Quick, who is the only top 10 player to win less than half the Finals MVPs?

[ambchang]

You got it, KAJ.

He only won 2 Finals MVP over 6 titles. I used to think he is #1 of all time, but I am starting to second guess that. Missing playoffs in his prime, only 2 for 6 for the Finals MVP. I mean, when he was in his prime, he was pretty much unstoppable, but dude really just hung on too long, should have retired mid 80s or something.

Just in case you are wondering, the other top 9

MJ - 6 for 6
Magic - 3 for 5
Bird - 2 for 3
Duncan - 3 for 4
Shaq - 3 for 4
Hakeem - 2 for 2
Moses - 1 for 1
Russell - N/A
Chamberlain - 1 for 1 (didn't have the FMVP during his first championship)

What the helll, I will throw in an extra:
Lebron James - 1 for 1

[LkrFan]

You got it, KAJ.

He only won 2 Finals MVP over 6 titles. I used to think he is #1 of all time, but I am starting to second guess that. Missing playoffs in his prime, only 2 for 6 for the Finals MVP. I mean, when he was in his prime, he was pretty much unstoppable, but dude really just hung on too long, should have retired mid 80s or something.

Just in case you are wondering, the other top 9

MJ - 6 for 6
Magic - 3 for 5
Bird - 2 for 3
Duncan - 3 for 4
Shaq - 3 for 4
Hakeem - 2 for 2
Moses - 1 for 1
Russell - N/A
Chamberlain - 1 for 1 (didn't have the FMVP during his first championship)

What the helll, I will throw in an extra:
Lebron James - 1 for 1Quick, which one on that list is the only HOFer to EVER lose to an 8th seed? :lol

[Thread]

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...

[Fabbs]

Bob Parish workin over Kareem in '84.
Would have in '85 too but he got sucker punched/backstabbed by that pussy Mitch Cupcake.
Rendered Bob 60% so Kream had a chance.

[Flawless]

Quick, which one on that list is the only HOFer to EVER lose to an 8th seed? :lol
Duncan! Do I get an award? :)

[spurraider21]

Quick, which one on that list is the only HOFer to EVER lose to an 8th seed? :lol

Is it a better season to get the top seed and lose to the 8th seed in your age 34 season or miss the playoffs when in your prime?

[ambchang]

Quick, which one on that list is the only HOFer to EVER lose to an 8th seed? :lol

None. I believe

[Killakobe81]

You got it, KAJ.

He only won 2 Finals MVP over 6 titles. I used to think he is #1 of all time, but I am starting to second guess that. Missing playoffs in his prime, only 2 for 6 for the Finals MVP. I mean, when he was in his prime, he was pretty much unstoppable, but dude really just hung on too long, should have retired mid 80s or something.

Just in case you are wondering, the other top 9

MJ - 6 for 6
Magic - 3 for 5
Bird - 2 for 3
Duncan - 3 for 4
Shaq - 3 for 4
Hakeem - 2 for 2
Moses - 1 for 1
Russell - N/A
Chamberlain - 1 for 1 (didn't have the FMVP during his first championship)

What the helll, I will throw in an extra:
Lebron James - 1 for 1
Dat loss bringing out the best (worst) in the most salty of Spur fans...

Having Steve Blake, Steve BLAKE I SAID!!! go ham on Parker does that to Spur fan ...

[LkrFan]

Is it a better season to get the top seed and lose to the 8th seed in your age 34 season or miss the playoffs when in your prime?

Before I answer that, let's revisit history, shall we?

Spurs:
1987-1988: 28-54 (tank season for the Admiral. Due to Navy commitments, couldn't play just yet)
1988-1989: 21-61 (tanked again - probably for good draft picks. Smart GM tbh.
1989-1990: 56-26 (amazing how that happened! Just so happened to be Admiral's rookie season)
1990-1996: made the playoffs every year with varied results (no rangs though)
1996-1997: 20-62 (tank job. No ifs ands or buts about it. Earned the #1 pick that turned into TD)
1997-2013: 14 consecutive seasons of 50+ wins (nice job :toast)

Lakers:
2003-2004: 56-26 (loaded roster, lost Finals, The Big Eviction!)
2004-2005: 34-48 (tanked for Bynum. No ifs ands or buts about it)

Then in 2006, Kobe had to roll with the likes of the below. And :lol at people blaming him for not getting past loaded Suns teams. SMH:

Lamar Odom (weedhead, inconsistent at best, didn't thrive until Pau arrived)
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Luke Walton
Chucky Atkins
Brian Cook
Von Wafer
Laron Profit
Devin Green
Jim Jackson (13th year-TOSB)
Bynum (R - PJ doesn't play rooks)

^Other than Bynum and Odumb, which one of these players is either a scrub on someone's bench right now, or even in the league anymore? :lol

So you see, we took a page out of the Spurs' playbook. Tank to get a good draft pick. So yes, I disagree with the bolded. Kobe had no control over a tank job, so it shouldn't be held against him. :downspin:

[LkrFan]

None. I believe

:lol - rigggghhhhttt.

[spurraider21]

Before I answer that, let's revisit history, shall we?

Spurs:
1987-1988: 28-54 (tank season for the Admiral. Due to Navy commitments, couldn't play just yet)
1988-1989: 21-61 (tanked again - probably for good draft picks. Smart GM tbh.
1989-1990: 56-26 (amazing how that happened! Just so happened to be Admiral's rookie season)
1990-1996: made the playoffs every year with varied results (no rangs though)
1996-1997: 20-62 (tank job. No ifs ands or buts about it. Earned the #1 pick that turned into TD)
1997-2013: 14 consecutive seasons of 50+ wins (nice job :toast)

Lakers:
2003-2004: 56-26 (loaded roster, lost Finals, The Big Eviction!)
2004-2005: 34-48 (tanked for Bynum. No ifs ands or buts about it)

Then in 2006, Kobe had to roll with the likes of the below. And :lol at people blaming him for not getting past loaded Suns teams. SMH:

Lamar Odom (weedhead, inconsistent at best, didn't thrive until Pau arrived)
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Luke Walton
Chucky Atkins
Brian Cook
Von Wafer
Laron Profit
Devin Green
Jim Jackson (13th year-TOSB)
Bynum (R - PJ doesn't play rooks)

^Other than Bynum and Odumb, which one of these players is either a scrub on someone's bench right now, or even in the league anymore? :lol

So you see, we took a page out of the Spurs' playbook. Tank to get a good draft pick. So yes, I disagree with the bolded. Kobe had no control over a tank job, so it shouldn't be held against him. :downspin:

:lmao insinuating the Lakers tanked to get the oh so coveted #10 overall pick

:lmao all your "history" doesn't change the fact that Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime. Something Robinson never did and Tim never did.

:lmao claiming the devoid of talent Spurs in 87 were "tanking" and the same spurs in 88 who didn't have their first round pick were "tanking." there's a difference between tanking and just not having the horses. thats like calling the bobcats a tanking team (to a lesser degree).

[Koolaid_Man]

Quick, which one on that list is the only HOFer to EVER lose to an 8th seed? :lol

Lkrfan...I need you or Whitemamba to do me a favor....In your spare time..please spread the word at LG and beyond...hopefully through a ground swell of support this will reach Kobe and his doctor..perhaps he goes to Germany to get some stem cells injected or some sort of blood enrichment procedure to aid in a miraculous healing...

I
njecting Bone Marrow Stem Cells help Repair Achilles Tendon Rupture http://www.regenexx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/achilles-tendon-rupture-stem-cell-injection.jpg (http://www.regenexx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/achilles-tendon-rupture-stem-cell-injection.jpg)
Interesting animal model of tendon healing using stem cell injections to help repair Achilles tendon injuries. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21123607) The Achilles tendon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_tendon) is the large tendon in the back of the ankle, just above the heel. It’s also known as the “heel cord”. It’s the connection between the strong calf muscles and the heel, allowing forceful push off of the foot while walking and running. An Achilles tendon rupture (http://www.emedicinehealth.com/achilles_tendon_rupture/article_em.htm) is the most common injury of a tendon. It occurs more commonly in men and is usually seen in younger athletes or middle aged recreational athletes. In addition, the Quinolone family of antibiotics such as Cipro and Levaquin have recently been shown to be a cause of Achilles tendon ruptures (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/463008). While this problem is commonly treated with surgery, the most modern randomized trials have showed no benefit to surgery. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_tendon_rupture) This is important, as Achilles tendon rupture surgery involves extensive downtime and surgical repairs have a high failure rate. To avoid Achilles tendon surgery, the above study sought to determine if the same type of stem cell mix used in Regenexx-SD (http://www.regenexx.com/2010/10/regenexx-sd-lab-processing-produces-double-the-mesenchymal-stem-cells-when-compared-to-a-bedside-centrifuge/) might help Achilles tendon tears heal. It compared the injection of a bone marrow stem cell mix to cultured mesenchymal stem cells. What was interesting was that the Regenexx-SD type stem cell injection treatment into the Achilles tendon (http://www.regenexx.com/the-regenexx-procedures/ankle-surgery-alternative/) produced better results than the cultured cells. The authors thought this may have been due to the release of certain healing chemicals from the whole cell mix of the Regenexx-SD type therapy (which contains other stem cell types and other cells involved in tendon healing).
The failure of the cultured stem cells in this animal model may have been due to issues that we’ve observed in other research studies. One thing we’ve noticed is that to get enough cells to create a single treatment, it’s common for researchers to pool the cells of several subjects. In addition, the appearance of the stem cells used in these studies often shows that the cultured cells have been grown for too long a time and are under severe stress (not healthy). This may explain why the cultured cells didn’t work as well as fresh cells from a stem cell concentrate. However, the fact that this study confirms an animal model of tendon healing is consistent with results we’ve observed when we inject the stem cells obtained with the Regenexx-SD and Regenexx-C (http://www.regenexx.com/2333/) procedures into tendon tears. In addition, any injection based treatment for tendon tears will be significantly less traumatic and usually have a much shorter recovery time than any open surgical treatment.




http://www.regenexx.com/2010/12/injecting-bone-marrow-stem-cells-help-repair-tendon-rupture/

[KaiRMD1]

Lakers:
2003-2004: 56-26 (loaded roster, lost Finals, The Big Eviction!)
2004-2005: 34-48 (tanked for Bynum. No ifs ands or buts about it)

So you see, we took a page out of the Spurs' playbook. Tank to get a good draft pick. So yes, I disagree with the bolded. Kobe had no control over a tank job, so it shouldn't be held against him. :downspin:

If the Lakers tanked to get Bynum then they don't deserve to be a franchise tbh. Seriously, you're comparing tanking for the Admiral and Duncan for Bynum? Get the fuck outta here!!!!

[ambchang]

:lol - rigggghhhhttt.

Then tell me which HoF in that list lost to an 8th seed. Quick.

[ambchang]

Dat loss bringing out the best (worst) in the most salty of Spur fans...

Having Steve Blake, Steve BLAKE I SAID!!! go ham on Parker does that to Spur fan ...


It is tough to swallow, a Lakers team with that imposing frontline can and did beat the Spurs with a backcourt player like Steve Blake.

The Lakers frontline is really difficult to deal with, as is the case since 2007.

[ambchang]

Before I answer that, let's revisit history, shall we?

Spurs:
1987-1988: 28-54 (tank season for the Admiral. Due to Navy commitments, couldn't play just yet)
1988-1989: 21-61 (tanked again - probably for good draft picks. Smart GM tbh.
1989-1990: 56-26 (amazing how that happened! Just so happened to be Admiral's rookie season)
1990-1996: made the playoffs every year with varied results (no rangs though)
1996-1997: 20-62 (tank job. No ifs ands or buts about it. Earned the #1 pick that turned into TD)
1997-2013: 14 consecutive seasons of 50+ wins (nice job :toast)

Lakers:
2003-2004: 56-26 (loaded roster, lost Finals, The Big Eviction!)
2004-2005: 34-48 (tanked for Bynum. No ifs ands or buts about it)

Then in 2006, Kobe had to roll with the likes of the below. And :lol at people blaming him for not getting past loaded Suns teams. SMH:

Lamar Odom (weedhead, inconsistent at best, didn't thrive until Pau arrived)
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Luke Walton
Chucky Atkins
Brian Cook
Von Wafer
Laron Profit
Devin Green
Jim Jackson (13th year-TOSB)
Bynum (R - PJ doesn't play rooks)

^Other than Bynum and Odumb, which one of these players is either a scrub on someone's bench right now, or even in the league anymore? :lol

So you see, we took a page out of the Spurs' playbook. Tank to get a good draft pick. So yes, I disagree with the bolded. Kobe had no control over a tank job, so it shouldn't be held against him. :downspin:

Why would coach Kobe allow the Lakers to tank, I thought he is such a warrior that he won't let his team lose :( :(
Coach Kobe unable to handle his team :(
Can't make the playoffs without one of the greatest coach in the history of the league :(


But let's look at Pau Gasol. In 2005, aka the year the Lakers missed the playoffs for the coveted #10 pick in a relatively weak draft (Chris Paul and Fat boy Williams turned out to be the only players who are worth a tank job for), Gasol played in 53 games, and still led a supporting cast of:
Shane Battier (role player who was never meant to be a scoring option)
Mike Miller (Worst ROY of all time)
Bonzi Wells (Volatile, time bomb)
Jason Williams (Overrated because he is white and have a playground game)
Stromille Swift (Runs like a deer, jumps like a deer, thinks like a deer)
Lorenzo Wright (A blob of wasted potential)
Brian Cardinal (Predecessor of Bonner and Scalabrine)
James Posey (All dirty defense, no offense)
Earl Watson (One of the rare NBA players who are shorter than me)
Dahntay Jones

And people blame mighty Pau for losing to a stacked Suns team :lol

[Killakobe81]

Why would coach Kobe allow the Lakers to tank, I thought he is such a warrior that he won't let his team lose :( :(
Coach Kobe unable to handle his team :(
Can't make the playoffs without one of the greatest coach in the history of the league :(


But let's look at Pau Gasol. In 2005, aka the year the Lakers missed the playoffs for the coveted #10 pick in a relatively weak draft (Chris Paul and Fat boy Williams turned out to be the only players who are worth a tank job for), Gasol played in 53 games, and still led a supporting cast of:
Shane Battier (role player who was never meant to be a scoring option)
Mike Miller (Worst ROY of all time)
Bonzi Wells (Volatile, time bomb)
Jason Williams (Overrated because he is white and have a playground game)
Stromille Swift (Runs like a deer, jumps like a deer, thinks like a deer)
Lorenzo Wright (A blob of wasted potential)
Brian Cardinal (Predecessor of Bonner and Scalabrine)
James Posey (All dirty defense, no offense)
Earl Watson (One of the rare NBA players who are shorter than me)
Dahntay Jones

And people blame mighty Pau for losing to a stacked Suns team :lol

YOur player recaps are funny. But again you revise history when it suits you. Battier although no star was one of the best defenders in the NBA and a very good starter. He is Robert Horry lite, less clutch ... but probably a better defender especially at THAT time. Posey is another plus defender along with Earl Watson (at that time) and Dantay Jones. They had a smart coach (Fratello IIRC) and focused on defense with PAu leading the offense.

No one is saying Those Grizz should beat any of the teams they faced in that era ...but to ask them them to win ONE game ONE GAME against those "stacked" Suns (with the supposed Leader of the 2009-2010 Championship team on their squad is a low bar). Especially when the Lakers with Smush, Kwame, Mihm and Walton (led by Kobe) were able to do so.

[AaronY]

It really was quite a stretch run Kobe led that 2004-05 team on,...with him healthy and in the lineup they won 2 or their last 20: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2005/

[ambchang]

YOur player recaps are funny. But again you revise history when it suits you. Battier although no star was one of the best defenders in the NBA and a very good starter. He is Robert Horry lite, less clutch ... but probably a better defender especially at THAT time. Posey is another plus defender along with Earl Watson (at that time) and Dantay Jones. They had a smart coach (Fratello IIRC) and focused on defense with PAu leading the offense.

No one is saying Those Grizz should beat any of the teams they faced in that era ...but to ask them them to win ONE game ONE GAME against those "stacked" Suns (with the supposed Leader of the 2009-2010 Championship team on their squad is a low bar). Especially when the Lakers with Smush, Kwame, Mihm and Walton (led by Kobe) were able to do so.

What's the difference between winning one game and winning multiple games in a series then losing?

Also, a playoff team with only one scoring option is inherently flawed. No one player can score with an entire team's defense around him, except Jordan. To top it off, those guys aren't even defty and quick 3 pt shooters, like the 94 and 95 Rockets had, these are average scorers and great defenders.

I also do not understand the need for Kobe fans to treat like Odom never existed from 05 to 07. He is the centerpiece from Miami in the Shaq trade. Obviously, the guy isn't HoF big good like Shaq or Pau, but he was a very good player. It's like Spurs fans saying that Duncan was able to win the championship in 03 despite having guys like Mengke Bateer, Steve Smith and Devin Brown, and ignoring David Robinson, Stephen Jackson, and Kerr and Claxton.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

No one is saying Those Grizz should beat any of the teams they faced in that era ...but to ask them them to win ONE game ONE GAME against those "stacked" Suns (with the supposed Leader of the 2009-2010 Championship team on their squad is a low bar). Especially when the Lakers with Smush, Kwame, Mihm and Walton (led by Kobe) were able to do so.

:lmao what a crock of revisionist history bullshit. The Lakers with Smuch, Kwame, Mihm and Walton were about to take a Suns team w/o Amare Stoudemire that was starting Boris Diaw and Tim Thomas at C and PF to 7 games. The Grizzlies lost to a Suns team that had Joe Johnson and Amare, Gasol would have easily gotten 2 wins against the 2006 Suns.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I also do not understand the need for Kobe fans to treat like Odom never existed from 05 to 07.

You don't understand why Kobe fans try to diminish his supporting cast as much as possible :lol

It's the same reason why they try to glorify the supporting cast Lebron had in Cleveland :lol

[ambchang]

Speaking of the cast in Cleveland, the only decent players were Varejao and Ilgauskas, and Varejao wasn't as good as he is now, while Ilgauskas moves like he is in zero gravity all the time. All the others are pretty bad.

Gooden is like a more ball hog version of Jameson
Hughes is a homeless man in Mumbai version of Kobe
Marshall is soft as marshmellows
Pavlovic is Cleveland's answer to Vujacic (btw, isn't Sasha a girl's name?)
Eric Snow used to be good in 01, but by 07, he was a shell of his former self, and it ain't much of a shell
Shannon Brown, the same guy who played with Kobe
Ira Newble, another guy who played with Kobe
Damon Jones, a guy who had FG% that looks like 3PT%
Boobie Gibson, a guy named after the most famous female part, who somehow managed to be an up and coming star playing with the King.

[midnightpulp]

:lmao what a crock of revisionist history bullshit. The Lakers with Smuch, Kwame, Mihm and Walton were about to take a Suns team w/o Amare Stoudemire that was starting Boris Diaw and Tim Thomas at C and PF to 7 games. The Grizzlies lost to a Suns team that had Joe Johnson and Amare, Gasol would have easily gotten 2 wins against the 2006 Suns.

This times infuckingfinity.

That Suns team minus Amare was anything but "stacked." Not one of those players went on to do anything notable after they left D'Antoni's system, which even made scrubs into 15ppg scorers. Not even Marion excelled outside the system. He floundered in Miami, seeing a .75 drop in FG% his first year there and never averaged more than 15 ppg again. Yeah, he won a championship in Dallas, but as a Horry-type role player, playing tough defense, grabbing boards, and making hustle plays. Even prime Marion wasn't as good as Lamar Odom.

The support casts outside of the team's respective superstars were about even, with the Suns being slightly better. That's why it was a 7 game series. Not because Kobe "willed" it.

[midnightpulp]

You don't understand why Kobe fans try to diminish his supporting cast as much as possible :lol

It's the same reason why they try to glorify the supporting cast Lebron had in Cleveland :lol

A thread I made this awhile ago:


Really just another attempt by Kobe-cocksuckers to rewrite history with the purpose of excusing their hero while placing blame everywhere else. When we go back and examine the stats, we discover that Kobe had sufficient support, to not only make the series competitive (which is was), but to possibly win it outright.

Another fact to consider is that Steve Nash's supporting cast wasn't much superior to that of his superstar counterpart.

The Lakers' unheralded supporting cast wasn't the primary reason the Lakers lost the series, blowing a 3-1 lead in the process. They deserve some of the blame, sure, but so does Bryant. It's not like he was out there scoring 40 a game on 50% shooting (like Jordan would often do before he got a capable supporting cast). Aside from his 50 point explosion in Game 6, Kobe had a very substandard series, and was thoroughly outplayed by Steve Nash(the rightful MVP of the '06 season).

Now, let us digress and take a look at the stats.

Game 1:

A game the Lakers lost by 5. The great, transcendent, mythical-in-stature Kobe Bryant scored 22 points on 33% shooting. On the other hand, Lamar Odom had a 21 and 14 performance on 53% shooting. Luke Walton chimed in with 19 on 56%. Even the much maligned Smush Parker scored 15, managing to out shoot Kobe with a 38% mark.

Truth is, if Kobe contributes the way he's supposed to in that game, the Lakers steal Game 1 on the road.

Game 2:

Lakers win by 6, on the road. Kobe had a nice game with 29 points and 10 boards on 50% shooting. His shitty supporting cast that let him down time and time again did little. Lamar Odom had 21 and 7 on 75% shooting. Kwame Brown was decent with 12 points on 50%, and the bench outscored Phoenix's bench 22 to 4. NO HELP!!!!

Game 3:

Lakers win by 7, at home. The successor to Michael Jordan had 17 points on 33% shooting, but once again, got no help. Luke Walton had 17 points and 10 rebounds on 42%, Smush had a breakout game with 18 points on 56% shooting. Kwame rode the wave and had a double-double, 13 and 11 on 62%, while Odom dominated the boards with 17 rebounds. NO HELP!!!!

Game 4:

Lakers win by 1. Game winner by Kobe. He scored 24 on 64% shooting with 8 dimes, but also 7 TOs. Still, he played a good game. But once again he did all himself, never mind the fact that Odom scored 25 points and LA's bench once again, for the 3rd straight game, outscored Phoenix's. NO HELP!!!!

Game 5:

Back on the road at Phoenix. The Suns were cooking and blew out the Lakers by 17. Kobe had a good game with 29 points, 7 boards, and 5 assists, but also turned the ball over 5 times. Odom's line was 18, 15, and 6 on 50%. Kwame Brown didn't miss a shot and scored 14 points on 6-6 shooting. That said, there was nothing much the Lakers could've done. Phoenix was too hot that night.

Game 6:

Now this is the game Kobe cocksuckers always refer to as evidence that "Kobe had no help." They might say, "The love of my life scored 50 points and we still lost. Kobe's supporting cast sucks!!!!"

Let's take a look.

It was an overtime thriller, which the Lakers lost by 8. Kobe had his first superstar game of the series (all his other games were below his season average, yet, he gets no blame), scoring 50 points, grabbing 8 boards (also had 7 TOs) on 57% shooting. Great game, indeed. But he had more than enough contribution from the other Lakers to win this game (if not, how did the game go into overtime, which only did so because of a Tim Thomas 3?). Odom was stellar with 22 points, 11 boards, and 9 assists on 57% shooting. Kwame Brown scored 17 and only missed one shot. Devean George came off the bench with a solid 14 points.

More than enough offense. Maybe their defense let them down? And Kobe, being the celebrated defender he is, definitely factors into that equation.

Nash had arguably a better game than Kobe. He scored 32 points, dished out 13 assists with only 3 TOs, on an unconscious 64% shooting. Kobe is supposed to be this lockdown defender who will always guard the other team's best perimeter player and shut him down. Guess he needed more than reputation to slow down Nash (or Barbosa, who scored 22 points on 7-9 shooting).

Point is, despite Kobe's scoring performance, he deserves to shoulder some of the blame for this loss. Suns' guards lit up their Lakers' counterparts, and last I checked, Kobe is a guard.

Game 7 isn't really worth going into detail over. The heartbreaking fashion they lost game 6 in all but sealed their fate and the Lakers were already beaten in Game 7 before they even stepped on the floor.

There you have it. Kobe was in no way out there "all by himself" like many of his intellectually challenged fans like to claim.

[Jumi]

^ :toast

[ambchang]

mids with the goods, in fact, over the top goods.

But why are we talking about a fringe top 20 player in this thread? I was talking about top 10 (OK, top 11) all-time right here, there is no place for the leader in missed FGs, and players who can't get into the playoffs with a $100M payroll until he got injured, we are talking about the best of the best.

I would imagine a guy with the handle of Lkrfan would come in and defend the best player ever to play for his/her franchise, the great KAJ.

[Killakobe81]

What's the difference between winning one game and winning multiple games in a series then losing?

Also, a playoff team with only one scoring option is inherently flawed. No one player can score with an entire team's defense around him, except Jordan. To top it off, those guys aren't even defty and quick 3 pt shooters, like the 94 and 95 Rockets had, these are average scorers and great defenders.

I also do not understand the need for Kobe fans to treat like Odom never existed from 05 to 07. He is the centerpiece from Miami in the Shaq trade. Obviously, the guy isn't HoF big good like Shaq or Pau, but he was a very good player. It's like Spurs fans saying that Duncan was able to win the championship in 03 despite having guys like Mengke Bateer, Steve Smith and Devin Brown, and ignoring David Robinson, Stephen Jackson, and Kerr and Claxton.

I don't care what u say one game in THREE PLAYOFF APPEARANCES ...take away the Suns just one game!

[Killakobe81]

This times infuckingfinity.

That Suns team minus Amare was anything but "stacked." Not one of those players went on to do anything notable after they left D'Antoni's system, which even made scrubs into 15ppg scorers. Not even Marion excelled outside the system. He floundered in Miami, seeing a .75 drop in FG% his first year there and never averaged more than 15 ppg again. Yeah, he won a championship in Dallas, but as a Horry-type role player, playing tough defense, grabbing boards, and making hustle plays. Even prime Marion wasn't as good as Lamar Odom.

The support casts outside of the team's respective superstars were about even, with the Suns being slightly better. That's why it was a 7 game series. Not because Kobe "willed" it.

When did Lamar ever get any MVP votes how many asg appearances coaches not fans does Marion have over Odom? LOL still talkin Kobe and he is irrelevant for 9 months

[ambchang]

I don't care what u say one game in THREE PLAYOFF APPEARANCES ...take away the Suns just one game!

He went through the Suns (healthy), Spurs (defensive juggernaut), and Mavs (real 06 champions). Can't blame him for that.

[Killakobe81]

Spin dat shit however you want in fact I don't even care if u say his the MVP of the 2010 Finals but there is no valid excuse for 0-12 ...Memphis is a region I cover and trust me they loved Pau but they know he shrinks from the big moment at times ...just glad we got the best out of him while we could. Great player I hope he makes HOF but he is not what u make him out to be ...wish he was tbh.

[Killakobe81]

He went through the Suns (healthy), Spurs (defensive juggernaut), and Mavs (real 06 champions). Can't blame him for that.

You a smart gorilla amb but sometimes u r such the excuse MAKER ...Kobe lost to a juggernaut Spurs team in Duncans prime, a perfect storm Pistons and Celts team in the Finals ...
If the Lakers rebound before Tim Thomas dagger ... Kobe beats Suns. See what I did there? I don't make excuses or play "what if" ...we lost. But in every case Kobe WON ONE Game!!!!

[ambchang]

You a smart gorilla amb but sometimes u r such the vexcuse MAKER ...Kobe lost to a juffernaut Spurs team in Duncans prime a perfect storm Pistons and Celts team in the Finals ... If Lakers rebound before Tim Thomas dagger Kobe beats Suns. I don't make excuses or play what if we lost. But in every case we WON ONE Game!!!!

Nobody expected Pau to beat the Suns, Mavs or Spurs.

Everybody expected the Lakers to beat the Pistons in 04 (as they didn't count on Kobe chucking the Lakers out of the series), nobody expected Kobe to stop shooting to send a message in a Game 7, most people expected the Lakers to beat the Celtics in 08, and everybody expected the Lakers to have a deep playoff run and dominate the West with OKC this year.

Those are the differences.

[Killakobe81]

Nobody expected Pau to beat the Suns, Mavs or Spurs.

Everybody expected the Lakers to beat the Pistons in 04 (as they didn't count on Kobe chucking the Lakers out of the series), nobody expected Kobe to stop shooting to send a message in a Game 7, most people expected the Lakers to beat the Celtics in 08, and everybody expected the Lakers to have a deep playoff run and dominate the West with OKC this year
Those are the differences.
One game?! R u kidding me? I hope u don't set such low standards for yourself or loved ones. Look I don't play the excuse game if so then Kobe is blameless for missing the playoffs in his prime he was injured and his team was trash. But he STILL misised. If u r the star player that is how IT WORKS ya dig?

[ambchang]

One game?! R u kidding me? I hope u don't set such low standards for yourself or loved ones. Look I don't play the excuse game if so then Kobe is blameless for missing the playoffs in his prime he was injured and his team was trash. But he STILL misised. If u r the star player that is how IT WORKS ya dig?

I don't really understand your obsession with winning one game. What does it do? The Grizzlies were a flawed team, and they didn't have one of the best coaches in league history. The fact that they managed to make the playoffs in the loaded Western Conference with such as flawed team is an accomplishment in itself.

That team is actually very similar to the mid/late 90's Cavs, a bunch of scrapy hard-nosed defenders, and those Cavs managed to win only 1 game in 3 playoff appearances (that one game came against the Knicks, who themselves would have lost to any of the three teams the mighty Pau was swept by), so why would anyone expect the Grizzlies to win anything against those three teams?

But enough about Pau and Kobe, neither are top 10 players in the league's history, and concentrate on the issue at hand, KAJ.

[midnightpulp]

When did Lamar ever get any MVP votes how many asg appearances coaches not fans does Marion have over Odom? LOL still talkin Kobe and he is irrelevant for 9 months

My central point actually has nothing to do with Kobe. I'm addressing how Kobe fans typically downplay his supporting cast in '06 and prop up that Suns team as some kind of stacked all-star team when they were anything but. All for the sake of inflating Kobe's stature. All things considered, the rosters were fairly equal in that series.

Furthermore on that point, who cares if Kobe's supporting cast were no-names and never went on to NBA fame after the Lakers (Speedy Claxton was a no-name, and he stepped up in Game 6 of the '03 Finals and helped Duncan seal the deal). The Laker role players played decently enough in that particular series to give the Lakers a shot, so the stupid myth that Kobe had no help is just that: a myth.

[FkLA]

Its so stupid for lakerfan to bring up how Gasol 'didnt win a playoff game without lord Kobe', especially since their lord Kobe Bean won a whopping 3 playoff games without a dominant big man by his side. Not to mention the fact that their situations were completely different--Gasol had a team that had recently relocated and had never made the playoffs. Kobe took the second most storied franchise in NBA history and contributed to it hitting rock bottom for two years before Stern intervened. Gasol getting the Grizz to the playoffs was actually a success despite the sweeps, helped pave the way for todays Grizz. Meanwhile what Kobe did from 05-07 was a dark and forgettable era for the Lakers. :lol

[Killakobe81]

Its so stupid for lakerfan to bring up how Gasol 'didnt win a playoff game without lord Kobe', especially since their lord Kobe Bean won a whopping 3 playoff games without a dominant big man by his side. Not to mention the fact that their situations were completely different--Gasol had a team that had recently relocated and had never made the playoffs. Kobe took the second most storied franchise in NBA history and contributed to it hitting rock bottom for two years before Stern intervened. Gasol getting the Grizz to the playoffs was actually a success despite the sweeps, helped pave the way for todays Grizz. Meanwhile what Kobe did from 05-07 was a dark and forgettable era for the Lakers. :lol

Thanks, you proved my point end thread.

Not sure where you were educated but 3>0 in fact 300% better ...

/Close thread.

[ambchang]

I think you mean 3>0, not 3>1, but regardless, it has nothing to do with anything. They have different competition, they have different teammates, and the teams they played may or may not be in a slump during that span.

To me, getting out of the 1st round is getting out of the 1st round, whether you lost no games or 3 games doesn't matter. And to me, making the playoffs for all three seasons is definitely better than winning 3 meaningless games in the first round of the playoffs and not making the playoffs in one of them.

[ambchang]

BTW, the close thread comment, again, we are talking about KAJ, can't believe all these supposed Laker fans did NOTHING to defend the greatest player in their franchise's history (along with Magic, of course).

[FkLA]

Thanks, you proved my point end thread.

Not sure where you were educated but 3>1 in fact 300% better ...

/Close thread.

Way to ignore the rest of the post. :lol

It really boils down to the fact that what MVPau did with the Grizz was a success, regardless of the sweeps. What Kobe did from 05-07 was not. But I dont expect anything different from kobefans tbh...afterall yall think Kobe winning 5 with LA is greater than Duncan winning 4 in SA, simply because 5>4. Its funny how from 05-07 the situation Kobe was in is dissected by kobefan but for all the other years its just as simple as 5>4. Zealots tbh.

[Killakobe81]

I think you mean 3>0, not 3>1, but regardless, it has nothing to do with anything. They have different competition, they have different teammates, and the teams they played may or may not be in a slump during that span.

To me, getting out of the 1st round is getting out of the 1st round, whether you lost no games or 3 games doesn't matter. And to me, making the playoffs for all three seasons is definitely better than winning 3 meaningless games in the first round of the playoffs and not making the playoffs in one of them.

But that's where we differ missing the playoffs is an indictment, getting swept is an indictment they just vary. Missing the playoffs is a badge of shame Kobe carries. Pau carries the 0-12 ... I dont discrimnate. What kills me is you claim to be in love with win shares etc. But 0 for 12 ...is 0 for 12 you make excuses, qualifiers all the rest but this one is very simple even a gorilla should be able to understand ... if you have 12 chances and you dont win once that is a failure. Doesnt matter if the competion was difficult or what the expectations were. Im a Cobowys fan Tony Romo has had a bad line and a porous defense ... are those factors for his one playoff win? Sho nuff. But until he wins more games, facts remain he is 1-3 in playoff games. Football is even MORE of a team sport than basketball. But you are what your record says you are. Pau changed it from 2008-2010. But what changed ... he was always a skilled player was he not? He got a better coach and a STAR a #1 to put him in the proper slot as a #2 ...where he is most comfortable. That doesnt make him less valuable or not even a HOF plenty of #2's reside there ... but your excuse making is comical ...are you practicing for next week? :rollin

As for KAreem only the dumbest of Laker fan would make a case for him in this troll thread. KAreem is arguably a GOAT and no matter what your OP premise was takes a hot steaming dump on Timmy, Shaq, Pau or pretty much any big man you want to throw in. He won in HS, college and for two pro teams. Nuff said.

LOL Finals MVPs heck TOny Parker has one ...

[midnightpulp]

But that's where we differ missing the playoffs is an indictment, getting swept is an indictment they just vary. Missing the playoffs is a badge of shame Kobe carries. Pau carries the 0-12 ... I dont discrimnate. What kills me is you claim to be in love with win shares etc. But 0 for 12 ...is 0 for 12 you make excuses, qualifiers all the rest but this one is very simple even a gorilla should be able to understand ... if you have 12 chances and you dont win once that is a failure. Doesnt matter if the competion was difficult or what the expectations were. Im a Cobowys fan Tony Romo has had a bad line and a porous defense ... are those factors for his one playoff win? Sho nuff. But until he wins more games, facts remain he is 1-3 in playoff games. Football is even MORE of a team sport than basketball. But you are what your record says you are. Pau changed it from 2008-2010. But what changed ... he was always a skilled player was he not? He got a better coach and a STAR a #1 to put him in the proper slot as a #2 ...where he is most comfortable. That doesnt make him less valuable or not even a HOF plenty of #2's reside there ... but your excuse making is comical ...are you practicing for next week? :rollin

As for KAreem only the dumbest of Laker fan would make a case for him in this troll thread. KAreem is arguably a GOAT and no matter what your OP premise was takes a hot steaming dump on Timmy, Shaq, Pau or pretty much any big man you want to throw in. He won in HS, college and for two pro teams. Nuff said.

LOL Finals MVPs heck TOny Parker has one ...

As a supposed coach of team sports, I find it remarkable how you fail to understand the "win as a team, lose as a team" concept. Pau was not "0-12," the Grizzlies were. Kobe didn't "fail" to make the playoffs, the Lakers did.

If you're countertrolling and giving the haters who single out Kobe for his failures through 05-07 a taste of their own medicine, fair enough and well played. But I feel sorry for the kids you coach if you actually believe team success or lack thereof should be majority credited to the team's best player.

[lefty]

http://i.imgur.com/zQlOZ7j.jpg

[ambchang]

But that's where we differ missing the playoffs is an indictment, getting swept is an indictment they just vary. Missing the playoffs is a badge of shame Kobe carries. Pau carries the 0-12 ... I dont discrimnate. What kills me is you claim to be in love with win shares etc. But 0 for 12 ...is 0 for 12 you make excuses, qualifiers all the rest but this one is very simple even a gorilla should be able to understand ... if you have 12 chances and you dont win once that is a failure. Doesnt matter if the competion was difficult or what the expectations were. Im a Cobowys fan Tony Romo has had a bad line and a porous defense ... are those factors for his one playoff win? Sho nuff. But until he wins more games, facts remain he is 1-3 in playoff games. Football is even MORE of a team sport than basketball. But you are what your record says you are. Pau changed it from 2008-2010. But what changed ... he was always a skilled player was he not? He got a better coach and a STAR a #1 to put him in the proper slot as a #2 ...where he is most comfortable. That doesnt make him less valuable or not even a HOF plenty of #2's reside there ... but your excuse making is comical ...are you practicing for next week? :rollin

As for KAreem only the dumbest of Laker fan would make a case for him in this troll thread. KAreem is arguably a GOAT and no matter what your OP premise was takes a hot steaming dump on Timmy, Shaq, Pau or pretty much any big man you want to throw in. He won in HS, college and for two pro teams. Nuff said.

LOL Finals MVPs heck TOny Parker has one ...

Ahhh.. but Parker only won 1 out of 4 possible FMVP, which means that it was more of a situational reason than because he was dominant. These things happens, like how Andrew Toney always killed the Celtics, or how Vin Baker for some reason always played well against David Robinson. Parker played well against Boobie Gibson.

As for KAJ, that's the area where I am struggling with, the memory of him being dominant is still etched in my brain. However, he "only" won a championship with some of the top PGs in the history of the league, and only won 2 out of 6 possible FMVP. You can argue 80 was an aberration because he was injured for the final game, and he was dominant throughout the entire playoffs up to that point, and you can argue 87 and 88 doesn't really count, because KAJ was way over the hill at that point, but fact remains he still won 2 out of 6 FMVP. To top it off, he missed the playoffs during his prime, twice. Once was due to injuries, and the other time was because of the weird NBA divisional crap that was since changed, but he still missed two playoffs during his prime. Which, to me, are huge marks against his legacy. I used to think he was the GOAT, even over MJ, but I am now reconsidering it.

In terms of the Pau argument, I am afraid you had number of wins and winshares mixed up. WS deals with how many wins a player is responsible for on his own team. The beautiful thing is, over a short series, there are many players who have a negative WS. Also, over a series, a player can have a huge dip in WS due to match ups and not. Pau, from 04 to 06, had WS of 8.1, 6.8 (injured, he had WS/48 similar to 06), and 12.0. These are very respectable numbers for someone who's supposed to be thrown under the bus. In fact, your hero had WS of 8.1, 15.3, and 13.0. Sure they are better than MVPau's, but we sans the Pau injured year, they are very close, and we are talking the absolute peak of Kobe's prime here. I have no problems saying Kobe > Pau from 04 to 07, none at all, because we saw the games, and the numbers reflected that, but it's not by a margin as large as Kobe fans indicated. In fact, in 2005, if Pau wasn't injured, he would have a significantly higher WS than Kobe, which is also known as the year Kobe missed the playoffs.

I also agree with what mids said, blaming the losses and playoffs on one single player is a horrible practice, but we know that Kobe is not good enough to haul a team to average with his presence during his absolute prime, but Pau was able to do that when he hasn't hit his prime yet.

[Killakobe81]

As a supposed coach of team sports, I find it remarkable how you fail to understand the "win as a team, lose as a team" concept. Pau was not "0-12," the Grizzlies were. Kobe didn't "fail" to make the playoffs, the Lakers did.

If you're countertrolling and giving the haters who single out Kobe for his failures through 05-07 a taste of their own medicine, fair enough and well played. But I feel sorry for the kids you coach if you actually believe team success or lack thereof should be majority credited to the team's best player.

Never said it was solely. But if you are the best player you get the lions share of the accolades and at close to and not equal parts of the blame. Magic had already won twice before plus once in college and that did not stop the Tragic Johnson talk ... Kareem struggled some, Worthy's pass was stolen Scott inconsistent but who got the most blame? Magic..That is the sports era I grew up in when people questioned great players such as Marino, Elway, Steve Young and MJ himself harshly until they rang. Or retired none of that they played in a stacked era bullshit or ..I used to defend Dan as a child but later learned

[Killakobe81]

Ahhh.. but Parker only won 1 out of 4 possible FMVP, which means that it was more of a situational reason than because he was dominant. These things happens, like how Andrew Toney always killed the Celtics, or how Vin Baker for some reason always played well against David Robinson. Parker played well against Boobie Gibson.

As for KAJ, that's the area where I am struggling with, the memory of him being dominant is still etched in my brain. However, he "only" won a championship with some of the top PGs in the history of the league, and only won 2 out of 6 possible FMVP. You can argue 80 was an aberration because he was injured for the final game, and he was dominant throughout the entire playoffs up to that point, and you can argue 87 and 88 doesn't really count, because KAJ was way over the hill at that point, but fact remains he still won 2 out of 6 FMVP. To top it off, he missed the playoffs during his prime, twice. Once was due to injuries, and the other time was because of the weird NBA divisional crap that was since changed, but he still missed two playoffs during his prime. Which, to me, are huge marks against his legacy. I used to think he was the GOAT, even over MJ, but I am now reconsidering it.

In terms of the Pau argument, I am afraid you had number of wins and winshares mixed up. WS deals with how many wins a player is responsible for on his own team. The beautiful thing is, over a short series, there are many players who have a negative WS. Also, over a series, a player can have a huge dip in WS due to match ups and not. Pau, from 04 to 06, had WS of 8.1, 6.8 (injured, he had WS/48 similar to 06), and 12.0. These are very respectable numbers for someone who's supposed to be thrown under the bus. In fact, your hero had WS of 8.1, 15.3, and 13.0. Sure they are better than MVPau's, but we sans the Pau injured year, they are very close, and we are talking the absolute peak of Kobe's prime here. I have no problems saying Kobe > Pau from 04 to 07, none at all, because we saw the games, and the numbers reflected that, but it not by a margin as large as Kobe fans indicated. In fact, in 2005, if Pau wasn't injurd, he would have a significantly higher WS than Kobe, which is also known as the year Kobe missed the playoffs.

I also agree with what mids said, blaming the losses and playoffs on one single player is a horrible practice, but we know that Kobe is not good enough to haul a team to average with his presence during his absolute prime, but Pau was able to do that when he hasn't hit his prime yet.

I wasn't confusing I don't give a shit about winshares tbh

See there you go with qualifying shit Kareem was a 1st 2nd or 4third option on 6 title teams. He won with different coaches and different support players. Kobe had same coach but also won with different bigs Pau is in question Kobe is not.

[ambchang]

I wasn't confusing I don't give a shit about winshares tbh

See there you go with qualifying shit Kareem was a 1st 2nd or 4third option on 6 title teams. He won with different coaches and different support players. Kobe had same coach but also won with different bigs Pau is in question Kobe is not.

That's why I am starting to second guess my take on KAJ, I may have overrated him throughout his career. Also, it's not playing with a different player, it's playing with a different system and philosophy. KAJ played with the Big O and Magic, two of the greatest PGs the league has ever seen, both top 10 players (top 15 for sure). Was it that different playing with Magic as it was with the Big O? As for Kobe, he had the most dominant frontline in the league. If you put him on the 04 Pistons in place of Rip Hamilton, the Pistons may have still won if Kobe doesn't destroy their chemistry, but the team won because of the dominant frontlines, not because of Kobe.

As for WS, you apparent DO give a shit about it, because say the main player on the winning team gets all the accolades, and that is saying that a main player helps a championship wins, which is another way of looking at WS. The funny part is, Gasol led the Lakers in WS, and was responsible for both of the championships more (though only slightly more) than Kobe.

[midnightpulp]

Never said it was solely. But if you are the best player you get the lions share of the accolades and at close to and not equal parts of the blame. Magic had already won twice before plus once in college and that did not stop the Tragic Johnson talk ... Kareem struggled some, Worthy's pass was stolen Scott inconsistent but who got the most blame? Magic..That is the sports era I grew up in when people questioned great players such as Marino, Elway, Steve Young and MJ himself harshly until they rang. Or retired none of that they played in a stacked era bullshit or ..I used to defend Dan as a child but later learned

That's a media invention. "Magic falls short against Celtics" is a much sexier headline than "Lakers bench struggled in Finals."

However, the star player is definitely the most important "cog" in the machine, but he's still a cog, nonetheless. Just from a simple statistical standpoint, a star player is never more than 50% of the equation. Teams typically average around 100 points per game. A star player averages around 30. Teams typically average around 40 rebounds per game. A star bigman averages around 11-13. And so on.

Win shares attempt to quantify how many wins a player adds. For the sake of the argument, let's pretend the metric is accurate. Lebron James has a 19 mark this year, meaning without him the Heat would be 19 wins worse. The Heat have won 66 games this year. You do the math.

Sure, without Lebron James the Heat are a second round exit, but without them (specifically Wade and Bosh), Lebron doesn't win, either. As we saw in Cleveland.

[Killakobe81]

That's a media invention. "Magic falls short against Celtics" is a much sexier headline than "Lakers bench struggled in Finals."

However, the star player is definitely the most important "cog" in the machine, but he's still a cog, nonetheless. Just from a simple statistical standpoint, a star player is never more than 50% of the equation. Teams typically average around 100 points per game. A star player averages around 30. Teams typically average around 40 rebounds per game. A star bigman averages around 11-13. And so on.
Win shares attempt to quantify how many wins a player adds. For the sake of the argument, let's pretend the metric is accurate. Lebron James has a 19 mark this year, meaning without him the Heat would be 19 wins worse. The Heat have won 66 games this year. You do the math.

Sure, without Lebron James the Heat are a second round exit, but without them (specifically Wade and Bosh), Lebron doesn't win, either. As we saw in Cleveland.

1. Media or not Magic felt it and came out in 1985 to redeem himself. IF he were to console himself with winshares or insuliate himself with excuses like Amb gives PAu ...maybe he does not win.
2. Sure star players are important cogs but there is a price, a responsibilty/accountability that you have as the best player. I used to teach my better PG's that all the time. It is one of the most valid criticisms of Kobe ...(besides shot selection) IS that just because you can score easier than everyone else does not mean it is ALWAYS in your (team's) best interest to take that approach. I dont play Pyschologist but Kobe has battled against that impulse his whole career where he feels his shot even when the fo cus on defense is better than someone elses ..
3. Stats like winshares are horsecrap to a degree ... because using Lebron as an example no way they lose 19 more games. Heat have won games with 2 or 3 of their best players missing. But you could argue the things he does like making a hockey assist pass or drawing double or triple teams when he DOES play have such a HUGE impact on winning games and spreading a positive vibe on that team the he impacts that team even when he does not play

But again using your examples I dont need win shares to tell me any of that. Lebron is amazing especially last playoffs but without key contributions from Battier, Wade, Bosh to even Miller and Chalmers OKC has a legit shot at an upset or they lose to the Celts. Stats alone will show that those guys hit key buckets but without watching the game and seeing the momentum changes etc ...you lose some of that. But who got most of the blame in 2011 for their loss? Who got most of the praise in 2012 and rightfully so? Doesnt have to be THAT complicated. My problem with any stat they are ALMOST ALWAYS used as a weapon to argue what you already believe. People juke, cherry-pick stats just like non stat guys do when they argue thier side.

As for Amb Shaq was dominant, Pau, Bynum and Lamar effective and pretty efficient. But you confuse me when you give love to a guy like Moses (dominant) or the Celts front-line also dominant) but call a front-line with undersized, injury-prone or skinny front court bigss (Lamar Drew and PAu) dominat. Sure they were one of the better ones in a watered down era for big men but dominant? Nicca, please!! aS we discussed a few weeks back David RObinson much less KAreem would of dominated any of the two best bigs you can find of this era by themselves.

SO I get the deconstructing of Kobe ...your stats support your case ...whatever. I also dont need to tear down Pau, Drew Odom or even Shaq. All were all-stars at least and Shaq one of the most physical dominant players I have ever seen. But when a "dominant" big cant lead a playoff team to one win in 3 straight years you are NOT dominant. Lamar led a Heat team (Wade's rooke year IIRC) to ONE playoff win. All that filibustering still sounds like excuse making to me ...Pau very good, far from dominant.

But he can make a strong case tonight ...

[Thread]

1. Media or not Magic felt it and came out in 1985 to redeem himself. IF he were to console himself with winshares or insuliate himself with excuses like Amb gives PAu ...maybe he does not win.
...

Right. He'd be hiding under the covers with Wilt, West, Baylor, Worthy, et al. & we'd be under there with them instead of here raisin' Hell & checkin' assholes.

& furthermore, if Magic hadn't set that compass for future generations we'd a been forced to take cover under the covers in June '10. But, Kobe had Magic's template and executed it. Ipso facto:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

[midnightpulp]

Right. He'd be hiding under the covers with Wilt, West, Baylor, Worthy, et al. & we'd be under there with them instead of here raisin' Hell & checkin' assholes.

& furthermore, if Magic hadn't set that compass for future generations we'd a been forced to take cover under the covers in June '10. But, Kobe had Magic's template and executed it. Ipso facto:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Duncan also followed the arrow on that compass after Jackson tried to send him cowering under the covers with the asterisk talk. Media was on him. Pop was befuddled. And the Lakers were toting 'em. The count was 3>1, and it looked like that gap would remain eternal. You were probably over there on AZ central paying us no mind. We were nothing. An afterthought.

Then Aught 3 came around. Duncan followed the compass, let it lead him right outta the darkness and into the bright lights of a Hollywood spring. 37 and 16 later, the 3 peat was vanquished. Soon after, Daddy was packing for Miami beach, Kobe was in Colorado, and Phil Jackson was writing books. Just like that.

[Thread]

Duncan also followed the arrow on that compass after Jackson tried to send him cowering under the covers with the asterisk talk. Media was on him. Pop was befuddled. And the Lakers were toting 'em. The count was 3>1, and it looked like that gap would remain eternal. You were probably over there on AZ central paying us no mind. We were nothing. An afterthought.

Then Aught 3 came around. Duncan followed the compass, let it lead him right outta the darkness and into the bright lights of a Hollywood spring. 37 and 16 later, the 3 peat was vanquished. Soon after, Daddy was packing for Miami beach, Kobe was in Colorado, and Phil Jackson was writing books. Just like that.

I've been here what,,,since that that little squirt for Orlando missed that bunny over Kobe in '09? This is the first time you've ever cited such meandering & verbiage. Of course, it's completely marinated in my prose. I wrote the fuckin' book on such matters so I take it as a compliment. But, it's coming from your mouth and not your head or heart, Midst. You haven't got a trail of tears like I have. It's kind of sad, but, it true. And it's only sad because I came thru it and out the other side into the light. You're spick & span. You've never had anyone 14 inches up your ass for 25 years. Be grateful for that and at the same time, lament it.

[midnightpulp]

I've been here what,,,since that that little squirt for Orlando missed that bunny over Kobe in '09? This is the first time you've ever cited such meandering & verbiage. Of course, it's completely marinated in my prose. I wrote the fuckin' book on such matters so I take it as a compliment. But, it's coming from your mouth and not your head or heart, Midst. You haven't got a trail of tears like I have. It's kind of sad, but, it true. And it's only sad because I came thru it and out the other side into the light. You're spick & span. You've never had anyone 14 inches up your ass for 25 years. Be grateful for that and at the same time, lament it.

I know. Don't you remember me citing that you're entitled? You're entitled to the count. To the bragging. To the rolling of barrels. The Lakers were the Boston Red Sox of the NBA to the Celtics Yankees until '85, and you endured those failures since the Lakers came out to the Coast. West's win over NY was a blip on the radar. Flash in the pan. And soon it was back to the same-old-same-old. Celtics winning. Lakers trying to find their ass. Older Lakers fans know heartbreak.

But these young guys who came around when the gettin' was good (kool, et al), after the coin landed heads that brought Magic, their trail of tears are as dry as the Mojave.

And they ain't fuckin' entitled. No way.

[Thread]

I know. Don't you remember me citing that you're entitled? You're entitled to the count. To the bragging. To the rolling of barrels. The Lakers were the Boston Red Sox of the NBA to the Celtics Yankees until '85, and you endured those failures since the Lakers came out to the Coast. West's win over NY was a blip on the radar. Flash in the pan. And soon it was back to the same-old-same-old. Celtics winning. Lakers trying to find their ass. Older Lakers fans know heartbreak.

But these young guys who came around when the gettin' was good (kool, et al), after the coin landed heads that brought Magic, their trail of tears are as dry as the Mojave.

And they ain't fuckin' entitled. No way.

You have to grandfather them in, Midst. Same thing with your people, your johnny come lately's. I don't judge or grudge fandom's. It's too precious. There is some junk in my trunk from your heritage. I still see James Silas in the newspaper box scores. I still see Tarkanian kneeling courtside, bringing Sweet Pea into the NBA in direct repudiation of the governing powers. I still see Bob Hill, a handsome man I wanted to look like so badly. I remember The Whopper.

Let 'em go, Midst.

[midnightpulp]

You have to grandfather them in, Midst. Same thing with your people, your johnny come lately's. I don't judge or grudge fandom's. It's too precious. There is some junk in my trunk from your heritage. I still see James Silas in the newspaper box scores. I still see Tarkanian kneeling courtside, bringing Sweet Pea into the NBA in direct repudiation of the governing powers. I still see Bob Hill, a handsome man I wanted to look like so badly. I remember The Whopper.

Let 'em go, Midst.

Fair enough.

[Thread]

Fair enough.

Midst, am I going to be in the Charter 16 tonite, or not? Give it to me straight. Por favor.

[midnightpulp]

Midst, am I going to be in the Charter 16 tonite, or not? Give it to me straight. Por favor.

Yes you will. Babby won't get that pick and you can have a good night's sleep, which I take it you haven't had in months.

[midnightpulp]

Midst, am I going to be in the Charter 16 tonite, or not? Give it to me straight. Por favor.

Yes you will. Babby won't get that pick and you can have a good night's sleep, which I take it you haven't had in months.

[Killakobe81]

Mid channeling his "inner" Cully ...

Imitation the sincerest form of ...

[ambchang]

1. Media or not Magic felt it and came out in 1985 to redeem himself. IF he were to console himself with winshares or insuliate himself with excuses like Amb gives PAu ...maybe he does not win.

I doubt it, and I have absolutely no idea how you can somehow allude to Magic willing the Lakers to build a great team. He didn't do it. He did his share, of course, he led the Lakers as well in 85, but to say that he somehow felt it and came out in 1985 to redeem himself is beyond ridiculous. How does a player will the franchise to draft Worthy #1? How does a player will a franchise to get guys like Cooper, McAdoo and Scott? The player did not do it, management did.


2. Sure star players are important cogs but there is a price, a responsibilty/accountability that you have as the best player. I used to teach my better PG's that all the time. It is one of the most valid criticisms of Kobe ...(besides shot selection) IS that just because you can score easier than everyone else does not mean it is ALWAYS in your (team's) best interest to take that approach. I dont play Pyschologist but Kobe has battled against that impulse his whole career where he feels his shot even when the fo cus on defense is better than someone elses ..

I doubt that as well. Kobe has been notorious for making questionable decisions on shots.


3. Stats like winshares are horsecrap to a degree ... because using Lebron as an example no way they lose 19 more games. Heat have won games with 2 or 3 of their best players missing. But you could argue the things he does like making a hockey assist pass or drawing double or triple teams when he DOES play have such a HUGE impact on winning games and spreading a positive vibe on that team the he impacts that team even when he does not play

I would actually like to clarify, a winshare of 19 games doesn't mean the Heat will win 47 games instead of 66 without James. The team dynamic would change, and the system will likely be different. What the figure of 19 said though, is that of the 66 Heat wins, James was responsible for about 19 of them, that's it.


But again using your examples I dont need win shares to tell me any of that. Lebron is amazing especially last playoffs but without key contributions from Battier, Wade, Bosh to even Miller and Chalmers OKC has a legit shot at an upset or they lose to the Celts. Stats alone will show that those guys hit key buckets but without watching the game and seeing the momentum changes etc ...you lose some of that. But who got most of the blame in 2011 for their loss? Who got most of the praise in 2012 and rightfully so? Doesnt have to be THAT complicated. My problem with any stat they are ALMOST ALWAYS used as a weapon to argue what you already believe. People juke, cherry-pick stats just like non stat guys do when they argue thier side. [/quote[

It's because James had a 3 game lead on Wade in WS in 2011, but absolutely disappeared in the finals. That's why he got the blame.

In 2012, James almost doubled Wade (the clear #2) in WS, in both the regular season and the playoffs for the title win, that's why should get, the most credit.

[QUOTE=Killakobe81;6486690]As for Amb Shaq was dominant, Pau, Bynum and Lamar effective and pretty efficient. But you confuse me when you give love to a guy like Moses (dominant) or the Celts front-line also dominant) but call a front-line with undersized, injury-prone or skinny front court bigss (Lamar Drew and PAu) dominat. Sure they were one of the better ones in a watered down era for big men but dominant? Nicca, please!! aS we discussed a few weeks back David RObinson much less KAreem would of dominated any of the two best bigs you can find of this era by themselves.

Oh, no doubt, and this is where competition and your team makeup comes into play. Will the 09 and 10 Lakers win a championship in the 80s and 90s? Highly unlikely, and it's precisely because their frontline will not be as comparatively dominant. Read it again, the 09 and 10 Lakers won because of their frontline. Their frontline was far and away better than any other team's in the same era.


SO I get the deconstructing of Kobe ...your stats support your case ...whatever. I also dont need to tear down Pau, Drew Odom or even Shaq. All were all-stars at least and Shaq one of the most physical dominant players I have ever seen. But when a "dominant" big cant lead a playoff team to one win in 3 straight years you are NOT dominant. Lamar led a Heat team (Wade's rooke year IIRC) to ONE playoff win. All that filibustering still sounds like excuse making to me ...Pau very good, far from dominant.

But he can make a strong case tonight ...

So what does it speak to a supposed #2 SG in NBA history not being able to lead his team past the 1st round twice, and missing the playoffs entirely one year? Hakeem's team wasn't that good in the late 80s, but so what? He was still dominant. Shaq was swept multiple times in his career, but he was still dominant. It has everything to do with matchups and your team.

[Leetonidas]

gotta disagree prime Marion was a beast and definitely a better player than Lamar Odom at any point in his career

[Killakobe81]

1. Magic didnt get blamed? See another issue I have is when outsiders try and tell me about my team that I have followed for most of my 30 plus years ... Magic was killed nationally and locally Look here:

During the NBA finals last spring, as the Boston Celtics first tormented Johnson and finally humiliated him, the newly purchased house in Bel Air was Magic's castle. No furniture had yet arrived, so he would often sit for hours in empty rooms, alone in the dark and riven with doubt, trying to figure out how his life had suddenly gone so dreadfully wrong.After the Lakers lost the championship to the Celtics in seven games, Johnson found his reputation in such disrepair that L.A. fans were discussing his chances of making a "comeback" this season. "People say he has to come back this year and prove himself all over again, which is a joke," says Lakers coach Pat Riley. "When you play in the ultimate game, there's winning and there's misery. For us it was misery."

Magic had failed in a way that seemed to diminish him so conspicuously that earlier this season even the Celtics' Kevin McHale referred to him as "Tragic Johnson." It counted for little that against Boston Johnson had set a record for assists in a playoff series with 95—averaging 15.2 over the last five games, including a championship series-record 21 in Game 3—and had averaged 18 points a game. The Lakers had kicked away chances to sweep the series with costly mistakes in Games 2 and 4, then bungled the job again at the end of Game 7. "We made five mistakes that cost us the series," Johnson says, "and I contributed to three of them."
The first mistake came with the score tied at the end of regulation in Game 2, when he dribbled the clock down until there was no time to get off a shot. Riley claims Johnson followed his instructions. "The other players never did anything to help him," he says. "They stood out on the perimeter and didn't get open. Kareem [Abdul-Jabbar] moved with 12 seconds left, which meant he was open too early. Magic got blamed." Boston won, 124-121 in overtime.

Whatever hurt Johnson felt then was only to intensify as the summer went on. He was stunned at the way he was carved up by the press that had once doted on him. He was particularly wounded by the suggestions that, with the championship at stake, he had choked. "I sat back when it was over," Johnson says, "and I thought, 'Man, did we just lose one of the great playoff series of all time, or didn't we?' This was one of the greatest in history. Yet all you read was how bad I was." A headline that appeared on a column in The Los Angeles Times asked EARVIN, WHAT HAPPENED TO MAGIC? A month later, a columnist for The Los Angeles Herald-Examiner referred to Johnson as "the tarnished superstar" and "the goat of the series," and pointed out that with the world watching him, and "right there against his arch rival, Larry Bird, he failed.""Those wounds from last June stayed open all summer," says Riley. "Now the misery has subsided, but it never leaves your mind completely. Magic is very sensitive to what people think about him, and in his own mind I think he heard those questions over and over again to the point where he began to rationalize and say, 'Maybe I do have to concentrate more.' I think the whole experience has made him grow up in a lot of ways."



That was the NBA I grew up with no excuses no looking for winshares to explain how much he did ... he lost. PERIOD.

From SI 1985 CLick here for more (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/)

2. Wait, what?! I said Kobe's shot selection and willingness to take a tough shot and think it is better than his team-mates is something he has battled his whole career ... so do you disagree with that? (by battle I mean struggle with... but hey you the one that tries to play Dr.Phil) If so, just say agreed. Remember the jedi-mind trick only works on the weak minded.

3. Lebron only responsible for 19 of them?! Cuz winshares says so? LMAO and GTFO you make winshares sound worse the more you explain it ...

4. You can try and spin it now but you used the word dominant, maybe you meant they just won because of the front-line ... but YOU Said Kobe could not win without a DOMINANT front-line. Tell me smart guy if Kobe is a ball-hog, taking shots aways from the DOMINANT front-line ...how can they be dominant?

5. Like I said I dont have to tell you "what it means" ...cuz I dont care ...that is what you do. He failed in 2004-2008. He failed with "dominant" Pau and with "dominant" Lamar Odom LMAO ...but he won with those same non dominant guys as well as with Shaq. PEriod. You can look for hidden deeper meanings but those are the facts.


Just like ...

Boiled down ...

5>4 ...

[Killakobe81]

Cully I see you in here boy ... this boy AMb acting like he dont know the history ... he old school trying to be new school with the excuse making winshares crap and harping on team-mates and matchups.

And my mistake Amb you said "imposing" not dominant it was FkLA that used "dominant" i stand corrected but not sure either is accurate though. Efffective yes very effective ...

DOMINANT :lol
IMPOSING :rollin


Who ever looked at Pau or Odom and thought IMPOSING?! :lmao

[Thread]

The large post second above...^Good stuff, Killa. Makes it almost palpable. I do not know how that man came all the way back. It's unfathomable. He loved the quest. He didn't fear it as West and Wilt had.

[Thread]

It scares me anew reading it like that. The Celtics were trying mightily to "assassinate" Magic. They knew, they were wise enough to recognize a messiah who could lead us past them. Those fuckers knew and were ruthlessly trying to stop it.

And Magic knew too. You wonder if the ingratiating grin was to bring them in closer, to get them to let their guard down, to take the edge off their hate & panic down a notch so he (Magic) could get inside and finish it.

It's a great story, Killa. It only gets better as the decades unfold.

[Killakobe81]

The large post second above...^Good stuff, Killa. Makes it almost palpable. I do not know how that man came all the way back. It's unfathomable. He loved the quest. He didn't fear it as West and Wilt had.

I was just a youngster but that loss hurt. My sports hero had failed against our most bitter rival giving them #15 at OUR expense ...

[ambchang]

Not sure where anybody said Magic was hung out to dry by the media. It sure did happen, they called for his head after Westhead was fired, and then when he choked away the 1984 Finals, but to say that the reason he won the 1985 championship was because he was trying to prove himself is foolish. He won the championship because the Lakers were good enough. The idea that Lakers wouldn't have won the 1985 title, or Magic would somehow put in less effort to win the 1985 title, if he wasn't skewed by the media is ridiculous and an insult to Magic himself.

[ambchang]

And the Lakers front line in 09 10 wasn't dominant in the historical sense, but compared to other teams in 09 10, you can bet your Kobe memorabilia that it was.

[Killakobe81]

It scares me anew reading it like that. The Celtics were trying mightily to "assassinate" Magic. They knew, they were wise enough to recognize a messiah who could lead us past them. Those fuckers knew and were ruthlessly trying to stop it.

And Magic knew too. You wonder if the ingratiating grin was to bring them in closer, to get them to let their guard down, to take the edge off their hate & panic down a notch so he (Magic) could get inside and finish it.

It's a great story, Killa. It only gets better as the decades unfold.

No doubt and I miss that kind of coverage. I dont subscribe to SI anymore ... because their writers are all influenced by these advance metrics and cold analyticals when watching the game (for the most part) they don't write with soul anymore most of those hacks are glorified bloggers. Those guys grasped the sense of the moment and understood the crucifixtion and the ressurrection that all the greats faced; from Kareem to Dr.J to MAgic, Bird and MJ to now Kobe and Lebron the losses are part of the story that builds character in the truly great ... we hve clutch and chokes etc. But everyone wants to explain it away with numbers and saying it is a team sport ...which it is but you have an alpha and carries that cross through the good and bad.

Many Spur fans here only want to shower Duncan with praise for the wins and Nail Kobe for the losses it doesnt work that way ...

[Killakobe81]

Not sure where anybody said Magic was hung out to dry by the media. It sure did happen, they called for his head after Westhead was fired, and then when he choked away the 1984 Finals, but to say that the reason he won the 1985 championship was because he was trying to prove himself is foolish. He won the championship because the Lakers were good enough. The idea that Lakers wouldn't have won the 1985 title, or Magic would somehow put in less effort to win the 1985 title, if he wasn't skewed by the media is ridiculous and an insult to Magic himself.

Read the article it pretty much says so or is implied by him and the writer. I have read all his books including the Business one, believe me it had a part.. Listen to Mj's HOF speech. if you dont think that stuff drives elite players you dont get what makes them tick, Amb and it's a shame. Sure it is in them but to get to the highest level you need that extra fuel ...

[Thread]

No doubt and I miss that kind of coverage. I dont subscribe to SI anymore ... because their writers are all influenced by these advance metrics and cold analyticals when watching the game (for the most part) they don't write with soul anymore most of those hacks are glorified bloggers. Those guys grasped the sense of the moment and understood the crucifixtion and the ressurrection that all the greats faced; from Kareem to Dr.J to MAgic, Bird and MJ to now Kobe and Lebron the losses are part of the story that builds character in the truly great ... we hve clutch and chokes etc. But everyone wants to explain it away with numbers and saying it is a team sport ...which it is but you have an alpha and carries that cross through the good and bad.

Many Spur fans here only want to shower Duncan with praise for the wins and Nail Kobe for the losses it doesnt work that way ...

It wasn't a team sport before '85. As you stated the crucifixtion of Magic was attempted by the Celtics in association with Media. After '85 and the confirmation in '87 Media had to give up the ghost and get in bed with Magic. They had nary other choice. The Celtics were kaput, instead of them murdering Magic, he had turned the gun on them and put them down. As the numbers quaked and grew thru the years the need to open another front by Media became necessary. Can't stop it, but, I won't aspire to it. Uh, uh. I was there when that was all there was. And that's how I'm goin' out. We started that way. And we're endin' that way.

[ambchang]

Read the article it pretty much says so or is implied by him and the writer. I have read all his books including the Business one, believe me it had a part.. Listen to Mj's HOF speech. if you dont think that stuff drives elite players you dont get what makes them tick, Amb and it's a shame. Sure it is in them but to get to the highest level you need that extra fuel ...

They sell stories, that's why. Writers like to fish these athletes for a story, and they wrote them that why. Why did Magic win in 87 and 88 then? He had his revenge. In fact, Magic played even better in 87, he officially got his team, what was his incentive?

MJ is just a freak who like to rub it in. If it wasn't for one humiliation, he would have created another one to push himself. Same with Magic, he would have found the fuel one way or another.

[Thread]

They sell stories, that's why. Writers like to fish these athletes for a story, and they wrote them that why. Why did Magic win in 87 and 88 then? He had his revenge. In fact, Magic played even better in 87, he officially got his team, what was his incentive?

MJ is just a freak who like to rub it in. If it wasn't for one humiliation, he would have created another one to push himself. Same with Magic, he would have found the fuel one way or another.

That's easy. It's over. You/we know how it turned out.

There was no story if Magic won. Only if he lost. Then the story goes on. That's why Stockton & Heinsohn were tight lipped & flat earred afterward on 9 June 1985. You'd a thought somebody died/just not Magic. They (Media/Celtics) were all in once again '87. Boston had rang in '86. Last chance. So, this time instead of going after Magic, they cut out Worthy and tried to "assassinate" him. Magic, instead of holding his hand and bailing him out, moved away and let Worthy wrestle the gun away from the Celtics and shoot them to death in Los Angeles.

[Killakobe81]

That's easy. It's over. You/we know how it turned out.

There was no story if Magic won. Only if he lost. Then the story goes on. That's why Stockton & Heinsohn were tight lipped & flat earred afterward on 9 June 1985. You'd a thought somebody died/just not Magic. They (Media/Celtics) were all in once again '87. Boston had rang in '86. Last chance. So, this time instead of going after Magic, they cut out Worthy and tried to "assassinate" him. Magic, instead of holding his hand and bailing him out, moved away and let Worthy wrestle the gun away from the Celtics and shoot them to death in Los Angeles.

Amen Cully.
Again Im not saying those guys don't win ANY titles without that crucifixition but look at the NBA since 1980:

1. Lakers beat the Sixers TWICE (80 & 82) in the Finals before Moses brought DR.J to the Promised land and they swept us in 1983
2. Celts beat us in 84 which spaked Magic's revenge in '85 which sparked Bird's last great year in 1986
3. Lakers and Celts beat on Pistons in the late 80's and Isiah paid them back in 89 & 90 fighting off MJ along the way ...
4. MJ made the whole world play for the Pistons disrespect ...
5. Shaq used the sweeps you spoke of earlier to help lead the Lakers back to glory ...
6. Dirk's 2006 helped him in 2011 no doubt about it sparking ...
7. Lebron to bury his demons
8. Kobe heard the whispers much like they are spoken here ... that he could not win without shaq ...it was the first words out of his mouth in 2009 ...

I could pull out all sort of articles to illustrate each and every one of these great players backing my point ... but Amb when you are stuck on a point you get dug in like a tick and it would be a waste of my time tbh ...you NEVER admit being wrong ...

[Killakobe81]

They sell stories, that's why. Writers like to fish these athletes for a story, and they wrote them that why. Why did Magic win in 87 and 88 then? He had his revenge. In fact, Magic played even better in 87, he officially got his team, what was his incentive?

MJ is just a freak who like to rub it in. If it wasn't for one humiliation, he would have created another one to push himself. Segos ame with Magic, he would have found the fuel one way or another.

86 Bird got 3 Magic needed 87 and 88 to get to 5 ... not very difficult to see ...agin read "courtship of Rivals" they BOTH speak of that drive some of it feuled by media ...was it in them? Of course. But your peers and the media covering your team calling you a choker saying you cant win, are finished or someone is better than you ALL of that fuels their egos... Mj infamously so ...but a common trait in MOST great players. What did Steve Young say as the clock ran down as watched his Niners finish off the Chargers? ... "the monkey is off my back". Never much cared for Young (hate the Niners) but he was so honest he heard the "we should of kept Joe talk", he knew Joe's shadow loomed and the local and national media was ready ...he delivered. Smart guy great player came from money but he was also fueled by his detractors.

[midnightpulp]

No doubt and I miss that kind of coverage. I dont subscribe to SI anymore ... because their writers are all influenced by these advance metrics and cold analyticals when watching the game (for the most part) they don't write with soul anymore most of those hacks are glorified bloggers. Those guys grasped the sense of the moment and understood the crucifixtion and the ressurrection that all the greats faced; from Kareem to Dr.J to MAgic, Bird and MJ to now Kobe and Lebron the losses are part of the story that builds character in the truly great ... we hve clutch and chokes etc. But everyone wants to explain it away with numbers and saying it is a team sport ...which it is but you have an alpha and carries that cross through the good and bad.

Many Spur fans here only want to shower Duncan with praise for the wins and Nail Kobe for the losses it doesnt work that way ...

It is a team sport. Just because the NBA "you grew up in" was covered by sports writers who extracted sensationalized storylines from individual success and failure, it doesn't change the essence of the game: 5 guys playing another 5 guys.

Wanna see what a team victory looks like? Revisit game 7 of the '10 Finals. Or Game 5 of our '05 battle with Detroit.

Without Kobe and Duncan's respective teams stepping up, their legacies could be quite different today. Kobe would be vilified as a "one-and-done" choker who couldn't beat the Celtics and only won in '09 because Garnett was injured. And Duncan (who missed crucial freethrows in that game, along with a game-winning gimmie putback in regulation) might've ended his ring count at two.

Two of the best players of all-time, arguably the two best since Jordan, shit the bed in two of the biggest games of their careers, but still wound up winning.

Now sit there and tell me with a straight face it ain't a team sport.

[Killakobe81]

It is a team sport. Just because the NBA "you grew up in" was covered by sports writers who extracted sensationalized storylines from individual success and failure, it doesn't change the essence of the game: 5 guys playing another 5 guys.

Wanna see what a team victory looks like? Revisit game 7 of the '10 Finals. Or Game 5 of our '05 battle with Detroit.

Without Kobe and Duncan's respective teams stepping up, their legacies could be quite different today. Kobe would be vilified as a "one-and-done" choker who couldn't beat the Celtics and only won in '09 because Garnett was injured. And Duncan (who missed crucial freethrows in that game, along with a game-winning gimmie putback in regulation) might've ended his ring count at two.

Two of the best players of all-time, arguably the two best since Jordan, shit the bed in two of the biggest games of their careers, but still wound up winning.

Now sit there and tell me with a straight face it ain't a team sport.

1. As you saw (or should of) I already Said that it was a team game ...why did you not highlight THAT part? Go back it's 5 characters after what you bolded but failed to include ...
2. I dont deny I enjoyed the old school narrative, Writers used to wax poetic but now it's all numbers and low level reporting ... but it still doesnt change the fact that the NBA is a star league always has always will be ... One star can impact a NBA game more than 1 player in almost any other sport except maybe hockey.
3. You did not have to stop with Duncan or Kobe ... Horry saved both multiple times. Paxson and Kerr saved MJ. Miller and Battier saved Lebron. That doesnt change the fact that the stars were still the primary reason those teams won.

[midnightpulp]

1. As you saw (or should of) I already Said that it was a team game ...why did you not highlight THAT part? Go back it's 5 characters after what you bolded but failed to be include ...
2. I dont deny I enjoyed the narrative ... but it still doesnt change the fact that the NBA is a star league always has always will be ... One star can impact a NBA game more than 1 player in almost any other sport except maybe hockey.
3. You did not have to stop with Duncan or Kobe ... Horry saved both multiple times. Paxson and Kerr saved MJ. Miller and Battier saved Lebron. That doesnt change the fact that the stars were still the primary reason those teams won.

But how can they be the "primary" reason when the whole is greater than them? Stars are the most important individual player, but not necessarily the most important piece, since 7 or 8 guys combined (his supporting cast) will always be able to contribute more than him.

I don't care how good you are. You're not more important than the entirety of your supporting cast. If they play badly, the star loses, every time (as we saw in '09 when Lebron had an all-time great series against the Magic but still lost the series). But the star can play badly, sometimes terribly so, and his team can still win.

Don't get me wrong. As I've said before, the star is the most valuable individual component, but isn't more valuable when measured against the sum total of the other parts in the machine.

[Killakobe81]

But how can they be the "primary" reason when the whole is greater than them? Stars are the most important individual player, but not necessarily the most important piece, since 7 or 8 guys combined (his supporting cast) will always be able to contribute more than him.

I don't care how good you are. You're not more important than the entirety of your supporting cast. If they play badly, the star loses, every time (as we saw in '09 when Lebron had an all-time great series against the Magic but still lost the series). But the star can play badly, sometimes terribly so, and his team can still win.

Don't get me wrong. As I've said before, the star is the most valuable individual component, but isn't more valuable when measured against the sum total of the other parts in the machine.

What you say makes sense in theory but stars no, SUPERSTARS win when they have great complementary pieces ...
Sure the team is greater than any one player but that star is what allows those complementary pieces to shine. Some allow their team-mates to thrive by taking away defensive attention and taking the big shots (kobe/MJ) ... some like Magic Bird and Lebron do some of that but also faclitate a great deal. Either way you build around the star and you find the right support players that is why they get the most money, fame and also the most criticism.

[midnightpulp]

What you say makes sense in theory but stars no, SUPERSTARS win when they have great complementary pieces ...
Sure the team is greater than any one player but that star is what allows those complementary pieces to shine. Some allow their team-mates to thrive by taking away defensive attention and taking the big shots (kobe/MJ) ... some like Magic Bird and Lebron do some of that but also faclitate a great deal. Either way you build around the star and you find the right support players that is why they get the most money, fame and also the most criticism.

Makes sense in reality, too.

No way was Magic more important than Kareem/Worthy combined. Or Bird moreso than McHale/Parish. Or Duncan than Manu/Parker/Bowen.

Sure, they made those guys better. But those guys made them better, as well.

[Killakobe81]

Makes sense in reality, too.

No way was Magic more important than Kareem/Worthy combined. Or Bird moreso than McHale/Parish. Or Duncan than Manu/Parker/Bowen.

Sure, they made those guys better. But those guys made them better, as well.

Sure I would take Worthy/Kareem over Magic ... But I take Magic over Scott/Rambis or Bird over Maxwell/Ainge

LOL great analogy 1 HOF over 2!!! What a difficult decision!!!

I would take Lebron over Wade and Bosh tbh though ... and Kobe over Pau/Lamar heck LAkers chose Kobe over a still impactful though no longer dominant Shaquille ...

[ambchang]

That's easy. It's over. You/we know how it turned out.

There was no story if Magic won. Only if he lost. Then the story goes on. That's why Stockton & Heinsohn were tight lipped & flat earred afterward on 9 June 1985. You'd a thought somebody died/just not Magic. They (Media/Celtics) were all in once again '87. Boston had rang in '86. Last chance. So, this time instead of going after Magic, they cut out Worthy and tried to "assassinate" him. Magic, instead of holding his hand and bailing him out, moved away and let Worthy wrestle the gun away from the Celtics and shoot them to death in Los Angeles.

Bullshit man. The Lakers and Magic was being stuffed down our throats throughout the entire mid to late 80s. The baby sky hook, the repeat promise, his 24 assists game, his clutchness, how Magic took over the lead role from Kareem, and all that. Even that 80's Game 6 was played non stop, over and over.

[ambchang]

Amen Cully.
Again Im not saying those guys don't win ANY titles without that crucifixition but look at the NBA since 1980:

1. Lakers beat the Sixers TWICE (80 & 82) in the Finals before Moses brought DR.J to the Promised land and they swept us in 1983 So management did something. What does that have to do with Moses?

2. Celts beat us in 84 which spaked Magic's revenge in '85 which sparked Bird's last great year in 1986 Bullshit, the Lakers and Celtics were as evenly matched as they come. Them trading championships is no surprise to anyone. Again, you make it sound like Magic winning in 85 has something to do with him losing in 84, and how Bird won in 86 had something to do with him losing in 85. It has nothing to do with it.

3. Lakers and Celts beat on Pistons in the late 80's and Isiah paid them back in 89 & 90 fighting off MJ along the way ... That's called aging. Kareem was pushing 40, and the Lakers weren't able to find a replacement center of that caliber. Hey, Magic was beat in 89, why didn't he will his team to victory in 90? They couldn't even go past the Blazers? Speaking of which, why didn't the Clyde will the Blazers to win in 90 and 91?

4. MJ made the whole world play for the Pistons disrespect ... Why didn't Ewing will the Knicks to victory? Why would Jordan have as much hunger after winning 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 championships? What was his drive?

5. Shaq used the sweeps you spoke of earlier to help lead the Lakers back to glory ... Give me a break, he used Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant. Shaq, during that 3-peat, took company time off for his in grown toe nail.

6. Dirk's 2006 helped him in 2011 no doubt about it sparking ... That sparking is called Tyson Chandler

7. Lebron to bury his demons He stopped choking and dominated. It's called growth.

8. Kobe heard the whispers much like they are spoken here ... that he could not win without shaq ...it was the first words out of his mouth in 2009 ... So he whined about trading away Bynum for Kidd, which turned out to be a great decision by management. He had no hand in getting Pau for peanuts. Also, was it why he shot 6-24 to will his team to victory in a game 7?

I could pull out all sort of articles to illustrate each and every one of these great players backing my point ... but Amb when you are stuck on a point you get dug in like a tick and it would be a waste of my time tbh ...you NEVER admit being wrong ...[/QUOTE]

These articles are made to sell stories. I can't believe after decades of watching the game, you haven't figured it out.

[ambchang]

86 Bird got 3 Magic needed 87 and 88 to get to 5 ... not very difficult to see ...agin read "courtship of Rivals" they BOTH speak of that drive some of it feuled by media ...was it in them? Of course. But your peers and the media covering your team calling you a choker saying you cant win, are finished or someone is better than you ALL of that fuels their egos... Mj infamously so ...but a common trait in MOST great players. What did Steve Young say as the clock ran down as watched his Niners finish off the Chargers? ... "the monkey is off my back". Never much cared for Young (hate the Niners) but he was so honest he heard the "we should of kept Joe talk", he knew Joe's shadow loomed and the local and national media was ready ...he delivered. Smart guy great player came from money but he was also fueled by his detractors.

Of course they look over their shoulder because that is the one team/person that has the best chance of stopping them from winning a championship year after year. Shaq gave the Kings a LOT of attention in the early 00's because they were a major threat, and the Kings, as a group was shafted big time in 2002, didn't get them no where, now did it?

Yes, all great players want to win, and they do anything they possibly can to win, but to say that they win because of that will is foolish. They win because they have better teams than their opposition. That's it. Stockton's got the will, Barkley's got the will, Ewing's got the will, every single one of these great players got the will to drive them to practice day after day, run suicide drills, got chewed out by the coach, got embarrassed on national media, etc ... but some of them just don't have the good fortune of being on a better team, or they don't have the ability to fill in for the team's shortfall.

[ambchang]

mids, I think that's why KK81 worships Kobe, and we don't, because we see a team, and he sees individuals.

[Thread]

Bullshit man. The Lakers and Magic was being stuffed down our throats throughout the entire mid to late 80s. The baby sky hook, the repeat promise, his 24 assists game, his clutchness, how Magic took over the lead role from Kareem, and all that. Even that 80's Game 6 was played non stop, over and over.


You're angry this morning.

[Killakobe81]

mids, I think that's why KK81 worships Kobe, and we don't, because we see a team, and he sees individuals.

I dont worship Kobe I respect the hell out him though.

Malone for example, had a great coach, solid team-mates a HOF PG and a HOF coach. Yet he did not win a title not even when MJ left. Sure I never thought his team was the best in the NBA ...but he had a huge part in why they made it as far as they did and a huge part in why they did not win a chip. I dont care what his winshares are ... I dont care that Hornacek or some other support player failed ...at the end of the day (as I have seen posted on here MANY times) he failed. He has been called a choker and all kinds of various things to prop Timmy by comparison ...none of that "well he wasnt expected to beat the Bulls or the Rockets or the Spurs" excuses you offer Pau or dont allow Kobe.

You act condescending and talk team because it suits your argument now ...but I see through the bull-shit. You push your anti-kobe agenda constantly in threads that have NOTHING to do with him.

YOu are the bizarro Kool-Aid Man tbh ... a better quality poster but at least he is funny sometimes. You just seemed obsessed tbh ... when Kobe is not the subject few here are better posters. But you need to get your head out of Kobe's ass ...he is done for the year ... the playoffs are here enjoy the game.

[ambchang]

I dont worship Kobe I respect the hell out him though.

Malone for example, had a great coach, solid team-mates a HOF PG and a HOF coach. Yet he did not win a title not even when MJ left. Sure I never thought his team was the best in the NBA ...but he had a huge part in why they made it as far as they did and a huge part in why they did not win a chip. I dont care what his winshares are ... I dont care that Hornacek or some other support player failed ...at the end of the day (as I have seen posted on here MANY times) he failed. He has been called a choker and all kinds of various things to prop Timmy by comparison ...none of that "well he wasnt expected to beat the Bulls or the Rockets or the Spurs" excuses you offer Pau or dont allow Kobe.

You act condescending and talk team because it suits your argument now ...but I see through the bull-shit. You push your anti-kobe agenda constantly in threads that have NOTHING to do with him.

YOu are the bizarro Kool-Aid Man tbh ... a better quality poster but at least he is funny sometimes. You just seemed obsessed tbh ... when Kobe is not the subject few here are better posters. But you need to get your head out of Kobe's ass ...he is done for the year ... the playoffs are here enjoy the game.

Malone didn't win at all not because he didn't want it enough, it's because he's not GOOD enough, he choked.

And lol about your comments on my agenda. I enjoy team ball, I love watching team ball, and that's why I am a Spurs fan, and have mad respect for the early to mid 00 Pistons. Despite the strong rivalry, I never dislike Nash or Nowitzki, because they played team ball, and I appreciate them as players for it. Funny thing is, I actually like Pau, who is a Laker, I disliked Shaq because the guy was a giant goofball and deserves at least half the blame for a dominant team breaking up, but he never shot his team out of championships.

Now Kobe, mad skills, but after almost two decades, he STILL couldn't figure out how to play team ball, and cost his heavily stacked teams at least two championships, and much more success in other seasons, but popular media and ignorant fans just ignored them all. And it's not like nothing was said about it, his coach wrote a book about it, Shaq talked about it, Pau alluded to it, Dwight openly talked about it in his first year with the team, and guess what? They were all dismissed, and the players were even ridiculed for it. I just couldn't understand this phenomenon, I don't.

Like SSSC said "I'm here to spit flames until this shit change".

[Killakobe81]

Malone didn't win at all not because he didn't want it enough, it's because he's not GOOD enough, he choked.

And lol about your comments on my agenda. I enjoy team ball, I love watching team ball, and that's why I am a Spurs fan, and have mad respect for the early to mid 00 Pistons. Despite the strong rivalry, I never dislike Nash or Nowitzki, because they played team ball, and I appreciate them as players for it. Funny thing is, I actually like Pau, who is a Laker, I disliked Shaq because the guy was a giant goofball and deserves at least half the blame for a dominant team breaking up, but he never shot his team out of championships.

Now Kobe, mad skills, but after almost two decades, he STILL couldn't figure out how to play team ball, and cost his heavily stacked teams at least two championships, and much more success in other seasons, but popular media and ignorant fans just ignored them all. And it's not like nothing was said about it, his coach wrote a book about it, Shaq talked about it, Pau alluded to it, Dwight openly talked about it in his first year with the team, and guess what? They were all dismissed, and the players were even ridiculed for it. I just couldn't understand this phenomenon, I don't.

Like SSSC said "I'm here to spit flames until this shit change".

Reggie Miller gets it. On The Playoff version of Open Court he says (paraphrasing) "Not winning a title is my greatest failure. I Was so close multiple conference finals, 1 NBA Finals ...sure those was great teams. But as the leader of that team the guy at the head of the table there is responisbilty that goes with the big contract, the endorsements to those other 11 guys looking back at you in the locker room counting on you. You get the accolades for hitting the big shots but with that comes responsibilty ...sure you face great teams but that is what you are paid to do when you are at the head of the table ...that is my greatest failure."

Sure it's a team game never said it wasnt. But great players lead teams ... and Im proud my boy Reggie a BRUIN, a Cali boy gets it. Sure he had the MJ excuse but he doesnt take it. No mention of his team not being good enough ... or saying he lost to MJ or Shaq. Reggie knows that in the end the star is responsible win or lose.

Chuck also says he suffered much like Marino or Elgin ...
Cwebb no surprise ... alluded to team-mates that did not take the game seriously but no mention of some of the game where he "shrank" in the clutch.

Outside of Chuck, Reggie is my favorite player that never rang ...

Note: Not saying one player wins or loses a game singularly, I get it is a team sport, was just speaking on the "responsibility" that a star has to a team ...Reggie spoke well on teh subject. But again he like me is old school ...

[Killakobe81]

Also shaq tells Brent Barry (in for Kenny smith) " I dont remember any of your playoff moments, no offense." LOL

[SupremeGuy]

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...Duncan: 2 healthy Achilles tendons

the tired old shitbag Kirby: 1

[ambchang]

Reggie Miller gets it. On The Playoff version of Open Court he says (paraphrasing) "Not winning a title is my greatest failure. I Was so close multiple conference finals, 1 NBA Finals ...sure those was great teams. But as the leader of that team the guy at the head of the table there is responisbilty that goes with the big contract, the endorsements to those other 11 guys looking back at you in the locker room counting on you. You get the accolades for hitting the big shots but with that comes responsibilty ...sure you face great teams but that is what you are paid to do when you are at the head of the table ...that is my greatest failure."

Sure it's a team game never said it wasnt. But great players lead teams ... and Im proud my boy Reggie a BRUIN, a Cali boy gets it. Sure he had the MJ excuse but he doesnt take it. No mention of his team not being good enough ... or saying he lost to MJ or Shaq. Reggie knows that in the end the star is responsible win or lose.

Chuck also says he suffered much like Marino or Elgin ...
Cwebb no surprise ... alluded to team-mates that did not take the game seriously but no mention of some of the game where he "shrank" in the clutch.

Outside of Chuck, Reggie is my favorite player that never rang ...

Note: Not saying one player wins or loses a game singularly, I get it is a team sport, was just speaking on the "responsibility" that a star has to a team ...Reggie spoke well on teh subject. But again he like me is old school ...


Also shaq tells Brent Barry (in for Kenny smith) " I dont remember any of your playoff moments, no offense." LOL

So, a player not winning the championship IS a huge let down. Is it all on them? No, it's not. Management and team has a lot to do with it. A right team being built, a right coach, and sometimes, pure luck as to do with winning a championship or not. But does all the credit goes to the "superstar" player of the team, hell no! Does all of blame of NOT winning a championship goes to the star player? No! That's about as glib a summary as it comes. Just because Shaq doesn't remember Barry or Smith's contributions to championship teams doesn't mean that they didn't contribute at all. Barry contributed, and Smith, in particular, was vital to the Rockets championships. By agreeing with Shaq, you are basically saying that what is perceived is reality, and what really happened isn't.

Could Smith and Barry have been replaced by another player and the team would have still won the championship? Of course. In fact, they could be replaced MUCH easier than the star players of the team, and that is an understatement, but they still contributed, and without them and their vital contributions, those teams might not, and likely wouldn't have won. Management pulled those players in because they see them being vital cogs to a championship team, and management was right.

[Thread]

Duncan: 2 healthy Achilles tendons

the tired old shitbag Kirby: 1

Fine. You take that one. I'm stickin' with this one:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

[Killakobe81]

So, a player not winning the championship IS a huge let down. Is it all on them? No, it's not. Management and team has a lot to do with it. A right team being built, a right coach, and sometimes, pure luck as to do with winning a championship or not. But does all the credit goes to the "superstar" player of the team, hell no! Does all of blame of NOT winning a championship goes to the star player? No! That's about as glib a summary as it comes. Just because Shaq doesn't remember Barry or Smith's contributions to championship teams doesn't mean that they didn't contribute at all. Barry contributed, and Smith, in particular, was vital to the Rockets championships. By agreeing with Shaq, you are basically saying that what is perceived is reality, and what really happened isn't.

Could Smith and Barry have been replaced by another player and the team would have still won the championship? Of course. In fact, they could be replaced MUCH easier than the star players of the team, and that is an understatement, but they still contributed, and without them and their vital contributions, those teams might not, and likely wouldn't have won. Management pulled those players in because they see them being vital cogs to a championship team, and management was right.

Oh there you go, Amb taking blind leaps. I never said I agreed with Shaq ONLY Reggie. Shaq, if you watch the show talked about the "others" Fox, Horry Shaw etc. and how they helped him win. No ONE is saying those guys dont matter or don't count. In fact, they spent a great deal of time lauding Steve Kerr for his contributions.

I just thought it was funny he remembered a "signature playoff moment" from everyone else on the panel ...
But Chuck said it best NO ONE was going to say Oh well Steve, or Brent or even Smitty ... "they never won a chapionship" ...and again that is what you fail to grasp. Those are great players , If PAu failed to win a title he would never be ripped like they were ... because he is not a star like Lebron or even on Dirks' level. Of course management and team-mates are important. Health too ...heck Shaq even pointed out the luck involved with Horry's and Dfish hitting miracle shots.

But at the end of the day Chuck, Cwebb, Shaq and Reggie all talked about as the star the pressure and the responsibilty they had.

The whole point of or back and forth is not for me to discredit Pau who I like or laud Kobe who I like even more. But just to point out that the star player does not get the privilige, money, fame etc for the wins without aceepting a large share of the blame when they fail even if they played well or at least better than their less talented team-mates.

I just think you smack of hypocrisy because you make snide remarks about Malone or Kobe or players you dont like but turn around and make excuses for those that you do ... like Pau.

IF Kobe or Malone were 0-12 in playoffs before playing second fiddle for 2 straight titles you would crucify them or at the very least give praise to that star... Kobe was the 1 option for 2 championship teams and and you still kill him now. Im not saying like Kobe ... Im not even saying don't bash him ...because or back and forth is fun sometimes ...

I just still dont get why you are going out of your way to:

1. Question KAreem who btw, I just saw (NBA TV) average over 20 points in 1987 through first 3 games, in his Mid 30's on Boston's vaunted front-line ... in the Finals. Who cares if he did not get Finals MVP over a deserving Magic?
2. Why does Pau get a break that you would not offer any other "great" player? 0-12 is still 0-12 boiled down. Baked. Fried or grilled.


And this is the last time I plan to mention Kobe until the Finals are over. because tbh, he does not matter. he can't play and until a ch ampion is decided he has no bearing on the sport for 6 months plus ...

[ambchang]

Oh there you go, Amb taking blind leaps. I never said I agreed with Shaq ONLY Reggie. Shaq, if you watch the show talked about the "others" Fox, Horry Shaw etc. and how they helped him win. No ONE is saying those guys dont matter or don't count. In fact, they spent a great deal of time lauding Steve Kerr for his contributions.

I just thought it was funny he remembered a "signature playoff moment" from everyone else on the panel ...
But Chuck said it best NO ONE was going to say Oh well Steve, or Brent or even Smitty ... "they never won a chapionship" ...and again that is what you fail to grasp. Those are great players , If PAu failed to win a title he would never be ripped like they were ... because he is not a star like Lebron or even on Dirks' level. Of course management and team-mates are important. Health too ...heck Shaq even pointed out the luck involved with Horry's and Dfish hitting miracle shots.

But at the end of the day Chuck, Cwebb, Shaq and Reggie all talked about as the star the pressure and the responsibilty they had.

The whole point of or back and forth is not for me to discredit Pau who I like or laud Kobe who I like even more. But just to point out that the star player does not get the privilige, money, fame etc for the wins without aceepting a large share of the blame when they fail even if they played well or at least better than their less talented team-mates.

I just think you smack of hypocrisy because you make snide remarks about Malone or Kobe or players you dont like but turn around and make excuses for those that you do ... like Pau.

IF Kobe or Malone were 0-12 in playoffs before playing second fiddle for 2 straight titles you would crucify them or at the very least give praise to that star... Kobe was the 1 option for 2 championship teams and and you still kill him now. Im not saying like Kobe ... Im not even saying don't bash him ...because or back and forth is fun sometimes ...

I just still dont get why you are going out of your way to:

1. Question KAreem who btw, I just saw (NBA TV) average over 20 points in 1987 through first 3 games, in his Mid 30's on Boston's vaunted front-line ... in the Finals. Who cares if he did not get Finals MVP over a deserving Magic?
2. Why does Pau get a break that you would not offer any other "great" player? 0-12 is still 0-12 boiled down. Baked. Fried or grilled.


And this is the last time I plan to mention Kobe until the Finals are over. because tbh, he does not matter. he can't play and until a ch ampion is decided he has no bearing on the sport for 6 months plus ...

First, I am not sure why you are sounding more and more like Thread.

Second, I agree with most of this, I agree a star player SHOULD get most of the blame. Which is why I don't get why Pau was blamed for 2007, 2008, and 2011, while Kobe got off scotch free.

Third, Malone and Kobe didn't go 0-12 in the playoffs, so it's a moot point. And I believe you got the 0-12 reversed, I am saying it doesn't matter. Kobe going 0-2 in first round of the playoffs isn't a huge deal for me, because we know that their team wasn't supposed to win, it's him missing the playoffs, in his prime, with a supporting group that is probably good enough to go to the playoffs that really got me. Then there is this season, we understand that he is past his absolute prime, but he is supposed to still be a "dominant" player, and yet, we have seen, at least at the end of the year, that the Lakers actually do play better without Kobe, and there are reasons to back it up:

1) Kobe is a ball-stopper. It worked when he didn't have a lot of scoring options around him, but he does have a lot of scoring options around him now
2) Kobe played no defense, putting a huge defensive load onto the lakers frontline to stop the gaps.

At the end of the day, I think Pau gets way too little credit for the Lakers success, and way too much blame for the Lakers failure, while getting none of the accolades. Hey, from a statistical standpoint he was more valuable to the lakers during the 2 championship runs, why didn't he get any credit? Why was it that Kobe led them to 2 championships when it was Pau who had more contribution?

[Thread]

FAt the end of the day, I think Pau gets way too little credit for the Lakers success

That's because Pau couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

[Splits]

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...

So you do do 12.

[Thread]

So you do do 12.


I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

[Splits]

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

Well, you certainly did in this thread. Amb posted a top 10 sans Kobe and you were the 2nd response, rushing to his defense.

When did you stop doing 12?

[Thread]

Well, you certainly did in this thread. Amb posted a top 10 sans Kobe and you were the 2nd response, rushing to his defense.

When did you stop doing 12?

I don't 12. I leave that to you children.

[Splits]

I don't 12. I leave that to you children.

I understand how to read, you don't need to repeat yourself. You do need to answer the question, however. I get it, today, you don't do 12. In 2013, you obviously did. When did you stop?

[Thread]

I understand how to read, you don't need to repeat yourself. You do need to answer the question, however. I get it, today, you don't do 12. In 2013, you obviously did. When did you stop?

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

[Spurtacular]

Fine. You take that one. I'm stickin' with this one:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Still sticking with that? :lmao

[Thread]

Still sticking with that? :lmao

A course not. Now it's:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 2nd 5th

[Spurtacular]

A course not. Now it's:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 2nd 5th

What does that mean even?

[apalisoc_9]

2 is not half of 5.

[DMC]

A course not. Now it's:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 2nd 5th
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/78/96/17/789617e271f1e8c3c5c007fee16c3304.jpg

[Joseph Kony]

Culburn's schtick is tired af when the Lakers are irrelevant and he has no real ammo besides Tim is gay/never repeated. How the mighty have fallen. Now he just sounds like a blabbering fool, people reply out of pity at this point tbh

[Thread]

Culburn's schtick is tired af when the Lakers are irrelevant and he has no real ammo besides Tim is gay/never repeated. How the mighty have fallen. Now he just sounds like a blabbering fool, people reply out of pity at this point tbh

And yet here you are of a Sunday afternoon.

lmcontrollinao!!!

[Thread]

What does that mean even?

...They were selling your shit.

[Splits]

I don't 12. I leave that to you children.

Since when? You obviously did player rankings in '13, otherwise you wouldn't have jumped into this non-Kobe thread minutes after it was launched.

Was it when Duncan rang 5? Was it when ESPN put 12 into the ether forever and ever?

[Thread]

Since when? You obviously did player rankings in '13, otherwise you wouldn't have jumped into this non-Kobe thread minutes after it was launched.

Was it when Duncan rang 5? Was it when ESPN put 12 into the ether forever and ever?

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

[Splits]

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

But you did in '13

[Thread]

But you did in '13

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

[Splits]

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

You used to do top-10s until ESPN lodged 12

[Thread]

You used to do top-10s until ESPN lodged 12

I don't do 12. I leave that up to you children.

[Splits]

I don't do 12. I leave that up to you children.

I popped you good here. Dancin' with top-10 talk.

Cited.

[midnightpulp]

I popped you good here. Dancin' with top-10 talk.

Cited.

Wanna go 10.00 on Lakers/Warriors?

I got Lakers, obviously, who are leading by 11 at the half.

[Splits]

Wanna go 10.00 on Lakers/Warriors?

I got Lakers, obviously, who are leading by 11 at the half.

Sure.

[midnightpulp]

Sure.

:tu

(You still got this)

[Splits]

:tu

(You still got this)

I know, ain't no way Kirby is going to allow a win, he's chuckin' and chuckin', playing no D

[Thread]

I know, ain't no way Kirby is going to allow a win, he's chuckin' and chuckin', playing no D

tee, hee.

[Splits]

tee, hee.

Look at you, citin'.

That said, was I wrong? He got benched in the middle of the 3rd after going 4/14 and never returned.