Planned Parenthood: If the abortion didn't work and the baby comes out alive-kill it

[spursncowboys]

"If a baby is born on a table as a result of a botched abortion, what would Planned Parenthood want to have happen to that child that is struggling for life?” asked Florida representative Jim Boyd. "We believe that any decision that's made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician," replied Planned Parenthood lobbyist Alisa LaPolt Snow.


So the Fla govt. wants to make a law that if an abortion is botched, and the child comes out alive then the aborted baby has to be protected. I agree. No brainer. Until Planned Parenthood decided to fight it. It looks like this is part Planned Parenthood shouldn't have gotten into the fight. But also they have a pretty dumb spokesperson answering the questions.
BKCZMQ4QKwc#!

The quote above wasn't her only stupid remark. If you get past the pro-life facts and sappy music, there are some gems from her. For instance, not wanting to save an infant because it could be in a rural area and take an hour to get to a real hospital.

Planned Parenthood released this in response to their infanticide statements by their spokesperson.

http://www.ppaction.org/site/PageServer?pagename=fl_fappa_website_news&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweet&utm_content=FAPPA&utm_campaign=ppact

[boutons_deux]

It all depends on whether for fetus is viable, or not. "saved" extreme preemies sounds wonderful but they often aren't healthy throughout life due to incomplete gestation and incomplete growth of organs in utero.

[spursncowboys]

wow

[CosmicCowboy]

So the Fla govt. wants to make a law that if an abortion is botched, and the child comes out alive then the aborted baby has to be protected. I agree. No brainer. Until Planned Parenthood decided to fight it. It looks like this is part Planned Parenthood shouldn't have gotten into the fight. But also they have a pretty dumb spokesperson answering the questions.
BKCZMQ4QKwc#!

The quote above wasn't her only stupid remark. If you get past the pro-life facts and sappy music, there are some gems from her. For instance, not wanting to save an infant because it could be in a rural area and take an hour to get to a real hospital.

Planned Parenthood released this in response to their infanticide statements by their spokesperson.

http://jezebel.com/5993480/planned-parenthood-does-not-endorse-infanticide-and-we-cant-believe-that-even-needs-to-be-clarified

If the ignorant, stupid, disgusting fucking bitch waits that long to dispose of her unwanted child it's almost a mercy killing. The odds of a kid coming out of that fucked up situation as a solid citizen after they "save" it and give it back to the kunt is virtually zero. Too bad they can't legislate that the stupid kunt has to have her tubes tied at the same time.

[Stringer_Bell]

Other than the fact that she wasn't prepared for the types of questions she was going to be asked, I don't see what the outrage is about. Those dudes asked decent HYPOTHETICAL questions, but if they knew anything about abortions, when they typically occur during pregnancy, and what fetuses are actual capable of outside of the womb...they would've realized that the PR chick had no idea what she was talking about either. What all the anti-choice people should be freaked out about is how the men asking questions basically said "Well, if we let you have your little abortions, and if by some really small percentage a fetus survived, and it was breathing on its own outside of the womb, then we'd be cool with the abortion if you let us force the doctor to keep it alive even if it costs a shit ton of money - cuz most abortions take place so early in the pregnancy and premature neonatal care costs a shit ton of money." Yea, read that shit and tell me that's not what those suit wearing assholes meant with their questions.

And hey look, a Catholic hospital recently said fetuses aren't people and the Courts agreed. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/24/fetuses-not-people-catholic-hospital-says-in-court-case/1863013/

I wouldn't take anything that PR bitch said to heart, there is no policy in Planned Parenthood for a fetus struggling to live outside the womb. But now, I want them to make such a policy just to see what they'd say.

[CosmicCowboy]

viable lungs are essentially third trimester even with the amazing things they can do in neonatal intensive care.

[Stringer_Bell]

viable lungs are essentially third trimester even with the amazing things they can do in neonatal intensive care.


Oh, alrighty. Well, I wonder if anyone can let me know 1)when a fetus is considered to have viable lungs? and 2) how often third trimester abortions are performed (in the United States)? Just something to google when ya'll get the chance. ;)

[spursncowboys]

Oh, alrighty. Well, I wonder if anyone can let me know 1)when a fetus is considered to have viable lungs? and 2) how often third trimester abortions are performed (in the United States)? Just something to google when ya'll get the chance. ;)
I think that is the point of this legislation. It would barely ever occur. That is why Planned Parenthood shouldn't have fought it. That is why that pro-choice dem said he would support the bill.

[spursncowboys]

If the ignorant, stupid, disgusting fucking bitch waits that long to dispose of her unwanted child it's almost a mercy killing. The odds of a kid coming out of that fucked up situation as a solid citizen after they "save" it and give it back to the kunt is virtually zero. Too bad they can't legislate that the stupid kunt has to have her tubes tied at the same time.
The girl is a spokesperson for PP. I don't know if she is even a mother.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm not against abortion and in fact wish more of these substandard irresponsible kunts would choose that option.

[spursncowboys]

Oh, alrighty. Well, I wonder if anyone can let me know 1)when a fetus is considered to have viable lungs? and 2) how often third trimester abortions are performed (in the United States)? Just something to google when ya'll get the chance. ;)



Fetal development: The second trimesterFetal development takes on new meaning in the second trimester. Highlights might include finding out your baby's sex and feeling your baby move.By Mayo Clinic staff (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/AboutThisSite/AM00057)As your pregnancy progresses, your baby might begin to seem more real. You might hear the heartbeat at your prenatal appointments, and your enlarging abdomen might force you to put away your favorite jeans.
While you're adjusting to the changes in your body, fetal development takes on new meaning. Two months ago, your baby was simply a cluster of cells. Now he or she has functioning organs, nerves and muscles. Find out what happens during the second trimester by checking out this weekly calendar of events. Keep in mind that measurements are approximate.
Week 13: Urine formsThirteen weeks into your pregnancy, or 11 weeks after conception, your baby's intestines have returned to his or her abdomen from the umbilical cord — where they've been growing for the past couple of weeks. Your baby is also beginning to form urine and discharge it into the amniotic fluid.
Tissue that will become bone is also developing around your baby's head and within his or her arms and legs.
Week 14: Baby's sex becomes apparentFourteen weeks into your pregnancy, or 12 weeks after conception, your baby's arms have almost reached the final relative lengths they'll be at birth and your baby's neck has become more defined. Red blood cells are forming in your baby's spleen.
Your baby's sex will become apparent this week or in the coming weeks. For girls, ovarian follicles begin forming. For boys, the prostate appears.
By now your baby might be almost 3 1/2 inches (90 millimeters) long from crown to rump and weigh about 1 1/2 ounces (40 grams).
Week 15: Baby's skeleton develops bonesFifteen weeks into your pregnancy, or 13 weeks after conception, your baby is growing rapidly. Your baby's skeleton is developing bones, which will become visible on ultrasound images in a few weeks. Your baby's scalp hair pattern also is forming.
Week 16: Baby can make sucking motions

http://www.mayoclinic.com/images/image_popup/thumbs/mcdc7_fetal_development_week14thu.jpg (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM04071)
Fetal development 14 weeks after conception (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM04071)



Sixteen weeks into your pregnancy, or 14 weeks after conception, your baby's eyes have begun to face forward and slowly move. The ears are close to reaching their final position. Your baby might be able to make sucking motions with his or her mouth.
Your baby's movements are becoming coordinated and can be detected during ultrasound exams.
By now your baby might be more than 4 1/2 inches (120 millimeters) long from crown to rump.
Week 17: Fat accumulatesSeventeen weeks into your pregnancy, or 15 weeks after conception, fat stores begin to develop under your baby's skin. The fat will provide energy and help keep your baby warm after birth.
Week 18: Baby begins to hearEighteen weeks into your pregnancy, or 16 weeks after conception, your baby's ears begin to stand out on the sides of his or her head. Your baby might begin to hear.
By now your baby might be 5 1/2 inches (140 millimeters) long from crown to rump and weigh 7 ounces (200 grams).
Week 19: Baby's uterus formsNineteen weeks into your pregnancy, or 17 weeks after conception, a greasy, cheese-like coating called vernix caseosa begins to cover your baby. The vernix caseosa helps protect your baby's delicate skin from abrasions, chapping and hardening that can result from exposure to amniotic fluid.
For girls, the uterus and vagina might begin to form this week.

Week 20: The halfway pointHalfway into your pregnancy, or 18 weeks after conception, you might be able to feel your baby's first movements, also known as quickening. If you've been pregnant before, you might have begun feeling your baby's movements a few weeks ago.
By now your baby might be about 6 1/3 inches (160 millimeters) long from crown to rump.
Week 21: Baby can swallow

http://www.mayoclinic.com/images/image_popup/thumbs/mcdc7_fetal_development_week19thu.jpg (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM04070)
Fetal development 19 weeks after conception (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM04070)



Twenty-one weeks into your pregnancy, or 19 weeks after conception, your baby is poised to gain more weight. By this week your baby is becoming more active and is able to swallow.
Week 22: Baby's hair becomes visibleTwenty-two weeks into your pregnancy, or 20 weeks after conception, your baby is completely covered with a fine, down-like hair called lanugo. The lanugo helps hold the vernix caseosa on the skin. Your baby's eyebrows might be visible.
By now your baby might be 7 1/2 inches (190 millimeters) long from crown to rump and weigh 1 pound (460 grams).
Week 23: Fingerprints and footprints formTwenty-three weeks into your pregnancy, or 21 weeks after conception, your baby's skin is wrinkled, more translucent than before and pink to red in color.
This week your baby begins to have rapid eye movements. Your baby's tongue will soon develop taste buds. Fingerprints and footprints are forming. For boys, the testes are descending from the abdomen. For girls, the uterus and ovaries are in place — complete with a lifetime supply of eggs.
With intensive medical care, some babies born this week might be able to survive.
Week 24: Real hair growsTwenty-four weeks into your pregnancy, or 22 weeks after conception, your baby is regularly sleeping and waking. Real hair is growing on his or her head.
By now your baby might be about 8 inches (210 millimeters) long from crown to rump and weigh more than 1 1/3 pounds (630 grams).
Week 25: Baby responds to your voice

http://www.mayoclinic.com/images/image_popup/thumbs/mcdc7_fetal_development_week23thu.jpg (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM04072)
Fetal development 23 weeks after conception (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM04072)



Twenty-five weeks into your pregnancy, or 23 weeks after conception, your baby's hands and startle reflex are developing. Your baby might be able to respond to familiar sounds, such as your voice, with movement.
Week 26: Baby's fingernails developTwenty-six weeks into your pregnancy, or 24 weeks after conception, your baby has fingernails.
Your baby's lungs are beginning to produce surfactant, the substance that allows the air sacs in the lungs to inflate — and keeps them from collapsing and sticking together when they deflate.
By now your baby might be 9 inches (230 millimeters) long from crown to rump and weigh nearly 2 pounds (820 grams).
Week 27: Second trimester endsThis week marks the end of the second trimester. At 27 weeks, or 25 weeks after conception, your baby's lungs and nervous system are continuing to mature — and he or she has likely been growing like a weed. Your baby's crown-to-rump length might have tripled since the 12-week mark.

[Wild Cobra]

I think is real sad that do many people are so willing to snuff out, or approve of snuffing out innocent life.

[CosmicCowboy]

The girl is a spokesperson for PP. I don't know if she is even a mother.

LOL I know she is the unfortunate junior associate that drew the black bean to perform in front of that committee. Never said she was the babymama.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think is real sad that do many people are so willing to snuff out, or approve of snuffing out innocent life.

I think it is really sad when tens of thousands of irresponsible kunts bring babies into this world that they have no intention or means of giving that baby a fighting chance of becoming a mainstream citizen.

[Latarian Milton]

every decision should be left up to the husband or the physician, but never to the bitch herself imho. bitches are evils and if they don't want the babies (in most cases they don't, otherwise they would've never resorted to abortion in the first place) they wouldnt scruple to kill them babies like they kill chinks & fish in the kitchen. if you give every bitch the equal strength an average man has, while letting them keep their evil minds, the crime rate in this nation would rise by 200% tbh.

[Wild Cobra]

I think it is really sad when tens of thousands of irresponsible kunts bring babies into this world that they have no intention or means of giving that baby a fighting chance of becoming a mainstream citizen.
True. Abortion should never be used as birth control. If you recall, I advocate tube tying to prevent farther instances.

Let us not exclude the irresponsible fathers.

[boutons_deux]

I think is real sad that do many people are so willing to snuff out, or approve of snuffing out innocent life.

abortion isn't very popular, is traumatic, but if no abortion, what do we do with 1M unwanted babies/yerar?

the anti-abortion stance is dead simple in theory, but in practice, you pro-lifers NEVER have an answer for that.

and now the vagina-obsessed Repugs and "Christians" want to make contraception illegal.

[ElNono]

I think it's really sad when people try to impose their will on matters they have no business in, even more so when it's due to some religious bullshit.

[ElNono]

So the Fla govt. wants to make a law that if an abortion is botched, and the child comes out alive then the aborted baby has to be protected. I agree. No brainer.

What's the no-brainer? Mother doesn't want him, that's why she's aborting in the first place. The SCOTUS was pretty clear that up until X months, the decision is on the mother. The State trying to make decisions during that time is simply something they're not allowed to do.

[Wild Cobra]

What's the no-brainer? Mother doesn't want him, that's why she's aborting in the first place. The SCOTUS was pretty clear that up until X months, the decision is on the mother. The State trying to make decisions during that time is simply something they're not allowed to do.
Would you also advocate a mother leaving a 1 year old child in a dumpster to die if she decides she doesn't want the child?

[spursncowboys]

What's the no-brainer? Mother doesn't want him, that's why she's aborting in the first place. The SCOTUS was pretty clear that up until X months, the decision is on the mother. The State trying to make decisions during that time is simply something they're not allowed to do.
I guess you didn't understand that the baby came out of the womb, so is then a citizen and under protection. That's the no brainer. Unless you are for infanticide. Which still admits that the child is a living thing.

[ElNono]

Would you also advocate a mother leaving a 1 year old child in a dumpster to die if she decides she doesn't want the child?

AFAIK, that's a crime. And after 1 year, the State is legally allowed to decide what to do with that child.

You really suck at actually addressing the points discussed.

[spursncowboys]

:lmao this is a religious issue. :toast

[spursncowboys]

AFAIK, that's a crime. And after 1 year, the State is legally allowed to decide what to do with that child.

You really suck at actually addressing the points discussed.
It's a good point. At what point IYO is it a human being and protected under the laws of the land? most pro-choice people AFAIK believe in the womb it isn't. But even alive out of the womb, you still don't consider it a human?

[ElNono]

I guess you didn't understand that the baby came out of the womb, so is then a citizen and under protection. That's the no brainer. Unless you are for infanticide. Which still admits that the child is a living thing.

You keep missing that in Roe vs Wade:

The Court explicitly rejected a fetal "right to life" argument.

and

a fetus is not "a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment"

[ElNono]

It's a good point. At what point IYO is it a human being and protected under the laws of the land? most pro-choice people AFAIK believe in the womb it isn't. But even alive out of the womb, you still don't consider it a human?

The law of the land is Roe vs Wade, and up to the first trimester, the decision is up to the mother and her physician. As the SCOTUS said, a fetus is not 'a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment'.

[ElNono]

:lmao this is a religious issue. :toast

For a lot of pro-life people it absolutely is.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol @ El Nono spinning this. RVW put limits on it. First trimester fetus aren't even close to being viable. Third are.

[spursncowboys]

You keep missing that in Roe vs Wade:

The Court explicitly rejected a fetal "right to life" argument.

and

a fetus is not "a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment"

No you are missing the point that the term you are refering to is when the baby is in the womb. We are talking about babies born alive.


HB 1129


General Bill by Civil Justice Subcommittee and Health Quality Subcommittee and Pigman and Rodrigues, R. (CO-SPONSORS) Albritton; Baxley; Campbell; Combee; Cummings; Davis; Eagle; Fresen; Hutson; Mayfield; Metz; Porter; Raulerson; Renuart; Spano; Stone; Van Zant


Infants Born Alive: Provides that infant born alive during or immediately after attempted abortion is entitled to same rights, powers, & privileges as any other child born alive in course of natural birth; requires health care practitioners to preserve life & health of such infant born alive, if possible; provides for transport & admittance of infant to hospital; provides certain services for infant; requires health care practitioner or employees who have knowledge of any violations with respect to infants born alive after attempted abortion to report those violations to DOH; provides penalty; provides for construction; revises reporting requirements.


Effective Date: July 1, 2013




http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=50434

[spursncowboys]

From the hearing:

“As of 2010, 1,270 infants were reported in that category — and I emphasize reported,” Rep. Pigman explained.
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/05/1270-babies-born-alive-after-failed-abortions-in-the-united-states/

[Th'Pusher]

Last week, a panel of Florida state legislators demanded speculation about a vague set of extremely unlikely and highly unusual medical circumstances. Medical guidelines and ethics already compel physicians facing life-threatening circumstances to respond, and Planned Parenthood physicians provide high-quality medical care and adhere to the most rigorous professional standards, including providing emergency care. In the extremely unlikely event that the scenario presented by the panel of legislators should happen, of course Planned Parenthood would provide appropriate care to both the woman and the infant.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/planned-parenthood-responds-to-infanticide-charge-from-priebus

[Wild Cobra]

AFAIK, that's a crime. And after 1 year, the State is legally allowed to decide what to do with that child.

You really suck at actually addressing the points discussed.
The key distinction is live birth. That used to be the past qualifier, but it seems doctors and hospitals are now allowed to let them starve to death. Put them in a room, and let them die crying. It appears by the OP, that some are allowed to execute the child.

[Wild Cobra]

For a lot of pro-life people it absolutely is.
I'm not religious in any sense that you think of, yet I am appalled at the disregard people like you have for innocent life.

I'll bet you also disapprove of the death penalty for guilty non-innocent life.

Why do liberals have this hypocrisy?

[spursncowboys]

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/planned-parenthood-responds-to-infanticide-charge-from-priebus
Right. Which is why I stated that the spokesperson is an idiot and pp shouldn't have picked the fight...

[Latarian Milton]

What's the no-brainer? Mother doesn't want him, that's why she's aborting in the first place. The SCOTUS was pretty clear that up until X months, the decision is on the mother. The State trying to make decisions during that time is simply something they're not allowed to do.
decision should never be made in the hands of a bitch imho, because the bitch could NEVER conceive the fetus by herself. bitches are like banks, you store your money there but the banks have no right to deal with your money imho. the unborn baby's father owns the total right to the fetus. only the dad (or the local government if baby's dad is unknown) has the right to decide if the pregnancy should be aborted under certain conditions, like when the bitch's life is threatened due to her pregnancy or when the pregnancy was the result of a rape or whatsoever, but such decisions should NEVER be made by bitches themselves tbh.

[ElNono]

:lol @ El Nono spinning this. RVW put limits on it. First trimester fetus aren't even close to being viable. Third are.

I don't have a problem with the State regulating after the third trimester, as stipulated in Roe...

The only spinning I see here is pro-lifers trying to sneak the State into the first trimester by trying to draw some illusory line between inside vs outside the womb. Roe made clear there's no such line.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't have a problem with the State regulating after the third trimester
LOL...

You mean the fourth trimester?

[ElNono]

No you are missing the point that the term you are refering to is when the baby is in the womb. We are talking about babies born alive.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=50434

Again, I'm not missing anything. What determines 'born alive'? Is a fetus in the 1st trimester a 'born alive infant'? To some pro-lifers it is.

It's easy how you construct the slippery slope from that.

[ElNono]

LOL...

You mean the fourth trimester?

Do you know what 'after' means? What's LOL about it?

[Wild Cobra]

Again, I'm not missing anything. What determines 'born alive'? Is a fetus in the 1st trimester a 'born alive infant'? To some pro-lifers it is.

It's easy how you construct the slippery slope from that.
When a fetus is born during the first trimester, it's called a miscarriage.

[ElNono]

The key distinction is live birth. That used to be the past qualifier, but it seems doctors and hospitals are now allowed to let them starve to death. Put them in a room, and let them die crying. It appears by the OP, that some are allowed to execute the child.

You don't know what you're talking about and you should stop now.

[ElNono]

When a fetus is born during the first trimester, it's called a miscarriage.

This is during an abortion procedure... smh

[Wild Cobra]

This is during an abortion procedure... smh
Well, there are induced and spontaneous abortions. The spontaneous abortion is a miscarriage. I don't think anyone called inducing an abortion a miscarriage.

[ElNono]

It really isn't that complicated. If this regulates births after the 1st trimester, it should state so, and there would be nothing controversial about it.

The State can already regulate that.

But you have laws passing right now that if a ultrasound heartbeat (which apparently can be heard a couple of weeks after conception) is detected, then you can't abort.

I though Roe set a fairly decent balance between the decision of the mother and the interests of the State. But some people with no business in this matter keep pushing and pushing...

[Wild Cobra]

Do you know what 'after' means? What's LOL about it?
So you agree the proposed Florida law then is OK then?

[ElNono]

Well, there are induced and spontaneous abortions. The spontaneous abortion is a miscarriage. I don't think anyone called inducing an abortion a miscarriage.

What are you talking about? Are you even following the discussion at hand?

Doctors can transfer fertilized eggs right in this day and age without damaging them. It's not out of the realm of possibilities that one day not in the not too distant future they can remove a fetus within the 1st trimester without damaging it.

[ElNono]

So you agree the proposed Florida law then is OK then?

The Florida law makes no distinction of 1st trimester vs any time afterwards. If it would, I would be ok with it.

[Wild Cobra]

The Florida law makes no distinction of 1st trimester vs any time afterwards. If it would, I would be ok with it.
You are soulless, aren't you...

[ElNono]

You are soulless, aren't you...

This isn't about me. Try to stay on topic for once.

[Wild Cobra]

This isn't about me. Try to stay on topic for once.
LOL...

If it's a viable birth, it becomes murder that you are advocating.

[ElNono]

LOL...

If it's a viable birth, it becomes murder that you are advocating.

As already stated, a fetus does not have the protection of personhood... so, no.

[spursncowboys]

Again, I'm not missing anything. What determines 'born alive'? Is a fetus in the 1st trimester a 'born alive infant'? To some pro-lifers it is.

It's easy how you construct the slippery slope from that.
There's no slippery slope to this. Just admit you're wrong and you are not for murdering infants.

[spursncowboys]

As already stated, a fetus does not have the protection of personhood... so, no.
At what point is it not a fetus? Are all premies fetus's?

[ElNono]

There's no slippery slope to this. Just admit you're wrong and you are not for murdering infants.

I made my position clear. I stand by it. I think Roe makes it pretty clear who's allowed to makes decisions and when, and I agree with it.


At what point is it not a fetus? Are all premies fetus's?

Much like when does life 'begins', there's no scientific answer to that. We can exchange opinions for 20 posts and not only it doesn't matter, it won't answer the question either.

That's what the SCOTUS faced back in Roe vs Wade. And the reality is that a fairly balanced compromise was reached. It gives 1/3 of the pregnancy decision-making solely to the mother and doctor, and 2/3 to the State.

I think it's a reasonable compromise. I think the mother should have that decision-making power for some time after pregnancy is detected.

[Jacob1983]

What's the logic behind this? If a baby survives an abortion and is alive outside of the womb, and someone kills it, how is that not murder? I want some abortion lovers to explain that to me. Step up and explain it to me.

[Winehole23]

What's the logic behind this? If a baby survives an abortion and is alive outside of the womb, and someone kills it, how is that not murder?hence new law in FLA apparently addressing that. legal personhood is not just whatever it means for purposes of morality, it is a definable legal custom that varies from state to state.

change the custom, and you change the moral calculus. short of outlawing abortion the state can make it very inconvenient for providers.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I don't think anyone called inducing an abortion a miscarriage.

Rick Santorum and his wife did.

[CuckingFunt]

I think it is really sad when tens of thousands of irresponsible kunts bring babies into this world that they have no intention or means of giving that baby a fighting chance of becoming a mainstream citizen.

Not all of the women who have an abortion have been irresponsible. And not all of the people who have made the irresponsible decisions that can lead to unwanted/unexpected pregnancy are woman.

Vitriolic rambling about "tens of thousands of irresponsible cunts" does nothing to help your argument.

[boutons_deux]

"I think it is really sad when tens of thousands of irresponsible kunts"

typical right winger, blaming exclusively the vaginas, not the penises.

[JoeTait75]

That's what the SCOTUS faced back in Roe vs Wade. And the reality is that a fairly balanced compromise was reached. It gives 1/3 of the pregnancy decision-making solely to the mother and doctor, and 2/3 to the State.

When the father has no say and is automatically on the hook for 18 years of mandatory "child support" (which is really a wealth transfer to the mother) if she decided to keep the baby, that isn't "fairly balanced" at all. Just saying.

[ElNono]

When the father has no say and is automatically on the hook for 18 years of mandatory "child support" (which is really a wealth transfer to the mother) if she decided to keep the baby, that isn't "fairly balanced" at all. Just saying.

I don't think economics had anything to do with Roe vs Wade's decision. It's all about the mother's safety. The fact that health-wise it's less risky to abort in the first trimester than actually give birth was a major driver on the decision. The father economic concerns don't enter that picture.

[Jacob1983]

I know that women hate hearing this shit but abortion is sexist. It clearly favors the woman and fucks the guy over big time. And don't give me this shit of "every guy will leave his baby momma or that every guy wants his woman to abort". Where is the outrage on this? I thought there was suppose to be gender equality. It takes a man and a woman to make a baby.

[boutons_deux]

poor little men, always powerless, always there with lifetime $$$ commitment to their spawn.

[Wild Cobra]

poor little men, always powerless, always there with lifetime $$$ commitment to their spawn.
Is it equal rights when the woman has a choice, and the man doesn't?

[Jacob1983]

Pro-choice should be women's choice since the man has no choice or say in the matter.

[Wild Cobra]

Pro-choice should be women's choice since the man has no choice or say in the matter.
Typical hypocrisy.

[ElNono]

What health issues does the man faces during the woman's pregnancy, doctors?

[Wild Cobra]

What health issues does the man faces during the woman's pregnancy, doctors?
I'll bet health concerns of the woman are less than 1% of abortions. Women more often have an abortion for financial reasons. The sperm donor has no say in such matters, but is legally responsible.

[ElNono]

I'll bet health concerns of the woman are less than 1% of abortions. Women more often have an abortion for financial reasons. The sperm donor has no say in such matters, but is legally responsible.

You're conflating two different things:

A) Why do women do it

vs

B) Why women get to decide at all (regardless of what the decision is or what's the motive)

This thread is discussing B. You're bitching about A.

[RandomGuy]

So the Fla govt. wants to make a law that if an abortion is botched, and the child comes out alive then the aborted baby has to be protected. I agree. No brainer. Until Planned Parenthood decided to fight it. It looks like this is part Planned Parenthood shouldn't have gotten into the fight. But also they have a pretty dumb spokesperson answering the questions.
BKCZMQ4QKwc#!

The quote above wasn't her only stupid remark. If you get past the pro-life facts and sappy music, there are some gems from her. For instance, not wanting to save an infant because it could be in a rural area and take an hour to get to a real hospital.

Planned Parenthood released this in response to their infanticide statements by their spokesperson.

http://www.ppaction.org/site/PageServer?pagename=fl_fappa_website_news&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweet&utm_content=FAPPA&utm_campaign=ppact

Do you have a transcript for that hearing?

Listened to it and it was quite clear that it was edited in places.

Abortion foes' tend to lie a lot in their propaganda, so I would not care to take this for anything other than pablum for the converted without it.

I would further point out that no few peoples defintion of "baby" is any fertilized egg. Kind of blurs the issue when one person tries to talk about "breathing" babies, when babies can't actually breathe until after 25 weeks or so.
http://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/your-baby/week-25/fresh-air.aspx

For someone whose party claps at the thought of poor people without health insurance dying because they can't pay, you seem awfully eager to have $1,000,000 "babies" kept alive.

That is about how much the average premature infant costs the health care system, just in the first year or so, to my expert understanding.

[RandomGuy]

I'll bet health concerns of the woman are less than 1% of abortions. Women more often have an abortion for financial reasons. The sperm donor has no say in such matters, but is legally responsible.

I bet you are too lazy to actually find the real percentage.

[Spurminator]

I'll bet health concerns of the woman are less than 1% of abortions. Women more often have an abortion for financial reasons. The sperm donor has no say in such matters, but is legally responsible.

Sounds like your issue is with the child support structure then. That's probably a better route to go with your argument, vs. the idea that the man should have equal say in determining whether or not a woman has to endure 40 weeks of pregnancy.

[scott]

Insofar as babies who are born are people... and killing people is a crime... it seems like this is an altogether unnecessary piece of legislation designed to rile folks up over nothing. Looks like it worked.

[scott]

Or maybe there is a rampant baby-slaughtering issue in Florida... in which case... fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

[Wild Cobra]

I bet you are too lazy to actually find the real percentage.
On this topic, yes. I have no desire to find the real number, but with modern medicine like it is...

[spursncowboys]

I don't think economics had anything to do with Roe vs Wade's decision. It's all about the mother's safety. The fact that health-wise it's less risky to abort in the first trimester than actually give birth was a major driver on the decision. The father economic concerns don't enter that picture.
I thought roe v wade was a privacy thing

[RandomGuy]

On this topic, yes. I have no desire to find the real number, but with modern medicine like it is...

So you prefer innuendo over facts. Thanks for making that clear. :p:


Carry on.

[RandomGuy]

Insofar as babies who are born are people... and killing people is a crime... it seems like this is an altogether unnecessary piece of legislation designed to rile folks up over nothing. Looks like it worked.

If one assumes the video in the OP is accurate. As I noted before, I view that as highly unlikely.

Good job on the beer legislation, btw.

[Wild Cobra]

So you prefer innuendo over facts. Thanks for making that clear. :p:


Carry on.
Call it what you want, but i don't think 1% is unreasonable. Do you?

[RandomGuy]

Call it what you want, but i don't think 1% is unreasonable. Do you?

I do not have enough data or expertise on the matter to decide what is reasonable and what is not.

[RandomGuy]

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 1%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons.

2%

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Close enough. Took me less than a minute.

See how easy that is?

[Wild Cobra]

in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 1%
1.1% is closer to what I was referring to, by your link.

[Blake]

Would you also advocate a mother leaving a 1 year old child in a dumpster to die if she decides she doesn't want the child?

Fwiw, many cities/states have 'baby Moses'

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Baby-Moses-Law-works-baby-dropped-off-unharmed-4356289.php

Of course, putting a one year old in a dumpster is instant felony, many years in jail.

[CuckingFunt]

1.1% is closer to what I was referring to, by your link.

Interesting that you've eliminated rape and incest from your definition of "health concerns."

[spursncowboys]

What health issues does the man faces during the woman's pregnancy, doctors?
Are you saying abortion should only be when a woman's health is in question?

[ElNono]

I thought roe v wade was a privacy thing

the Court ruled 7–2 that a right to privacy under the due process clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting prenatal life and protecting women's health.

bolded for emphasis


Are you saying abortion should only be when a woman's health is in question?

Following its earlier logic, the Court stated that during the first trimester, when the procedure is more safe than childbirth, the decision to abort must be left to the mother and her physician. The State has the right to intervene prior to fetal viability only to protect the health of the mother, and may regulate the procedure after viability so long as there is always an exception for preserving maternal health.

The ruling in Roe vs Wade wasn't capricious or arbitrary. The Court recognized two competing interests, and attempted to craft a careful balance. That balanced decision itself didn't necessarily come out of thin air. The specific cutoff of the first trimester comes from balancing the risks on the health of the mother aborting vs the health of the mother giving birth.

[Jacob1983]

If you are against abortion, you hate women and should be shunned by society.

[Wild Cobra]

Interesting that you've eliminated rape and incest from your definition of "health concerns."
Yes, so?

Is there some reason I am unfamiliar with, that a fetus, that is the result of rape, is automatically harmful to a woman?

My claim was health, and I am on record as being OK with such thinks like "the morning after" pill.

I think most would agree that even though the earlier figure linked comes to 1.1%, that part of that health statistic is mental health. I was speaking of physical health, which if the case, would still drop this down to less than 1%. Keep in kind, there are plenty of people out there who want to adopt infants. Why not try to push that direction, especially in the name of morality.

Also, keep in mind, my 1% was an educated guess, and that my statement started with "I'll bet." I do not stand firm by it, but with the link RG provided, I think I can say I was right.

[CuckingFunt]

Yes, so?

Is there some reason I am unfamiliar with, that a fetus, that is the result of rape, is automatically harmful to a woman?

My claim was health, and I am on record as being OK with such thinks like "the morning after" pill.

I think most would agree that even though the earlier figure linked comes to 1.1%, that part of that health statistic is mental health. I was speaking of physical health, which if the case, would still drop this down to less than 1%. Keep in kind, there are plenty of people out there who want to adopt infants. Why not try to push that direction, especially in the name of morality.

Also, keep in mind, my 1% was an educated guess, and that my statement started with "I'll bet." I do not stand firm by it, but with the link RG provided, I think I can say I was right.

You didn't say physical health, though. You said health. That you consider mental health to be wholly removed from your general definition of health is interesting. It's not bad, or even necessarily wrong, but it's telling.

Incidentally, I don't really give a fuck whether or not your guess of 1% was accurate, so trying to prove otherwise isn't my goal.

[Wild Cobra]

You didn't say physical health, though. You said health. That you consider mental health to be wholly removed from your general definition of health is interesting. It's not bad, or even necessarily wrong, but it's telling.

Incidentally, I don't really give a fuck whether or not your guess of 1% was accurate, so trying to prove otherwise isn't my goal.
This is true, and I am clarifying.

You probably agree that many women have mental changes that are natural and occur with the hormone changes.

The 1% doesn't matter much, I'll even go with the 2%. My point was that there are very few that fit such a catagory.

[TeyshaBlue]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/Odcl6Of_zps7e787d79.gif

[spursncowboys]

You're conflating two different things:

A) Why do women do it

vs

B) Why women get to decide at all (regardless of what the decision is or what's the motive)

This thread is discussing B. You're bitching about A.
This thread was about infanticide in which you are for might i add

[ElNono]

This thread was about infanticide in which you are for might i add

There's no such thing as 'infanticide' within the first trimester... again we go back to Roe vs Wade:

The Court additionally added that the primary right being preserved in the Roe decision was that of the physician's right to practice medicine freely absent a compelling state interest – not women's rights in general. The Court explicitly rejected a fetal "right to life" argument.

[CuckingFunt]

This is true, and I am clarifying.

You probably agree that many women have mental changes that are natural and occur with the hormone changes.

The 1% doesn't matter much, I'll even go with the 2%. My point was that there are very few that fit such a catagory.

You seem to think I'm arguing with you, but I'm not. I don't agree with you, but I'm not arguing. I already know that arguing abortion with you is pointless. Whether or not your guess of only 1% of abortions being due to health issues was an accurate one is of little consequence to me, since I always have and always will advocate for a woman's right to choose regardless of the reasons for that choice.

For the third time, I merely expressed that it's interesting, and quite telling, that you took the time to specify that you did not consider rape and incest to be health issues. It says a lot about not only your personal views, but also about the views that seem to be so prevalent within this argument. Seldom do those who oppose abortion consider the potentially devastating effects having to carry a child of rape or incest to term could have on a woman's mental health. Nor is there much consideration for the numerous ways in which such mental health issues can manifest that are physically damaging to the mother and/or her child, be it in the short or long term.

[spursncowboys]

There's no such thing as 'infanticide' within the first trimester... again we go back to Roe vs Wade:

The Court additionally added that the primary right being preserved in the Roe decision was that of the physician's right to practice medicine freely absent a compelling state interest – not women's rights in general. The Court explicitly rejected a fetal "right to life" argument.
1. 24 wks is not the first trimester.
2. if a baby comes out of the womb alive, then what? It's not a baby because it was decided to be aborted?

[ElNono]

1. 24 wks is not the first trimester.

I must've missed where the law you posted stated it only applies to 24wks or later. (or specifically 12 weeks or later).. Already stated I don't have a problem with the State regulating after the 1st trimester if plainly stated in the law.


2. if a baby comes out of the womb alive, then what? It's not a baby because it was decided to be aborted?

As stated, there's no scientific way to determine when a fetus stops being a fetus and becomes a baby. But it doesn't matter. Up to the first trimester, the decision on what to do with whatever it is, is between the mother and physician, and whatever it is, has no "right to life" during that time. I'm ok with that, and whatever legislation that wants to attribute powers to the State in that regard need to address the fact that they cannot get involved in the first trimester.

After the 1st trimester, the State can choose to do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

[mouse]

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/08/gosnell-worker-baby-screamed-during-live-birth-abortion/


Baby Screamed During Live-Birth “Abortion”

by Steven Ertelt | Philadelphia, PA | LifeNews.com | 4/8/13 3:55 PM


Today’s testimony during the murder trial of abortion practitioner Kermit Gosnell was no less shocking than previous days. Today, a former employee described how she heard a baby scream during a live-birth abortion.

Abortion clinic employee Sherry West described an incident which “really freaked (her) out” and related to the jury how she heard a child scream who was born alive following an abortion.

West remembered how she referred to the dead children killed in these gruesome abortion procedures as “specimens” so she could avoid the mental trauma associated with knowing how they died. As local media reported:

Sherry West, of Bear, said she was loyal to Gosnell – who is now facing multiple counts of murder for allegedly killing children after they were delivered alive at his clinic – but said the incident “really freaked me out.”

When Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore pressed the 53-year-old West for specifics about the incident, West struggled to answer, clearly uncomfortable with the memory.

“I can’t describe it. It sounded like a little alien,” West testified, telling a judge and Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas jury that the body of the child was about 18 to 24 inches long and was one of the largest babies she had seen delivered during abortion procedures at Gosnell’s clinic.

West said she saw the child, whose face and features were not yet completely formed, lying on a glass tray on a shelf and she told a co-worker to call Gosnell about it and fled the room.

During her two years working for Gosnell, West said she also saw patients deliver “specimens” in the toilet, which she made a co-worker remove, adding she called aborted fetuses “specimens” because “it was easier to deal with mentally.”

She also testified that she saw many women come in who looked like they were too far along in their pregnancies to have abortions.

West started working for Gosnell in late 2008, after being his patient for more than 20 years. West said she had previously worked at the Veterans Administration, doing preparation work in the operating room, but left in 2007 after suffering a nervous breakdown and being diagnosed with Hepatitis C that she contracted in the hospital.

West said she was desperate for money in 2008 because she was fighting with the VA over disability benefits and Gosnell agreed to hire her and pay her under the table. She said Gosnell, as her primary care doctor, was well aware that she had a nervous breakdown, was on the anti-anxiety drug Prozac and had Hepatitis C diagnosis.
Gosnell, whose squalid “house of horrors” abortion clinic has surprised even investigative officials, has had almost flippant attitude toward his macabre abortion practices shocked the nation.

“The Gosnell case is a watershed moment for the issue of abortion,” said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation. “The discovery of his horrific practices helped shed light on an abortion industry that has run amok without oversight or accountability for decades, and has prompted significant changes in abortion laws and attitudes toward enforcement in several states.”

In all, Gosnell faces 43 criminal counts, including eight counts of murder in the death of one patient, Karnamaya Monger, and seven newborn infants. Additional charges include conspiracy, drug delivery resulting in death, infanticide, corruption of minors, evidence tampering, theft by deception, abuse of corpse, and corruption.

Gosnell could face the death penalty if convicted and he faces a mandatory minimum 20 years. A pool of 125 was narrowed down to 43 potential jurors this afternoon and the death penalty played a role.

The first day of jury selection began with a panel of about 125 people, but most were quickly excused for a variety of factors, including opposition to the death penalty in this potential capital case, personal hardship caused by serving in a trial expected to last 6 to 8 weeks, and having a fixed opinion on the case. At the end of the first day, three female jurors had been selected. The three jurors chosen Monday told Common Pleas Judge Jeffrey Minehart they supported abortion.

Previously, Gosnell’s wife Pearl pleaded guilty to assisting her husband at his Philadelphia abortion center where he killed a woman in a botched abortion and has killed hundreds of babies in abortion-infanticides.

Pearl Gosnell was considering a plea deal similar to the one several of Gosnell’s former abortion center employees have made where they have pleaded guilty to receive a lesser sentence in exchange for testifying against Gosnell. Pearl also worked at the abortion center GGosnell Worker: Baby Screamed During Live-Birth “Abortion”
by Steven Ertelt | Philadelphia, PA | LifeNews.com | 4/8/13 3:55 PM


Today’s testimony during the murder trial of abortion practitioner Kermit Gosnell was no less shocking than previous days. Today, a former employee described how she heard a baby scream during a live-birth abortion.

Abortion clinic employee Sherry West described an incident which “really freaked (her) out” and related to the jury how she heard a child scream who was born alive following an abortion.

West remembered how she referred to the dead children killed in these gruesome abortion procedures as “specimens” so she could avoid the mental trauma associated with knowing how they died. As local media reported:

Sherry West, of Bear, said she was loyal to Gosnell – who is now facing multiple counts of murder for allegedly killing children after they were delivered alive at his clinic – but said the incident “really freaked me out.”

When Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore pressed the 53-year-old West for specifics about the incident, West struggled to answer, clearly uncomfortable with the memory.

“I can’t describe it. It sounded like a little alien,” West testified, telling a judge and Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas jury that the body of the child was about 18 to 24 inches long and was one of the largest babies she had seen delivered during abortion procedures at Gosnell’s clinic.

West said she saw the child, whose face and features were not yet completely formed, lying on a glass tray on a shelf and she told a co-worker to call Gosnell about it and fled the room.

During her two years working for Gosnell, West said she also saw patients deliver “specimens” in the toilet, which she made a co-worker remove, adding she called aborted fetuses “specimens” because “it was easier to deal with mentally.”

She also testified that she saw many women come in who looked like they were too far along in their pregnancies to have abortions.

West started working for Gosnell in late 2008, after being his patient for more than 20 years. West said she had previously worked at the Veterans Administration, doing preparation work in the operating room, but left in 2007 after suffering a nervous breakdown and being diagnosed with Hepatitis C that she contracted in the hospital.

West said she was desperate for money in 2008 because she was fighting with the VA over disability benefits and Gosnell agreed to hire her and pay her under the table. She said Gosnell, as her primary care doctor, was well aware that she had a nervous breakdown, was on the anti-anxiety drug Prozac and had Hepatitis C diagnosis, whose squalid “house of horrors” abortion clinic has surprised even investigative officials, has had almost flippant attitude toward his macabre abortion practices shocked the nation.

“The Gosnell case is a watershed moment for the issue of abortion,” said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-Life Nation. “The discovery of his horrific practices helped shed light on an abortion industry that has run amok without oversight or accountability for decades, and has prompted significant changes in abortion laws and attitudes toward enforcement in several states.”

In all, Gosnell faces 43 criminal counts, including eight counts of murder in the death of one patient, Karnamaya Monger, and seven newborn infants. Additional charges include conspiracy, drug delivery resulting in death, infanticide, corruption of minors, evidence tampering, theft by deception, abuse of corpse, and corruption.

Gosnell could face the death penalty if convicted and he faces a mandatory minimum 20 years. A pool of 125 was narrowed down to 43 potential jurors this afternoon and the death penalty played a role.

The first day of jury selection began with a panel of about 125 people, but most were quickly excused for a variety of factors, including opposition to the death penalty in this potential capital case, personal hardship caused by serving in a trial expected to last 6 to 8 weeks, and having a fixed opinion on the case. At the end of the first day, three female jurors had been selected. The three jurors chosen Monday told Common Pleas Judge Jeffrey Minehart they supported abortion.

Previously, Gosnell’s wife Pearl pleaded guilty to assisting her husband at his Philadelphia abortion center where he killed a woman in a botched abortion and has killed hundreds of babies in abortion-infanticides.

Pearl Gosnell was considering a plea deal similar to the one several of Gosnell’s former abortion center employees have made where they have pleaded guilty to receive a lesser sentence in exchange for testifying against Gosnell. Pearl also worked at the abortion center Gosnell ran that had him kill and injure women in failed abortions and kill perhaps hundreds of babies in grisly infanticides by birthing them and “snipping” their spinal cords.

She worked at the Women’s Medical Society abortion business her husband ran as a full-time medical assistant from 1982 until she married Kermit Gosnell in 1990, when she switched to only working on Sundays. At that time, the abortion business was officially closed but would do its latest-term abortions possible.

The grand jury report indicates Pearl Gosnell testified that she alone helped Kermit do abortions on Sundays when she would “help do the instruments” in the operating room despite no medical training.

Previously, Judge Lerner ruled two other former employees, Eileen O’Neill and Madeline Joe, are not allowed to have their cases separated from that of Dr. Kermit Gosnell. Neither O’Neill nor Joe are charged with killing babies in infanticides and, although their attorneys argued the horrifying allegations against Gosnell could unfairly taint their cases, they were not allowed to plead guilty in deals as was the case with six other former employees.

The murder charges also came in connection with the botched abortion death of 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar, who died at Gosnell’s abortion clinic after a failed abortion. Mongar died November 20, 2009, after overdosing on anesthetics prescribed by the doctor. Mongar’s family filed a lawsuit against Gosnell’s abortion business seeking damages.

Gosnell and several staffers at his abortion center, including Pearl, were arrested in January after a grand jury indicted them on multiple charges after officials raided his abortion business following a woman’s death and discovered a “shop of horrors” filled with bags of bodies and body parts of deceased unborn children and babies killed in infanticides. Pearl Gosnell, Kermit’s 49-year-old wife who has no medical license, faces a charge of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks and conspiracy and other charges.

Gosnell has been denied bail while the case against him moves forward. Women have spoken out about their treatment and one woman says she was drugged and tied up and forced to have an abortion.

Authorities searching the facility last year found bags and bottles holding aborted babies scattered around the building, jars containing babies’ severed feet lining a shelf, as well as filthy, unsanitary furniture and equipment.

The grand jury investigation also shows state officials did nothing when reports came in about problems at Gosnell’s abortion center, which has upset incoming pro-life Governor Tom Corbett.

Gosnell’s abortion center was inspected only after a federal drug raid in 2010. It was the first time the facility had been inspected in 17 years because state officials ignored complaints and failed to visit Gosnell’s Women’s Medical Society for years.

The abortion industry has been forced to suspend two abortion businesses that employed embattled abortion practitioner Kermit Gosnell, who has been the subject of national controversy over his abortion business in Philadelphia.

Following revelations that Gosnell is associated with two other abortion centers in Louisiana and Delaware, the National Abortion Federation made the decision to suspend the memberships of both. Atlantic Women’s Medical Services, the Delaware abortion business that employed Gosnell one day a week to do abortions, and the Delta Clinic abortion center of Baton Rouge, have both had their memberships suspended. Leroy Brinkley owns both abortion businesses. Atlantic operates abortion centers in Wilmington and Dover.

Gosnell ran that had him kill and injure women in failed abortions and kill perhaps hundreds of babies in grisly infanticides by birthing them and “snipping” their spinal cords.

She worked at the Women’s Medical Society abortion business her husband ran as a full-time medical assistant from 1982 until she married Kermit Gosnell in 1990, when she switched to only working on Sundays. At that time, the abortion business was officially closed but would do its latest-term abortions possible.

The grand jury report indicates Pearl Gosnell testified that she alone helped Kermit do abortions on Sundays when she would “help do the instruments” in the operating room despite no medical training.

[mouse]

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/08/gosnell-worker-baby-screamed-during-live-birth-abortion/




Previously, Judge Lerner ruled two other former employees, Eileen O’Neill and Madeline Joe, are not allowed to have their cases separated from that of Dr. Kermit Gosnell. Neither O’Neill nor Joe are charged with killing babies in infanticides and, although their attorneys argued the horrifying allegations against Gosnell could unfairly taint their cases, they were not allowed to plead guilty in deals as was the case with six other former employees.

The murder charges also came in connection with the botched abortion death of 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar, who died at Gosnell’s abortion clinic after a failed abortion. Mongar died November 20, 2009, after overdosing on anesthetics prescribed by the doctor. Mongar’s family filed a lawsuit against Gosnell’s abortion business seeking damages.

Gosnell and several staffers at his abortion center, including Pearl, were arrested in January after a grand jury indicted them on multiple charges after officials raided his abortion business following a woman’s death and discovered a “shop of horrors” filled with bags of bodies and body parts of deceased unborn children and babies killed in infanticides. Pearl Gosnell, Kermit’s 49-year-old wife who has no medical license, faces a charge of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks and conspiracy and other charges.

Gosnell has been denied bail while the case against him moves forward. Women have spoken out about their treatment and one woman says she was drugged and tied up and forced to have an abortion.

Authorities searching the facility last year found bags and bottles holding aborted babies scattered around the building, jars containing babies’ severed feet lining a shelf, as well as filthy, unsanitary furniture and equipment.

The grand jury investigation also shows state officials did nothing when reports came in about problems at Gosnell’s abortion center, which has upset incoming pro-life Governor Tom Corbett.

Gosnell’s abortion center was inspected only after a federal drug raid in 2010. It was the first time the facility had been inspected in 17 years because state officials ignored complaints and failed to visit Gosnell’s Women’s Medical Society for years.

The abortion industry has been forced to suspend two abortion businesses that employed embattled abortion practitioner Kermit Gosnell, who has been the subject of national controversy over his abortion business in Philadelphia.

Following revelations that Gosnell is associated with two other abortion centers in Louisiana and Delaware, the National Abortion Federation made the decision to suspend the memberships of both. Atlantic Women’s Medical Services, the Delaware abortion business that employed Gosnell one day a week to do abortions, and the Delta Clinic abortion center of Baton Rouge, have both had their memberships suspended. Leroy Brinkley owns both abortion businesses. Atlantic operates abortion centers in Wilmington and Dover.

Gosnell ran that had him kill and injure women in failed abortions and kill perhaps hundreds of babies in grisly infanticides by birthing them and “snipping” their spinal cords.

She worked at the Women’s Medical Society abortion business her husband ran as a full-time medical assistant from 1982 until she married Kermit Gosnell in 1990, when she switched to only working on Sundays. At that time, the abortion business was officially closed but would do its latest-term abortions possible.

The grand jury report indicates Pearl Gosnell testified that she alone helped Kermit do abortions on Sundays when she would “help do the instruments” in the operating room despite no medical training.

Previously, Judge Lerner ruled two other former employees, Eileen O’Neill and Madeline Joe, are not allowed to have their cases separated from that of Dr. Kermit Gosnell. Neither O’Neill nor Joe are charged with killing babies in infanticides and, although their attorneys argued the horrifying allegations against Gosnell could unfairly taint their cases, they were not allowed to plead guilty in deals as was the case with six other former employees.

The murder charges also came in connection with the botched abortion death of 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar, who died at Gosnell’s abortion clinic after a failed abortion. Mongar died November 20, 2009, after overdosing on anesthetics prescribed by the doctor. Mongar’s family filed a lawsuit against Gosnell’s abortion business seeking damages.

Gosnell and several staffers at his abortion center, including Pearl, were arrested in January after a grand jury indicted them on multiple charges after officials raided his abortion business following a woman’s death and discovered a “shop of horrors” filled with bags of bodies and body parts of deceased unborn children and babies killed in infanticides. Pearl Gosnell, Kermit’s 49-year-old wife who has no medical license, faces a charge of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks and conspiracy and other charges.

Gosnell has been denied bail while the case against him moves forward. Women have spoken out about their treatment and one woman says she was drugged and tied up and forced to have an abortion.

Authorities searching the facility last year found bags and bottles holding aborted babies scattered around the building, jars containing babies’ severed feet lining a shelf, as well as filthy, unsanitary furniture and equipment.

The grand jury investigation also shows state officials did nothing when reports came in about problems at Gosnell’s abortion center, which has upset incoming pro-life Governor Tom Corbett.

Gosnell’s abortion center was inspected only after a federal drug raid in 2010. It was the first time the facility had been inspected in 17 years because state officials ignored complaints and failed to visit Gosnell’s Women’s Medical Society for years.

The abortion industry has been forced to suspend two abortion businesses that employed embattled abortion practitioner Kermit Gosnell, who has been the subject of national controversy over his abortion business in Philadelphia.

Following revelations that Gosnell is associated with two other abortion centers in Louisiana and Delaware, the National Abortion Federation made the decision to suspend the memberships of both. Atlantic Women’s Medical Services, the Delaware abortion business that employed Gosnell one day a week to do abortions, and the Delta Clinic abortion center of Baton Rouge, have both had their memberships suspended. Leroy Brinkley owns both abortion businesses. Atlantic operates abortion centers in Wilmington and Dover.


http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/08/gosnell-worker-baby-screamed-during-live-birth-abortion/

[RandomGuy]

Because we can trust "lifenews.com" to give us the truth on anything having to do with abortion.

Sorry. Not going to buy it until you can find a slightly more credible source.

As noted before abortion opponents lie through their teeth, and are highly motivated to keep doing so by their own ideology.

[RandomGuy]

Not to say that some unlicensed shop of horrors doesn't exist. If true it would be very gruesome, and closer regulation of such places should be done.


It also, however, points to what would happen should such things be made illegal, and all providers then have to operate outside the law.


Make it too difficult, and the demand will drive some supply of providers, whether you like it or not. Illegal does not mean non-existant.

[RandomGuy]

(warning at least one rather gruesome picture)

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/why-dr-kermit-gosnells-trial-should-be-a-front-page-story/274944/

It includes a link to the grand jury report, and does confirm mouses article. Quite frankly what I read started to make me physically ill. Not sure I have the stomach for the 284 page grand jury report.

While I am not normally in favor of the death penalty, it would seem this guy would be a candidate for a slow, painful death if there ever was one.

[spursncowboys]

Because we can trust "lifenews.com" to give us the truth on anything having to do with abortion.

Sorry. Not going to buy it until you can find a slightly more credible source.

As noted before abortion opponents lie through their teeth, and are highly motivated to keep doing so by their own ideology.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/florida.abortion/

[spursncowboys]

...

[spursncowboys]

I must've missed where the law you posted stated it only applies to 24wks or later. (or specifically 12 weeks or later).. Already stated I don't have a problem with the State regulating after the 1st trimester if plainly stated in the law.



As stated, there's no scientific way to determine when a fetus stops being a fetus and becomes a baby. But it doesn't matter. Up to the first trimester, the decision on what to do with whatever it is, is between the mother and physician, and whatever it is, has no "right to life" during that time. I'm ok with that, and whatever legislation that wants to attribute powers to the State in that regard need to address the fact that they cannot get involved in the first trimester.

After the 1st trimester, the State can choose to do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

The state attorney's office, meanwhile, said its criminal investigation into the incident is ongoing and no charges have been filed. A fetus born alive cannot be put to death even if its mother intended to have an abortion, police said when the incident occurred in 2006.
?http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/florida.abortion/

[spursncowboys]

(at 23 weeks)Renelique was still not present when Williams "felt a large pain" and delivered a baby girl, according to the suit.
"The staff began screaming and pandemonium ensued. Sycloria watched in horror and shock as her baby writhed with her chest rising and falling as she breathed."
A clinic co-owner entered the room and used a pair of shears to cut the baby's umbilical cord, the suit said. She "then scooped up the baby and placed the live baby, placenta and afterbirth in a red plastic biohazard bag, which she sealed, and then threw bag and the baby in a trash

[spursncowboys]

Do Pro-choice people think this is how you dispose of something that was breathing?

[Spurminator]

Do Pro-choice people think this is how you dispose of something that was breathing?

No. That clinic worker should face charges.

Any other strawmen?

[ElNono]

[/FONT][/COLOR]?http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/florida.abortion/

Not sure how that contradicts anything I said? The State is legally able to do whatever it wants after the 1st trimester.

[mingus]

Pretty fucked up. Abortion in general is fucked up but this takes it to a new level.

[spursncowboys]

No. That clinic worker should face charges.

Any other strawmen?

How is a question a strawman?

[mouse]

If you placed a seed in the dirt and it sprouted roots and finally pokes out the dirt you would consider it a plant. If someone came by and yanked it out the ground you wouldn't say "hey that was my seed" you would say you killed my plant.

Why should a living fetus be any different? I know its not really a living child until it's potty trained.


I have no problem with any woman that wants to kill her fetus just as long as she gets at least 10 years for doing it. I bet a lot of rubbers get put on after that law is past.

[The Reckoning]

yall ever watch The Silent Scream?

holy shit we had to watch that in school and i almost lost my lunch.

[The Reckoning]

here's a published journal paper on fetal pain with regard to neonatal perception

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/local/scisoc/brownbag/brownbag0506/fetalpain.pdf

[BradLohaus]

I read recently that in Sweden the women average over 2 abortions for every birth, while the Muslim immigrant women average 5+ kids.

That should end well. Nothing describes a healthy society better than the woman exterminating their own offspring in the womb, routinely. Progress is awesome! :tu

[admiralsnackbar]

How is a question a strawman?
Before the term came to mean a question that is not meant to be answered, the rhetorical question was just that: a question meant to achieve a rhetorical goal. In this case, you posted a horrific description of an abortion which led to a doctor losing his license to practice and has occasioned a criminal investigation, then asked whether pro-choice advocates support this kind of activity. Given everyone who has argued the pro-choice tack in this thread has made an effort to underscore the need for following the legal guidelines of Roe vs. Wade your quack example appears to have been more cavalier about, it seems pretty clear you made a weak-sauce strawman.

[Spurminator]

I read recently that in Sweden the women average over 2 abortions for every birth, while the Muslim immigrant women average 5+ kids.

That should end well. Nothing describes a healthy society better than the woman exterminating their own offspring in the womb, routinely. Progress is awesome! :tu

So we should take a Muslim view of abortion in order ti not be overrun by Muslims. Makes sense to me.

[spursncowboys]

Before the term came to mean a question that is not meant to be answered, the rhetorical question was just that: a question meant to achieve a rhetorical goal. In this case, you posted a horrific description of an abortion which led to a doctor losing his license to practice and has occasioned a criminal investigation, then asked whether pro-choice advocates support this kind of activity. Given everyone who has argued the pro-choice tack in this thread has made an effort to underscore the need for following the legal guidelines of Roe vs. Wade your quack example appears to have been more cavalier about, it seems pretty clear you made a weak-sauce strawman.
Your paranoia led you to read into my question as an abortion question. The question was in regard to how the "fetus" is disposed of.

[admiralsnackbar]

Your paranoia led you to read into my question as an abortion question. The question was in regard to how the "fetus" is disposed of.

:lol You are not good at this.

[spursncowboys]

:lol You are not good at this.
You are the most conceited moron on this site. :toast congrats

[spursncowboys]

Still haven't figured out what logical fallacies are....

[boutons_deux]

not to start another thread, Galileo-like

Why We Need to Talk About the Horrifying Gosnell Abortion Trial

http://www.alternet.org/files/styles/story_image/public/story_images/screen_shot_2013-04-14_at_1.57.33_pm.png


His business was able to thrive because of limited access to reproductive choice, not because of reproductive choice itself.

Philadelphia abortion provider Dr. Kermit Gosnell is accused of running a clinic straight out of the Saw horror franchise: standard practices allegedly included snipping the spines of live newborns with rusty equipment, storing feces in cat-food containers and fetus feet in jars, and overdosing patients, particularly those who were poor women of color. Make no mistake: if these charges are correct, Gosnell is a monster. But his business was able to thrive because of limited access to reproductive choice, not because of reproductive choice itself.

From the pages of the grisly grand jury report (http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf) detailing the case against 72-year-old Dr. Kermit Gosnell, accused of murdering one woman and seven infants (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/20/kermit-gosnell-abortion-doctors-babies_n_2914543.html) (Here's a good chronological recap (http://www.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?expire=&title=Neglect+of+West+Philly+Abortion+Victims+Was+ %27By+Design%27+%7C+Cover+Story+%7C+News+and+Opini on+%7C+Philadelphia+Weekly&urlID=445973727&action=cpt&partnerID=469217&cid=115046989&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.philadelphiaweekly.com%2Fnews-and-opinion%2Fcover-story%2FNeglect-of-West-Philly-Abortion-Victims-Was-By-Design.html%3FprintView%3Dy) from Philadelphia Weekly's Tara Murtha if you want more background):
This case is about a doctor who killed babies and endangered women. What we mean is that he regularly and illegally delivered live, viable, babies in the third trimester of pregnancy – and then murdered these newborns by severing their spinal cords with scissors. The medical practice by which he carried out this business was a filthy fraud in which he overdosed his patients with dangerous drugs, spread venereal disease among them with infected instruments, perforated their wombs and bowels – and, on at least two occasions, caused their deaths. Over the years, many people came to know that something was going on here. But no one put a stop to it.

Anti-abortion advocates, naturally, are thrilled that Gosnell is on trial. Horrified along with the rest of us, but thrilled at a chance to argue that this case illustrates how unspeakably disgusting abortion is using the most visceral evidence imaginable. "This is not about being 'pro-choice' or 'pro-life,'" Kristen Powers argues in a USA Today op-ed (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/10/philadelphia-abortion-clinic-horror-column/2072577/)that seems to have drawn significant national attention to the case for the first time since Gosnell's "Women's Medical Society" was raided in early 2010. "It's about basic human rights."


But this case is all about the difference between supporting and blocking reproductive choice.



http://www.alternet.org/why-we-need-talk-about-horrifying-gosnell-abortion-trial

[boutons_deux]

Howard Kurtz refutes Fox News pundit: ‘Conservative media didn’t do much’ on Gosnell case


CNN media critic Howard Kurtz on Sunday pushed back against a Fox News pundit who slammed the “deafening silence of too much of the media” over coverage of a Philadelphia doctor accused of killing seven babies and one woman while performing late-term abortions.

In a USA Today column (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/10/philadelphia-abortion-clinic-horror-column/2072577/) last week, Fox News political analyst Kirsten Powers pointed to former Pennsylvania abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell as evidence that Planned Parenthood has been wrong to claim that it’s “highly unusual” that infants survive late-term abortions.

Powers said that there was a double standard because conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh had received front page coverage after he called Sandra Fluke a “slut” over her advocacy of contraception coverage for students, but Gosnell had not gotten the same attention.

“You don’t have to oppose abortion rights to find late-term abortion abhorrent or to find the Gosnell trial eminently newsworthy,” the Fox News pundit wrote. “The deafening silence of too much of the media, once a force for justice in America, is a disgrace.”

In his “Media Monitor” segment on Sunday, Kurtz agreed that the Gosnell case had not gotten enough national coverage, but suggested that conservatives had oversimplified the argument to attack the “liberal media.”

“Some conservatives are saying this amounts to blackout by the so-called liberal media, but it’s more complicated than that,” he explained. “First, the Gosnell case has drawn some coverage since the FBI first raided that clinic back in 2010, in such outlets as Time, NPR, the AP, The New York Times, Slate and The Daily Beast. Now since Gosnell’s trial began, CNN has done a half dozen segments, including one by Jake Tapper back on March 21 and Fox News did a story that same day.”

“MSNBC, like Fox, has done a few stories,” Kurtz continued. “CBS and ABC carried evening news segments back in January, but there hasn’t been nearly enough on the trial. Almost nothing in The Washington Post, not enough in The New York Times. Perhaps the mainstream press is less attuned to a story that cast a shadow on abortion, but the conservative media didn’t do much either.”


“And it’s not like even the staunchest pro-choice advocate would defend what Gosnell is alleged to have done. This is a gruesome case that journalists on both sides of the abortion question have told me is hard to stomach.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/14/howard-kurtz-refutes-fox-news-pundit-conservative-media-didnt-do-much-on-gosnell-case/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29


Did somebody catch Fox Repug Propaganda network distorting, misrepresenting, LYING yet again? yawn

[admiralsnackbar]

Still haven't figured out what logical fallacies are....
:lol Apologies -- we can't all be enlightened Ayn Rand advocates who never took a 101 course in philosophy.

[RandomGuy]

Do Pro-choice people think this is how you dispose of something that was breathing?

The answer is no.

Pretty clear. Don't even see why this would need to be asked.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol Apologies -- we can't all be enlightened Ayn Rand advocates who never took a 101 course in philosophy.

Pro-life jeebotard Ayn Rand advocates like spursncowboys and Wild Cobra are a shining example of unintentional comedy :lol

Ayn Rand probably said more negative stuff about religion and god in a week than I have in my entire life, while she was outspokenly pro-choice and outright said "fetuses don't have rights" on several occasions. Her views on social issues were as left wing as it gets.

[spursncowboys]

:lol Apologies -- we can't all be enlightened Ayn Rand advocates who never took a 101 course in philosophy.
I don't know where you get advocate from. Then again you are an idiot. I did take that course. Just not major in it like you. Congrats though on your Bachelors that gets you nothing in life. Good luch figuring out what a slippery slope is yet?

[spursncowboys]

Pro-life jeebotard Ayn Rand advocates like spursncowboys and Wild Cobra are a shining example of unintentional comedy :lol

Ayn Rand probably said more negative stuff about religion and god in a week than I have in my entire life, while she was outspokenly pro-choice and outright said "fetuses don't have rights" on several occasions. Her views on social issues were as left wing as it gets.
And... What I find humorous about college kids is everytime they learn something, they explain it as if others didn't already know that. My views on here have been developed through real life experiences and are not picked from a certain person, like say a philosopher or college professor. Thanks for the info about Ayn Rand. Real quick- any idea if the founding fathers were slave owners? Because I really want to idolize them but would feel real silly if they had any flaws. Then some intelligent college kid could really show me up.

[spursncowboys]

The answer is no.

Pretty clear. Don't even see why this would need to be asked.

So then how would you dispose of fetuses? Honest question.

[admiralsnackbar]

Congrats though on your Bachelors that gets you nothing in life. What -- you think you're the only person whose mangling of philosophical ideas and rhetoric make me laugh? I get tons of pleasure out of my BA, baby. :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And... What I find humorous about college kids is everytime they learn something, they explain it as if others didn't already know that.
The way jeebotards like you and WC fellate Ayn Rand's ideas in spite of how retarded she'd think you are because of your religious views, I'm willing to bet you didn't already know that.


My views on here have been developed through real life experiences and are not picked from a certain person, like say a philosopher or college professor.
:lmao right, your views on Christianity I'm sure were developed from "real life experience," not an upbringing that indoctrinated you. I'm curious what real life experiences made you believe stories about Noah building an arc and some dude living in a whale.


Thanks for the info about Ayn Rand.
Anytime.


Real quick- any idea if the founding fathers were slave owners? Because I really want to idolize them but would feel real silly if they had any flaws.
Me too. I'd feel pretty silly if I were to idolize slave owners. Not very good role models to look up to.


Then some intelligent college kid could really show me up.
Like I've already showed you up countless times when you come up with retarded stuff about how I've never had a job :lol

[spursncowboys]

FArcxa2PGus#!

[spursncowboys]

What -- you think you're the only person whose mangling of philosophical ideas and rhetoric make me laugh? I get tons of pleasure out of my BA, baby. :lol
What are you referring to?

[spursncowboys]

The way jeebotards like you and WC fellate Ayn Rand's ideas in spite of how retarded she'd think you are because of your religious views, I'm willing to bet you didn't already know that. what's a jeebotard? I respect WC's opinion but rarely are ours similar. I don't know how she would have viewed my religion. I doubt I would care much though.



:lmao right, your views on Christianity I'm sure were developed from "real life experience," not an upbringing that indoctrinated you. I'm curious what real life experiences made you believe stories about Noah building an arc and some dude living in a whale. What?? :lmao. You're off of this one. You talk about your upbringing and I'll bring up mine. I'm pretty sure your parents were the kind with a baby on board sticker on their volvo.




Like I've already showed you up countless times when you come up with retarded stuff about how I've never had a job :lol
I don't really write on this forum with the intent of winning/losing an argument, however I don't see how you could win with 5th grade put downs and regurgitated community college professor spin.

[spursncowboys]

I get tons of pleasure out of my BA, baby. :lol
such as

[admiralsnackbar]

such as

Such as rising above the fray? :lol

If you'd ever cracked a book, you'd understand that the issues philosophers dealt with 2000 years ago haven't been solved and won't be solved -- everything is variation on a theme. If you think understanding where arguments are going to go has no practical application, you've never been involved in a successful business negotiation. If you can't follow or critically demand logical consistency, you've never understood why science is so compelling (and when it isn't).

Anyway... just let us know when you want to get back on topic.

[spursncowboys]

If you'd ever cracked a book, you'd understand that the issues philosophers dealt with 2000 years ago haven't been solved and won't be solved -- everything is variation on a theme. If you think understanding where arguments are going to go has no practical application, you've never been involved in a successful business negotiation. If you can't follow or critically demand logical consistency, you've never understood why science is so compelling (and when it isn't).

But you were wrong in your assumption, much like in all of these assumptions.

[boutons_deux]

Federal Judge Prevents Mississippi From Shutting Down Its Last Abortion Clinic (http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/04/16/1870931/mississippi-abortion-clinic-stays-open/)
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/jackson-clinic.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/04/16/1870931/mississippi-abortion-clinic-stays-open/

[boutons_deux]

Amazing people setting themselves as targets for Kansas "Christ told me to murder all y'all" "Christian" bubbas

As George Tiller’s Wichita Clinic Reopens, ‘After Tiller’ Reframes The Abortion Debate (http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/02/11/1570541/as-george-tillers-wichita-clinic-reopens-after-tiller-reframes-the-abortion-debate/)


Dr. George Tiller’s abortion clinic in Wichita, shuttered after he was murdered at his church in 2009, will be reopening under the leadership of Julie Burkhart, who worked with Tiller when he was alive. In Burkhart’s conversation with Sheppard, she says that she decided to reopen the clinic in part because no one else would do it, and because she wants to reframe the debate about abortion care. “I think abortion is about motherhood,” she said. “Abortion is about motherhood because by and large women coming in to have abortions are concerned about the kind of life and the future for their children. Women are thinking in a very responsible manner when choosing that.”

These are important points, and ones made at greater length in one of the best documentaries I saw at the Sundance Film Festival in January, After Tiller. By first-time directors Martha Shane and Lana Wilson, After Tiller spends time not just with the four remaining doctors in the United States who are willing to perform late-term abortions—Burkhart’s clinic will not—but with many of their patients. It’s a set of perspectives that rarely enters the national debate about the legality of abortion procedures. The testimony of women and men who badly wanted children who have grown too sick to survive, and of doctors who help them when almost no one else will, may not convince the people who protest outside the four doctors’ clinics, and for whom the questions involved have simple and obvious answers.

etc

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/02/11/1570541/as-george-tillers-wichita-clinic-reopens-after-tiller-reframes-the-abortion-debate/

[admiralsnackbar]

But you were wrong in your assumption, much like in all of these assumptions.

Then I congratulate you on your ability to disguise your intelligence and literacy -- you really had me going with that straw-man thing, ol' boy!

[Blake]

Then I congratulate you on your ability to disguise your intelligence and literacy -- you really had me going with that straw-man thing, ol' boy!

lol

[spursncowboys]

What a clown comment. Typical. I bet you think you come off as smart and not a moronic windbag.

[spursncowboys]

:lol
:flypig

[admiralsnackbar]

What a clown comment. Typical. I bet you think you come off as smart and not a moronic windbag.

Nah -- I'm really just impressed by the lengths you'll go to to move the discussion away from the fact that you egregiously used a straw-man when could have just as easily said: "beg your pardon -- I did make an irrational appeal to everyone's emotions," and moved the discussion on from there. Ever hear of the first law of holes?

[Winehole23]

if you have something to bury it makes sense to keep digging.

[boutons_deux]

Federal Court Blocks Mississippi Admitting Privileges LawThe state of Mississippi cannot enforce onerous admitting privileges designed to close the state’s lone abortion clinic, ruled a federal court ruled Monday. The Jackson Women’s Health Organization (JWHO) has served women and families in Mississippi for 17 years, and has been the sole reproductive health care provider offering abortion in the state since 2002. The next nearest clinics for Mississippi residents are approximately three hours away, with most neighboring states requiring a mandatory 24-hour waiting period.

House Bill 1390, which was signed into law in April 2012, imposes arbitrary and medically unwarranted restrictions requiring that any physician performing abortions in the state be a board-certified or eligible obstetrician-gynecologist with admitting privileges at an area hospital. After passage, the Center for Reproductive Rights (CRR) on behalf of the JWHO and Dr. Willie Parker sued, arguing the law was unconstitutional. In July 2012 a federal court partially blocked (http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/07/11/breaking-mississippi-judge-continues-to-block-trap-law/) the law, barring the state from imposing criminal and civil penalties on the clinic doctors and staff during the administrative process of attempting to comply with the admitting privileges regulation. State officials were preparing to revoke the clinic’s license following a hearing set for Thursday, April 18, 2013.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/04/15/federal-court-blocks-mississippi-admitting-privileges-law/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rhrealitycheck+%28RH+Reality+ Check%29

racist, Confederate Mississippi :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Link: Gosnell Trial Witness: Baby Abortion Survivor Was 'Swimming' in Toilet 'Trying to Get Out' (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/gosnell-trial-witness-baby-abortion-survivor-was-swimming-toilet-trying-get-out)