U.S. Income Inequality Now Higher Than Mexico's

[Homeland Security]

Gini coefficients, 2011:

USA 0.477
Mexico 0.472

Anticipated right-wing counterarguments:
1) I found different data that shows the U.S. is really slightly more equal than Mexico, not slightly less!
2) This is totally irrelevant. Poor people deserve it.
3) When I criticized Mexico in the past for its inequality, that was totally different.

[TeyshaBlue]

4) Some animals are more unequal than others.

[DarrinS]

So?


The tails on our income "bell curve" are further apart, but our ENTIRE bell curve is to the right of Mexico's, i.e we are (across the board) more wealthy than Mexico.

[Th'Pusher]

5) it's the result of technology, globalization and education not policy.

[Homeland Security]

So?


The tails on our income "bell curve" are further apart, but our ENTIRE bell curve is to the right of Mexico's, i.e we are (across the board) more wealthy than Mexico.

I know you're going to try to wiggle out of this, but the usual meaning of "entire bell curve" in the context you used is the region in between -3 sigma and +3 sigma, which would mean you are claiming that the income distribution curve for the United States is shifted 6 standard deviations to the right of that of Mexico. This is nonsense; the U.S. is shifted only 1 standard deviation to the right of Mexico. Mexico's median is right about the 16th percentile for the U.S.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So?


The tails on our income "bell curve" are further apart, but our ENTIRE bell curve is to the right of Mexico's, i.e we are (across the board) more wealthy than Mexico.
So the US as a whole is wealthier than Mexico. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[CosmicCowboy]

Also a lower class that actually works industriously instead of living on government handouts.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I think that falls under #2

[boutons_deux]

Also a lower class that actually works industriously instead of living on government handouts.

yep, CC is a globalist who expects US workers to work for sweat shop, subsistence wages so they can compete with Mexicans, which is essentially what corporate globalism was/is all about, plus no tariffs (paid to the hated govt).

[Homeland Security]

6) This just proves why we need to get rid of all the illegals.
7) Not surprising we're like Mexico, just look around at all the Mexicans
8) It's Barack Obama's fault because Democrats need more poor people to vote for them.
9) This just shows what happens when we turn our back on God, take prayer out of schools, and let gays marry

[Homeland Security]

10) Back when black people were slaves, they had owners to take care of them. See what happens when we make them fend for themselves?

[Homeland Security]

Also a lower class that actually works industriously instead of living on government handouts.
Gee, if their lower class is so much more industrious than ours, maybe we should let more of them immigr...

BZZZT!!! RIGHT-WING LOGIC ALARM!!! DOES NOT COMPUTE!!!!

[CosmicCowboy]

My point is that the so called "safety net" competes with entry level unskilled jobs. No unskilled person just immediately jumps into a good well paying job. They start out in entry level positions and as they learn skills in their field their compensation and responsibility increases and they finally end up with that "good" job.. In the US the "safety net" competes directly with entry level jobs and and it demotivates people to accept entry level positions. Why work when you can stay home and get a check in the mail and have your Lone Star card refilled every month doing nothing? Some in here make fun of the kids in Mexico selling chiclets on the street but they learn at an early age that if you don't work you don't eat.

[Homeland Security]

11) This just proves we need to cut welfare.

[CosmicCowboy]

11) This just proves we need to cut welfare.

I'm not saying that but it's clear what we are doing isn't working.We now have 4th generation welfare queens and it has become a lifestyle.

[Homeland Security]

I'm not saying that but it's clear what we are doing isn't working.We now have 4th generation welfare queens and it has become a lifestyle.
12) It's not a fair comparison. Mexico doesn't have welfare queens like the U.S. does.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The safety net competes with entry level jobs because of how ridiculously low the minimum wage is.

[CosmicCowboy]

The safety net competes with entry level jobs because of how ridiculously low the minimum wage is.

So whats the right number?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So whats the right number?
$15.00 an hour

[CosmicCowboy]

$15.00 an hour

For totally unskilled bottom of the barrel shit labor. That's all that works for minimum wage now.

Wow.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

For totally unskilled bottom of the barrel shit labor. That's all that works for minimum wage now.

Wow.
If minimum wage had actually moved according to worker productivity in the last 40 years it would be over $20.00 an hour. $15.00 is still a joke but at least it's a living wage.

And plenty of people who have worked at Wal-Mart for years either make minimum wage or less than a dollar an hour more. What would you suggest they do?

[ElNono]

If minimum wage had actually moved according to worker productivity in the last 40 years it would be over $20.00 an hour. $15.00 is still a joke but at least it's a living wage.

And plenty of people who have worked at Wal-Mart for years either make minimum wage or less than a dollar an hour more. What would you suggest they do?

Not only that, it's also a matter of cost of living... bottom of the barrel rarely owns a home, and rent adjusts with inflation pretty much every year... salaries, not so much.

[CosmicCowboy]

If minimum wage had actually moved according to worker productivity in the last 40 years it would be over $20.00 an hour. $15.00 is still a joke but at least it's a living wage.

And plenty of people who have worked at Wal-Mart for years either make minimum wage or less than a dollar an hour more. What would you suggest they do?

If they are working for minimum wage for Wal Mart for years you have to admit they aren't the brightest bulb on the string and are getting paid what they are worth and need to adjust their life style accordingly. Those companies are always looking for bright motivated people to integrate into their management programs and move into good jobs. It is my understanding that HEB (as an example) has managers making solid 6 figures that started out bagging groceries.

[CosmicCowboy]

Not only that, it's also a matter of cost of living... bottom of the barrel rarely owns a home, and rent adjusts with inflation pretty much every year... salaries, not so much.

Cost of living? Raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and see who gets hurt worst. Welcome to $10 Big Macs.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If they are working for minimum wage for Wal Mart for years you have to admit they aren't the brightest bulb on the string and are getting paid what they are worth and adjust their life style accordingly.
There's no way to adjust your lifestyle to $7.25 an hour.

I'd also fully agree they aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, which is why I think they need to be protected by a livable minimum wage. That way they're actually being productive and have incentive to not live off the government teet.


Those companies are always looking for bright motivated people to integrate into their management programs and move into good jobs. It is my understanding that HEB (as an example) has managers making solid 6 figures that started out bagging groceries.
Walmart's entire business model is being able to pay its employees a below living wage while getting subsidized by the government via food stamps and medicaid for their grunt workers. I'm sure a few anecdotal examples of rags to riches stories at HEB are nice but I put more weight on the stat that 25% of America makes less than $10.00 an hour.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Cost of living? Raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and see who gets hurt worst. Welcome to $10 Big Macs.
Australia seems to be doing fine with a $15 an hour minimum wage.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

CC don't you start people at $25,000 a year as is? $15.00 an hour isn't much higher than that so business owners like you who pay their employees a decent wage won't have to change their business model much at all. The only businesses that would get hurt by it are places like Wal-Mart that deserve to get hurt for treating workers like shit.

[boutons_deux]

What Walmart doesn't pay its employees in wages and benefits get topped with taxpayers $Bs as 80% of walmart employees used Medicaid, plus other kinds of assistance like SNAP, etc.

iow, taxpayers are paying the Walmart employees living wages so Walmart doesn't have to, allowing Walmart to pocket those unpaid $Bs of wages as profit. aka, taxpayer wealth transfer to Walmart and similar shitty employers

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

What Walmart doesn't pay its employees in wages and benefits get topped with taxpayers $Bs as 80% of walmart employees used Medicaid, plus other kinds of assistance like SNAP, etc.

iow, taxpayers are paying the Walmart employees living wages so Walmart doesn't have to, allowing Walmart to pocket those unpaid $Bs of wages as profit. aka, taxpayer wealth transfer to Walmart and similar shitty employers
Agreed. The billions we give to Walmart employees every year is just as much corporate welfare as it is the welfare Republicans bitch about. The taxpayer subsidizes walmart's shit wages.

[DarrinS]

I know you're going to try to wiggle out of this, but the usual meaning of "entire bell curve" in the context you used is the region in between -3 sigma and +3 sigma, which would mean you are claiming that the income distribution curve for the United States is shifted 6 standard deviations to the right of that of Mexico. This is nonsense; the U.S. is shifted only 1 standard deviation to the right of Mexico. Mexico's median is right about the 16th percentile for the U.S.

No, that's not what I meant at all. I'm sure they overlap

[DarrinS]

So the US as a whole is wealthier than Mexico. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Point being, the Gini index would be low for a country where everyone is poor

[coyotes_geek]

Walmart is the devil. They've got 2.2 million employees. For just $9B a year they could give the lowest earning two-thirds of their workforce a $3/hr raise and still be clearing over $100B a year in profits. Even if they didn't want to sacrifice anything in profits, they could cover that by raising their prices by about 2.5%.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Walmart is the devil. They've got 2.2 million employees. For just $9B a year they could give the lowest earning two-thirds of their workforce a $3/hr raise and still be clearing over $100B a year in profits. Even if they didn't want to sacrifice anything in profits, they could cover that by raising their prices by about 2.5%.
Well their most recent net income was $17B, so that $9B would put quite a dent in their profits. Raising prices would also hurt their business since people shop there for low prices. Like I said, their entire business model depends on being able to pay shit wages.

[boutons_deux]

"a study said" the major component in the huge increase US in inequality since the mid-70s, was cutting capital gains from 28% in 1980 down to 15% now.

This also had the effect of executive compensation more in stock rather than salary, which had the effect of executives managing their company to increase stock prices for their own benefit, cooking the books every quarter, firing employees to increase profits, to pump their own stock holdings.

[coyotes_geek]

Well their most recent net income was $17B, so that $9B would put quite a dent in their profits. Raising prices would also hurt their business since people shop there for low prices. Like I said, their entire business model depends on being able to pay shit wages.

Shit. My bad. Used gross instead of net. Still, Walmart sucks.

[boutons_deux]

Another effect of low taxes is that it discourages (long term) investment in favor of short term profiitabity and inflated stock prices. iow, pocket the low-taxed profits rather than, with higher taxes, invest profits to avoid the high taxes.

[spursncowboys]

CC don't you start people at $25,000 a year as is? $15.00 an hour isn't much higher than that so business owners like you who pay their employees a decent wage won't have to change their business model much at all. The only businesses that would get hurt by it are places like Wal-Mart that deserve to get hurt for treating workers like shit.
Yeah and say goodbye to low inflation on food products, except for what the govt subsidizes.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Yeah and say goodbye to low inflation on food products, except for what the govt subsidizes.
The government props food prices up by setting price floors for retarded farmers too stupid to make a living on their own.

Republicans for whatever reason think it's the other way around.

[spursncowboys]

:toast and that is what a college degree gives you

[DMC]

Enjoying that time off from Kool eh?

[DMC]

Oh, and I don't care as long as I am not one of "them".

[ElNono]

Cost of living? Raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and see who gets hurt worst. Welcome to $10 Big Macs.

they're already getting hurt... everything adjusts for inflation except low wages... lol @ poor people regularly eating out...

[101A]

$15.00 an hour

My son is an 18 year old, living at home, night stocker at a local grocery store. He is not worth $15/hr.

IF that is a $30K/year job, where should skilled labor salaries begin? College educated? Professional? How would inflation be controlled?

[101A]

CC don't you start people at $25,000 a year as is? $15.00 an hour isn't much higher than that so business owners like you who pay their employees a decent wage won't have to change their business model much at all. The only businesses that would get hurt by it are places like Wal-Mart that deserve to get hurt for treating workers like shit.

My employees WOULD NOT work for minimum wage. If they didn't get a boost, they would go take my son's night stocker job; less stress, same pay. I'd HAVE to raise compensation significantly (they start right around 30K)

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

My son is an 18 year old, living at home, night stocker at a local grocery store. He is not worth $15/hr.
If we go by how much right wing assholes think people are "worth" then slavery would be legal.


IF that is a $30K/year job, where should skilled labor salaries begin? College educated? Professional? How would inflation be controlled?
Those salaries should begin at the level they are in every other modern country.

As for my response to your other post, you'd raise their salaries and pass most of the cost onto your customers. Yeah, maybe you'd take home less money as the business owner. I'd be lying if I said I give a shit about that.

[CosmicCowboy]

My employees WOULD NOT work for minimum wage. If they didn't get a boost, they would go take my son's night stocker job; less stress, same pay. I'd HAVE to raise compensation significantly (they start right around 30K)

X2

[CosmicCowboy]

If we go by how much right wing assholes think people are "worth" then slavery would be legal.


Those salaries should begin at the level they are in every other modern country.

As for my response to your other post, you'd raise their salaries and pass most of the cost onto your customers. Yeah, maybe you'd take home less money as the business owner. I'd be lying if I said I give a shit about that.

Ultimately, everyone is the customer, dumbass. Make more, everything costs more.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Ultimately, everyone is the customer, dumbass. Make more, everything costs more.
Then lets legalize slavery to lower costs!

[Homeland Security]

Enjoying that time off from Kool eh?
If we were really the same person this username would have been banned too, as would Trill Clinton, CuckingFunt, lefty, and AaronY my other trolls.

[101A]

As for my response to your other post, you'd raise their salaries and pass most of the cost onto your customers. Yeah, maybe you'd take home less money as the business owner. I'd be lying if I said I give a shit about that.

Why the fuck would I want to be a business owner if my employees make more than I do? I'll take the semi-skilled low stress job that pays nearly 6 figures, thank you.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Why the fuck would I want to be a business owner if my employees make more than I do? I'll take the semi-skilled low stress job that pays nearly 6 figures, thank you.
I don't understand how a $15.00 minimum wage would result in low stress jobs that pay nearly 6 figures. Can you show me the empirical evidence behind that?

I completely understand that $15.00 an hour is a lot more than someone like your son would be "worth" in a completely open market. That's not the point since it's not nearly that simple. There is only room for so many doctors, lawyers, business owners, bankers, etc. in the economy. The average worker is always going to have a low skill mundane job with relatively simple labor and low stress. The only way to have a sustained middle class is if those workers are able to make a decent wage where they have purchasing power and don't live paycheck to paycheck. That's always going to be the case regardless of the bullshit Bill Clinton said about how Americans don't need the manufacturing jobs being shipped to Mexico because they're low skill.

[101A]

I don't understand how a $15.00 minimum wage would result in low stress jobs that pay nearly 6 figures. Can you show me the empirical evidence behind that?



If an entry level job that currently pays 15K all of a sudden pays 30K - everything else takes care of itself.. entry employees at my company making 30K jump to, I don't know, to 45 or 50? Again, its a cost/benefit metric for EVERYONE, how much is it worth to have a higher stress/more difficult job vs. taking an easier route, but only making a little less. Again YOU"RE setting the bar at the easiest, least valuable job being worth 30K - my employees at that price currently, work a job that is twice as expensive as that...the natural conclusion is that those jobs would pay 60 grand.

You're right, btw, Manufacturing jobs were the secret; they created (manufactured) wealth with their labor - actually take something less valuable and turn it to something MORE valuable; a lot easier to find living wages when that kind of metric....now "wealth" is created on paper on Wal Street; not there there. I am not the free trade Nazi I used to be; protectionism used judiciously, IMO would alleviate some problems....Germany has a nice model...

[DMC]

If we were really the same person this username would have been banned too, as would Trill Clinton, CuckingFunt, lefty, and AaronY my other trolls.

No. Timvp stated that you always log on with each account through a different proxy. So.... no.

[sickdsm]

Finding a cheap employee is always more expensive than paying more for a quality employee. I realize that one cannot live on some of these wages. But ask anyone that's tried to hire unskilled physical labor before and most will agree that most of the applicants aren't worth it even if they were working for free.


I do think for a lot of people the military or a semi driver is an occupation thats mostly readily available and can pay relatively decent.

[Rick Santorum]

lol raising the minimum wage does nothing, it's a subjective number. if you raise the cost of production then the final goods just cost more and youre right back in the same boat. that's not going to create any wealth..the numbers are just subjective. 15 an hour is just a number, if a loaf of bread cost 5-7 bucks then we'd be right back in the same boat.

[Rick Santorum]

cost push inflation 101

[baseline bum]

lol raising the minimum wage does nothing, it's a subjective number. if you raise the cost of production then the final goods just cost more and youre right back in the same boat. that's not going to create any wealth..the numbers are just subjective. 15 an hour is just a number, if a loaf of bread cost 5-7 bucks then we'd be right back in the same boat.

You taking economic advice from Little Gabriel again?

[Rick Santorum]

if it were as simple as just raising the minimum wage then we'd all be rich. do you have any sort of idea what kind of consequences that would have for an economy?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Then you look at the CPI before and after minimum wage increases. Interesting hypothesis that doesn't bear out empirically.

[boutons_deux]

if it were as simple as just raising the minimum wage then we'd all be rich. do you have any sort of idea what kind of consequences that would have for an economy?

$15/hour = $30K/year which above the median income, which not rich, but would be a living income with no SNAP, etc.

If BigHealthCare would quit obstructing a govt/public health insurance option for all, $30K/year person would have health insurance, too.

U.S. Median Annual Wage Falls To $26,364 As Pessimism Reaches 10-Year High
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/us-incomes-falling-as-optimism-reaches-10-year-low_n_1022118.html

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Then you look at the CPI before and after minimum wage increases. Interesting hypothesis that doesn't bear out empirically.

People who believe in supply side economics have never been a fan of empirical evidence.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

if it were as simple as just raising the minimum wage then we'd all be rich. do you have any sort of idea what kind of consequences that would have for an economy?

I look at Australia and don't see what consequences a $15.00 minimum wage would have. Tell me, what consequences did Alex Jones say raising the minimum wage would have?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You taking economic advice from Little Gabriel again?

I'm no longer using det troll if that's what you're thinking, tbh.

[Rick Santorum]

If elected president in 2016, I promise to raise the minimum wage to 1 MILLION dollars per hour!

[DMX7]

You've got to love how the most hysterically Jesus-Worshiping Christian nation in the world is also the first to tell the poor to go pull themselves up by their own boot straps and go fuck off and die if they can't.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You've got to love how the most hysterically Jesus-Worshiping Christian nation in the world is also the first to tell the poor to go pull themselves up by their own boot straps and go fuck off and die if they can't.

Well they use Jesus to convince poor people that the low minimum wage is to there benefit, tbh. Religion has been used by the rich to suppress/enslave/indoctrinate/etc. the poor since the beginning of civilization.

[baseline bum]

Well they use Jesus to convince poor people that the low minimum wage is to there benefit, tbh. Religion has been used by the rich to suppress/enslave/indoctrinate/etc. the poor since the beginning of civilization.

The meek shall inherit the Earth*






































































































* you also gotta believe you survive your own death, the holy trinity, 3 gods are really 1 but they're really 3 but seriously the same 1, talking snake, etc

[CosmicCowboy]

You've got to love how the most hysterically Jesus-Worshiping Christian nation in the world is also the first to tell the poor to go pull themselves up by their own boot straps and go fuck off and die if they can't.

How exactly did the USA tell them to go fuck themselves? There is a HUGE fucking "safety net". You have to accept the fact that some of these insane street people voluntarily choose that path.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How exactly did the USA tell them to go fuck themselves? There is a HUGE fucking "safety net". You have to accept the fact that some of these insane street people voluntarily choose that path.

You're right. He should have just said "the most hysterically Jesus-Worshiping Christian political party.'

[DMX7]

How exactly did the USA tell them to go fuck themselves? There is a HUGE fucking "safety net". You have to accept the fact that some of these insane street people voluntarily choose that path.

There is a safety net because the Democrats have preserved it from complete destruction. Republicans can't stand it though.

[boutons_deux]

How exactly did the USA tell them to go fuck themselves? There is a HUGE fucking "safety net". You have to accept the fact that some of these insane street people voluntarily choose that path.

80% of, eg, Walmart employees, aka people who choose that "shitty path", aka working poor, still qualify for Medicaid and SNAP GFY, richie sociopath.

4M homes have been stolen by your buddies in the criminal, predatory financial sector.

[boutons_deux]

One Walmart's Low Wages Could Cost Taxpayers $900,000 Per Year, House Dems Find

Walmart wages are so low that many of its workers rely on food stamps and other government aid programs to fulfill their basic needs, a reality that could cost taxpayers as much as $900,000 at just one Walmart Supercenter in Wisconsin

uses Medicaid data released in Wisconsin to piece together the annual cost to taxpayers for providing a host of social safety net programs, including food stamps and publicly subsidized health care, to workers at one Supercenter in the state.

According to the report, Walmart had more workers enrolled in the state’s public health care program in the last quarter of last year than any other employer, with 3,216 people enrolled. When the dependents of those workers were factored in, the number of enrollees came to 9,207.

"When low wages leave Walmart workers unable to afford the necessities of life, taxpayers pick up the tab,"

After accounting for the total number of Walmart stores and employees across the state and the per-person costs of BadgerCare, as the state’s health care program is known, the report's authors estimated that the cost of publicly funded health care comes to $251,706 per year for a 300-employee Supercenter.

The authors then added up the projected costs of other public-assistance programs available to families on BadgerCare, such as reduced-price school meals, Section 8 housing assistance, the earned income tax credit and energy assistance. Assuming all those workers avail themselves of those additional programs -- granted, an unlikely scenario -- the report extrapolates that the final tab would top $900,000.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/walmart-taxpayers-house-report_n_3365814.html?view=print&comm_ref=false

Walmart's response in the article is of course LYING AND IRRELEVANT? Walmart offers "opportunties"? :lol

Taxpayers pay the wages, benefits which are not paid by Walmart who pockets the savings/profits of those taxpayer wages and benefits. aka, wealth distribution upwards.

[dbestpro]

Walmart pays low and sucks to be an employee. They also survive off of 3% profit margin. Not much room to make a difference for their employees unless they pass the expense on to the customers.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:crythat poor Walton family:cry

[boutons_deux]

3%?

here it says it was pushed down to 4.6%, to a piddly $15.7B

"That helped push revenues up by 6% during 2011, to $447 billion, but it hurt Wal-Mart's bottom line -- profits declined by 4.6% during the year, to $15.7 billion."

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/snapshots/2255.html

So if Walmart paid its store drones a living wage and benefits instead of taxpayers paying it, it's business model would suck. Walmart is a taxpayer-subsidized TAKER.

And Walmart somehow finds enough profit to payoff capitalists:

http://stock.walmart.com/stock-information/dividends-stock-splits

[Wild Cobra]

More Walmart Bashing I see.

[LnGrrrR]

4) Some animals are more unequal than others.

Two legs baaaaaad!