Legislators spar over downsizing prisons

[coyotes_geek]

TDCJ has a problem with prison undercrowding. Who knew? I sure didn't. It's absolutely ridiculous that there's a fight about closing prisons we don't need when there are so many other areas such as education, roads and water that legitimately need some extra bucks thrown their way.


Legislators Spar Over Downsizing Prisons/nXXDx/ (http://www.statesman.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/legislators-spar-over-downsizing-prisons/nXXDx/)

By Mike Ward

American-Statesman Staff

A group of fiscally conservative Republican House members is pushing to keep open two prisons the state might not need, and they want to buy another one for which there are no convicts.

Leading the charge against the plan are Democratic legislators who are loudly complaining about pork-barrel spending.

At issue is whether the state, with 12,000 empty prison beds and a prisoner population that’s continuing to decline, should close lockups in Mineral Wells and Dallas to save money. And, separately, should the state buy an 1,100-bed lockup it encouraged Jones County to build before the prison population began declining?

Supporters of those moves cite extenuating circumstances: jobs, economic development, contingency planning, state contractual obligations and not wishing to micromanage a state agency.

Critics say none of that trumps the bottom line for taxpayers.

“This is the ultimate earmark, no different than what people rebelled about with Washington,” said state Sen. John Whitmire, D-Houston, who, as chairman of the Senate Criminal Justice Committee, is the leading opponent. “It just makes no sense.”

House and Senate budget negotiators will have to wrestle with the prison closures, recommended by the Senate but not by the House. And on Friday, the House is scheduled to vote on a supplemental budget bill that would spend $19.5 million to buy the Jones County lockup located north of Abilene.

State Rep. Susan King, an Abilene Republican who represents Jones County, has pushed for the purchase. “This was an agreement the state made, and it was broken,” she said at a recent House hearing. “It’s unprecedented. … Now we’re looking at a county that has made no payments on this building; they’re in financial distress over it.”

Lawmakers have faced intense lobbying from Jones County officials who, with private interests, built the lockup with the expectation that the state would send prisoners there. But the state canceled the contract in 2010 before the first prisoner arrived. It has sat unused ever since.

House Corrections Committee Chairman Tan Parker, R-Flower Mound, and other House supporters of the purchase note that the state would be getting a new $35 million lockup for roughly half price. And Parker suggested the remote lockup could be mothballed “until such time as the state might need it, at some point in the future.”

Even in mothballs, Whitmire and other critics say, the lockup would cost taxpayers. They point to a deactivated six-story Veterans Administration hospital in Marlin, southeast of Waco, that was given to the prison system in 2007. It has since cost more than $1.5 million to maintain — without any plan to ever reopen it.

State Rep. Sylvester Turner, D-Houston, a member of the budget-writing House Appropriations Committee who oversaw the criminal justice budget provisions, concedes the prison system has too many beds and could justify the closures. As for the Jones County lockup, he said, “It’s not needed. … Will we end up buying it? There is support for that, yes.”

In its version of the budget, the Senate directed prison officials to close the Mineral Wells Pre-Parole Transfer Facility and the Dawson State Jail in Dallas. That would close 3,500 prison beds, at a time when state prisons are running short of convicts thanks to treatment and rehabilitation programs that were beefed up starting six years ago.

“Why keep open a bunch of beds that we don’t need? That’s a waste of money,” said Whitmire, an architect of the reform programs.

While some House members and senators — all Republicans — who represent Mineral Wells and surrounding rural areas argue that that lockup shouldn’t be targeted because it is the major employer in the area, others, including Parker, say the Legislature shouldn’t specify which prisons to close — a decision they say should be left to the professionals who run the prison system.

“That’s who should make those decisions,” Parker said.

Texas has closed only one state prison in its history, the Central Unit in the Houston suburb of Sugar Land — after the Legislature mandated it. And even with the support of local officials who wanted to redevelop the land, the actual shutdown took four years to accomplish.

Echoing sentiments of other rural legislators who are concerned about the proposed closure of Mineral Wells is state Sen. Craig Estes, R-Wichita Falls: “Closing it would devastate Mineral Wells. I still have tire tracks on my back side when I tried to stop (the closure) in the Senate, but I still hold out hope that the House will keep it open.”

Other legislators are just as firm that the closures should take place. “I haven’t changed my mind. I don’t think we need it,” said state Sen. Royce West, D-Dallas, whose district includes the Dawson lockup.

For Parker and other House leaders, the issue isn’t about spending money on prisons the state doesn’t need right now, but on doing the right thing. Even if the state has excess prison beds, they argue, the best decision might be a share-the-pain approach: instead of shutting down entire older units, perhaps mothball portions of prisons in various parts of the state.

Whitmire has a different view.

“The people in the House who are for buying a prison we don’t need, and are for keeping two existing prisons open that we don’t need, are the same tea party, fiscal conservatives who campaigned for less government and cutting wasteful spending,” he said. “Everyone wants to cut government waste, but it’s very hard to shut down anything.”

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It's pretty amazing how much the prison industrial complex controls this country.

[coyotes_geek]

Certainly true. That's why i was shocked to read that Texas has more prison space than we need.

[boutons_deux]

It's pretty amazing how much the prison industrial complex controls this country.

wrong

UCA, United Corporations of America don't control the country, only have to buy whore politicians. Those whores are VERY CHEAP, providing a huge ROI of $10Bs for a few $Ms invested.

[TeyshaBlue]

Not a great choice available. Close prisons. Kill the local economy. Result? A shift of funds from prisons to unemployment, foodstamps and welfare for the citizens who lose their jobs.

[TeyshaBlue]

I guess that would work in Tx interest, shifting state debt to the federal assistance programs.

[boutons_deux]

Not a great choice available. Close prisons. Kill the local economy. Result? A shift of funds from prisons to unemployment, foodstamps and welfare for the citizens who lose their jobs.

(sadistic) prison staff are already on the taxpayers' payroll.

If you want to reduce taxpayers payroll, the real expense target is the $30K/year PER PRISONER.

Release the 100Ks prisoners, local/state/federal, in jail for small quantities of mj.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Certainly true. That's why i was shocked to read that Texas has more prison space than we need.

The fact that this majority of this country thinks marijuana should be legal yet people in congress are pushing for harsher marijuana laws (Obama shoulders plenty of blame here, he's been a huge marijuana nazi) is equally outrageous.

I still blame the American people here since most don't even have the slightest clue how backwards our drug laws are and how unnecessarily high the incarceration rate is. We have 25% of the world's incarcerated population, only 7% of which are violent offenders. If Americans actually cared about informing themselves, private prison lobbyists wouldn't be so effective.

[TeyshaBlue]

In the context of this particular story, it appears that releasing the 100k's of prisoners is not an option although I agree. The drug laws are absurd.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Not a great choice available. Close prisons. Kill the local economy. Result? A shift of funds from prisons to unemployment, foodstamps and welfare for the citizens who lose their jobs.

Or they could take the money and use it on what the OP suggested which creates plenty of jobs and also addresses the 3rd world infrastructure America is approaching.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hell, lets cut a deal with California to take some of theirs..they are overcrowded

[boutons_deux]

Hell, lets cut a deal with California to take some of theirs..they are overcrowded

but you hate paying taxes to pay for imported CA prisoners.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I don't think Teysha was making this argument by any means, but the argument I hate the most relating to prisons/drugs is, "But ma! What happens to all those prison guards who's jobs rely on us unnecessarily incarcerating millions for minor drug offenses!"

How bout they have to go compete with the rest of us in the "Free market!" Republican marijuana nazis pretend to love so much and stop suckling at the government teet?

[coyotes_geek]

Not a great choice available. Close prisons. Kill the local economy. Result? A shift of funds from prisons to unemployment, foodstamps and welfare for the citizens who lose their jobs.

You very well could be right, but I'd still prefer to take that risk over the option of keeping facilities we don't need open solely for the purpose of employing people. Especially when that money could be spent doing something truly beneficial.

That being said, if it's feasible to close facilities in the larger metropolitan areas where laid off prison workers would have an easier time finding another job, I think that should be considered.


The fact that this majority of this country thinks marijuana should be legal yet people in congress are pushing for harsher marijuana laws (Obama shoulders plenty of blame here, he's been a huge marijuana nazi) is equally outrageous.

I still blame the American people here since most don't even have the slightest clue how backwards our drug laws are and how unnecessarily high the incarceration rate is. We have 25% of the world's incarcerated population, only 7% of which are violent offenders. If Americans actually cared about informing themselves, private prison lobbyists wouldn't be so effective.

As far as prisons go, I don't even think you have to take the discussion about marijuana all the way to legalization. At a bare minimum, we should at least be able to agree it's a waste of money to lock up stoners. I'd prefer to clear that hurdle and then have the discussion about whether or not MJ should be legal, or just a minor offense punishable by a fine + community service.

[elbamba]

If they need to fill the jails then they should contract with another state to take some of their prisoners. They should certainly not be buying additional jails if they have so much empty space. There are plenty of private prison companies that could come in and purchase the Jones County facility. Let them contract with the Marshall service and then the state can invest our taxpayer dollars in things that we actually need.

[CosmicCowboy]

but you hate paying taxes to pay for imported CA prisoners.

profit center you dumb bitch.

[elbamba]

I don't think Teysha was making this argument by any means, but the argument I hate the most relating to prisons/drugs is, "But ma! What happens to all those prison guards who's jobs rely on us unnecessarily incarcerating millions for minor drug offenses!"

How bout they have to go compete with the rest of us in the "Free market!" Republican marijuana nazis pretend to love so much and stop suckling at the government teet?

I am sure its just as simple as a goolge search but do you know or do you have any material on the actual numbers of being serving time for maijuana possession? When I worked in criminal defense, the only people that ever got time where the actual dealers. That was my observation at least, certainly not saying that this was the norm. Most people that had possession usually paid a fine or spent a week in the local municipal jail.

[coyotes_geek]

Hell, lets cut a deal with California to take some of theirs..they are overcrowded

True they're overcrowded, but they're also broke.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

As far as prisons go, I don't even think you have to take the discussion about marijuana all the way to legalization. At a bare minimum, we should at least be able to agree it's a waste of money to lock up stoners. I'd prefer to clear that hurdle and then have the discussion about whether or not MJ should be legal, or just a minor offense punishable by a fine + community service.
In this case, clearing that hurdle implies going as far as legalization. If we stopped locking up stoners and the prison industrial complex stopped making billions off contract incarcerations, they'd no longer be pouring millions into the lobby that keeps it illegal. The only reason it is still illegal is because the PIC makes so much off incarcerating marijuana users.

[boutons_deux]

profit center you dumb bitch.

taxpayers pay the PIC for out-sourced prisons, you dumb bitch. The PICs profits are taxpayers' funds, you dumb bitch.

[coyotes_geek]

In this case, clearing that hurdle implies going as far as legalization. If we stopped locking up stoners and the prison industrial complex stopped making billions off contract incarcerations, they'd no longer be pouring millions into the lobby that keeps it illegal. The only reason it is still illegal is because the PIC makes so much off incarcerating marijuana users.

Agree that I think you end up there, but for the time being I think there's still plenty of voters who aren't comfortable going all the way to legalization. IMO you've got to break this in to a two-step process. Well, at least in this state you do.

[TeyshaBlue]

Or they could take the money and use it on what the OP suggested which creates plenty of jobs and also addresses the 3rd world infrastructure America is approaching.

A fair point. However, I would think the locations of most of those jobs do not conflate. Unless one of those infrastructure projects is planned within 60 miles of the newly unemployed, you basically have a non-starter.

[TeyshaBlue]

Still, DOK, your larger point remains and I agree despite my nit-picking caveats.:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

You very well could be right, but I'd still prefer to take that risk over the option of keeping facilities we don't need open solely for the purpose of employing people.

You can bet your ass the local constituency drives the Rep's votes on this tho.

[TeyshaBlue]

I am sure its just as simple as a goolge search but do you know or do you have any material on the actual numbers of being serving time for maijuana possession? When I worked in criminal defense, the only people that ever got time where the actual dealers. That was my observation at least, certainly not saying that this was the norm. Most people that had possession usually paid a fine or spent a week in the local municipal jail.

Yeah, but if you've got a dude on probation for a simple crime, then toss a marijuana charge on top of that: instant prison time.

[coyotes_geek]

You can bet your ass the local constituency drives the Rep's votes on this tho.

No doubt. Every politician wants to protect their turf. They're not really any different from us average citizens in that regards. Everybody is in favor of somebody else having to give up some their goodies.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I am sure its just as simple as a goolge search but do you know or do you have any material on the actual numbers of being serving time for maijuana possession? When I worked in criminal defense, the only people that ever got time where the actual dealers. That was my observation at least, certainly not saying that this was the norm. Most people that had possession usually paid a fine or spent a week in the local municipal jail.
As far as objective reports this is what I could find:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/persons-arrested/persons-arrested
It says marijuana accounts for roughly half the drug related arrests in this country. Doesn't say anything about how much time is being served and I'm too lazy to keep looking, but the taxpayer spends billions on processing/court time/etc. just off all the marijuana arrests alone.


A fair point. However, I would think the locations of most of those jobs do not conflate. Unless one of those infrastructure projects is planned within 60 miles of the newly unemployed, you basically have a non-starter.
If the newly unemployed are incapable of finding a private sector job and need taxpayer-funded projects for employment, they can go to where those projects are. AFAIC, they're no different than people who live off the tax payer via government assistance and don't work. The tax payer shouldn't be bending over backwards to accomodate them.

[boutons_deux]

"they can go to where those projects are."

and who pays the relocation expenses? and what if the unemployed is married and the spouse has a job to lose by relocation? your theoretical bullshit doesn't fly in practice

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

"they can go to where those projects are."

and who pays the relocation expenses? and what if the unemployed is married and the spouse has a job to lose by relocation? your theoretical bullshit doesn't fly in practice
idk why you expect me to have sympathy for them. For years, they've been employed as prison guards this country didn't need and thereby got to avoid having to compete with the other unskilled knuckle draggers in the marketplace. They should be happy they were able to get away with living off the taxpayer for so long, and they should have considered the possibility of what would happen when their unneeded gubbamint job got taken away from them.

:lol boutons
:lol constantly feeding the stereotype that liberals want to absolve people of any personal responsibility

[coyotes_geek]

I'm guessing what boutons would like is for the prisons to remain open, except instead of being used as a prison it's a place where anybody can show up and be paid a "liveable wage" to just hang out.

[boutons_deux]

idk why you expect me to have sympathy for them. For years, they've been employed as prison guards this country didn't need and thereby got to avoid having to compete with the other unskilled knuckle draggers in the marketplace. They should be happy they were able to get away with living off the taxpayer for so long, and they should have considered the possibility of what would happen when their unneeded gubbamint job got taken away from them.

:lol boutons
:lol constantly feeding the stereotype that liberals want to absolve people of any personal responsibility

bullshit

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm guessing what boutons would like is for the prisons to remain open, except instead of being used as a prison it's a place where anybody can show up and be paid a "liveable wage" to just hang out.

Sounds alot like my office, tbh.

[elbamba]

As far as objective reports this is what I could find:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/persons-arrested/persons-arrested
It says marijuana accounts for roughly half the drug related arrests in this country. Doesn't say anything about how much time is being served and I'm too lazy to keep looking, but the taxpayer spends billions on processing/court time/etc. just off all the marijuana arrests alone.


Good link. I searched but could not find if the drug abuse violations included driving under the influence of drugs. I agree though, unless there is another crime being committed I think they waste too many resources that could be used in other places for arrests. If there is not a public safety concern, I would want law enforcement to leave an individual alone.

[elbamba]

Sounds alot like my office, tbh.

Souds like me since the playoffs started. I have been having a tough time staying motivated to get work done. Even stranger is that I spend more time in the Spurs forum but I only ever post in here.

[TeyshaBlue]

:lol :tu

[RandomGuy]

TDCJ has a problem with prison undercrowding. Who knew? I sure didn't. It's absolutely ridiculous that there's a fight about closing prisons we don't need when there are so many other areas such as education, roads and water that legitimately need some extra bucks thrown their way.

Tea Party Legislator Dictionary:

Wasteful Spending: Government spending in someone else’s district.
Economic Stimulus: Government spending in my district.


---------------------------------

Buncha hypocritical fuckwads who get into power and realize the governments actually *do* things that are worthwhile.

I loved the way the Republicans in congress are whining about the FAA's furloughs of air traffic controllers. "You didn't tell us you were going to do this" GMAFB, they have been sayign what would happen for months, and now Republitards in congress are shocked, shocked, that cutting government services might have (gasp) real world effects.

http://seattletimes.com/html/traveloutdoors/2020854130_faafurloughsxml.html

[RandomGuy]

In its version of the budget, the Senate directed prison officials to close the Mineral Wells Pre-Parole Transfer Facility and the Dawson State Jail in Dallas. That would close 3,500 prison beds, at a time when state prisons are running short of convicts thanks to treatment and rehabilitation programs that were beefed up starting six years ago.

Being "soft" on crime is fiscally responsible. Who knew?

[Winehole23]

A plea to Texas budget conferees: Close two prison units, don't buy empty cells we don't need
This is a plea to the ten conference committee members on the budget from both chambers of the Texas Legislature, who for the record are:


House: Pitts, Crownover, Otto, S. Turner, Zerwas
Senate: Williams, Duncan, Hinojosa, Nelson, Whitmire

Let's talk for a moment about prisons. First the House and Senate have both agreed in the base budget to fund 5% employee raises for correctional workers. Please don't start slashing at those wage hikes to pay for prison units you don't need (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2013/04/texas-house-would-open-new-prison-unit.html). Including the extra money to bail out Jones County (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2010/12/jones-county-pays-for-empty-jail-as.html), the House decision to buy a prison (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2013/04/budget-conferees-gather-with-opposing.html) instead of closing two will cost Texans an extra $116.8 million in incarceration costs over the biennium for those line items compared to the Senate budget. Close the privately-run Dawson State Jail (http://www.texasobserver.org/death-at-dawson-why-is-texass-worst-state-jail-still-open/) and Mineral Wells pre-parole units as suggested by Senate-side budget writers and tell the folks in Jones County they're on their own, just like so many other counties that built speculative prisons and jails (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2011/03/private-prison-bubble-bursting-empty.html) they now can't fill.

Also, know up front that you have likely underfunded prison healthcare by around $50 million or so and will need to come back and fund it with a supplemental on the back end like the Lege did this year. TDCJ/UTMB, et al., have told the Lege what it will cost to provide care to prisoners but even the more generous Senate version of the budget is $55 million shy of the requested amount. Why not just budget what the health care actually costs instead of paying tens of millions on the back end as though it's some big surprise or "emergency?" Incarcerating felons is a core function of state government. Budget what it costs.

Members on the House side, given that your chamber suggested paying for employee raises as well as three extra prison units, you could agree to prison closures, increase prison health care funding to the requested amount, and still call the result a "savings." That would be the truly "fiscal conservative" approach: Reduce spending where feasible but pay your bills in full.

To Senators, each of you has been around long enough to see TDCJ require "supplemental" funds for health care at the beginning of each session year after year. Why intentionally underfund that line item and perpetuate the cycle?

With the two chambers in disagreement on prison closures, it's your decision. Texas made history and received national attention for closing the Central Unit. Grits urges you to follow Chairman Whitmire's lead, double down on that success and close two more. The state doesn't need them and the money is better spent on employee raises, prisoner healthcare, and probation programming.

MORE: A couple of different sites are calling for people to contact conference committee members telling them to close two prisons and don't buy another one, see here (http://members.boardhost.com/texasjustice/msg/1367348078.html) and here (https://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/6220/c/1359/p/dia/action3/common/public/index.sjs?action_KEY=13792).

AND MORE: From the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, "Texas shouldn't keep spending on unneeded prisons (http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/04/29/4812128/texas-shouldnt-keep-spending-on.html)."http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2013/04/a-plea-to-texas-budget-conferees-close.html?spref=fb

[coyotes_geek]

Every Legislator Dictionary:

Wasteful Spending: Government spending in someone else’s district.
Economic Stimulus: Government spending in my district.


FIFY.

[coyotes_geek]

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2013/04/a-plea-to-texas-budget-conferees-close.html?spref=fb

:tu

Good read. Thanks for finding.


Close the privately-run Dawson State Jail and Mineral Wells pre-parole units as suggested by Senate-side budget writers and tell the folks in Jones County they're on their own, just like so many other counties that built speculative prisons and jails they now can't fill.

Confessing that I'm normally not a regular follower of correctional news, I was originally okay with the idea of buying the Jones County unit. This changed my mind though. I wasn't aware that build spec prisons had become a common practice. It certainly doesn't need to be encouraged.

[RandomGuy]

FIFY.

Granted. "EVERY".

Funny the way the radicals, when suddenly confronted by real problems and not ready-made propaganda points, reach the conclusion that their own ideology is stupid in practice.

Not that you could get any of them to admit that.