Miami's PnR Defense

[spurman123]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96432066@N03/8863913010/


Off twitter:

"Not to look too far ahead, but Memphis was No. 17 defending P/R ballhandlers. Miami? No. 1. Against roll man, too. Huge part of Spurs O." - Dan McCarney (https://twitter.com/danmccarneysaen) @danmccarneysaen (https://twitter.com/danmccarneysaen)


Discuss

[BillMc]

By contrast Coach Nick points out that the pick and roll with Hibert has been the most successful play for the Pacers against the Heat. Timmy can do anything Roy can, I think.... They may be vulnerable.

[Budkin]

One key to beating Miami re: pick and roll

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/5/26/4367618/nba-playoffs-2013-heat-pacers-pick-and-roll

[playblair]

heat series is not for bonner .................... blair is needed ................ playblair...................

[Wildcat67]

Difference is that the Heat play in the D-league eastern conference. Easy to put up great stats.

[Tuddy]

More Duncan in the post against Bosh

[superjames1992]

heat series is not for bonner .................... blair is needed ................ playblair...................
:lol

Tbh, neither will probably be very useful in this series. I foresee a lot of small-ball...

[Richie]

Heat relies on athleticism over defensive fundamentals. That works against most teams, but Spurs ball movement should kill them.

A horrible Pacers offence has scored 96+ on them 3 games in a row. I'm not worried about scoring, I'm worried about stopping them the other end.

[SpurPadre]

This stat takes into account PnR D against Leastern Conference teams, so it's meaningless without isolating how they played the PnR against the West.

[HarlemHeat37]

Miami was 25-5 against the West this year, they shit all over the conference, tbh:lol..

The Heat have 2 very solid pick&roll defenders in Bosh and Anderson, and they have Lebron/Chalmers/Cole/Wade to guard/swarm pick&roll ball-handlers..Parker and Ginobili are going to have trouble scoring against the Heat, it'll be up to Duncan/Splitter and the shooters to punish them..

[SpurPadre]

Miami was 25-5 against the West this year, they shit all over the conference, tbh:lol..

The Heat have 2 very solid pick&roll defenders in Bosh and Anderson, and they have Lebron/Chalmers/Cole/Wade to guard/swarm pick&roll ball-handlers..Parker and Ginobili are going to have trouble scoring against the Heat, it'll be up to Duncan/Splitter and the shooters to punish them..

We're not just talking wins and losses though. We're talking how they played the PnR and there are much better PnR teams in the West than in the East. Were those games they won high scoring affairs? Were most of them blowouts? And of course, none of the games they played against us really count because key players didn't play in either one.

[therealtruth]

Heat relies on athleticism over defensive fundamentals. That works against most teams, but Spurs ball movement should kill them.

A horrible Pacers offence has scored 96+ on them 3 games in a row. I'm not worried about scoring, I'm worried about stopping them the other end.

Tbh that's what the Mavs did in '11 to win. Just keep moving the ball to move the defense. They will get tired over a 7 game series.

[hyhy]

the heat are good at trapping ball handlers but they always leave the roll-man open as they always double team. as long as parker can make the pass in to splitter/duncan and not get trapped, our PnR will be effective

[Horry Hipcheck]

Ball movement is key. When the offense is firing on all cylinders, these Spurs can't be defended. Green and Leonard are going to have to make outside shots, or their opponent will have no reason to respect the perimeter - same as the series we just watched. If it's the Heat, they're going to throw all the athleticism in the world at Parker. Ginobili is also going to have to channel his 2005 self, the Spurs sorely need his playmaking.

[BatManu20]

If Parker starts playing well, they'll put Lebron on him and we'll be screwed tbh. Take away Parker, take away the Spurs offense. Gotta try and find a way to combat it. Just don't see how tbh. Duncan in the post will only work so much. Ginobili is not the Ginobili of the past. He's not going to give you 20 and 6 anymore. So I really don't know how they're going to try and adjust to that.

[Richie]

If Parker starts playing well, they'll put Lebron on him and we'll be screwed tbh. Take away Parker, take away the Spurs offense.

Honestly, this is something I'm not worried about at all. I'd rather Lebron on Parker if it means he'll be chasing Parker through 5 screens every possession, it'll tire him out down the offensive end.

The Heat won't let Parker turn the corner on the pick and roll by aggressively doubling him, which means he won't be able to easily get in to the lane. Parker won't be a major scoring factor against the Heat, it'll be our bigs on mismatches from the pick and roll and our shooters.

[Chinook]

If Parker starts playing well, they'll put Lebron on him and we'll be screwed tbh. Take away Parker, take away the Spurs offense. Gotta try and find a way to combat it. Just don't see how tbh. Duncan in the post will only work so much. Ginobili is not the Ginobili of the past. He's not going to give you 20 and 6 anymore. So I really don't know how they're going to try and adjust to that.

Lebron's a good iso defender, but I don't think he's going to be able to defend the Loop any better than Thompson or Conley/Allen did. He obviously can't just knock down the screener, so his size/speed combination isn't really that big of an issue.

If the Heat put James on Parker, the Spurs should excel in the cross-match. James will also be pretty worn out. He's the best player in the league, but he's not the best conditioned.

[Chinook]

Honestly, this is something I'm not worried about at all. I'd rather Lebron on Parker if it means he'll be chasing Parker through 5 screens every possession, it'll tire him out down the offensive end.

The Heat won't let Parker turn the corner on the pick and roll by aggressively doubling him, which means he won't be able to easily get in to the lane. Parker won't be a major scoring factor against the Heat, it'll be our bigs on mismatches from the pick and roll and our shooters.

Exactly. Lebron's a really good defender, but he gets overhyped a lot on that end. His too big to post up and his too quick to take off the dribble, but he's not that great at stopping players off screens. Even if the Heat stop Parker from penetrating, they won't stop the Loop. If James has to run into Duncan and Splitter every play, I think we'll see him switch off Parker pretty quickly. James on Green and Leonard is a huge victory for the Spurs, as the best he can do is help off them and give them open shots. If they're hitting their threes, James has to stay on them, and he may as well be any defender then.

[Richie]

If the Heat put James on Parker, the Spurs should excel in the cross-match. James will also be pretty worn out. He's the best player in the league, but he's not the best conditioned.

This is so true. Lebron is like 270lb and as freakish as he is athletically. carrying that much weight chasing 190lb (?) Parker all game long will work to Spurs advantage.

[siraulo23]

main concern this series

the spurs best weapon offensively is also miami's best strength defensively

[SupremeGuy]

Heat relies on athleticism over defensive fundamentals. That works against most teams, but Spurs ball movement should kill them.

A horrible Pacers offence has scored 96+ on them 3 games in a row. I'm not worried about scoring, I'm worried about stopping them the other end.This.

[Chinook]

For everyone's benefit, here's the B-ball Breakdown of Game 2 of the ECF:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHXfc3UlNfY

If the Pacers can exploit Miami's defense with an overhyped small-forward and George Hill handling the ball, the Spurs will be fine. I think Miami's defense will be easier to crack than Memphis', that's for sure.

[OrEmuN]

Our best weapon against Miami is actually ball movement.
They like to double up and trap due to the lack of rim protector. Then they will rotate quickly and they are able to do so due to the foot speed of LeBron and Wade.
We just have to move the ball to exhaust them as the rest of the rosters are filled with old men such as R.Allen, Battier, Miller.

Start with a PnR to initiate the trap. if Parker is able to find the roll man, it will be easy 2 pts. Otherwise, take the easy pass and send them running by moving the ball side to side. If we are able to do that early in the game, it will be advantageous to us in the late game when they are gassed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Miami is so good at pnr defense because the leagues bigs are so bad. They hedge really hard ie Bosh Birdman et al will double the ball handler hard out on the perimeter. That has the side effect of leaving the roll man a clear lane because his man is with the dribbler. Duncan and Splitter should eat that up as long as they space things correctly. It will end up in 4 foot hooks, layups and dunks or wide open perimeter shots.

Our bigs should have pretty easy sailing down low. Bosh is a bigger pussy on the boards than Splitter is. Andersen has been mediocre at guarding Duncan and Bosh wiill get owned. They key is slowing down Bosh and Wade. We need Green and Leonard to be at the top of thei defensive game. Having them and Manu run James and Wade around should help quite a bit.

[Kidd K]

Difference is that the Heat play in the D-league eastern conference. Easy to put up great stats.

Even though this argument is overplayed at times, there is still a degree of truth to it.

There's a reason Eastern conference teams tend to be high in defensive ratings every year: The east has very shitty offensive teams in it. When they play the west, their defensive ratings are much worse.

[DOS CHAINZ]

If they put one of the bigger defenders on TP to slow down the P&R. Just give Kawhi the ball on top of the key & let TP run off the ball with back door screens etc. If that fails, Manu must be out on the floor at the same time with TP. This will be tricky bc we want to watch Manu's playing time & give TP rest. If Blair is on the floor, Manu def better be out there with him. Him & Manu do a good job of playing that 2 man basketball.

[spurman123]

For everyone's benefit, here's the B-ball Breakdown of Game 2 of the ECF:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHXfc3UlNfY

If the Pacers can exploit Miami's defense with an overhyped small-forward and George Hill handling the ball, the Spurs will be fine. I think Miami's defense will be easier to crack than Memphis', that's for sure.

Good breakdown, but the Heat had total command of game 3. Also seems like the heat are getting good practice/experience playing against our own playbook...

[Richie]

Good breakdown, but the Heat had total command of game 3. Also seems like the heat are getting good practice/experience playing against our own playbook...

Pacers scored 56 points on the Heat in the first half, they only had control because the Heat destroyed the Pacers defence for 70 points.

Spurs will have no problem scoring on this Heat team IMO, the real battle will be stopping them the other end.

[pikkiwoki]

Defense vs. P&R Ball Handler

%Time
Num
PPP
Rank
FGM
FGA
FG%
3FGM
3FGA
3FG%
%SF
And 1
%TO
%Score


Miami
9.1%
927
0.7
1
232
568
40.8%
40
119
33.6%
5.4%
24
30.6%

32.8%


Memphis
13.9%
1416
0.8
17
435
1046
41.6%
51
172
29.7%
6.1%
23
17.6%
38.7%

[Chinook]

Good breakdown, but the Heat had total command of game 3. Also seems like the heat are getting good practice/experience playing against our own playbook...

Not really. Trapping can work well when you have Hill and George handling the ball. They're not going to be able to stop Parker, Duncan and Splitter at the same time.

[Splits]

The game TP played this year against Heat scrubs he was AWFUL dealing with the trap. I remember screaming at the screen for him to stop retreating to half court and picking up the ball. Hope it was an aberration and something he can be game planned to deal with. Because he was terrible that game.

[Richie]

Defense vs. P&R Ball Handler
%Time
Num
PPP
Rank
FGM
FGA
FG%
3FGM
3FGA
3FG%
%SF
And 1
%TO
%Score


Miami
9.1%
927
0.7
1
232
568
40.8%
40
119
33.6%
5.4%
24
30.6%
32.8%


Memphis
13.9%
1416
0.8
17
435
1046
41.6%
51
172
29.7%
6.1%
23
17.6%
38.7%




Where did you get those stats from?

[Chinook]

The game TP played this year against Heat scrubs he was AWFUL dealing with the trap. I remember screaming at the screen for him to stop retreating to half court and picking up the ball. Hope it was an aberration and something he can be game planned to deal with. Because he was terrible that game.

Tony wasn't in SuperParker mode yet. Now, especially after having some experience with it himself and having seen it exploited, he should be able to have success. The Spurs beat Memphis by making the extra pass from the roller to the other big. So the Heat would have to trap Parker, help on Splitter AND recover to Duncan on the same play while still guarding the three-point line. That's not an easy task, especially when the Spurs run as many as five PnRs on the same possession.

Also, it's much harder to trap a PnR when the offense is in constant motion. Lebron and Bosh would have to get to Parker to trap him after they both got screened at least once. The Spurs often run a PnR after the Loop, which means Parker's man will not be in a good position to trap him. The Heat will run Ice on Parker with the big pushing him away from the screen, but that leaves Duncan open at the top of the key for a jumper with only a small to close out on him. Hibbert isn't really a big threat away from the basket. If Tim is hitting from mid-range, the Heat will probably stop trying to trap Parker relatively quickly. If the other big helps on Duncan, then he can hit Splitter or a cutter for a layup.

[tesseractive]

Not really. Trapping can work well when you have Hill and George handling the ball. They're not going to be able to stop Parker, Duncan and Splitter at the same time.
This

And even when they handle the basic pick and roll really well, our multiple-screen plays are trickier than most of what I've seen Indiana run, and they depend on Tony's quickness and ability to change direction for their effectiveness, something the Pacers don't have in their toolbox. And if the Heat start to try to anticipate the plays, we have those great plays where we change direction on the picks that keep them from overpursuing.

With Parker playing the way he is, this is easily the best offense that Miami has had to face in the playoffs. And although I think Miami is a really well-coached team, I still think Pop can out-adjust Spo, and adjustments are going to be one of the big keys to this series -- even more than most.

Containing Miami's offense, though, is going to be even harder than scoring on them, I think.

[Richie]

The game TP played this year against Heat scrubs he was AWFUL dealing with the trap. I remember screaming at the screen for him to stop retreating to half court and picking up the ball. Hope it was an aberration and something he can be game planned to deal with. Because he was terrible that game.

I think this is the difference between the regular season and playoffs though. The Heat play a very unique kind of defence on the pick and roll and all teams struggle with it as shown by the stats. However, give a team a week to prepare and a full 7 game series, you can see how teams as relatively poor offensively as the Pacers can adjust to it and exploit it.

As I've said, I'm not worried at all by Miamis defence. I'm just not sure if we can defend them.

[Richie]

Tony wasn't in SuperParker mode yet. Now, especially after having some experience with it himself and having seen it exploited, he should be able to have success. The Spurs beat Memphis by making the extra pass from the roller to the other big. So the Heat would have to trap Parker, help on Splitter AND recover to Duncan on the same play while still guarding the three-point line. That's not an easy task, especially when the Spurs run as many as five PnRs on the same possession.

Also, it's much harder to trap a PnR when the offense is in constant motion. Lebron and Bosh would have to get to Parker to trap him after they both got screened at least once. The Spurs often run a PnR after the Loop, which means Parker's man will not be in a good position to trap him. The Heat will run Ice on Parker with the big pushing him away from the screen, but that leaves Duncan open at the top of the key for a jumper with only a small to close out on him. Hibbert isn't really a big threat away from the basket. If Tim is hitting from mid-range, the Heat will probably stop trying to trap Parker relatively quickly. If the other big helps on Duncan, then he can hit Splitter or a cutter for a layup.

The Heat don't place ice at all on the pick and roll, the hedge very aggressively to trap the ball handler. Need to rewatch some bballbreakdowns.

[TampaDude]

As I've said, I'm not worried at all by Miami's defense. I'm just not sure if we can defend them.

TBH, I think Miami is thinking the very same thing about the Spurs.

[BillMc]

I think this is the difference between the regular season and playoffs though. The Heat play a very unique kind of defence on the pick and roll and all teams struggle with it as shown by the stats. However, give a team a week to prepare and a full 7 game series, you can see how teams as relatively poor offensively as the Pacers can adjust to it and exploit it.

As I've said, I'm not worried at all by Miamis defence. I'm just not sure if we can defend them.

My main worry about the heat D is their ability to get turnovers, especially those first two games when we'll be coming off 10 days rest and not ready for Miami's exceptional speed. I think we'll settle down and be OK, but if it takes us 2 games that might be tough to survive.

Other than that, I think its a two way streak. We, too, will be BY FAR the best team the Heat will meet in this playoffs.

[Chinook]

TBH, I think Miami is thinking the very same thing about the Spurs.

The difference is the Spurs are a legitimate defensive team that doesn't rely on their leading scorer to also be their top defender. Green and Leonard can seriously concentrate solely on defense and hitting threes, and the Spurs can find plenty of points. If James gets tired on defense, Miami will lose.

[Chinook]

The Heat don't place ice at all.

Punny.

[TampaDude]

If James gets tired on defense, Miami will lose.

^ this, tbh

[TD 21]

Tony wasn't in SuperParker mode yet. Now, especially after having some experience with it himself and having seen it exploited, he should be able to have success. The Spurs beat Memphis by making the extra pass from the roller to the other big. So the Heat would have to trap Parker, help on Splitter AND recover to Duncan on the same play while still guarding the three-point line. That's not an easy task, especially when the Spurs run as many as five PnRs on the same possession.

Also, it's much harder to trap a PnR when the offense is in constant motion. Lebron and Bosh would have to get to Parker to trap him after they both got screened at least once. The Spurs often run a PnR after the Loop, which means Parker's man will not be in a good position to trap him. The Heat will run Ice on Parker with the big pushing him away from the screen, but that leaves Duncan open at the top of the key for a jumper with only a small to close out on him. Hibbert isn't really a big threat away from the basket. If Tim is hitting from mid-range, the Heat will probably stop trying to trap Parker relatively quickly. If the other big helps on Duncan, then he can hit Splitter or a cutter for a layup.

You could look at it one of two ways: He hasn't been hitting that shot as consistently as he normally does or he's due for progression to the mean. I'm big on the latter, so suffice it to say, I'm encouraged.

I agree that the Spurs will be able to score enough to win this series and that it's more a matter of whether they can defend well enough. I realize the Heat are in a different league offensively from anyone they've played, but the Spurs do have the best defense in the playoffs and despite the underwhelming offenses of two of the three they've played, it probably is legitimate. They were third in the regular season despite constant minute managing and injuries. Now that neither is a question and their biggest defensive weakness has been replaced by another plus defender and is playing a smaller role in general, they probably are the best defensive team in the league.

[td4mvp21]

The game TP played this year against Heat scrubs he was AWFUL dealing with the trap. I remember screaming at the screen for him to stop retreating to half court and picking up the ball. Hope it was an aberration and something he can be game planned to deal with. Because he was terrible that game.

Yeah, the sample size against the Heat is really small but I didn't like what I saw either against their pick and roll defense. On one hand, that was during their awful late season slump. On the other, it was without Wade/Lebron, who are quick perimeter defenders.