Teachers

[TeyshaBlue]

That's not an argument for overcompensation. To distill your point, you claim that teachers are overpaid (compensated). You have yet to make a single, cogent point supporting that. Nothing.

If you had at least a room temperature IQ, you would modify that argument to: "Teachers are adequately compensated." That's at least an arguable point. But then, you would have to admit your earlier position was incorrect. You're much to small to do that.

[RandomGuy]

LnGrrR...

I have always likes you, but you are turning into a royal libtard in front of my eyes. I don't make up numbers that I post, which you seem to imply. Would you at least admit that I do normally link my material? Just because I don't in active conversation all the time when multitasking, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Now...

If I was asked at the time the conversation was active, I would have provided the link the numbers from post 129 came from.

Post #129:
Now. Here is another year of the same type study:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Politics/teachersurvey_zps3d09c932.png (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2010/2010353.pdf)

Link attached to the graphic.

According to this table, what percentage of teachers stay in the profession to the tenth year?

[RandomGuy]

That's not an argument for overcompensation. To distill your point, you claim that teachers are overpaid (compensated). You have yet to make a single, cogent point supporting that. Nothing.

Pages and pages of nothing. (fires up copy/paste motor)

[RandomGuy]

[redacted as unnecessary]

[RandomGuy]

According to the US Department of Education, teachers who leave the profession during their first three years is about 8.5%...

Reading fail. Look again.

[RandomGuy]

So?

Many of us haven't seen a raise for a few years.

I don't know about your state, but in many places, teachers are overpaid for the work required. Teachers have a far better benefits package than most tax payers supporting their salaries. Most government employees unions get over on the government too easily because the government doesn't have the same bottom line businesses have. Need more money? Just siphon more from that tax payers...

I'm sorry, until teachers accept the fact that they are over compensated for their jobs, I have no sympathy for their whining.

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/bs_wave.gif

Prove teachers are over-compensated.

Supporting data, and definitions. Your claim, your burden of proof.

Bullshit has been called. Can you walk the walk, or are you gonna run away from this one?


They make over $100 k and are complaining?


looks[like] you ran away from your statement.


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214754&p=6586853&viewfull=1#post6586853


You are the ignorant one.

I live in Oregon. I have been hearing of the ups and downs of the system for decades.


Prove teachers are over-compensated.

Supporting data, and definitions. Your claim, your burden of proof.
...

EDIT

This is about the fourth time I have tried to get Wild Goober to back his shit up.

No nice. I will just assume he has run away from this. Probably a good call on his part.


LOL...

You guys get so worked up so easy....

So excuse me for calling you guys morons, incompetent, etc... But if the shoe fits...


I went to see what this link said. You wonder why I never believe a word you liars say.
And you call me a troll for calling you guys out on your lies...

[8 or 9 more posts from WC]


btw, you haven't even sniffed making a case for teachers being overcompensated, incompetent or stupid.


Yes I did.

Supply and demand.


Make the case, idiot. 3 words don't quite cut it.


Yes, I know. You are too stupid to understand supply and demand, so I would have to write an informative paper on the topic.

Sorry, not going to waste the effort on a jackass like you.


Dumbass. I've forgotten more about education than you'll ever know. Fuck.
You won't waste the effort because you can't fucking make the case. Admit it coward and stop obfuscating. RG called you on it pages ago. You've yet to even state a premise other than "supply and demand". Idiot. It's not about what the market (this is public education, dumbfuck) will bear.


Make the case for overcompensation.


You fail to accept my viewpoint. Right or wrong, it is my viewpoint that teachers are not underpaid when they don't have a shortage of teachers.

See Supply and Demand.

Again, teachers are stupid if they complain about the wages they get, but don't find a better job or somehow get better wages. maybe the union contracts are holding them down because of the least common denominator worker? How many times have unions rejected merit based salaries for teachers?

Too stupid for more income... Collectively...

people like you are real idiots, when they need a link on the internet, to prove something. Especially when it is blatantly obvious.



Bitch please, you can't even back up your bullshit about teachers being overpaid.

...

you look just like ol' Cosmored.

Is that what you are shooting for?

Or are you gonna walk it back a bit, and maybe admit you might have been wrong?


Did I say overpaid? I meant over compensated, but pay is part of that. Supply and demand.

Paste away... Supply and demand...

You guys simply will not accept my answer, so FUCK YOU!


Now, make the case for teachers being incompetent, over compensated and stupid. Go ahead. We're all waiting.


I already did. Sorry that you didn't understand. Is it because you are a teacher?


Ex Teacher. And no you didn't outside of tossing out "Supply and Demand", which is not exactly cutting it.


Hmmmm...

Are you saying they aren't getting qualified teachers at the rate of pay they give?

Again, of that 8.5% that leave the profession within 3 years, how much money would it take to reduce that by half?

How are you going to stop mobility, which is around half of the turnover rate?

I won't ask you about the retirees again. i will assume you agree teachers should be able to retire.

Why did you leave? why are you part of the problem?


In this thread:

WC asks for proof.

People provide proof.

WC says that's not enough proof.

People provide more proof.

WC complains about an excess of proof.


LnGrrR...

I have always likes you, but you are turning into a royal libtard in front of my eyes. I don't make up numbers that I post, which you seem to imply. Would you at least admit that I do normally link my material? Just because I don't in active conversation all the time when multitasking, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Now...

If I was asked at the time the conversation was active, I would have provided the link the numbers from post 129 came from.

Post #129:
Now. Here is another year of the same type study:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Politics/teachersurvey_zps3d09c932.png (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2010/2010353.pdf)

Link attached to the graphic.

Finally we get to "they don't really leave the teaching profession in large numbers, so they must be overpaid".

We have a weak sauce attempt now.

Yay.

A reasonably good critical thinker could now identify if this evidence is sufficient to show prove the thesis to any reasonable degree.

How exactly does this support your assertion? Be specific.

[Wild Cobra]

The govt pays them with tax money! WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GET THE MONEY TO COMPETE?
Compete with whom?

Do we have a shortage of teachers? Just how is paying them more, going to improve education?

[Wild Cobra]

That's not an argument for overcompensation. To distill your point, you claim that teachers are overpaid (compensated). You have yet to make a single, cogent point supporting that. Nothing.
OK then, it's obvious you feel teachers are entitled. Entitled to more than the average parent makes of the students they teach.

How long have you had this entitlement mentality?

Why are teachers entitled?

[Wild Cobra]

If you had at least a room temperature IQ, you would modify that argument to: "Teachers are adequately compensated." That's at least an arguable point. But then, you would have to admit your earlier position was incorrect. You're much to small to do that.
I have tempered my argument by stating teachers are overpaid where I live. I will agree that teachers elsewhere don't get paid and compensated as well as those in my state. Still, as long as the union pay scale is such that merit pay is not the primary reason for individual salaries, I will stick with supply and demand for compensation calculations.

You want collective bargaining, then all can receive what the bottom of the barrel gets. Convince the unions to allow pay by merit, and see the pay scales broaden, and see teachers do better to get that higher pay.

Why should the best of them apply themselves when they see coworkers who are lazy get the same pay? Individual bargaining is a better way to raise quality. Pay cannot raise quality when such inequities are real, and its next to impossible to fire the bottom of the barrel.

[Wild Cobra]

According to this table, what percentage of teachers stay in the profession to the tenth year?
Where did I make such a claim?

[boutons_deux]

Compete with whom?

Do we have a shortage of teachers? Just how is paying them more, going to improve education?

we have shortage of good teachers.

how is paying them less, going to improve education?

[Wild Cobra]

Finally we get to "they don't really leave the teaching profession in large numbers, so they must be overpaid".

We have a weak sauce attempt now.

Yay.

A reasonably good critical thinker could now identify if this evidence is sufficient to show prove the thesis to any reasonable degree.

How exactly does this support your assertion? Be specific.
So many posts to try to pin that my position of overcompensation is due to the numbers leaving. And i will agree with TB, my argument should be "not under compensated."

Sorry Random. Two different arguments going on.

You can call bullshit all you want. It will not change my answer that as long as we don't have a shortage of teachers, they are adequately compensated to keep a supply of teachers around. What good is paying them more going to do, but entice even more students to go into the teaching profession? There are only limited numbers of positions, and it will increase the numbers of college graduates who cannot find work in the major.

My other argument was the high numbers of teacher turnout were flat out bogus.

You know...

Some people say the definition of insanity, is repeating the same actions and expecting different results. Are you insane by doing after me over and over, and expect that I will change what I say?

[TeyshaBlue]

OK then, it's obvious you feel teachers are entitled. Entitled to more than the average parent makes of the students they teach.

How long have you had this entitlement mentality?

Why are teachers entitled?
Stop obfuscating and answer the fucking question already.

[TeyshaBlue]

Where did I make such a claim?

Stop obfuscating and answer the fucking question.

[TeyshaBlue]

I have tempered my argument by stating teachers are overpaid where I live. I will agree that teachers elsewhere don't get paid and compensated as well as those in my state. Still, as long as the union pay scale is such that merit pay is not the primary reason for individual salaries, I will stick with supply and demand for compensation calculations.

You want collective bargaining, then all can receive what the bottom of the barrel gets. Convince the unions to allow pay by merit, and see the pay scales broaden, and see teachers do better to get that higher pay.

Why should the best of them apply themselves when they see coworkers who are lazy get the same pay? Individual bargaining is a better way to raise quality. Pay cannot raise quality when such inequities are real, and its next to impossible to fire the bottom of the barrel.

Yet you never showed how you arrived at your conclusion that teachers are overpaid in your area. The rest of your post is completely irrelevant bullshit.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm sorry, until teachers accept the fact that they are over compensated for their jobs, I have no sympathy for their whining.

Ready for some facts whenever you can get around to supporting this.

[Wild Cobra]

we have shortage of good teachers.

how is paying them less, going to improve education?
Neither will. As long as we don't pay and fire by merit, we have a lowest common denominator system. You see it all the time in union jobs. Excellent performance until tenure, probation, etc. is made. Then a significant number of workers in any union job start being slackers.

I am all for paying the best, so much more. I am unwilling to pay more on pay scales based time time in service.

You want better teachers? You have to pay by merit, and let that new supply and demand system work.

[Wild Cobra]

Stop obfuscating and answer the fucking question already.
I have answered the question. Supply of teachers going into the profession is not a shortage of the demand. There is no reason to raise wages under such circumstances.

I'll ask you the same question I asked random.

Are you insane, thinking asking the same question over and over will get a different answer from me?

[TeyshaBlue]

neverfuckingmind

[TeyshaBlue]

I have answered the question. Supply of teachers going into the profession is not a shortage of the demand. There is no reason to raise wages under such circumstances.

I'll ask you the same question I asked random.

Are you insane, thinking asking the same question over and over will get a different answer from me?

First off, your initial statement literally makes no sense. I'm not exactly sure what the hell you're trying to say there.
Second statement is a functional non sequitur since the initial statement has no meaning.
Third...I'm just waiting for you to demonstrate why you think "supply and demand" supports your conclusion.

[Wild Cobra]

LOL...

Look Jackass, I don't have to explain myself. If you don't understand Supply and Demand, then why should I go farther and waste my time?

Union pay scales are often the pay that the lowest quality worker gets. Just that simple.

I'll throw you a tangent though...

No matter what that pay scale is, you will still have the good teachers resenting the bad teachers who are on the same pay scale. Take away the union protection in some cases, and pay by merit. Keep the bottom of the pay scale where it is, or lower it, and increase the top of the scale...

[TeyshaBlue]

LOL...

Look Jackass, I don't have to explain myself. If you don't understand Supply and Demand, then why should I go farther and waste my time?



Look Jackass, you do have to explain yourself since you've yet to make any sense whatsoever with your union drivel. Tell me why my kids teachers are over compensated, or failing that, adequately compensated. Just saying "supply and demand" is not an answer if you cannot construct a cogent illustration or at least cite a study or two underpinning your "facts". If you don't understand your stance, then why should I even consider it?

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not a union guy, in any form or fashion. But your reliance on bolstering your position by wagging around your union teddy bear is telling.

[Wild Cobra]

Look Jackass, you do have to explain yourself since you've yet to make any sense whatsoever with your union drivel. Tell me why my kids teachers are over compensated, or failing that, adequately compensated. Just saying "supply and demand" is not an answer if you cannot construct a cogent illustration or at least cite a study or two underpinning your "facts". If you don't understand your stance, then why should I even consider it?
I won't act like an insane person, so I will not ask this question over and over.

How is better compensation going to improve education?

Maybe your kids teacher is under compensated in your specific area and job skills. But... union pay is a one-size-fits-all approach. How can you increase their compensation without doing the same to others in the same union?

Some places have an excessively high turnover. Just not the national average. I'll bet new teachers go to the bad schools where openings are always present as teachers exercise their mobility. Would you entertain the idea of higher pay for bad neighborhood schools, without having to increase the compensation of the better job assignments?

[TeyshaBlue]

I've already illustrated, by cite and actual study, the costs of retraining teachers both economically and by the impact it has on student performance and achievement.

Leave unions out of this already. It has nothing to do with teachers, as a population, being under or over compensated.

Yes, WC, I understand there are abuses of tenure. I also understand that statistically, this number likely never crosses the threshold of noise.

[Wild Cobra]

I've already illustrated, by cite and actual study, the costs of retraining teachers both economically and by the impact it has on student performance and achievement.

Leave unions out of this already. It has nothing to do with teachers, as a population, being under or over compensated.

Yes, WC, I understand there are abuses of tenure. I also understand that statistically, this number likely never crosses the threshold of noise.
And this is going to change teacher turnover rates... how...

Part of you claim is that the turnover rates are higher than what the national average really is. Therefore, you are talking about a small degree of cherry picked locations. What is it when we remove retirement and mobility?

[TeyshaBlue]

Why remove retirement and mobility? Both require retraining of replacements. No, they should be included as well...even though the figures I sourced didn't included them.
Indeed, with the upcoming wave of boomer retirements, teachers are going be even scarcer than they already are.

". The national teacher turnover rate has risen to 16.8 percent."
". In No Dream Denied (2003), NCTAF reported that 287,370 teachers left teaching during the 1999-2000 school year (220,582 left for other pursuits and 66,788 retired). Recently released data from the 2003-04 Schools and Staffing Survey show that this attrition is worsening. During the 2003-2004 school year, 332,700 left teaching (245,429 left for other pursuits, and 88,271 retired)6. Bright young teachers are leaving at an unsustainable rate"
http://nctaf.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/NCTAF-Cost-of-Teacher-Turnover-2007-policy-brief.pdf
Follow the footnotes, WC. The sources are valid.

Once you acknowledge the turnover rates, then you look for the underlying reasons.

Five Reasons Teacher Turnover Is on the Rise
Money and respect are only two things quality educators want more of.
http://www.takepart.com/article/2011/08/09/five-reasons-teacher-turnover-rise



This is not the first time these studies have been linked, WC. That you cannot connect the dots suggests that you simply do not want to.


And again, this makes the case that teachers are under-compensated as a population. Notice I use actual cites and studies to back up my position.

Teacher Turnover: A Conceptual Analysis
http://cnx.org/content/m18916/latest/

[RandomGuy]

According to this table, what percentage of teachers stay in the profession to the tenth year?


Where did I make such a claim?

um, I didn't say you made any claim. I just wanted to ask you what you thought the answer was. If you don't know or can't figure it out, just say so.

[Drachen]

In this thread:

WC asks for proof.

People provide proof.

WC says that's not enough proof.

People provide more proof.

WC complains about an excess of proof.

- Proof that this thread is par for the course.

[RandomGuy]

I have tempered my argument by stating teachers are overpaid where I live.

So you have walked it back.

Quite frankly, I don't think you can support even that more limited statement. The amount of data you would have to present to prove even that much more limited statement is pretty large, and you haven't even defined your terms yet.

The arguments that the US in general doesn't pay its teachers enough are far more compelling, IMO.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/what-the-us-cant-learn-from-finland-about-ed-reform/2012/04/16/gIQAGIvVMT_blog.html


Finland is home to such a coherent national system of teacher education. And unlike in the United States, teaching is one of the top career choices among young Finns. Teachers in Finland are highly regarded professionals — akin to medical doctors and lawyers. There are eight universities educating teachers in Finland, and all their programs have the same high academic standards. Furthermore, a research-based master’s degree is the minimum requirement to teach in Finland.

They sink a LOT of resources into their teachers, regard them highly, pay them highly, and shockingly enough, that produces results.

In all the bustle of what needs to be done for schools, this is emerging as an underlying theme in a lot of formal acedemic research.

The other thing you probably wouldn't like is that we need to throw more money at the problem to fix it. More socialism.

Until you can wrap yer head around that, be ready for more studies show how the socialists educate their kids better than we do, and by just about any measure, they do.

[TeyshaBlue]

Until you can wrap yer head around that, be ready for more studies show how the socialists educate their kids better than we do, and by just about any measure, they do.

Now you've done it.:lol

[RandomGuy]

I won't act like an insane person, so I will not ask this question over and over.

How is better compensation going to improve education?

Maybe your kids teacher is under compensated in your specific area and job skills. But... union pay is a one-size-fits-all approach. How can you increase their compensation without doing the same to others in the same union?

Some places have an excessively high turnover. Just not the national average. I'll bet new teachers go to the bad schools where openings are always present as teachers exercise their mobility. Would you entertain the idea of higher pay for bad neighborhood schools, without having to increase the compensation of the better job assignments?

Better pay for one thing, does increase retention.

The question you should be asking yourself is:

How much does the turnover COST the economy?

As noted it has some pretty definite costs, and those are quite measurable.

Once one gets close to a rough answer for that, we can then ask ourselves how much more can we pay to avoid those added costs?

If we pay out another $1 of gross pay, how much cost is avoided?
For that matter, how much do you improve the quality of people attracted to the job in the first place. Finland gets its best and brightest to teach kids, as noted.


Can money buy good teachers?

by Dan Bobkoff
Marketplace for Monday, February 4, 2013Story.Being a public school teacher has never been the road to wealth. But there’s a public charter school in New York City that’s paying its teachers six figures.
Kristen VanOllefen was teaching music in New Jersey when she read about the school on a friend's Facebook post.

"And, I said, who gets paid $125,000?” VanOllefen remembered.

After a few years, and a grueling hiring process, VanOllefen can now say she does.

The school is called The Equity Project Charter School, or TEP for short. Most of its students are low-income and from the Washington Heights neighborhood. Since it opened four years ago, it’s been at the forefront of an experiment to see if paying top teachers top-dollar leads to a better education.


Zeke Vanderhoek, TEP’s founder and principal, says he would have paid teachers even more, but “candidly, it was the maximum amount that would keep our budget in the black.”


Vanderhoek wants to prove that if you've got great teachers, little else matters, and, you can afford them, even on a public school budget. "Teachers are the critical lever in student achievement, in student growth. If we’re serious about this, let’s pay them what they’re worth,” Vanderhoek says.

But that strategy has its own costs. For now, TEP is a just a group of red trailers. The kids walk outside between periods.

There are no small classes, and there aren't laptops on every desk. Vanderhoek hopes the school moves to a better building some day. But, to him, what matters is having top teachers in the classroom, so that’s where the money goes.

In Kristen VanOllefen’s music class, there are also lessons in vocabulary and math. And Van Ollefen's job doesn't stop at the classroom. Last year, she also administered state achievement tests. This year, she has a different additional job. And that’s part of the secret to TEP's high pay: Most teachers are doing the work of, well, two teachers.


TEP saves money by not hiring the kind of support staff other schools have. There are no substitutes. That makes for long, demanding days. Casey Ash, for instance, is both the 8th grade math teacher and the assistant principal. “I certainly don’t think it’s the right fit for everybody,” Ash says.

Judith LeFevre learned that lesson the hard way. She spent most of her teaching career in Arizona, where she was highly regarded, but the pay was lousy. “After 30 years, I was still making just over $40,000,” she said.


So she applied to TEP. During the year-long interview process at TEP, she was observed in the classroom several times. Many applicants also submit videos of their teaching, or samples of student work showing major improvements.

LeFevre was finally hired to teach special education, and serve as the dean of discipline. Expectations were high. She soon found that her Arizona skills weren't as effective with students in New York.

After her first year, she wasn’t asked back.

“I think the big unanswered question is 'gee, what would’ve happened the second year, now that I had those skills, and had made that improvement?'” she says.

But for TEP founder Zeke Vanderhoek, there’s no time to wait. Teachers must bring their A-game on day one, or else.

“We give our master teachers one year to prove themselves,” Vanderhoek says.

Teachers are judged on classroom management and student test scores. They're also evaluated by other teachers. Vanderhoek says about a quarter of them don't make it to the second year.

Michelle Fine studies urban education at the City University of New York. She says she’s “a little worried about sustainability of the model. [TEP] might, in fact, be getting highly qualified educators, but either they’re burning out, or it’s not working very well, or they’re dissatisfied," she said.

Teachers at TEP acknowledge the stress, but many insisted it’s worth it. And they commend the quality of their colleagues.

Fine says she doesn't expect the school to become a national model, even though it may work well for this one community in Washington Heights.

And even that isn't clear yet. TEP hasn’t even been open four years. And while student test scores are creeping up, it’s too early to declare it a success.

This year, TEP’s first class of eighth graders will head off to high school. In a few years, we’ll know better if their highly paid teachers will have a lasting effect on their lives.
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/education/can-money-buy-good-teachers


Thety have been at it for a few years. This pretty much cuts to the heart of the subject.

[RandomGuy]

I think it is exciting to see all the charter innovation in the country. We are learning a LOT about what makes good schools, and the cumulative nature of knowledge means that we will get to the point where we will know what works and what doesn't.

[RandomGuy]

Now you've done it.:lol

OH yeah, I used the "s" word.

:stirpot

[Nbadan]

Soon as people wake up the unregulated capitalism we have today is going the way of the socialism of the old Soviet Union...

WELCOME to today's 'socialism'

Bernie Sanders: Something's Not-So-Rotten in Denmark
by Sen. Bernie Sanders



Danish Ambassador Peter Taksoe-Jensen spent a weekend in Vermont this month traveling with me to town meetings in Burlington, Brattleboro and Montpelier. Large crowds came out to learn about a social system very different from our own which provides extraordinary security and opportunity for the people of Denmark.

Today in the United States there is a massive amount of economic anxiety. Unemployment is much too high, wages and income are too low, millions of Americans are struggling to find affordable health care and the gap between the very rich and everyone else is growing wider.

While young working families search desperately for affordable child care, older Americans worry about how they can retire with dignity. Many of our people are physically exhausted as they work the longest hours of any industrialized country and have far less paid vacation time than other major countries

Denmark is a small, homogenous nation of about 5.5 million people. The United States is a melting pot of more than 315 million people. No question about it, Denmark and the United States are very different countries. Nonetheless, are there lessons that we can learn from Denmark? ................(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/what-can-we-learn-from-de_b_3339736.html?ncid=txtlnkushpmg00000037

Not quite the nightmare bogeyman wing-nut socialism....

[Nbadan]

I think it is exciting to see all the charter innovation in the country. We are learning a LOT about what makes good schools, and the cumulative nature of knowledge means that we will get to the point where we will know what works and what doesn't.

Charter schools get to 'cherry-pick' students and they still do a generally inadequate job at passing standardized testing...There are exceptions of course, just as there are exceptions in public schools...in general, the majority of students would rather do a million other things than study for a math, science or history test..and the state is heading away from tests were kids can 'cram' for....today's test require much deeper thinking than the standardized test most people who read this forum took....

[LnGrrrR]

WC, how exactly would you quantify a teacher's worth? Raw test score data? Percentage of improvement from year to year?

[Wild Cobra]

WC, how exactly would you quantify a teacher's worth? Raw test score data? Percentage of improvement from year to year?
There are different ways of doing it, each with their own drawbacks. Even a method with flaws would be better than wage increases by time in.

Again, as long as there is no method of rewarding those who deserve it, I am not game to pay more than the least qualified. Now don't come back with level of education. Education doesn't mean shit in the real world, unless you are capable of applying it.

[RandomGuy]

There are different ways of doing it, each with their own drawbacks. Even a method with flaws would be better than wage increases by time in.

Again, as long as there is no method of rewarding those who deserve it, I am not game to pay more than the least qualified. Now don't come back with level of education. Education doesn't mean shit in the real world, unless you are capable of applying it.

Most employers would disagree with you on that.

I will come back to it, as slogging your way through grad school is NOT easy by any stretch. That is part of the reason why employers place a premium on higher education. If you can be organized and motivated enough to get the degrees, that says a lot.

[RandomGuy]

Charter schools get to 'cherry-pick' students and they still do a generally inadequate job at passing standardized testing...There are exceptions of course, just as there are exceptions in public schools...in general, the majority of students would rather do a million other things than study for a math, science or history test..and the state is heading away from tests were kids can 'cram' for....today's test require much deeper thinking than the standardized test most people who read this forum took....

That is not quite fair. Charter schools themselves are not THE answer, but they do allow for laboratories in which to test solutions and theories. As long as they aren't outright harmful to their kids, then I don't see testing what works and what doesn't as a bad thing, do you?

[LnGrrrR]

There are different ways of doing it, each with their own drawbacks. Even a method with flaws would be better than wage increases by time in.

Again, as long as there is no method of rewarding those who deserve it, I am not game to pay more than the least qualified. Now don't come back with level of education. Education doesn't mean shit in the real world, unless you are capable of applying it.

Surely, there's some sort of informal metrics being used right now?

[Wild Cobra]

Surely, there's some sort of informal metrics being used right now?
I'm sure there is. I'm also sure there is a better way for rating teachers than I could come up with. I have the wrong background.

Would you agree teachers should get some kind of performance based pay? Maybe the current step pay and a performance pay? Maybe even pay bonuses by location. Have like a set extra $100 a week for the bad schools nobody wants to teach at, when they can move to a different school/position?

[RandomGuy]

I'm sure there is. I'm also sure there is a better way for rating teachers than I could come up with. I have the wrong background.

Would you agree teachers should get some kind of performance based pay? Maybe the current step pay and a performance pay? Maybe even pay bonuses by location. Have like a set extra $100 a week for the bad schools nobody wants to teach at, when they can move to a different school/position?

I do indeed. I am for across the board pay increases, with steep stipends for failing schools. I also want a blanket of social safety nets to cover all the out of school shit that gets in teh way of learning. This is what the socialist countries do well.

In return, I would damn well expect teachers to produce good results, and if you can't then be shown the door, seniority or no. I would agree that any union that got in the way of getting rid of shitty teachers should be squished like a bug. They should be the ones deeply involved in setting the standards though, as long as they were adequate. Input, but not final say-so.

[Wild Cobra]

I do indeed. I am for across the board pay increases, with steep stipends for failing schools. I also want a blanket of social safety nets to cover all the out of school shit that gets in teh way of learning. This is what the socialist countries do well.

In return, I would damn well expect teachers to produce good results, and if you can't then be shown the door, seniority or no. I would agree that any union that got in the way of getting rid of shitty teachers should be squished like a bug. They should be the ones deeply involved in setting the standards though, as long as they were adequate. Input, but not final say-so.
If you like those socialist country ideas so much, why not move to one?

[TeyshaBlue]

smh

[RandomGuy]

If you like those socialist country ideas so much, why not move to one?

I may indeed do so.

The fun thing is that the most socialist countries tend to have sovereign investment funds that partially fund the goverment, and provide benefits that keep taxes lower than they would otherwise be.

Knee-jerk, boring cliches aside, though do you think teachers should be paid more in return of performance measures?

[boutons_deux]

"teachers should be paid more"

a LOT more, as to attract better quality, but requires BETTER, more education, 3-year apprenticeship before getting tenure and benefits. Being a K-12 teacher should be a difficult goal to be highly valued and prized.

[TeyshaBlue]

"teachers should be paid more"

a LOT more, as to attract better quality, but requires BETTER, more education, 3-year apprenticeship before getting tenure and benefits. Being a K-12 teacher should be a difficult goal to be highly valued and prized.

I like the apprenticeship approach. I only had to do one year, my sr. year in college. I've always felt that one year was too short. I can't see any particular reason why we couldn't align college curriculum with a 2 year student teaching program for the Jr/Sr Years. I'm talking about an apprenticeship before getting certified. Tenure should be stricken from the lingo, imo.

[Wild Cobra]

I like the apprenticeship approach. I only had to do one year, my sr. year in college. I've always felt that one year was too short. I can't see any particular reason why we couldn't align college curriculum with a 2 year student teaching program for the Jr/Sr Years. I'm talking about an apprenticeship before getting certified. Tenure should be stricken from the lingo, imo.
Here's something I actually agree with you on.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I actually kinda agree with WC on teacher's unions. There's a big enough gap between good teachers and bad teachers where teachers unions are counter productive in some areas. Maybe that's oversimplified, but the Chicago teachers unions that went on strike over whether or not teachers should be evaluated really put a sour taste of teachers unions in my mouth.

I also think pay should be structured somewhat based off what the teacher is teaching. A high school teacher teaching A.P. chemistry should make more than the one teaching freshman English (aka reading comprehension for dummies).

[TeyshaBlue]

I actually kinda agree with WC on teacher's unions. There's a big enough gap between good teachers and bad teachers where teachers unions are counter productive in some areas. Maybe that's oversimplified, but the Chicago teachers unions that went on strike over whether or not teachers should be evaluated really put a sour taste of teachers unions in my mouth.

I also think pay should be structured somewhat based off what the teacher is teaching. A high school teacher teaching A.P. chemistry should make more than the one teaching freshman English (aka reading comprehension for dummies).

I agree on the tier/subject approach generally. Not sure I'd be quite that granular. There are some unintended consequences to tiering pay in a public ed setting. Now, if you want to add stipends on top of base pay, I think that's probably a better way to handle it.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm sure there is. I'm also sure there is a better way for rating teachers than I could come up with. I have the wrong background.

Would you agree teachers should get some kind of performance based pay? Maybe the current step pay and a performance pay? Maybe even pay bonuses by location. Have like a set extra $100 a week for the bad schools nobody wants to teach at, when they can move to a different school/position?

I thought No Child Left Behind was a good idea, and look how that turned out. I'm probably not the best person to ask about this :)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I actually kinda agree with WC on teacher's unions. There's a big enough gap between good teachers and bad teachers where teachers unions are counter productive in some areas. Maybe that's oversimplified, but the Chicago teachers unions that went on strike over whether or not teachers should be evaluated really put a sour taste of teachers unions in my mouth.

I also think pay should be structured somewhat based off what the teacher is teaching. A high school teacher teaching A.P. chemistry should make more than the one teaching freshman English (aka reading comprehension for dummies).

The answer to that is simple. Instead of banning collective bargaining, you mandate that performance evaluation are non-negotiable. Unions should not be allowed to preserve the job of incompetents. That being said, a group of laborers should have the right to collectively bargain with their employers.

[Wild Cobra]

I actually kinda agree with WC on teacher's unions. There's a big enough gap between good teachers and bad teachers where teachers unions are counter productive in some areas. Maybe that's oversimplified, but the Chicago teachers unions that went on strike over whether or not teachers should be evaluated really put a sour taste of teachers unions in my mouth.

Thank-You for that.


I also think pay should be structured somewhat based off what the teacher is teaching. A high school teacher teaching A.P. chemistry should make more than the one teaching freshman English (aka reading comprehension for dummies).

Maybe, but isn't it possible that would incline some districts not to teach better courses? We all have our own beliefs of what is important for class types and what isn't. That freshman English class just might be real important to someone who wants to do better, but had problems for some reason.

I think the school should have some say and rating in their teachers performance, and there should also be some type of test. I am against evaluation based on how do the students do unless there is some checks and balances to keep from focusing on teaching the test.

I do want to see good teachers be rewarded, and bad teachers make bottom scale. Unions make such distinctions next to impossible these days.

[TeyshaBlue]

Thank-You for that.

Maybe, but isn't it possible that would incline some districts not to teach better courses? We all have our own beliefs of what is important for class types and what isn't. That freshman English class just might be real important to someone who wants to do better, but had problems for some reason.
No. Most school districts have a curriculum set by the state. They are not allowed to pick and choose. There might be some leeway in AP courses and some electives, but by and large, these decisions are not made at the local level.


I think the school should have some say and rating in their teachers performance, and there should also be some type of test. I am against evaluation based on how do the students do unless there is some checks and balances to keep from focusing on teaching the test.
The local districts do have say in rating performance. It's the compensation piece that's often taken out of their hands.


I do want to see good teachers be rewarded, and bad teachers make bottom scale. Unions make such distinctions next to impossible these days.

[RandomGuy]

Holy shit, a decent conversation broke out!!!


Fuck, when did that happen?

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm at a complete loss to explain it.

[Wild Cobra]

The name calling stopped...

[TeyshaBlue]

The name calling stopped...

Shup, retard!

[Wild Cobra]

I'm at a complete loss to explain it.


Shup, retard!
LOL...

OK, if you can't connect the dots...

[Wild Cobra]

TB, your first response to me:


Over compensated? Could you say anything stupider than that?

Maybe you would have quality debates if you stopped being an asshole.

[Nbadan]

That is not quite fair. Charter schools themselves are not THE answer, but they do allow for laboratories in which to test solutions and theories. As long as they aren't outright harmful to their kids, then I don't see testing what works and what doesn't as a bad thing, do you?

Look, my point is that charter schools will not, and are not required to accept kids with special needs nor kids with sever behavioral, psychological or emotional issues...if public schools could do that then you would see an incremental rise in the standard of education at most public schools..no need to 'experiment'..no child left behind is inclusion to the extreme, and while I agree all kids need social skills packing a room full of kids with sever learning or personal issues lowers the bar for everyone...

[Nbadan]

dp

[Nbadan]

I like the apprenticeship approach. I only had to do one year, my sr. year in college. I've always felt that one year was too short. I can't see any particular reason why we couldn't align college curriculum with a 2 year student teaching program for the Jr/Sr Years. I'm talking about an apprenticeship before getting certified. Tenure should be stricken from the lingo, imo.

There are programs like project gear which do just that...they are teaching apprenticeship payed by project share go help teachers by providing tutoring in class. In Texas you have to teach a minimum of 5 years to be vested....

[Nbadan]

I actually kinda agree with WC on teacher's unions. There's a big enough gap between good teachers and bad teachers where teachers unions are counter productive in some areas. Maybe that's oversimplified, but the Chicago teachers unions that went on strike over whether or not teachers should be evaluated really put a sour taste of teachers unions in my mouth.

Just like a bad economy can lead to a bad year or two for even the best salesman, a year or two of 'bad kids' can ruin the reputations of the best teachers...there are many stories of teachers being teacher-of-the-year one year and on probation or fired the next...

[Nbadan]

I also think pay should be structured somewhat based off what the teacher is teaching. A high school teacher teaching A.P. chemistry should make more than the one teaching freshman English (aka reading comprehension for dummies)

I kinda agree that more difficult subjects deserve stipends, but the minimum teacher pay right now would be my lower pay scale for all teachers, not the norm...most teacher candidates from teach for America and similar programs fail within the first 3 years...

[jack sommerset]

Did your wife find a job for the summer? I hope she is still not discourage by her teachers salary. There are plenty of ways to add to her income. God bless

[Capt Bringdown]

http://theeducatorsroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/school-reform.png

[jack sommerset]

Perhaps she can become a professor at a major college!!

Maybe she can get on board one of those really expensive private schools and make some money. They are hard to come by but if she has "it' there will be no stopping her!!!!!

I am pulling for your two. God bless

[Capt Bringdown]

http://www.susanohanian.org/nclb_cartoons/image001.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.susanohanian.org/nclb_cartoons/image001.jpg
And people wonder why others want to send their kids to private schools...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And people wonder why others want to send their kids to private schools...

And surprise surprise, the dumbass misses the point.

[snicker licker]

My wife has taught for over 20 years in Texas and loves her job. She works long hours and buys supplies out of our budget for her classroom that is not covered by her alloted funds. She loves her kids and works her ass off everyday. She hasn't gotten a raise in 3 years while the state cuts in education funding that cost jobs and increases her workload.

She is tired of being berated by the Fox News crowd for all of the problems in public schools. She is offended and realizes that many of her critics don't know what in the f*ck they are talking about.

She has come to despise republicans even though she is not a political person who never votes. She despises Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity and the likes for the continous lies they perpetuate about her profession.

Now we have teachers giving their lives up for their students in Sandy Hook and Moore, Oklahoma. Considering we have many on this board who blame teachers for the ills in public schools, maybe tragedies like this will make you pieces of crap realize that most teachers aren't lazy nor are they in it for the vacation.

Those republicans can go to hell.

Good job teach.
If any teacher actually buys supplies with their own money, they are stupid as hell.

The school provides all necessities. The extra supplies are no doubt not absolutely necessary and are most likely for some bullshit project.

IMO, Teachers are grossly overpaid and they more times than not are lazy as fuck and can't cut it in the real business world.

I absolutely think most teachers are the laziest of the lazy in the work force.

[leemajors]

If any teacher actually buys supplies with their own money, they are stupid as hell.

The school provides all necessities. The extra supplies are no doubt not absolutely necessary and are most likely for some bullshit project.

IMO, Teachers are grossly overpaid and they more times than not are lazy as fuck and can't cut it in the real business world.

I absolutely think most teachers are the laziest of the lazy in the work force.

You're a moron and obviously unfamiliar with Texas schools. The school provides very little outside of a classroom to teach in.

[boutons_deux]

If any teacher actually buys supplies with their own money, they are stupid as hell.

The school provides all necessities. The extra supplies are no doubt not absolutely necessary and are most likely for some bullshit project.

IMO, Teachers are grossly overpaid and they more times than not are lazy as fuck and can't cut it in the real business world.

I absolutely think most teachers are the laziest of the lazy in the work force.

rightwing fucktard vomiting his/her ignorance.

[boutons_deux]

Study: Teacher Prep Programs Get Failing Marks

The U.S. spends more than $7 billion a year preparing classroom teachers, but teachers are not coming out of the nation's colleges of education ready, according to a by U.S.News & World Report and the National Council on Teacher Quality.

The study says most schools of education are in disarray.

"Right now, much of higher ed believes that it's not their job to have a teacher be ready for the classroom on Day 1," says Kate Walsh, president of the National Council on Teacher Quality.

Her organization's study of more than 1,100 colleges of education found that 7 out of 10 programs did not adequately teach candidates how to teach reading. Nine out of 10 did a poor job preparing them to teach basic subjects like English, math, science or history.
Training in classroom management and the use of student data was lacking. The damage to K-12 education, says Walsh, is enormous, and she is on a mission to expose what she calls "widespread malpractice"in the field of teacher education.

"School districts are spending billions of dollars to make up for what teacher training programs are not doing," Walsh says.

Some colleges of education are so bad, the study attached a "consumer alert" to their names with this warning: "In our view, caution is advised as prospective teacher candidates are unlikely to gain much, if any, teacher training of value in return for their investment."

http://www.npr.org/2013/06/18/192765776/study-teacher-prep-programs-get-failing-marks?ft=3&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20130623

Teachers are overworked, underpaid (so the most qualified, motivated don't teach but follow the money elsewhere), and vehemently, relentless denigrated (so teachers quit after on a few years, 5 years on avg in TX) by VRWC to destroy the public school system and teacher's union as a source of Dem contributions. It's working. American if fucked by the VRWC and VRWC is unstoppable.

[snicker licker]

You're a moron and obviously unfamiliar with Texas schools. The school provides very little outside of a classroom to teach in.

Bull crap! Besides, outside of a classroom and books, what else is needed to teach? Let me guess, little Timmmmay needs extra crayons so bleeding heart lazy libtard wifey taps into nearly overdrawn bank account because those crayolas are sooo important.

LOL.

Fuck over paid, lazy teachers and educational workers. 3 months paid vacation, countless hours wasted during work hours on bullshit pep rallies, sporting events, etc.

Education in this country is a joke, but not because of lack of funding. It is a joke because the job is an easy way out for college grads who want to relive their glory days from high school and are too scared, lazy, stupid to get a job in the real business world. So they become glorified babysitters for full medical and 50k a year with 3 month vacation.

But they complain every chance they get because their isnt enough tax money left to get all the snot nosed brats the full set of crayolas for that oh so important project they want their class to do.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bull crap! Besides, outside of a classroom and books, what else is needed to teach? Let me guess, little Timmmmay needs extra crayons so bleeding heart lazy libtard wifey taps into nearly overdrawn bank account because those crayolas are sooo important.

LOL.

Fuck over paid, lazy teachers and educational workers. 3 months paid vacation, countless hours wasted during work hours on bullshit pep rallies, sporting events, etc.

Education in this country is a joke, but not because of lack of funding. It is a joke because the job is an easy way out for college grads who want to relive their glory days from high school and are too scared, lazy, stupid to get a job in the real business world. So they become glorified babysitters for full medical and 50k a year with 3 month vacation.

But they complain every chance they get because their isnt enough tax money left to get all the snot nosed brats the full set of crayolas for that oh so important project they want their class to do.

Maria Montessori thinks youre clueless.

You remind me of a friend who said that raising a kid was cheap. You just had to get them some diapers, a high chair and formuls. No big deal at all.

[angrydude]

Teacher evaluations really should be handled at the local level. It's impossible to judge the quality of a teacher based off of how shitty his/her dumbass students are.
Teachers shouldn't piss and moan they aren't making 100,000/year. You knew what you were getting into. And I doubt your next best alternative is working as a chemist for a pharmaceutical company.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Bull crap! Besides, outside of a classroom and books, what else is needed to teach? Let me guess, little Timmmmay needs extra crayons so bleeding heart lazy libtard wifey taps into nearly overdrawn bank account because those crayolas are sooo important.

LOL.

Fuck over paid, lazy teachers and educational workers. 3 months paid vacation, countless hours wasted during work hours on bullshit pep rallies, sporting events, etc.

Education in this country is a joke, but not because of lack of funding. It is a joke because the job is an easy way out for college grads who want to relive their glory days from high school and are too scared, lazy, stupid to get a job in the real business world. So they become glorified babysitters for full medical and 50k a year with 3 month vacation.

But they complain every chance they get because their isnt enough tax money left to get all the snot nosed brats the full set of crayolas for that oh so important project they want their class to do.

maybe teachers buy supplies for those who can't afford them... basic stuff to get through daily lessons... oh wait you already know that..lol... it's obvious you don't know any teachers..

[sjacquemotte]

The name calling stopped...
That's what I was thinking...

[Nbadan]

You're a moron and obviously unfamiliar with Texas schools. The school provides very little outside of a classroom to teach in.

Absolutely. Outside of supplying a classroom and some (usually outdated) technology....teachers buy all their own supplies....it's crazy...

What if private businesses ran like that?

And they get to deduct those business expenses from their taxes right?? Only if they itemize and keep all their receipts...otherwise they can deduct a max of $250...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's what I was thinking...

Except that it didn't. If 'name calling' prevents you from responding in an intelligent and logical manner then perhaps that is something you should work on. Banter in Texas is pretty much a way of life so perhaps I am just used to it.

[snicker licker]

What other supplies could you possible fucking need? Text books are supplied. Computers with internet access are available for use. All you need is a pen and a pencil and a spiral notebook. Simple as that. Anything else is just extras. Enough money is already spent on the schools. The ISD's however apparently want to continue to build palaces for campuses and want to have gigantic football stadiums. Those are obviously their priorities.

[boutons_deux]

"What other supplies could you possible fucking need?"

Teachers Spend Own Money On Necessity Items For Their Students: Report

Many teachers routinely spend money out of their own pockets on necessity items for their students, according to a nationwide survey conducted byAdoptAClassroom.org (http://www.adoptaclassroom.org/).

The organization surveyed 1,188 K-12 teachers from public, private and charter schools throughout the country, and found that the vast majority of teachers -- 91 percent -- reported purchasing things for their students that ranged from food and snacks, to personal care items like toothbrushes and soap.

“This survey of our teachers makes one thing abundantly clear: teachers are not only educating students, but through their out-of-pocket purchases, teachers are tackling major social issues such as homelessness, poverty, hunger and teaching students basic life skills,” said James Rosenberg, founder of AdoptAClassroom.org. “Again and again, we see it happen -- when society lets kids down, it’s teachers who step in to fill the gap.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/23/survey-many-teachers-repo_n_1822777.html

[TeyshaBlue]

What other supplies could you possible fucking need? Text books are supplied. Computers with internet access are available for use. All you need is a pen and a pencil and a spiral notebook. Simple as that. Anything else is just extras. Enough money is already spent on the schools. The ISD's however apparently want to continue to build palaces for campuses and want to have gigantic football stadiums. Those are obviously their priorities.

lol angry sock puppet

[LnGrrrR]

I can see why licker thinks teachers are overpaid. The ones that taught him certainly didn't do a good job.