If some adjustments are obvious to us

[313]

Why aren't they obvious to Pop?

I'm DEFINITELY not saying members here have all the answers, but come on, he watches the tape! Why does he keep giving Neal so many minutes? WHy did it take him so long to realize Tiago was the right move to put next to Duncan? Why does he get "outcoached" by suposedly inferior coaches?

He's a hall of fame coach, if we can see it on the couch, why doesn't he see it on the sideline?

I still have faith that the Spurs win in 6 but jeez it's infuriating.

#gospursgo

EDIT: serious inquiries only....sike troll me away

[TheGoldStandard]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Tim, Manu, Tony go make your shots" sits back and enjoys looking like a Genius. When there shots don't fall we see the flaws in his game plan and rotations.

[tesseractive]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Tim, Manu, Tony go make your shots" sits back and enjoys looking like a Genius. When there shots don't fall we see the flaws in his game plan and rotations.
You know, that's all Vinny Del Negro thought there was to coaching, and that all these schemes and adjustments and such were just a bunch of B.S.

So congratulations -- if you can make motivational speeches and such, you might turn out to be a coach of Vinny Del Negro's caliber. I wish you the best of luck with that.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Bottom line, we turned the ball over, and our Big 3 SUCKED. Why is it so hard to understand???????? Green and Leonard have played phenomenal Defense. Better than anyone could have ever hoped TBH. Green was on fire game 2. Leonard's Offense has struggled. If our Big 3 hit shots, and we get points from Green and Leonard, we win the series. Neal plays because we have no other guards to play. Joseph is not cut out for this series. Lets be real. Mills, the same. People are screaming for T Mac, if he didn't get any time in the earlier RD's why would he in the NBA Finals?

We are at home for 3 games. Maybe Bonner and Diaw get going. The home crowd is more lively than I can ever recall, our role players feed off of it.

[TheGoldStandard]

You know, that's all Vinny Del Negro thought there was to coaching, and that all these schemes and adjustments and such were just a bunch of B.S.

So congratulations -- if you can make motivational speeches and such, you might turn out to be a coach of Vinny Del Negro's caliber. I wish you the best of luck with that.

That's just it, most coaches take this approach and the ones that get praise are the ones that have players that understand basketball and know where they should be or they're athletic freaks that can make even garbage look good. Most head coaches are not X's and O's guys and they shouldn't have to be unless they're dealing with young players who haven't played basketball that long at a fast pace most notably guys who are 1 and done in college. Vinny Del Negro sucks as a playoff coach because he has 1 superstar who understands the game but is not a scoring threat and a bunch of one trick ponies who can get shut down it you take it away. Most coaches would be considered geniuses if they kept the core of there team together for 10 years and had a great front office to find pieces who are willing to buy into the scheme.

Pop's not the one out there shooting the shots, he might call an occasional play here and there but for the most part its what Tim, Tony and Manu are doing to read the defense that is creating there offense. When shots don't fall we see the flaws of the rotations and question why such and such was in the game. When shots fall its all about how glorious the system is, the Spurs system is basically just getting to your spot and waiting, don't rock the boat and keep your mouth shut. The reason why its so hard for some people to get the system down is because they're expecting to do more, they're expecting to have more control in the offense and that's not the case, its just read and react to what Tim, Manu and Tony are doing and you know the system.
If you rock the boat or question anything you're on the first ticket out of as soon as your contract expires or if you mouth of to Pop you're gone during the season.

[313]

Bottom line, we turned the ball over, and our Big 3 SUCKED. Why is it so hard to understand???????? Green and Leonard have played phenomenal Defense. Better than anyone could have ever hoped TBH. Green was on fire game 2. Leonard's Offense has struggled. If our Big 3 hit shots, and we get points from Green and Leonard, we win the series. Neal plays because we have no other guards to play. Joseph is not cut out for this series. Lets be real. Mills, the same. People are screaming for T Mac, if he didn't get any time in the earlier RD's why would he in the NBA Finals?

We are at home for 3 games. Maybe Bonner and Diaw get going. The home crowd is more lively than I can ever recall, our role players feed off of it.
Why is Neal playing when he didnt get minutes in the earlier RD's?

CJ held his own in the WCF, dude is hungry and hasn't shown any signs of wilting under pressure. Do you really want to see Neal chuck up shots for 20 minutes tomorrow?

[TheGoldStandard]

Why is Neal playing when he didnt get minutes in the earlier RD's?

CJ held his own in the WCF, dude is hungry and hasn't shown any signs of wilting under pressure. Do you really want to see Neal chuck up shots for 20 minutes tomorrow?

I've thought about this and it doesn't make much sense. Corey Joseph has been getting minutes this post season and then all of a sudden they're gone and it doesn't make much sense. Now, you'll have those saying well Gary Neal shooting spaces the floor, and it does when he's knocking down shots but he hasn't had a steady dose of the playoffs to have a real good rhythm and I don't want to play him into a rhythm if that means mental mistakes and shitty chucking but this is what we've resorted to. You know things are screwy when he's playing more minutes than Manu and he's still blowing defensive assignments. Sure Manu has been pretty crappy but to think that we're relying on Gary Neal to front some of the scoring load says a lot about trust and a lot of what we're expecting out of a guy who's never been in this position before in his life. He has the same Finals experience as Patty Mills, Corey Joseph and T-Mac combined.

[Spurs21Fan4Ever]

Bottom line, we turned the ball over, and our Big 3 SUCKED. Why is it so hard to understand???????? Green and Leonard have played phenomenal Defense. Better than anyone could have ever hoped TBH. Green was on fire game 2. Leonard's Offense has struggled. If our Big 3 hit shots, and we get points from Green and Leonard, we win the series. Neal plays because we have no other guards to play. Joseph is not cut out for this series. Lets be real. Mills, the same. People are screaming for T Mac, if he didn't get any time in the earlier RD's why would he in the NBA Finals?

We are at home for 3 games. Maybe Bonner and Diaw get going. The home crowd is more lively than I can ever recall, our role players feed off of it.

Joseph is in the freakin NBA, when you're in the NBA you're ready for anything. It's not like in the Finals the basket is now 12 feet high or anything, basketball is basketball, and at this point, Joseph's defensive presence makes him a better basketball player than Gary Neal.

[tesseractive]

Let me make it real simple for you... do you remember Tayshaun Prince in the Memphis series? Well, if we play Joseph instead of Neal that is how they will be guarding Corey Joseph - making it much, much harder for everyone else to be effective. They cannot guard Neal like that because he is a threat to hit 3s/jumpers at a high clip. Even if he isn't hitting, they are respecting him. They will not respect Joseph... and they shouldn't.
:tu

[TheGoldStandard]

Let me make it real simple for you... do you remember Tayshaun Prince in the Memphis series? Well, if we play Joseph instead of Neal that is how they will be guarding Corey Joseph - making it much, much harder for everyone else to be effective. They cannot guard Neal like that because he is a threat to hit 3s/jumpers at a high clip. Even if he isn't hitting, they are respecting him. They will not respect Joseph... and they shouldn't.

So you mean giving him open looks to knock down a shot? We let Tayshaun take all those shots because he doesn't score at a high clip but come on if we're relying on Gary Neal to take a considerable load of the offense then we're already screwed. Corey Joseph can play better on ball defense than Gary Neal and I'll trade that for a chance that a 3 will fall in. Who knows maybe this kid who's hungry and wants to keep his job will actually show something and give us 5 or 10 minutes off the bench of good defensive effort and a few gimmie baskets. Better than 20 + minutes of hero ball chucking 30 footers or 3 point fast breaks when we have people in the paint or shitty point guard play.

[tesseractive]

That's just it, most coaches take this approach and the ones that get praise are the ones that have players that understand basketball and know where they should be or they're athletic freaks that can make even garbage look good. Most head coaches are not X's and O's guys and they shouldn't have to be unless they're dealing with young players who haven't played basketball that long at a fast pace most notably guys who are 1 and done in college. Vinny Del Negro sucks as a playoff coach because he has 1 superstar who understands the game but is not a scoring threat and a bunch of one trick ponies who can get shut down it you take it away. Most coaches would be considered geniuses if they kept the core of there team together for 10 years and had a great front office to find pieces who are willing to buy into the scheme.

Pop's not the one out there shooting the shots, he might call an occasional play here and there but for the most part its what Tim, Tony and Manu are doing to read the defense that is creating there offense. When shots don't fall we see the flaws of the rotations and question why such and such was in the game. When shots fall its all about how glorious the system is, the Spurs system is basically just getting to your spot and waiting, don't rock the boat and keep your mouth shut. The reason why its so hard for some people to get the system down is because they're expecting to do more, they're expecting to have more control in the offense and that's not the case, its just read and react to what Tim, Manu and Tony are doing and you know the system.
If you rock the boat or question anything you're on the first ticket out of as soon as your contract expires or if you mouth of to Pop you're gone during the season.
So is it that you don't think the schemes coaches install and the adjustments and counters they make literally don't matter?

There are only a handful of teams in the league that play a defensive scheme that's as fundamentally sound as the Spurs', and even fewer that can get all their players to execute it consistently. It doesn't happen by magic. It's not all just on the players. And if you look at a team that doesn't pay much attention to schemes -- like the Clippers -- you can see them get eaten alive by good playoff teams that break down game film and develop actual tactics to counter how they play.

The same is true of our offense. All those screens Tony runs off of? That's not just "hey, let's go run out on the court and see what we can do." That's a system that's carefully designed, and then drilled until all the players know it backwards and forwards. It requires unbelievable discipline from all 5 guys on the court to run a system like that. And then, like the defense, it's tweaked for individual games to try to get the advantage over what another team is specifically trying to do.

I just don't understand how you can watch all that and think none of it matters.

[tesseractive]

So you mean giving him open looks to knock down a shot? We let Tayshaun take all those shots because he doesn't score at a high clip but come on if we're relying on Gary Neal to take a considerable load of the offense then we're already screwed. Corey Joseph can play better on ball defense than Gary Neal and I'll trade that for a chance that a 3 will fall in. Who knows maybe this kid who's hungry and wants to keep his job will actually show something and give us 5 or 10 minutes off the bench of good defensive effort and a few gimmie baskets. Better than 20 + minutes of hero ball chucking 30 footers or 3 point fast breaks when we have people in the paint or shitty point guard play.
The point is not that Gary's 3s might fall in. The point is that Miami will guard him.

If we put Cory on the floor, Miami will play off him and drop Lebron (or whoever) down near the lane to provide an instant double team against any penetration. In effect, we'll be playing 4-on-5 on offense. When Tony drives, there will be an extra guy there to help with the trap, and more room for other defenders to rotate and cover everyone else. So Tony and Manu get worse looks on drives, Tony and Tim get worse looks from the elbows, our three-point shooters don't get the clean looks they normally when the ballhandler passes out of the defensive trap, and so on. Instead of shooting open shots, we're consistently shooting contested shots that are way harder to make. Our offensive efficiency goes through the floor.

[TheGoldStandard]

So is it that you don't think the schemes coaches install and the adjustments and counters they make literally don't matter?

There are only a handful of teams in the league that play a defensive scheme that's as fundamentally sound as the Spurs', and even fewer that can get all their players to execute it consistently. It doesn't happen by magic. It's not all just on the players. And if you look at a team that doesn't pay much attention to schemes -- like the Clippers -- you can see them get eaten alive by good playoff teams that break down game film and develop actual tactics to counter how they play.

The same is true of our offense. All those screens Tony runs off of? That's not just "hey, let's go run out on the court and see what we can do." That's a system that's carefully designed, and then drilled until all the players know it backwards and forwards. It requires unbelievable discipline from all 5 guys on the court to run a system like that. And then, like the defense, it's tweaked for individual games to try to get the advantage over what another team is specifically trying to do.

I just don't understand how you can watch all that and think none of it matters.

I'm not questioning schemes but this is not something that they learn when they get to the team, it's not like the schemes are some invention that they receive when they come to the NBA. The Spurs have a way of handpicking guys who will buy into the system, who will execute and have an IQ in basketball so it's not like these coaches are teaching them something brand new that's why we don't chase prospects, that we find diamonds in the rough because they have a high grasp of the game or we draft and stash so they can learn it overseas. The Spurs don't have time to really develop players and have them go through the motions, they wait for the offseason to see what they've learned working with the starters in practice etc etc. That's just a well run organization and props to the Spurs for that.

The Clippers are a good offensive team in the regular season because you can run for days in the regular season and teams don't see you up to 7 straight times during the year to make the defensive adjustments necessary to shut you down, you always have to change game plans to focus on the next team and know there personnel. Same reason why Memphis was good is because they played defense shut down threats but they didn't have offense so a team like the spurs who can have multiple weapons when people are hitting there shots can't score enough to compete.

I'm not saying that there is no offense but not every play is scripted, they're going off what the defense allows, where men are and to the degree of what the players think they can do to there matchups. There are instances when you want them to make the extra pass to an open defender or a would be open defender and the ball never gets there, whether that ego or just in the heat of the moment who knows but that's basketball. The Spurs have been successful for a long time because the guys who do the scoring are the same games that anchor the defense, they know where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to be doing. Everyone has a game plan until they get punched and that's what happened but it's not like Kawhi has plays designed for him at a high clip or Danny Green etc. The system is rotating depending on the spacing on the floor and where tony is going and be ready to shoot or set a pick, that's all it is. When Tony isn't in the game it's a lot of Manu ISO trying to draw defenders, setting picks and rotating. I'm sure they drill this but it's not like they have a 3rd or 4th option if things are clicking.

If Tony, Tim and Manu aren't playing well they don't say well we'll just get this guy going, nope they pack it in and hope for a better day. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, most teams aren't 3 deep enough with that kind of experience to have that kind of luxury but it's not like Pop is pulling the strings. He's there to make sure they are spacing properly, making sure he has fresh defenders in and then trying to get scoring options out there that don't have a clue what they're doing if someone isn't creating for them hoping that they'll generate some kind of offense and that's the only explanation for Gary Neal getting 20 + minutes. It's hard to defend the coaching when players are hot and then suddenly come out of the game at a pre-designated time like Manu who comes in at the 7 minute mark of the 1st no matter what.

Okay enough ranting..

[TheGoldStandard]

The point is not that Gary's 3s might fall in. The point is that Miami will guard him.

If we put Cory on the floor, Miami will play off him and drop Lebron (or whoever) down near the lane to provide an instant double team against any penetration. In effect, we'll be playing 4-on-5 on offense. When Tony drives, there will be an extra guy there to help with the trap, and more room for other defenders to rotate and cover everyone else. So Tony and Manu get worse looks on drives, Tony and Tim get worse looks from the elbows, our three-point shooters don't get the clean looks they normally when the ballhandler passes out of the defensive trap, and so on. Instead of shooting open shots, we're consistently shooting contested shots that are way harder to make. Our offensive efficiency goes through the floor.

Then set a screen to seal the defender at the elbow and have him drive, if they decide to collapse then you open up for shooters, he doesn't have to make the shots in order to create offense. Take what they can give you and get a high percentage shot rather than a guarded Gary Neal who spreads the floor but will ultimately decide to take a bad shot over the extra pass.

[tesseractive]

if they decide to collapse then you open up for shooters,
But that's the point -- they stay home on all the shooters but Cory, and the collapse comes from playing a defender away from him. So the only guy that the shooting opens up for is Cory. Miami is counting on two things: (1) even from that far away, there's a pretty good chance they can recover to Cory before he can catch and shoot, and (2) even if they can't, he's not going to hit at a high enough rate to kill them anyway.

That's how we killed Memphis when Tayshaun was in the game, and it's how OKC brutalized us when Bonner was in last year. it's a pretty good gamble for them, and pretty ugly odds for us. Which is why Cory is sitting.

[TheGoldStandard]

But that's the point -- they stay home on all the shooters but Cory, and the collapse comes from playing a defender away from him. So the only guy that the shooting opens up for is Cory. Miami is counting on two things: (1) even from that far away, there's a pretty good chance they can recover to Cory before he can catch and shoot, and (2) even if they can't, he's not going to hit at a high enough rate to kill them anyway.

That's how we killed Memphis when Tayshaun was in the game, and it's how OKC brutalized us when Bonner was in last year. it's a pretty good gamble for them, and pretty ugly odds for us. Which is why Cory is sitting.

I'd rather Joseph take an open shot than a Gary Neal contested shot and initiating the offense away from where that extra defender is helping will create either a mismatch or a switch to exploit. I'm not saying give Cory 20 minutes of playing time too but mix it up. Gary Neal should never have the ball in his hands as a PG at all, absolutely never.

[tesseractive]

I'm not questioning schemes but this is not something that they learn when they get to the team, it's not like the schemes are some invention that they receive when they come to the NBA. The Spurs have a way of handpicking guys who will buy into the system, who will execute and have an IQ in basketball so it's not like these coaches are teaching them something brand new

We're teaching them tons of things that are brand new -- we look for smart players because we need guys who are smart enough to learn them. We also look for guys who are hard workers, because we need guys who will keep at it over and over until they get it right. That's why it takes a lot of players -- even the smart ones we seek out -- a solid year or two before they can fully contribute to the team.

Here's a hint: with only a few exceptions worth even considering, other teams don't teach their players nearly as well. That's because of our coaching staff.


I'm not saying that there is no offense but not every play is scripted, they're going off what the defense allows, where men are and to the degree of what the players think they can do to there matchups.

Well, right. But it's like being a quarterback in football -- in a given situation, there are certain reads you need to make to decide what to do with the ball. All the quarterbacks on all the teams don't make the same reads and the same decisions -- different teams with different systems approach them differently. If you're on the Spurs, you know there are times to look for a guy making a backdoor cut, because that's part of what's taught. On another team, in a similar position, you might be looking for that player to set a screen or try to establish position in the post instead of making a cut. There's a lot of improvisation and decision making, but it comes within a Spurs-specific framework.


Spurs have been successful for a long time because the guys who do the scoring are the same games that anchor the defense, they know where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to be doing. Everyone has a game plan until they get punched and that's what happened but it's not like Kawhi has plays designed for him at a high clip or Danny Green etc. The system is rotating depending on the spacing on the floor and where tony is going and be ready to shoot or set a pick, that's all it is.
Right, but even with smart players, it takes good coaching and incredible attention to detail to get everybody to always know where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to be doing. This varies based on the complexity of the system -- if you have a bunch of rookies and free agents, you're likely to install a simpler offense so there's less for everyone to master. If you're installing the Triangle or the Spurs offense, there's enormous numbers of things everyone needs to know and be able to execute crisply every single time, or it all breaks down. That takes great coaching.

[tesseractive]

I'd rather Joseph take an open shot than a Gary Neal contested shot and initiating the offense away from where that extra defender is helping will create either a mismatch or a switch to exploit.
But there will be comparatively few Gary Neal shots, while Cory will be the open man virtually every time down the floor. Playing Cory means potentially dealing with 10 Cory Joseph possessions in a row. It's similar to the way that we often turned Golden State into the Harrison Barnes show and dared him to beat us. He scored quite a few points, but there was never any real hope that Golden State was going to beat us by running the offense through Harrison Barnes. Likewise, running the offense through Cory is a pretty doomed enterprise.

[Keepin' it real]

If some adjustments are obvious to us ... Why aren't they obvious to Pop?


What's "obvious" to you and other Spurstalk fans does not make it smart, or right, or obvious to a coach who has more coaching knowledge, experience and intuition than all Spurstalkers combined.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DIAiKFvtLw0/TooekfPZb4I/AAAAAAAAB90/6gAfHeBlbU4/s1600/Picture+9.png

[FromWayDowntown]

Remarkably, Pop made absolutely no adjustments in the Golden State series and absolutely no adjustments from that series to the next. He just told the Big 3 to go hit some shots and the Spurs won. Game 6 of the Golden State series, for one, is a testament to that.

[BillMc]

Also, let me expand on that point I just made and give an explanation of why Joseph was OK for our other playoff series. It's really simple, Miami is a pick and roll and defensive juggernaut on the perimeter. Even Memphis does not have the type of defenders at their disposal that Miami does. Say what you will about this, but a healthy Wade is a better defender than Allen and Bosh is better on pick and roll defense than Marc Gasol. I haven't ran numbers for that or anything, I'm just going by what my eye has told me over their careers. And it goes without saying, Memphis doesn't have LeBron James. If Joseph is on the floor, they will most likely put James on him and then allow James to roam and help on Parker drives and Duncan postups/rolls which is murder for the Spurs offense.

This is true. Against the Heat, all our players need to be offensive threats and spread out the Miami defense.

[SpurSpurSpurs]

Everybody, stay calm.

[Fabbs]

Quote Originally Posted by SpursFan313

If some adjustments are obvious to us ... Why aren't they obvious to Pop?


What's "obvious" to you and other Spurstalk fans does not make it smart, or right, or obvious to a coach who has more coaching knowledge, experience and intuition than all Spurstalkers combined.
We have no experience putting in Matty Bonbon, Dick Jefferson, and Mike Finley at the power forward spot in playoff fails.

True.

[CubanMustGo]

This thread is yet another tribute to gnsfs (and honorary gnsfs like ^^^) everywhere.