Your All-NBA teams

[da_suns_fan]

If you have Carmelo Anthony or Russel Westbrook on your ANY of your teams, you are a moron.

1st team

Forward - Lebron

Forward - Durant

Guard - Chris Paul

Guard - James Harden

Center - Tyson Chandler


2nd Team

Forward - Tim Duncan

Forward - Serge Ibaka

Guard - Dwayne Wade

Guard - Stephen Curry

Center - Joakim Noah


3rd Team

Forward - Paul George

Forward - Kenneth Fucking Faried

Guard - Tony Parker

Guard - Kobe Bryant (regrettably)

Center - Marc Gasol

[Phillip]

shut up faggot

[Phillip]

:lmao Ibaka, Faried, and George over Carmelo

[Kulo]

If you have Carmelo Anthony or Russel Westbrook on your ANY of your teams, you are a moron.

1st team

Forward - Lebron

Forward - Durant

Guard - Chris Paul

Guard - James Harden

Center - Tyson Chandler


2nd Team

Forward - Tim Duncan

Forward - Serge Ibaka

Guard - Dwayne Wade

Guard - Stephen Curry

Center - Joakim Noah


3rd Team

Forward - Paul George

Forward - Kenneth Fucking Faried

Guard - Tony Parker

Guard - Kobe Bryant (regrettably)

Center - Marc Gasol
:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

OP has some of the shittiest takes on ST, tbh..

[da_suns_fan]

:lmao Ibaka, Faried, and George over Carmelo

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=306&player_ids%5B%5D=521&player_ids%5B%5D=230

Yes.

[Thebesteva]

OP has some of the shittiest takes on ST, tbh..

This...OP is one of the worst posters on ST

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol parker in any discussions about any form of awards....

[da_suns_fan]

These responses just remind me how truly clueless most clowns on this board are.

Its the "yay points" thesis.

http://wagesofwins.com/the-yay-points-thesis/

It doenst matter if you rebound, shoot shitty etc. Most people are too fucking clueless (as evidenced by the responses above) to realize that shooting the ball a lot doesnt win basketball games.

[Phillip]

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=306&player_ids%5B%5D=521&player_ids%5B%5D=230

Yes.

lol can't even get your stats right
lol mixed up george hill with paul george
lol faggot

[Thread]

These responses just remind me how truly clueless most clowns on this board are.

lol.

[Phillip]

These responses just remind me how truly clueless most clowns on this board are.

Its the "yay points" thesis.

http://wagesofwins.com/the-yay-points-thesis/

It doenst matter if you rebound, shoot shitty etc. Most people are too fucking clueless (as evidenced by the responses above) to realize that shooting the ball a lot doesnt win basketball games.

or perhaps its the fact that Ibaka and Faried are like 4th and 5th options on their team, while Carmelo is the indisputed leader. Ibaka and Faried basically play clean-up ball both defensively and offensively, and are relied on to do nothing but hustle, and hit wide open jumpers/dunks. Big whoop.

Carmelo has to go to battle against the best defenders of every team, every game. He is counted on to manufacture offense for himself and his teammates, and constantly battle double and even triple teams in the paint while creating offense. I'd say his job is much tougher.

[da_suns_fan]

lol can't even get your stats right
lol mixed up george hill with paul george
lol faggot

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=521&player_ids%5B%5D=113

Better? Same result. Carmelo sucks.

[da_suns_fan]

or perhaps its the fact that Ibaka and Faried are like 4th and 5th options on their team, while Carmelo is the indisputed leader. Ibaka and Faried basically play clean-up ball both defensively and offensively, and are relied on to do nothing but hustle, and hit wide open jumpers/dunks. Big whoop.

Carmelo has to go to battle against the best defenders of every team, every game. He is counted on to manufacture offense for himself and his teammates, and constantly battle double and even triple teams in the paint while creating offense. I'd say his job is much tougher.

And that explains why he shoots so poorly yet Durant, Lebron etc. are asked to play the same role and even same position yet they both do it so much better Carmelo doesnt even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence:

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=228&player_ids%5B%5D=163

Whatever "role" carmelo has, he doesnt do it well.

Compare that to Faried who shoots a better percentage, pulls down TWICE as many rebounds, more blocks steals etc. Same with Ibaka. You say "big whoop" yet NO ONE else in the league is able to duplicate what they do (same with Tyson Chandler). They play their roles very, VERY well whereas Carmelo does not.

I doubt you have the brain cells to comprehend this but Ill post it anyway:

http://www.thenbageek.com/articles/a-low-usage-myth

[da_suns_fan]

When you compare Carmelo to both Lebron and Durant, you really see how fucking clueless most people are.

Take a category Durant isnt "great" at. Say..assist to turnover raito. He's not "good/great", but hes a helluva lot better than Carmelo Anthony (who is basically good at N-O-T-H-I-N-G except putting up shot attempts):

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=228&player_ids%5B%5D=163

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol Wins Produced is one of the most flawed advanced stats you'll find, tbh..

I'm a big advanced stats guy and I've been using them here for years, but I hate advanced stat advocates that overrate players like Faried, tbh..Chandler is a great player too, but guys that can't create their own offense don't belong on all-NBA teams, unless they're providing elite defense and elite rebounding(like a Ben Wallace), which Chandler has not done this year, not to mention Faried, a mediocre defensive player..

[da_suns_fan]

:lol Wins Produced is one of the most flawed advanced stats you'll find, tbh..

I'm a big advanced stats guy and I've been using them here for years, but I hate advanced stat advocates that overrate players like Faried, tbh..Chandler is a great player too, but guys that can't create their own offense don't belong on all-NBA teams, unless they're providing elite defense and elite rebounding(like a Ben Wallace), which Chandler has not done this year, not to mention Faried, a mediocre defensive player..

Another clueless idiot:

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/521-kenneth-faried

Kenneth Faried is an elite rebounder unless you dont count "rebounds".

If hes not "All-NBA", then show me another player who can do what he does.

btw - You appear to not know the difference between the wages of wins formula versus "wins produced" used by basketball-reference.com so your opinion on this particular advanced stat means very little.

[HarlemHeat37]

Tyson Chandler's offensive rating is elite this year, yet the Knicks offense hasn't lost anything in his absence..

Tyson Chandler is the defensive anchor on the 17th ranked defensive team in the league, and his defensive metrics don't even approach last year's impact..Knicks fans have complained about him for most of this season, tbh..

The Knicks have won 11 of the last 13 games that Chandler has missed, despite having Kenyon Martin and Chris Copeland as their replacement Cs, guys that are 6'9:lol..

[HarlemHeat37]

:lmao Uh, ya, the Wages of Wins formulas you referenced in the article I clicked on involve WP48..I used WoW stats when I began using advanced stats, until I realized how flawed their numbers are, tbh:lol..

Also, I said both elite defender and elite rebounder, like a Ben Wallace..Faried is a mediocre defender that can't create a shot for himself, there's absolutely no logical all-NBA argument for a player that can't get stops and can't create his own shot:lol..

[Phillip]

And that explains why he shoots so poorly yet Durant, Lebron etc. are asked to play the same role and even same position yet they both do it so much better Carmelo doesnt even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence:

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=228&player_ids%5B%5D=163

Whatever "role" carmelo has, he doesnt do it well.

Compare that to Faried who shoots a better percentage, pulls down TWICE as many rebounds, more blocks steals etc. Same with Ibaka. You say "big whoop" yet NO ONE else in the league is able to duplicate what they do (same with Tyson Chandler). They play their roles very, VERY well whereas Carmelo does not.

I doubt you have the brain cells to comprehend this but Ill post it anyway:

http://www.thenbageek.com/articles/a-low-usage-myth


When you compare Carmelo to both Lebron and Durant, you really see how fucking clueless most people are.

Take a category Durant isnt "great" at. Say..assist to turnover raito. He's not "good/great", but hes a helluva lot better than Carmelo Anthony (who is basically good at N-O-T-H-I-N-G except putting up shot attempts):

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=228&player_ids%5B%5D=163

Lebron is in a class of his own, and might be the greatest basketball player ever when its all said and done.

Durant works heavily off of screens and transition buckets.

Carmelo mostly works out of isolations.

Granted, he may not be the most efficient scorer, mainly because his shot selection is bad, but still doesn't detract from his amazing scoring ability, especially in the clutch.

[da_suns_fan]

Tyson Chandler's offensive rating is elite this year, yet the Knicks offense hasn't lost anything in his absence..

Tyson Chandler is the defensive anchor on the 17th ranked defensive team in the league, and his defensive metrics don't even approach last year's impact..Knicks fans have complained about him for most of this season, tbh..

The Knicks have won 11 of the last 13 games that Chandler has missed, despite having Kenyon Martin and Chris Copeland as their replacement Cs, guys that are 6'9:lol..


If you take a basic "design of experiments" course, you learn about randomization, blocking of factors and statistical noise.

You just tried to make sense of statistical noise. You didnt block for opponent, location, what other teammates were injured/not-playing etc.

Thats the typical "lazy" analysis I normally see from the likes of DuncanOwnsKobe. Using the team's win/loss record when a player was out or playing to determine his value. I tried to explain it to him but he didnt understand either.

[HarlemHeat37]

For those that aren't familiar with Wages of Wins, they had an article last month claiming the Lakers role players had a bigger role than Shaq and Kobe in 2001:lol..

Most advanced stats people think Wages of Wins is garbage, look it up for yourself, tbh..

WoW numbers are known for overvaluing shooting efficiency and rebounding, too..

[da_suns_fan]

Lebron is in a class of his own, and might be the greatest basketball player ever when its all said and done.

Durant works heavily off of screens and transition buckets.

Carmelo mostly works out of isolations.

Granted, he may not be the most efficient scorer, mainly because his shot selection is bad, but still doesn't detract from his amazing scoring ability, especially in the clutch.

Nonsense.

It doesnt matter where Carmelo works out of. The fact is that he doesnt put in the basket any better than the average small forward in the league. If hes so good, why is he so AVERAGE?

And if working of screens is "easier", then why doesnt he work off screens? The truth is running around screens all game is physically exhausting and he'd rather not do it because hes a lazy player.

Its this laziness that leads to his poor rebounding and passing numbers as well.

[da_suns_fan]

For those that aren't familiar with Wages of Wins, they had an article last month claiming the Lakers role players had a bigger role than Shaq and Kobe in 2001:lol..

Most advanced stats people think Wages of Wins is garbage, look it up for yourself, tbh..

WoW numbers are known for overvaluing shooting efficiency and rebounding, too..

Not true:

http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/lal?season=2000

Shaq and Kobe are numbers 1 & 2, respectively.

I dont know what article you are referring to.

[da_suns_fan]

They (Shaq and Kobe) were numbers 1 & 2 the following year as well:

http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/lal?season=2001

And the year after that (though Kobe surpassed Shaq that year):

http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/lal?season=2002

[HarlemHeat37]

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/03/11/the-myth-of-the-kobe-and-shaq-rings/

[da_suns_fan]

:lmao Uh, ya, the Wages of Wins formulas you referenced in the article I clicked on involve WP48..I used WoW stats when I began using advanced stats, until I realized how flawed their numbers are, tbh:lol..

Also, I said both elite defender and elite rebounder, like a Ben Wallace..Faried is a mediocre defender that can't create a shot for himself, there's absolutely no logical all-NBA argument for a player that can't get stops and can't create his own shot:lol..

Sure there is: All-NBA indicates the best players at that position. Not the best players capable of getting their own shot off. And who cares if you can "get your own shot off" when it doesnt go in the basket (like both Carmelo Anthony and Russell westbrook).

[da_suns_fan]

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/03/11/the-myth-of-the-kobe-and-shaq-rings/

Interesting, but Im pretty sure you skimmed it and didnt actually read it.

Dude looks at playoff production and writes: The key we should all note is that the playoffs are very limited number of games. Over 20 games any NBA player can have a great run.

And youre not arguing against any of his conclusions specifically, just summing up that wages of wins cant be right because it "just cant" which is the typical lazy analysis used by most nba pundits.

[Phillip]

Nonsense.

It doesnt matter where Carmelo works out of. The fact is that he doesnt put in the basket any better than the average small forward in the league. If hes so good, why is he so AVERAGE?

Retarded argument from a retarded poster.


And if working of screens is "easier", then why doesnt he work off screens? The truth is running around screens all game is physically exhausting and he'd rather not do it because hes a lazy player.

Why didn't Steve Nash have a low post offensive game? Is it because its physically exhausting and he is lazy?

[Phillip]

Sure there is: All-NBA indicates the best players at that position. Not the best players capable of getting their own shot off. And who cares if you can "get your own shot off" when it doesnt go in the basket (like both Carmelo Anthony and Russell westbrook).

Are you suggesting that an ability to create your own shot, as well as shots for others is not a necessary quality for championship level basketball?

[da_suns_fan]

Retarded argument from a retarded poster.



Why didn't Steve Nash have a low post offensive game? Is it because its physically exhausting and he is lazy?

What point guard has a low post offensive game? It can be expected for Caremelo to play off screens if that gets more made baskets (since that is what YOU are implying). Steve Nash was phenomenal at "his game" whereas Carmelo has never been "above average" in any year of his career.

You havent explained why Carmelo is so poor at "his game". All you can do is make excuses that guys like Durant, Lebron, Harden etc dont have to make.

[da_suns_fan]

Are you suggesting that an ability to create your own shot, as well as shots for others is not a necessary quality for championship level basketball?

Im saying that Carmelo's ability to create his own shot doesnt result in made baskets (see his average field goal percentages and points-per-shot ratings) and certainly doesnt get good shots for others (see his negative assist to turnover ratio).

[Phillip]

What point guard has a low post offensive game? It can be expected for Caremelo to play off screens if that gets more made baskets (since that is what YOU are implying). Steve Nash was phenomenal at "his game" whereas Carmelo has never been "above average" in any year of his career.

You havent explained why Carmelo is so poor at "his game". All you can do is make excuses that guys like Durant, Lebron, Harden etc dont have to make.

WTF? I'd say a year shooting +49% FG, +35% 3PT, 25.7 ppg/7.4 rpg/3.4 apg is a ridiculously impressive season for anyone. Yet, according to you, that is not "above average"?


Im saying that Carmelo's ability to create his own shot doesnt result in made baskets (see his average field goal percentages and points-per-shot ratings) and certainly doesnt get good shots for others (see his negative assist to turnover ratio).

Looks to me like he has plenty of made baskets, considering he averages 25ppg for his career and has done so shooting above 45% for his career.

I don't diagree that he has efficiency issues at times with his scoring, due to poor shot selection, but it doesn't change the fact that defenses have to respect the hell out of his scoring ability, and it certainly helps his teams play winning basketball. IIRC, his team has never not made the playoffs since he has been in the league. I'd say that's pretty impressive, and his abilities to score contribute to wins more than you want to admit.

[HarlemHeat37]

My argument against WoW, or any basic advanced metric stat like WS or even PER, is that it relies entirely on play-by-play box score numbers and completely discredits defense, role, chemistry, etc..it also overvalues shooting efficiency and rebounding, which is why a guy like Faried is so overrated by these numbers..

Using these numbers as part of your argument in combination with +/-numbers, roles and eye test is far more effective than using a single set of numbers based entirely on box score numbers..

[da_suns_fan]

List of "elite" players who can get their own shot off and also shoot BETTER than Carmelo:

Duncan, durant, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Harden, Z-Bo, Dirk, Pierce, Garnett, Aldridge, Millsap, Brook Lopez, Bosh (then i got bored)

Now, knowing that Carmelo is BELOW AVERAGE in every non shooting statistical category (rebounding, steals, assists, turnovers etc), why should he be ALL-NBA when so many players are so vastly superior to him performing the same role?

[Phillip]

My argument against WoW, or any basic advanced metric stat like WS or even PER, is that it relies entirely on play-by-play box score numbers and completely discredits defense, role, chemistry, etc..it also overvalues shooting efficiency and rebounding, which is why a guy like Faried is so overrated by these numbers..

This.

These stats are nice, but have to be combined with an eye-test, for factors that cannot be measured by stats or any sort of math. By themselves though, they generally can give a very flawed picture of a player.

[Phillip]

List of "elite" players who can get their own shot off and also shoot BETTER than Carmelo:

Duncan, durant, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Harden, Z-Bo, Dirk, Pierce, Garnett, Aldridge, Millsap, Brook Lopez, Bosh (then i got bored)

Now, knowing that Carmelo is BELOW AVERAGE in every non shooting statistical category (rebounding, steals, assists, turnovers etc), why should he be ALL-NBA when so many players are so vastly superior to him performing the same role?

Because many of them are not better basketball players than Carmelo.

Simple as that.

[HarlemHeat37]

Interesting, but Im pretty sure you skimmed it and didnt actually read it.

Dude looks at playoff production and writes: The key we should all note is that the playoffs are very limited number of games. Over 20 games any NBA player can have a great run.

And youre not arguing against any of his conclusions specifically, just summing up that wages of wins cant be right because it "just cant" which is the typical lazy analysis used by most nba pundits.

A 20 game playoffs sample size is still significant, but the point is that the numbers are completely discrediting the roles on the team..

[Mugen]

:lol @ the original post tbh...... :lmao

[-21-]

Nobody really posted their All-NBA picks. LOL

[rayjayjohnson]

1st:

- paul
- bryant
- durrant
- bron bron
- marc gasol

2nd

- kyrie
- wade
- lee
- duncan
- chandler

3rd

- steph curry
- paul george
- iggy
- melo (regrettably)
- noah

parker was a 2nd team lock until he started sucking massive dick the past month

[spurraider21]

:lmao Uh, ya, the Wages of Wins formulas you referenced in the article I clicked on involve WP48..I used WoW stats when I began using advanced stats, until I realized how flawed their numbers are, tbh:lol..

Also, I said both elite defender and elite rebounder, like a Ben Wallace..Faried is a mediocre defender that can't create a shot for himself, there's absolutely no logical all-NBA argument for a player that can't get stops and can't create his own shot:lol..

ESPN talks about him a lot and he does crazy dunks and they call him Manimal

[spurraider21]

Nonsense.

It doesnt matter where Carmelo works out of. The fact is that he doesnt put in the basket any better than the average small forward in the league. If hes so good, why is he so AVERAGE?

And if working of screens is "easier", then why doesnt he work off screens? The truth is running around screens all game is physically exhausting and he'd rather not do it because hes a lazy player.

Its this laziness that leads to his poor rebounding and passing numbers as well.
Kawhi leonard is a 49% shooter and Melo is a 45% shooter. Therefore the Knicks should trade Melo for Kawhi since he is more accurate

[spurraider21]

Kawhi leonard is a 49% shooter and Melo is a 45% shooter. Therefore the Knicks should trade Melo for Kawhi since he is more accurate


Also, by your logic, how the hell is Harden all NBA first team with his fg%. Its because he's lazy. He takes inefficient shots. Doesn't belong in first team. Ur logic rivals that of a wall.

G - Chris Paul
G - Kobe Bryant
F - LeBron
F - Durant
C - Joakim Noah

2nd team:

G - Harden
G - Parker
F - Duncan
F - Melo
C - Dwight

3rd team

G - Wade
G - Westbrook
F - Blake Griffin
F - want to put Bosh, but he's a center this year. Ibaka
C - Marc Gasol

[da_suns_fan]

Also, by your logic, how the hell is Harden all NBA first team with his fg%. Its because he's lazy. He takes inefficient shots. Doesn't belong in first team. Ur logic rivals that of a wall.


No, you are lazy.

Not all shots are worth the same amount of points. Hardens field goal percentage is driven down by the fact that he takes a lot of three pointers. He also gets to free throw line at an incredible rate. And unlike Carmelo, he actually has a positive assist-to-turnover ratio (around 2 assists per turnover whereas Carmelo is in the NEGATIVE).

James Harden has a point per shot rating 1.52....rivaled only by the likes of Lebron and Durant.

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=229

Thanks for pointing out that you, too, are completely clueless.

[da_suns_fan]

This.

These stats are nice, but have to be combined with an eye-test, for factors that cannot be measured by stats or any sort of math. By themselves though, they generally can give a very flawed picture of a player.


Because many of them are not better basketball players than Carmelo.

Simple as that.

Textbook lazy analysis.

Let the NBA Geek explain:

Here's the thing. When I present an argument based on a statistical analysis (such as my claim that Kevin Love is better than LaMarcus Aldridge -- you knew I'd bring that up, right?), if you say something like "The stats cloud the truth" or "You need to get your nose out of the stats and watch the game" or "Anyone can SEE that this not true," you are, let's face it, just making shit up. You're just saying "that's not true because I know better." And there's a reason that when you tried that argument in your 8th grade science class, your teacher was unmoved. If you think that the statistics are lying, you need to demonstrate how or provide some reasoning that a particular piece of data misrepresents the truth. For instance, when David Berri critiques John Hollinger's PER, he mentions that the metric does not penalize players for missed field goal attempts, and goes on to explain why he believes so. This is the basis for a debate. John can refute this claim by presenting some further data if he so chooses.

Claiming that I don't watch the games isn't a good refutation (and, let's be serious here, you are going to claim that you have seen more TIMBERWOLVES games than me? Oh please. Nobody else watches them play). Or claiming that you "see" things that I do not "see" when we have both watched the same amount of basketball is also pretty unlikely to lead anywhere but us shouting "Yes!" and "No!" back-and-forth.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion. I'm fine with you saying "I think Aldridge is better than Love and you'll never convince me otherwise." I'm not ok, however, with you dressing up this opinion as fact unless you want to get into a debate. One that, unfortunately, is going to have to involve stats, because you will forgive me if I don't accept "because everybody can see that" as actual evidence. And if you want to tell me the statistics are "lying", you have to actually explain why.

[Phillip]

Textbook lazy analysis.

Let the NBA Geek explain:

Here's the thing. When I present an argument based on a statistical analysis (such as my claim that Kevin Love is better than LaMarcus Aldridge -- you knew I'd bring that up, right?), if you say something like "The stats cloud the truth" or "You need to get your nose out of the stats and watch the game" or "Anyone can SEE that this not true," you are, let's face it, just making shit up. You're just saying "that's not true because I know better." And there's a reason that when you tried that argument in your 8th grade science class, your teacher was unmoved. If you think that the statistics are lying, you need to demonstrate how or provide some reasoning that a particular piece of data misrepresents the truth. For instance, when David Berri critiques John Hollinger's PER, he mentions that the metric does not penalize players for missed field goal attempts, and goes on to explain why he believes so. This is the basis for a debate. John can refute this claim by presenting some further data if he so chooses.

Claiming that I don't watch the games isn't a good refutation (and, let's be serious here, you are going to claim that you have seen more TIMBERWOLVES games than me? Oh please. Nobody else watches them play). Or claiming that you "see" things that I do not "see" when we have both watched the same amount of basketball is also pretty unlikely to lead anywhere but us shouting "Yes!" and "No!" back-and-forth.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion. I'm fine with you saying "I think Aldridge is better than Love and you'll never convince me otherwise." I'm not ok, however, with you dressing up this opinion as fact unless you want to get into a debate. One that, unfortunately, is going to have to involve stats, because you will forgive me if I don't accept "because everybody can see that" as actual evidence. And if you want to tell me the statistics are "lying", you have to actually explain why.

Neat. Unfortunately none of this applies to you, because you have the IQ of a pile of whore shit.

[da_suns_fan]

ESPN talks about him a lot and he does crazy dunks and they call him Manimal

Actually its because he rebounds like crazy, shoots a high percentage, gets lots of blocks and steals, never turns it over etc.

Thanks for playing.

[ohmwrecker]

This...OP is one of the worst posters on ST

You sure about that?


lol parker in any discussions about any form of awards....

[da_suns_fan]

Neat. Unfortunately none of this applies to you, because you have the IQ of a pile of whore shit.

Yet Ive shown you that Carmelo doesnt do anything except take a lot of shots. Your counter argument is that you can "see" that he is a good player, but your mind is playing tricks on you since you refuse to remember Carmelo missing a LOT of shots.

Your argument is irrational because theres literally NOTHING anyone can show or explain to you that would change your mind. If other small forwards shot the ball at a worse rate than carmelo or rebounded at a worse rate than carmelo etc, then I would say he is an exceptional player. But the fact is that they dont.

[Phillip]

Yet Ive shown you that Carmelo doesnt do anything except take a lot of shots. Your counter argument is that you can "see" that he is a good player, but your mind is playing tricks on you since you refuse to remember Carmelo missing a LOT of shots.

Your argument is irrational because theres literally NOTHING anyone can show or explain to you that would change your mind. If other small forwards shot the ball at a worse rate than carmelo or rebounded at a worse rate than carmelo etc, then I would say he is an exceptional player. But the fact is that they dont.

I've given much more than just a counter argument that you can "see" that he is a good player. He has put together a very impressive resume. To average 25 ppg on +45% shooting for your career, that's damn good.

Is he flawless? Certainly not. But would I rather build a team around Serge Ibaka, Paul George, or Kenneth Faried, before building around Carmelo? You would be sick in the head to do such a thing.

[Phillip]

Why does DSF do this? He is non-existent for months at a time, then suddenly decides to come here and spout off some stupid bullshit, get face-raped by everyone because he is too stupid to make any good points, then cry about it and leave. Rinse and repeat.

[da_suns_fan]

I've given much more than just a counter argument that you can "see" that he is a good player. He has put together a very impressive resume. To average 25 ppg on +45% shooting for your career, that's damn good.

Is he flawless? Certainly not. But would I rather build a team around Serge Ibaka, Paul George, or Kenneth Faried, before building around Carmelo? You would be sick in the head to do such a thing.

Who said shooting 45% was "good"? Thats actually really BAD for a forward. Youre just too fucking clueless to realize.

[Phillip]

Who said shooting 45% was "good"? Thats actually really BAD for a forward. Youre just too fucking clueless to realize.

Actually 45% is around the league average, and has been for well over a decade. And for a guy who is a perimeter oriented player, that's pretty solid.

[Phillip]

Especially hilarious is how DSF picks and chooses from replies to debate with.

I'd love to hear how you would rather build a team around Serge Ibaka or Kenneth Faried before building around Carmelo, a guy who has never not led his team to the playoffs.

[da_suns_fan]

Actually 45% is around the league average, and has been for well over a decade. And for a guy who is a perimeter oriented player, that's pretty solid.

The league average for a PF (which Melo has played this year) is actually 47% but it doesnt matter. You just admitted that he shoots AVERAGE.

So if hes average at shooting and doesnt do anything else "well", then WHY should he be ALL-NBA? Because he shoots a lot?

[Phillip]

The league average for a PF (which Melo has played this year) is actually 47% but it doesnt matter. You just admitted that he shoots AVERAGE.

So if hes average at shooting and doesnt do anything else "well", then WHY should he be ALL-NBA? Because he shoots a lot?

Playing occasional minutes at PF when you go with a small lineup, makes you a traditional PF? News to me.

You still didn't respond to all of what I have said. Would you rather build a team around Serge Ibaka/Kenneth Faried, or Carmelo Anthony?

[Brazil]

G - Chris Paul
G - Harden
F - LeBron
F - Durant
C - Tim motherfucking Duncan

2nd team:

G - Kobe
G - Parker
F - Noah if we say pf/c spot
F - Melo
C - Gasol

3rd team

G - Wade
G - Irving
F - Blake Griffin
F - Ibaka
C - Howard

[da_suns_fan]

Playing occasional minutes at PF when you go with a small lineup, makes you a traditional PF? News to me.

You still didn't respond to all of what I have said. Would you rather build a team around Serge Ibaka/Kenneth Faried, or Carmelo Anthony?

I understand what you are saying. You need a "scorer" to build around and those two arent "scorers". Yet as I've proven, Carmelo is an average scorer. Certainly not one to build around.

None are capable of being the "first option scorer" on a championship caliber team. But since Ibaka and Faried are definitely championship caliber role players, I would want them on the Suns on any day of the week, whereas theres no way in hell Id want Carmelo on my team.

But who's the franchise player to "build around"? The answer is none.

Now answer my question: If Carmelo is "average" at shooting (as you said) and does everything else either "average" or badly (assists/turnovers) then why should he be All-NBA?

[Phillip]

I understand what you are saying. You need a "scorer" to build around and those two arent "scorers". Yet as I've proven, Carmelo is an average scorer. Certainly not one to build around.

:lmao @ a 25 ppg career scorer being an average scorer :lmao :lmao :lmao


None are capable of being the "first option scorer" on a championship caliber team. But since Ibaka and Faried are definitely championship caliber role players, I would want them on the Suns on any day of the week, whereas theres no way in hell Id want Carmelo on my team.

But who's the franchise player to "build around"? The answer is none.

If that is the case, then right now, the only player you would build around is Lebron James, because none of the other elite scorers seem to have the ability to lead their team to a championship. Kobe is hurt, Pierce/Dirk/Duncan are all too old, Durant is unproven, and no one else fits the bill. Dumbass reasoning.

Carmelo has been the clear-cut leader of his team for every season of his career, and has led his team to the playoffs every season of his career. I'll take that guy before Faried/Ibaka.


Now answer my question: If Carmelo is "average" at shooting (as you said) and does everything else either "average" or badly (assists/turnovers) then why should he be All-NBA?

This is so retarded that it doesn't really deserve an answer.

Sad thing is, my lack of desire to give you an answer to a question that is so loaded with bullshit and bias, will make you actually think in your mind that you "won".

Then again, perhaps that is the best way to end this, with you giving yourself a public declaration of victory, only for everyone to laugh their asses off at your dumbassery, you cry and bitch about it, then leave the forum for a few months.

[da_suns_fan]

:lmao @ a 25 ppg career scorer being an average scorer :lmao :lmao :lmao



If that is the case, then right now, the only player you would build around is Lebron James, because none of the other elite scorers seem to have the ability to lead their team to a championship. Kobe is hurt, Pierce/Dirk/Duncan are all too old, Durant is unproven, and no one else fits the bill. Dumbass reasoning.

Carmelo has been the clear-cut leader of his team for every season of his career, and has led his team to the playoffs every season of his career. I'll take that guy before Faried/Ibaka.



This is so retarded that it doesn't really deserve an answer.

Sad thing is, my lack of desire to give you an answer to a question that is so loaded with bullshit and bias, will make you actually think in your mind that you "won".

Then again, perhaps that is the best way to end this, with you giving yourself a public declaration of victory, only for everyone to laugh their asses off at your dumbassery, you cry and bitch about it, then leave the forum for a few months.


All youve done is further proved the "YAY POINTS!" Thesis. It doesnt matter how badly you shoot or how badly you do everything else. If you score a lot of points, morons will think youre great.

As to your absurd "the only player to build around is Lebron", I already listed a plethera of first-option scorers who this season (old age or not) are shooting a better percentage and have a better point per shot rating than Carmelo. You just choose to ignore because your argument is irrational.

And yes, Im declaring victory since you obviously have nothing besides "25 points per game on 45% shooting" which is definitely nothing to brag about.

[FkLA]

This.

These stats are nice, but have to be combined with an eye-test, for factors that cannot be measured by stats or any sort of math. By themselves though, they generally can give a very flawed picture of a player.

True. Too bad your eye tests suck though tbh.

:lol Kawhi Leonard=Shane Battier
:lol Roddy Bowbwall
:lol _irk

[FkLA]

1st
Paul
Harden
Durant
LeBron
Duncan

2nd
Wade
Kobe
Melo
Griffin
Dwight

3rd
Parker
Curry
George?
Noah
Gasol

[da_suns_fan]

This dude just basically destroys monos/phillips argument that you have to "see carmelo" play. He even talks about Carmelo specifically:


You watch every game. You know everything about basketball. That’s going to be your main argument against me quoting the stats. I’m here to tell you that your game watching isn’t anywhere near as helpful as you think.

You can’t see the “Invisible Gorilla”

It turns out our attention is actually limited. We can’t focus on many things at once. In a study that aptly had people count the number of times a basketball was passed, observers MISSED a person in a gorilla suit walking by. We have a limited attention we can use. When we focus on one thing we can miss others. When you watch a basketball game, you’d like to think you’re focusing on everything. News flash: you’re not! You’re focusing on the guy with the ball and while you’re doing that you’re missing tons of other things influencing the game — including potentially a gorilla attack.

Your memory is limited

Seven plus or minus two, that’s magic range for short term memory. When people are asked to remember a list of things they will progressively get worse as you up the number. If I asked you to remember a list of 20 items you probably wouldn’t even bother as you’d realize the futility of it. There are ten active players on a basketball court. Even attempting to pretend your short term memory could contain all of the needed information long enough to hold it in long term memory is a joke. What’s more, your memory can be fooled.

Your memory is ruled by emotion

The availability heuristic is a problem we have that means things that stand out in your memory will seem more important or more likely than they are. See that thunderous dunk by your favorite player? It will probably stick with you easier than that routine layup or simple tip in or even worse a boring rebound. What’s more, the fact that instant replay and Sports Center will play that again and again will help engrain it. And that prays on something else: we’re more likely to trust a memory if it is tied to strong emotion. Exciting plays, or plays that decide the game (clutch plays) will seem more relevant to us. And while all of this is happening we’re fooled into thinking they’re more common than they are. Of course, all of these points don’t even beat the kicker of it all.

Your memory sucks

At Sloan Bill James talked about basketball (see here around the 26:45 mark). While he admitted he would not be entering basketball stats, he did recount a memory of an interesting game (paraphrased below):

In 2003 the Kansas City Jayhawks lost a title game to Maryland. In this game Juan Dixon scored 23 points. He was guarded primarily by future Chicago Bulls guard Kirk Hinrich. In the thirty-seven minutes Kirk Hinrich guarded Juan Dixon he only scored four points. For the six (or seven) possesions that Keith Langford guarded Juan Dixon he scored 19 points.

There are a few problems with the story (boxscore here):

Maryland didn’t play Kansas City in 2003, they played them in 2002.
They did not play them in the title game (it was in the Elite 8 Final Four).
Juan Dixon scored 33 points not 23
Hinrich only played 29 minutes (making guarding a player for 37 minutes difficult)
Dixon was already up to 10 points by the 11:40 mark of the first half.
What makes this tale interesting is that Bill James prefaced it by saying he watched it multiple times. He also tells the shocked listeners to find the video, implying he had confidence in his memory. This is not actually meant to be dig on Bill James. I consider Bill James to be one of the best people in sports statistics. But even he is not capable of properly remembering one basketball game (and that is with multiple viewings.) This is a simple point. We do not remember things as well as we’d like to think. In fact, we can point out that one of Bill James’ biggest contributions was to help make sure many people were keeping track of stats and using the right stats. He did not advocate all of us finding the several people that watch all of the games for each team and getting an assessment from them. As I mentioned above, while you are watching your attention is divided. There is too much information for you to possibly hold and your emotions (and instant replay) are making the decision of what to highlight for you. And even after all that, your brain isn’t going to be able to store all of that information perfectly.

Summing up

I used to watch every Nuggets game. In Colorado we have a station called Altitude that plays every game. Years back I lost my job and cut my cable to save money. I stopped watching the games and started following the box scores; a decision that may have worked out for the better or worse, depending on your perspective.

But I’ve been there. I’ve been where I think I’m the expert because I see every game. I could explain why we lost despite Carmelo Anthony scoring 25 points. I could even explain that while the stats showed his shooting was poor that he actually played well. But it was all a lie, a beautiful lie crafted by my flawed brain. It’s OK to accept that we’re not perfect. It’s OK to accept that small things will influence our perception. In sports though, we luckily have tools that let us make sure we can actually see what’s going on. Of course, what I tend to see is many people ignoring these tools. It’s very much like saying you don’t need glasses because your eyes are fine. The truth is most of us have terrible vision when it comes to sports, but many of us won’t admit it. And all I’m saying is that it’s hard to convince me you’re watching the game when I know your vision is flawed.

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/03/22/you-watch-the-games-so-what/

[Phillip]

All youve done is further proved the "YAY POINTS!" Thesis. It doesnt matter how badly you shoot or how badly you do everything else. If you score a lot of points, morons will think youre great.

As to your absurd "the only player to build around is Lebron", I already listed a plethera of first-option scorers who this season (old age or not) are shooting a better percentage and have a better point per shot rating than Carmelo. You just choose to ignore because your argument is irrational.

And yes, Im declaring victory since you obviously have nothing besides "25 points per game on 45% shooting" which is definitely nothing to brag about.

I've never heard of a team that wins a game based on how many rebounds they got, or how good their defense was. I'm pretty sure, in the end, while those things certainly are a major help and part of the game, the only way you can win basketball games is to score more points than your opponent does.

Some people overvalue scoring, but you are severely undervaluing it here, especially to make a retarded claim like Faried/Ibaka > Carmelo.

In the end, to have a scorer with the talent and ability that Carmelo has, is not a common thing. But you can find plenty of players who rebound, defend, block shots, and hit wide open 15 footers.

[Phillip]

True. Too bad your eye tests suck though tbh.

:lol Kawhi Leonard=Shane Battier
:lol Roddy Bowbwall
:lol _irk

lol obsessed

[Phillip]

This dude just basically destroys monos/phillips argument that you have to "see carmelo" play. He even talks about Carmelo specifically:



http://wagesofwins.com/2012/03/22/you-watch-the-games-so-what/

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[FkLA]

lol king of stupid takes

[da_suns_fan]

In the end, to have a scorer with the talent and ability that Carmelo has, is not a common thing. But you can find plenty of players who rebound, defend, block shots, and hit wide open 15 footers.

Except you are wrong on both counts.

Its quite simple to find players who are able to DUPLICATE Carmelo's shooting percentage and point per shot rating. Take for instance Vince Carter:

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=261

Likewise its easy find players who are able to score as much as Carmelo per 48 yet shoot a better percentage: lebron, wade, durant, dirk, griffin, aldridge, pierce, kobe, duncan

And all those player do something else "well" besides "score" too.

However, find me a player who is able to duplicate Kenneth Faried's rebounds, shooting percentage, blocks and steals. Who else grabs 14+ rebounds per 48, shoots over 50% from the floor and averages over 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks per 48?

Answer: NO ONE.

Yet you think it should be "easy" to find "plenty of players who rebound, defend, block shots, and hit wide open 15 footers".

[Killakobe81]

Anybody with a wild guess on what the "DA" stands for above^ ? :wow

[Phillip]

Except you are wrong on both counts.

Its quite simple to find players who are able to DUPLICATE Carmelo's shooting percentage and point per shot rating. Take for instance Vince Carter:

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=215&player_ids%5B%5D=261

Likewise its easy find players who are able to score as much as Carmelo per 48 yet shoot a better percentage: lebron, wade, durant, dirk, griffin, aldridge, pierce, kobe, duncan

And all those player do something else "well" besides "score" too.

However, find me a player who is able to duplicate Kenneth Faried's rebounds, shooting percentage, blocks and steals. Who else grabs 14+ rebounds per 48, shoots over 50% from the floor and averages over 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks per 48?

Answer: NO ONE.

Yet you think it should be "easy" to find "plenty of players who rebound, defend, block shots, and hit wide open 15 footers".

:lmao if Vince Carter was just as good as Carmelo, then why couldn't he lead the Mavs to the playoffs with Dirk at his side?

[Latarian Milton]

elite scores are rare talents in the league too, but it's not like a streaky shooting guard (like friend killer) would always help your team more than a prime bruce bowen possible would imho. the ibaka/melo comparison doesn't hold much more value than a comparison between TC and friend killer

rebounding and scoring are equally as important for you to win a game imho. the different of FG% between a elite score and an average rotational player ain't that big as you think, and if you give a role player as many shots as kobe takes in a game, he'll also average 20+ points imho. while if you outrebound the opposing team by 15-20 every game, it legitimately gives you 15-20 extra shots which will pretty well make up for the FG% gap imho

[Cry Havoc]

Wow, DSF just taking any tiny amount of credibility he had as a hoops fan and shitting on it. :wow

I hope for his sake he's just playing a stupid, stupid form of the Devil's Advocate.