George Hill being George Hill

[Buddy Holly]

In the first round against Atlanta.

20 ppg at home.

7.5 ppg on the road.

That was always the one thing that infuriated me about hill. He always played better at home than on the road.

[freetiago]

Indiana is an above average point guard away from being a true contender
suddenly David West is getting wide open shots off pick and pops
Hibbert gets layups and dunks
and the shooters would get better looks from 3

with Hill they get a guy with average vision who can only really get his and like you said hes inconsistent
his game is suited to being a 6th man
i always laugh when i see people say both teams won the trade
Spurs traderaped Indiana hard
they got a true SF which is what the Spurs played Hill as in the small bench they used and they got rid of a point guard with true point guard skills who was about to get payed

[baseline bum]

Yeah, that makes me die laughing when analysts talk about the trade being a wash. I mean Hill was awesome offense off the bench, but his pick and roll defense was horrible and he was an extreme defensive liability against all except ballhogging iso players like Bryant.

[Sean Cagney]

Give me LEONARD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK! HE HAS a way higher ceiling IMO as well! I would do that trade over and over again.

[jesterbobman]

I've said this in a bunch of different threads already, so I don't know why I'm saying it here, but...

The trade was a win for both teams. At the time, Indiana had Paul George and Danny Granger as Skilled, long wings. Kawhi was not going to play major minutes there. In addition, the Kawhi Leonard we see on the Spurs is not the player who was drafted. The body shape and work ethic were there, and those haven't changed, but Kawhi is much more capable as an offensive weapon because his shooting has changed from liability to asset. That changed might have happened in Indy as well, but it's not certain.

George Hill is also, a good PG. He's not explosive offensively, and he's never going to be an allstar. But he provides tremendous value as a medium usage, efficient PG. By WS48, He's at .177 This year. By PER, 16.59. The Talkingpractice guys(Adjusted +/- Group of statheads) Have him as 27th in the league.

No individual advanced stat is perfect, but the logical conclusion is that George Hill is an above average PG. For this, they gave up the 15th and 42nd picks(And Lorbek) in the draft, spots that usually yield Journeymen. That is the essence of the trade from their perspective. That is a win. There were also not a lot of Guard options in that draft. Nolan Smith might've been next up, and he's not exactly an NBA level Guard.

The Spurs were interested in trading for Kawhi. If he was gone, they probably hang onto Hill(Might've also targeted Jonas, but they were interested in trading if their guy was there, not a pick in general.) Kawhi was probably worth the 5th/6th pick at the time(combo of pre draft rankings from DX/ESPN & stat focused evaluation(Glowing)) and it is easy to see him having more value to the Spurs than Hill. We're all pretty comfortable with it being a good trade from our perspective.

It's bad that Bird won Exec of the year for it, as Buford's was better. But it was still a good deal, when you realise what options they faced.

[will_spurs]

Not saying it wasn't a good deal for both parties, but Hill's struggles on the road was really an issue in SA, and keeps being an issue for the Pacers. Of course if Hill was playing for Miami or OKC...

[exstatic]

I've said this in a bunch of different threads already, so I don't know why I'm saying it here, but...

The trade was a win for both teams. At the time, Indiana had Paul George and Danny Granger as Skilled, long wings. Kawhi was not going to play major minutes there. In addition, the Kawhi Leonard we see on the Spurs is not the player who was drafted. The body shape and work ethic were there, and those haven't changed, but Kawhi is much more capable as an offensive weapon because his shooting has changed from liability to asset. That changed might have happened in Indy as well, but it's not certain.

George Hill is also, a good PG. He's not explosive offensively, and he's never going to be an allstar. But he provides tremendous value as a medium usage, efficient PG. By WS48, He's at .177 This year. By PER, 16.59. The Talkingpractice guys(Adjusted +/- Group of statheads) Have him as 27th in the league.

No individual advanced stat is perfect, but the logical conclusion is that George Hill is an above average PG. For this, they gave up the 15th and 42nd picks(And Lorbek) in the draft, spots that usually yield Journeymen. That is the essence of the trade from their perspective. That is a win. There were also not a lot of Guard options in that draft. Nolan Smith might've been next up, and he's not exactly an NBA level Guard.

The Spurs were interested in trading for Kawhi. If he was gone, they probably hang onto Hill(Might've also targeted Jonas, but they were interested in trading if their guy was there, not a pick in general.) Kawhi was probably worth the 5th/6th pick at the time(combo of pre draft rankings from DX/ESPN & stat focused evaluation(Glowing)) and it is easy to see him having more value to the Spurs than Hill. We're all pretty comfortable with it being a good trade from our perspective.

It's bad that Bird won Exec of the year for it, as Buford's was better. But it was still a good deal, when you realise what options they faced.

Those advanced stats you quoted don't make Hill an above average PG, they make him an above average undersized SG. Just like when he was here, he isn't a PG. He lacks the vision for the position.

[Mr. Body]

I've said this in a bunch of different threads already, so I don't know why I'm saying it here, but...

The trade was a win for both teams. At the time, Indiana had Paul George and Danny Granger as Skilled, long wings. Kawhi was not going to play major minutes there. In addition, the Kawhi Leonard we see on the Spurs is not the player who was drafted. The body shape and work ethic were there, and those haven't changed, but Kawhi is much more capable as an offensive weapon because his shooting has changed from liability to asset. That changed might have happened in Indy as well, but it's not certain.

George Hill is also, a good PG. He's not explosive offensively, and he's never going to be an allstar. But he provides tremendous value as a medium usage, efficient PG. By WS48, He's at .177 This year. By PER, 16.59. The Talkingpractice guys(Adjusted +/- Group of statheads) Have him as 27th in the league.

No individual advanced stat is perfect, but the logical conclusion is that George Hill is an above average PG. For this, they gave up the 15th and 42nd picks(And Lorbek) in the draft, spots that usually yield Journeymen. That is the essence of the trade from their perspective. That is a win. There were also not a lot of Guard options in that draft. Nolan Smith might've been next up, and he's not exactly an NBA level Guard.

The Spurs were interested in trading for Kawhi. If he was gone, they probably hang onto Hill(Might've also targeted Jonas, but they were interested in trading if their guy was there, not a pick in general.) Kawhi was probably worth the 5th/6th pick at the time(combo of pre draft rankings from DX/ESPN & stat focused evaluation(Glowing)) and it is easy to see him having more value to the Spurs than Hill. We're all pretty comfortable with it being a good trade from our perspective.

It's bad that Bird won Exec of the year for it, as Buford's was better. But it was still a good deal, when you realise what options they faced.

Win.

Simply put, the Pacers didn't need a SF at the pick in any fashion. Getting a productive SG/combo PG in George Hill there was a great deal for them. Who cares if he's not a superb starter? Many picks there bomb out. That Kawhi has turned out better and better doesn't make their trade necessarily worse.

[Obstructed_View]

Rather have Cory Joseph than George Hill tbh.

[Chinook]

Rather have Cory Joseph than George Hill tbh.

Yeah. Pretty much RC was like, "Hey Bird, Hill a really awesome player. You won't find a player like him in the middle of the draft. Give up three assets for him." Then as soon as Bird did, RC was like, "Now we can just get another Hill late in the first round just like we got the last one."

[100%duncan]

Rather have Cory Joseph than George Hill tbh.

Agree. I think George has hit his ceiling imho and it's not that good compared to what was expected of him, while CoJo can improve alot more and has tons of upside. I'm excited on how will he perfrom against legit guards in the 2nd round.

[Harry Callahan]

Hill was also heading into his contract year in 2011. He likely would have signed somewhere else. The Spurs had 4 years of Leonard vs. 1 year of Hill at the time in all likelihood.

[Gagnrath]

If Hill where he is has a ceiling of this then thats fine, he's a starting mid tier PG on a borderline contending team. I would hope that he gets a little bit more comfortable on the road so his averages are closer but not every team can have an all star pointguard and he's a good defender for that position. His jumpshot and driving ability are fine though he does lack some passing creativity.

[DesignatedT]

He's definitely not worth the 45 million they payed him but he's still a nice player. Like someone said before, he's a great 6 man.

[Mugen]

George got us Kawhi. Bless his penis pic tweeting heart, tbh.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Give me LEONARD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK! HE HAS a way higher ceiling IMO as well! I would do that trade over and over again.

And twice on Sunday!

[freetiago]

Pacers drafted Leonard because the Spurs wanted him and they wanted Hill
not because they were planning on drafting him and the trade magically appeared
Hill isnt worth what hes payed and the Pacers could have easily gotten a solid free agent PG in that class like Lowry/Dragic/Vasquez for cheaper and kept the pick and gotten a guy like Faried

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, if you want to look at the trade, the best way to do it is the Spurs got Leonard, Bertans and Lorbek for the value of one season with George, because they weren't going to pay him to stay.

[Johnny RIngo]

Yeah, if you want to look at the trade, the best way to do it is the Spurs got Leonard, Bertans and Lorbek for the value of one season with George, because they weren't going to pay him to stay.

Really don't need to mention Lorbek as if he's some valuable asset. He won't ever play in the NBA imo.

[Obstructed_View]

Really don't need to mention Lorbek as if he's some valuable asset. He won't ever play in the NBA imo.

Maybe not, but he was part of the package that they got for basically nothing.

[SpursBills]

Yeah, if you want to look at the trade, the best way to do it is the Spurs got Leonard, Bertans and Lorbek for the value of one season with George, because they weren't going to pay him to stay.

exactly - from the spurs perspective, they got leonard, bertans, and lorbek for one season of george hill
from the pacers perspective, they got an above average starting pg for a redundant sf prospect (with a terrible jump shot), a potentially wasted 2nd round pick, and a euro prospect they'd never bring over

both teams got more than they were giving up; just because the spurs benefited more doesn't mean that both teams didn't win in the trade

[cjw]

Don't know how many times I've said this here, but paying George Hill $8mm a year while giving up Leonard who is on a cheap contract for four years (plus two options on guys in Europe, which likely will never pan out) is a clear Spurs win. The only reason people call it a "wash" is because there are so many other trades that look exponentially worse (Gerald Wallace for the pick that turned into Lillard being one - and then overpaying Wallace instead of cutting their losses!)

[Darius Bieber]

Don't see it mentioned yet, but I believe George Hill was also happy about the trade since he's now playing for his hometown team. Always great to live a childhood dream IMO.

So it's a win for the players too:

- Hill gets to play for Indiana
- Leonard gets to be coached by one of the greats, and can now learn some things from T-Mac.

[baseline bum]

Don't see it mentioned yet, but I believe George Hill was also happy about the trade since he's now playing for his hometown team. Always great to live a childhood dream IMO.

So it's a win for the players too:

- Hill gets to play for Indiana
- Leonard gets to be coached by one of the greats, and can now learn some things from T-Mac.

Hope TMac doesn't teach Kawhi how to leave a good team in order to pad his stats.

[Obstructed_View]

Hope TMac doesn't teach Kawhi how to leave a good team in order to pad his stats.

This should be interesting. Do tell.

[baseline bum]

This should be interesting. Do tell.

He and Carter would have been an amazing core in Toronto, but McGrady wanted his shots. The second he got to Orlando and got his shots he also stopped playing defense despite showing signs of being a truly elite defensive player in his Toronto days. McGrady was happy to be Iverson rather than Pippen.

[TJastal]

Pacers could have certainly used Leonard this season with Granger out.

[pgardn]

Hill is not a Pg.

Does not have the handles, the ability to get his team spaced properly or the vision. He does not open up shots for other players by directing traffic, nor does he move properly off the ball to do the same. He does not understand the proper angles to use the high or low pick and roll effectively... It is a litany of attributes that are lacking.

[therealtruth]

He and Carter would have been an amazing core in Toronto, but McGrady wanted his shots. The second he got to Orlando and got his shots he also stopped playing defense despite showing signs of being a truly elite defensive player in his Toronto days. McGrady was happy to be Iverson rather than Pippen.

And Carter was never a Jordan. Just never had the desire.

[freetiago]

Carter and Tmac is a terrible core to build off
2 high volume shooters with the same skills at the same position

ideally you want guys who play different positions
Spurs model is probably best where you get an elite big elite PG and elite 2/3

[Obstructed_View]

He and Carter would have been an amazing core in Toronto, but McGrady wanted his shots. The second he got to Orlando and got his shots he also stopped playing defense despite showing signs of being a truly elite defensive player in his Toronto days. McGrady was happy to be Iverson rather than Pippen.

Yeah, I can see that side. It's debatable whether or not that was a better team than Orlando, though. We know they'd have probably won that game 7 that Vince decided not to prepare for in order to attend graduation if TMac had been there. :)

In his defense, he did want playing time. He wasn't going to get it behind Doug Christie and Vince Carter. He was 21, had sat on the bench his rookie season, then watched his rookie cousin take what he thought was his spot in the lineup.

T-Mac was the most talented player I ever saw live. There's no doubt he skated by on his ability and never played to his potential. With the benefit of hindsight, we know neither of those guys was Pippen, let alone Jordan.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, I can see that side. It's debatable whether or not that was a better team than Orlando, though. We know they'd have probably won that game 7 that Vince decided not to prepare for in order to attend graduation if TMac had been there. :)

In his defense, he did want playing time. He wasn't going to get it behind Doug Christie and Vince Carter. He was 21, had sat on the bench his rookie season, then watched his rookie cousin take what he thought was his spot in the lineup.

T-Mac was the most talented player I ever saw live. There's no doubt he skated by on his ability and never played to his potential. With the benefit of hindsight, we know neither of those guys was Pippen, let alone Jordan.

McGrady was awesome playing the 3, so he wasn't going to be stuck behind Carter and Christie. TMac had long since won the starting job by the time he left, and Toronto mostly ran Christie at point by then. I think McGrady could have been every bit as good as Pippen. He was a pretty fierce shotblocker at the position in his Toronto days and his agility was off the charts. Good rebounder too at SF. I could understand him leaving if Toronto wasn't offering a max contract or if he was pissed at them giving Camby away for a 35 year-old Oakley, but everything I heard at the time was about him wanting shots and to be the #1 guy on his team. If he's advising Kawhi I hope he's saying not to make a dumb mistake at age 20 by hunting personal glory.

[CaptainLate]

Indiana is an above average point guard away from being a true contender
suddenly David West is getting wide open shots off pick and pops
Hibbert gets layups and dunks
and the shooters would get better looks from 3

with Hill they get a guy with average vision who can only really get his and like you said hes inconsistent
his game is suited to being a 6th man
i always laugh when i see people say both teams won the trade
Spurs traderaped Indiana hard
they got a true SF which is what the Spurs played Hill as in the small bench they used and they got rid of a point guard with true point guard skills who was about to get payed

Didn't that Hill trade get us the rights to Davis Bertans and Lorbek?

[Brazil]

Good thread tbh, 21 pts