Dropping the atomic bombs on Japan is/was seen as a necessary evil, but...

[DeadlyDynasty]

do you consider the Allied bombing of Dresden in a similar light--or as a war crime?

[Koolaid_Man]

do you consider the Allied bombing of Dresden in a similar light--or as a war crime?

Negative...dropping bombs on the Japs was an act of Terrorism by the US. It was a complete violation of the rules of war. They attacked our military and in turn we attacked their civilians.. why do you think there's so much terrorism in the world today...its because the US provided the blue prints by attacking innocent civilians. As usual though US citizens are ill informed or simply like to turn a blind eye. Terrorists are doing nothing but copying our style.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Negative...dropping bombs on the Japs was an act of Terrorism by the US. It was a complete violation of the rules of war. They attacked our military and in turn we attacked their civilians.. why do you think there's so much terrorism in the world today...its because the US provided the blue prints by attacking innocent civilians. As usual though US citizens are ill informed or simply like to turn a blind eye. Terrorists are doing nothing but copying our style.

An actual amphibious assault/invasion of the Japanese mainland would've been much more costly for both sides--and Japanese cities (and their civilians) would've been reduced to rubble.

[Koolaid_Man]

An actual amphibious assault/invasion of the Japanese mainland would've been much more costly for both sides--and Japanese cities (and their civilians) would've been reduced to rubble.

Is your arguement justified terrorism?

[DeadlyDynasty]

Is your arguement justified terrorism?

Basically, yes. That's what I mean when I say "necessary evil." Kill some to save many more. Even after the 2nd bomb hit Nagasaki, Emperor Hirohito had to be talked into surrendering. The bombing of Dresden just has a different feel to it (at least for me) though since it served no strategic purpose.

[DarrinS]

Negative...dropping bombs on the Japs was an act of Terrorism by the US. It was a complete violation of the rules of war. They attacked our military and in turn we attacked their civilians.. why do you think there's so much terrorism in the world today...its because the US provided the blue prints by attacking innocent civilians. As usual though US citizens are ill informed or simply like to turn a blind eye. Terrorists are doing nothing but copying our style.

And yet, Japanese aren't committing terror attacks

[Koolaid_Man]

Basically, yes. That's what I mean when I say "necessary evil." Kill some to save many more. Even after the 2nd bomb hit Nagasaki, Emperor Hirohito had to be talked into surrendering. The bombing of Dresden just has a different feel to it (at least for me) though since it served no strategic purpose.

so then from his perspective you can fully understand why Osama felt justified in 911?

[Koolaid_Man]

And yet, Japanese aren't committing terror attacks

when have they ever? isn't military fair game? are you advocating US Imperialism through State sponsored Terrorism in order to control the poppy seed fields of Afghanistan .

[DarrinS]

so then from his perspective you can fully understand why Osama felt justified in 911?

:rolleyes

[DarrinS]

when have they ever? isn't military fair game? are you advocating US Imperialism through State sponsored Terrorism in order to control the poppy seed fields of Afghanistan .

Is this what they teach you kids these days? smh

[Koolaid_Man]

:rolleyes

^ so are you gonna snap yo fangers and roll your neck as well?

so who's side was God on anyway? Some Muslims would argue 911 is God's plan. Most Americans would say killing Osama was God's will...which is it?

[DeadlyDynasty]

when have they ever?

scro, look up Rape of Nanking and Unit 731

[Koolaid_Man]

Is this what they teach you kids these days? smh


So when the US attacks Japanese citizens in the name of "war" you're ok with that...why not go after their military bases and emperor palaces....instead we wanted to kill women and children enmass to send a very evil message. The Japanese didn't hide behind their women and children like Islamic extremists do...so there was no excuse for the bomb...we can't decry terrorism when it's convenient...all we have to do is acknowledge that the birth place of modern day terror started in the US, transformed into the KKK and now the various militia groups around the country...

[Koolaid_Man]

scro, look up Rape of Nanking and Unit 731

Interesting read but that was a "local" / regional issue that had nothing to do with Americans or it's allies. Crimes against your own people and crimes against humanity in general has always existed. KKK is a good example...not only did the US do nothing when black (women and children) were tortured , burned alive, balls cut off, hanged, and beheaded and raped...our government actually encouraged it and sponsored it.

So Nanking and Unit 731 is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black....

[monosylab1k]

Watch White Light/Black Rain, excellent documentary about the bombings.

Also, this Chomsky quote is the ultimate truth bomb.

"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged."

[Koolaid_Man]

one more thing Deads...the US has a history of doing shit like Unit 731..they're just real good at hiding it...but here's one of the more infamous ones that reached the public light:

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment#cite_note-timeline-1) conducted between 1932 and 1972 - where the US Govnt. injected black men with diseases to study the natural progression of the disease. It primarily states syphilis but they injected these black men with all sorts of shit (and watched them die slowly) and made them think they were receiving free health care from the U.S. government.

Google that shit

[Proxy]

Atomic Bombs were far from justified. Japan was already defeated after all the fire bombings unless you consider it a necessary evil in terms of taking the country before Stalin made us divide it too.

[DeadlyDynasty]

one more thing Deads...the US has a history of doing shit like Unit 731..they're just real good at hiding it...but here's one of the more infamous ones that reached the public light:

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment conducted between 1932 and 1972 - where the US Govnt. injected black men with diseases to study the natural progression of the disease. It primarily states syphilis but they injected these black men with all sorts of shit (and watched them die slowly) and made them think they were receiving free health care from the U.S. government.

Google that shit

I'm well aware of the Tuskegee exps...fucked up shit. I'm not a jingoist, and the U.S. has more skeletons in their closet than most--which is why I brought up the Dresden bombing. The A-bomb attacks were by definition acts of terror--but the Japs were fighting down to the last man in almost every pacific battle and a mainland invasion could've killed close to million(s) when all was said and done. Horrible, but unfortunately necessary imho given the circumstances.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Watch White Light/Black Rain, excellent documentary about the bombings.

That was an HBO doc iirc, right? I'll have to check it out

[Koolaid_Man]

I'm well aware of the Tuskegee exps...fucked up shit. I'm not a jingoist, and the U.S. has more skeletons in their closet than most--which is why I brought up the Dresden bombing. The A-bomb attacks were by definition acts of terror--but the Japs were fighting down to the last man in almost every pacific battle and a mainland invasion could've killed close to million(s) when all was said and done. Horrible, but unfortunately necessary imho given the circumstances.

Back then I would feel more comfortable with ground invasion but today I support the drones as long as the cowards hide behind their women and children that's their burden to bear not the US.

[td4mvp2k]

Back then I would feel more comfortable with ground invasion but today I support the drones as long as the cowards hide behind their women and children that's their burden to bear not the US.

dont say that to SA210


:lmao I like how everyone keeps ignoring the mass murder done by Obama..5000 innocents but no martial law and 9000 cops to arrest him in D.C lol


Gotta go fellas..I have a life, makin a bacon wrapped turkey dinner for my mom's birthday..Yum!

Stay brainwashed my friends :tu lol

[Koolaid_Man]

dont say that to SA210

SA210 scared of me....he start talking shit and he knows Imma hit him with this:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/obama_drones_zps1e441887.jpg


Imma go video game mode on his ass :lol
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/callindrones_zps63a08d71.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

Is this what they teach you kids these days? smh
See why I call them schools of indoctrination?

[Wild Cobra]

Atomic Bombs were far from justified. Japan was already defeated after all the fire bombings unless you consider it a necessary evil in terms of taking the country before Stalin made us divide it too.
How do you figure? They were still attacking. They refused to surrender after the first bomb, so we gave them a second one. Then they surrendered.

[Koolaid_Man]

See why I call them schools of indoctrination?

Barrack "Barry" Is Literally The Greatest President In American History...no American president has been as loved at home and abroad to the scale this man has....He's made a difference and his name will live on through-out eternity..it's such an honored position to be in...

[Koolaid_Man]

See why I call them schools of indoctrination?

I consider myself an OBAMA BOT :lol

[Proxy]

How do you figure? They were still attacking. They refused to surrender after the first bomb, so we gave them a second one. Then they surrendered.

By that time, B-29 attacks had decimated Japan and using the bombs was insurance on keeping Japan for ourselves. Stalin was already mobilizing to "aid" us... we didn't want to share Japan with the USSR. WW2 and cold war overlap the way I see it.

[redzero]

On one hand, lots of innocent civilians died. On the other hand, Godzilla. Fair trade.

[Wild Cobra]

By that time, B-29 attacks had decimated Japan and using the bombs was insurance on keeping Japan for ourselves. Stalin was already mobilizing to "aid" us... we didn't want to share Japan with the USSR. WW2 and cold war overlap the way I see it.
So you agree. Japan had not stopped fighting us.

[HI-FI]

So when the US attacks Japanese citizens in the name of "war" you're ok with that...why not go after their military bases and emperor palaces....instead we wanted to kill women and children enmass to send a very evil message. The Japanese didn't hide behind their women and children like Islamic extremists do...so there was no excuse for the bomb...we can't decry terrorism when it's convenient...all we have to do is acknowledge that the birth place of modern day terror started in the US, transformed into the KKK and now the various militia groups around the country...

Koolaid_Stout with the in/out, philosophical and moral conundrum game.

[Proxy]

So you agree. Japan had not stopped fighting us.

If their army was decimated, then what was there to attack with?

[Wild Cobra]

If their army was decimated, then what was there to attack with?
Really? what about the rest of their military?

Link please.

[Latarian Milton]

japs had violated countless international conventions & protocols in china and other occupied countries though. motherfuckers attacked pearl harbor w/o declaration of war and americans had to make them pay for their mistakes. americans suffered heavy casualities fighting over those pacific islands and it was estimated that hundreds of thousands of more american soldiers would lose their lives before they could hit tokyo. atom bombs indeed saved MANY american lives and that's all i fucking care about tbh.

[Proxy]

Really? what about the rest of their military?

Link please.

The bomb was a political move. The firebombing stats before Hiroshima and Nagasaki are telling. Consider the state of the axis at the time too.

You can google for arguments against the nukes...

[Proxy]

japs had violated countless international conventions & protocols in china and other occupied countries though. motherfuckers attacked pearl harbor w/o declaration of war and americans had to make them pay for their mistakes. americans suffered heavy casualities fighting over those pacific islands and it was estimated that hundreds of thousands of more american soldiers would lose their lives before they could hit tokyo. atom bombs indeed saved MANY american lives and that's all i fucking care about tbh.

This seems to be the reason we all recite when trying to justify the bombs, but it's bullshit. Drop the first bomb in a remote vicinity if you want to compare dick size. Hiroshima was overkill and the second was mindless. The casualties are largely innocent people and the cities had little to no strategic value.

[DMC]

Negative...dropping bombs on the Japs was an act of Terrorism by the US. It was a complete violation of the rules of war. They attacked our military and in turn we attacked their civilians.. why do you think there's so much terrorism in the world today...its because the US provided the blue prints by attacking innocent civilians. As usual though US citizens are ill informed or simply like to turn a blind eye. Terrorists are doing nothing but copying our style.

Terrorism by governments is fine if it's to terrorize the other country's military. It's not for civilians though. The US hasn't set out to terrorize civilians.

Do you think there were no civies killed in the Pearl Harbor attacks? There were almost 70 civilians killed in that attack. The response doesn't need to be equal, it should be greater to end the fight and it was. Anyhow it seems there were plenty japs left to reproduce. They haven't fucked with us since.

Shock and Awe

[EVAY]

scro, look up Rape of Nanking and Unit 731

This.

[EVAY]

do you consider the Allied bombing of Dresden in a similar light--or as a war crime?

I have wondered about this a lot. I agree that the dropping of the atomic bombs were very close to a 'necessary evil', but I don't think the same of the Dresden bombing. Japan was nowhere close to military surrender when the bombs were dropped.

The Dresden bombings seemed to be some sort of "watch how bad I can make this", and Germany was manifestly at the end of its military rope. And the German people and the German military all knew it.

Before the atom bombs were dropped in Japan, there was no particular notion that Japan was anywhere close to military surrender. The war was expected to last until at least 1947, and military planners (who had no idea that there was such a thing as an atomic bomb) were planning for a long and highly costly (in terms of military and civilian deaths) invasion that was projected to have well over a million casualties, probably on each side. One of the reasons that the bombs prompted the surrender was because the success of the bombs brought the USSR into the war against Japan in China. It was the requirement of a second front and a war with Russia that had as much or more to do with the realization of military uselessness on the part of the Japanese Emperor as did the damage by the atomic bombs.

And there was an attempted coup the night before the surrender in which some elements of the Japanese Military tried to take over the government and destroy the recording of the Emperor commanding his people to surrender.

There is some bad history being promulgated on this forum regarding Japan's behavior during the Second World War. And some bad history about the U.S.'s response as well.

All that notwithstanding, Dresden was essentially the forerunner for the relentless firebombing of Japanese cities even before the atomic bombs were dropped.

[EVAY]

The firebombings of Japanese cities by Curtis LeMay and his group frankly did actually more damage than the atomic bombs did. Part of all of these bombing decisions was a function of the relatively new "Air Forces" trying to convince the political powers that they could end the war by themselves.

[EVAY]

^^^^That is perhaps the same rationale that they were trying to use in Dresden. I don't know. But I know that they knew that there were a lot of refugees there, and little to no military value.

Sort of like Coventry in England.

[Wild Cobra]

The bomb was a political move. The firebombing stats before Hiroshima and Nagasaki are telling. Consider the state of the axis at the time too.

You can google for arguments against the nukes...
Yes, I know, it is still controversial today. The fact is, Japan kept on fighting until after the second nuke. Can you dispute that?

I see you have no link showing their military was decimated.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

SA210 scared of me....he start talking shit and he knows Imma hit him with this:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/obama_drones_zps1e441887.jpg


Imma go video game mode on his ass :lol
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/callindrones_zps63a08d71.jpg

This is still my favorite one :lol

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7QndtAp7sJ8/URwgWlMgJ1I/AAAAAAAAA4g/SM7COm1MJK0/s1600/533578_562543870425050_79430966_n.jpg

[Thread]

Negative...dropping bombs on the Japs was an act of Terrorism by the US.

It was an act of vengeance. & has cut down admirably on the Sunday morning wake up calls going forward.

[hater]

nukes are overrated. IMO they a new beginning for peeps. we need more nukes launched and fired. like a flower blossoming one day after another. it's really not a big deal IMO

[Thread]

nukes are overrated. IMO they a new beginning for peeps. we need more nukes launched and fired. like a flower blossoming one day after another. it's really not a big deal IMO

Just don't do it on white people. We were judicious in '45 sparing the God fearing Germans. But, the Germans didn't wake us up 7 o'clock in the gd morning raisin' all sorts of Hell. Yellow people did. Truman didn't have a problem with that decision, eh?

tee, hee.

[hater]

Just don't do it on white people. We were judicious in '45 sparing the God fearing Germans. But, the Germans didn't wake us up 7 o'clock in the gd morning raisin' all sorts of Hell. Yellow people did. Truman didn't have a problem with that decision, eh?

tee, hee.

white ppl need to burn in the nuclear fire. otherwise it's a waste of nuke IMO

[Thread]

white ppl need to burn in the nuclear fire. otherwise it's a waste of nuke IMO

& the Soviets swore up & down they was going to do exactly that...started by packin' their shit up in Cuba and ended by selling the same yellow made worthless shit over the counter that we do.

[hater]

& the Soviets swore up & down they was going to do exactly that...started by packin' their shit up in Cuba and ended by selling the same yellow made worthless shit over the counter that we do.

and white ppl need to burn in the nuclear fire otherwise its a waste of radioactive material IMO

[DeadlyDynasty]

^^^^That is perhaps the same rationale that they were trying to use in Dresden. I don't know. But I know that they knew that there were a lot of refugees there, and little to no military value.

Sort of like Coventry in England.
I had forgotten about Coventry. No wonder Churchill was so adamant about bombing Dresden

[DeadlyDynasty]

Just don't do it on white people. We were judicious in '45 sparing the God fearing Germans. But, the Germans didn't wake us up 7 o'clock in the gd morning raisin' all sorts of Hell. Yellow people did. Truman didn't have a problem with that decision, eh?

tee, hee.
Yup. 1941 was a pretty big "we dun fucked up" year by the Axis Powers. The Nips woke a sleeping giant and Hitler overextended himself by invading Russia.

[hater]

I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' ******s, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass.

[EVAY]

Yup. 1941 was a pretty big "we dun fucked up" year by the Axis Powers. The Nips woke a sleeping giant and Hitler overextended himself by invading Russia.

And then declared war on the U.S., guaranteeing a two front naval war as well as a two-front ground war. Plus, declaring war on the U.S. brought the greatest industrial clout on the planet into the war for the Allies. Even Russia couldn't get going early on without war materiel from the U.S. Trucks, tanks and planes were all brought in from the U.S. to aid the Russian war effort.

In fact Russia was the only WWII participant who really never fought a two-front war.

[EVAY]

I had forgotten about Coventry. No wonder Churchill was so adamant about bombing Dresden

From what I've read, Dresden was primarily a function of British Air Chief Harris. That man really wanted to make the case that the Air Corps could end the war.

[The Reckoning]

lol people trying to equate today's logic and what we know about nukes with what we thought back then.

truth bomb - id imagine there would be overwhelming support by the US public to consider any alternative other than invading the Japanese mainland. if it meant a quick end to the war then so be it. plus the soviets were already in manchuria and tensions were already high about dividing germany. having to divide both germany and japan would be disastrous diplomacy-wise. i think the US had to flex their muscles and end it quick before russia could make a significant foothold.

and with dresden id imagine the allies would do anything to avoid having a stalingrad-like situation when invading germany. perhaps they were showing off their own airpower to the russians, seeing that dresden is in east germany.

[Cane]

Wars are nothing but crimes :depressed

Back to fried rice...it took not one but two a-bombs and the Soviets invading for the Empire to surrender. That's some crazy Last Samurai shit :wow

[Koolaid_Man]

Terrorism by governments is fine if it's to terrorize the other country's military. It's not for civilians though. The US hasn't set out to terrorize civilians.

Do you think there were no civies killed in the Pearl Harbor attacks? There were almost 70 civilians killed in that attack. The response doesn't need to be equal, it should be greater to end the fight and it was. Anyhow it seems there were plenty japs left to reproduce. They haven't fucked with us since.

Shock and Awe

^ when they nuked the Japs they did...it wasn't about going after their military it's sole intent was to inflict damage of their "civilian" non war combatants...Do I think no civilians were killed in PH...of course not like you mention about 70 or so were killed but it's the intent...they attacked a military base they didn't aim to target civilian areas. The US on the other hand set out to attack civilian and not military infrastructure.

[DMC]

How do you attack military infrastructure with an atomic bomb and not kill civilians? It's an island.

[Koolaid_Man]

How do you attack military infrastructure with an atomic bomb and not kill civilians? It's an island.

You don't that's the whole point numnuts :lol

again what was the US intent..a major part of their intent was to kill women and children there's no way to wiggle around it...it was US Evil at it's finest

[DMC]

You don't that's the whole point numnuts :lol

again what was the US intent..a major part of their intent was to kill women and children there's no way to wiggle around it...it was US Evil at it's finest

Their intent was to end the war. We were losing thousands of men. Revisionist history might allow you to put modern Japan back 70 years, but it was a different world. Were were attacked unprovoked. Fuck with the bull, get the horns.

[Wild Cobra]

If I recall, thousands of Japanese committed suicide when they were told their leader surrendered. Civilians were ready to fight us, because they were told how evil we were, as a propaganda thing. They were afraid we would kill them, so they killed themselves first.

[Proxy]

Yes, I know, it is still controversial today. The fact is, Japan kept on fighting until after the second nuke. Can you dispute that?

I see you have no link showing their military was decimated.

I'm not quoting anything specifically when I say that. Once we had the surrounding islands, it was over. They didn't have anything to hit the B29s at their altitude so casualties on our side were insignificant compared to the insane numbers they were losing. Their imports were cut off and the axis was done for. They were geographically surrounded...

[Wild Cobra]

I'm not quoting anything specifically when I say that. Once we had the surrounding islands, it was over. They didn't have anything to hit the B29s at their altitude so casualties on our side were insignificant compared to the insane numbers they were losing. Their imports were cut off and the axis was done for. They were geographically surrounded...
Believe as you wish. My uncle would disagree with you, and be able to back it up. He died a few years ago though.

[Avante]

The point was made, you attack us we will blow your world away.

[Proxy]

Believe as you wish. My uncle would disagree with you, and be able to back it up. He died a few years ago though.

Sorry to hear that. I'm sure I'd enjoy listening to him.