Will Manu ever learn?

[MannyIsGod]

Tell me again about how much basketball smarts he has again. Please.

El Nono?

[chapnis]

No way that is a fucking flagrant, even the BSPN commentary team said it wasn't flagrant. Stern BS there.

[ffadicted]

it was the right play, BS call

[Obstructed_View]

Tell me again about how much basketball smarts he has again. Please.

El Nono?

You're an idiot.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm a Manu fan, but damn... you're up four. Let him get the layup, bring the ball back up the court up two points, and make them foul.

It was a dumb play.

[MannyIsGod]

LOL How was that the right play? LOL!!!!

[MannyIsGod]

I'm a Manu fan, but damn... you're up four. Let him get the layup, bring the ball back up the court up two points, and make them foul.

It was a dumb play.

I'm a Manu fan too. If ANYONE on this team should know better.

[Obstructed_View]

LOL How was that the right play? LOL!!!!

Because nobody in their right mind would think that was a flagrant foul. Put a hand on a guy's arm. There was no wind-up, it wasn't excessive.

[spurspokesman]

It was a stupid play. Point blank

[tah]

That was a terrible call.

[lefty]

lol Tony Parker


Dumb choking bitch trying to play hero ball

[urunobili]

Thread of the year candidate tbh :tu

[ffadicted]

How the fuck is anyone justifying fouling not being the right play? Honestly

[jag]

:cry leave Manu alone :cry

[100%duncan]

OP fail :lol

Manu did the right play. Refs fucked him over by calling it a flagrant 1. That bitch Allen deserves to get fined. :

[100%duncan]

OP fail :lol

Manu did the right play. Refs fucked him over by calling it a flagrant 1. That bitch Allen deserves to get fined. :

[MannyIsGod]

How the fuck is anyone justifying fouling not being the right play? HonestlyIt doesn't help you win. People can say it was a soft flagrant - and it was - but its called a flagrant a decent amount of the time. Maybe not half of the time - because it was soft - but Manu pulls him down and doesn't make a play on the ball. And even if its not, he likely makes 2 free throws and you're in the same position anyway. If you don't foul, he scores the layup and then you get the ball back with under 30 seconds to go. They likely have to foul and then you just need to hit your free throws. It doesn't help you win and it actually puts you in a position for OT. Its not really difficult.

[emanueldavidginobili]

He hit his arm for crying out loud...TA easily could have missed free throws that shouldn't of been a flagrant, and if the refs didn't fall for TA Oscar performance everyone would be saying good foul

[Bill_Brasky]

Manu just wanted to make TA earn the points, he obviously didn't know there would be a laughable flop and subsequent shit call.

[emanueldavidginobili]

We won a HUGE game to go up 2-0 and all you can do after the game is make a thread to bash Ginobili gtfo tbh

[therealtruth]

I trust Green at the end of games more now. He would have blocked Allen's shot.

[Spurminator]

Yeah I have a hard time being too mad at Manu for that. That's a foul you should be able to make in this league. I was more angry with Manu's sloppiness on the other end that led to that fast break.

[Holden_Caulfield]

lol it was the right play. allen sucks at free throws. like everyone said it was a stupid call even more dumb after the replay. the refs should get fined for that haha

[ElNono]

Tell me again about how much basketball smarts he has again. Please.

El Nono?

uh? Fouling is the right play... that was no flagrant...

If he doesn't foul, he has to hear it from Pop... no layups at the end of playoff games...

You can't be this dumb.

[Man In Black]

the right play... the wrong fucking call. Even with the replay, they went straight shenanigans. NBA will probably rescind that flagrant and fine Allen for the flop.

[Obstructed_View]

MiG thinks Manu's to blame for 2006 when Rasho and Nazr were benched for the entire fucking series and he'd just hit a three to put the Spurs ahead. Reference to "will he ever learn" about two fouls that are seven years apart.

[DAF86]

In the good old NBA days that's not a flagrant, now maybe it is. Either way I hated that call and I would have done the same, Allen is not a good free throw shooter getting him to miss one of two would have been huge. Fuck Stern and his pussified league, tbh.

[Obstructed_View]

I was more angry with Manu's sloppiness on the other end that led to that fast break.

Matt Bonner acting like he was going to set a pick and then shying away from it like a little girl who sees a bug tbh.

[ElNono]

It doesn't help you win. People can say it was a soft flagrant - and it was - but its called a flagrant a decent amount of the time. Maybe not half of the time - because it was soft - but Manu pulls him down and doesn't make a play on the ball. And even if its not, he likely makes 2 free throws and you're in the same position anyway. If you don't foul, he scores the layup and then you get the ball back with under 30 seconds to go. They likely have to foul and then you just need to hit your free throws. It doesn't help you win and it actually puts you in a position for OT. Its not really difficult.

:lol He fouled in the arm. That's what you're supposed to do. Foul hard, clean and make sure it's not an and1.

You don't give up two points, you make him earn them from the line.

Allen acted and sold some shit that will earn him a fine. Manu has nothing to do with that.

and lol @ the kneejerk bullshit when this game was entirely on Pop for rolling with -17 redhead for way too long.

[tuncaboylu]

It was a bad call. Refs wanted a close game and got whay they wanted.

[2centsworth]

I liked the foul there. Didn't know that type of foul is considered flagrant. Next time we know and should let the guy go, but I've never seen a foul like that called flagrant. Maybe I just don't know the rules.

[DAF86]

Yeah I have a hard time being too mad at Manu for that. That's a foul you should be able to make in this league. I was more angry with Manu's sloppiness on the other end that led to that fast break.

He got the ball with two or three fucking seconds in the shot clock.

[MannyIsGod]

Manu makes a foul that directly leads to the Spurs going in OT. If Manu doesn't foul - no OT. Manu apologists call it the right play.

:tu

[z0sa]

The preceding turnover was lazy and stupid; however the foul was smart in theory but the refs changed the game when they made the worst call of the playoffs thus far.

[Mr. Body]

Right play. (Turning the fucking ball over is another issue.)

Terrible call. Couldn't they see what a stupid-ass acting job Allen was throwing in? That was embarrassing.

[kaji157]

It was the right play, he grabbed and arm, that´s never a flagrant foul. And the acting shouldnt be important here because normal refs would review the call and make it a simple foul call.
The play was right because he made a good foul in a moment when it was reviewable.
The refs still wanted to give the ball to Memphis, nothing to do with that.

[romain.star]

Manu has a history of mind boggling decisions late in games but here, he did the right play since it was NOT a flagrant foul (plus T. Allen is a bad FT shooter)

Don't blame Manu for the collapse, he was fine. This OT is on Pop small ball lineup in the 4th and alsoon TP unability to shoot the ball in the 4th

[hater]

if this thread is about the foul, this is a real stupid thread

it was a good foul. Tony Allen sold the flagrant to the fucking refs.

one of the dumbest threads in a log time if that's the reason IMO

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Thread of the year candidate tbh :tu

[100%duncan]

if this thread is about the foul, this is a real stupid thread

it was a good foul. Tony Allen sold the flagrant to the fucking refs.

one of the dumbest threads in a log time if that's the reason IMO

You know Manu's foul was legit when Hater is defending him tbh. Stupid thread.

[100%duncan]

if this thread is about the foul, this is a real stupid thread

it was a good foul. Tony Allen sold the flagrant to the fucking refs.

one of the dumbest threads in a log time if that's the reason IMO

You know Manu's foul was legit when Hater is defending him tbh. Stupid thread.

[kaji157]

The preceding turnover was lazy and stupid; however the foul was smart in theory but the refs changed the game when they made the worst call of the playoffs thus far.
I am not sure you remember the play Ginobilir eceived the ball from bonner who had the 3, with 3.3 seconds in the shot clock, tried to put the shot up but he was being double teamed. Still the correct call should have been a 24 seconds violation.

[hater]

Manu makes a foul that directly leads to the Spurs going in OT. If Manu doesn't foul - no OT. Manu apologists call it the right play.

:tu

:lmao what a stupid way of thinking. it was a 4pt lead, Manu did not want to give the easy basket which is the 100% right call

there was nothing about the foul that was flagrant. :rolleyes

[T Park]

I'm a Manu fan, but damn... you're up four. Let him get the layup, bring the ball back up the court up two points, and make them foul.

It was a dumb play.



Agreed 1000%

[2centsworth]

Manu makes a foul that directly leads to the Spurs going in OT. If Manu doesn't foul - no OT. Manu apologists call it the right play.

:tu

What? Did you know that type of foul is flagrant? If not, it's between layup or pts at the FT line with 40 or so seconds left up by 4.

[Spurminator]

He got the ball with two or three fucking seconds in the shot clock.

So dribbling backwards into a crowd instead of going right and putting up a shot probably wasn't the right play.

[Warlord23]

Unfortunately this is what you get with Manu, you take the good with the bad. He plays by instinct all the time.

- Fouling Tony Allen would have been a good play under normal circumstances, but not when there's 20-odd seconds to go with a 4-point lead
- Trying to block Dirk's layup in 2006 would have been a good play under normal circumstances, but not when you're at the end of regulation, up 3

[2centsworth]

A 2pt game with 40 or so seconds left or 4pt with TA at the ft line. I'll take the latter.

[ElNono]

I'm too happy with the win to dwell on this, tbh... it was the right decision IMO, and if he doesn't foul Pop unleashes on his ass... that's all there should be to it...

The choke in this game had very little to do with one play anyways...we stopped moving the ball and playing smart... hopefully some rest will help...

[DMC]

Why is it called a charity stripe if you have to earn your points from there?

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

It doesn't matter how bad the call was, he put the refs in the position to decide the game, this isn't a one time deal with this guy. It's what he does is act stupid

[DAF86]

So dribbling backwards into a crowd instead of going right and putting up a shot probably wasn't the right play.

The problem there was not knowing how much time was left, when he realized he was already fucked.

[letmk]

It doesn't matter with what Allen did. That's a STUPID foul by Manu. No way to sugarcoat it. Even it's not a flagrant call, it could end up with 2+1 play. Plus, if he does this with LeBron and Wade (If Spurs can get that far), it would be more likely to be called a flagrant foul.

[MannyIsGod]

What? Did you know that type of foul is flagrant? If not, it's between layup or pts at the FT line with 40 or so seconds left up by 4.

The moment it happend I told Jekka it was a flagrant, so I guess so. That play is a flagrant a good amount of the time in today's NBA. Not sure why Spurs fans in this thread are acting like its not. See way softer flagrants than that. He hit him on his arm and pulled him down. No play on the ball. Tony Allen sold it for sure but Manu put him in a position to do so to begin with.

[Spurminator]

Should have never gotten to the point where this play mattered anyway, tbh.

[ShoogarBear]

Oh, there's so much to be mad about in that fourth quarter it's hard for me to get worked up about this one play. (As opposed to 2006, which was colossally stupid.)

After thinking about it, it was a good foul. There wasn't much time to consider the strategy, and if it hadn't been called a flagrant, nobody would be saying anything about it.

However, the refs review . . . :lmao This might be the first flagrant foul in history to not just be overturned, but for the foulee to then get a flopping fine.

[2centsworth]

I review the play by play and there was 26secs left. I think you let TA go, but borderline.

I thought TD's dumb tip attempt on Tony's missed layup was worse. TD could have secured an easy RB and ran the clock.

[Warlord23]

A 2pt game with 40 or so seconds left or 4pt with TA at the ft line. I'll take the latter.

Manu was in no position to foul him in a predictable way on that play, he was behind Allen. There were 3 outcomes possible there:
1. Regular foul, 2 FTs
2. And-1, possible 3 point play
3. Flagrant foul, possible 4-point play

Only 1 of those 3 outcomes is superior to the uncontested layup. The other 2 are worse. And, given the score and the clock, that was a risk he did not have to take, no matter how improbable the latter 2 outcomes were

[DMC]

I'm too happy with the win to dwell on this, tbh... it was the right decision IMO, and if he doesn't foul Pop unleashes on his ass... that's all there should be to it...

The choke in this game had very little to do with one play anyways...we stopped moving the ball and playing smart... hopefully some rest will help...

Any time we start leaving Matt Bonner along up top with the ball we aren't playing our game right. We get into that mode sometimes and Matt just stands there looking like he just got caught stealing. Matt in the game means Matt at the 3pt line, he's a horrible defender and he should never get the ball up top like that. They ran that play several times and it caused them to force up desperation shots.

We cannot win with Matt Bonner getting big minutes, can't happen.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

His foul on dirk was the right play too lol

/ Black bold*non gray /

[MannyIsGod]

A 2pt game with 40 or so seconds left or 4pt with TA at the ft line. I'll take the latter.

No where near 40 seconds left when that happend. Under 30.

[hater]

Manu was in no position to foul him in a predictable way on that play, he was behind Allen. There were 3 outcomes possible there:
1. Regular foul, 2 FTs
2. And-1, possible 3 point play
3. Flagrant foul, possible 4-point play

Only 1 of those 3 outcomes is superior to the uncontested layup. The other 2 are worse. And, given the score and the clock, that was a risk he did not have to take, no matter how improbable the latter 2 outcomes were

disagree completely. Manu knew he was giving a HARD FOUL. there are no AND 1s with a hard foul. It was a clearly controlled hard foul. Tony Allen pulled the Flagrant ouf of thin air and the refs ate it up.

[ShoogarBear]

I thought TD's dumb tip attempt on Tony's missed layup was worse. TD could have secured an easy RB and ran the clock.

Oh, yeah. I was furious after that one. Called TD some things of which I am ashamed.

[InRareForm]

Was a good play by Manu. 90% of the time that just gets called for a personal foul and he shoots his Free Throws.

[Darius McCrary]

I thought it was a good foul at the time, and thought it was a good hard playoff foul which Allen sold.

The end result was vintage Manu, however.

[InRareForm]

The foul by Bonner to ZBO was much more of a dumbass foul tbh...

[MannyIsGod]

Should have never gotten to the point where this play mattered anyway, tbh.

I'll definitely agree with that. Plenty of blame to go around.

[2centsworth]

the spurs execution down the stretch was shitty. plenty of dumb plays

[hater]

you know it's a bad take when Magic JOhnson AND Bill SImmons agree with the OP :lmao

[timvp]

It was a bad foul by Manu. If you're Manu, you're options are:

1. Let him lay it in

2. Wrap him up -- which at most allows an and-1.

3. Foul him hard where you don't risk the and-1 but you risk a flagrant.

The Spurs were up four so either of the first two options were far superior. The third option is the only one that can end up tying the game.

I mean, obviously Allen flopped ... but you pull someone down with force out of the air and they land awkwardly ... that's going to be called a flagrant a lot of the time.

This wasn't Dirk 2006 dumb but it was pretty far up there on the bad decision scale. Rewinding further, the one thing he couldn't do in that possession was turn the ball over to give the Grizzlies a fast break -- anything else and the game doesn't go to overtime.....

[Warlord23]

disagree completely. Manu knew he was giving a HARD FOUL. there are no AND 1s with a hard foul. It was a clearly controlled hard foul. Tony Allen pulled the Flagrant ouf of thin air and the refs ate it up.

You say that with the benefit of hindsight. What if Allen actually hit his head when he went to the floor? There are a lot of plays which are called flagrant not just based on intent but based on the impact to the player. Also, regarding the and-1, Manu pulled down on Allen's left arm only. Allen could have flipped the ball up with his right and made an improbable shot for the and-1. Even if it's a 1% probability, why take the risk?

[letmk]

disagree completely. Manu knew he was giving a HARD FOUL. there are no AND 1s with a hard foul. It was a clearly controlled hard foul. Tony Allen pulled the Flagrant ouf of thin air and the refs ate it up.

I disagree with you completely. Even if you only watch ESPN highlights, you'd see many players making that shot by switching hands. It's not like Manu was in front of Allen and tried to block the shot. Allen was in a full movement to an open basket.

[MannyIsGod]

disagree completely. Manu knew he was giving a HARD FOUL. there are no AND 1s with a hard foul. It was a clearly controlled hard foul. Tony Allen pulled the Flagrant ouf of thin air and the refs ate it up.

Yup no And - 1s with those fouls. You know what do get called with those fouls though? Take one guess.

[hater]

I disagree with you completely. Even if you only watch ESPN highlights, you'd see many players making that shot by switching hands. It's not like Manu was in front of Allen and tried to block the shot. Allen was in a full movement to an open basket.

It's not like Manu was chasing after Allen. He was right next to him and all he did is extend his arm. I don't think Manu even jumped. He did not grab his collar or head, he grabbed his arm. Legit hard foul by all aspects. It's on video

[Bill_Brasky]

Manu barely fucking grabbed him, it's actually pretty laughable that it was STILL a flagrant after the review, i mean what's the point of looking at it if you're still gonna get the call wrong.

[hater]

Yup no And - 1s with those fouls. You know what do get called with those fouls though? Take one guess.

You seriously going to tell me if Tony Allen had not acted like that it would have been a flagrant? Seriously? When is the last time someone sold a flagrant like that? take one guess.

[Darius McCrary]

Manu is like a bean sprout, just trying to grow and thrive....he didn't know any better..

[timvp]

Tbh, that's a flagrant foul 100% of the time during the regular season. The only reason why it maybe shouldn't have been a flagrant is because it was the playoffs.

And Allen's drama queening was so bad that it actually hurt his flagrant foul case. If he just lays there, it would have looked more like a flagrant foul :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Matt Bonner in the game with under a minute left, and it's Manu's fault. :lol

[SA210]

MiG thinks Manu's to blame for 2006 when Rasho and Nazr were benched for the entire fucking series and he'd just hit a three to put the Spurs ahead. Reference to "will he ever learn" about two fouls that are seven years apart.

:tu

:lol at the Manu pile on this whole Playoffs. #20 will shut the doubters up.

[lefty]

Mannydempsey getting bombarbed in this thread

[Capt Bringdown]

Always a story to tell, always someone else's fault with these Manu fanbois.
It was a irredeemably moronic play.

[hater]

oh yeah and Matt BOnner's foul on Latarian was 10x more stupid

[SpurSpurSpurs]

Every Manu haters posted here should GTFO of this forum. We expect a hard foul during Conference finals game... and Manu delivered. It was the right thing to do until an actor named Tony Allen performed on the court and the refs applauded. Fuck that call! Fuck every hater that thinks that was not a good foul to give!

[2centsworth]

Tbh, that's a flagrant foul 100% of the time during the regular season. The only reason why it maybe shouldn't have been a flagrant is because it was the playoffs.

And Allen's drama queening was so bad that it actually hurt his flagrant foul case. If he just lays there, it would have looked more like a flagrant foul :lol

right, that's why the league routinely upgrades fouls after the fact.

[hater]

:lmao we just won a great game and spursfan pissed

imagine if Duncan had not saved us in OT :lmao

[therealtruth]

Tbh, that flagrant foul call was karma for the third foul on Conley where he didn't touch Neal. The refs always make up for bad calls. I was wondering how they were going to do that.

[roycrikside]

It was a bad foul by Manu. If you're Manu, you're options are:

1. Let him lay it in

2. Wrap him up -- which at most allows an and-1.

3. Foul him hard where you don't risk the and-1 but you risk a flagrant.

The Spurs were up four so either of the first two options were far superior. The third option is the only one that can end up tying the game.

I mean, obviously Allen flopped ... but you pull someone down with force out of the air and they land awkwardly ... that's going to be called a flagrant a lot of the time.

This wasn't Dirk 2006 dumb but it was pretty far up there on the bad decision scale. Rewinding further, the one thing he couldn't do in that possession was turn the ball over to give the Grizzlies a fast break -- anything else and the game doesn't go to overtime.....

That was Bonner's fault, not Manu's. He was dicking around on the possession, doing nothing and then hot-potatoed the ball to Manu with like 2 seconds on the shot clock 35 feet from the basket like "Here, do something."

[ShoogarBear]

Every Manu haters posted here should GTFO of this forum.

http://www.stl-illustrator.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/jean-probert/bossy-says-avatar.png

[tuncaboylu]

If Spurs weren't up 4 but 2, refs were not going to give it a flagrant.

They want a close game, a game winner, a buzzer beater or an OT at worst.

It's all related with:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214743&p=6582801#post6582801
(BREAKING NEWS: NBA Has Lowest Rated Conference Final Opener Since 2007 in Spurs/Grizz)

[hater]

Tbh, that's a flagrant foul 100% of the time during the regular season.

no it's not

[therealtruth]

It was a bad foul by Manu. If you're Manu, you're options are:

1. Let him lay it in

2. Wrap him up -- which at most allows an and-1.

3. Foul him hard where you don't risk the and-1 but you risk a flagrant.

The Spurs were up four so either of the first two options were far superior. The third option is the only one that can end up tying the game.

I mean, obviously Allen flopped ... but you pull someone down with force out of the air and they land awkwardly ... that's going to be called a flagrant a lot of the time.

This wasn't Dirk 2006 dumb but it was pretty far up there on the bad decision scale. Rewinding further, the one thing he couldn't do in that possession was turn the ball over to give the Grizzlies a fast break -- anything else and the game doesn't go to overtime.....

The obvious option would have been for Green to have pinned the ball to the backboard if Pop had kept him in the game.

[2centsworth]

That was Bonner's fault, not Manu's. He was dicking around on the possession, doing nothing and then hot-potatoed the ball to Manu with like 2 seconds on the shot clock 35 feet from the basket like "Here, do something."
totally. Hindsight he should of just held the ball and turned it over out of bounds lol

[DAF86]

It was a bad foul by Manu. If you're Manu, you're options are:

1. Let him lay it in

2. Wrap him up -- which at most allows an and-1.

3. Foul him hard where you don't risk the and-1 but you risk a flagrant.

The Spurs were up four so either of the first two options were far superior. The third option is the only one that can end up tying the game.

I mean, obviously Allen flopped ... but you pull someone down with force out of the air and they land awkwardly ... that's going to be called a flagrant a lot of the time.

This wasn't Dirk 2006 dumb but it was pretty far up there on the bad decision scale. Rewinding further, the one thing he couldn't do in that possession was turn the ball over to give the Grizzlies a fast break -- anything else and the game doesn't go to overtime.....

That's nice and all with a nice cool head and time to think about it but on that moment all I remember thinking was "foul him and don't let him get an and-1", that's what Manu did.

[Obstructed_View]

Tbh, that flagrant foul call was karma for the third foul on Conley where he didn't touch Neal. The refs always make up for bad calls. I was wondering how they were going to do that.

You mean the first 11 minutes of the 4th quarter weren't enough make-up to satisfy you?

[TheGoldStandard]

NBA will play damage control and Stern will call it a fair call.... Yup, no fine for Tony Allen I bet. Spurs played a lot of ISO ball but when they used pick n roll and attacked and dished they were successful. Refs tried to even the series up to legitimize all the love for Memphis and there "great defense"

[SA210]

You know Manu's foul was legit when Hater is defending him tbh. Stupid thread.

:lol

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

If baldspot had let him score nobody would be calling it a bad play after the game win or lose

[slick'81]

Horrible call !!if u want to get on manU
for the late turnover fine but the flagrant call was awful

[DAF86]

Tim just said in the press conference that Manu did the right thing and I don't think he was saying it just to not throw Manu on the fire.

[Bill_Brasky]

Hey guys, remember when Lance Stephenson tried to climb the ladder on Tyson Chandler in game 5 of Knicks/Pacers and Tyson shoved him out of the air in a total non basketball move and the refs didn't call a flagrant and Reggie Miller was like "good rim protection dawg"?

[Solid D]

Tim Duncan on the flagrant foul - "Yeah, it's such a weird play. I know it's a tough play for the officials. I think Tony just tried to sell it, more than anything...and it's, uh, but I guess the ruling is, if he's in a vulnerable position and they feel that it's excessive, then it's a flagrant. But, Manu did the right thing and tried to prevent the layup and you just try to let the referees call what they have to call."

[MannyIsGod]

Matt Bonner in the game with under a minute left, and it's Manu's fault. :lol

Never said it was Manu's fault alone. A lot of people fucked up. Manu's idiocy is one of the few where an active decision was made to do something really stupid, though.

[SpurSpurSpurs]

Tim Duncan on the flagrant foul - "Yeah, it's such a weird play. I know it's a tough play for the officials. I think Tony just tried to sell it, more than anything...and it's, uh, but I guess the ruling is, if he's in a vulnerable position and they feel that it's excessive, then it's a flagrant. But, Manu did the right thing and tried to prevent the layup and you just try to let the referees call what they have to call."

Manu haters knows best. Timmy is just covering Manu...

[Keepin' it real]

I wonder what Pop's cooking for Manu for breakfast tomorrow?

[crc21209]

Yeah I can't be mad at Manu for that foul. That was just a hard playoff foul that the dumbass referees for some reason saw it as a flagrant. Should he have given up the layup? Maybe. But Tony Allen isnt exactly a great FT shooter so it was the right play to try and make him earn the points at the line..

[hater]

Lets review. Duncan thinks it was a good play. Simmons and Magic disagree.

[timvp]

That's nice and all with a nice cool head and time to think about it but on that moment all I remember thinking was "foul him and don't let him get an and-1", that's what Manu did.

Manu's a smart guy and has played basketball a long time. Being up four and realizing that the only thing you can't afford is a flagrant foul shouldn't take too long to mentally calculate, tbh.

[z0sa]

Tim agrees it was the right play...

[ShoogarBear]

When is Manny going to learn that you can't fucking curse in the thread title?

[ElNono]

you pull someone down with force out of the air and they land awkwardly

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2659873/tonyflop_medium.gif

1) He didn't pull him down...he grab him in the arm, then let go.
2) Allen falls down with both hands normally.
3) Once on the floor he grabs his head, which at no point hit the floor.

[SA210]

Matt Bonner in the game with under a minute left, and it's Manu's fault. :lol


Exactly. Bonner ball is what made overtime possible, period.

[hater]

So its come down to the best power forward ever's opinion. Vs. A guy who thought it was a good idea to not use condoms :lol

[ElNono]

BTW, props to Allen for pulling a vintage Manu... I'm just glad it didn't work out for them in the end.

[Budkin]

It was a stupid play. But at least we won this time.

[Darius McCrary]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2659873/tonyflop_medium.gif

1) He didn't pull him down...he grab him in the arm, then let go.
2) Allen falls down with both hands normally.
3) Once on the floor he grabs his head, which at no point hit the floor.

Actually now that I know where you stand, I change my stance, Manu was very dumb to commit that foul.

[RD2191]

It was a stupid fukin foul, you don't grap a guy by one arm while he's going up in the air. Of course Allen was going to sell it, and Manu of all people should know that.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah DAF, I'm shocked Tim didn't throw Manu under the bus and call it a dumb play. Shocked.

[2centsworth]

Manu's a smart guy and has played basketball a long time. Being up four and realizing that the only thing you can't afford is a flagrant foul shouldn't take too long to mentally calculate, tbh.

that's why he didn't smack him upside the head but instead grabbed his arm, which I've seen a million times without a flagrant being called. Shit I've seen people lose teeth an no flagrant called. The league may be more pussified than I'm aware.

[ShoogarBear]

BTW, props to Allen for pulling a vintage Manu... I'm just glad it didn't work out for them in the end.

Manu's a HoF flopper, but I can't imagine him ever faking a head injury.

[MannyIsGod]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2659873/tonyflop_medium.gif

1) He didn't pull him down...he grab him in the arm, then let go.
2) Allen falls down with both hands normally.
3) Once on the floor he grabs his head, which at no point hit the floor.

You're really going to look at that and say Manu didn't pull him down? Really?

[Trainwreck2100]

Manu got outflopped, I really hope this is the thing that gets him back in the game.

[timvp]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2659873/tonyflop_medium.gif

1) He didn't pull him down...he grab him in the arm, then let go. Letting go was the mistake. Manu has to wrap him up there -- or not foul him.


2) Allen falls down with both hands normally.He fell head first. That's a flagrant 100 out of 100 times in the regular season, tbh.


3) Once on the floor he grabs his head, which at no point hit the floor.True, that was bad acting but that only hurt his case. You pull someone out of the air and make them land head-before-body and you're getting a flagrant.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW you're all welcome for me starting a thread that pulled in more old school folks than greys.

Shoog I thought about it before I hit submit. But I was too fired up. Honestly thought the Spurs were going to be too gassed to win in OT. Turns out Memphis was even more tired.

[MannyIsGod]

I mean if we have to put up with Manu 2006 decisions can we at least get some Manu 2006 game too? At least he made Splitter look good on offense tonight.

[ElNono]

You're really going to look at that and say Manu didn't pull him down? Really?

This is a pull down:

Ihv-XVnJ-zA

ie: not letting the player go up...

BTW, that was called a flagrant too... so maybe wrapping him up wouldn't have mattered either... and FWIW, watching the replay, I don't think Manu was close enough to wrap him...

[roycrikside]

Manu's a smart guy and has played basketball a long time. Being up four and realizing that the only thing you can't afford is a flagrant foul shouldn't take too long to mentally calculate, tbh.

Grabbing a guy's arm, the same arm where he was holding the ball mind you, is not a flagrant. His hand was literally eight inches from the ball. You're being an idiot. It was a terrible fucking call and it was a terrible fucking job the refs to look at it on replay and still not change it. Once they saw that Allen's head didn't come close to touching the floor they should've changed the call. Just completely ridiculous.

Every coach in the league would tell their guy to just give a hard playoff foul in that spot and make their guy hit two free throws. It was absolutely the right play. If he swung down excessively at the guy's head where it would've been an obvious flagrant that would've been a bad play. If he just lightly brushed him to give up an and-1 Gary Neal style, that would've been a bad play. What Manu did was the right thing, with a BS result.

What the hell do you know anyway, Mr. "Grizzlies should be overwhelming favorites?"

[Solid D]

I was actually more irritated with Timmy 2 possessions earlier. With 59 seconds remaining protecting a 7 point lead, Timmy tried to tip in a rebound instead of just pulling down the rebound and running more clock with a fresh 24. Timmy just wasn't thinking.

[SA210]

Even the biggest Spurs haters ever, ESPN saying it wasn't a flagrant foul :lol

[2centsworth]

I mean if we have to put up with Manu 2006 decisions can we at least get some Manu 2006 game too? At least he made Splitter look good on offense tonight.

amen to getting some of those games from him. Dude looks almost washed-up

[2centsworth]

I was actually more irritated with Timmy 2 possessions earlier. With 59 seconds remaining protecting a 7 point lead, Timmy tried to tip in a rebound instead of just pulling down the rebound and running more clock with a fresh 24. Timmy just wasn't thinking.

biggest bonehead move IMO.

[ElNono]

He fell head first. That's a flagrant 100 out of 100 times in the regular season, tbh.

True, that was bad acting but that only hurt his case. You pull someone out of the air and make them land head-before-body and you're getting a flagrant.

He fell with both of his hands down, normally, like every human being reacts when you fall. If Manu wouldn't have let go of the arm, then it would definitely a problem.

LJ, tell me this though: If Manu simply lets Allen get an easy layup at that point, how do you think Pop reacts?

[SouthernFried]

Manu could screw up every game from here on out...and he would still be one of the greatest Spurs ever.

Manu has earned total respect for the rest of his life from Spurs fans...even if he does nothing else good. Same goes for Timmy or Tony.

Those three don't have anything to prove to anyone. If they win this year...it's for them. Cuz they don't need to do it for me.

They especially don't have anything to prove to posers like this OP.

[ElNono]

Another angle:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2659959/tonypaaain_medium.gif

[RD2191]

It was a fukin flagrant so what the fuk ever. Manu shit the fukin bed. Who cares. At least we won.

[2centsworth]

Manu could screw up every game from here on out...and he would still be one of the greatest Spurs ever.

Manu has earned total respect for the rest of his life from Spurs fans...even if he does nothing else good. Same goes for Timmy or Tony.

Those three don't have anything to prove to anyone. If they win this year...it's for them. Cuz they don't need to do it for me.

They especially don't have anything to prove to posers like this OP.

No bigger complement than to always expect great play from these guys. That's what makes them great.

[SA210]

Whatever, anyway, good foul by Manu. Game is tight to begin with bc Pop wanted to play Bonner ball and piss away the lead. I'll take Duncan's word on Manu.

[timvp]

Grabbing a guy's arm, the same arm where he was holding the ball mind you, is not a flagrant.

Obviously he risked a flagrant -- considering he actually got called for a flagrant. Again, the play is to either not foul him or wrap him up to where there's no chance at a flagrant. You don't even give the refs an opportunity for a judgement call.

But, yeah, you make a guy land head-before-body and you get called for a flagrant nearly 100% of the time. I'd like to see an example of that not being called a flagrant.

[RD2191]

Grabbing a guy's arm, the same arm where he was holding the ball mind you, is not a flagrant. His hand was literally eight inches from the ball. You're being an idiot. It was a terrible fucking call and it was a terrible fucking job the refs to look at it on replay and still not change it. Once they saw that Allen's head didn't come close to touching the floor they should've changed the call. Just completely ridiculous.

Every coach in the league would tell their guy to just give a hard playoff foul in that spot and make their guy hit two free throws. It was absolutely the right play. If he swung down excessively at the guy's head where it would've been an obvious flagrant that would've been a bad play. If he just lightly brushed him to give up an and-1 Gary Neal style, that would've been a bad play. What Manu did was the right thing, with a BS result.

What the hell do you know anyway, Mr. "Grizzlies should be overwhelming favorites?"
Tf outta here fagget, trying to smack talk timvp.

[lefty]

You're really going to look at that and say Manu didn't pull him down? Really?
He did, but it was just good foul


They called a flagrant for the way faggot fell, not for the foul itself TBH

[timvp]

LJ, tell me this though: If Manu simply lets Allen get an easy layup at that point, how do you think Pop reacts?

Pop commends Manu for the smart decision and then draws up a play to get the ball into the hands of a good free throw shooter.

[DAF86]

The fact that so many people are confronting over this (and trully there seems to be a lot more folks that think it was the right move) says it all, imho. This play wasn't as that Dirk foul or that attempted three in OT against the Warriors in game 1 of the last round.

[ElNono]

Pop commends Manu for the smart decision and then draws up a play to get the ball into the hands of a good free throw shooter.

I'm gonna disagree. IMO, Pop goes on a tirade for giving up an easy layup when you could've sent him to the line.

[DAF86]

Tf outta here fagget, trying to smack talk timvp.

Oh noes, no timvp. :cry

[Mugen]

man, i never thought I'd see a season where timvp was so off in all his takes.

:lol if that's Allen fouling Manu in Memphis, there's no fucking way that's called a flagrant.

[DPG21920]

I would not be at all surprised if Allen is fined for flopping and the flagrant is downgraded.

[timvp]

I'm gonna disagree. IMO, Pop goes on a tirade for giving up an easy layup when you could've sent him to the line.

Giving up an open layup there is fine. It's not like he's a terrible free throw shooter.

Manu gives up the layup, the Spurs are up two with ~26 seconds to go, Grizzlies are forced to foul. Nothing to be mad about, tbh.

[DJR210]

For those saying Manu did the right thing by going for the foul, I agree, but at the same time it looks like most of you are giving Manu a pass on the mistake that led to Allen getting a clear path to a layup.. Manu has made some HUGE mistakes this postseason, and a good amount of them have been down the stretch.

[DJR210]

I would not be at all surprised if Allen is fined for flopping and the flagrant is downgraded.

Not sure this classifies as a flop though..

[timvp]

:lol if that's Allen fouling Manu in Memphis, there's no fucking way that's called a flagrant.

If Manu gets fouled like that he does a legitimately great flop and gets Allen served up with a flagrant 2 ejection. Manu maybe turns that into a suspension,tbh. Allen's flop was so terrible he almost cost himself a flagrant :lmao

[ShoogarBear]

Not sure this classifies as a flop though..

Not sure what the exact wording of the rule is, but I've got to think that embellishing a play to make it look like you were seriously injured at least falls within the spirit of the rule.

[Robz4000]

Flop of the year tbh. Manu made the right call, but went about it wrong. Needed to wrap his ass up and keep the ball from going in. Make him hit FT, then live with being up 2 with 26 seconds to go and the ball. Luckily it didn't cost the Spurs the game and they can learn from it. These 3 days of rest are going to be huge.

[DPG21920]

Of the two things I said, I am much more confident in the fine for a flop part than the downgrade of the flagrant.

[ElNono]

Giving up an open layup there is fine. It's not like he's a terrible free throw shooter.

I'll agree to disagree. You just don't give up easy layups at the end of games in the playoffs unless you have a big lead. IMO, fouling was the right play, and that's what he did (despite Allen acting, which has nothing to do with Gino).

[Mugen]

If Manu gets fouled like that he does a legitimately great flop and gets Allen served up with a flagrant 2 ejection. Manu maybe turns that into a suspension,tbh. Allen's flop was so terrible he almost cost himself a flagrant :lmao

:lol After they look at the replay, they'd see Manu's flop and give em the regular 2 FTs tbh, just like what they should have done after Manu's foul.

[DJR210]

Not sure what the exact wording of the rule is, but I've got to think that embellishing a play to make it look like you were seriously injured at least falls within the spirit of the rule.

We'll see what they decide. I'm just thinking that because this is more of an acting job after the fact and not the typical flop the rule was made for, the league instead issues a statement with a subliminal warning in it for the players.

[MannyIsGod]

Manu could screw up every game from here on out...and he would still be one of the greatest Spurs ever.

Manu has earned total respect for the rest of his life from Spurs fans...even if he does nothing else good. Same goes for Timmy or Tony.

Those three don't have anything to prove to anyone. If they win this year...it's for them. Cuz they don't need to do it for me.

They especially don't have anything to prove to posers like this OP.

LOL what am I posing as?

[Solid D]

If that play happens in Chris Webber's back yard, you just play on. :smokin

[ElNono]

For those saying Manu did the right thing by going for the foul, I agree, but at the same time it looks like most of you are giving Manu a pass on the mistake that led to Allen getting a clear path to a layup.. Manu has made some HUGE mistakes this postseason, and a good amount of them have been down the stretch.

It was a botched play after Tony penetrated and tossed a high arching lob to Bonner, who immediately froze and handed it to Manu. I have no problem with the Manu critique when he actually fucks up (see 3 pointer with 20 secs left in the shot clock against GSW). But that play was fucked way before the turnover. Doesn't help when you have a deer-in-the-headlights Bonner fucking lost and not even setting a screen.

[timvp]

:lol After they look at the replay, they'd see Manu's flop and give em the regular 2 FTs tbh, just like what they should have done after Manu's foul.

No because Manu is such a bad azz that he would have landed on his face just to ensure the flagrant. He wouldn't have let his arms brace his fall.

[DPG21920]

What I don't get is why people get so fixated on one call. I mean, I get the point of the OP, but in general, people act like that play was the issue. There were a ton of issues in that fourth quarter that put them in that position.

[2centsworth]

If that play happens in Chris Webber's back yard, you just play on. :smokin

takes a table leg through the heart and dying.
-Ron Artest

[ElNono]

No because Manu is such a bad azz that he would have landed on his face just to ensure the flagrant. He wouldn't have let his arms brace his fall.

With that nose, I'll be concerned about the floor, tbh...

[Darius McCrary]

Oh, there's so much to be mad about in that fourth quarter it's hard for me to get worked up about this one play. (As opposed to 2006, which was colossally stupid.)

I think I'm gonna like ShoogarBear's posts. Oh Wait, he only posts once per month :(\

[ElNono]

What I don't get is why people get so fixated on one call. I mean, I get the point of the OP, but in general, people act like that play was the issue. There were a ton of issues in that fourth quarter that put them in that position.

Exactly... we stopped moving the ball, and I thought generally we ran out of gas...

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Tell me again about how much basketball smarts he has again. Please.

El Nono? you are one of the biggest idiots

When are you going to learn?

[DPG21920]

Also, not to hijack the thread, but is anyone else concerned with how often this team runs out of gas despite not playing a ton of minutes (especially compared to most other guys/teams in the playoffs)? I mean, that is scary as hell how they can be up huge in games, then just completely tank hard.

Yes, MEM is a phenomenal defense but damn. Even the players are saying they were exhausted.

[ElNono]

Also, not to hijack the thread, but is anyone else concerned with how often this team runs out of gas despite not playing a ton of minutes (especially compared to most other guys/teams in the playoffs)? I mean, that is scary as hell how they can be up huge in games, then just completely tank hard.

Yes, MEM is a phenomenal defense but damn. Even the players are saying they were exhausted.

I could see Kawhi being tired because of the knee issues, but I just don't see why Danny couldn't play more minutes... especially when Neal is just meh... same with Splitter/Diaw...

[timvp]

Also, not to hijack the thread, but is anyone else concerned with how often this team runs out of gas despite not playing a ton of minutes (especially compared to most other guys/teams in the playoffs)? I mean, that is scary as hell how they can be up huge in games, then just completely tank hard.

Yes, MEM is a phenomenal defense but damn. Even the players are saying they were exhausted.

That's what happens when your entire team is old, injured or both old and injured.

[midnightpulp]

Manu makes a foul that directly leads to the Spurs going in OT. If Manu doesn't foul - no OT. Manu apologists call it the right play.

:tu

Agree with Manny here.

[DJR210]

It was a botched play after Tony penetrated and tossed a high arching lob to Bonner, who immediately froze and handed it to Manu. I have no problem with the Manu critique when he actually fucks up (see 3 pointer with 20 secs left in the shot clock against GSW). But that play was fucked way before the turnover. Doesn't help when you have a deer-in-the-headlights Bonner fucking lost and not even setting a screen.

I need to go back and watch that play a few more times..I would just think a playoff veteran of Manu's caliber would have the crunch time awareness to put up a shot, and at least give the guys a chance to get a rebound. IIRC he tried to catch the ball and go into his next move which led to the steal, instead of a quick catch and shoot.

[DPG21920]

That's what happens when your entire team is old, injured or both old and injured.

Really? Kobe is old, and doesn't run out of gas like that usually. And that is with him playing tons of minutes. Spurs minutes are not only managed heavily in the regular season, but in the playoffs too. It's not at all surprising that they can't play an entire game in the playoffs with pretty average minutes and not be exhausted?

I get they are older and a little banged up, but so are other teams. It's scary as hell. They've been older for a while now, but I don't remember it being this drastic.

[ElNono]

I need to go back and watch that play a few more times..I would just think a playoff veteran of Manu's caliber would have the crunch time awareness to put up a shot, and at least give the guys a chance to get a rebound. IIRC he tried to catch the ball and go into his next move which led to the steal, instead of a quick catch and shoot.

He actually got trapped by both Allen and whoever was on Bonner, and he tried to pass to Matty when he noticed both of the guys jumping him. IIRC, Allen blocked the pass. While you're looking at the play, take a look at Bonner. He was supposed to at least set a screen, not allow his man to jump Manu. I'm not going to tell you Manu didn't throw a poor pass, but the entire awareness and execution on that play was incredibly bad.

[midnightpulp]

Pop commends Manu for the smart decision and then draws up a play to get the ball into the hands of a good free throw shooter.

:tu

[timvp]

It was a botched play after Tony penetrated and tossed a high arching lob to Bonner, who immediately froze and handed it to Manu.

Looking at the replay, Manu caught the ball with 3.8 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Bonner didn't have a shot so it was the right move to give it to Manu. Manu catches the ball, has TP open in the corner but then dribbles twice and then .... I'm not even sure what happened -- he just coughed it up right into a 2-on-0 break. A Manu shot or just holding the ball for a shot clock violation would have been better. But I don't blame Manu for that since it was obviously an accident.

The mental mistake of committing at the very least a borderline flagrant foul is blame-worthy though, IMO.

[ElNono]

Really? Kobe is old, and doesn't run out of gas like that usually. And that is with him playing tons of minutes. Spurs minutes are not only managed heavily in the regular season, but in the playoffs too. It's not at all surprising that they can't play an entire game in the playoffs with pretty average minutes and not be exhausted?

I get they are older and a little banged up, but so are other teams. It's scary as hell. They've been older for a while now, but I don't remember it being this drastic.

I've always thought that stamina is a big factor. I think Pop overdoes the resting in some cases. I understand resting Tony, Manu, Tim... the old fellas. But guys like Green or Splitter should be able to play more minutes, but I get the impression that they cannot because they haven't gotten their minutes ramped up during the regular season, and whenever you actually do go over their regular time, they get gassed like crazy. Just my 2c.

[ShoogarBear]

He actually got trapped by both Allen and whoever was on Bonner, and he tried to pass to Matty when he noticed both of the guys jumping him. IIRC, Allen blocked the pass. While you're looking at the play, take a look at Bonner. He was supposed to at least set a screen, not allow his man to jump Manu. I'm not going to tell you Manu didn't throw a poor pass, but the entire awareness and execution on that play was incredibly bad.

No question that Manu could have tried something other than what he did, which ended up being the worst possible results from beginning to end.

But Bonner was the guy who lit the fuse and then shoved the dynamite down his pants.

[timvp]

Really? Kobe is old, and doesn't run out of gas like that usually.True his Achilles just explodes.


They've been older for a while now, but I don't remember it being this drastic.They're older now than the point in time you're comparing it to, tbh.

[ElNono]

Looking at the replay, Manu caught the ball with 3.8 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Bonner didn't have a shot so it was the right move to give it to Manu. Manu catches the ball, has TP open in the corner but then dribbles twice and then .... I'm not even sure what happened -- he just coughed it up right into a 2-on-0 break. A Manu shot or just holding the ball for a shot clock violation would have been better. But I don't blame Manu for that since it was obviously an accident.

I remember the behind-the-Spurs-basket camera, he tries to pass it over the two Memphis guys to Bonner, who's just looking at Manu, and I think it's Allen that blocks the shot and off they go. It was definitely a botched play, clock running out, and basically "here Manu, you deal with the hot potato".

[DPG21920]

Obvious Kobe shot. Dude has never been injured and has been aging for a while, yet could play max minutes without getting gassed.

Maybe it's just me, but while having an older team certainly makes sense, it still seems odd that they get so gassed to the point they literally can't do anything despite having the most managed minutes in the history of the game.

[ElNono]

Kobe is a physical freak though... look at how guys like McGrady have aged... some players just look supernatural out there...

[letmk]

Looking at the replay, Manu caught the ball with 3.8 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Bonner didn't have a shot so it was the right move to give it to Manu. Manu catches the ball, has TP open in the corner but then dribbles twice and then .... I'm not even sure what happened -- he just coughed it up right into a 2-on-0 break. A Manu shot or just holding the ball for a shot clock violation would have been better. But I don't blame Manu for that since it was obviously an accident.

The mental mistake of committing at the very least a borderline flagrant foul is blame-worthy though, IMO.

This. If Manu fouled right at the spot he lost the ball, it's more forgivable as he might just act by instinct. But when he chased down the court, he had the time to think it through.

[timvp]

I remember the behind-the-Spurs-basket camera, he tries to pass it over the two Memphis guys to Bonner, who's just looking at Manu, and I think it's Allen that blocks the shot and off they go.

That's not what happened, though. Watch it again. It looks like Manu is going up for a shot (which is the right move) and the ball just slips out of his hands. There's no deflection by Allen. It slips out, Grizzlies get it, pass it to Allen and Manu fouls him hard.

[ElNono]

That's not what happened, though. Watch it again. It looks like Manu is going up for a shot (which is the right move) and the ball just slips out of his hands. There's no deflection by Allen. It slips out, Grizzlies get it, pass it to Allen and Manu fouls him hard.

I'll take your word for it. Game's too fresh for DVR right now... :lol

[ElNono]

This. If Manu fouled right at the spot he lost the ball, it's more forgivable as he might just act by instinct. But when he chased down the court, he had the time to think it through.

That would be a clear path foul, and it's the same as flagrant.

[DJR210]

@ ElNono


I'm not even sure what happened -- he just coughed it up right into a 2-on-0 break. A Manu shot or just holding the ball for a shot clock violation would have been better.

This is basically what I was referring to. Either way I'm so fed up with Manu's 30% shooting, poor shot selection, poor FT shooting, and timely errors down the stretch as the icing on the cake. I think he should really stop shooting altogether and focus on creating shots for others. If the layup is there, take it.

We don't even need much of a defensive contribution from him against these guys.

[letmk]

That would be a clear path foul, and it's the same as flagrant.

I'm not saying the result would be better. All I'm saying is that Manu's behavior might be easier to 'forgive'.

[DPG21920]

Kobe is a physical freak though... look at how guys like McGrady have aged... some players just look supernatural out there...

Sure, but TP is not old. He doesn't look injured when he's shredding dudes through the first 7 quarters either. Are the injuries so bad he gets gassed like that? I guess it's just me, but that is pretty damn alarming.

[letmk]

Sure, but TP is not old. He doesn't look injured when he's shredding dudes through the first 7 quarters either. Are the injuries so bad he gets gassed like that? I guess it's just me, but that is pretty damn alarming.

I think his 3-pointer by Timmy's assist might give him some false hope. I've never seen Tony take 4 3-pointer attempts, and those shots are not last second heaves.

[therealtruth]

Manu was definitely shooting it otherwise they would have had a shot clock violation.

[Splits]

Is this a flagrant? Is it Gino?

http://gifs.gifbin.com/062010/1275905213_refree-blocks-kid.gif

[letmk]

One more thing to add. At least to me, I don't think Manu played a very bad game. With Tony handling the ball with so many shot attempts and assists, Manu was just not used much in this game. Overall, he played an otherwise forgettable game with one unnecessary, unforgettable foul.

[timvp]

Sure, but TP is not old. He doesn't look injured when he's shredding dudes through the first 7 quarters either. Are the injuries so bad he gets gassed like that? I guess it's just me, but that is pretty damn alarming.

1. TP is old for a point guard who relies on speed. Comparable players were declining at his age.

2. Yes, his fatigue is obviously at least partly injury related.

3. It's alarming for everyone. But it's the hand that was dealt. The Spurs having to survive age/fatigue/injury is a given with this squad.

[ElNono]

@ ElNono

This is basically what I was referring to. Either way I'm so fed up with Manu's 30% shooting, poor shot selection, poor FT shooting, and timely errors down the stretch as the icing on the cake. I think he should really stop shooting altogether and focus on creating shots for others. If the layup is there, take it.

We don't even need much of a defensive contribution from him against these guys.

Manu has averaged only 10 shots a game this entire postseason... tonight he took only 6 and made half of them (50%)... the Spurs haven't needed him to score much so far (thanks to Kawhi and Green), and he's been happy to contribute with creating plays and playing solid defense.

AFAIK, the only brainfart he had so far this playoffs was the ill advised 3 pointer... more than made up with the gamewinner, a game we had no business winning.

I share the frustration about the shooting slump and the free throws, but he's far from the only one having a shaky pulse at the line... you have to look no further than tonight's game in the clutch.

Like it or not, he's a very important cog in the system and opens up the game for a lot of guys.

[DJR210]

the only brainfart he had so far this playoffs was the ill advised 3 pointer...

You are crazy if you think Manu has made only one mistake the entire playoffs. I wish I had a log of the mistakes he's made in the Playoffs to share with you at this point. He has made several bad passes, fumbled balls, and generally done things these Playoffs that have been shocking IMO. I think the ill-advised three is the only one that is really sticking out in most people's heads.

[MannyIsGod]

Manu played fairly well for the most part tonight. He was very good finding others on PnRs. Its just stupid late game fouls that have a huge effect on a game that I have issue with.

[letmk]

Manu has averaged only 10 shots a game this entire postseason... tonight he took only 6 and made half of them (50%)... the Spurs haven't needed him to score much so far (thanks to Kawhi and Green), and he's been happy to contribute with creating plays and playing solid defense.

AFAIK, the only brainfart he had so far this playoffs was the ill advised 3 pointer... more than made up with the gamewinner, a game we had no business winning.

I share the frustration about the shooting slump and the free throws, but he's far from the only one having a shaky pulse at the line... you have to look no further than tonight's game in the clutch.

Like it or not, he's a very important cog in the system and opens up the game for a lot of guys.

This. Like I said in the above, Manu did not play a bad game before that foul. That he can recognize Kawhi/Danny are more efficient and is willing to defer to them despite himself being a HOF deserves a B+ by itself.

TBH, unless he can regain his shooting touch, this is a perfect type of game I'd like to expect from him.

[Darius McCrary]

Also, not to hijack the thread, but is anyone else concerned with how often this team runs out of gas despite not playing a ton of minutes (especially compared to most other guys/teams in the playoffs)? I mean, that is scary as hell how they can be up huge in games, then just completely tank hard.

Yes, MEM is a phenomenal defense but damn. Even the players are saying they were exhausted.
Pop went out of his way not to give Parker a breather in the 2nd half. Bad coaching in that regard. Duncan was strong and eneregetic when he renentered the game. Manu was just bad Manu tonight.

[Baseline]

Idiotic turnover by Manu in the first place. Super careless with the ball when there's 27 seconds left and a 4-point lead. Inexcusable. He knew he made a bonehead turnover, and tried too hard to make up for it. I had flashbacks of the infamous foul on Dirk's layup, and I'm sure 100% of Spurs fan did as well. I agree - of all people, Manu should know better.

[ElNono]

You are crazy if you think Manu has made only one mistake the entire playoffs. I wish I had a log of the mistakes he's made in the Playoffs to share with you at this point. He has made several bad passes, fumbled balls, and generally done things these Playoffs that have been shocking IMO.

I'm talking glaringly bad decision that could change the outcome of a game.

Mistakes in general happen to every player all the time. Tonight was a clear case of that: Tony forcing stuff when he was gassed, TD not picking up a board and going with a dumb tip-in. It's a game of mistakes, as Pop likes to say.

As bad you think Manu has been, per 36 with more than 100 mins played, he's only averaging 3.1 TOs (second is TP is at 2.1), while averaging a team best 7.8 APG (second is TP is at 6.6), he's third(!) in rebounding at 6.1 RPG, he's still the third highest scorer on this team despite his lack/poor shooting and he also leads the team in steals.

He can't play 36 mins consistently anymore, but he'll give you top notch production in 25...

[SenorSpur]

Idiotic turnover by Manu in the first place. Super careless with the ball when there's 27 seconds left and a 4-point lead. Inexcusable. He knew he made a bonehead turnover, and tried too hard to make up for it. I had flashbacks of the infamous foul on Dirk's layup, and I'm sure 100% of Spurs fan did as well. I agree - of all people, Manu should know better.


:tu

That idiotic play haunts me to this very day - and I hope it haunts him too.

[DJR210]

I'm talking glaringly bad decision that could change the outcome of a game. Sorry, but a series of smaller mistakes throughout the game will give the same outcome IMO. I seriously want you to play extra special attention to him next game, I'm gonna bump this thread with a breakdown of all of his plays good or bad and we'll resume this then.

[DJR210]

:tu

That idiotic play haunts me to this very day - and I hope it haunts him too.

Combined w/ this and .4, we should be looking a 7 god damn Championships this year tbh..

[ElNono]

Sorry, but a series of smaller mistakes throughout the game will give the same outcome IMO. I seriously want you to play extra special attention to him next game, I'm gonna bump this thread with a breakdown of all of his plays good or bad and we'll resume this then.

Tonight we had a 'series of smaller mistakes' by other players too. Do we need to bump this for everyone? Even Memphis screwed up majorly tonight in the clutch.

At least if you're going to tell me Manu stands out as a guy that consistently makes bad decisions, then the least I expect you to do is refute the numbers presented instead of simply pretend they weren't posted.

[DJR210]

Tonight we had a 'series of smaller mistakes' by other players too. Do we need to bump this for everyone? Even Memphis screwed up majorly tonight in the clutch.

At least if you're going to tell me Manu stands out as a guy that consistently makes bad decisions, then the least I expect you to do is refute the numbers presented instead of simply pretend they weren't posted.

Posting some stats doesn't automatically win you a debate. You know that the stat sheet is not the be all end all measuring stick, and that goes for positive or negative actions. And I am referring to series 1-3, not just tonight. Like I said, we'll resume this Saturday. Hopefully he will shut me up. Since you're a stand up guy don't want to inconvenience the board with a bump, I'll just post in whatever thread you're in at the time.

[ElNono]

Posting some stats doesn't win you a debate. You know that the stat sheet is not the be all end all, and that goes for positive or negative actions. And I am referring to the series 1-3, not just tonight. Like I said, we'll resume Saturday. Since you're a stand up guy don't want to inconvenience the board with a bump, I'll just post in whatever thread you're in at the time.

:lol what I posted were numbers for the entire playoffs (series 1-3)

That's reality. If you can't deal with it, can always go back to the xanax, tbh...

As far as I'm concerned, you can post your opinion about Manu anywhere you want, whenever you want. After all, everybody already does.

I'm not particularly concerned about Manu as long as he keeps producing at the rate he does and he help us win games. Ultimately, what matters is that the Spurs win, the rest is silly chatter.

[Mojazz]

Tell me again about how much basketball smarts he has again. Please.

El Nono?

Everyone commits mistakes... I bet you've been sucking Manu's nuts when he hits the game winning basket against warriors.

#Whataloser

[Sean Cagney]

:tu

That idiotic play haunts me to this very day - and I hope it haunts him too.
Obviously not since he makes a stupid TO there and makes that foul! It does not haunt him, he just plays and then does what he does. Good or Bad he will do it.

[DJR210]

:lol what I posted were numbers for the entire playoffs (series 1-3)

That's reality. If you can't deal with it, can always go back to the xanax, tbh...

As far as I'm concerned, you can post your opinion about Manu anywhere you want, whenever you want. After all, everybody already does.

I'm not particularly concerned about Manu as long as he keeps producing at the rate he does and he help us win games. Ultimately, what matters is that the Spurs win, the rest is silly chatter.


Great stats. Can you also post his FG and FT%? Just to get a more unbiased screenshot of his performance..

[spurraider21]

he made the right play. if you are going to foul, you have to damn well make sure they dont get an and-1. ref blew the call and handed memphis a gift

[Baseline]

Giving up an open layup there is fine. It's not like he's a terrible free throw shooter.

Manu gives up the layup, the Spurs are up two with ~26 seconds to go, Grizzlies are forced to foul. Nothing to be mad about, tbh.

Totally agree. Manu screwed up and turned the ball over near midcourt, giving them a fast break opportunity. So if you can't wrap the guy up befoe he goes airborne, then let him lay it in for god's sake. We're still up 2 if that happens.

But Manu actually made a typical rookie mistake, compounding the turnover with a foul...and double compounding it with a flagrant which gave them the ball.

I'd love to know the odds of one player making all those mistakes which add up to blowing a 4-point lead with the ball. And to make it even more ridiculous, Manu is outr best crunchtime foul shooter.

Frigging unbelievable.

[ElNono]

Great stats. Can you also post his FG and FT%? Just to get a more unbiased screenshot of his performance..

FGM/FGA: 3.8-9.8
FG%: .381

FTM-FTA: 2.2-3.3
FT%: .667

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/272/manu-ginobili

[Obstructed_View]

He fell head first. That's a flagrant 100 out of 100 times in the regular season, tbh.

This is, by far, the dumbest thing you've ever said, and that includes "tell me why Memphis shouldn't be heavily favored".

Also, not the regular season, so it's kind of irrelevant even if your statement wasn't complete BS. Last seconds of a playoff game. If someone did that in Chicago vs. Miami, they'd have gotten booed for letting go of his arm.

[hater]

He fell head first. That's a flagrant 100 out of 100 times in the regular season, tbh.

no he didn't fall head first. LOL bllind


True, that was bad acting but that only hurt his case. You pull someone out of the air and make them land head-before-body and you're getting a flagrant.

:lol "made him" I guess Diaw should have gotten a flagrant for "making" Barnes fall head first :lol

[smeagol]

Combined w/ this and .4, we should be looking a 7 god damn Championships this year tbh..

Describing the .4 game as a Manu mistake shows how fucking dumb you are.

[midnightpulp]

Describing the .4 game as a Manu mistake shows how fucking dumb you are.

Yeah, by no means a Manu mistake. He was all over Fish and a fingertip away from blocking the shot.

[TVI]

Wow. 8 pages on what should have been a simple OP fail.

[Juggity]

Manu's mistakes during these playoffs have been glaring and incredibly frustrating. If not for a few lucky made shots (well, really just the WCSF G1 gamewinner), it would be very difficult to continue to have confidence in him. His free throw shooting is just inexcusable. What happened there? He used to be automatic from the line, but now he's pretty much a lock to miss at least 1 FT every time he gets fouled. Shot selection has also been quite bad for the most part; heavily contested 3s from 5 feet behind the line, etc.

This foul is just another example of a mental lapse in a long line of mental lapses. Very disappointing.

[ffadicted]

It doesn't help you win. People can say it was a soft flagrant - and it was - but its called a flagrant a decent amount of the time. Maybe not half of the time - because it was soft - but Manu pulls him down and doesn't make a play on the ball. And even if its not, he likely makes 2 free throws and you're in the same position anyway. If you don't foul, he scores the layup and then you get the ball back with under 30 seconds to go. They likely have to foul and then you just need to hit your free throws. It doesn't help you win and it actually puts you in a position for OT. Its not really difficult.

It was a BS flagrant. Even JVG was astounded at it, and the fact that Allen flopped so hard. OBviously a flagrant is a bad play, but in that situation, you wrap him up and foul him 100% of the time, no questions. Two pressure free throws ALWAYS > > > easy layup.

[ohmwrecker]

Manu gave us plenty of things to be mad about. That foul was not one of them.

lol timvp

[bus driver]

OP fail :lol Manu did the right play.


uh? Fouling is the right play... that was no flagrant...

If he doesn't foul, he has to hear it from Pop... no layups at the end of playoff games...

You can't be this dumb.


thank you, common sense prevails. whoever started this thread should be kicked in the nuts.

[Keepin' it real]

Well, former ref Steve Javie just confirmed on ESPN that the officials correctly ruled it a flagrant foul. So there's that. I'll trust his opinion over anyone's on this forum.

[TJastal]

Every Manu haters posted here should GTFO of this forum. We expect a hard foul during Conference finals game... and Manu delivered. It was the right thing to do until an actor named Tony Allen performed on the court and the refs applauded. Fuck that call! Fuck every hater that thinks that was not a good foul to give!

[dbreiden83080]

No way that is a fucking flagrant, even the BSPN commentary team said it wasn't flagrant. Stern BS there.

Let him fucking score. He never knows the damn situation he is in. Spurs would have been up 2 with 26 seconds and the ball. Pop calls a TO and the Spurs run the clock and try to get a good shot. At worst you give the ball back to Memphis with maybe 7 or 8 seconds left to play still up 2.

[TJastal]

If Manu gets fouled like that he does a legitimately great flop and gets Allen served up with a flagrant 2 ejection. Manu maybe turns that into a suspension,tbh. Allen's flop was so terrible he almost cost himself a flagrant :lmao

There was no flop on the play. He fell legitimately on a hard foul. A classic example of a good playoff foul. There wasn't anything to sell except the fake head injury. I'm not sure how you think anyone can turn it into something even more. :lol

[Spur|n|Austin]

Worst thread ever

Let's keep it going though :)

[DAF86]

Obvious Kobe shot. Dude has never been injured and has been aging for a while, yet could play max minutes without getting gassed.

Maybe it's just me, but while having an older team certainly makes sense, it still seems odd that they get so gassed to the point they literally can't do anything despite having the most managed minutes in the history of the game.

When you are used to play 30 minutes per game is normal to be completaly gassed when you have to play 40.

[TJastal]

I'm gonna disagree. IMO, Pop goes on a tirade for giving up an easy layup when you could've sent him to the line.

Abso-fuckin-lutely. Pop would have been on one of his classic screaming and arm flailing benders. And rightly so.

[Spurs and Mavs fan]

The main problem was that the foul gave the Grizzlies the ball after the free throws.

Had Ginobili simply let Allen score 2 points with the layup, the Spurs would have gotten the ball back with a 2-point lead. Then they could hold on to the ball and force the Grizzlies to foul, then shoot FTs.

[carina_gino20]

Another angle:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2659959/tonypaaain_medium.gif

The way he curls into a fetal position as if he hit his head first is just too precious. :lmao

[DJR210]

Describing the .4 game as a Manu mistake shows how fucking dumb you are.

Lol, read the posts that led to mine again stupid Lord of the Rings faggot. I was referring to his mistake of fouling Dirk while up 3 in the WCF.

[mookie2001]

It was a bad foul, you have to be ref aware in that situation. Especially after the turnover they know you're frustrated and trying to get your money's worth.

And yes it was a flagrant. Flop or not, headshot or not. Not every flagrant is a suspendable malicious act, if it was Parker or manu defenseless like that, I'd sure as hell call for it

[Bill_Brasky]

Just posted this downstairs, this was NOT a foul, and nobody batted an eye, the announcers even said it was good rim protection and a good playoff foul:
BaTt6kF0iL4

But this was just out of line and a flagrant:
QWbqJFO43Dw

GMAFB. Looking at that first clip there's just absolutely no way Manu's foul was even close to flagrant. It was one of the WORST calls in the playoffs this year and we STILL won, so suck on that Memphis faggots.

[DarrinS]

You only know CP3 is going to add that Tony Allen move to his repertoire.

[100%duncan]

Gold thread tbh. :lol Lots of old folks getting pwnd then make cricket-like exits. :lol

[Spurs and Mavs fan]

I was referring to his mistake of fouling Dirk while up 3 in the WCF.


To be fair, if it weren't for his 3-pointer just moments before that, the Spurs wouldn't have been leading by 3 points.

It was the WCSF by the way, not WCF.

[ChumpDumper]

I can see how that was called a flagrant even after review. Even discounting the acting job, the contact can be deemed excessive -- and that's all it takes.

[boutons_deux]

I can see how that was called a flagrant even after review. Even discounting the acting job, the contact can be deemed excessive -- and that's all it takes.

so what if Manu wrapped him up and the faker doesn't fall, is that "excessive", being even more contact than just a risk grab?

[DJR210]

To be fair, if it weren't for his 3-pointer just moments before that, the Spurs wouldn't have been leading by 3 points.

It was the WCSF by the way, not WCF.

Thanks for the clarification.

[ChumpDumper]

so what if Manu wrapped him up and the faker doesn't fall, is that "excessive", being even more contact than just a risk grab?Probably not, since it wouldn't have led to an awkward landing.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's definitely flagrant IMO..

Manu didn't make a play on the ball, and his mistake was that he pulled Allen down(or at least appeared to pull him)..regardless of whether Allen sold it or not, it's still a flagrant, tbh..

I'm indifferent to Manu's decision, tbh..I understand both sides of the argument, but the Spurs won, so it's all good, tbh..

[2centsworth]

I can see how that was called a flagrant even after review. Even discounting the acting job, the contact can be deemed excessive -- and that's all it takes.

Do they not consider intent? Honest question, because it's obvious to me that Manu
is not trying to be excessive

[TJastal]

You only know CP3 is going to add that Tony Allen move to his repertoire.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Do they not consider intent? Honest question, because it's obvious to me that Manu
is not trying to be excessiveThe result -- an upended player -- is probably the bigger factor.

[ChumpDumper]

Gold thread tbh. :lol Lots of old folks getting pwnd then make cricket-like exits. :lolI think most of them have jobs.

[ceperez]

@ ElNono



This is basically what I was referring to. Either way I'm so fed up with Manu's 30% shooting, poor shot selection, poor FT shooting, and timely errors down the stretch as the icing on the cake. I think he should really stop shooting altogether and focus on creating shots for others. If the layup is there, take it.

We don't even need much of a defensive contribution from him against these guys.

Agree.. lot of bone head plays by Manu lately particularly during crucial plays. He's taking too many risks!

[TJastal]

The result -- an upended player -- is probably the bigger factor.

So every time a player hits the deck its flagrant. If that is the case there would be 5 flagrants/game on Parker alone.

:lol

[TJastal]

Do they not consider intent? Honest question, because it's obvious to me that Manu
is not trying to be excessive

They do whether they admit it ir not IMHO. Manu clearly does enough to prevent any chance of Allen making the layup.. and nothing more. Therefore it is not "flagrant".

[ChumpDumper]

So every time a player hits the deck its flagrant. If that is the case there would be 5 flagrants/game on Parker alone.

:lolNah, Tony usually lands on his feet then slides down on his hip or back. Not upended.

[ChumpDumper]

They do whether they admit it ir not IMHO. Manu clearly does enough to prevent any chance of Allen making the layup.. and nothing more. Therefore it is not "flagrant".Right, it is flagrant without the air quotes.