Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...

[da_suns_fan]

If you do any query on a high number of points, rebounds, blocks etc you will see hes usually WAY behind Shaq, behind Barkley and Malone and often behind even Jordan.

For instance:

Since 1985, number of games a player had 40 points and ten rebounds...Duncan is seventeenth and behind the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, McGrady, Carmelo etc. Shaq is head and shoulders above everyone else




1 Shaquille O'Neal 55
2 Michael Jordan 35
..
..
17 Tim Duncan F 9

Okay...forget the big 40 point games..hes got to be tops for consistency sinces hes "greatest PF of all time", right?

Number of games a player had 30 pts and 10 rebounds:



1 Karl Malone* 349
2 Shaquille O'Neal C 296
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* 215
4 Charles Barkley* F 211
5 Patrick Ewing* C 161
6 David Robinson* C 145
7 Tim Duncan F 138

Duncans not even close to the likes of Barkley whos not even close to Shaq whos not even close to Karl Malone.

How about 30 points and 20 rebounds:


1 Shaquille O'Neal C 28
2 Charles Barkley* F 27
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* 16
4 Tim Duncan F 10

Duncans fourth but not even close to Barkley or Shaq.

Okay..well lets throw in blocks (since Duncan is really a center pretending to be a PF)...30 points, 10 rebounds AND two blocks:


1 Shaquille O'Neal C 210
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* 184
3 Patrick Ewing* C 127
4 David Robinson* C 119
5 Tim Duncan F 98

Duncans a respectable fifth..but again he doesnt even have HALF as many games as Shaq! Can that be right?!!



Final thougths: Its a good think Duncan lists himself as a power forward because he was never even CLOSE to as dominant as Shaq. As far as forwards go, he has "the rings" but really never matched Barkley in terms of talent or the long term consistency of Malone. You can understand why hes always labeled "boring" when he really never really had the "big" games as often as his peers.

[Bynumite]

Could you boil it down?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Could you boil it down?
:lmao

[TDMVPDPOY]

compared stat padders to someone who only needs 20/10 to win games...cmon man dont play that card

[ambchang]

Duncan's really consistent. We already know this.

Great analysis.

[Arcadian]

Tim was never a "big numbers in the regular season" guy (except for his 2 MVP seasons). Nonetheless, when you watch him play it is obvious that he was the best player on the floor against any competition. He does a lot of things that aren't reflected in the traditional stats (advanced stats are helpful). However, his playoff stats are more impressive.

[Clipper Nation]

:lmao da_suns_fag's takes
:lmao "Barkley > Duncan"
:lmao "Karl Malone > Duncan"
:lmao "Kenneth Faried > Melo"

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Boiled down:::

4 Rings

3 Finals MVPs

2 MVPs

Let us proceed...

[Thread]

Could you boil it down?

Sure,,,

Kobe: 5

the tired old tramp stamp Duncan: 4

[ambchang]

BTW, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

With the first criteria, you are saying Shaq > Jordan
Then in the second criteria, you are saying Malone > Hakeem, while all 7 > Jordan
In the 3rd criteria, you are saying Barkley > Hakeem, and all 4 > Jordan
In the 4th criteria, you are saying Ewing > Duncan, and all five > Jordan?

I guess Jordan really sucked then.

[Thread]

BTW, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

With the first criteria, you are saying Shaq > Jordan
Then in the second criteria, you are saying Malone > Hakeem, while all 7 > Jordan
In the 3rd criteria, you are saying Barkley > Hakeem, and all 4 > Jordan
In the 4th criteria, you are saying Ewing > Duncan, and all five > Jordan?

I guess Jordan really sucked then.

He's trying to say Duncan takes it up the ass by other guys.

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan's really consistent. We already know this.

Great analysis.

Except hes really not.

He barely has half as many "25 points, 10 rebound" games as Malone and he'll retire without even get close to Barkley:

1 Karl Malone* F 600
2 Shaquille O'Neal C 520
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* 411
4 Charles Barkley* F 377
5 Tim Duncan F 314

[da_suns_fan]

BTW, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

With the first criteria, you are saying Shaq > Jordan
Then in the second criteria, you are saying Malone > Hakeem, while all 7 > Jordan
In the 3rd criteria, you are saying Barkley > Hakeem, and all 4 > Jordan
In the 4th criteria, you are saying Ewing > Duncan, and all five > Jordan?

I guess Jordan really sucked then.

Im saying Jordan had more amazing games using "forward/center" statistics than Duncan did (and Jordans not even a F/C).

Try to keep up.

[Bynumite]

Sure,,,

Kobe: 5

the tired old tramp stamp Duncan: 4

I appreciate it. Great analysis.

[spurraider21]

Tim Duncan, unlike Malone learned that its not all about chasing scoring records, but about making teammates better and only taking over when need be

[ambchang]

Except hes really not.

He barely has half as many "25 points, 10 rebound" games as Malone and he'll retire without even get close to Barkley:

1 Karl Malone* F 600
2 Shaquille O'Neal C 520
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* 411
4 Charles Barkley* F 377
5 Tim Duncan F 314

Why would 25/10 games be the standard of consistency? Would a player averaging 20/10 and notching all games with 20/10 be less consistent than a guy averaging 20/10 with a bunch of 25/10 games? I would imagine the word consistency actually say the first player is more consistent.


Im saying Jordan had more amazing games using "forward/center" statistics than Duncan did (and Jordans not even a F/C).

Try to keep up.


How so? You just wrote that Duncan had MJ beat in 3 of the 4 categories? Could you please keep up with what you wrote?

[DAF86]

One little detail that you're missing from your analysis is defense. Duncan is arguably the best defender out of all those listed there.

[KL2]

One little detail that you're missing from your analysis is defense. Duncan is arguably the best defender out of all those listed there.


Suns fan doesn't know what defense is.

[Thread]

Suns fan doesn't know what defense is.

Thank Christ, otherwise O & 45 wouldn't be O & 45.

[da_suns_fan]

Why would 25/10 games be the standard of consistency? Would a player averaging 20/10 and notching all games with 20/10 be less consistent than a guy averaging 20/10 with a bunch of 25/10 games? I would imagine the word consistency actually say the first player is more consistent.


How so? You just wrote that Duncan had MJ beat in 3 of the 4 categories? Could you please keep up with what you wrote?


Number of 20/10 games:


1 Karl Malone* F 818
2 Shaquille O'Neal C 723
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* 598
4 Tim Duncan F 570
5 Charles Barkley* F 558

Anyway you slice it, Duncan gets a big "meh".

As far as Jordan/Duncan, youre probably too dense to understand: Jordan had far more 40/10 games even though he was a shooting guard (who tend not to have double digit rebounds) because it was FAR more likely that Jordan would grab 10 rebounds (to go along with his usual 40 points) than Duncan having a 40 point game (to go along with his usual ten rebounds). And its not just Jordan. Its Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Melo etc.

Bottom line: Duncan isnt a great scorer.

[Seventyniner]

:lol "yay points" definition of greatness
:lol would say Gervin > Duncan if he was a Spurs fan

[Arcadian]

Only someone know didn't watch Duncan play in his prime would think he wasn't a great scorer. Boy, was he...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QURRXrYQ9yI

[da_suns_fan]

:lol "yay points" definition of greatness
:lol would say Gervin > Duncan if he was a Spurs fan


"Yay points" thesis indicates it doesnt matter how many times you miss as long as you score points. So lets throw in "and shot the ball well":

20 points, 10 rebounds AND shot at least 50%:


1 Shaquille O'Neal C 612
2 Karl Malone* F 502
3 Charles Barkley* F 436
4 Hakeem Olajuwon* 417
5 Tim Duncan F 388

[DMC]

OP thinks a revolver is a semi-automatic.

Nothing to see here.

[ambchang]

Number of 20/10 games:



Anyway you slice it, Duncan gets a big "meh".

As far as Jordan/Duncan, youre probably too dense to understand: Jordan had far more 40/10 games even though he was a shooting guard (who tend not to have double digit rebounds) because it was FAR more likely that Jordan would grab 10 rebounds (to go along with his usual 40 points) than Duncan having a 40 point game (to go along with his usual ten rebounds). And its not just Jordan. Its Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Melo etc.

Bottom line: Duncan isnt a great scorer.

So now all of a sudden, Duncan > Barkley? How do you determine the criteria? Did you take into account pace? How was the criteria determined? Was opposition and teammates factored in? Not exactly sure how this worked.

As for the Jordan comment, why are you ignoring 3 of the 4 criterion you set yourself when comparing Jordan to Duncan and declared Jordan the winner despite Duncan was "better" in 3 of the 4 criterion? You my be too dense to realize this, but you just contradicted yourself.

[LkrFan]

Could you boil it down?
:lol

[LkrFan]

He's trying to say Duncan takes it up the ass by other guys.
:lmao

[LkrFan]

Im saying Jordan had more amazing games using "forward/center" statistics than Duncan did (and Jordans not even a F/C).

Try to keep up.
:wow :lol

[LkrFan]

One little detail that you're missing from your analysis is defense. Duncan is arguably the best defender out of all those listed there.
That's not true. MJ won DPOY in '88 IIRC. To do so in the '80s is no small feat. TD never won det award. :elephant

[benstanfield]

It's almost as if his game is reliant on team-centric fundamentals that aren't measured and reported by the sports media. Crazy!

[da_suns_fan]

So now all of a sudden, Duncan > Barkley? How do you determine the criteria? Did you take into account pace? How was the criteria determined? Was opposition and teammates factored in? Not exactly sure how this worked.

As for the Jordan comment, why are you ignoring 3 of the 4 criterion you set yourself when comparing Jordan to Duncan and declared Jordan the winner despite Duncan was "better" in 3 of the 4 criterion? You my be too dense to realize this, but you just contradicted yourself.

No..Spurs fans argue that Duncan didnt have "great games" but a ton of "good games" yet he didnt nearly as many "good games" as either Malone or Shaq.

Barkley didnt have as many "good games" as Duncan but in his own way he was better than anyone else.

Number of 20 point/20 rebound games:

1 Charles Barkley* F 53
2 Shaquille O'Neal C 49
3 Dwight Howard C 47
4 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 41
5 Tim Duncan F 31

You see now?

As far as Duncan/Jordan, youre either an idiot or just pretending to be. Duncan didnt have as many great games as his peers (title of thread). The first query reveals several wings had far more 40 point/10 rebound games than Duncan did because Duncan's not a great scorer.

Hes not a great scorer. Hes not a great rebounder. He's consistently "good" at both but not nearly as consistent as Malone or Shaq.

And no, i did not factor in "pace". Funny that Shaq/Barkley/Malone dont need the EXCUSES that spurs fans give Duncan.

[LkrFan]

Number of 20/10 games:



Anyway you slice it, Duncan gets a big "meh".

As far as Jordan/Duncan, youre probably too dense to understand: Jordan had far more 40/10 games even though he was a shooting guard (who tend not to have double digit rebounds) because it was FAR more likely that Jordan would grab 10 rebounds (to go along with his usual 40 points) than Duncan having a 40 point game (to go along with his usual ten rebounds). And its not just Jordan. Its Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Melo etc.

Bottom line: Duncan isnt a great scorer.
Shit just got real...bad for Duncan Fanbois :corn:

[da_suns_fan]

Shit just got real...bad for Duncan Fanbois :corn:

True. This is where they use deflection to try and avoid the truth.

[DAF86]

No..Spurs fans argue that Duncan didnt have "great games" but a ton of "good games" yet he didnt nearly as many "good games" as either Malone or Shaq.

Barkley didnt have as many "good games" as Duncan but in his own way he was better than anyone else.

Number of 20 point/20 rebound games:


You see now?

As far as Duncan/Jordan, youre either an idiot or just pretending to be. Duncan didnt have as many great games as his peers (title of thread). The first query reveals several wings had far more 40 point/10 rebound games than Duncan did because Duncan's not a great scorer.

Hes not a great scorer. Hes not a great rebounder. He's consistently "good" at both but not nearly as consistent as Malone or Shaq.

And no, i did not factor in "pace". Funny that Shaq/Barkley/Malone dont need the EXCUSES that spurs fans give Duncan.

Duncan doesn't need any excuse, tbh. He won 4 tittles as the best player of his team.

[cd98]

And yet Duncan was the MVP in three out of four championships (runner up in the 4th championship). What good did it do Malone and Barkley to have a few dominant games when the end result was they lost. I think they would both trade their dominant games for one of Duncan's championships.

[Richie]

Duncan has never put up the scoring numbers of someone like Shaq, but the Spurs were always a very slow paced team which focused on defence. It's hard to measure Duncans defensive contribution, but he led the league in defensive win shares 6 times and will likely retire as 2nd all time behind Bill Russell.

Although if you wanna look at big games in big moments, how many players have been so close to a quadruple double in the Finals?

[DMC]

The premise of the OP is true. It's not a great game that separates a player from his peers. It's his body of work. Tim's body of work is beyond reproach.

[ambchang]

No..Spurs fans argue that Duncan didnt have "great games" but a ton of "good games" yet he didnt nearly as many "good games" as either Malone or Shaq.

Barkley didnt have as many "good games" as Duncan but in his own way he was better than anyone else.

Number of 20 point/20 rebound games:


You see now?

As far as Duncan/Jordan, youre either an idiot or just pretending to be. Duncan didnyt have as many great games as his peers (title of thread). The first query reveals several wings had far more 40 point/10 rebound games than Duncan did because Duncan's not a great scorer.

Hes not a great scorer. Hes not a great rebounder. He's consistently "good" at both but not nearly as consistent as Malone or Shaq.

And no, i did not factor in "pace". Funny that Shaq/Barkley/Malone dont need the EXCUSES that spurs fans give Duncan.

The issue is that these criterion are just drawn up on a whim. Who determines these as good or great games? And what does it matter? And didn't you just say Howard > Hakeem? Along with other inconsistencies. You just proved your own criteria to be faulty. It's like saying sleepy Floyd have more 28 point playoff quarters than Jordan, therefore sleepy is a better scorer.

An you didn't answer the Jordan issue at all. You listed 5 criterion, then said Jordan > Duncan even in big men stats despite Duncan beating Jordan in three out of 4. It's one thing to be an idiot , unite another to be an idiot and accusing others to be one like you just did.

As for pace, it's a very important part of statistics. Pretty much all advanced stats take pace I to account because of the relevance. You listing it as an excuse pretty much barred you from ever being any kind of authority on stats

[DMC]

That's not true. MJ won DPOY in '88 IIRC. To do so in the '80s is no small feat. TD never won det award. :elephant

Howard did a few times. How's that holding up?

[DMC]

He's trying to say Duncan takes it up the ass by other guys.

Get yours where you can find it. Lord knows you'll be hungry here soon enough.

[024]

This isn't really surprising:

1. Duncan's play always emphasized his teammates. He could take more shot attempts and up his scoring but he would have won less games. It's a team game. Like what Lebron said, he could easily be the top scorer in the league every year but that's not his goal. His goal is to help his team win games.
2. Duncan never was blessed with the athleticism and/or strength like Drob or Barkley. He certainly wasn't like Shaq, who can just plow through double teams. Therefore if he sees a passing opportunity, he'll pass it to his teammates. Instead of beating opposing teams through sheer power and athleticism, when a double team comes, he beats them instead by finding an open player. It's very trusting of him and his teammates have rewarded him.

[LkrFan]

?
:lol "yay points" definition of greatness
:lol would say Gervin > Duncan if he was a Spurs fan
Although he could defend, what was MJ known for? What about Shaq? Barkley? Kobe? Malone? Etc, etc, etc?

NONE of the above will make the HOF for anything more than their ability to score. The only person I can think of that made the HOF strictly due to his ability to defend and rebound? Rodman.

:lol at the BNSFs on this board trying to diminish any player's ability to score to keep the TOSB relevant. :downspin:

[capek]

Tim Duncan, unlike Malone learned that its not all about chasing scoring records, but about making teammates better and only taking over when need be

/Thread

Winning>Individual numbers

[LkrFan]

Howard did a few times. How's that holding up?
3x DPOY to be exact. Stop deflecting and stay on topic. :tu

[da_suns_fan]

The issue is that these criterion are just drawn up on a whim. Who determines these as good or great games? And what does it matter? And didn't you just say Howard > Hakeem? Along with other inconsistencies. You just proved your own criteria to be faulty. It's like saying sleepy Floyd have more 28 point playoff quarters than Jordan, therefore sleepy is a better scorer.

An you didn't answer the Jordan issue at all. You listed 5 criterion, then said Jordan > Duncan even in big men stats despite Duncan beating Jordan in three out of 4. It's one thing to be an idiot , unite another to be an idiot and accusing others to be one like you just did.

As for pace, it's a very important part of statistics. Pretty much all advanced stats take pace I to account because of the relevance. You listing it as an excuse pretty much barred you from ever being any kind of authority on stats

LOL! Im "defining the criteria"? I didnt know it wasnt common knowledge what constitutes a "great game" (points, rebounds, blocks, shoot well etc). Ive used criteria to factor in shooting percentage. I'll use any "criteria" you want. Duncan is consistently behind Shaq, Barkley, Malone and Hakeem.

And no, I didnt say Howard > Hakeem. I said said howard had more big games according to one particular query (i dont even know which one youre talking about). But who cares? Hakeem will have more games than Howard in almost other relevant queries used to judge an big man's individual performance.

Im not cherry-picking a single query. Ive listed a dozen. Duncan's been labeled "boring" his entire career and the stats back that narrative up.

[Drachen]

Why would 25/10 games be the standard of consistency? Would a player averaging 20/10 and notching all games with 20/10 be less consistent than a guy averaging 20/10 with a bunch of 25/10 games? I would imagine the word consistency actually say the first player is more consistent.




How so? You just wrote that Duncan had MJ beat in 3 of the 4 categories? Could you please keep up with what you wrote?


If you want consistency, you are going to have to run a regression analysis of all of his games and find out what the standard deviation is. Whomever has the lowest wins your consistency argument. (ambchang, I was just piggybacking off of your argument, this isn't directed at you),.

[DMC]

Rank
Player
PER


1.
Michael Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html)*
27.91


2.
LeBron James (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html)
27.65


3.
Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html)
26.43


4.
David Robinson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html)*
26.18


5.
Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html)*
26.13


6.
Chris Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html)
25.55


7.
Dwyane Wade (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html)
25.53


8.
Bob Pettit (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pettibo01.html)*
25.35


9.
Tim Duncan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html)
24.73


10.
Neil Johnston (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsne01.html)*
24.69


11.
Charles Barkley (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html)*
24.63


12.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html)*
24.58


13.
Magic Johnson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html)*
24.11


14.
Karl Malone (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html)*
23.90


15.
Kevin Durant (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html)
23.60


16.
Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html)*
23.59


17.
Julius Erving (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html)*
23.58


18.
Larry Bird (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html)*
23.50


19.
Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html)
23.47


20.
Kobe Bryant (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html)
23.41


21.
Oscar Robertson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html)*
23.17


22.
Kevin Garnett (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html)
23.14

[Thread]

If you want consistency, you are going to have to run a regression analysis of all of his games and find out what the standard deviation is. Whomever has the lowest wins your consistency argument. (ambchang, I was just piggybacking off of your argument, this isn't directed at you),.

Or, do this:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

[DMC]

LOL! Im "defining the criteria"? I didnt know it wasnt common knowledge what constitutes a "great game" (points, rebounds, blocks, shoot well etc). Ive used criteria to factor in shooting percentage. I'll use any "criteria" you want. Duncan is consistently behind Shaq, Barkley, Malone and Hakeem.

And no, I didnt say Howard > Hakeem. I said said howard had more big games according to one particular query (i dont even know which one youre talking about). But who cares? Hakeem will have more games than Howard in almost other relevant queries used to judge an big man's individual performance.

Im not cherry-picking a single query. Ive listed a dozen. Duncan's been labeled "boring" his entire career and the stats back that narrative up.

lol head coach and franchise player switched sides, now playing for LA. LOL Gay president.

[da_suns_fan]

lol head coach and franchise player switched sides, now playing for LA. LOL Gay president.

Nice attempt at deflection but Rick Welts actually works for the Warriors now (and has been for the last couple of years).

[LkrFan]

No..Spurs fans argue that Duncan didnt have "great games" but a ton of "good games" yet he didnt nearly as many "good games" as either Malone or Shaq.

Barkley didnt have as many "good games" as Duncan but in his own way he was better than anyone else.

Number of 20 point/20 rebound games:


You see now?

As far as Duncan/Jordan, youre either an idiot or just pretending to be. Duncan didnt have as many great games as his peers (title of thread). The first query reveals several wings had far more 40 point/10 rebound games than Duncan did because Duncan's not a great scorer.

Hes not a great scorer. Hes not a great rebounder. He's consistently "good" at both but not nearly as consistent as Malone or Shaq.

And no, i did not factor in "pace". Funny that Shaq/Barkley/Malone dont need the EXCUSES that spurs fans give Duncan.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/ad86d381947368b93fbbf17590f7779c/tumblr_mf7x3zfDtY1qlepg7o1_r4_500.gif

[Johnny RIngo]

Final thougths: Its a good think Duncan lists himself as a power forward because

Don't know why people have such a bug up their ass about Duncan being a forward or center...as if he's the only one to play multiple positions. Westbrook's a shooting guard, Dirk's a jump shooting center, Magic was a 6'9'' point, Barkley played the three when he was in Philly, etc.


he was never even CLOSE to as dominant as Shaq.

I don't think anyone's going to argue this. Shaq's the most dominant big in NBA history. In certain metrics, his advanced numbers are more impressive than Jordan's.


As far as forwards go, he has "the rings" but really never matched Barkley in terms of talent

Barkley was certainly gifted on the offensive side but his all-time standing is diminished due to his AWFUL AWFUL defense.


or the long term consistency of Malone.

Malone's one of the GOAT as far longevity goes so I'm not sure why you even bring it up. In fact, longevity is the only argument left in Malone's favor after his multiple post-season failures. LOL at his .526 TS% in the playoffs. If he actually played up to his(inflated) regular season stats(.577 TS% :wow), he might have a ring or two. A choke artist - plain and simple.


You can understand why hes always labeled "boring" when he really never really had the "big" games as often as his peers.

Didn't take long for the Suns fan to revert back to the boring, ratings championship argument.

[spurraider21]

That's fine. I'd take the guy that will 20-10 all season until a ring over a guy that might score 50 one game then shoot 8-30 the next night. Would you rather have Chauncey Billups or Allen Iverson

[mercos]

Duncan rode those "meh" statistics to 4 rings in 8 years. Barkley and Malone have 0 between them. The argument that either one of them is better than Duncan ends there. And the whole Jordan blocked them from getting a ring argument is bunk. Duncan had to go through a Laker team with Shaq and Kobe for over half a decade.

[Fergie The Florists]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs18/f/2007/137/2/e/nWo_Style_Wallpaper_by_lucapoison.jpg

[LkrFan]

Duncan doesn't need any excuse, tbh. He won 4 tittles as the best player of his team.
mid told me that's a team accomplishment. How is that relevant to this thread? "titles" not "tittles" - unless you are accounting for his tongue ring and tramp stamp. :lol

[DMC]

Nice attempt at deflection but Rick Welts actually works for the Warriors now (and has been for the last couple of years).

Everyone left that shitty franchise. Hey, even a faggot can make it to the playoffs. What's up with your team?

[DMC]

mid told me that's a team accomplishment. How is that relevant to this thread? "titles" not "tittles" - unless you are accounting for his tongue ring and tramp stamp. :lol

Since Dale is a hypocrite and picks and chooses who he applies his standards too, only pussies and assholes do the spelling indictment.

[DMC]

Don't know why people have such a bug up their ass about Duncan being a forward or center...as if he's the only one to play multiple positions. Westbrook's a shooting guard, Dirk's a jump shooting center, Magic was a 6'9'' point, Barkley played the three when he was in Philly, etc.

Quite simple. Duncan is the best at something, and the haters will try to marginalize him to any role they can where they can ignore that fact. Too bad NBA coaches, players and experts don't hold the same douchey opinions as these random sister fuckers here. It must really suck for your team to have never won a ring. Duncan's 3 pointer must still sting, but not as bad as that soft ass hip check by Horry, eh?

Ah what could have been. Now you're relegated to hating the winners.

[Drachen]

Or, do this:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Or do this:::

Develop a cogent thought.

[TheRealCB]

Thank Christ, otherwise O & 45 wouldn't be O & 45.

Cubby,why do you hate the Suns so much?

[DAF86]

mid told me that's a team accomplishment. How is that relevant to this thread? "titles" not "tittles" - unless you are accounting for his tongue ring and tramp stamp. :lol

Being the best player of a team that won 4 times the NBA championship is an individual accomplishment.

[Thread]

Cubby,why do you hate the Suns so much?

It's inexplicable. But, it's palpable. If you gave me a deal to lock them out of the NBA Title till the day I died, but, I had to lock the Lakers out as well, I'd take it like a fuckin' shot, but, you'd have to throw the Spurs in as well. tee, hee.

[da_suns_fan]

Cubby,why do you hate the Suns so much?


It's inexplicable. But, it's palpable. If you gave me a deal to lock them out of the NBA Title till the day I died, but, I had to lock the Lakers out as well, I'd take it like a fuckin' shot, but, you'd have to throw the Spurs in as well. tee, hee.

He hated the "obsessiveness" of the Phoenix fans and media when the Suns were the only sports team in town. It gave him joy to watch the heart ache of a pitiful fan base "drinking the championship kool-aid" just to end up losing to the Lakers/Bulls/Rockets/Spurs EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

[Cry Havoc]

ITT: Fans of teams that Duncan is continuing, at 37, to take a dump on, getting all mad. :lol

It must suck that a 37 year old player is playing at a higher level than anyone currently on your roster. :lmao

Oh yeah and, :lol Suns fans not understanding defense. Shocker. :lol

[Thread]

He hated the "obsessiveness" of the Phoenix fans and media when the Suns were the only sports team in town. It gave him joy to watch the heart ache of a pitiful fan base "drinking the championship kool-aid" just to end up losing to the Lakers/Bulls/Rockets/Spurs EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

& the way they (Media) never give up. And they way they talk about the Lakers between the lines and beneath their breath and in code. Motherfuckers. It drives me nuts. And they all do it, except for the newest guys like this Albert guy on the TV telecasts. He's clueless, he doesn't hate us and it shows thru. But, the rest, those motherfuckers. They haven't even lamented losing that Lottery Pick. It went from the Lottery to #30 and those fuckers haven't even blinked. But, if it had stayed in the Lottery I'd never hear the end of it. Now they sell it as "We have 2 first round draft picks." Fuckers. See, they never give up.

[TheRealCB]

It's inexplicable. But, it's palpable. If you gave me a deal to lock them out of the NBA Title till the day I died, but, I had to lock the Lakers out as well, I'd take it like a fuckin' shot, but, you'd have to throw the Spurs in as well. tee, hee.
So you're not looking ahead at the Celtics?


He hated the "obsessiveness" of the Phoenix fans and media when the Suns were the only sports team in town. It gave him joy to watch the heart ache of a pitiful fan base "drinking the championship kool-aid" just to end up losing to the Lakers/Bulls/Rockets/Spurs EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
Sounds like DoK :lol


& the way they (Media) never give up. And they way they talk about the Lakers between the lines and beneath their breath and in code. Motherfuckers. It drives me nuts. And they all do it, except for the newest guys like this Albert guy on the TV telecasts. He's clueless, he doesn't hate us and it shows thru. But, the rest, those motherfuckers. They haven't even lamented losing that Lottery Pick. It went from the Lottery to #30 and those fuckers haven't even blinked. But, if it had stayed in the Lottery I'd never hear the end of it. Now they sell it as "We have 2 first round draft picks." Fuckers. See, they never give up.

I feel you on this one.

[Budkin]

He's trying to say Duncan takes it up the ass by other guys.

Come on Cub you know you love you some Jim. :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

This thread is based on random, arbitrary numbers in the regular season? that seems pointless, tbh:lol..

Using the same criteria in the playoffs, Duncan ranks 6th in 40 points-10 rebounds games..

30-10 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 42
Malone: 40
Olajuwon: 37
Duncan: 35
Barkley: 22

Duncan is 4th on the list, way ahead of 5th and close to 2nd..

30-20 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 10
Barkley: 7
Duncan: 4
Malone: 3
Garnett: 3
Olajuwon: 3

Duncan is 3rd on the list..

30-10 and 3 blocks(since 2 blocks isn't an impressive number, not sure why OP decided to use it
Olajuwon: 25
Shaq: 20
Duncan: 18

Duncan is 3rd, nobody else is close to these 3..

Now, let's choose our own arbitrary, impressive numbers, based on OP's base arguments..

30-20 and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3
Shaq: 2
Olajuwon: 2

Duncan is #1 on this list..

Let's factor assists into the equation to display Timmy's versatility..

20-10 and 5 assists
Lebron: 31
Duncan: 27
Barkley: 25
Malone: 25
Olajuwon: 24
Shaq: 22

Duncan is 2nd to Lebron in this category..

20-20 with 5 assists
Duncan: 7
Barkley: 5
Shaq: 4
Garnett: 3

Duncan is 1st in this category..

20-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Olajuwon: 9
Duncan: 8
Shaq: 3
Robinson 3

Duncan is 2nd, barely behind Hakeem..nobody else is close..

20-20 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3

Nobody else has done it more than once..

30-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 2

No other player has done it more than once:lol, what a beast-ass nigga, tbh..

These are just the numbers, ignoring pace, too, which is usually a disadvantage for Tim's blocks and rebounds numbers..factoring in credible advanced metrics, Duncan is at or near the top in most numbers, tbh..also, Hakeem is the only superior defensive player on any of these lists..

Any defensive metric will show that Duncan is at worst, a top 3 defender of this generation(only Garnett and Ben Wallace are on the same level)..obviously this isn't the case for Shaq, Malone, Barkley or anybody on these lists outside of Hakeem..


Some random Tim Duncan playoffs(since that's all that matters) facts with heavier weight/more substance, tbh:

- Duncan joins Lebron James, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird as the only players in the modern era to lead a team to a title while leading their team in playoffs PPG, RPG and APG..if you include BPG as well, only Duncan and Hakeem remain..

- Duncan in 2003 joins 1994 Olajuwon as the only stars in NBA history to win an NBA title with their 2nd option averaging less than 15 PPG in the playoffs..

- Duncan in 2003 had only 1 teammate with an above average PER, which has never been replicated in the modern era IIRC..


Personally, I agree that prime Shaq is better than Duncan, he's probably the most dominant player I've ever seen, maybe in the history of the NBA, tbh..Duncan's longevity has surpassed him, and there's no question that he's a superior teammate, though..

Other than Shaq, Duncan is the best playoff performer of his generation, and one of the best in history, and it isn't arguable, tbh..

[midnightpulp]

Regular season games.

[yawn]

Duncan's tuned out the reg season since '04. Only players like Kirby, Malone, etc play like it's game 7 every night because they care more about stats above all else.

[midnightpulp]

This thread is based on random, arbitrary numbers in the regular season? that seems pointless, tbh:lol..

Using the same criteria in the playoffs, Duncan ranks 6th in 40 points-10 rebounds games..

30-10 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 42
Malone: 40
Olajuwon: 37
Duncan: 35
Barkley: 22

Duncan is 4th on the list, way ahead of 5th and close to 2nd..

30-20 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 10
Barkley: 7
Duncan: 4
Malone: 3
Garnett: 3
Olajuwon: 3

Duncan is 3rd on the list..

30-10 and 3 blocks(since 2 blocks isn't an impressive number, not sure why OP decided to use it
Olajuwon: 25
Shaq: 20
Duncan: 18

Duncan is 3rd, nobody else is close to these 3..

Now, let's choose our own arbitrary, impressive numbers, based on OP's base arguments..

30-20 and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3
Shaq: 2
Olajuwon: 2

Duncan is #1 on this list..

Let's factor assists into the equation to display Timmy's versatility..

20-10 and 5 assists
Lebron: 31
Duncan: 27
Barkley: 25
Malone: 25
Olajuwon: 24
Shaq: 22

Duncan is 2nd to Lebron in this category..

20-20 with 5 assists
Duncan: 7
Barkley: 5
Shaq: 4
Garnett: 3

Duncan is 1st in this category..

20-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Olajuwon: 9
Duncan: 8
Shaq: 3
Robinson 3

Duncan is 2nd, barely behind Hakeem..nobody else is close..

20-20 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3

Nobody else has done it more than once..

30-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 2

No other player has done it more than once:lol, what a beast-ass nigga, tbh..

These are just the numbers, ignoring pace, too, which is usually a disadvantage for Tim's blocks and rebounds numbers..factoring in credible advanced metrics, Duncan is at or near the top in most numbers, tbh..also, Hakeem is the only superior defensive player on any of these lists..

Any defensive metric will show that Duncan is at worst, a top 3 defender of this generation(only Garnett and Ben Wallace are on the same level)..obviously this isn't the case for Shaq, Malone, Barkley or anybody on these lists outside of Hakeem..


Some random Tim Duncan playoffs(since that's all that matters) facts with heavier weight/more substance, tbh:

- Duncan joins Lebron James, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird as the only players in the modern era to lead a team to a title while leading their team in playoffs PPG, RPG and APG..if you include BPG as well, only Duncan and Hakeem remain..

- Duncan in 2003 joins 1994 Olajuwon as the only stars in NBA history to win an NBA title with their 2nd option averaging less than 15 PPG in the playoffs..

- Duncan in 2003 had only 1 teammate with an above average PER, which has never been replicated in the modern era IIRC..


Personally, I agree that prime Shaq is better than Duncan, he's probably the most dominant player I've ever seen, maybe in the history of the NBA, tbh..Duncan's longevity has surpassed him, and there's no question that he's a superior teammate, though..

Other than Shaq, Duncan is the best playoff performer of his generation, and one of the best in history, and it isn't arguable, tbh..

Harlem emptied his balls onto DSF's face like the Spurs have emptied theirs on the Suns over the past decade.

[da_suns_fan]

This thread is based on random, arbitrary numbers in the regular season? that seems pointless, tbh:lol..

Using the same criteria in the playoffs, Duncan ranks 6th in 40 points-10 rebounds games..

30-10 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 42
Malone: 40
Olajuwon: 37
Duncan: 35
Barkley: 22

Duncan is 4th on the list, way ahead of 5th and close to 2nd..

30-20 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 10
Barkley: 7
Duncan: 4
Malone: 3
Garnett: 3
Olajuwon: 3

Duncan is 3rd on the list..

30-10 and 3 blocks(since 2 blocks isn't an impressive number, not sure why OP decided to use it
Olajuwon: 25
Shaq: 20
Duncan: 18

Duncan is 3rd, nobody else is close to these 3..

Now, let's choose our own arbitrary, impressive numbers, based on OP's base arguments..

30-20 and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3
Shaq: 2
Olajuwon: 2

Duncan is #1 on this list..

Let's factor assists into the equation to display Timmy's versatility..

20-10 and 5 assists
Lebron: 31
Duncan: 27
Barkley: 25
Malone: 25
Olajuwon: 24
Shaq: 22

Duncan is 2nd to Lebron in this category..

20-20 with 5 assists
Duncan: 7
Barkley: 5
Shaq: 4
Garnett: 3

Duncan is 1st in this category..

20-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Olajuwon: 9
Duncan: 8
Shaq: 3
Robinson 3

Duncan is 2nd, barely behind Hakeem..nobody else is close..

20-20 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3

Nobody else has done it more than once..

30-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 2

No other player has done it more than once:lol, what a beast-ass nigga, tbh..

These are just the numbers, ignoring pace, too, which is usually a disadvantage for Tim's blocks and rebounds numbers..factoring in credible advanced metrics, Duncan is at or near the top in most numbers, tbh..also, Hakeem is the only superior defensive player on any of these lists..

Any defensive metric will show that Duncan is at worst, a top 3 defender of this generation(only Garnett and Ben Wallace are on the same level)..obviously this isn't the case for Shaq, Malone, Barkley or anybody on these lists outside of Hakeem..


Some random Tim Duncan playoffs(since that's all that matters) facts with heavier weight/more substance, tbh:

- Duncan joins Lebron James, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird as the only players in the modern era to lead a team to a title while leading their team in playoffs PPG, RPG and APG..if you include BPG as well, only Duncan and Hakeem remain..

- Duncan in 2003 joins 1994 Olajuwon as the only stars in NBA history to win an NBA title with their 2nd option averaging less than 15 PPG in the playoffs..

- Duncan in 2003 had only 1 teammate with an above average PER, which has never been replicated in the modern era IIRC..


Personally, I agree that prime Shaq is better than Duncan, he's probably the most dominant player I've ever seen, maybe in the history of the NBA, tbh..Duncan's longevity has surpassed him, and there's no question that he's a superior teammate, though..

Other than Shaq, Duncan is the best playoff performer of his generation, and one of the best in history, and it isn't arguable, tbh..

On the contrary. Filtering for playoffs (which you did) dramatically skews results because different teams go farther and thus THE NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED IS DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. I give Duncan credit for a couple of "big" games the playoffs but all those other guys played big in the playoffs AND the regular season. Charles Barkley played on some horrible 76er teams in his prime that didnt even make the playoffs...does that mean hes not as good as Duncan who played with David Robinson, Ginobili and Tony Parker?


Taking your query (20 pts, 20 rebounds and 5 assists) without the "playoff" filter produces the following results:


1 Charles Barkley* F 42
2 Dwight Howard C 42
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 38
4 Shaquille O'Neal C 34
5 Kevin Garnett F 27
6 Kevin Willis F 23
7 Tim Duncan F 21

btw - Do you have any idea what the word "random" means? I only ask because you claim my analysis was based off "random, arbitrary numbers". I dont think you know what either "random" or "arbitrary" actually mean.

Points, rebounds, blocks, assists etc arent "random or arbitrary". And I challenge you to find a criteria set that includes the regular season in which Duncan breaks the top two.

If Duncan is "the greatest PF", shouldnt that include regular season AND playoffs?

[Juggity]

Can't think of another NBA player who achieved (as Tim has) a quad-dub in the finals.

Pretty untouchable. Duncan wins when it matters.

[da_suns_fan]

The point of this thread was Duncan hasnt had many "big games". Even in Harlem Heats queries, all of the results produce values of "2 times", "3 times" etc.

These are called "outliers" or "anomalies". Thats why theres so few. Shaq/Barkley etc have so many more 30/15 games than Duncan because they were so much more dominant/consistent than Duncan night after night.

Likewise Duncan's "Versatility" is a joke compared to KG (who blows away everyone in the points, rebounds, blocks and assists) but he wont show up in any of Harlem Heats results because he played in so few playoff games.

[da_suns_fan]

Number of playoff games:

Duncan: 191
Barkley: 123



30-20 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 10
Barkley: 7
Duncan: 4
Malone: 3
Garnett: 3
Olajuwon: 3

Duncan starts to look worse and worse in the playoffs when you factor just how many playoff games hes played in. He should have well more than Barkley in all categories.

[100%duncan]

Duncan doesn't need any excuse, tbh. He won 4 tittles as the best player of his team.

This tbh. And suns fan has nary room. :lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol I'm just using your "big game" definition..

There are certainly many circumstances and variables that play a role in these results, including games played, but the same can be said about basing your entire argument on data generated from meaningless regular season games..

If you actually have the balls to expand your argument further than simply using "big games results", and actually compare their careers and peak outputs(which it appears you are now doing, since you've begun to reference supporting casts, etc in one of your recent posts), I'll easily make arguments for Duncan as a playoff performer that will shit all over Barkley, Malone, KG and whoever you want to argue for, tbh..

[midnightpulp]

On the contrary. Filtering for playoffs (which you did) dramatically skews results because different teams go farther and thus have more games and thus more opportunities to have "big games". I give Duncan credit for playing "big" in the playoffs but all those other guys played big in the playoffs AND the regular season. Charles Barkley played on some horrible 76er teams in his prime that didnt even make the playoffs...does that mean hes not as good as Duncan who played with David Robinson, Ginobili and Tony Parker?


Taking your query (20 pts, 20 rebounds and 5 assists) without the "playoff" filter produces the following results:



btw - Do you have any idea what the word "random" means? I only ask because you claim my analysis was based off "random, arbitrary numbers". I dont think you know what either "random" or "arbitrary" actually mean.

Points, rebounds, blocks, assists etc arent "random or arbitrary". And I challenge you to find a criteria set that includes the regular season in which Duncan breaks the top two.

If Duncan is "the greatest PF", shouldnt that include regular season AND playoffs?

Reaching.

Duncan, whether he's a PF or a Center, is a better basketball player than that fat no defense playing midget big man Barkley ever was. As a DoK once said, "Barkley would struggle in the modern era at the PF position with all the long, post oriented PF's that have come into the league the past decade. The PF position has dramatically changed since the 80's and 90's. PFs got out more on the break in those days (Worthy, Barkley, Malone, Tom Chambers, etc) and with the high pace of the 80's/early 90's, they would naturally have more impressive "on paper" games. It's incredible how the majority of Duncan haters/Kobe fans etc don't understand that simple concept. Higher pace=bigger games. In the Spurs' championship years, they played a "grit-and-grind" style, often scoring in the 80s and low 90s. See any 20 ppg scores on Memphis this year? Know why?

You also neglect the different roles Duncan played vs. Malone/Barkley. Up until about '07, Duncan was basically the Spurs' point guard, setting up the offense, and getting teammates involved. He didn't have the luxury of playing with a PG like Stockton or Kevin Johnson, two great passing PGs who got those two countless easy dunks/layups. I think Bill Simmons said that if Duncan played with an All Star level pass first type PG, you could easily add 4-6 points to his career average. I'm a fan of stats, PER etc, but any player vs. player argument that doesn't take into consideration the respective systems each player in is weak at best.

Furthermore, in your comprehensive "analysis," you completely ignore the other side of the ball. Duncan is in another universe defensively compare to those stat whores.

[DMC]

On the contrary. Filtering for playoffs (which you did) dramatically skews results because different teams go farther and thus THE NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED IS DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. I give Duncan credit for a couple of "big" games the playoffs but all those other guys played big in the playoffs AND the regular season. Charles Barkley played on some horrible 76er teams in his prime that didnt even make the playoffs...does that mean hes not as good as Duncan who played with David Robinson, Ginobili and Tony Parker?


Taking your query (20 pts, 20 rebounds and 5 assists) without the "playoff" filter produces the following results:



btw - Do you have any idea what the word "random" means? I only ask because you claim my analysis was based off "random, arbitrary numbers". I dont think you know what either "random" or "arbitrary" actually mean.

Points, rebounds, blocks, assists etc arent "random or arbitrary". And I challenge you to find a criteria set that includes the regular season in which Duncan breaks the top two.

If Duncan is "the greatest PF", shouldnt that include regular season AND playoffs?

Stupid faggot, there's no "big games" outside of the playoffs and Finals.

[midnightpulp]

In 15 years, DSF will make an argument that Kevin Love was better than Kevin Garnett because he had 'bigger regular season" games. :lmao

[spurraider21]

This thread is based on random, arbitrary numbers in the regular season? that seems pointless, tbh:lol..

Using the same criteria in the playoffs, Duncan ranks 6th in 40 points-10 rebounds games..

30-10 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 42
Malone: 40
Olajuwon: 37
Duncan: 35
Barkley: 22

Duncan is 4th on the list, way ahead of 5th and close to 2nd..

30-20 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 10
Barkley: 7
Duncan: 4
Malone: 3
Garnett: 3
Olajuwon: 3

Duncan is 3rd on the list..

30-10 and 3 blocks(since 2 blocks isn't an impressive number, not sure why OP decided to use it
Olajuwon: 25
Shaq: 20
Duncan: 18

Duncan is 3rd, nobody else is close to these 3..

Now, let's choose our own arbitrary, impressive numbers, based on OP's base arguments..

30-20 and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3
Shaq: 2
Olajuwon: 2

Duncan is #1 on this list..

Let's factor assists into the equation to display Timmy's versatility..

20-10 and 5 assists
Lebron: 31
Duncan: 27
Barkley: 25
Malone: 25
Olajuwon: 24
Shaq: 22

Duncan is 2nd to Lebron in this category..

20-20 with 5 assists
Duncan: 7
Barkley: 5
Shaq: 4
Garnett: 3

Duncan is 1st in this category..

20-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Olajuwon: 9
Duncan: 8
Shaq: 3
Robinson 3

Duncan is 2nd, barely behind Hakeem..nobody else is close..

20-20 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3

Nobody else has done it more than once..

30-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 2

No other player has done it more than once:lol, what a beast-ass nigga, tbh..

These are just the numbers, ignoring pace, too, which is usually a disadvantage for Tim's blocks and rebounds numbers..factoring in credible advanced metrics, Duncan is at or near the top in most numbers, tbh..also, Hakeem is the only superior defensive player on any of these lists..

Any defensive metric will show that Duncan is at worst, a top 3 defender of this generation(only Garnett and Ben Wallace are on the same level)..obviously this isn't the case for Shaq, Malone, Barkley or anybody on these lists outside of Hakeem..


Some random Tim Duncan playoffs(since that's all that matters) facts with heavier weight/more substance, tbh:

- Duncan joins Lebron James, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird as the only players in the modern era to lead a team to a title while leading their team in playoffs PPG, RPG and APG..if you include BPG as well, only Duncan and Hakeem remain..

- Duncan in 2003 joins 1994 Olajuwon as the only stars in NBA history to win an NBA title with their 2nd option averaging less than 15 PPG in the playoffs..

- Duncan in 2003 had only 1 teammate with an above average PER, which has never been replicated in the modern era IIRC..


Personally, I agree that prime Shaq is better than Duncan, he's probably the most dominant player I've ever seen, maybe in the history of the NBA, tbh..Duncan's longevity has surpassed him, and there's no question that he's a superior teammate, though..

Other than Shaq, Duncan is the best playoff performer of his generation, and one of the best in history, and it isn't arguable, tbh..

one of the GOAT posts i've seen on this forum :tu

but one thing that always bothers me is the "shaq most dominant of all time" thing when Wilt averaged 50 and 25 :lol

then they say "Wilt played against nobody's", to which I look at the Centers shaq went up against in his prime (im assuming 2000-2002). he went up against old, way past his prime robinson, old past his prime Divac, old past his prime sabonis, old past his prime dikembe, tod mcallugh (or however the fuck you spell it), and old past his prime rik smits

[HarlemHeat37]

Check out his arguments in the all-NBA teams thread, tbh:lol..

This nigga uses shitty advanced stats that he just discovered and parrots takes from the stubborn WoW/NBA geek contributors, tbh..

He uses the same numbers that claim the Lakers role players were more important than Kobe/Shaq in 2001:lol..

[midnightpulp]

More on the point of pace:

The Barkley era Suns averaged over 110 points a game compared to the Duncan-era champion year Spurs teams who averaged around 90.

Of course he's gonna have "bigger" games, you monkey.

[DMC]

Pretty sure he's a troll. No one is that stupid except Mouse maybe.

[da_suns_fan]

Reaching.

Duncan, whether he's a PF or a Center, is a better basketball player than that fat no defense playing midget big man Barkley ever was. As a DoK once said, "Barkley would struggle in the modern era at the PF position with all the long, post oriented PF's that have come into the league the past decade. The PF position has dramatically changed since the 80's and 90's. PFs got out more on the break in those days (Worthy, Barkley, Malone, Tom Chambers, etc) and with the high pace of the 80's/early 90's, they would naturally have more impressive "on paper" games. It's incredible how the majority of Duncan haters/Kobe fans etc don't understand that simple concept. Higher pace=bigger games. In the Spurs' championship years, they played a "grit-and-grind" style, often scoring in the 80s and low 90s. See any 20 ppg scores on Memphis this year? Know why?

You also neglect the different roles Duncan played vs. Malone/Barkley. Up until about '07, Duncan was basically the Spurs' point guard, setting up the offense, and getting teammates involved. He didn't have the luxury of playing with a PG like Stockton or Kevin Johnson, two great passing PGs who got those two countless easy dunks/layups. I think Bill Simmons said that if Duncan played with an All Star level pass first type PG, you could easily add 4-6 points to his career average. I'm a fan of stats, PER etc, but any player vs. player argument that doesn't take into consideration the respective systems each player in is weak at best.

Furthermore, in your comprehensive "analysis," you completely ignore the other side of the ball. Duncan is in another universe defensively compare to those stat whores.

Theres so much fail in this post.

Barkley played with Kevin Johnson for four seasons. I dont think KJ contributed to his tremendous rebounding either. What "great PG" did Shaq play with?

Likewise, both KG and Barkley's respective assist numbers blow Duncan out of the water.

I understand that stats dont accurately measure defense, but the fact is that Duncan really doesnt compare to other "big four" in terms of games with high points, rebounds etc.

[da_suns_fan]

More on the point of pace:

The Barkley era Suns averaged over 110 points a game compared to the Duncan-era champion year Spurs teams who averaged around 90.

Of course he's gonna have "bigger" games, you monkey.

Once again, Barkley played for the Suns for four of his 16 seasons. Most of his big games came as a sixer.

And once again, Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq and Malone dont need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

The fact is that he wasnt very "extraordinary". His "big games" were very few and far between.

[DMC]

Theres so much fail in this post.

Barkley played with Kevin Johnson for four seasons. I dont think KJ contributed to his tremendous rebounding either. What "great PG" did Shaq play with?

Likewise, both KG and Barkley's respective assist numbers blow Duncan out of the water.

I understand that stats dont accurately measure defense, but the fact is that Duncan really doesnt compare to other "big four" in terms of games with high points, rebounds etc.
Let's see.. hmmm... Someone named Penny.

[Brunodf]

Don't feed the troll. Barkley was the David Lee of his era.
Good looking numbers/poor D/shit playoff runs

[da_suns_fan]

:lol I'm just using your "big game" definition..

There are certainly many circumstances and variables that play a role in these results, including games played, but the same can be said about basing your entire argument on data generated from meaningless regular season games..

If you actually have the balls to expand your argument further than simply using "big games results", and actually compare their careers and peak outputs(which it appears you are now doing, since you've begun to reference supporting casts, etc in one of your recent posts), I'll easily make arguments for Duncan as a playoff performer that will shit all over Barkley, Malone, KG and whoever you want to argue for, tbh..

Except your queries just really prove the opposite when you factor in number of playoff games played.

How does Barkley have more 30/20 games than Duncan even though he played in SEVENTY (70..no typo) less playoff games?

[da_suns_fan]

Let's see.. hmmm... Someone named Penny.

So Shaq blows Duncan out of the water in every single category because of the THREE seasons (out of 21 year career) he played with Penny Hardaway yet Duncan's played with Tony Parker for 10+ seasons?

You seriously SUCK at this.

[DMC]

Once again, Barkley played for the Suns for four of his 16 seasons. Most of his big games came as a sixer.

And once again, Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq and Malone dont need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

The fact is that he wasnt very "extraordinary". His "big games" were very few and far between.

The big question is: Did Kobe Bryant's 35 field-goal attempts lead to the Lakers loss? Bryant hit 20 out of 35 attempts, so it is hard to argue that he is hurting the team with bad shots, but the Lakers become disinterested on both ends of the floor when they don't get looks from Bryant. The Suns should be prepared for the Lakers to focus on scoring in the paint in Game 7, but if the Lakers turn the ball over in the paint the way they did in Game 6 the Suns could be the first team to beat Phil Jackson in a series he has led. Jackson right now is 44-0.

[DMC]

So Shaq blows Duncan out of the water in every single category because of the THREE seasons (out of 21 year career) he played with Penny Hardaway yet Duncan's played with Tony Parker for 10+ seasons?

You seriously SUCK at this.

No, because Shaq was one of the most dominant big men to ever play the game.

You asked which PGs he played with. There's your answer. Someone got him the ball, he wasn't bringing it up himself.

[DMC]

Except your queries just really prove the opposite when you factor in number of playoff games played.

How does Barkley have more 30/20 games than Duncan even though he played in SEVENTY (70..no typo) less playoff games?

Ask Charles. He says Tim is the best PF to ever play.

[midnightpulp]

Theres so much fail in this post.

Barkley played with Kevin Johnson for four seasons. I dont think KJ contributed to his tremendous rebounding either. What "great PG" did Shaq play with?

Likewise, both KG and Barkley's respective assist numbers blow Duncan out of the water.

I understand that stats dont accurately measure defense, but the fact is that Duncan really doesnt compare to other "big four" in terms of games with high points, rebounds etc.

We're not comparing Duncan with Shaq here. Our focus in on Barkley/Malone vs. Duncan. Shaq was a more dominant scorer than Duncan. That goes without saying.

Barkley played with Mo Cheeks in Philly for 5/6 seasons. But Barkley's big games in that era relative to modern day competition can be more explained by the high pace and terrible defense played in the 80's. Barkley's Sixer teams averaged about 108-110 points a game. I'm not saying Barkley would flounder in a down tempo system, but he'd have much less 30-15, 25-20 games etc.

Everyone had bloated stats in the 80's, which is why it's beyond retarded to compare those players to today's with raw stats, something as an advanced stat fan you should understand.

[da_suns_fan]

No, because Shaq was one of the most dominant big men to ever play the game.

You asked which PGs he played with. There's your answer. Someone got him the ball, he wasn't bringing it up himself.

Tony Parker doesnt bring up the ball?

[DMC]

Tony Parker doesnt bring up the ball?

And? You asked, dumbass. You didn't count on Penny did ya/

[midnightpulp]

Elgin Baylor had more "big games" than Lebron, thus he's a better player.

- DSF's retard logic.

[HarlemHeat37]

- Barkley's teams averaged approximately 10 possessions more per 100 than Duncan's teams, a massive disparity..a larger disparity than this year's #1 vs. #30 in pace..

- Duncan exerts an equal amount (or probably even more) of energy on the defensive end as he does offensively..Barkley played no defense(as he frequently admits) and had very little defensive responsibility..

I can only imagine the type of damage Duncan could do if he didn't have to anchor a perennially elite defense..shit, even this year, at age 36-37, Duncan's defensive numbers are elite on a top 5 defense, and the Spurs defense goes downhill when he's off the floor..

I've always thought it was unfair to compare players like Duncan and Hakeem to players that have virtually no defensive responsibility, tbh..

- Duncan has more big playoff games than Barkley, using your original criteria..you didn't factor variables and circumstance to your original argument, you simply listed raw data totals, I did the same, tbh..

If you want to argue that Barkley is a better regular season big game player than Duncan, I won't argue, I don't really care, tbh..

[da_suns_fan]

We're not comparing Duncan with Shaq here. Our focus in on Barkley/Malone vs. Duncan. Shaq was a more dominant scorer than Duncan. That goes without saying.

Barkley played with Mo Cheeks in Philly for 5/6 seasons. But Barkley's big games in that era relative to modern day competition can be more explained by the high pace and terrible defense played in the 80's. Barkley's Sixer teams averaged about 108-110 points a game. I'm not saying Barkley would flounder in a down tempo system, but he'd have much less 30-15, 25-20 games etc.

Everyone had bloated stats in the 80's, which is why it's beyond retarded to compare those players to today's with raw stats, something as an advanced stat fan you should understand.

I reject the narrative that Duncan shouldnt be compared to Shaq when they played in the same era and produced the same type of stats (points, rebounds, blocks etc).

I reject the narrative that Duncan's numbers shouldnt count because he didnt play with a great point guard (poor Tony Parker) and Barkley did (Mo who?).

I understand that a slower pace will lead to less rebounds/scoring opportunities, but the fact still remains that Duncan had DRAMATICALLY less big games than the other four. If you want to attribute that to "pace", so be it. But Shaq didnt need that excuse and he played in the same era.

[midnightpulp]

- Barkley's teams averaged approximately 10 possessions more per 100 than Duncan's teams, a massive disparity..a larger disparity than this year's #1 vs. #30 in pace..

- Duncan exerts an equal amount (or probably even more) of energy on the defensive end as he does offensively..Barkley played no defense and had very little defensive responsibility..

I can only imagine the type of damage Duncan could do if he didn't have to anchor a perennially elite defense..shit, even this year, at age 36-37, Duncan's defensive numbers are elite and the Spurs defense goes downhill when he's off the floor..

I've always thought it was unfair to compare players like Duncan and Hakeem to players that have virtually no defensive responsibility, tbh..

Barkley/Malone fans seem to never grasp this point.

Kevin Love will likely finish with many more "big games" than KG. But only an idiot would say Kevin Love is anywhere near the level of player KG is/was. That goes for David Lee, too. He'll probably finish with 20 times more "big games" than someone like Marc Gasol (yeah, I know Gasol is overrated, as you've discussed), but considering Gasol's responsibility and defensive presence, he's a better player than Lee.

[da_suns_fan]

Elgin Baylor had more "big games" than Lebron, thus he's a better player.

- DSF's retard logic.

Nonsense. Lebron is already number one in 30/7/7 games and hes only halfway done in his career:


1 LeBron James F 113
2 Michael Jordan* G 79
3 Larry Bird* F 55
4 Kobe Bryant G 46
5 Magic Johnson* G 43


See? Lebron doesnt need excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

[da_suns_fan]

Spurs fans top EXCUSES as to why Duncan has so few "big games"

1) Pace
2) No good point guard
3) He plays defense
4) He doesnt "stat pad"
5) He doesnt CARE about regular season

I'd say number one is a "legitimate" argument but the rest are just laughably stupid.

[midnightpulp]

I reject the narrative that Duncan shouldnt be compared to Shaq when they played in the same era and produced the same type of stats (points, rebounds, blocks etc).

I reject the narrative that Duncan's numbers shouldnt count because he didnt play with a great point guard (poor Tony Parker) and Barkley did (Mo who?).

I understand that a slower pace will lead to less rebounds/scoring opportunities, but the fact still remains that Duncan had DRAMATICALLY less big games than the other four. If you want to attribute that to "pace", so be it. But Shaq didnt need that excuse and he played in the same era.


(Mo who?)

I hope you were being ironic with that comment. If you don't who Mo Cheeks is, then :lol, you don't know shit about the NBA.

And you're strawmanning something fierce. Never did I even imply Duncan's stats "shouldn't count" because he played with Tony Parker. I simply explained how never playing with a pass first PG affected Duncan's scoring. It is a team game after all. That said, I wouldn't trade the Duncan dictated offense in the Spurs' championship years for an offense being run by a ball dominant Stockton type PG. While Duncan's scoring average might go up, the Spurs shooters (an important component to their offense) would be less involved.

I'm not rejecting a Shaq vs. Duncan comparison. Shaq was a more dominant offensive player. What more do you want me to say?

[da_suns_fan]

Barkley/Malone fans seem to never grasp this point.

Kevin Love will likely finish with many more "big games" than KG. But only an idiot would say Kevin Love is anywhere near the level of player KG is/was. That goes for David Lee, too. He'll probably finish with 20 times more "big games" than someone like Marc Gasol (yeah, I know Gasol is overrated, as you've discussed), but considering Gasol's responsibility and defensive presence, he's a better player than Lee.

Um...no.

Number of 20 point, 10 rebound, 5 assist, 2 block games:


1 Kevin Garnett F 114
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 101
3 Shaquille O'Neal C 88

KG was never "Great" at one category but he was "really good" at all categories. Hes easily the most versatile big man ever to play the game. Kevin Love's forte is rebound and hes a "pretty good" scorer but he'll never come close to KG.

See how easy it is (Lebron, KG etc) to find a "niche" in which a player is number one when that player is TRULY great?

Interesting that KG doesnt need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan even though he played most of his career in the 2000s (as opposed to the stat-padding 80s), with no dominant point guard etc.

[midnightpulp]

Nonsense. Lebron is already number one in 30/7/7 games and hes only halfway done in his career:



See? Lebron doesnt need excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

Nice cherry pick. How about 40-15-4blk games? Or 35-10blk games? "Big game" is relative.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

Why? Because those stats are "skewed?"

Same with the 80's compared to now, Champ.

[HarlemHeat37]

Btw, I do agree that Barkley was a better offensive player than Duncan..there aren't many players that are better offensively than Barkley..

The argument that he's a better overall player or better playoff performer is asinine, though..ignoring Duncan's defensive responsibility is foolish, tbh..

[TDfan2007]

The premise of comparison in this thread is purely pts/rbs/ast, and you're comparing players who played in different generations, and in the case of Shaq vs. Timmy, different teams with different levels of pace and offensive philosophy. You and Deuce should get a room...

Anyway, if you want to look at stats like PER and win shares, which account for things like pace, then feel free to come and tell me that Tim Duncan hasn't had many great games/great playoff series in relation to all time greats. I won't hold my breath.

Anyone with half a brain knows that Timmy could have posted close to 30 ppg in his prime if he felt like chucking.

As for the whole Barkley-Timmy comparison, which I think is really what you're trying to get at here, I have no problem with you telling me that he's a better scorer than Duncan, because he probably was. However, Duncan was the better defender, passer, off-ball player, which more than makes up for the slight advantage that Barkley had offensively.

[da_suns_fan]

Nice cherry pick. How about 40-15-4blk games? Or 35-10blk games? "Big game" is relative.

Likewise, Elgin Baylor played in pre-merger NBA so I dont pay much attention to those numbers.

Why? Because those stats are "skewed?"

Same with the 80's compared to now, Champ.

Sure: Number of 40 point, 15 rebound, 4 block games:



1 Patrick Ewing* C 5
2 Shaquille O'Neal C 4
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 3
4 Dwight Howard C 2

Wheres Tim Duncan? Answer: ZERO!!!!

Number of 35 point, 10 blocks games:


1 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 3
2 David Robinson* C 2


Duncan: Goose egg.

[DMC]

You're revisiting this thread way too often to not be butthurt about something Duncan did to you or your team. No good troll returns to his vomit this often.

[da_suns_fan]

The premise of comparison in this thread is purely pts/rbs/ast, and you're comparing players who played in different generations, and in the case of Shaq vs. Timmy, different teams with different levels of pace and offensive philosophy. You and Deuce should get a room...

Anyway, if you want to look at stats like PER and win shares, which account for things like pace, then feel free to come and tell me that Tim Duncan hasn't had many great games/great playoff series in relation to all time greats. I won't hold my breath.

Anyone with half a brain knows that Timmy could have posted close to 30 ppg in his prime if he felt like chucking.

As for the whole Barkley-Timmy comparison, which I think is really what you're trying to get at here, I have no problem with you telling me that he's a better scorer than Duncan, because he probably was. However, Duncan was the better defender, passer, off-ball player, which more than makes up for the slight advantage that Barkley had offensively.

Barkley was a MUCH better passer and Rebounder (Which was his forte). Thats stats EASILY Prove it.

[TDfan2007]

Tim Duncan was never the best scorer in the league, and never the best rebounder. His strength was that he was a Swiss army knife kind of player who could do everything well. Post up, shoot from the outside, take guys off the dribble, pass, block shots, play solid man defense, hedge pick and rolls almost perfectly, ambidextrous in the paint. His only weakness was FT shooting.

Having said that, Timmy is a top 4 low post player along with Kareem, Hakeem, and McHale.

[Cry Havoc]

The point of this thread was Duncan hasnt had many "big games". Even in Harlem Heats queries, all of the results produce values of "2 times", "3 times" etc.

These are called "outliers" or "anomalies". Thats why theres so few. Shaq/Barkley etc have so many more 30/15 games than Duncan because they were so much more dominant/consistent than Duncan night after night.

Likewise Duncan's "Versatility" is a joke compared to KG (who blows away everyone in the points, rebounds, blocks and assists) but he wont show up in any of Harlem Heats results because he played in so few playoff games.

Regular season ejaculation thread. :lmao

[Cry Havoc]

Barkley was a MUCH better passer and Rebounder (Which was his forte). Thats stats EASILY Prove it.

Because pace of game doesn't matter. :lol :lol :lol

You're dumb.

[midnightpulp]

Um...no.

Number of 20 point, 10 rebound, 5 assist, 2 block games:



KG was never "Great" at one category but he was "really good" at all categories. Hes easily the most versatile big man ever to play the game. Kevin Love's forte is rebound and hes a "pretty good" scorer but he'll never come close to KG.

See how easy it is (Lebron, KG etc) to find a "niche" in which a player is number one when that player is TRULY great?

Interesting that KG doesnt need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan even though he played most of his career in the 2000s (as opposed to the stat-padding 80s), with no dominant point guard etc.

Why is your "big game" definition more valid than my "big game" definition.

I can easily define a "big game" as 30-12, and if Love continues at his current pace, he'll have many, many more of those than KG. Similarly, I can diminish the importance of scoring in my "big game" definition and up the importance of blocks and assists and say that anything above a 20-10-5-2 game is a "big game," of which KG, as you pointed out, leads the field. Using your logic, KG has had more "big games" than Hakeem.

So, here's Midnightpulp's arbitrary big man "big game" definition:

At least 20 points, 15 boards, 3 blocks, on 50% shooting.

http://bkref.com/tiny/6dWnV

Duncan ranks 3rd all-time since 1986, and has triple the amount of those games as Barkley.

Relativism, do you understand it, motherfucker?

[TDfan2007]

Barkley was a MUCH better passer and Rebounder (Which was his forte). Thats stats EASILY Prove it.

:lol "he averages more assists, so he's a better passer."

you want to compare rebounds, look at rebound RATE, which takes pace into account. Passing is a more subjective quality, in that stats can be deceiving. You only get an assist if the guy makes a shot, and the NBA doesn't track those hockey assists, which Timmy had loads off after kicking the ball out of double teams.

[TDfan2007]

Why is your "big game" definition more valid than my "big game" definition.

I can easily define a "big game" as 30-12, and if Love continues at his current pace, he'll have many, many more of those than KG. Similarly, I can diminish the importance of scoring in my "big game" definition and up the importance of blocks and assists and say that anything above a 20-10-5-2 game is a "big game," of which KG, as you pointed out, leads the field. Using your logic, KG has had more "big games" than Hakeem.

So, here's Midnightpulp's arbitrary big man "big game" definition:

At least 20 points, 15 boards, 3 blocks, on 50% shooting.

http://bkref.com/tiny/6dWnV

Duncan ranks 3rd all-time since 1986, and has triple the amount of those games as Barkley.

Relativism, do you understand it, motherfucker?

Either he doesn't get it, or he's trolling. Either way you can't argue a point much better than this.

[midnightpulp]

Why is your "big game" definition more valid than my "big game" definition.

I can easily define a "big game" as 30-12, and if Love continues at his current pace, he'll have many, many more of those than KG. Similarly, I can diminish the importance of scoring in my "big game" definition and up the importance of blocks and assists and say that anything above a 20-10-5-2 game is a "big game," of which KG, as you pointed out, leads the field. Using your logic, KG has had more "big games" than Hakeem.

So, here's Midnightpulp's arbitrary big man "big game" definition:

At least 20 points, 15 boards, 3 blocks, on 50% shooting.

http://bkref.com/tiny/6dWnV

Duncan ranks 3rd all-time since 1986, and has triple the amount of those games as Barkley.

Relativism, do you understand it, motherfucker?

Let's pop scoring up to 25.

25, 15, 3blocks on 50% shooting is indeed a "big game," no matter what your personal definition is.

Duncan still comes in 3rd.

http://bkref.com/tiny/64yYT

And doubles Barkley up. :lol

[midnightpulp]

And the nail in the coffin for this Barkley fanboy:

http://bkref.com/tiny/rj7mq

Duncan has 14 "big games" in the playoffs (the real season) to Barkley's ZERO.

Even Lamar Odom managed to do so something Barkley couldn't :lol

[spurraider21]

I think Duncan is #1 all time in finals game with at least 21, 20, 10, and 8 blocks tbh. case closed. GOAT

[midnightpulp]

Anyhow, DSF. I hope you "get it" now.

"Big game" is an arbitrary definition relative to the era, team, situation, etc.

I'd consider a 20-10 game from Marc Gasol a "bigger game" than a 25-12 game from David Lee.

Comparing players via "big games" (which itself relies on a arbitrary definition) is probably the stupidest thing I've ever seen on this forum. I hope you learned the error of your ways and seek to become less retarded in the future.

[Latarian Milton]

duncan doesn't dominate the game in one thing or two, he dominates it as a whole imho. he usually makes more invisible impact on the game than what you can see he do on the court, and always ensures his team get the best possible result. the influence of players like duncan and battier can only be measured when they're off the court imho

[Thread]

^I still remember Battier and his 2 inch thick "STOP KOBE" binder in the Summer of '09.

tee, hee.

[ambchang]

LOL! Im "defining the criteria"? I didnt know it wasnt common knowledge what constitutes a "great game" (points, rebounds, blocks, shoot well etc). Ive used criteria to factor in shooting percentage. I'll use any "criteria" you want. Duncan is consistently behind Shaq, Barkley, Malone and Hakeem.

And no, I didnt say Howard > Hakeem. I said said howard had more big games according to one particular query (i dont even know which one youre talking about). But who cares? Hakeem will have more games than Howard in almost other relevant queries used to judge an big man's individual performance.

Im not cherry-picking a single query. Ive listed a dozen. Duncan's been labeled "boring" his entire career and the stats back that narrative up.

Since when were those common knowledge? And what does it show anyways? Using your own criteria, you have Dwight Howard > Hakeem. In fact, using your own criteria of 40 points and 10 rebounds, Antawn Jamison > Chris Webber, Paul Pierce, Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, and Kevin Garnett. This in and of itself shows that the criteria used showed nothing at all.

If you want to say that Duncan is boring, that is fine by me, but that’s not what you said in your first post, you said


Its a good think Duncan lists himself as a power forward because he was never even CLOSE to as dominant as Shaq. As far as forwards go, he has "the rings" but really never matched Barkley in terms of talent or the long term consistency of Malone. You can understand why hes always labeled "boring" when he really never really had the "big" games as often as his peers.

You explicitly said Duncan never matched Barkley and Malone or long term consistency of Malone right after listing the “findings”. You even right out said that him being labelled as boring isn’t much of an issue, and that you used those criteria to “prove” Barkley, Malone and Shaq > Duncan.

Way to backtrack.

And way to skirt the Jordan issue. Where is your response on that? To begin with, the qualifier that kept Duncan below Jordan was the 40 points. In fact, the 40 points has NOTHING to do with a “big man” criteria. Jordan > Malone, Hakeem, Ewing, Barkley, Robinson, Nowitzki as big man? That’s what your criteria said, and we know how monumentally stupid that idea is.

[ambchang]

The point of this thread was Duncan hasnt had many "big games". Even in Harlem Heats queries, all of the results produce values of "2 times", "3 times" etc.

These are called "outliers" or "anomalies". Thats why theres so few. Shaq/Barkley etc have so many more 30/15 games than Duncan because they were so much more dominant/consistent than Duncan night after night.

Likewise Duncan's "Versatility" is a joke compared to KG (who blows away everyone in the points, rebounds, blocks and assists) but he wont show up in any of Harlem Heats results because he played in so few playoff games.

Given that 30/15 games aren't typical of a player's performance (unless you are Wilt or Kareem), those are what you could call "outlier" games. Saying that Malone and Barkley had more outlier games than Duncan does not equate to them being more dominant, it just showed that they had more flashes of brilliance under unqualified circumstances. In other words, it said nothing.

[da_suns_fan]

Let's pop scoring up to 25.

25, 15, 3blocks on 50% shooting is indeed a "big game," no matter what your personal definition is.

Duncan still comes in 3rd.

http://bkref.com/tiny/64yYT

And doubles Barkley up. :lol

You still dont get it.

Why is Duncan STILL ONLY THIRD?

Barkley is NUMBER ONE in 20/20 games. NUMBER ONE in 26/12/5(assists) games. Shaq, Malone, KG, Dirk, Lebron etc. Theyre all number one at something.

But not Duncan.

Likewise, Im not surprised that you use blocks to filter out barkley and malone since they werent centers and didnt usually get a lot blocks.

However, increasing the number of assists filters out Duncan extremely quick. When it comes to "passing" PFs, theres KG, Barkley and everyone else.

The fact is if you treat Duncan as a center, Shaq and Hakeem will usually be way ahead of him. If you treat him as a PF, then Barkley, Malone and sometimes even KG will be ahead of him.

[TDMVPDPOY]

You still dont get it.

Why is Duncan STILL only third?

Barkley is NUMBER one in 20/20 games. NUMBER one in 26/12/5(assists) games. Shaq, Malone, KG, Dirk, Lebron etc. Theyre all number one at something.

But not Duncan.

Likewise, Im not surprised that you use blocks to filter out barkley and malone since they werent centers and didnt usually get a lot blocks.

However, increasing the number of assists filters out Duncan extremely quick. When it comes to "passing" PFs, theres KG, Barkley and everyone else.

u love stats so much, u must also gloat about the amare/duncan series where he avg +35ppg....but who won the series?

[da_suns_fan]

I love that Spurs fans say "you cant judge a players passing ability based off assists, you cant judge a players shooting ability based off scoring/fg%, you cant judge a players defense by blocks etc."

It appears Duncan is only "extraordinary" is ways are immeasurable! Otherwise he's at best 3rd.

[da_suns_fan]

The challenge remains. Create a query where Duncan appears in the top two (he doesnt even have to be first even though its easy to do with the other greats), including regular season and playoffs. Preferably a results set where the values are at least ten (otherwise its just counting fluke games rather than consistent play).

If Duncan is "the greatest", why is he as always at best, THIRD?

[Phillip]

If you do any query on a high number of points, rebounds, blocks etc you will see hes usually WAY behind Shaq, behind Barkley and Malone and often behind even Jordan.

For instance:

Since 1985, number of games a player had 40 points and ten rebounds...Duncan is seventeenth and behind the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, McGrady, Carmelo etc. Shaq is head and shoulders above everyone else



Okay...forget the big 40 point games..hes got to be tops for consistency sinces hes "greatest PF of all time", right?

Number of games a player had 30 pts and 10 rebounds:



Duncans not even close to the likes of Barkley whos not even close to Shaq whos not even close to Karl Malone.

How about 30 points and 20 rebounds:



Duncans fourth but not even close to Barkley or Shaq.

Okay..well lets throw in blocks (since Duncan is really a center pretending to be a PF)...30 points, 10 rebounds AND two blocks:



Duncans a respectable fifth..but again he doesnt even have HALF as many games as Shaq! Can that be right?!!



Final thougths: Its a good think Duncan lists himself as a power forward because he was never even CLOSE to as dominant as Shaq. As far as forwards go, he has "the rings" but really never matched Barkley in terms of talent or the long term consistency of Malone. You can understand why hes always labeled "boring" when he really never really had the "big" games as often as his peers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

using straightforward stats like POINTS to rate how "awful" Duncan is, but somehow points go completely out the window when it comes to rating how good Carmello is

:rollin

[TDMVPDPOY]

The challenge remains. Create a query where Duncan appears in the top two (he doesnt even have to be first even though its easy to do with the other greats), including regular season and playoffs. Preferably a results set where the values are at least ten (otherwise its just counting fluke games rather than consistent play).

If Duncan is "the greatest", why is he as always at best, THIRD?

third at what actually?

so tell me those players u listed needs to be dominant to win games, while duncan puts up his usual 20/10 to win games...so tell me again whats more important? stat padding or winning games?

[spurraider21]

NUMBER ONE in 26/12/5(assists) games. Shaq, Malone, KG, Dirk, Lebron etc. Theyre all number one at something.

But not Duncan.

:lol can't get more arbitrary than 26-12
:lol Duncan #1 all time in NBA Finals games with 21-20-10 and 8 blocks
:lol Suns
:lol this is like Portland fans arguing Drexler > MJ

[da_suns_fan]

third at what actually?

so tell me those players u listed needs to be dominant to win games, while duncan puts up his usual 20/10 to win games...so tell me again whats more important? stat padding or winning games?

3rd at any query you can come up with (at best third).

[da_suns_fan]

:lol can't get more arbitrary than 26-12
:lol Duncan #1 all time in NBA Finals games with 21-20-10 and 8 blocks
:lol Suns
:lol this is like Portland fans arguing Drexler > MJ

It was actually 26/12/5 (which was the quintessential Barkley game). But its not arbitrary..Barkley was really good at both points and rebounds and even "pretty good" at getting assists.

He wasnt good at great at blocks, but pretty much any query looking for high points, high rebounds and a "decent" number of assist will yield Charles Barkley as number one. Heres 30/12/5:


1 Charles Barkley* F 70
2 Karl Malone* F 66
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 47
4 Shaquille O'Neal C 44
5 Tim Duncan F 38


The original point of the thread, though, was that Duncan didnt have many great games compared to the other greats, which every query proves. Keep it generic (30/15) and Duncan is fifth. Throw in blocks (to filter out Barkley and Malone) and Hakeem and Shaq will still be ahead. Throw in assists (to filter out Shaq and Hakeem) and Barkley and Malone (and others) will be ahead.

Whatever Duncan did "well", there were at least two other players who did it "better".

[Cry Havoc]

NBA All-time defensive rating.

Rank Player DRtg
1. Gar Heard 95.30
2. Tim Duncan 95.37
3. Dave Cowens* 95.52
4. David Robinson* 95.65
5. Ben Wallace 95.76
6. Clifford Ray 96.26
7. Wes Unseld* 96.31
8. Sam Lacey 96.45
9. George Johnson 96.67
10. Paul Silas 96.77

Oops Duncan is 2nd again.

Except way, way ahead of anyone else on the lists.

[Cry Havoc]

Marc Gasol just won DPOY with a defensive rating that's slightly worse than Duncan's career average. Something to think about.

[midnightpulp]

You still dont get it.

Why is Duncan STILL ONLY THIRD?

Barkley is NUMBER ONE in 20/20 games. NUMBER ONE in 26/12/5(assists) games. Shaq, Malone, KG, Dirk, Lebron etc. Theyre all number one at something.

But not Duncan.

Likewise, Im not surprised that you use blocks to filter out barkley and malone since they werent centers and didnt usually get a lot blocks.

However, increasing the number of assists filters out Duncan extremely quick. When it comes to "passing" PFs, theres KG, Barkley and everyone else.

The fact is if you treat Duncan as a center, Shaq and Hakeem will usually be way ahead of him. If you treat him as a PF, then Barkley, Malone and sometimes even KG will be ahead of him.

Because he's not as good as those two? FWIW, Hakeem also played nearly half his career in the 80's/early 90's, so it stands to reason he'd have more "big games."

Barkley and Malone didn't get many blocks because they were terrible/average defenders. Not to mention, they played the majority of their career in an era where the PF had a very different role than it did in Duncan's era (and Tim Duncan dominating the mid-00s at the PF is primarily what forced the change. Competing teams started to employ more long, 7 footer post oriented PFs to match up with Duncan. And once again we're seeing the PF position redefined with more "stretch 4s" who can shoot from outside).

And lol at using assists, which if you watched any Spurs game in their championship era, you'd understand why Duncan didn't tally a lot of big assist games (although he did lead the Spurs in dimes during their '03 run). And no, assists do not quantify passing ability. Larry Bird was tens times the playmaker John Stockton was, but averaged much less assists. If you're a ball dominant stat-whore, you can easily rack up the assists in the NBA.

And I don't care who features number one in your arbitrary "big game" definition, but for arguments sake and to show you how retarded your reasoning is:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Iajj4

Duncan is tied for number one all-time in playoff 20-15-5 assist 50% shooting games.

And tied with your hero if we bump up scoring to 25.

http://bkref.com/tiny/dmXXe

And when we exchange shooting percentage for 1 block (I filtered for only 1 block so it wouldn't :cry Be unfair to Barkley :cry), Duncan ranks alone at the top.

http://bkref.com/tiny/zshWb

I await your spin.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this clown is so up his ass with stats, then tell us what did wilt chamberlain achieve with his godly stats with nothing or little to show for it?

[midnightpulp]

...

[midnightpulp]

And Duncan has a 4 game lead on Shaq in the 25-15-3a-3blk (the "quintessential Duncan game") category:

http://bkref.com/tiny/nTCaw

[Cry Havoc]

There have been few threads in SpursTalk history that are as embarrassing to the OP as this one. If it gets any worse we're going to start posting pictures of Naruto.

[da_suns_fan]

Because he's not as good as those two? FWIW, Hakeem also played nearly half his career in the 80's/early 90's, so it stands to reason he'd have more "big games."

Barkley and Malone didn't get many blocks because they were terrible/average defenders. Not to mention, they played the majority of their career in an era where the PF had a very different role than it did in Duncan's era (and Tim Duncan dominating the mid-00s at the PF is primarily what forced the change. Competing teams started to employ more long, 7 footer post oriented PFs to match up with Duncan. And once again we're seeing the PF position redefined with more "stretch 4s" who can shoot from outside).

And lol at using assists, which if you watched any Spurs game in their championship era, you'd understand why Duncan didn't tally a lot of big assist games (although he did lead the Spurs in dimes during their '03 run). And no, assists do not quantify passing ability. Larry Bird was tens times the playmaker John Stockton was, but averaged much less assists. If you're a ball dominant stat-whore, you can easily rack up the assists in the NBA.

And I don't care who features number one in your arbitrary "big game" definition, but for arguments sake and to show you how retarded your reasoning is:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Iajj4

Duncan is tied for number one all-time in playoff 20-15-5 assist 50% shooting games.

And tied with your hero if we bump up scoring to 25.

http://bkref.com/tiny/dmXXe

And when we exchange shooting percentage for 1 block (I filtered for only 1 block so it wouldn't :cry Be unfair to Barkley :cry), Duncan ranks alone at the top.

http://bkref.com/tiny/zshWb

I await your spin.

As I already mentioned, filtering for playoffs is stupid considering the number of playoff games played is so dramatically different for each player.

Duncan has played in 70 more playoff games than the likes of Barkley, KG (yet Barkley still has more 30/20 playoff games which just really shows how infrequent Duncan was at that feat).

[da_suns_fan]

And Duncan has a 4 game lead on Shaq in the 25-15-3a-3blk (the "quintessential Duncan game") category:

http://bkref.com/tiny/nTCaw

Take off the playoff filter, pussy.

Once again, Duncan can only manage third.

Hes either the third best center or third best power forward any way you spin it.

[da_suns_fan]

this clown is so up his ass with stats, then tell us what did wilt chamberlain achieve with his godly stats with nothing or little to show for it?

Full game logs (all stats) available for the 1985-86 through 2012-13 seasons.
Partial game logs (FG, FT, FTA, and PTS) available for the 1963-64 through 1984-85 seasons.

[Clipper Nation]

:cry "Don't include the playoffs because Barkley choked in them and Duncan didn't!" :cry

[da_suns_fan]

:cry "Don't include the playoffs because Barkley choked in them and Duncan didn't!" :cry

You can include the playoffs, I said just dont ONLY have the playoffs. Despite playing in 70 less playoff games, Barkley still has more 30/20 games IN THE PLAYOFFS than Duncan.

The title of the thread is "Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats..." which we have found to be undeniably true.

End of thread, I think.

[Cry Havoc]

You can include the playoffs, I said just dont ONLY have the playoffs. Despite playing in 70 less playoff games, Barkley still has more 30/20 games IN THE PLAYOFFS than Duncan.

The title of the thread is "Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats..." which we have found to be undeniably true.

End of thread, I think.

This thread was over a couple of pages ago after you were humiliated, son.

[HarlemHeat37]

Although I give Barkley the advantage as the superior offensive player, his playoffs production doesn't really surpass Duncan in any metric, offensively, tbh, even if we ignore totals..

Prime and slightly past prime Barkley's playoff Rebound % is 18.9, while Duncan(using the same criteria) has a rate of 18.7..

Assists is Barkley at 18.3%, and Duncan at 18.9%..

Using PER and WS to summarize the box score numbers(which is essentially what the OP is doing, using simple box score numbers), Barkley posted a total 25.3 PER and 0.201 WS/48, while Duncan posted a 25.6 PER and 0.214 WS/48..

So, offensively, their playoff output is virtually the same, once you adjust for pace, as shown by these numbers..defensively, as pulp already pointed out, the difference is the disparity between Marc Gasol and David Lee, tbh..

If you want to include Karl Malone, it's even easier to roast, since Malone had a reputation of choking in the playoffs, similar to David Robinson, tbh..

OP used arbitrary, cherry-picked numbers to form an argument..once you expand the discussion to include actual evidence and facts, Duncan blows Barkley and Malone out of the water..as for Hakeem and Shaq, I'd have Duncan below both in terms of peak play, but ahead of them from a career perspective..

[ambchang]

You still dont get it.

Why is Duncan STILL ONLY THIRD?

Barkley is NUMBER ONE in 20/20 games. NUMBER ONE in 26/12/5(assists) games. Shaq, Malone, KG, Dirk, Lebron etc. Theyre all number one at something.

But not Duncan.

Likewise, Im not surprised that you use blocks to filter out barkley and malone since they werent centers and didnt usually get a lot blocks.

However, increasing the number of assists filters out Duncan extremely quick. When it comes to "passing" PFs, theres KG, Barkley and everyone else.

The fact is if you treat Duncan as a center, Shaq and Hakeem will usually be way ahead of him. If you treat him as a PF, then Barkley, Malone and sometimes even KG will be ahead of him.


The challenge remains. Create a query where Duncan appears in the top two (he doesnt even have to be first even though its easy to do with the other greats), including regular season and playoffs. Preferably a results set where the values are at least ten (otherwise its just counting fluke games rather than consistent play).

If Duncan is "the greatest", why is he as always at best, THIRD?

Here you go:
number of double doubles
Rank Player Double-Doubles Total Games Played % of DD
1 Karl Malone* 811 1476 55%
2 Tim Duncan 767 1180 65%
3 Kevin Garnett 735 1323 56%
4 Shaquille O'Neal 727 1207 60%
5 Hakeem Olajuwon* 718 1238 58%
6 Charles Barkley* 677 1073 63%
7 Patrick Ewing* 580 1183 49%
8 David Robinson* 543 987 55%


Taking your rant against playoff games because it skewed the data due to total number of games played(I agree) into considering, note that Malone played 1476 regular season games vs. 1180 for Duncan. In fact, of the players with the top number of double double games, Duncan was the most consistent in registering a double double in 65% of the career regular season games he played. The good news is, your idol, Barkley, who I rank as the #2 PF of all time, shows up 2nd at 63%, and #6 overall in number of double doubles.

[HarlemHeat37]

Also, expanding on stretch's argument(re: OP and Carmelo), OP seems to contradict his beliefs from other threads, tbh..

He stupidly had Tyson Chandler(a defensive player that only has 1 skill with the ball on offense, catching for a dunk) on his all-NBA 1st team, yet all of a sudden he doesn't value defense in this thread?..

[midnightpulp]

Take off the playoff filter, pussy.

Once again, Duncan can only manage third.

Hes either the third best center or third best power forward any way you spin it.

Nope. That's when it counts. That's the "real season." The best players in NBA history define themselves in the playoffs. Nobody gave a shit about Lebron's statistical dominance when he was choking against the Mavs. Or Dirk's MVP after he failed against Golden State. Likewise, Kobe's '06 scoring outburst became an afterthought when he underperformed against your Suns.

Spurs fans learned this first hand with David Robinson. In his prime, the most statistical dominant player in the league. If he didn't oblige his naval commitments, if he never got injured, and if Tim Duncan never existed, Robinson would have had a 10-12 year career as a first option player and would've likely led all centers in regular season "big games," and it wouldn't have meant shit if he couldn't meet that same standard in the real season, which players like him and Malone never did.

Barkley is indeed an offensive powerhouse and a much a better player than Malone, but the reason the majority of the NBA world considers Duncan the superior player is because he's in another universe defensively (the same exact argument who used to place Ibaka on the All NBA 2nd team). Call Duncan a center, fine. Give Barkley the label of greatest PF, fine. Ultimately, though, Tim Duncan is a better player than Charles Barkley.

[midnightpulp]

Take off the playoff filter, pussy.

Once again, Duncan can only manage third.

Hes either the third best center or third best power forward any way you spin it.

Nope. That's when it counts. That's the "real season." The best players in NBA history define themselves in the playoffs. Nobody gave a shit about Lebron's statistical dominance when he was choking against the Mavs. Or Dirk's MVP after he failed against Golden State. Likewise, Kobe's '06 scoring outburst became an afterthought when he underperformed against your Suns.

Spurs fans learned this first hand with David Robinson. In his prime, the most statistical dominant player in the league. If he didn't oblige his naval commitments, if he never got injured, and if Tim Duncan never existed, Robinson would have had a 10-12 year career as a first option player and would've likely led all centers in regular season "big games," and it wouldn't have meant shit if he couldn't meet that same standard in the real season, which players like him and Malone never did.

Barkley is indeed an offensive powerhouse and a much a better player than Malone, but the reason the majority of the NBA world considers Duncan the superior player is because he's in another universe defensively (the same exact argument you used to place Ibaka on the All NBA 2nd team). Call Duncan a center, fine. Give Barkley the label of greatest PF, fine. Ultimately, though, Tim Duncan is a better player than Charles Barkley.

[CubanMustGo]

It's been a while, but it looks like OP's off his meds again.

[midnightpulp]

Although I give Barkley the advantage as the superior offensive player, his playoffs production doesn't really surpass Duncan in any metric, offensively, tbh, even if we ignore totals..

Prime and slightly past prime Barkley's playoff Rebound % is 18.9, while Duncan(using the same criteria) has a rate of 18.7..

Assists is Barkley at 18.3%, and Duncan at 18.9%..

Using PER and WS to summarize the box score numbers(which is essentially what the OP is doing, using simple box score numbers), Barkley posted a total 25.3 PER and 0.201 WS/48, while Duncan posted a 25.6 PER and 0.214 WS/48..

So, offensively, their playoff output is virtually the same, once you adjust for pace, as shown by these numbers..defensively, as pulp already pointed out, the difference is the disparity between Marc Gasol and David Lee, tbh..

If you want to include Karl Malone, it's even easier to roast, since Malone had a reputation of choking in the playoffs, similar to David Robinson, tbh..

OP used arbitrary, cherry-picked numbers to form an argument..once you expand the discussion to include actual evidence and facts, Duncan blows Barkley and Malone out of the water..as for Hakeem and Shaq, I'd have Duncan below both in terms of peak play, but ahead of them from a career perspective..

Harlem Heat

[ambchang]

but dsf, you STILL haven't answered your original premise of Jordan > Duncan in big man stats (which were a horrible criteria in the first place) when Duncan > Jordan in 3 of the 4 categories. Could you please answer the question?

[da_suns_fan]

Nope. That's when it counts. That's the "real season." The best players in NBA history define themselves in the playoffs. Nobody gave a shit about Lebron's statistical dominance when he was choking against the Mavs. Or Dirk's MVP after he failed against Golden State. Likewise, Kobe's '06 scoring outburst became an afterthought when he underperformed against your Suns.

Spurs fans learned this first hand with David Robinson. In his prime, the most statistical dominant player in the league. If he didn't oblige his naval commitments, if he never got injured, and if Tim Duncan never existed, Robinson would have had a 10-12 year career as a first option player and would've likely led all centers in regular season "big games," and it wouldn't have meant shit if he couldn't meet that same standard in the real season, which players like him and Malone never did.

Barkley is indeed an offensive powerhouse and a much a better player than Malone, but the reason the majority of the NBA world considers Duncan the superior player is because he's in another universe defensively (the same exact argument you used to place Ibaka on the All NBA 2nd team). Call Duncan a center, fine. Give Barkley the label of greatest PF, fine. Ultimately, though, Tim Duncan is a better player than Charles Barkley.


SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN!!!! :lol

Ive proven my point, I think. The fact remains Duncan hasnt had many great games relative to the others.

[da_suns_fan]

but dsf, you STILL haven't answered your original premise of Jordan > Duncan in big man stats (which were a horrible criteria in the first place) when Duncan > Jordan in 3 of the 4 categories. Could you please answer the question?

Jordan had more 40/10 games than Duncan. I wasnt claiming that Jordan was a better "big man" than duncan, i was just pointing out that Duncan didnt have many 40/10 games (i think he was 17th) because hes really not a great scorer.

[da_suns_fan]

but dsf, you STILL haven't answered your original premise of Jordan > Duncan in big man stats (which were a horrible criteria in the first place) when Duncan > Jordan in 3 of the 4 categories. Could you please answer the question?

Jordan had more 40/10 games than Duncan. I wasnt claiming that Jordan was a better "big man" than duncan, i was just pointing out that Duncan didnt have many 40/10 games (i think he was 17th) because hes really not a great scorer.

[midnightpulp]

As I already mentioned, filtering for playoffs is stupid considering the number of playoff games played is so dramatically different for each player.

Duncan has played in 70 more playoff games than the likes of Barkley, KG (yet Barkley still has more 30/20 playoff games which just really shows how infrequent Duncan was at that feat).

Barkley's Sixers and Suns teams all averaged around 110 points per game and play at much higher pace.

Duncan's Spurs teams averaged around 90.

Christ, are you this retarded? Do you not understand how pace can boost/diminish numbers? I can also explain to you, qualitatively, why Barkley had so many 20 rebound games compared to Duncan (and why Duncan, an all-time great rebounder from a skill set perspective, never had one of those 14/15 rebound seasons and has comparatively less 20 rebound games than other bigs) but since you're about a trillion brain cells short of an average IQ, I won't bother.

But yeah, Barkley was a better scorer than Duncan. So what? David Lee is a better scorer than Serge Ibaka (the player you have on the All NBA 2nd team because of his defense).

[ambchang]

Jordan had more 40/10 games than Duncan. I wasnt claiming that Jordan was a better "big man" than duncan, i was just pointing out that Duncan didnt have many 40/10 games (i think he was 17th) because hes really not a great scorer.

Except that wasn't what you said. You said


Im saying Jordan had more amazing games using "forward/center" statistics than Duncan did (and Jordans not even a F/C).

Try to keep up.

You explicitly said those were forward/center stats (big man stats), and Jordan had more of them. Except that 40 points is not a big man stat, and you ignored the other 3 criterion you set up in your very first post.

Also awaiting your response on the number of career double doubles by Duncan.

[midnightpulp]

SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN!!!! :lol

Ive proven my point, I think. The fact remains Duncan hasnt had many great games relative to the others.

You haven't proven anything. All you've proven is that some players meet your arbitrary standards in the regular seas:loln.

The playoffs are when the best players/teams face up against each other. When the opposition can scheme for a week to try and stop you. When the pressure is on. Performing well in the playoffs is magnitudes more impressive than tallying a bunch of "big games" in the regular season against lottery teams and coasting contenders.

[da_suns_fan]

Barkley's Sixers and Suns teams all averaged around 110 points per game and play at much higher pace.

Duncan's Spurs team averaged around 90.

Christ, are you this retarded? Do you not understand how pace can boost/diminish numbers? I can also explain to you, qualitatively, why Barkley had so many 20 rebound games compared to Duncan (and why Duncan, an all-time great rebounder from a skill set perspective, never had one of those 14/15 rebound seasons and has comparatively less 20 rebound games than other bigs) but since you're about a trillion brain cells short of an average IQ, I won't bother.

But yeah, Barkley was a better scorer than Duncan. So what? David Lee is a better scorer than Serge Ibaka (the player you have on the All NBA 2nd team because of his defense).

"Pace matters" is a very valid argument. But the fact remains "Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...". YOU decide what a "great game" is. Duncan will show up third, at best.

Even in your "playoffs matter most queries", the result set shows such a few number of games. Even if Duncan is number one in your particular "great playoff game" query, he only did it a handful times. Hence, "Duncan hasnt had that MANY "great" games relative to other greats".

Its fun to watch you guys get so angry when faced with the truth. Duncan's really not that impressive. You want to use the "pace" excuse, go ahead. Shaq didnt need it and he played in the same era.

Checkmate, buddy. Im out.

[midnightpulp]

"Pace matters" is a very valid argument. But the fact remains "Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...". YOU decide what a "great game" is. Duncan will show up third, at best.

Even in your "playoffs matter most queries", the result set shows such a few number of games. Even if Duncan is number one in your particular "great playoff game" query, he only did it a handful times. Hence, "Duncan hasnt had that MANY "great" games relative to other greats".

Its fun to watch you guys get so angry when faced with the truth. Duncan's really not that impressive. You want to use the "pace" excuse, go ahead. Shaq didnt need it and he played in the same era.

Checkmate, buddy. Im out.

But Shaq didn't play in the same system or on the same team. David Lee and Marc Gasol also play in the same era. So?

I'll take that "checkmate, I'm out" line as your concession.

You're up to your chin in semen here, so it was wise for you to depart before you drowned.

[midnightpulp]

I also like the way OP ignored HH's post.

Again:


Although I give Barkley the advantage as the superior offensive player, his playoffs production doesn't really surpass Duncan in any metric, offensively, tbh, even if we ignore totals..

Prime and slightly past prime Barkley's playoff Rebound % is 18.9, while Duncan(using the same criteria) has a rate of 18.7..

Assists is Barkley at 18.3%, and Duncan at 18.9%..

Using PER and WS to summarize the box score numbers(which is essentially what the OP is doing, using simple box score numbers), Barkley posted a total 25.3 PER and 0.201 WS/48, while Duncan posted a 25.6 PER and 0.214 WS/48..

So, offensively, their playoff output is virtually the same, once you adjust for pace, as shown by these numbers..defensively, as pulp already pointed out, the difference is the disparity between Marc Gasol and David Lee, tbh..

If you want to include Karl Malone, it's even easier to roast, since Malone had a reputation of choking in the playoffs, similar to David Robinson, tbh..

OP used arbitrary, cherry-picked numbers to form an argument..once you expand the discussion to include actual evidence and facts, Duncan blows Barkley and Malone out of the water..as for Hakeem and Shaq, I'd have Duncan below both in terms of peak play, but ahead of them from a career perspective..

[resistanze]

As I already mentioned, filtering for playoffs is stupid considering the number of playoff games played is so dramatically different for each player.


Duncan 192
Malone 193
Shaq 216
Barkley 123

They're not dramatically different at all, what are you talking about?

The only player with noticeably less playoff games is....Barkley. What doesn't look good for him, unless you're using the "BUT his team!" excuse.

Why was Duncan significantly ahead of Shaq and Malone in many of the stats HH posted, considering their playoff game totals are similar?

[manufan10]

To steal from Cully, boiled down it's:

Duncan 4

TOSB Barkley/Malone 0

teehee

[da_suns_fan]

But Shaq didn't play in the same system or on the same team. David Lee and Marc Gasol also play in the same era. So?

I'll take that "checkmate, I'm out" line as your concession.

You're up to your chin in semen here, so it was wise for you to depart before you drowned.

Theres nothing else to say. I challenged you to disprove my hypothesis that Duncan hasnt had as many "great" games as the other great Forwards and centers which you have failed to do.

The best youve done is say "its because of pace". Okay, if you want to attribute to the Spurs slow, boring system that a valid argument. But the FACT remains that Duncan hasnt had as many great games relative to the other great players.

We can go on for another five pages but it wont change the number 30/15 games Duncan has had. OR 40/15 games hes had (he shows up lower than quite a few people there). Or the number of 20/10/2/3 games he had etc.

Blame it on pace if you want, but the statement is undeniably true.

[Sean Cagney]

And you would still take him on his team and his 4 Rings and smile....... Thats all that really needs to be said Suns fan. He is conistency and Longevity! He will put up 20 and 10 while another gets 40 pts and someone else gets 15 boards in a game, but he dominates the game quiety and his longevity (Career) is just crazy. Like someone said as well he is far better a defender than most on that list, he does it on both sides of the ball and without flash so it doesn't get noticed as much. Charles Barkley called him groundhog day, best way to describe Tim.



How many of those so called great games from others lead to rings? Tim had his monster games as well don't get me wrong, but numbers alone do not equate to wins (Kevin Love etc. says hi).

[midnightpulp]

Theres nothing else to say. I challenged you to disprove my hypothesis that Duncan hasnt had as many "great" REGULAR SEASON games as the other great Forwards and centers which you have failed to do.

The best youve done is say "its because of pace". Okay, if you want to attribute to the Spurs slow, boring system that a valid argument. But the FACT remains that Duncan hasnt had as many great games relative to the other great players.

We can go on for another five pages but it wont change the number 30/15 games Duncan has had. OR 40/15 games hes had (he shows up lower than quite a few people there). Or the number of 20/10/2/3 games he had etc.

Blame it on pace if you want, but the statement is undeniably true.

And greatness isn't defined in the regular season. Stamp your feet all you want, but that's a fact. No one gives a shit about a 40-15 game on a Wednesday night in December against the Bucks or something.

I've more than proven Duncan has had more great games (as per my arbitrary definition) than nearly all other bigs in the playoffs.

But continue to place primary importance on the regular seas:loln. Most NBA fans don't.

[manufan10]

What are the winning percentages in those games? I'm curious to see if those monster games equaled wins for those players or not.

[da_suns_fan]

And greatness isn't defined in the regular season. Stamp your feet all you want, but that's a fact. No one gives a shit about a 40-15 game on a Wednesday night in December against the Bucks or something.

I've more than proven Duncan has had more great games (as per my arbitrary definition) than nearly all other bigs in the playoffs.

But continue to place primary importance on the regular seas:loln. Most NBA fans don't.

A great game is a great game. Regardless if happens in December or June.

The fact remains Duncan really didnt have that many great games relative to other greats.

Im claiming victory now.

[da_suns_fan]

What are the winning percentages in those games? I'm curious to see if those monster games equaled wins for those players or not.

Cake.

Number of 30/15 games in which they WON:


1 Shaquille O'Neal C 94
2 Charles Barkley* F 63
3 Karl Malone* F 55
4 Hakeem Olajuwon* 54
5 Tim Duncan F 39

Duncans a distant fifth in that one.

[ambchang]

dsf ignoring me on his dumbass Jordan comments.

Also ignoring double double games as a sign of consistency, and his random use of stats as a "standard".

:tu

[midnightpulp]

FWIW, Duncan vs. Shaq in the playoffs. A 30 games large sample size.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=duncati01#stats_playoffs::none

Both players, one of which who's had quite more of your regular season "great games," in the same environment, playing at the same pace against each other. Granted, Shaq's Suns games brings down his averages, but even if we remove those, both guys play each other to about a wash.

[HarlemHeat37]

Theres nothing else to say. I challenged you to disprove my hypothesis that Duncan hasnt had as many "great" games as the other great Forwards and centers which you have failed to do.

The best youve done is say "its because of pace". Okay, if you want to attribute to the Spurs slow, boring system that a valid argument. But the FACT remains that Duncan hasnt had as many great games relative to the other great players.

I've already proven that Duncan had as many, or more, great playoffs games as the others:lol..

You moved the goal posts to ":( but he played more games :("..

Even if you want to ignore my other arguments, as you have conveniently done the past 2 pages, the central premise of your thread is that Duncan hasn't had as many TOTAL "BIG" GAMES as the other players on your lists..

I've already proven that Duncan does very well on the list of great playoffs TOTAL "BIG" GAMES..you can continue moving the goal posts to "games played" and "supporting casts", but that wasn't your original argument..

[resistanze]

I've already proven that Duncan had as many, or more, great games as the others:lol..

You moved the goal posts to ":( but he played more games :("..
Which is funny because he's played less playoff games than Malone & Shaq but matches/beats them in many 'great' games....

[manufan10]

Cake.

Number of 30/15 games in which they WON:



Duncans a distant fifth in that one.

Yet 2 of them couldn't even lead their teams to championships.

So boiled down it's:

Duncan 4

TOSB Barkley/Malone 0

[midnightpulp]

A great game is a great game. Regardless if happens in December or June.

The fact remains Duncan really didnt have that many great games relative to other greats.

Im claiming victory now.

A 20-10 game in the Finals is much greater than a 30-15 game in November.

And Duncan has had plenty of great games relative to other greats. In the playoffs, where and when it counts.

Regular Seas:loln stats.

And Carmelo has about about 60 greater games than Faried this year, yet you place Faried over Anthony on the All NBA team. Why? Because you feel his defensive/qualitative contributions to his team outweigh Melo's offense contributions to his. While it is extremely retarded to place Faried over Melo, your logic is actually sound. Funny how you don't afford Duncan the same in your comparisons with Barkley, Malone, and even Shaq, who Duncan was a much better defender than, as well.

Consistently apply your logic or don't apply it all.

But I get your motivation behind this thread.

":cry How dare they say Duncan is the greatest PF of all-time when Barkley has so many more regular season "great games." :cry

You want the greatest PF of all-time label for your precious Barkley, here it is. I've always considered Duncan something of a hybrid tweener.

Just know Barkley ain't the better player (and not one advanced stat proves otherwise), no matter how many regular season 30-15 games he tallied in the high paced 80's.

[HarlemHeat37]

Which is funny because he's played less playoff games than Malone & Shaq but matches/beats them in many 'great' games....

Ya, his argument is all over the place:lol..

He always picks and chooses which posts he's going to reply to, as well..

[HarlemHeat37]

^ :lol ya, his contradictory arguments are puzzling..

His all-NBA teams included:

Tyson Chandler(good to great defensive player that only contributes on offense through screens and spoon-fed dunks)

Kenneth Faried(very good rebounder, great hustle player, mediocre defender that only scores on spoon-fed dunks and putbacks)

Paul George(average scorer, above average passer, good rebounder and good to great defensive player)


Yet this thread has shown us a 180 in his preferences and values in players:lol..

[ohmwrecker]

Even Charles Barkley thinks Tim Duncan is better than Charles Barkley.

[midnightpulp]

^ :lol ya, his contradictory arguments are puzzling..

His all-NBA teams included:

Tyson Chandler(good to great defensive player that only contributes on offense through screens and spoon-fed dunks)

Kenneth Faried(very good rebounder, great hustle player, mediocre defender that only scores on spoon-fed dunks and putbacks)

Paul George(average scorer, above average passer, good rebounder and good to great defensive player)


Yet this thread has shown us a 180 in his preferences and values in players:lol..

Yep. Just like Malone fans. He's ass-pained that Duncan has the GPFOAT title and is spinning like a top trying to find whatever "evidence" he can to disprove that notion.

And just like Malone fans, he uses regular seas:loln stats.

[SpursRock20]

So this is what I've gotten so far from this thread...

People like the OP hate on Duncan because of his demeanor. He is quietly dominant and doesn't say a damn word. That pisses opposing players and fans off. It makes them that much madder when he consistently does it again and again in the exact same fashion. This hate manifests itself. Once again (who is now 37) outplays a supposedly more dominant player in this Lakers series. The OP (who has no more Suns games to watch) notices this and his hate for the "boring" big man returns. He fetches some stats to help prove to himself that Duncan really is not that great, but just a good player who got lucky to be shipped to San Antonio :lol, was fortunate to be on a team that could only build through the draft :lol, and could not put up great games because he was not able to :lol.

The OP gets a reasonable rebuttal (difference in pace) for the discrepancy in the so-called "big games" between Duncan and some of the other all-time great big men, yet still spews the same shit out of his mouth. One of the many reasons I believe Duncan to be an all-time great is due to the fact that he continually puts up great games without any emotion. He's playing a game where flair and emotion are abundant, but he would rather play a game of poker. Haters can't understand how someone so dominant can be so emotionless, so some (like the OP) try to convince themselves that he must not be dominant and go and fetch raw stats without looking into the numbers.

I think this sums up the thread pretty well. Amazing how ignorant some people truly are.

[midnightpulp]

So this is what I've gotten so far from this thread...

People like the OP hate on Duncan because they're Barkley fans. He is quietly dominant and doesn't say a damn word. That pisses opposing players and fans off. It makes them that much madder when he consistently does it again and again in the exact same fashion. This hate manifests itself. Once again (who is now 37) outplays a supposedly more dominant player in this Lakers series. The OP (who has no more Suns games to watch) notices this and his hate for the "boring" big man returns. He fetches some stats to help prove to himself that Duncan really is not that great, but just a good player who got lucky to be shipped to San Antonio :lol, was fortunate to be on a team that could only build through the draft :lol, and could not put up great games because he was not able to :lol.

The OP gets a reasonable rebuttal (difference in pace) for the discrepancy in the so-called "big games" between Duncan and some of the other all-time great big men, yet still spews the same shit out of his mouth. One of the many reasons I believe Duncan to be an all-time great is due to the fact that he continually puts up great games without and he does it with out any emotion. He's playing a game where flair and emotion are abundant, but he would rather play a game of poker. Haters can't understand how someone so dominant can be so emotionless, so some (like the OP) try to convince themselves that he must not be dominant and go and fetch raw stats without looking into the numbers.

I think this sums up the thread pretty well. Amazing how ignorant some people truly are.

Fixed.

[SpursRock20]

Yeah, I see that he is a Barkley fan and is biased but we are Duncan fans and the same could be said of us. I really believe that the lack of respect for Duncan comes from his character.

[manufan10]

Check out the NBA Finals stats. I used each series that all players played in 6 games, so that there is no discrepancies in :cry games played. :cry

Tim Duncan (2003): 24.2 PPG 17 TRB 5.3 AST 1.0 STL 5.3 BLK
Charles Barkley (1993): 27.3 PPG 13 TRB 5.5 AST 1.2 STL 0.5 BLK
Karl Malone (1998): 25 PPG 10.5 TRB 3.8 AST 1.0 STL 1.2 BLK

For Karl Malone, both Finals appearances went 6 games, so I went with his best stats which happened to be in 1998.

[da_suns_fan]

Yep. Just like Malone fans. He's ass-pained that Duncan has the GPFOAT title and is spinning like a top trying to find whatever "evidence" he can to disprove that notion.

And just like Malone fans, he uses regular seas:loln stats.


Im not clinging to regular season. Im counting both regular season and playoffs. YOU want to throw out the regular season because Duncan's regular season games are so...boring.

Ambchang - Jordan had more 40 point 10 rebound games than Duncan. A lot more.

Deal with it.

[da_suns_fan]

Yeah, I see that he is a Barkley fan and is biased but we are Duncan fans and the same could be said of us. I really believe that the lack of respect for Duncan comes from his character.

No disrespect here. Just pointing out Duncan didnt have a lot of big games relative to the other greats.

The responses you see are the butt-hurt Spurs fans who cant deal with it.

[ambchang]

Im not clinging to regular season. Im counting both regular season and playoffs. YOU want to throw out the regular season because Duncan's regular season games are so...boring.

Ambchang - Jordan had more 40 point 10 rebound games than Duncan. A lot more.

Deal with it.

Never said he didn't have. Numbers are numbers, and neither you nor I could change it.

My question isn't how Jordan had more 40/10 games, my question had to do with your assertion that Jordan had more good big man games than Duncan, when Jordan did worse in three of the four categories you set out.

Another question is why 40 points would have anything to do with a big man game. In fact, 9 of the top 20 players in that 40/10 list weren't even big man in the NBA sense, but guards and forwards.

[ambchang]

No disrespect here. Just pointing out Duncan didnt have a lot of big games relative to the other greats.

The responses you see are the butt-hurt Spurs fans who cant deal with it.

The problem isn't the number of games, the problem is the wild conclusions you drew out of it, where you said Duncan wasn't as dominant, where you said Jordan had more better big man games, where you said Malone and Barkley were better because of these. It has been proven wrong over and over again, and you refuse to admit it, then move the goal post time and time again. That's the problem.

I understand you are trying to troll, but please use something that is less easily refuted next time. All these post by Spurs fans are just telling you how horrible a job you did at trolling. You have to live with it.

[da_suns_fan]

Never said he didn't have. Numbers are numbers, and neither you nor I could change it.

My question isn't how Jordan had more 40/10 games, my question had to do with your assertion that Jordan had more good big man games than Duncan, when Jordan did worse in three of the four categories you set out.

Another question is why 40 points would have anything to do with a big man game. In fact, 9 of the top 20 players in that 40/10 list weren't even big man in the NBA sense, but guards and forwards.

Ive answered this like five times already.

You need to get over it. YOu can still like Duncan if you want. :lol

[midnightpulp]

No disrespect here. Just pointing out Duncan didnt have a lot of big games relative to the other greats.

The responses you see are the butt-hurt Spurs fans who cant deal with it.

No, we're trying to enlighten you to how stupid your argument is.

We can deal with Duncan having plenty of big playoff games relative to other greats. That's all that matters.

We can also deal with Duncan being second all-time in playoff games in which he shot over 50%, which he's managed to do 57% of the time, which is a better percentage than Hakeem, Malone, and your precious Barkley.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=career&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=Y&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=fg_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.50&c4stat=blk&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

[da_suns_fan]

No, we're trying to enlighten you to how stupid your argument is.

We can deal with Duncan having plenty of big playoff games relative to other greats. That's all that matters.

We can also deal with Duncan being second all-time in playoff games in which he shot over 50%, which he's managed to do 57% of the time, which is better percentage than Hakeem, Malone, and your precious Barkley.

Hahah..throw out reg season cuz duncans so boring. :lol

[da_suns_fan]

Dont penalize Shaq, Barkley, Malone or Hakeem just because Duncan is boring.

Their regular season games should count midnight. Its not their fault Duncans so "meh". :lol

[da_suns_fan]

Midnight is in full "meltdown" mode. :lol

[midnightpulp]

Hahah..throw out Duncans boring regular seasons.

Yep. Spurs pace themselves during the regular season, Duncan included. They go 10-12 deep and try to limit their stars minutes as much as they can. This is a known fact.

If D'Antoni understood that when he was with you guys, Nash wouldn't have a foot in the grave right now and Amare would've went down as an all-time great.

Your argument doesn't consider any variables, just looks at raw per game stats (which in themselves are flawed) and that's why it's retarded.

[Clipper Nation]

Hahah..throw out reg season cuz duncans so boring. :lol
At least you're finally admitting the real purpose of this thread, which is to blindly hate on Tim Duncan :tu

:cry "Duncan's boring, so there!" :cry

[midnightpulp]

Midnight is in full "meltdown" mode. :lol

Yeah, you were just trolling all along right?

Nope. You really believe in your asinine argument and are deflecting with the "I troll you" defense because you've been thoroughly submerged in our semen and are desperately trying to swim your way out.

Stopping paddling and kicking and just drown. It's more honorable for you that way. Get back to your Faried>Melo argument, which was surprisingly less moronic than your efforts here.

[SpursRock20]

No disrespect here. Just pointing out Duncan didnt have a lot of big games relative to the other greats.

The responses you see are the butt-hurt Spurs fans who cant deal with it.

Let's see...


Number of 20/10 games:



Anyway you slice it, Duncan gets a big "meh".

As far as Jordan/Duncan, youre probably too dense to understand: Jordan had far more 40/10 games even though he was a shooting guard (who tend not to have double digit rebounds) because it was FAR more likely that Jordan would grab 10 rebounds (to go along with his usual 40 points) than Duncan having a 40 point game (to go along with his usual ten rebounds). And its not just Jordan. Its Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Melo etc.

Bottom line: Duncan isnt a great scorer.


No..Spurs fans argue that Duncan didnt have "great games" but a ton of "good games" yet he didnt nearly as many "good games" as either Malone or Shaq.

Barkley didnt have as many "good games" as Duncan but in his own way he was better than anyone else.

Number of 20 point/20 rebound games:


You see now?

As far as Duncan/Jordan, youre either an idiot or just pretending to be. Duncan didnt have as many great games as his peers (title of thread). The first query reveals several wings had far more 40 point/10 rebound games than Duncan did because Duncan's not a great scorer.

Hes not a great scorer. Hes not a great rebounder. He's consistently "good" at both but not nearly as consistent as Malone or Shaq.

And no, i did not factor in "pace". Funny that Shaq/Barkley/Malone dont need the EXCUSES that spurs fans give Duncan.

Seems like a lot of butt-hurt disrespect. But whatever.

[da_suns_fan]

At least you're finally admitting the real purpose of this thread, which is to blindly hate on Tim Duncan :tu

:cry "Duncan's boring, so there!" :cry

No, Duncan is boring during the regular season so Spurs fans want to throw out regular season games when comparing to other players (who arent boring during the regular season).

It aint their fault Duncan cant light it up on a nightly basis!

[Clipper Nation]

Duncan coasts and rests in the regular season, tbh.... maybe if your boy Barkley had saved his energy for the playoffs, he would have rang instead of being a career choke artist :lol

[spurraider21]

SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN!!!! :lol

Ive proven my point, I think. The fact remains Duncan hasnt had many great games relative to the others.
I consider title clinching games to be the greatest of them all tbh

[midnightpulp]

No, Duncan is boring during the regular season so Spurs fans want to throw out regular season games when comparing to other players (who arent boring during the regular season).

It aint their fault Duncan cant light it up on a nightly basis!

Duncan prevents the other team from lighting it up on a nightly basis. Something Barkley never did since he was a midget big man and one of the laziest defenders in NBA history.

[SpursRock20]

No, Duncan is boring during the regular season so Spurs fans want to throw out regular season games when comparing to other players (who arent boring during the regular season).

It aint their fault Duncan cant light it up on a nightly basis!

The only thing I want to see out of Duncan during the regular season is for him to emerge from it healthy and ready to play when it matters most.

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan coasts and rests in the regular season, tbh.... maybe if your boy Barkley had saved his energy for the playoffs, he would have rang instead of being a career choke artist :lol

Shaq and Hakeem were able to do it in the regular season, playoffs and win championships.

Duncan didnt.

[ambchang]

Ive answered this like five times already.

You need to get over it. YOu can still like Duncan if you want. :lol

No you haven't. You said Jordan had more good big man games than Duncan, but is now changi your tune to having more 40/10 games. Which really doesn't say a whole lot.

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan prevents the other team from lighting it up on a nightly basis. Something Barkley never did since he was a midget big man and one of the laziest defenders in NBA history.

But Shaq and Hakeem did! Whats Duncan's excuse now?

How come Duncan couldnt do what they did?

So far, Duncan's excuses include:

1) Pace
2) respective point guard (my fav)
3) Duncan doesnt care
4) He plays defense so he doesnt have energy for points/rebounds
5) Deflect to other DSF thread.

What else ya got?

[SpursBills]

lmao 7 pages of text later and finally we get to the crux of OP's assertions - "duncan is boring"

at least he hasn't baited any spur fans into using the rings argument yet

[ambchang]

Shaq and Hakeem were able to do it in the regular season, playoffs and win championships.

Duncan didnt.

But both Hakeem and shaq had more regular season games than Duncan. Which directly contradicts with you throw out playoff games because Duncan played in more of those (which has been proven to be false)

[midnightpulp]

Shaq and Hakeem were able to do it in the regular season, playoffs and win championships.

Duncan didnt.

Do what?

Duncan has more 25-15-3blk 50% shooting games than every big man not named Hakeem or Shaq since 1986.

What's your argument exactly? That Duncan isn't as good as those two? Even if he isn't (and many think he's not), he's still a superior player to Chuck. And that is the source of your ass pain.

[da_suns_fan]

lmao 7 pages of text later and finally we get to the crux of OP's assertions - "duncan is boring"

at least he hasn't baited any spur fans into using the rings argument yet

Not really. The original point of the thread was looking at how many "great games" each player has had.

It didnt turn into a "boring" thing until midnight INSISTED that reg season shouldnt count!! Since Duncan has such few big regular season games, throw everyone else's out too!!

Too funny! Maybe we should throw out Stockton's assist record since so many were in the regular season. :lol

[da_suns_fan]

But both Hakeem and shaq had more regular season games than Duncan. Which directly contradicts with you throw out playoff games because Duncan played in more of those (which has been proven to be false)

I didnt say "throw out playoff games". ALL of my queries include both playoffs and regular season (since they should both count when looking at how many great games a player had).

btw - Duncan played in a lot more playoff games than both Barkley and Garnett.

Deal with it.

[Clipper Nation]

Shaq and Hakeem were able to do it in the regular season, playoffs and win championships.

Duncan didnt.
Shaq was one of the laziest superstars of all time with a notoriously bad work ethic, really just a poor example of an all-year hard worker :lol

[SpursRock20]

I didnt say "throw out playoff games". ALL of my queries include both playoffs and regular season (since they should both count when looking at how many great games a player had).

btw - Duncan played in a lot more playoff games than both Barkley and Garnett.

Deal with it.

Hmmm, I wonder why. Could it be because he was perhaps better?

[midnightpulp]

I didnt say "throw out playoff games". ALL of my queries include both playoffs and regular season (since they should both count when looking at how many great games a player had).

btw - Duncan played in a lot more playoff games than both Barkley and Garnett.

Deal with it.

Not than them combined, and guess what, in Barkley and KG's combined 250 playoff games to Duncan's 193, they never once achieved a "great game" of 25-15-5a-3blks.

Duncan has done it 7 times. Most all-time since '86.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=career&year_min=&year_max=2013&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=Y&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=blk&c3comp=gt&c3val=3&c4stat=ast&c4comp=gt&c4val=5&order_by=pts

Spin for me now.

[da_suns_fan]

Not than them combined, and guess what, in Barkley and KG's combined 250 playoff games to Duncan's 193, they never once achieved a "great game" of 25-15-5a-3blks.

Duncan has done it 7 times. Most all-time since '86.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=career&year_min=&year_max=2013&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=Y&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=blk&c3comp=gt&c3val=3&c4stat=ast&c4comp=gt&c4val=5&order_by=pts

Spin for me now.

Take off the "playoff" filter, pussy:

1 Shaquille O'Neal C 34
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 32
3 Tim Duncan F 24

Duncan gets the bronze again!! :lol

[midnightpulp]

Let's pop up the scoring to 30 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=career&year_min=&year_max=2013&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=Y&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=blk&c3comp=gt&c3val=3&c4stat=ast&c4comp=gt&c4val=5&order_by=pts

Duncan doubles up Hakeem + 1, and has 5 times as many of those "great games" as Shaq.

Spin for me some more.

[midnightpulp]

Take off the "playoff" filter, pussy:

1 Shaquille O'Neal C 34
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 32
3 Tim Duncan F 24

Duncan gets the bronze again!! :lol

Regular seas:loln

[midnightpulp]

I hate to go for the cheap burn, but I understand why DSF focuses so much on the regular season. It's the only time the Suns were any good.

[Brunodf]

:lmaoDavid Lee of the 90s

[da_suns_fan]

I hate to go for the cheap burn, but I understand why DSF focuses so much on the regular season. It's the only time the Suns were any good.

Im not "focusing" on either. MY queries include both.

Yours dont.

Youre trying to HIDE Duncan's career of "meh" games!! :lol You cant blame the media for calling him boring when the majority of the time he was so unextraordinary.

[SpursRock20]

I hate to go for the cheap burn, but I understand why DSF focuses so much on the regular season. It's the only time the Suns were any good.

:lmao Let's be fair, they were a good playoff team until they met the Spurs....


http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/gifs/game1_3point.gif

[SpursRock20]

Im not "focusing" on either. MY queries include both.

Yours dont.

Youre trying to HIDE Duncan's career of "meh" games!! :lol You cant blame the media for calling him boring when the majority of the time he was so unextraordinary.

He averages 20 points and 10 rebounds for his career. Explain to me how that is "meh".

[da_suns_fan]

He averages 20 points and 10 rebounds for his career. Explain to me how that is "meh".

Here ya go:


meh
Web definitions
"Meh" is an interjection, often an expression of apathy, indifference, or boredom.

Duncan: The king of "meh"!!

[da_suns_fan]

ALWAYS fun to show up and bring truth to the masses. I really should do something more productive.

[SpursRock20]

Here ya go:



Duncan: The king of "meh"!!

Okay you didn't answer my question. How is 20 and 10 an "expression of boredom"?

[Aztecfan03]

You still haven't responded to double-doubles right? Sorry if i missed something but I kind of had to skim parts because your sht is so old.

[midnightpulp]

Im not "focusing" on either. MY queries include both.

Yours dont.

Youre trying to HIDE Duncan's career of "meh" games!! :lol You cant blame the media for calling him boring when the majority of the time he was so unextraordinary.

He wasn't, though. Lacking behind two of the greatest, if not the two greatest big men, to play the game doesn't mean he was "unextraordinary" (which is relative to the viewer. Chuck dropping 30-15 but playing lazy defense and losing sight of John Paxson might be "extraordinary" to you, but to me, it's ordinary). It means he wasn't as consistently extraordinary in the regular seas:loln as those two. We've seen Duncan trails only those two in "big man big games" in the modern era (and playing around with a variety of filters, the only players who best Duncan are usually Hakeem and Shaq. What? Duncan has to be the greatest big man of all-time for you to consider him "extraordinary?")

But for shits and giggles, 30-15-3a-5blk games for both reg season and playoffs:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=career&year_min=&year_max=2013&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=blk&c3comp=gt&c3val=3&c4stat=ast&c4comp=gt&c4val=5&order_by=pts

Second all-time since '86.

Pretty extraordinary.

And again, you're retarded. Just drown now and let your corpse float.

[spurraider21]

I didnt say "throw out playoff games". ALL of my queries include both playoffs and regular season (since they should both count when looking at how many great games a player had).

btw - Duncan played in a lot more playoff games than both Barkley and Garnett.

Deal with it.
thats a good stat on its own to prove Duncan > Barkley and Garnett tbh


Do what?

Duncan has more 25-15-3blk 50% shooting games than every big man not named Hakeem or Shaq since 1986.

What's your argument exactly? That Duncan isn't as good as those two? Even if he isn't (and many think he's not), he's still a superior player to Chuck. And that is the source of your ass pain.


NBA All-time defensive rating.

Rank Player DRtg
1. Gar Heard 95.30
2. Tim Duncan 95.37
3. Dave Cowens* 95.52
4. David Robinson* 95.65
5. Ben Wallace 95.76
6. Clifford Ray 96.26
7. Wes Unseld* 96.31
8. Sam Lacey 96.45
9. George Johnson 96.67
10. Paul Silas 96.77

Oops Duncan is 2nd again.

Except way, way ahead of anyone else on the lists.


Although I give Barkley the advantage as the superior offensive player, his playoffs production doesn't really surpass Duncan in any metric, offensively, tbh, even if we ignore totals..

Prime and slightly past prime Barkley's playoff Rebound % is 18.9, while Duncan(using the same criteria) has a rate of 18.7..

Assists is Barkley at 18.3%, and Duncan at 18.9%..

Using PER and WS to summarize the box score numbers(which is essentially what the OP is doing, using simple box score numbers), Barkley posted a total 25.3 PER and 0.201 WS/48, while Duncan posted a 25.6 PER and 0.214 WS/48..

So, offensively, their playoff output is virtually the same, once you adjust for pace, as shown by these numbers..defensively, as pulp already pointed out, the difference is the disparity between Marc Gasol and David Lee, tbh..

If you want to include Karl Malone, it's even easier to roast, since Malone had a reputation of choking in the playoffs, similar to David Robinson, tbh..

OP used arbitrary, cherry-picked numbers to form an argument..once you expand the discussion to include actual evidence and facts, Duncan blows Barkley and Malone out of the water..as for Hakeem and Shaq, I'd have Duncan below both in terms of peak play, but ahead of them from a career perspective..


Here you go:
number of double doubles
Rank Player Double-Doubles Total Games Played % of DD
1 Karl Malone* 811 1476 55%
2 Tim Duncan 767 1180 65%
3 Kevin Garnett 735 1323 56%
4 Shaquille O'Neal 727 1207 60%
5 Hakeem Olajuwon* 718 1238 58%
6 Charles Barkley* 677 1073 63%
7 Patrick Ewing* 580 1183 49%
8 David Robinson* 543 987 55%


Taking your rant against playoff games because it skewed the data due to total number of games played(I agree) into considering, note that Malone played 1476 regular season games vs. 1180 for Duncan. In fact, of the players with the top number of double double games, Duncan was the most consistent in registering a double double in 65% of the career regular season games he played. The good news is, your idol, Barkley, who I rank as the #2 PF of all time, shows up 2nd at 63%, and #6 overall in number of double doubles.
:lol this thread is such a pathetic attempt to downgrade timmy
:lol picking arbitrary numbers to "prove" he's not as good as those guys
:lol doesn't like playoff filter because those are games that mean more and come against superior competition
:lol doesn't like defensive stats

[da_suns_fan]

Okay you didn't answer my question. How is 20 and 10 an "expression of boredom"?

Because its not extraordinary. Players have 20/10 in MOST NBA games. You can give Duncan credit for the sheer amount of these games, but he still didnt have as many as Malone or Shaq so who cares?

Where are Duncan's BIG GAMES? Maybe Im spoiled but I wanna see lots of 35 points and 12 rebound games from the dominant big men considered "greatest ever":


1 Shaquille O'Neal C 116
2 Karl Malone* F 87
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* C 1986 1997 74
4 Charles Barkley* F 71
5 Patrick Ewing* C 58
6 David Robinson* C 42
7 Tim Duncan F 29
8 Dirk Nowitzki F 27

Duncan just barely beats out Dirk (who was never a great rebounder). You can really see where the "cutoff" is after David Robinson.

So yeah..i give Duncan a big "meh".

[midnightpulp]

ALWAYS fun to show up and bring truth to the masses. I really should do something more productive.

Like put Serge Ibaka and Kenneth Faried on All NBA teams?

But seriously, the most productive thing you could do is breathe less oxygen.

[da_suns_fan]

You still haven't responded to double-doubles right? Sorry if i missed something but I kind of had to skim parts because your sht is so old.

2nd all time in double doubles.

Great.

[da_suns_fan]

Like put Serge Ibaka and Kenneth Faried on All NBA teams?

But seriously, the most productive thing you could do is breathe less oxygen.

Deflection wont help you hide Timmy's deficiencies!


No matter what you do, someone always did it better than duncan!!

[da_suns_fan]

But seriously, the most productive thing you could do is breathe less oxygen.

LOL! :lol

Translation: You've made me so mad I'd wish you'd DIE!!!!

Game. Set. Match.

[midnightpulp]

Because its not extraordinary. Players have 20/10 in MOST NBA games. You can give Duncan credit for the sheer amount of these games, but he still didnt have as many as Malone or Shaq so who cares?

Where are Duncan's BIG GAMES? Maybe Im spoiled but I wanna see lots of 35 points and 12 rebound games from the dominant big men considered "greatest ever":


Duncan just barely beats out Dirk (who was never a great rebounder). You can really see where the "cutoff" is after David Robinson.

So yeah..i give Duncan a big "meh".

And Spurs fans are spoiled and like to see great defense. Something we never got with Chuck leaving John Paxson and letting Otis Thorpe out rebound him in a key playoff game.

Here's another "great game" from Chuck:

Phoenix wins the first two games of the series on the road. Houston steals game 3 in Phoenix. Game 4 is essentially the series at this point. And what does Chuck, at his peak, do?

7-21, 4 TOs, 1 assist.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199405150PHO.html

And then in the next game, the round mound of lazy defense gets dominated on the boards by Otis Thorpe:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199405170HOU.html

Spurs fans are indeed spoiled. We like to see our superstars step up in pressure situations, like this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305150LAL.html

Or this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305230DAL.html

Or this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804190SAS.html

Was Duncan "meh" in the Final game?

[FYM]

OP is retarded tbh

[midnightpulp]

Another game from Chuck that I'm sure spoiled DSF:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199306200PHO.html

7-18 and losing John Paxson on defense in the biggest game of his career. But he sure rebounded his misses well with those 7 offensive rebounds.

[da_suns_fan]

Another game from Chuck that I'm sure spoiled DSF:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199306200PHO.html

7-18 and losing John Paxson on defense in the biggest game of his career. But he sure rebounded his misses well with those 7 offensive rebounds.

I blame Dan Majerle's air ball with under a minute to go much more than Barkley's steal attempt, tbh.

Deflection wont hide Tim Duncan's deficiencies!

[midnightpulp]

I blame Dan Majerle's air ball with under a minute to go much more than Barkley's steal attempt, tbh.

Deflection wont hide Tim Duncan's deficiencies!

What deficiencies? He stepped up when it mattered most. Something that could never be said for Chuck.

Deflection won't hide Chuck's terrible defense and penchant for choking.

But feel free to enjoy those 35 point regular season games, which as a Suns fan, you've probably witnessed more at your expense than the other way around. Hell, how many of those "big games" have Spurs' players dished out on your team over the past decade?

[Stabula]

Duncan sucks

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan sucks

:lol

[whitemamba]

trampstamp...

[Knoxxx]

Duncan is still the best player on the court at age 37. What more do you need to see?

Prime Duncan handed Shaq and Malone their asses. What more do need to see?

[ambchang]

I didnt say "throw out playoff games". ALL of my queries include both playoffs and regular season (since they should both count when looking at how many great games a player had).

btw - Duncan played in a lot more playoff games than both Barkley and Garnett.

Deal with it.

Hmm ... tells you something about Duncan's success

Duncan is boring and successful.

Deal with it.

[Cry Havoc]

:lmao
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http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/op-is-a-faggot-240x180.jpg

[Koolaid_Man]

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