doing it.

well, a lot of the anchors i listed are not really great defensive anchors RIGHT NOW, but either were or will be, but i included them anyway (perkins, bogut, favors, davis, gasol, hibbert..)
and if we said proven championship caliber, the list drops to 3.

in 2011 I think lebron, kobe, pierce, and wade were *capable* of doing it. the fact that 3 of them didnt do it and dirk did obviously swings it in dirk's favor but my post was more about the availability of defensive / offensive players. I think its a reality of the league nowadays (because of rule changes and play styles) that it is easier to find prolific offensive players than prolific defensive players, let alone the "anchor" types who can improve the entire team's defense...

[FkLA]

well, a lot of the anchors i listed are not really great defensive anchors RIGHT NOW, but either were or will be, but i included them anyway (perkins, bogut, favors, davis, gasol, hibbert..)
and if we said proven championship caliber, the list drops to 3.

in 2011 I think lebron, kobe, pierce, and wade were *capable* of doing it. the fact that 3 of them didnt do it and dirk did obviously swings it in dirk's favor but my post was more about the availability of defensive / offensive players. I think its a reality of the league nowadays (because of rule changes and play styles) that it is easier to find prolific offensive players than prolific defensive players, let alone the "anchor" types who can improve the entire team's defense...

Great points, diego. :tu

Not only that man but these fools make it seem like the only thing Dirk needed in 2011 was Chandler. Every starter in their line-up was better defensively than Dirk. The shooters got hot, guys like Peja played out of their minds considering their previous playoff history. Turtle Head for as much shit as he got for not being a capable #2 played like one. Not to mention The King completely choking helped alot too. Everything went right, the likelihood of all those things repeating with or without Chandler wouldnt have been high.

[FkLA]

Um. In my experience, soft-spoken, upstanding citizens are the people most likely to be over-complimentary.

Arent you the same guy that scoffs me for using my own experience with illegals? :lol

But yea because of his humility Dirk routinely says stupid shit like 'Bynum is the best center in the NBA' or 'DeAndre Jordan is the best center in the West'.

[diego]

um, no. You really think that many of those players listed earlier are incapable of being a defensive anchor for a championship team? I'd say most if not all are fully capable of doing so. If Luc Longley could be the big-man for a 3-peat, I'm sure those guys are fully capable of doing so as well.
please, as if those bulls defense was carried by longley. you know perfectly well who did.

I guess fisher is a championship caliber playmaker because he was the lakers starting pg for their 3peat. stupid

[Phillip]

Great points, diego. :tu

Not only that man but these fools make it seem like the only thing Dirk needed in 2011 was Chandler. Every starter in their line-up was better defensively than Dirk. The shooters got hot, guys like Peja played out of their minds considering their previous playoff history. Turtle Head for as much shit as he got for not being a capable #2 played like one. Not to mention The King completely choking helped alot too. Everything went right, the likelihood of all those things repeating with or without Chandler wouldnt have been high.

No one said anything about Dirk not needing help. Every champion needs help. But Dirk stepped up through the entire playoffs in a way that has only been seen twice in the last 15 years, by Timmy in 03, and Lebron last year.

lol mad

[midnightpulp]

Arent you the same guy that scoffs me for using my own experience with illegals? :lol

But yea because of his humility Dirk routinely says stupid shit like 'Bynum is the best center in the NBA' or 'DeAndre Jordan is the best center in the West'.

Humble people tend to be over-complimentary. It's a trait most humble personalities share.

[Phillip]

please, as if those bulls defense was carried by longley. you know perfectly well who did.

I guess fisher is a championship caliber playmaker because he was the lakers starting pg for their 3peat. stupid

I didn't say he carried the defense, did I? I just said he was the man in the middle, and he did a very solid job of doing what he needed to. You mean to tell me that many of those centers you listed couldn't do what was asked of him? They can't clog the paint, grab rebounds, and do the dirty work? That is no different than what Chandler did for the Mavs. He clogged the paint, grabbed rebounds, and did dirty work. But he wasn't exactly running around shutting people down. That was Marion, Kidd, and Stevenson. Now I'm not saying all of those centers could have replaced Chandler, and helped the Mavs win a title, but plenty of them absolutely could have.

You really think Hibbert, Gasol, or Noah couldn't help take a championship contending team like Miami's or OKC's defense to another level? Come on now.

[monosylab1k]

Well you gotta admire Fkla's stubborn resilience. Even in the face of massive bukkake's, he just wipes his eyes and asks for more.

[monosylab1k]

lol KG couldn't win a title without big daddy perkins manning the middle for him.

[monosylab1k]

So KG needed Pierce to hit clutch shots and Perkins to D up the middle for him. What was KG doing?

[monosylab1k]

"Pierce hit the clutch shots but KG was their #1 guy :cry"

Finals MVP: Paul Pierce

"Dirk needed Tyson and Jet to win him a title :cry"

Finals MVP: Dirk Nowitzki

[FkLA]

No one said anything about Dirk not needing help. Every champion needs help. But Dirk stepped up through the entire playoffs in a way that has only been seen twice in the last 15 years, by Timmy in 03, and Lebron last year.

lol mad

Offensively, yes. Timmy and LeBron also dominated defensively tbh.

I was just expanding on diegos point. Finding a guard to pair him up with like Pierce, or what TD and Shaq had with Manu and Kobe respectively is easier than having all the things I listed that went right in 2011 for the Mavs. Doesnt even require a player of that caliber, since he did fine with someone like Cassell who was a great closer but not as good a player as the three I mentioned. I can see how you wouldnt think so though since youre the biggest homer on this site imho.


Humble people tend to be over-complimentary. It's a trait most humble personalities share.

Or if theyre soft spoken they also tend to not say much at all, good or bad. Either way are you suggesting we should take something Shaq, who spouts ridiculous shit left and right, says with the same seriousness as we take something Dirk says ?

[FkLA]

lol four posts in a row

[ambchang]

This makes sense historically, but for the past several years I'm not sure it does.

Defensive anchor caliber bigs in the league right now:
Duncan
KG
Howard
Fat Gasol
Chandler
asik
NOah
HIbbert
Perkins
Bogut
Favors
davis

Who am I missing? Varejao maybe, or some combination of the lopez twins? Not a long list IMO, and kg/duncan/howard/gasol are legit two way players IMO (well maybe not howard :lol) and outside of favors and davis (the only under 25) they all have expensive contracts.

Is that really easier to find than scoring? because it seems every year another "go to" scorer/shooter comes into the NBA (lillard, curry, harden, westbrook, to name just a few of the under 25 guys, and that is excluding number one picks like rose or irving).

put it this way: if you are going to start a team and can choose between kevin love and noah to start your team, who do you select?
how about omer asik or david lee?

I'd rather take noah or asik and play the chances of finding a scorer through the draft or from a team that can't afford / can't keep happy the one they have than choosing love or lee and getting scoring I'll probably be able to find somewhere else much easier than a big that can cover the large whole in my defense left by love / lee.

and FYI:
in '11 the dallas mavs spent 85M+ on their champ roster
in 08 boston spent 75m+ on theirs

it would seem that if defensive specialists are so cheap and considering that kg is basically the highest paid NBA player of all time, you would think that dirk / the mavs would have had a huge advantage in having the cap space and funds to hire the readily available defensive players to have more success, and at a lower cost...

Not entirely sure I would put volume shooters in place of Pierce, players like Lillard, Curry, Westbrook are not crafty players you can go go in the clutch for a championship team. Harden we have yet to see. Pierce was a fantastic player, and still is. He provides a skill set that very few players in the league can duplicate.

That said, Chandler is the equivalent on defense, and outside of Noah, (coincidentally) KG, maybe a healthy Bogut, Marc Gasol, , and Asik, I don't think he is that easily replaceable.

I still maintain scorers who can carry a championship, or at least close for a championship team, is more difficult to find than defensive players who can anchor a championship team.

As for the roster cost, Chandler was making $12.6M in 11, and the two contracts > $10 were actually of scorers (Terry and Caron Butler)
In 08, Pierce was making $16.4M, the other contract over $10M was Allen's at $16M. The rest of the roster is filled with relatively low cost defenders like Perkins, Allen, House and Posey.

[FkLA]

That said, Chandler is the equivalent on defense, and outside of Noah, (coincidentally) KG, maybe a healthy Bogut, Marc Gasol, , and Asik, I don't think he is that easily replaceable.

Chandler is alot more mobile and covers more ground than the last three. Noah is a great defensive player but not sure I put him up there as Chandlers equal. The only player I think couldve duplicated Chandlers impact is probably pre-Lakers Dwight. Both were easily the two best interior defenders in 2011.

[ambchang]

I wouldn't put Chandler on that exclusive a club. I think Noah can duplicate, or even better what Chandler does. Bogut is a fantastic, yet underrated defender. Howard is most definitely there, just that he is a superstar level player instead of a role player.

Also forgot about Varajeo.

If we go back a few years, a healthy Camby (overrated, but still ...), the Wallace brothers, and Jermaine O'Neal could have duplicated what Chandler did.

[Brunodf]

Noah is much better than Chandler tbh...

[Jodelo]

:lmao at FKLA referencing player quotes as evidence of anything.

"Amare is the best bigman in the league."

- Shaq

In the interest of boosting team morale, a good teammate will say things like that even if they don't believe it themselves. Dirk's comment was a prime example of that. Unfortunately, the stats don't support Dirk's comment. In 2011, Dirk averaged 3 more points in clutch time, shot twice as many FTs, and was assisted on 39% of his shots, while Terry was assisted on 59% of his attempts, suggesting that the majority of Terry's looks were created by other players.

Terry was definitely one hell of a clutch time second option, but he was never, at any time, the Mavericks' primary closer.

:toast

So FaggotkLA answered all posts but this... Iiiiinteresting!

[Thread]

Noah is much better than Chandler tbh...

We're bombasted with that opine. Chandler though actually did it. Put the entire roster and Cuban on his shoulders and carried them to it. They kicked & screamed the entire way, but, they went.

All Noah as to do is do it.
Chop/chop.

[Phillip]

Offensively, yes. Timmy and LeBron also dominated defensively tbh.

I was just expanding on diegos point. Finding a guard to pair him up with like Pierce, or what TD and Shaq had with Manu and Kobe respectively is easier than having all the things I listed that went right in 2011 for the Mavs. Doesnt even require a player of that caliber, since he did fine with someone like Cassell who was a great closer but not as good a player as the three I mentioned. I can see how you wouldnt think so though since youre the biggest homer on this site imho.



Or if theyre soft spoken they also tend to not say much at all, good or bad. Either way are you suggesting we should take something Shaq, who spouts ridiculous shit left and right, says with the same seriousness as we take something Dirk says ?

lol still alone in your dumbassery

[FkLA]

I wouldn't put Chandler on that exclusive a club. I think Noah can duplicate, or even better what Chandler does. Bogut is a fantastic, yet underrated defender. Howard is most definitely there, just that he is a superstar level player instead of a role player.

Also forgot about Varajeo.

If we go back a few years, a healthy Camby (overrated, but still ...), the Wallace brothers, and Jermaine O'Neal could have duplicated what Chandler did.

Varejao and Camby replicating Chandler is laughable. Sheed on his own and not as a tandem with Big Ben is laughable too.

Regardless of that though, thats far from all Dirk needs to win a title. He would require very solid defenders starting alongside him as well, since every other starter on that team was a better defender than Dirk. Shooters to catch lightning in a bottle and shoot lights out almost every game. The King to continue choking forever. And himself to have ridiculously efficient shooting percentages. Its not as simple as giving him an anchor.

[FkLA]

lol still alone in your dumbassery

link where the majority of fans and writers/columnists rate dirk higher than the 2ndPFGOAT aka KG ?

[FkLA]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=151531223&page=1

http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/7282-starting-a-franchise-kevin-garnett-or-dirk-nowitzki-during-their-prime/

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?638399-Starting-a-Team-Dirk-Nowitzki-vs-Kevin-Garnett

http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/8052-prime-kg-vs-prime-dirk/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/kevin-garnett-vs-dirk-nowitzki.203021215/page-5 (http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/kevin-garnett-vs-dirk-nowitzki.203021215/page-5)

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=513827 *added this one since two of the other five were from same site







Five polls I found with a quick google search. Recent and after Dirk won his title, some really fresh off the title. Last one did give the edge to Dirk.

:cry but FkLA is just dumb and alone in his opinion, Dirk is way better :cry

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Well you gotta admire Fkla's stubborn resilience. Even in the face of massive bukkake's, he just wipes his eyes and asks for more.

:lol

[monosylab1k]

lol bodybuilding.com

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i53/5/4/20/frabz-NO-MORE-CUM-PLEASE-575d04.jpg
(http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/kevin-garnett-vs-dirk-nowitzki.203021215/page-5)

[DAF86]

Well you gotta admire Fkla's stubborn resilience. Even in the face of massive bukkake's, he just wipes his eyes and asks for more.


:lol

Typical MK move: pussy gang attack declaring themselves winners to try to get the weaker minds on their side and make it seem like their reatarded homer opinions aren't shitty as fuck. Gotta give them props though, it works with all the mindless suckups that exist here :tu

[LkrFan]

Well you gotta admire Fkla's stubborn resilience. Even in the face of massive bukkake's, he just wipes his eyes and asks for more.
:rollin :lmao :rollin

[DAF86]

Exhibit A, tbh.

[monosylab1k]

Typical MK move: pussy gang attack declaring themselves winners to try to get the weaker minds on their side and make it seem like their reatarded homer opinions aren't shitty as fuck. Gotta give them props though, it works with all the mindless suckups that exist here :tu

lol it's nice how you're trying to be Fkla's semen shield now, but you gotta move quicker. Consult hemann82 for proper semen shielding technique tbh.

[diego]

I didn't say he carried the defense, did I? I just said he was the man in the middle, and he did a very solid job of doing what he needed to. You mean to tell me that many of those centers you listed couldn't do what was asked of him? They can't clog the paint, grab rebounds, and do the dirty work? That is no different than what Chandler did for the Mavs. He clogged the paint, grabbed rebounds, and did dirty work. But he wasn't exactly running around shutting people down. That was Marion, Kidd, and Stevenson. Now I'm not saying all of those centers could have replaced Chandler, and helped the Mavs win a title, but plenty of them absolutely could have.

You really think Hibbert, Gasol, or Noah couldn't help take a championship contending team like Miami's or OKC's defense to another level? Come on now.

of course I think they could, thats why I listed them, but I think they are just as coveted / highly paid as a scorer is. I think hibbert and gasol should continue to improve defensively, but right now neither uses their size as well as chandler does on D.

and the longley comparison still sucks, he was more of an offensive player than a defensive player. at most you could argue he clogged the lane because of his size, but he was not a rebounder, not a shot blocker, not someone who could switch on pick and rolls... rodman and pippen were the ones grabbing boards and doing the dirty work.

[FkLA]

lol it's nice how you're trying to be Fkla's semen shield now, but you gotta move quicker. Consult hemann82 for proper semen shielding technique tbh.

:cry maybe if i use hilarious terms like bukkakee and semen shield people wont realize what a stupid, homerish gook i am :cry

[Thread]

right now neither uses their size as well as chandler does on D.

That's it, right there.

& what enables Chandler to use his size so admirably? Because he uses his head first. A novel approach, but, altogether what led to the Mav's ringin' in '11.

[FkLA]

lol bodybuilding.com

Alot of good info on there about nutrition and lifting. Would recommend to your fat ass tbh. Real talk hit up the 'Losing Fat' section, youll be surprised how easy it is to lose weight. :tu

[monosylab1k]

Alot of good info on there about nutrition and lifting. Would recommend to your fat ass tbh. Real talk hit up the 'Losing Fat' section, youll be surprised how easy it is to lose weight. :tu

lol no thanks, i'm getting in shape just fine on my own. If i ever want that doughey wetback look tho, i'll hit u up for advice.

[Thread]

.

At home, Tuna? Where your children sleep & your wife comes to sit on a 14 incher.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Alot of good info on there about nutrition and lifting. Would recommend to your fat ass tbh. Real talk hit up the 'Losing Fat' section, youll be surprised how easy it is to lose weight. :tu

:lol bodybuilding.com

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

If i ever want that doughey wetback look tho, i'll hit u up for advice.

:lol

[FkLA]

lol no thanks, i'm getting in shape just fine on my own. If i ever want that doughey wetback look tho, i'll hit u up for advice.

Alot of shit on cardio and HIIT routines too if youre just looking to be a little skinny gook with no muscle. Check it out, tubby. :tu

[Leon Black]

Alot of shit on cardio and HIIT routines too if youre just looking to be a little skinny gook with no muscle. Check it out, tubby. :tu

:lmao "bodybuilder"

[FkLA]

Nope. Im not a bodybuilder, just in good shape tbh. :)

[diego]

Not entirely sure I would put volume shooters in place of Pierce, players like Lillard, Curry, Westbrook are not crafty players you can go go in the clutch for a championship team. Harden we have yet to see. Pierce was a fantastic player, and still is. He provides a skill set that very few players in the league can duplicate.

That said, Chandler is the equivalent on defense, and outside of Noah, (coincidentally) KG, maybe a healthy Bogut, Marc Gasol, , and Asik, I don't think he is that easily replaceable.

I still maintain scorers who can carry a championship, or at least close for a championship team, is more difficult to find than defensive players who can anchor a championship team.

As for the roster cost, Chandler was making $12.6M in 11, and the two contracts > $10 were actually of scorers (Terry and Caron Butler)
In 08, Pierce was making $16.4M, the other contract over $10M was Allen's at $16M. The rest of the roster is filled with relatively low cost defenders like Perkins, Allen, House and Posey.

the point of listing the roster cost, is that the supposedly "easier" to accomodate dirk needed a more expensive roster than the "difficult" kg. The only reason it was difficult to surround kg with talent, was his massive salary. its his own damn fault, but it has nothing to do with his play. you cant discount how much of his career suffered from being in a shitty organization, as dirk fans are finding out these last two seasons.

both you and philip are only considering "proven, championship caliber" offensive players, then arguing that defensive players are easily replaceable. I just dont think its that easy.

are you telling me that someone like ibaka or sanders or noah or chandler himself could have replaced kg on the 08 celtics and voila! they dominate and win a ship just like that? I dont think any of them combines KG's entire defensive skillset, tenacity, basketball iq, not to mention efficient scoring well beyond any of the players mentioned. Lets be clear, he's childish, a pussy and an asshole, but he brings quite a lot to the table.

Dirk also has a unique skillset, but IMO the mismatches he creates on offense are offset by his defensive limitations, whereas with KG his versatility means he is always contributing.

I seem to remember you making a thread recently comparing advanced stats from championship runs...

KG 08:

Ortg 112 Drtg 99, net= 13 OWS 2.1 DWS 2.0 WS 4.1 WS/48 .199

Dirk in 11:
Ortg 115 Drtg 105, net = 10 OWS 2.7 DWS 0.9 WS 3.6 WS/48 .21

That tells me KG was way more important to the 08 celtics than dirk to the 11 mavs; the only thing dirk has there is better efficiency, but lower impact. do you agree?

[monosylab1k]

Alot of shit on cardio and HIIT routines too if youre just looking to be a little skinny gook with no muscle. Check it out, tubby. :tu

lol doughey wetback giving fitness tips

[Thread]

^
At home, Tuna? Where your children sleep & your wife comes to sit on a 14 incher.

[monosylab1k]

^

The Skunker!!!

[Lincoln]

I go on bb.com mainly just for the misc section it provides the lulz

[Thread]

The Skunker!!!

I knew I'd get ya to talk to me.

Love always,

- Cubby

[FkLA]

lol doughey wetback giving fitness tips

lol at you calling anyone 'doughey'

[Fergie The Florists]

Thoughts on this thread:

fkla is a gigantic faggot. Getting bukkaked every which way he turns. I've been there buddy.

[monosylab1k]

I knew I'd get ya to talk to me.

Love always,

- Cubby

Did Neal rape? I'm not so sure. Please give me an emphatic, definitive answer.

[FkLA]

I go on bb.com mainly just for the misc section it provides the lulz

the misc is the douchiest forum ive come across thats what makes it funny imo

[FkLA]

Why did it take this long for the trolls to come out in defense of the stupid gook brothers ?

[Lincoln]

Nah most misers dont even lift lol and just ebrag about pussy they don't get

[Thread]

Did Neal rape? I'm not so sure. Please give me an emphatic, definitive answer.

YesPERIOD

[monosylab1k]

YesPERIOD

Another one for the scavenger hunt!

[Fergie The Florists]

Why did it take this long for the trolls to come out in defense of the stupid gook brothers ?

Nobody is coming to that faggots defense. You just so happen to be the biggest faggot here...... which makes Mono look less faggety tbh

[FkLA]

the point of listing the roster cost, is that the supposedly "easier" to accomodate dirk needed a more expensive roster than the "difficult" kg. The only reason it was difficult to surround kg with talent, was his massive salary. its his own damn fault, but it has nothing to do with his play. you cant discount how much of his career suffered from being in a shitty organization, as dirk fans are finding out these last two seasons.

both you and philip are only considering "proven, championship caliber" offensive players, then arguing that defensive players are easily replaceable. I just dont think its that easy.

are you telling me that someone like ibaka or sanders or noah or chandler himself could have replaced kg on the 08 celtics and voila! they dominate and win a ship just like that? I dont think any of them combines KG's entire defensive skillset, tenacity, basketball iq, not to mention efficient scoring well beyond any of the players mentioned. Lets be clear, he's childish, a pussy and an asshole, but he brings quite a lot to the table.

Dirk also has a unique skillset, but IMO the mismatches he creates on offense are offset by his defensive limitations, whereas with KG his versatility means he is always contributing.

I seem to remember you making a thread recently comparing advanced stats from championship runs...

KG 08:

Ortg 112 Drtg 99, net= 13 OWS 2.1 DWS 2.0 WS 4.1 WS/48 .199

Dirk in 11:
Ortg 115 Drtg 105, net = 10 OWS 2.7 DWS 0.9 WS 3.6 WS/48 .21

That tells me KG was way more important to the 08 celtics than dirk to the 11 mavs; the only thing dirk has there is better efficiency, but lower impact. do you agree?

Yo you allright in my book, diego. You killin' em bro.

These sorry homers will ignore your post like the plague but I see you.

[Fergie The Florists]

:lol "mk killa" delusional a bit nigga?

[FkLA]

<----- mk killa :hat

[monosylab1k]

<-------- oh hey u can change those! Oh boy!

[FkLA]

reported to Kori Ellis and timvpimp for using that term in user title tbh

[monosylab1k]

reported to kori and timvpimp for using that term in user title tbh

Shemale porn sent to your pm box. Oh wait you would actually enjoy getting that.

[FkLA]

Youre a great smack talker tbh. How do you do it ?

[Latarian Milton]

estoy estudiando español en un nivel muy prematuro, pero quiero hacer un discusión en español con tu fkla, mi hermano. ¿Qué llamo de AIM tiene Usted?

[ambchang]

Varejao and Camby replicating Chandler is laughable. Sheed on his own and not as a tandem with Big Ben is laughable too.

Regardless of that though, thats far from all Dirk needs to win a title. He would require very solid defenders starting alongside him as well, since every other starter on that team was a better defender than Dirk. Shooters to catch lightning in a bottle and shoot lights out almost every game. The King to continue choking forever. And himself to have ridiculously efficient shooting percentages. Its not as simple as giving him an anchor.

Everybody needs a team around them to win a championship. Even Jordan needed a Pippen and the right guys around him (shooting "PG"s who plays off ball, defensive centers to contain the likes of Ewing, shooting centers to open up the middle, strong rebounders, a coach to massage his ego), so I am not sure what you are trying to get at.

As for Varajao and Camby, we can disagree, but both are decent defensive players who can take care of the middle, especially sideshow bob.

[Phillip]

of course I think they could, thats why I listed them, but I think they are just as coveted / highly paid as a scorer is. I think hibbert and gasol should continue to improve defensively, but right now neither uses their size as well as chandler does on D.

So if you had a chance to build your team around a prime Paul Pierce, or build around a prime Tyson Chandler, who do you build around?

[Thread]

^Chandler. Pierce tries to "cut in line" & cheat the system. Chandler will work it out in his head and then proceed.

Chandler is a winner in a winner's circle.
Pierce is a loser in a winner's circle. It happens that way sometimes.

[Kidd K]

Since when is all the way up to Dirk #2? :lol

Do Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, and Kevin Garnett not exist in this dimension or something?

Mavs suck though. I predicted they wouldn't make the playoffs before the season started. It was fairly obvious their team wasn't strong enough to get there, coupled with Dirk being injured early on which expectedly started them off in a hole.

They're not quite as bad as their record indicates, but they're not really much better anyway, and Dirk missing that time early hurt their positioning a lot.

[ambchang]

the point of listing the roster cost, is that the supposedly "easier" to accomodate dirk needed a more expensive roster than the "difficult" kg. The only reason it was difficult to surround kg with talent, was his massive salary. its his own damn fault, but it has nothing to do with his play. you cant discount how much of his career suffered from being in a shitty organization, as dirk fans are finding out these last two seasons.

While it’s a decent approach, it is often times misleading.
1) You are assuming higher salaries means tougher skills to duplicate, but there are always dumbass GMs out there , especially in the mid to late 00’s, that would give crazy dollars to mediocre talent
2) Looking at total salary is equivalent. Is it easier to sign 1 $15M player and 12 $2M players for a total salary of $39M, or is it easier to sign 13 $3M players for a total of $39M? I would argue the later is easier, because there are way more $3M guys than that one $15M guy.

both you and philip are only considering "proven, championship caliber" offensive players, then arguing that defensive players are easily replaceable. I just dont think its that easy.

I am not assuming that, I would take, say a guy like Durant, in place of Pierce, or like my earlier post alluded to, Harden, or even some guy like a pre-injury Brandon Roy. But those are crafty scorers, not volume scores. Pierce belongs to the first group, and those guys are hard to come by.


are you telling me that someone like ibaka or sanders or noah or chandler himself could have replaced kg on the 08 celtics and voila! they dominate and win a ship just like that? I dont think any of them combines KG's entire defensive skillset, tenacity, basketball iq, not to mention efficient scoring well beyond any of the players mentioned. Lets be clear, he's childish, a pussy and an asshole, but he brings quite a lot to the table.

No, I am saying Noah can replace Chandler. Haven’t thought about Ibaka or Sanders, but I haven’t seen Sanders enough to have an opinion, and I don’t think Ibaka can ever man a championship defense, he needs a lot more help around him.


Dirk also has a unique skillset, but IMO the mismatches he creates on offense are offset by his defensive limitations, whereas with KG his versatility means he is always contributing.

I seem to remember you making a thread recently comparing advanced stats from championship runs...

KG 08:

Ortg 112 Drtg 99, net= 13 OWS 2.1 DWS 2.0 WS 4.1 WS/48 .199

Dirk in 11:
Ortg 115 Drtg 105, net = 10 OWS 2.7 DWS 0.9 WS 3.6 WS/48 .21

That tells me KG was way more important to the 08 celtics than dirk to the 11 mavs; the only thing dirk has there is better efficiency, but lower impact. do you agree?
I was surprised by the stats myself, and I am not saying that Dirk is better than KG. What I am saying is that it is easier to build a championship team around Dirk than it is to do so with KG because of what they bring to the table.

I also don’t think Dirk is that terrible on defense. His 105 Drtg is average, but not terrible, and as long as you can find someone like Chandler beside him, the frontline is set. For KG, you have to have a guy like Pierce, and my opinion is that it is easier to get a guy like Chandler than to get a guy like Pierce.

EDIT: One more thing, you are talking about one championship winning season. Over his career, Dirk as a WS/48 of 0.209, Garnett stands at 0.188.

Also, Garnett, though he had a higher WS season at 18.3, has only one other season of 16+ WS. Nowitzki has three of those. Nowitzki also has 11 seasons with 10+ WS, while Garnett had "only" 9.

[Trill Clinton]

I will not allow this bodybuilding.com slander!!! the site has a lot of valuable information and they have good prices on supplements.

[FkLA]

Everybody needs a team around them to win a championship. Even Jordan needed a Pippen and the right guys around him (shooting "PG"s who plays off ball, defensive centers to contain the likes of Ewing, shooting centers to open up the middle, strong rebounders, a coach to massage his ego), so I am not sure what you are trying to get at.

As for Varajao and Camby, we can disagree, but both are decent defensive players who can take care of the middle, especially sideshow bob.

Well considering the fact that MJ won 6 in a row when he wasnt playing baseball, Id say thats a terrible comparison. Even if Chandler stayed the likelihood of winning another title much less five more wouldve been pretty low. Especially since it didnt just require ridiculously efficient play Dirk and co. but also the King to choke.

Theyre both better than decent, theyre very good defensive players. I just think youre underselling just how elite Chandler is defensively though.

[Phillip]

Well considering the fact that MJ won 6 in a row when he wasnt playing baseball, Id say thats a terrible comparison. Even if Chandler stayed the likelihood of winning another title much less five more wouldve been pretty low. Especially since it didnt just require ridiculously efficient play Dirk and co. but also the King to choke.

Theyre both better than decent, theyre very good defensive players. I just think youre underselling just how elite Chandler is defensively though.

dirk rang, and nothing you do or say can take that away from him, as much as you try

:lmao faggot

[FkLA]

dirk rang, and nothing you do or say can take that away from him, as much as you try

:lmao faggot

He did tbh. Hes also a HOF and Top 5 PF all-time. Doesnt mean hes better than KG or the 2nd PFGOAT you dumb homer. :lol

[Phillip]

He did tbh. Hes also a HOF and Top 5 PF all-time. Doesnt mean hes better than KG or the 2nd PFGOAT you dumb homer. :lol

dirk = #1 man on a championship team

kg = 2a/2b man on a championship team

dirk > kg

fact

[Fergie The Florists]

Since when is all the way up to Dirk #2? :lol

Do Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, and Kevin Garnett not exist in this dimension or something?

Mavs suck though. I predicted they wouldn't make the playoffs before the season started. It was fairly obvious their team wasn't strong enough to get there, coupled with Dirk being injured early on which expectedly started them off in a hole.

They're not quite as bad as their record indicates, but they're not really much better anyway, and Dirk missing that time early hurt their positioning a lot.

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/judge_you_are_a_faggot.jpg

[FkLA]

dirk = #1 man on a championship team

kg = 2a/2b man on a championship team

dirk > kg

fact

According to homers like you tbh. Most people would disagree as I already proved. :hat

[Phillip]

According to homers like you tbh. Most people would disagree as I already proved. :hat

we have yet to see any legit proof of that

lol utsa flunkout

lol faggot

[FkLA]

lol 'legit'
lol unwilling to look at polls
lol unwilling to do a quick google search of your own
lol mad bc people dont rate dirk as high as homer mavfans
lol roddy take
lol stupid gook brothers

[Phillip]

lol 'legit'
lol unwilling to look at polls
lol unwilling to do a quick google search of your own
lol mad bc people dont rate dirk as high as homer mavfans
lol roddy take
lol stupid gook brothers


lol polls
lol putting stock in the same polls that frequently say wilt>mj
lol mad bc dirk is factually superior to kg
lol diaw take
lol flunkout

[FkLA]

lol making up shit
lol only accepting opinions that favor dirk
lol factually
lol diaw take not as bad as roddy take
lol kawhi leonard=shane battier
lol dirk was 2nd PFGOAT even before '11
lol stupid, homerish gook

[AaronY]

I go on bb.com mainly just for the misc section it provides the lulz
Troof bomb

[Riddler]

:lol Dirk better than KG simply because of scoring.

[Phillip]

lol making up shit
lol only accepting opinions that favor dirk
lol factually
lol diaw take not as bad as roddy take
lol kawhi leonard=shane battier
lol dirk was 2nd PFGOAT even before '11
lol stupid, homerish gook

lol truth bombs
lol only accepting opinions that dismiss dirk
lol unable to accept facts
lol diaw take worse than roddy take
lol kawhi leonard = scottie pippen
lol kg > dirk even before 11
lol stupid, homerish flunkout

[FkLA]

^dunning-kruger effect tbh

reminds me of benefactor

[Phillip]

^dunning-kruger effect tbh

reminds me of benefactor

dirk > kg

fact

[FkLA]

Youre too stupid to realize youre stupid tbh. Ill just stop wasting my time.

[Kidd K]

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/judge_you_are_a_faggot.jpg

http://memecrunch.com/meme/8LZ5/lol-u-mad/image.png

[ambchang]

Well considering the fact that MJ won 6 in a row when he wasnt playing baseball, Id say thats a terrible comparison. Even if Chandler stayed the likelihood of winning another title much less five more wouldve been pretty low. Especially since it didnt just require ridiculously efficient play Dirk and co. but also the King to choke.

Theyre both better than decent, theyre very good defensive players. I just think youre underselling just how elite Chandler is defensively though.

Not sure why it's a terrible comparison. Jordan's 6 title teams were all built very similarly. Pippen as the 2nd banana, Phil Jackson as coach, defensive/rebounding PF (Grant/Rodman), shooting centers (Longley, Wennington, Perdue), defensive bigs (Cartright/Perdue), shooting PG who do not handle the ball (Armstrong/Kerr/Paxson). The point is, every player requires a certain kind of team built around them (Duncan is very much the exception in the way he could win with a team like 99, 03, and then 05/07, three very different teams).

As for Chandler, he's great. Varajeo is just as great. Camby was not as great, but had as much mobility and defensive presence to cover Dirk's shortcomings on defense.

[ambchang]

To make my stance clear, I don't think Dirk is the #2 PF of all time, and I don't think he is definitively better than Garnett.

However, if I was to build a team, and I have a choice of Dirk and Garnett as my #1 franchise guy, and I cannot flip a coin to decide who to pick, I will pick Dirk, because I feel it is easier to build around Dirk than it is to build around Garnett.

I think the #2 PF of all time is Barkley ... I think ... perhaps.

The only clear ranking of PF is that Duncan is #1.

Dirk/Garnett/Barkley/McHale belongs to the next group.

[irishock]

To make my stance clear, I don't think Dirk is the #2 PF of all time, and I don't think he is definitively better than Garnett.

However, if I was to build a team, and I have a choice of Dirk and Garnett as my #1 franchise guy, and I cannot flip a coin to decide who to pick, I will pick Dirk, because I feel it is easier to build around Dirk than it is to build around Garnett.

I think the #2 PF of all time is Barkley ... I think ... perhaps.

The only clear ranking of PF is that Duncan is #1.

Dirk/Garnett/Barkley/McHale belongs to the next group.

But but but Lakers fans still claim Karl Malone to be the GOAT pf