What determines your GOAT all time list...

[King Nupe]

I asked this question because everyone seems to have their 1-10 ranking based on different criteria.


# of NBA Championships/NCAA/Euro/Olympic Championships - Team awards
# of MVP's- Media awards
# of Finals MVP- Best player for 1 series award
# of DPOY- Based on league
# of PPG,APG, RPG- This is determined by position, role on team, and other players on team
# of Allstar games- Fan/Coach voted
# of NBA Records/Accomlishments ( FEATS)
# Skill level


After you've evaluated it, please list your top ten, and then explained which 3 criteria over took the others. For example:

If you have

Russell- 11 rings, 5 MVP's, Finals MVP didn't exist, but assume 9, 2 NCAA Champion, NUPE (:toast)
Kareem- 6 Rings, 6 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP, 3 NCAA Championships,
MJ- 6 Rings, 5 MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, 1 NCAA Championships, 1 Gold Medal


Then its safe to say, that you value Rings, MVP's and Finals MVP's the most. All 3 of these players have more accomplishments but I want you to Rank them based on your top 3 criteria and lets see how your top ten looks. There is no right or wrong answer, I just want to gauge peoples perspectives.

[spurraider21]

whichever criteria most satisfies your preconceived notions, tbh. for example, if you already thought bill russell was GOAT, you'd say "rings and nothing else"

[King Nupe]

whichever criteria most satisfies your preconceived notions, tbh. for example, if you already thought bill russell was GOAT, you'd say "rings and nothing else"


Thats my point. Russel did have a lot of championships but only averaged 15 PPG for his career. But I want to see how everybody perceives GOAT.

[spurraider21]

pretty sure the smell test has to count for something too, tbh. not EVERYTHING can be quantified (yet). there's no stat for leadership, understanding of roles, situations, and the main defensive metrics we use for guys before the 2000's is steals and blocks, which as we know are NOT the end all be all defensive indicators. bruce never racked up steals, for example, but was an elite perimeter defender.

[King Nupe]

pretty sure the smell test has to count for something too, tbh. not EVERYTHING can be quantified (yet). there's no stat for leadership, understanding of roles, situations, and the main defensive metrics we use for guys before the 2000's is steals and blocks, which as we know are NOT the end all be all defensive indicators. bruce never racked up steals, for example, but was an elite perimeter defender.


Was bruce an elite defender? http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mahn87SPbo1rf6er7o1_500.jpghttp://smg.photobucket.com/user/Nicko85/media/bowenkick.jpg.htmlhttp://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/10/15/47/2152958/3/628x471.jpg


And of course we all remember the GOAT KICK on Sczerbiak

[Thebesteva]

I don't consider Bill Russell as the greatest player of all time because he played in a weak era. Nobody is winning 11 championships as the elite player in todays competitive sports. He played during the late 50's, was prolly one of few big men at the time.

As for the top 10, I think it's simply the elite players with the most rings. Jordan had 6, Kobe-Magic had 5, Ducan with 4, etc.

[King Nupe]

I don't consider Bill Russell as the greatest player of all time because he played in a weak era. Nobody is winning 11 championships as the elite player in todays competitive sports. He played during the late 50's, was prolly one of few big men at the time.

As for the top 10, I think it's simply the elite players with the most rings. Jordan had 6, Kobe-Magic had 5, Ducan with 4, etc.


Russell played against
Wilt,
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
?Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond


All of them would be the BEST CENTER TODAY....LOL @ WEAK ERA.....

[Thebesteva]

Russell played against
Wilt,
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
?Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond


All of them would be the BEST CENTER TODAY....LOL @ WEAK ERA.....

He played during the 50's man....for gods sakes. His last championship was during Woodstock 1969.

[King Nupe]

He played during the 50's man....for gods sakes. His last championship was during Woodstock 1969.


I get that. But 30 years from now, Kids will be saying "....Jordan played in a weak era, he played in the 90's... that's Last century Man!!!!!"

[ElNono]

personally, other criteria I consider includes:
- snitching on a teammate drops you about 5 places on the list
- missing the playoffs in your prime when you played over 80%+ of the season drops you another 5-10 spots

[midnightpulp]

Russell played against
Wilt,
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
?Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond


All of them would be the BEST CENTER TODAY....LOL @ WEAK ERA.....

Russell never played against Kareem, Lanier, and Artis Gilmore.

[z0sa]

It is pretty much consensus that Bill Russell is the hardest player to rank in NBA history.

[Richie]

I think longevity is a difference maker when players have similar accolades, as opposed to peak.

A great example is Timmy vs Shaq. Both have 4 titles, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP vs 2, so accolades are similar. No doubt Shaq had a better peak, possibly one of the best peaks of all time, but if I was starting a team I'd take Timmy for his work ethic, his will to win and lack of ego.

If Shaq had Timmys work ethic and personality, he'd probably rival Russell for rings.

[lefty]

You cant piock the GOAT on just 1 criteria

It's a mix of of all criterias

Maybe assign coefficients to each criteria, and the best score wins

[spurraider21]

As for the top 10, I think it's simply the elite players with the most rings. Jordan had 6, Kobe-Magic had 5, Ducan with 4, etc.

i honestly believe that each successive ring almost becomes less and less important to a point where it becomes overkill. for years we knew LeBron was a great player, and his ring just validated it. it didn't make him better. i don't think lebron suddenly became a more skilled player one day after holding the trophy. i think hakeem > shaq but shaq has 4 rings to dream's 2. even if jordan never won his 6th ring, the fact that he was able to dominate the league, retire, come back, and dominate the league again, sold it to me. all sorts of factors.

i already know how great Tim Duncan is. whether or not he wins a 5th ring this year wouldn't downgrade him tbh. one of the main reasons i want him to get a 5th ring (asides from the obvious, you always want for favorite team/player to win, ever year) is so i can stop hearing that fucking 5>4 bs argument my laker fan friends always spit at me when push comes to shove.

[King Nupe]

i honestly believe that each successive ring almost becomes less and less important to a point where it becomes overkill. for years we knew LeBron was a great player, and his ring just validated it. it didn't make him better. i don't think lebron suddenly became a more skilled player one day after holding the trophy. i think hakeem > shaq but shaq has 4 rings to dream's 2. even if jordan never won his 6th ring, the fact that he was able to dominate the league, retire, come back, and dominate the league again, sold it to me. all sorts of factors.

i already know how great Tim Duncan is. whether or not he wins a 5th ring this year wouldn't downgrade him tbh. one of the main reasons i want him to get a 5th ring (asides from the obvious, you always want for favorite team/player to win, ever year) is so i can stop hearing that fucking 5>4 bs argument my laker fan friends always spit at me when push comes to shove.



Ok, but Duncan has 3 MVP's, but they are media awards. Not saying he didn't deserve them, but seriously man. They isn't any STATISTICAL way to why the Media votes for the MVP award.

[spurraider21]

Ok, but Duncan has 3 MVP's, but they are media awards. Not saying he didn't deserve them, but seriously man. They isn't any STATISTICAL way to why the Media votes for the MVP award.

not once did i mention MVP in my post, but FYI duncan has 2 mvp's. 3 finals mvp's though. its ok, i've heard kobefans argue that his all-star mvp's mean jack shit

[LnGrrrR]

All of the above, plus "gut" and "homeriffic".

Top 3:
Jordan
Bird
Magic

(Lebron will probably finish 2 by the time he's done. Shaq is up there too for me, as is Kobe, Kareem, Duncan, Russell etc etc other usual suspects)

[midnightpulp]

Ok, but Duncan has 3 MVP's, but they are media awards. Not saying he didn't deserve them, but seriously man. They isn't any STATISTICAL way to why the Media votes for the MVP award.

Yeah there is. Media usually awards the Finals MVP to the player who posted the highest PPG. In actuality, Duncan should have 4 Finals MVPs, Magic should have 4 (Worthy got the award based on his Game 7 performance in the '88 Finals, which was indeed amazing, but Magic was the better player for the series), etc.

[DAF86]

I think longevity is a difference maker when players have similar accolades, as opposed to peak.

A great example is Timmy vs Shaq. Both have 4 titles, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP vs 2, so accolades are similar. No doubt Shaq had a better peak, possibly one of the best peaks of all time, but if I was starting a team I'd take Timmy for his work ethic, his will to win and lack of ego.

If Shaq had Timmys work ethic and personality, he'd probably rival Russell for rings.

I'm the complete opposite, when players tend to have similar resumes I go with peaks to determine who's better. That's why:

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

In my all-time list.

[mercos]

I rank players based on a combination of championships, individual stats/awards, longevity and a basic eye test on how talented they were. Take the Shaq/Duncan debate others are using in this thread. As others have said, they have similar career and team achievements. I give Duncan the edge because I think he was more skilled, and he was a far superior defender. Everyone says Shaq was more dominant, but that is just another way of saying he bulldozed over people and dunked a lot. He got away with a lot of offensive fouls in his career.

As for Bill Russell, I rank him very highly, but I do deduct some points for playing in a weaker era on a team loaded with Hall of Famers. It is still ridiculously impressive that his teams won 8 championships in a row. To stay motivated each year like that is impressive.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the problem i have with bill russel, what he did against them weak white guys and undersized guys and his role on his team, who to say none of the elite bigs in the modern game couldnt do what he did that era?

[DAF86]

The thing with Russell is that no matter how weak you think his era was or how stacked his team was, he still was considered the best player of a team that won 11 championships, that has to count for something.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol preset criteria is a terrible way to rank players, tbh..

Logic is the best way to rank them, obviously:lol..

Both longevity and peak play should be factored, but I agree with Daf that peak performance is more important, tbh..

[hater]

this is the best way IMO. This is for NBA GOAT only IMO. Bringing up the international game just causes problems:
1) Rings
2) MVPs + Finals MVPs
3) Career PER

Formula: Rings + MVPs + PER

MJ - 6, 11, 27.91 = 44.91
Russell - 11, 14, 18.87 = 43.87
Kareem - 6, 8, 24.58 = 38.58

Duncan - 4, 5, 24.73 = 33.73
Lebron - 1, 5, 27.65 = 33.65
Kobe - 5, 3, 23.41 = 31.41

[King Nupe]

this is the best way IMO. This is for NBA GOAT only IMO. Bringing up the international game just causes problems:
1) Rings
2) MVPs + Finals MVPs
3) Career PER

Formula: Rings + MVPs + PER

MJ - 6, 11, 27.91 = 44.91
Russell - 11, 14, 18.87 = 43.87
Kareem - 6, 8, 24.58 = 38.58

Duncan - 4, 5, 24.73 = 33.73
Lebron - 1, 5, 27.65 = 33.65
Kobe - 5, 3, 23.41 = 31.41



Alltime Records/Feats don't matter?

[hater]

Alltime Records/Feats don't matter?

not at all

[hater]

Hater's patented formula left everyone speechless :lmao

[Kidd K]

OP, you forgot "defense" (self explanitory, and not just DPOY awards)

"clutch factor" (aka FG% in clutch situations, not just total of shots made in ASSLOADS of attempts at a terrible FG%)

Consistency of winning (career win% and both high and low career best/worst seasons)

Peak stats and prime stats (especially when compared to other greats at same position)

Playoff stats (especially compared to their own season stats)

Level of competition

And intangibles (aka leadership, how much they make their teammates better, how much or how little scrutiny they get by the media for things they do right or wrong in game, etc)


And Hater. . .that's cool, but you made PER massively dominate rings and MVPs. Those barely have any valuation compared to PER. You'd have to adjust the rings and MVPs to mean a little more than just 1, or adjust PER down to mean a bit less. Plus it throws out so many other important factors :\

But oddly enough, it does kinda make most guys fall into a good order pretty well.

[LkrFan]

I get that. But 30 years from now, Kids will be saying "....Jordan played in a weak era, he played in the 90's... that's Last century Man!!!!!"
Comparatively speaking, the '80s >>> '90s. In the '80s, I think the only expansion team was Miami ('88?). The '90s saw the league get watered down with multiple expansion teams that MJ's Bulls feasted on in route to their rangs - and their gaudy 72-10 record (simply put, they don't win that many in the '80s - with that team). In the '80s, he got his shit pushed in on the regular per par tbqh. If he won even once in the '80s I would have been impressed.

That's why KAJ has a legit claim as GOAT. Won a ring in the '70s, 5 in the '80s, plus his 3 NCAA rangs, more points than anyone including MJ (scoring is what MJ is really known for), more all star games in NBA history, NCAA and NBA changed many rules to level the playing field because of him, etc etc. However, the media hates him and loves MJ - despite the fact he was just as big an asshole - and his gambling ways got his dad whacked.

You can legitimately argue that KAJ is the true GOAT IMO.

[midnightpulp]

Comparatively speaking, the '80s >>> '90s. In the '80s, I think the only expansion team was Miami ('88?). The '90s saw the league get watered down with multiple expansion teams that MJ's Bulls feasted on in route to their rangs - and their gaudy 72-10 record (simply put, they don't win that many in the '80s - with that team). In the '80s, he got his shit pushed in on the regular per par tbqh. If he won even once in the '80s I would have been impressed.

That's why KAJ has a legit claim as GOAT. Won a ring in the '70s, 5 in the '80s, plus his 3 NCAA rangs, more points than anyone including MJ (scoring is what MJ is really known for), more all star games in NBA history, NCAA and NBA changed many rules to level the playing field because of him, etc etc. However, the media hates him and loves MJ - despite the fact he was just as big an asshole - and his gambling ways got his dad whacked.

You can legitimately argue that KAJ is the true GOAT IMO.

Enjoying the Western Conference Finals?

[AaronY]

Lol, Kareem missed the playoffs twice in his prime..GOAT my ass..

[AaronY]

As for Magic:

I don't think Magic's game would even translate well to this current laker team. He couldn't really shoot that well, and there is no way he could guard any other point guards. I would pick Nick Van Exel at PG before magic, because his game would translate better.

[LkrFan]

Enjoying the Western Conference Finals?

I would, if I could see the games. The frustrating part is AFN is showing the games live. But due to work, I can't see any of them. SMH

[LkrFan]

Lol, Kareem missed the playoffs twice in his prime..GOAT my ass..
Stupid logic. Since Duncan never missed the playoffs, are you saying Duncan is better than KAJ? KAJ (6) > Duncan (4) too. I don't think anyone (even the sane Spur Fans) would say that shit. In his prime, he would DOMINATE Timothy Duncan. His career achievements dwarf Duncan's. Simply put, there is nothing Duncan has done that KAJ hasn't done better as a big man. Nothing. Oh, and missing playoffs in his prime had nothing to do with KAJ's production as a player. So that's a silly argument in and of itself. At least he never won a Bronze Medal - which is worst. -100 points son.


As for Magic:

I don't think Magic's game would even translate well to this current laker team. He couldn't really shoot that well, and there is no way he could guard any other point guards. I would pick Nick Van Exel at PG before magic, because his game would translate better.
Anybody that would take NVE over Magic in any era is either stupid, dumb, retarded, pendejo, etc, per par, tbqh. -200 points for that shit stained comment son.

Don't let your Laker hatred cloud your apparently limited judgement. :tu

[AaronY]

-Magic can't defend a modern day PG
-Isn't a good shooter
-Needs the ball in his hands
-Doesn't have the pieces to run showtime...




So yes,a case can be made that he is not a better fit than NVE.

[AaronY]

Furthermore,

What would magic be able to do with this Current Laker team? They don't run, so he would be stuck in the half court, where he couldn't shoot that well, and doesn't have Kareem ( A REAL POST PLAYER) to dump it to and get easy buckets without turnovers. Plus, we all know Kobe needs the ball in his hands.

[King Nupe]

Hold, on. Why are my post coming up as Aarony????

[AaronY]

Thats right LkrFan leave..can't take this logic overload..

[King Nupe]

Stupid logic. Since Duncan never missed the playoffs, are you saying Duncan is better than KAJ? KAJ (6) > Duncan (4) too. I don't think anyone (even the sane Spur Fans) would say that shit. In his prime, he would DOMINATE Timothy Duncan. His career achievements dwarf Duncan's. Simply put, there is nothing Duncan has done that KAJ hasn't done better as a big man. Nothing. Oh, and missing playoffs in his prime had nothing to do with KAJ's production as a player. So that's a silly argument in and of itself. At least he never won a Bronze Medal - which is worst. -100 points son.

:tu

Yeah I agree, No one would ever put Duncan in Kareem's league. Heck, Kareem won FMVP at age 37 right?? Kareem played against, Ralph Sampson, Prime Hakeem, Prime Ewing, Prime Parish, Prime Mchale.

Duncan went against Prime Shaq and lost 3 out 4 series. Shaq's the only LEGIT bigman that Duncan has faced in both their primes.

[LkrFan]

Thats right LkrFan (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18824) leave..can't take this logic overload..

:lol - it's 1315 (1:15pm for you non-military types). I didn't "leave" - I'm at work. You expect me to be on ST 24/7? -10 more points son.

PS - all that BS you posted was just that: BS. I don't respond to BS. Bottom line: Magic is the greatest leader this league has ever seen. For you to say he wouldn't fit on this current Laker team...wow. Just wow. SMH

[LkrFan]

Yeah I agree, No one would ever put Duncan in Kareem's league. Heck, Kareem won FMVP at age 37 right?? Kareem played against, Ralph Sampson, Prime Hakeem, Prime Ewing, Prime Parish, Prime Mchale.

Duncan went against Prime Shaq and lost 3 out 4 series. Shaq's the only LEGIT bigman that Duncan has faced in both their primes.
:lol - exactly. I noticed he didn't respond to that post. "KAJ missed the playoffs in his prime" - like that means jackshit. :lol

[midnightpulp]

I would, if I could see the games. The frustrating part is AFN is showing the games live. But due to work, I can't see any of them. SMH

Shame. You're missing the Zach Randolph show. Bullying niggas in the post.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah I agree, No one would ever put Duncan in Kareem's league. Heck, Kareem won FMVP at age 37 right?? Kareem played against, Ralph Sampson, Prime Hakeem, Prime Ewing, Prime Parish, Prime Mchale.

Duncan went against Prime Shaq and lost 3 out 4 series. Shaq's the only LEGIT bigman that Duncan has faced in both their primes.

Duncan is 2-3 vs prime/peak Shaq and pretty much outplayed him every time.

[TDMVPDPOY]

kobe has no business gettin any credit for the lakers 3peat and repeat years shaq/gasol

only credit he should be base on is the abortion years he was leader missin the playoffs and losing to the suns in the first round, and this year atrocious 120m payroll team

[King Nupe]

History


Post Season Meetings
34–18 (LAL)


1982 Western Conference Finals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 4-0


1983 Western Conference Finals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 4-2


1986 Western Conference First Round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 3-0


1988 Western Conference First Round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 3-0


1995 Western Conference Semifinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_NBA_Playoffs)
Spurs won, 4-2


1999 Western Conference Semifinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NBA_Playoffs)
Spurs won, 4–0


2001 Western Conference Finals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 4–0


2002 Western Conference Semifinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 4–1


2003 Western Conference Semifinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NBA_Playoffs)
Spurs won, 4–2


2004 Western Conference Semifinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 4–2


2008 Western Conference Finals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NBA_Playoffs)
Lakers won, 4–1


2013 Western Conference First Round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_NBA_Playoffs)

[King Nupe]

Duncan is 2-3 vs prime/peak Shaq and pretty much outplayed him every time.


Ok, but he's 2-3....and if you say he was outplayed by Duncan, yet the Lakers STILL Won...then that Means Kobe carried Shaq...:toast

[mudyez]

Jordan
Russel
Jabbar
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Wilt
Duncan
Kobe
West

It's always a combination of the mentioned points. Ships and team success build the base (LeBron doesn't make the list until last year), awards show how the player was seen at his time, stats help (Wilt may not make the list otherwise).

But you have to be carefull: Guys like Wilt and Russel were great but it was a different era...GOAT shouldn't be 'Best player ever", or otherwise you have to throw them out and go with Hakeem and Shaq instead because they would own them if they played against each other.

[King Nupe]

Jordan
Russel
Jabbar
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Wilt
Duncan
Kobe
West

It's always a combination of the mentioned points. Ships and team success build the base (LeBron doesn't make the list until last year), awards show how the player was seen at his time, stats help (Wilt may not make the list otherwise).

But you have to be carefull: Guys like Wilt and Russel were great but it was a different era...GOAT shouldn't be 'Best player ever", or otherwise you have to throw them out and go with Hakeem and Shaq instead because they would own them if they played against each other.


:stfu

[midnightpulp]

Ok, but he's 2-3....and if you say he was outplayed by Duncan, yet the Lakers STILL Won...then that Means Kobe carried Shaq...:toast

No. It means Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw were better than Danny Ferry, Terry Porter, and the ghost of Sean Elliott.

Kobe was better in '01 against the Spurs than Shaq was, no arguments there.

[barbacoataco]

It is impossible to make such a list for several reasons.
1. Different eras reward different skill sets, and no one really knows how various players would do in a different era.
2. Secondly, basketball is a team sport and you're trying to compare players from different positions. I mean how can you really compare Shaq against Magic when they played such different roles, but they were both dominant in their own way.
3. Anytime you are comparing players you have take into account "career performance" versus "peak performance." For example, even as a Spurs homer I world say that Shaq was, for a few years, slightly more dominant than Duncan ever was. On the other hand Duncan was able to sustain a much higher level for a longer period and more consistent than Shaq, and was more of a team player. How do you put that together and say one was "better" than the other? And you could point out many examples of players who had a better 2-5 year run as opposed to players with longer more productive careers.
4. Lastly and most important, as an observer you will always give more weight to a player you personally saw play more. Since I've been watching the NBA since about 1982-1983, I naturally (like every sane person) think MJ was the GOAT. But that was the guy I grew up seeing play on WGN and he was basketball to me. An older or younger dude might favor someone else.
Anyway, off the top of my head
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabar
3 Magic Johnson
4, Moses Malone
5. Larry Bird
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Bill Russell
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Tie Shaq/Duncan

My criteria would be in general- Players who win the regular season MVP and go on to win the championship in the same year, are usually the best players.

[DMC]

1. Must not be a faggot rapist chucker
2. Must not have a horde of faggot ass fat be@ner fans who burn cars upon winning or losing a game
3. Must understand the concept of team basketball
4. Must not be a glorified TMac with better help
5. Must be coachable
6. Must not have a lazy eye
7. Cannot be married to a be@ner