Atlanta offering Joe Johnson a max deal?

[picnroll]

Sweeeeeet if true.

link (https://www.azcentral.com/my/zage.php?referer=http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0708p2main0708.html)

Hot-lanta to the max



A player personnel source in the NBA's Eastern Conference tells us that the Atlanta Hawks not only intend to offer Suns restricted free agent guard Joe Johnson a maximum contract offer on July 22, there are people within the Hawks organization saying they're going to end up getting him.

And a Western Conference source tells us that the Cleveland Cavaliers will turn their attention to Johnson now that Michael Redd has agreed to return to Milwaukee.

That has to be a scary thought to the rest of the NBA, because a 24-year-old Johnson could play Scottie Pippen to the 20-year-old LeBron James' Michael Jordan.

The exact contract could be worth between $68 million and $72 million for a five-year deal, which is what all other teams can offer Johnson.

The Suns could offer around $90 million for six seasons, but we hear the offer they have made is for six years and about $60 million.

That ultimately doesn't matter if the Suns are serious about matching all offers, which they would have seven days to do.

One source told us that most teams are convinced that the Suns will match, but perhaps Atlanta and Cleveland believe that the Suns are bluffing in attempt to get Johnson for less money.

if(ScriptsLoaded) stInit(); However it plays out, if the Suns are going to keep him, they're going to pay a lot more than the $50 million for six years they could have locked him in for last summer.

[ambchang]

And I had to wonder why Atlanta sucks.

[constantstate]

this would be sweet. if they lose him, their plans are toast. if they're forced to max him, it may cripple them down the line. plus jj should have gotten an extension from them in the first place... it would serve them right.

[Gummi]

Johnson is definatly worth $60 million for 6 years, but not the MAX IMO. But, I'm happy with him going to Atlanta instead of staying with the Suns.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

That ultimately doesn't matter if the Suns are serious about matching all offers, which they would have seven days to do.

Somehow I missed this change to the CBA, it used to be 14 days. Do we know that changed for sure?

[2pac]

Definately changed for shizzle

[2pac]

It should also be pointed out that Atlanta has drafted a swingman with every pick for about ten years.

[ChumpDumper]

They can use Joe at the point though. They have capspace -- might as well use it. They have to wait seven days, but they still have enough space left over for another max offer. Good attempt.

[Mr. Body]

At this point their GM, Knight, is trying to save his career. He's toast if they come up with nothing this offseason and now he seems prepared to frivolously waste his ownership's cash. JJ shouldn't consider the idea, but money has a way of talking. He'd have no fan base and would be guaranteed to lose for the rest of his career. No matter what, I see him staying in Phoenix.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

The question here is, "Is Joe Johnson as dumb as Stephen Jackson?" Of course, I don't think Jax locked himself into a long term deal there so maybe Johnson would have to be stupider. Break the bank in Phoenix if you're going break the bank anywhere.

[ChumpDumper]

Break the bank in Phoenix if you're going break the bank anywhere.They'll have the chance to match.

I love how so many here can sneeze at $12 million.

[Marcus Bryant]

The Suns are going to be stuck with a lot of over-priced talent in a couple of seasons surrounding an aging point. Their window has about one more season in it.

[Mr. Body]

Their window has about one more season in it.

Their window lasts as long as Nash does. Certainly more than one season.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Their window lasts as long as Nash does. Certainly more than one season.

But maybe not much beyond that if they can't get him a suitable backup. Nash is a runner, but even he's going to run out of juice if he has to play 45 minutes a night for three straight years.

[Mr. Body]

But maybe not much beyond that if they can't get him a suitable backup.

Agreed.

[SpursChampsIII]

I wouldn't place Joe Johnson in the same category with Pippen, as mentioned in the article.

[Mr. Body]

I wouldn't place Joe Johnson in the same category with Pippen, as mentioned in the article.

Agreed.

'Sides, Pippen was a great two-man. He was lousy running his own team.

[xcoriate]

^ :lmao he made it to the conference finals didn't he. Thats not bad.

I don't think they were putting him in the same class as Pip merely saying he didn't want to be LBJs 2 man.

[Marcus Bryant]

Their window lasts as long as Nash does. Certainly more than one season.

We'll see. Not at the pace he's on.

[101A]

Their window lasts as long as Nash does. Certainly more than one season.

Points break down all of a sudden, not over a period of time. Nash will be one of the best, then, real quick, he won't be. That could happen anytime in the next 3 seasons (sooner rather than later IMO because of his style and speed). Ultimately that's what Cuban was predicting when he let him get away.

[constantstate]

Points break down all of a sudden, not over a period of time. Nash will be one of the best, then, real quick, he won't be. That could happen anytime in the next 3 seasons (sooner rather than later IMO because of his style and speed). Ultimately that's what Cuban was predicting when he let him get away.
i think they have more than one season... but nash is 31/32 and more importantly, he's the "real" reason that team turned around with basically the same roster last year as the year before that. they should have seen tape of him laying down on the sidelines for his 1.2 mins of rest during playoff games and gotten a good backup... the regular season is where he needs the rest.

[Mark in Austin]

Johnson would be worth the max for CLE, not in ATL. Imagine Cleveland with a starting five of

Daniels
Johnson
Lebron
defensive power forward
Ilgauskas

that team would be a top four playoff team in the east.

[Banks91]

too many players now adays get compared to pippin and jordan, and more then

95% have absolutely no chance of being like them.

[CalsonicKansei]

Johnson is young and dumb I think, if Atlanta offers him the max contract Phoenix is going to have a hard time calling. And Johnson is going for the most IMO.

[baseline bum]

Joe Johnson is not worth the max in any circumstance whatsoever. If he can get it he should take it and run. 6 years, $60 million is a bit much even, considering Manu's only pulling $53 million over the same length contract. He would be an idiot to turn that down. The Suns are in a lose-lose situation if he signs their offer sheet.

Aren't you glad we have the big 3 locked up long-term already?

[Marcus Bryant]

Joe Johnson is not worth the max in any circumstance whatsoever. If he can get it he should take it and run. 6 years, $60 million is a bit much even, considering Manu's only pulling $53 million over the same length contract. He would be an idiot to turn that down. The Suns are in a lose-lose situation if he signs their offer sheet.

Aren't you glad we have the big 3 locked up long-term already?


Yes. Some continue to complain about Parker's deal. If he hit the open market this summer the Spurs might've found themselves having to give him a near-max to max deal.

[SpursChampsIII]

Johnson would be worth the max for CLE, not in ATL. Imagine Cleveland with a starting five of

Daniels
Johnson
Lebron
defensive power forward
Ilgauskas

that team would be a top four playoff team in the east.

Don't forget to throw Larry Hughes into this lineup.

[midgetonadonkey]

I don't think they were putting him in the same class as Pip merely saying he didn't want to be LBJs 2 man.

But he is willing to stay in Phoenix and be Nash and Amare's sidekick. He isn't worth the max but I'm glad there is a team out there stupid enough to break the bank on him and take him away from Phoenix. Hopefully he'll sign the sheet and head for Hotlanta.

[mavsfan1000]

This is good news. Hopefully Phoenix realizes their financial problems and lets him go.

[picnroll]

I can't see how the Suns can afford to let him go. They'll have to bite the bullet and pay him no matter what it takes. Next year it's max for Amare and then, with Bell, six deep and vet minimums forever.

[JMarkJohns]

Johnson will be matched and if finances force their hand, the Suns will trade Marion, whom you all know wasn't even a factor vs. the Spurs.

[picnroll]

Problem is that, given his contract, Marion has negative trade value. They could dump him for shorter, bad contract but the Suns will still be capped out.

[Marcus Bryant]

Problem is that, given his contract, Marion has negative trade value. They could dump him for shorter, bad contract but the Suns will still be capped out.

...in addition, the Suns likely would have to take back the same amount of salary and wouldn't get an expiring contract in return.

[timvp]

The Suns are following a scary trail. Their team proved to be good but not championship caliber ... yet now they have to break the bank in keeping the team together.

That's a road many franchises in sports have ventured, with most of the time the team has to be blown up somewhere down the line because they don't have the room to try to get better.

[Marcus Bryant]

They should threaten to match and then demand something back from the Hawks.

[baseline bum]

The Suns are following a scary trail. Their team proved to be good but not championship caliber ... yet now they have to break the bank in keeping the team together.

That's a road many franchises in sports have ventured, with most of the time the team has to be blown up somewhere down the line because they don't have the room to try to get better.

ie, New York Knicks, Toronto Raptors, Portland Trailblazers...

Phoenix has youth going for them though. Those other 3 teams were pretty old, but Marion still has 5 or 6 good years left, Nash has probably 4 or 5, and Stoudemire and Johnson have their whole careers ahead of them.

That Portland team was old as dirt. The Knicks never had anyone close to Stoudemire coming up. Toronto's best player became a huge pussy after signing his new deal and his supporting cast was on its last legs.

[timvp]

Nash is a ticking time bomb. His body could break down any second. The Mavs didn't match the Suns' offer because they didn't think his body would hold up for much longer.

[JMarkJohns]

You guys are undervaluing Marion. Yes, he's got a big contract, but he's an All-Star who will put up 20-10 for just about any team. He might not have much valeu now, but with 2 years left (when the finances really get troubling around 65+) he could easily be moved to a team like New York for expiring contracts. New York will never have the CAP space to utilize expiring contracts, so the only value they hold is in trade. They traded expiring contracts for Marbury and Penny and for Jamal Crawford in recent years. Chances are great that Tim Thomas gets traded this year, same with Hardaway next year.

New York, Dallas, Portland... All big spenders who trade expiring contracts for talent, no matter the price.

[Marcus Bryant]

Great, so you get back nothing for Marion and start to deplete the talent around an aging Nash.

Good luck.

[baseline bum]

Stoudemire looks like an MVP-caliber talent though. When you have a bigman like that you're always a title threat.

[Spursdaone]

Nash still has 2 years left. This decision by Phoenix could determine if San Antonio repeats. The other big decision is if Miami gets SAR.

[JMarkJohns]

Marcus, you seem to like to spin the facts. The Suns essentually played the Spurs tough WITHOUT Marion or Richardson making any significant contributions.

With just Nash, Johnson (3 games) and Amare the Suns hung in with the Spurs until the final minutes of the fourth quarters.

I'm telling you that losing Marion isn't as big a loss as losing Johnson and that even if they get nothing in return for him, he did nothing vs. the Spurs anyway.

Do I want the Suns to get rid of him? No.

But his loss is hardly catostrophic as most of his points came in transition and off put-backs. No plays were run for him. He's great at what he does, but in my opinion, he is replaceable.

Suns still have all their picks for the future. They can keep adding young talent. They've been one of the best teams in drafting since the 1990's, so they'll get talent.

As Baseline said, Amare has that "All-time" potential and along with Johnson and Nash form the nucleas for the next several years. After that, who know, but so long as Amare and Johnson are there, they'll have the two stars to contend.

[picnroll]

I'm more interested in whether Duncan gets a summers rest and comes back like the Duncan I watched last night from the 2001 all-star game than whether Johnson signs with Phoenix or SAR with Miami. That has a hell of a lot more to do with the Spurs repeating than your neurosing about other teams.

[Marcus Bryant]

Spin what? Loss of talent for essentially nothing isn't a good deal. That team needs Nash more than anyone else. Stoudemire is a phenomenal talent but he's the type of big who can blow up and his team will struggle to make the playoffs without someone else of the caliber of Nash running the show.

Losing Marion for nothing would be a huge step back.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm more interested in whether Duncan gets a summers rest and comes back like the Duncan I watched last night from the 2001 all-star game than whether Johnson signs with Phoenix or SAR with Miami. That has a hell of a lot more to do with the Spurs repeating than your neurosing about other teams.

Indeed. The best NBA move of the offseason might be the Spurs trading a Duncan at 70% for one at 100%.

[Spursdaone]

I'm more interested in whether Duncan gets a summers rest and comes back like the Duncan I watched last night from the 2001 all-star game than whether Johnson signs with Phoenix or SAR with Miami. That has a hell of a lot more to do with the Spurs repeating than your neurosing about other teams.
Just like 2004 when the Lakers picked up Malone and Payton. The same could be said about Phoenix and Miami.

[td4mvp21]

Marcus, you seem to like to spin the facts. The Suns essentually played the Spurs tough WITHOUT Marion or Richardson making any significant contributions.

With just Nash, Johnson (3 games) and Amare the Suns hung in with the Spurs until the final minutes of the fourth quarters.


Why do you think they didn't contribute? It wasn't an accident. Our defense shut them down. Did you realize that your team never made more threes than us in those 5 games?

[JMarkJohns]

I understand, but why were they shut down? Because neither could create their own shot. Neither is that great an open shooter that they can consistantly make shots with hands in their face. Neither was able to crash the boards on offense to get put-backs. and because of the Suns defensive rebounding woes, neither could get great looks in transition.

Besides, I never said the Suns would be trading Marion for nothing. New York have the Suns two 1st-rounders along with the expiring contracts for Marbury.

Marion is well worth an expiring contract and a pick to a team like Dallas or New York.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I love the Hawks!



If it's true that they're considering offering Johnson the max, then the Suns are screwed with whatever decision they make.

My guess is that they'd match the offer, which as others have stated, will put a serious dent in their ability to sign players in the future.

Anyone who thinks losing the Matrix wouldn't hurt the Suns is smoking crack. Thankfully we had Bowen on him, and D'Antoni wasn't smart enough to figure out how to free him up.

Any team would love to have a guy like Shawn Marion on their team. If the Suns can't hold onto him because of salary issues their team is going to feel it, big time.

[JMarkJohns]

Marion is a ghost come playoff time. Especially vs. the Spurs. The stats will bear this out.

If you can't create your own shot and aren't a great shooter, then you'll struggle to score.

If you rely entirely on athleticism for defense and rebounding rather than position and give up several inches and dozens of pounds to you inside opposition, then you'll struggle to make an impact.

Either way... Marion is routinely shut down and overmatched when it counts.

So, picnroll says that Marion has negative trade value and Mr. Jones says any team would love to have him.

Well, at least we know where Marion's value stands.

[Spursdaone]

Phoenix can't win a championship without Marion. That is a fact.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Now, JMarkJohns, I think any team would be glad to have him, but at the right price. So technically I'm not disagreeing with MB.

I just think the Suns will regret it if they lose him. Bruce Bowen makes a lot of great players look ordinary.

[Spursdaone]

Bruce Bowen would full time be guarding Joe Johnson instead of Marion partially. Bad idea.

[td4mvp21]

Marion is a ghost come playoff time. Especially vs. the Spurs. The stats will bear this out.

If you can't create your own shot and aren't a great shooter, then you'll struggle to score.


Marion did fine against the offensive teams. He had pretty good numbers against Dallas. Bowen did a good job on him, and whoever guarded Richardson did good on him. But you are right, neither can create their own shot. Both are mainly jumpshooters who get their shots from Nash.

[lordswing]

I really hope the Hawks get JJ, even if he is overpriced. Makes Amare less intimidating when there's only Nash to feed him the ball, and now I have an interest in going to a Hawks game. I think the Hawks can be a Suns-lite team, doesn't take a genius to pass the ball to guys like Marvin, the Joshes, and Al (though I wish Al would get traded for a big)

[Marcus Bryant]

Right now I'm skeptical if Stoudemire is the type of big who can carry a team all by himself (ala Duncan, DRob, Hakeem, Shaq, etc...)

[SequSpur]

Amare is bad ass.

My take is this.............

The NBA is fucked up. There are a few great players, a bunch of mediocres, to many teams, to many foreigners and to much cash.

Again... the NBA has damn near overpriced me out of the game.

I spent $2000 on Zarzamora and Southcross tickets in Club Hispanic during the damn playoffs.

Infuckingsane.

$65 dollar face value, 2 rows from the spotlights. I may have to turn to TV now.

[Streakyshooter08]

Sorry for this dumb question but couldn't he sign with phx for less money if he wants to? If he WOULD be satisfied with the deal he could turn atlanta down, couldn't he?

Thanks...

[JMarkJohns]

I have mixed feelings about Marion.

He'll always have value because he does so much. Especially during the regular season.

But I've seen him fade more than once. I think because he does so much without having anything run for him or without him because the focal point of anything is both why he's so valuable and why he's replaceable.

He's not a deliberate player. He's nice to have, but a few less expensive players like Jackson and Bell can easily duplicate his offense and spacing while pulling down around 7/8 rebounds and equal, if not better defense.

I think Marion will always have a market, especially when the seller isn't asking for anything but expiring contracts and picks.

[milkyway21]

The exact contract could be worth between $68 million and $72 million for a five-year deal, which is what all other teams can offer Johnson.

The Suns could offer around $90 million for six seasons, but we hear the offer they have made is for six years and about $60 million.

That ultimately doesn't matter if the Suns are serious about matching all offers, which they would have seven days to do.it was reported that the original plan was they want for Johnson to go out and listen to other teams' offers then, then match it.

THEY HAVE TO LOOK AHEAD, and that's RE-SIGNING AMARE.

[mavsfan1000]

I hope Phoenix lets him go. It could be Dallas and San Antonio next year if that is the case.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Points break down all of a sudden, not over a period of time. Nash will be one of the best, then, real quick, he won't be. That could happen anytime in the next 3 seasons (sooner rather than later IMO because of his style and speed). Ultimately that's what Cuban was predicting when he let him get away.

I agree. I think we're lookin at about two more years where's he's able to make Phoenix almost a contender. When Nash was resting (very rare) Dantoni didn't have much confidence in anybody but Joe Johnson running the point (although Jim Jackson did it well that one night). Where does that leave Barbosa in Dantoni's mind?

True, Cuban did see age as a factor with Nash, but you know he was thinking of Jason Terry, ... Josh Howard, younger, less expensive...

[mavsfan1000]

Bad teams find ways of losing and that is what Atlanta is doing. Making sure they don't have success in the future.

[tophy7]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2104688

Will Suns have enough to resign Amare?

3 max contracts in Joe Johnson, Steve Nash and Shawn Marion

[midgetonadonkey]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2104688

Will Suns have enough to resign Amare?

3 max contracts in Joe Johnson, Steve Nash and Shawn Marion

I think they will have to choose between JJ and Amare. If they are smart they will choose Amare. IMO JJ is going to be a Hawk.

[tophy7]

From that article I posted

"Various league executives have privately questioned whether the Suns would indeed match a max offer sheet to Johnson, given owner Robert Sarver's stated aversion to letting his annual payroll stray far beyond $50 million. With Johnson earning an average annual wage of $12 million and Stoudemire soon to receive a maximum contract extension that would kick in starting with the 2006-07 season, Phoenix would be in the rare position of carrying four players who earn roughly $50 million by themselves."

[Dex]

I think they will have to choose between JJ and Amare. If they are smart they will choose Amare. IMO JJ is going to be a Hawk.

Suns will not part with Amare, and after see how he played in the WCFs, I can't really say that I blame them.

Time for some SAT practice everybody.

Amare : Suns :: Tim : Spurs

Simple as that.

[BillsCarnage]

From that article I posted

"Various league executives have privately questioned whether the Suns would indeed match a max offer sheet to Johnson, given owner Robert Sarver's stated aversion to letting his annual payroll stray far beyond $50 million. With Johnson earning an average annual wage of $12 million and Stoudemire soon to receive a maximum contract extension that would kick in starting with the 2006-07 season, Phoenix would be in the rare position of carrying four players who earn roughly $50 million by themselves."

I've been saying this on one of the other Suns' board. The last year of KT's contract (07/08?) the starters will be making $55-$60mil. THE STARTERS. Can't wait to see what Sarver does then. :drunk

For those of you hoping JoJo will go anywhere, keep dreaming. He's not going anywhere. Yeah it'll cost the Suns, but he's staying.

JMark, Marion isn't going anywhere this year either. With everyone moving back to their "natural" position the Suns will give him another year to see how he performs in ther playoffs. If he's a no show, then he'll get Q'd.

[tempest186]

"The Hawks' offer, sources said, is likely to be front-loaded with a payment as high as $20 million in the first year of the deal. Rules on such payments and other specifics of the deal are also on hold until July 22, when the league announces the salary-cap number for next season."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2104688

That is absolutely insane. Joe Johnson is a very good player and I'm sure Phoenix will keep him but that first year salary is crazy.

[Kori Ellis]

Suns are going to match the offer.

By Marc Stein
ESPN.com


LAS VEGAS -- Joe Johnson's camp was informed Saturday that the Phoenix Suns intend to match Atlanta's expected five-year, $70 million offer to the restricted free agent, according to NBA front-office sources.

Word began spreading Friday at the Vegas Summer League that the Hawks have given Johnson a firm commitment that they'll sign him to a maximum offer sheet on July 22, which the league office has scheduled to be the first day free agents can sign contracts.

The Hawks' offer, sources said, is likely to be front-loaded with a payment as high as $20 million in the first year of the deal. Rules on such payments and other specifics of the deal are also on hold until July 22, when the league announces the salary-cap number for next season.

The rules on contract lengths, however, have already been finalized, and the Hawks are prevented from signing Johnson to a contract longer than five years. A maximum offer from the Suns would span six years at an estimated $90 million, matching the terms Michael Redd received from Milwaukee earlier this week, but sources say Phoenix has offered Johnson closer to $60 million over six seasons.

The Suns have maintained all season that they will match any offer Johnson gets, rating the versatile swingman as no less critical to the team's success than its three All-Stars: Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash and Shawn Marion. Matching a five-year offer, though, is undoubtedly more palatable than paying Johnson in the Redd range for six.

Various league executives have privately questioned whether the Suns would indeed match a max offer sheet to Johnson, given owner Robert Sarver's stated aversion to letting his annual payroll stray far beyond $50 million. With Johnson earning an average annual wage of $12 million and Stoudemire soon to receive a maximum contract extension that would kick in starting with the 2006-07 season, Phoenix would be in the rare position of carrying four players who earn roughly $50 million by themselves.

Arn Tellem, Johnson's agent, met with Phoenix president Bryan Colangelo and team chairman Jerry Colangelo during the Suns' summer-league game here Saturday against the Los Angeles Clippers. All parties declined to comment.

The Hawks, sources said, are still expected to go ahead with signing Johnson to an offer sheet, hoping that the value of the contract, potential incentive clauses and the up-front payment will prompt Phoenix to change its mind.

The Hawks will also take encouragement from the new collective bargaining agreement, which lessens the risk of signing restricted free agents. Starting this offseason, teams will be given only seven days to match an offer to a restricted free agent, compared to the previous window of 15 days. Teams have been hesitant in the past to sign restricted free agents to offer sheets and then have their free-agent funds potentially tied up for 15 days.

After a breakthrough 62-win season, followed by a trip to the Western Conference finals, Phoenix went into the offseason hoping to re-sign Johnson, sign Stoudemire to the extension and add toughness. The Suns addressed the latter aim by trading swingman Quentin Richardson to the New York Knicks for power forward Kurt Thomas and then reaching a verbal agreement on the first day of the free-agent season with Utah Jazz guard Raja Bell.

The Suns are forbidden from publicly discussing the Bell deal until he officially signs July 22, but team sources have said repeatedly that Bell was targeted to back up Johnson -- not as an insurance policy in case Johnson is let go.

[exstatic]

Joe Johnson is probably the best all around player on Phoenix when you factor in size, age, quickness, handles, shooting, passing and court vision. They're in love with Amare because there's always a premium placed on bigs, but he's not near the complete player that Johnson is. They were smart to get rid of Q, but it's a shame they couldn't work something out with Cleveland so that they wouldn't have to take back salary, especially with a PF who will be overmatched in the West. I just wonder how effective Amare will be if two of his perimeter bombers are gone. Can you say collapsing zones?

[exstatic]

Arn Tellem, Johnson's agent, met with Phoenix president Bryan Colangelo and team chairman Jerry Colangelo during the Suns' summer-league game here Saturday against the Los Angeles Clippers. All parties declined to comment.


Oh, shit. I missed this one the first time around. If Tellem is his agent, he will get the highest offer possible, and will lie, cheat and steal to do so. Even if you read that Phoenix has reached aqgreement with him, don't believe a word until the ink is dry on the contract. He fucked SA in '99 on the Lamond Murray deal, renegging on a verbal deal during the negotiating period. Phoenix is in a bad spot.

[tophy7]

Suns better hope they do something next season because it maybe their last chance :lol

[Spursdaone]

Spurs better do something this season or it could be a loss to Phoenix.

[violentkitten]

i hope robert sarver gets screwed over in this deal he seems like an ass.

as for the suns, if you want a guy who can eventually start to take over for an aging nash and keep the suns a serious contender then you cant afford to lose joe johnson. that team has a number of great athletes but without a good quarterback at point they aren't much.

[tophy7]

Spurs were 6-2 against suns last season, nice try though

[Spursdaone]

Phoenix got rid of their weakest link in Q. Richardson and now play a traditional style. The spurs will hate a bigger lineup by the suns. The suns will own them.

[tophy7]

Them not playing defense is their weakness and since they haven't corrected it, goodnight for them.

[Spursdaone]

Them not playing defense is their weakness and since they haven't corrected it, goodnight for them.
Putting Marion at the small forward is a big improvement on defense by itself. They also are now a much better rebounding team with 3 players capable of getting 10 or more rebounds with Thomas, Stoudemire, and Marion.

[tophy7]

Them not playing defense is their weakness and since they haven't corrected it, goodnight for them.

[Spursdaone]

The suns are much improved defense and using your quote doesn't make your argument any better. Marion can't guard the paint or strong power forwards. That was a joke to put him there. Thomas can guard power forwards and they can do some cross matching with Marion guarding the more athletic guy and Thomas guarding the stronger player. They might improve 5-10 from last year on defense.

[tophy7]

As long as D'antoni is there they're not playing defense

[Spursdaone]

As long as D'antoni is there they're not playing defense
Small lineups aren't supposed to play defense and now Phoenix has a normal lineup. They still won't be a great defensive team but they've greatly improved that part.

[tophy7]

Thomas can't shut down any of these PF's Duncan, KG, Dirk, Sheed & J Oneal
Waste of a trade, their "defense" might go down 2 points but so will their offense

[Spursdaone]

Why would their offense go down? Q. Richardson was the weakest link on that suns offense and now they replace him with a reliable shooter in Kurt Thomas.
You are wrong. Just add up their shooting percentage as a team with Kurt and the rest.

[violentkitten]

slowing down the suns is going to hurt their shooting % because they get a lot of easy transition buckets.

[tophy7]

15 ppg for Q for the season where he was just used as a spot shooter on a team that's loaded compared to 11.5 ppg on a weak ass team in a weak ass conference. As for marion going back to SF who cares? Spurs would just put Manu on him since he can't create a shot for himself and put Bowen on Joe J where he will shut him down like he does every other player he guards. Thomas on Duncan is a laugher and no need to even go any further.
Suns bench will consist of Barbosa(Still Garbage)/Hunter (If he stays)/Jim Jackson (35 years old, so he'll be done since you think Bowen is done at the same age)/McCarty (FA)/Bo Outlaw (Who cares)/Voshkul ( :lol ) and their defensive specialist :lol Bell

Weak bench still, weak defensive team still because of an offensive minded coach = Spurs will own them again

[violentkitten]

oddly enough, the suns' poor transition defense is going to hurt them against the spurs (never thought i would ever make that statement).

transition defense (and total team defense) is something that requires the entire team to buy into, not just adding a defensive minded player. we've seen running teams like the suns in the past in the nba try to add such a player to address their team defense deficiencies (dallas with bell, denver with buckner). it hasn't worked.

[exstatic]

Adding Thomas doesn't improve their defense, and while Amare is capable of 10 rebounds, it's not something he does on average. He's a pretty weak rebounder for his career at 8.5 per game. I also think he's no better on Duncan than Marion would be, and Thomas has prove in the past that he can't guard Tim.

You don't just go out and get a fair defender PF and announce that now you're going to play defense. I agree that Mike D'entures is the problem. His philosphy was to LET players go down the lane so that you could leak out on the break. They'll need a new coach, or they will waste the primes of their best players like Cuban did with Nellie.

[tophy7]

Adding Thomas doesn't improve their defense, and while Amare is capable of 10 rebounds, it's not something he does on average. He's a pretty weak rebounder for his career at 8.5 per game. I also think he's no better on Duncan than Marion would be, and Thomas has prove in the past that he can't guard Tim.

You don't just go out and get a fair defender PF and announce that now you're going to play defense. I agree that Mike D'entures is the problem. His philosphy was to LET players go down the lane so that you could leak out on the break. They'll need a new coach, or they will waste the primes of their best players like Cuban did with Nellie.

Truth

[violentkitten]

i think hunter frustrates duncan more than thomas.

[tophy7]

And they'll probably lose him to FA since they won't have any money to pay him with the starters making 55 mil :lol

[Spursdaone]

15 ppg for Q for the season where he was just used as a spot shooter on a team that's loaded compared to 11.5 ppg on a weak ass team in a weak ass conference. As for marion going back to SF who cares? Spurs would just put Manu on him since he can't create a shot for himself and put Bowen on Joe J where he will shut him down like he does every other player he guards. Thomas on Duncan is a laugher and no need to even go any further.
Suns bench will consist of Barbosa(Still Garbage)/Hunter (If he stays)/Jim Jackson (35 years old, so he'll be done since you think Bowen is done at the same age)/McCarty (FA)/Bo Outlaw (Who cares)/Voshkul ( :lol ) and their defensive specialist :lol Bell

Weak bench still, weak defensive team still because of an offensive minded coach = Spurs will own them again
It's funny how everyone wanted to get Bell and now that Phoenix has him he isn't that good. That is bullshit and Thomas is an improvement over Stoudemire on defense. Stoudemire can stay out of foul now that Thomas is there. Thomas can guard Duncan and it is not a laughtor. Duncan will not explode on Thomas but will get his usual. Duncan is no Shaq.

[tophy7]

Amare never guarded Duncan in the 1st place so he was never in foul trouble (by the way to get in foul trouble you actually have to attempt to play defense). Also when has Thomas ever played good D on Duncan?

[Spursdaone]

If you saw Duncan at 25 or 26 compared to now he is not quite as athletic as he was. I don't see Thomas having as much trouble with Duncan now as in the past. Everyone had trouble with Duncan at that time.

[tophy7]

It couldn't be the fact that he played the whole postseason injured could it?

[Marcus Bryant]

If you saw Duncan at 25 or 26 compared to now he is not quite as athletic as he was. I don't see Thomas having as much trouble with Duncan now as in the past. Everyone had trouble with Duncan at that time.

Two bad wheels will do that to a man. If you think he's lost anything when healthy you need a clue.

[Spursdaone]

His stats have slowly decline since 2000-2001. It is not all due to injury. People tend to slow down at 30 a little compared to being young and athletic.

[tophy7]

Playing 69 and 66 games in those last 2 years had nothing to do with it? He's finally having an uninterrupted preason. Let him have a full year before claiming he's downhill.

Garnett is 30 too, he's older than Duncan, is he going downhill?

[Spursdaone]

Garnett is 28 I believe. They aren't over the hill but don't expect them to be dominating like they were at their prime. Everyone peaks at a different age and I feel Duncan peaked at 26.

[tophy7]

If you look at Duncan's stats they've always hovered around the 21-23 ppg mark, only once did he top that in 01 when he averaged 25 and if you see by the stats it was because he shot 80% from the line adding to more points. So you can't say he's declining.

[tophy7]

For the 3rd time I'll post it

Duncan Born: Apr 25, 1976
Garnett Born: May 19, 1976

Duncan is 1 month older, so you're just showing your bias when you said KG is in his prime and Duncan isn't.

[tophy7]

I've derailed the thread, sorry about that thread starter, I won't say anymore on this comparison, there's the other thread for that.

[Spursdaone]

KG hit his prime in 2003-2004 while Duncan hit his prime in 2000-2001. The stats don't lie.

[exstatic]

KG will decline quicker than Tim will, simply because his game IS athleticism, and Tim's IS NOT. You also must not follow basketball or it's history very closely. Big men do NOT peak in their mid 20s. They peak AFTER 30, and often have effective careers into their late 30s and even early 40s in some cases (Kareem, Parish, Willis).

[Spursdaone]

KG will decline quicker than Tim will, simply because his game IS athleticism, and Tim's IS NOT. You also must not follow basketball or it's history very closely. Big men do NOT peak in their mid 20s. They peak AFTER 30, and often have effective careers into their late 30s and even early 40s in some cases (Kareem, Parish, Willis).
Duncan used to be based on athleticism but now he depends more on power. He will not be the same as he was 4 years ago. KG is still getting better because he dedicates his summer so much to training it is sick.

[exstatic]

Again, no history knowledge. Tim has NEVER been a great leaper, or very quick. His game is about moves, counter moves, and knowing where to be and where the ball is at all times. That is why his career rebounding numbers are far and above an athlete and leaper like Amare, 12.5 to 8.5. Tim has the game between his ears.

[Spursdaone]

Again, no history knowledge. Tim has NEVER been a great leaper, or very quick. His game is about moves, counter moves, and knowing where to be and where the ball is at all times. That is why his career rebounding numbers are far and above an athlete and leaper like Amare, 12.5 to 8.5. Tim has the game between his ears.
You didn't watch Duncan 5 years ago. That is what made him so good is that he the athleticism at that time. He now is pulling a Webber on finding other ways to be effective.

[exstatic]

I've watched pretty much every game he's played in silver and black, from 1997 to today. While he is a professional athlete, his athleticism has never been more than maybe the 50th percentile of the NBA.

[Spursdaone]

He was very active in 99 when they won the championship. The combination with his speed and height made it so hard to get a good shot that year. He is not been at that level since on defense.

[violentkitten]

if garnett played with duncan's approach to the game (yes, a lot of it is 'fundamental') then maybe he would have made the playoffs this season.

troll is running on fumes right now.

[Spursdaone]

So are you saying Duncan doesn't need athleticism to be great. Rasho should be the next all star. You are not giving enough credit to Duncan's speed and losing some of it will hurt him big time.

[spurster]

Yes. Some continue to complain about Parker's deal. If he hit the open market this summer the Spurs might've found themselves having to give him a near-max to max deal.
The Spurs are lucky to have Manu and TP at their current contracts. The good times will continue.

[violentkitten]

So are you saying Duncan doesn't need athleticism to be great. Rasho should be the next all star. You are not giving enough credit to Duncan's speed and losing some of it will hurt him big time.

you are missing the point and duncan is 20 times the skilled player that rasho is, regardless of athletic ability.

duncan's athletic ability hasn't dropped off that much, if at all, and your trolling isn't going to change that.

[ChumpDumper]

So are you saying Duncan doesn't need athleticism to be great.He was Finals MVP with two bum ankles. Any honest person would admit that affected his athleticism.

[Spursdaone]

He was Finals MVP with two bum ankles. Any honest person would admit that affected his athleticism.
He was still active despite his terrible ankle injuries. :rolleyes People on here actually think he is going to get better next year. I highly doubt it.

[ChumpDumper]

He was still active despite his terrible ankle injuries.Indeed he was.

No Spur fan would ever say Duncan should just retire.

You're a fraud.

Probably wolves009 posting from his gammy's on vacation.

[ducks]

this was his worse year
I think he could be better if he was healthy
this was his year he was inured alot though

[ducks]

he also played in summer games so he less time off in offseason and was worn out

[lordswing]

Duncan used to be based on athleticism but now he depends more on power. He will not be the same as he was 4 years ago. KG is still getting better because he dedicates his summer so much to training it is sick.


Is that because KG has time in the summer to dedicate himself? :D Must be a lot easier for KG since he doesn't have to play an extra 3 weeks of the most intensive basketball huh?

[ambchang]

This again? Isn't it getting boring now? Big men peaking at 26? What is this? Tennis?
Duncan atheletic? Over the hill at 29?
Garnett 28 years old? Sheesh, the posts are filled with errors and baseless opinions.

[violentkitten]

garnett is not in the same class of franchise player as timmy and shaq. you put td or shaq on a team and you are guaranteed at a minimum to be in the playoffs and make it past the 1st round.

if i had to pinpoint the reasons, i'd say it's because garnett does not have the post game that those two do and he tends to disappear a lot at the end of games.

i am definitely glad that the spurs have td for half the price of a shaq or garnett. good job, holt cat.

[Spursdaone]

garnett is not in the same class of franchise player as timmy and shaq. you put td or shaq on a team and you are guaranteed at a minimum to be in the playoffs and make it past the 1st round.

if i had to pinpoint the reasons, i'd say it's because garnett does not have the post game that those two do and he tends to disappear a lot at the end of games.

i am definitely glad that the spurs have td for half the price of a shaq or garnett. good job, holt cat.
It's funny you say that because Duncan has never been on a bad team. His teams could still make the playoffs without him.

[ChumpDumper]

What part of "maximum" do you have trouble with?

[violentkitten]

if the suns lose jjohnson they won't make it back to the conference finals.

[ChumpDumper]

Exactly.

[ChumpDumper]

the Hawks have given Johnson a firm commitment that they'll sign him to a maximum offer sheet on July 22Should I rephrase the question?

[JMarkJohns]

In reguards to how little defense the Suns played and how they've addressed or failed to address it so far...

Spurs shot 48% from the field and averaged 15 offensive rebounds per game.
Suns shot 49% from the field and averaged 11 offensive rebounds per game.

Suns have traded arguably their worst defender and most inconsistant scorer for Thomas, a top-5 defensive rebounder and PF/C who, against the Suns system last year, averaged 14ppg and 17rpg. Not saying he'll put up the same numbers, but he won't slow them down.

Also, the Suns will sign Raja Bell, a player whom several of this sites posts wanted as Bowen's defensive replacement. He is a player familier with Nash and the Suns style from his days in Dallas and is a SG who also shot 40% from range last season while averaging more points-per-minute than Richardson.

He was also the player guarding Ginobili for the Jazz, a team that held Manu to 21 per game(contrast to Manu's 30+ vs. the Suns).

Moving Marion to the wings and Amare off the biggest post for 20 minutes a game will help free them up for blocking shots and hopefully keep them out of foul trouble.

Being that the Suns have addressed two of their biggest needs (defensive rebounding, though perimeter defender), saying they haven't addressed them or to say they won't be a better is just foolish.

They'll never challenge the Pistons or Spurs for overall average, but they held the Spurs to a lower FG% in the series. They get one more stop or grab a few more rebounds and every game is up in the air.

Nash is still the weak-point of the defense, but every other position is getting better.

Everything depends on Johnson's return and the allowing of this team to play for the year, but they've added depth and experience to a young team. I expect the series to be a lot closer when it matters.

[violentkitten]

the thing with bell is that in the spurs' defensive system he would be quite nice. the problem with the suns, again, is that you need more than just adding a 'defensive stopper' to help your defense. dallas tried that with bell. typical nellie logic.

as for kthomas, again, for him to be effective you have to slow the game down. if you slow the game down then the suns are getting away from what has made them successful.

but losing joe johnson would be a major blow for them long term.

[JMarkJohns]

With the score well into the triple-digits, Kurt Thomas averaged 14-17. If that's not affective, then what the hell is?

I've already explained the Suns get/force misses. They were a very poor defensive rebounding team. They have now added a top-10 rebounder and top-5 defensive rebounder. They have three forwards who can average 9 rebounds next year and, with Johnson, three wings that routinely pull down 4 each (Jackson, Bell).

Last year they got the misses, this year they are better equipped to get the stops.

Thomas hits the 15-18 foot jumper as well as any big not named Dirk. Bell shoots better percentages from everywhere and is more athletic than Richardson. Both will fit the offensive system as well by spreading the floor.

They'll still give up points because of tempo and the refusal to foul within two feet of the basket and sake of depth, so I'm not an eternal optimist drunk on fanaticism. I just see the numbers and the games and see that the two players added fill areas of need and stregthen, not perfect, a defense which fared well, but not good enough.

[Spursdaone]

JMarkJohns knows his stuff. I was saying the same thing but he said it better so that makes me not a true suns fan like him. The suns are for real and San Antonio needs to do something about it. I will give them credit if they make that move.

[constantstate]

Phoenix intends to match 5 years only at max for JJ (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2104688)

Phoenix intends to match Atlanta's 5 years, $70 million
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

LAS VEGAS -- Joe Johnson's camp was informed Saturday that the Phoenix Suns intend to match Atlanta's expected five-year, $70 million offer to the restricted free agent, according to NBA front-office sources.

Word began spreading Friday at the Vegas Summer League that the Hawks have given Johnson a firm commitment that they'll sign him to a maximum offer sheet on July 22, which the league office has scheduled to be the first day free agents can sign contracts.

The Hawks' offer, sources said, is likely to be front-loaded with a payment as high as $20 million in the first year of the deal. Rules on such payments and other specifics of the deal are also on hold until July 22, when the league announces the salary-cap number for next season.

The rules on contract lengths, however, have already been finalized, and the Hawks are prevented from signing Johnson to a contract longer than five years. A maximum offer from the Suns would span six years at an estimated $90 million, matching the terms Michael Redd received from Milwaukee earlier this week, but sources say Phoenix has offered Johnson closer to $60 million over six seasons.

The Suns have maintained all season that they will match any offer Johnson gets, rating the versatile swingman as no less critical to the team's success than its three All-Stars: Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash and Shawn Marion. Matching a five-year offer, though, is undoubtedly more palatable than paying Johnson in the Redd range for six.

Various league executives have privately questioned whether the Suns would indeed match a max offer sheet to Johnson, given owner Robert Sarver's stated aversion to letting his annual payroll stray far beyond $50 million. With Johnson earning an average annual wage of $12 million and Stoudemire soon to receive a maximum contract extension that would kick in starting with the 2006-07 season, Phoenix would be in the rare position of carrying four players who earn roughly $50 million by themselves.

Arn Tellem, Johnson's agent, met with Phoenix president Bryan Colangelo and team chairman Jerry Colangelo during the Suns' summer-league game here Saturday against the Los Angeles Clippers. All parties declined to comment.

The Hawks, sources said, are still expected to go ahead with signing Johnson to an offer sheet, hoping that the value of the contract, potential incentive clauses and the up-front payment will prompt Phoenix to change its mind.

The Hawks will also take encouragement from the new collective bargaining agreement, which lessens the risk of signing restricted free agents. Starting this offseason, teams will be given only seven days to match an offer to a restricted free agent, compared to the previous window of 15 days. Teams have been hesitant in the past to sign restricted free agents to offer sheets and then have their free-agent funds potentially tied up for 15 days.

After a breakthrough 62-win season, followed by a trip to the Western Conference finals, Phoenix went into the offseason hoping to re-sign Johnson, sign Stoudemire to the extension and add toughness. The Suns addressed the latter aim by trading swingman Quentin Richardson to the New York Knicks for power forward Kurt Thomas and then reaching a verbal agreement on the first day of the free-agent season with Utah Jazz guard Raja Bell.

The Suns are forbidden from publicly discussing the Bell deal until he officially signs July 22, but team sources have said repeatedly that Bell was targeted to back up Johnson -- not as an insurance policy in case Johnson is let go.

[tophy7]

That means the starting lineup's payroll will be in the mid 50's.
Will be tough to add anything to it if they don't trade one of their 5.
Most likely Marion will go.

[clubalien]

possible for a 3 way trade for marion to spurs?

[JMarkJohns]

I doubt Phoenix trades Marion to their biggest rival. Besides, you guys are gettin' up their in salary as well. Your trio will be pushin 30 mill this year and around 38 within a couple.

You can't add 14 million to that unless you want the same predicament that most are criticizing Phoenix for.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

so did atlanta finally offer johnson this deal and did the suns finally match?

[ChumpDumper]

Contracts can't be signed til the 22nd at the soonest.