Manu will be the scapegoat as usual, but...

[Yuixafun]

Manu has the disconnect, he's sticking to the script when he's running Point, he's looking for shooters off PnR especially when they both rush up on him and leave Tiago open. Problem is Tiago sucks balls and can't finish. So, Duncan & Pop saying he needs to do more means he needs to score and look for his shot rather than pass it to someone who's going to fuck it all up. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Manu needs to score at least 10 to 15 points a game the rest of the way out, that scoring will help the drought the Spurs go on when Parker & Tim are out of the game.

The offense is stagnant when manu runs point, lots of standing around and lots of high low pick n roll which would be okay if Splitter wasn't a major douche. I think Diaw should get minutes with Manu and they work some pick n pop or pick n roll with diaw looking to shoot but also the option to pass to a cutting player when he gets the entry pass off the pick.

Reminds me a lot of when Kobe pulled a stunt where he didn't shoot the ball and just passed all game to prove a point.

Manu needs to get over himself and do what he needs to do to help the team.



I see a lot of a sullen child in that response.

[jestersmash]

He doesn't owe you shit.

And by the same token, for the money he's being paid, he's not owed a 'pass' by spurs fans for his atrocious play either.

[ElNono]

My point was nobody asked him to reduce his scoring load this year. Manu himself took the liberty to reduce his own scoring responsibilities after a string of terrible shooting nights.

According to Pop, Pop never asked Manu to change his role on the team this year. Manu took it upon himself to reduce his own load to that of a common role player.

I mean hell he's taking less of an offensive load than Danny Green right now.

It's a game of confidence. If they go in, he shoots more. If it doesn't, he won't. Which is why I said he needs to break through that and shoot more.

You simply can't yank him out of the team, because Green, Neal, Joseph or Neal can run the point. So he's gonna have to push the issue and if he makes he makes, and if he misses he misses. We're too far into the season now to reinvent the wheel.

[MannyIsGod]

He doesn't owe you shit.

Thats bullshit. You rationalize every fucking thing he does or says. He played OK. Thats the weakest take I've ever heard from Manu. He absolutely owes it to Spurs fans to give it his all out there. I didn't doubt that was happening until his post game comments.

[ElNono]

And by the same token, for the money he's being paid, he's not owed a 'pass' by spurs fans for his atrocious play either.

He's being paid what the Spurs agreed to pay him. He also played 3 years for dimes producing like crazy. We'll call it even.

[ElNono]

Thats bullshit.

It isn't bullshit. He doesn't owe you shit.

This is a guy that stuck to the franchise, and will probably be unable to walk straight after he retires because he left everything on the floor for YOUR team. Now he's aged and he can't be long haired Gino, and NOW he owes you shit? GTFO

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I'm reading some pretty ridiculous negative stuff about Manu that should have no place here.

Manu doesn't owe you shit.

And I would stop the nonsense right now. Some people are just walking a fine line now.

Be fucking extremely careful now

[jestersmash]

It isn't bullshit. He doesn't owe you shit.

This is a guy that stuck to the franchise, and will probably be unable to walk straight after he retires because he left everything on the floor for YOUR team. Now he's aged and he can't be long haired Gino, and NOW he owes you shit? GTFO

:lol Calling your post 'melodramatic' would be the understatement of the century.

[MannyIsGod]

It isn't bullshit. He doesn't owe you shit.

This is a guy that stuck to the franchise, and will probably be unable to walk straight after he retires because he left everything on the floor for YOUR team. Now he's aged and he can't be long haired Gino, and NOW he owes you shit? GTFO

You really fucking think Manu's been done wrong by the Spurs and Spurs fans huh? You think that he's had it rough with them? Unfuckingbelievable. Every person who puts on that uniform owes the fans. Especially one who's received so much of their adoration for a long ass time. You're a moron if you think otherwise.

LMAO @ won't be able to walk straight though. Jesus fucking Christ there isn't a cross big enough for you to nail Manu to.

[FkLA]

Thats bullshit. You rationalize every fucking thing he does or says. He played OK. Thats the weakest take I've ever heard from Manu. He absolutely owes it to Spurs fans to give it his all out there. I didn't doubt that was happening until his post game comments.

After years of watching Manu and how competitive he is, you really think he isnt giving it his all? His body has betrayed him tbh. His mind sees things he is no longer capable of doing. Kinda douchey as fans to get mad about that after everything hes done. Should sadden us as fans not madden us.

[jestersmash]

I'm reading some pretty ridiculous negative stuff about Manu that should have no place here.

Manu doesn't owe you shit.

And I would stop the nonsense right now. Some people are just walking a fine line now.

Be fucking extremely careful now

:lmao

Fine line for what? Hurting COM member feelings on an internet message board?

[TheGoldStandard]

It's a game of confidence. If they go in, he shoots more. If it doesn't, he won't. Which is why I said he needs to break through that and shoot more.

You simply can't yank him out of the team, because Green, Neal, Joseph or Neal can run the point. So he's gonna have to push the issue and if he makes he makes, and if he misses he misses. We're too far into the season now to reinvent the wheel.

Eh, not sold on Green or Neal running the point but I agree they're probably more ready to run it than Joseph at this stage. Joseph picks his dribble up too quickly when pressured. Green has terrible handles and Neal gets trapped easy.

[MannyIsGod]

After years of watching Manu and how competitive he is, you really think he isnt giving it his all? His body has betrayed him tbh. His mind sees things he is no longer capable of doing. Kinda douchey as fans to get mad about that after everything hes done. Should sadden us as fans not madden us.

http://www.nba.com/spurs/video/2013/06/13/130613ginobilimp4-2508507

Thats the closest I've ever seen Manu to outright bitching about what he's asked to do. He's sulking. Look if its his body, then thats that. Nothing he can do. If he's playing passive because he's pissed about what he's "asked to do" then thats total bullshit.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

:lmao

Fine line for what? Hurting COM member feelings on an internet message board?

My point.... Still stands

[ElNono]

:lol Calling your post 'melodramatic' would be the understatement of the century.

But it's true, tbh... heck, I remember when I met Bill Walton and it was painful just to watch him walk. These guys are completely wrecked after they retire, especially guys that banged a lot.

[InK]

After years of watching Manu and how competitive he is, you really think he isnt giving it his all? His body has betrayed him tbh. His mind sees things he is no longer capable of doing. Kinda douchey as fans to get mad about that after everything hes done. Should sadden us as fans not madden us.

Heh FkLA being voice of reason. The end is near. Manu agreeing with Nono in that he is playing ok at the postgame press conf. is kinda surprising though. I never seen Manu make excuses for his bad play before, he was always very critical of himself.

[ElNono]

You really fucking think Manu's been done wrong by the Spurs and Spurs fans huh? You think that he's had it rough with them? Unfuckingbelievable. Every person who puts on that uniform owes the fans. Especially one who's received so much of their adoration for a long ass time. You're a moron if you think otherwise.

LMAO @ won't be able to walk straight though. Jesus fucking Christ there isn't a cross big enough for you to nail Manu to.

WTF? He plays hard every fucking game. He's OLD. He can't do what a 25 year old can do. He still goes out there, and plays his heart out. This is a guy that Pop calls one of the most competitive guys he's ever seen, and he's seen plenty of guys.

[ElNono]

Eh, not sold on Green or Neal running the point but I agree they're probably more ready to run it than Joseph at this stage. Joseph picks his dribble up too quickly when pressured. Green has terrible handles and Neal gets trapped easy.

Yep, as I was discussing with GSH, the only other person I would give a quick flyer on is T-Mac, but with Manu playing the 3. (Neal at 2). Miami plays small anyways.

[timvp]

http://www.nba.com/spurs/video/2013/06/13/130613ginobilimp4-2508507

Thats the closest I've ever seen Manu to outright bitching about what he's asked to do. He's sulking. Look if its his body, then thats that. Nothing he can do. If he's playing passive because he's pissed about what he's "asked to do" then thats total bullshit.

That really is the most twilight zone interview of Manu I've ever seen. If I didn't know better, I'd think all his answers were being passive-aggressive about not liking his role on the team.

It makes it extra strange that it's Manu because this is a guy in his prime who would literally be on suicide watch after playoff losses. If he had a game like this back then, they'd have to put him in a padded room until the start of the next game.

Hopefully this is just Manu BSing his way through media answers and the fire/passion/anger is bubbling under the surface. I suspect that is the case.

But if Manu is really saying what he thinks in that interview, the Spurs are toast. They can't win if Ginobili think his role is to be a poor man's Brent Barry.

[ElNono]

Thats the closest I've ever seen Manu to outright bitching about what he's asked to do. He's sulking. Look if its his body, then thats that. Nothing he can do. If he's playing passive because he's pissed about what he's "asked to do" then thats total bullshit.

He isn't playing 'passive'. He's playing the role Pop gave him: facilitator as a backup PG. That's a role that doesn't allow him to drive to the rack, or take open shots.

I'm sure Manu would like to play his natural position as a SG, but Neal never developed into a backup PG (and we all definitely remember THAT experiment).

[MannyIsGod]

That really is the most twilight zone interview of Manu I've ever seen. If I didn't know better, I'd think all his answers were being passive-aggressive about not liking his role on the team.

It makes it extra strange that it's Manu because this is a guy in his prime who would literally be on suicide watch after playoff losses. If he had a game like this back then, they'd have to put him in a padded room until the start of the next game.

Hopefully this is just Manu BSing his way through media answers and the fire/passion/anger is bubbling under the surface. I suspect that is the case.

But if Manu is really saying what he thinks in that interview, the Spurs are toast. They can't win if Ginobili think his role is to be a poor man's Brent Barry.

Its more passive aggressive than a 16 year old girl. I have NEVER doubted Manu's heart until now. And - like you - I'm mostly certain that he's trying 100% out there but you can't tell me that there's not a part of you who thinks that he might be pulling a Kobe at the worst possible time ever. I hope not. I suspect no one outside the organization knows.

[FkLA]

http://www.nba.com/spurs/video/2013/06/13/130613ginobilimp4-2508507

Thats the closest I've ever seen Manu to outright bitching about what he's asked to do. He's sulking. Look if its his body, then thats that. Nothing he can do. If he's playing passive because he's pissed about what he's "asked to do" then thats total bullshit.

There is nothing in that interview that makes me question whether he is giving his all. Im sure he realizes the obvious (that his body has physically deteriorated). He says he is a facilitator and that with the season Tony and the shooters have had he doesnt need to score as much...all that is true. Not seeing what the problem is with that interview tbh.


Heh FkLA being voice of reason. The end is near. Manu agreeing with Nono in that he is playing ok at the postgame press conf. is kinda surprising though. I never seen Manu make excuses for his bad play before, he was always very critical of himself.

He said his role is to be a facilitator and that he didnt do that 'too well' today. He also said he wishes he could score more and his shots would fall, not sure how someone takes that as him saying hes playing well.

[MannyIsGod]

Since when does the back up PG position mean you can't fucking drive???? You're pulling shit out of your ass to rationalize his play. He's playing the same fucking role he's played for the past 6 years as a Spur and all of a sudden now he's not allowed to drive? Make up your mind - is it his body or is it because he plays this new non driving backup PG position?

[jestersmash]

He isn't playing 'passive'. He's playing the role Pop gave him: facilitator as a backup PG. That's a role that doesn't allow him to drive to the rack, or take open shots.

I'm sure Manu would like to play his natural position as a SG, but Neal never developed into a backup PG (and we all definitely remember THAT experiment).

Except Pop never said anything of the sort (at least publicly). In fact, he's said the opposite publicly. You're just making stuff up now.

Pop would never give anyone on the team a role that involves not "tak[ing] open shots." Pop pulls people for giving up open shots. He doesn't care if you miss. He cares if you hesitate with taking open shots. Are you serious right now?

[jestersmash]

I actually thought ElNono's defense of Manu was at least intelligible (albeit slightly delusional IMO) up until I read this:

"He isn't playing 'passive'. He's playing the role Pop gave him: facilitator as a backup PG. That's a role that doesn't allow him to drive to the rack, or take open shots."

[timvp]

That's a role that doesn't allow him to drive to the rack, or take open shots.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_drUMJ9HF-tQ/Rx5SSExa6YI/AAAAAAAAAfI/wI9a6BR225Y/s400/Andy+IIM.jpg

[Yuixafun]

That last part of the interview

At 5:40 when he says "and.. that's not what I'm ASKED to do"

listen to how he emphasizes the word

and watch his demeanor and body language.

There's a world behind that little sentence.

You might think it's borderline Stephen Jacksonish



Also at around 5:30 when he says " I have to be sharp feeding the bigs... and fiding the shooters USE THEM"

JUST Pause it at 5:35 look at his face and eyes.

Clearly there is some resentment there or exasperation.

[FkLA]

That really is the most twilight zone interview of Manu I've ever seen. If I didn't know better, I'd think all his answers were being passive-aggressive about not liking his role on the team.

It makes it extra strange that it's Manu because this is a guy in his prime who would literally be on suicide watch after playoff losses. If he had a game like this back then, they'd have to put him in a padded room until the start of the next game.

Hopefully this is just Manu BSing his way through media answers and the fire/passion/anger is bubbling under the surface. I suspect that is the case.

But if Manu is really saying what he thinks in that interview, the Spurs are toast. They can't win if Ginobili think his role is to be a poor man's Brent Barry.


Its more passive aggressive than a 16 year old girl. I have NEVER doubted Manu's heart until now. And - like you - I'm mostly certain that he's trying 100% out there but you can't tell me that there's not a part of you who thinks that he might be pulling a Kobe at the worst possible time ever. I hope not. I suspect no one outside the organization knows.

WTF? So the same guy who had no problem coming off the bench for years now has a problem with his role? :lol

Its not like Manu isnt involved in the offense anyways, he still has his moments of running the offense. Hes more passive because he has to be (Im sure hes aware of his physical limitations now) not because hes fucking Kobe.

[InK]

That's a role that doesn't allow him to drive to the rack, or take open shots.


Unreal.

[MannyIsGod]

WTF? So the same guy who had no problem coming off the bench for years now has a problem with his role? :lol

Its not like Manu isnt involved in the offense anyways, he still has his moments of running the offense. Hes more passive because he has to be, Im sure hes aware of his physical limitations now, not because hes fucking Kobe.

High probability Manu is giving it his all. But that interview is really really really really really odd for Manu. Hopefully as LJ said its just the way he reacted tonight to being so pissed. Honestly, now I want to see Manu drive and maybe take a couple of bad shots in the lane. Well I'd prefer good shots in the lane obviously but now I just want to see him show some fire out there in Game 5.

[hommeaetage]

He isn't playing 'passive'. He's playing the role Pop gave him: facilitator as a backup PG. That's a role that doesn't allow him to drive to the rack, or take open shots.

I'm sure Manu would like to play his natural position as a SG, but Neal never developed into a backup PG (and we all definitely remember THAT experiment).

Now you're just making stuff up tbh. I'm pretty sure the backup PG role has more than call a pick 30 feet from the basket or shoot a contested step back 3

[MannyIsGod]

El Nono if you were trolling job well done. Otherwise.... lol.

[SA210]

You really fucking think Manu's been done wrong by the Spurs and Spurs fans huh? You think that he's had it rough with them? Unfuckingbelievable. Every person who puts on that uniform owes the fans. Especially one who's received so much of their adoration for a long ass time. You're a moron if you think otherwise.

LMAO @ won't be able to walk straight though. Jesus fucking Christ there isn't a cross big enough for you to nail Manu to.

Dude, gtfo with that bullshit. Manu was robbed of his well deserved starting role his entire career. He sacrificed for this team. I even think you're happy he said what he said just so you could further shit on him. He owes you? He gives all he has, and always has. He's fucking struggling horribly right now beyond belief. It happens to the best of them sooner or later. Timmy looked almost done 2 years ago. Now look at him.

Damn some Spurs fans, if you wanna call yourselves that.

[SpurSpurSpurs]

That last part of the interview

At 5:40 when he says "and.. that's not what I'm ASKED to do"

listen to how he emphasizes the word

and watch his demeanor and body language.

There's a world behind that little sentence.

You might think it's borderline Stephen Jacksonish



Also at around 5:30 when he says " I have to be sharp feeding the bigs... and fiding the shooters USE THEM"

JUST Pause it at 5:35 look at his face and eyes.

Clearly there is some resentment there or exasperation.

You high?

[Yuixafun]

Nah but I should go to bed.

[ElNono]

Since when does the back up PG position mean you can't fucking drive???? You're pulling shit out of your ass to rationalize his play. He's playing the same fucking role he's played for the past 6 years as a Spur and all of a sudden now he's not allowed to drive? Make up your mind - is it his body or is it because he plays this new non driving backup PG position?

Do you watch the games AT ALL, Manny?

Go watch what happens when he starts running the pick and roll. This isn't something every team does. It's Miami that defends it like this.

This is why he doesn't drive:
http://i43.tinypic.com/1424xi1.png

http://i39.tinypic.com/qyhj7k.png

He's not quick enough to go around both defenders.

Miami is the TOP pick and roll defense in the league. Safe to say that yeah, no, Manu hasn't played against this kind of defense as a backup PG in the past 6 years.

[FkLA]

High probability Manu is giving it his all. But that interview is really really really really really odd for Manu. Hopefully as LJ said its just the way he reacted tonight to being so pissed. Honestly, now I want to see Manu drive and maybe take a couple of bad shots in the lane. Well I'd prefer good shots in the lane obviously but now I just want to see him show some fire out there in Game 5.

You guys expect him to flat out come out and say his body has deteriorated so now he has to be more of a facilitator? Of course hes going to say its no longer his role or that scoring 20 ppg isnt expected of him instead of flat out saying that, dont see how thats odd. I just think its ridiculous to accuse one of the most unselfish and most competitive players weve had in SA of not giving it his all or purposely being passive to send a message.

I dont agree with ElNono about him being tied down by the role Pop gave him though. Regardless of role Manu would still drive relentlessly if he were still capable enough tbh.

[DAF86]

That really is the most twilight zone interview of Manu I've ever seen. If I didn't know better, I'd think all his answers were being passive-aggressive about not liking his role on the team.

It makes it extra strange that it's Manu because this is a guy in his prime who would literally be on suicide watch after playoff losses. If he had a game like this back then, they'd have to put him in a padded room until the start of the next game.

Hopefully this is just Manu BSing his way through media answers and the fire/passion/anger is bubbling under the surface. I suspect that is the case.

But if Manu is really saying what he thinks in that interview, the Spurs are toast. They can't win if Ginobili think his role is to be a poor man's Brent Barry.

lol how is that being passive/agressive? :lol

He's pretty straightforward in this interview. Watch it again. He hasn't been a high volume scorer all season long and it's clear that he doesn't need to be for this team to be as good as it is. At no point in this interview I see him bitching about his role, he's just calling it how he sees it and to be honest as it is, he has been more of a facilitator than a scorer all season long. He says he needs to do a better job at it but nothing more. I don't see him sending any hidden message to Pop about his role, tbh.

[ElNono]

Now you're just making stuff up tbh. I'm pretty sure the backup PG role has more than call a pick 30 feet from the basket or shoot a contested step back 3

He's being trapped or they're sagging from him. The only way to make them pay, at least on the sagging part, is making a shot (which he can't right now). The trapping part: get rid of the ball.

[dallasmaverickslose]

I think yall are really taking Manu's interview WAY out of context...

[ElNono]

El Nono if you were trolling job well done. Otherwise.... lol.

Not trolling, Many...GSH already called you out on this thread about the backup PG thing... you probably didn't see it.

[timvp]

lol how is that being passive/agressive? :lol


At no point in this interview I see him bitching about his role

Not sure if you know what passive-aggressive means, tbh.

Again, on the surface it sounds passive-aggressive as hell ... but it's Manu so I'm going to safely assume that it's not. Anyone else, though, I wouldn't give the benefit of the doubt -- even TD.

[ElNono]

:lol

Tell me how he beats that trap, LJ...

The only time I recall this series where he was running PG and Miami didn't trap/sag (Wade went over the screen), was in Game 1, when the score was 18-18 (go look it up, I know you have it on your DVR).

What did Manu do? He drove to the rack!

[FkLA]

Since when is being honest about your role the definition of being passive aggressive? :lol

[DAF86]

Not sure if you know what passive-aggressive means, tbh.

Again, on the surface it sounds passive-aggressive as hell ... but it's Manu so I'm going to safely assume that it's not. Anyone else, though, I wouldn't give the benefit of the doubt -- even TD.

:rolleyes "At no point in this interview I see Manu playing the passive/agressive card and hinting that he's not happy about his role". Is that better for you?

Seriously, he's just speaking his mind and tbh is the truth, what everybody has seen during the whole season.

[ElNono]

I dont agree with ElNono about him being tied down by the role Pop gave him though. Regardless of role Manu would still drive relentlessly if he were still capable enough tbh.

I think it's a combo of things... it's both how he's being played and the fact that he isn't fast enough anymore to beat it... Tony struggles sometimes against it too, but he has quick enough feet to eventually beat it.

[DAF86]

Its more passive aggressive than a 16 year old girl. I have NEVER doubted Manu's heart until now. And - like you - I'm mostly certain that he's trying 100% out there but you can't tell me that there's not a part of you who thinks that he might be pulling a Kobe at the worst possible time ever. I hope not. I suspect no one outside the organization knows.

You still mad he didn't tip you?

[HI-FI]

lol at this thread. i have a feeling this will be a great read when i wake up tomorrow. Should hold us over til Game 5.

that being said, i mentioned on here during the 9-day rest that I figured Manu would really benefit from the rest and truly peak in the Finals. wow.....I had no idea he would be playing so shitt....OK by his standards.

[ElNono]

lol at this thread. i have a feeling this will be a great read when i wake up tomorrow. Should hold us over til Game 5.

that being said, i mentioned on here during the 9-day rest that I figured Manu would really benefit from the rest and truly peak in the Finals. wow.....I had no idea he would be playing so shitt....OK by his standards.

10 pages... you know it's a hit!

[timvp]

Tell me how he beats that trap, LJ...

As I've posted elsewhere (maybe in this thread, tbh), I'd abandon pick-and-rolls with Manu. He can't turn the corner, he can't hit that pull-up three and the Heat are pre-rotating on his passes so even when he doesn't turn it over, whoever catches it has a Heat player swiping at the ball.

Pop needs to get Manu into isolations and tell him to create one-on-one. Also, running him off screens and maybe even giving him a few post opportunities early to get him going could help.

I don't mind Manu running random pick-and-rolls later in the shot clock against a rotating defense -- that can be successful at times. It's when he deliberately goes into the top pick-and-roll that there really is little chance of a positive outcome.

[ElNono]

As I've posted elsewhere (maybe in this thread, tbh), I'd abandon pick-and-rolls with Manu. He can't turn the corner, he can't hit that pull-up three and the Heat are pre-rotating on his passes so even when he doesn't turn it over, whoever catches it has a Heat player swiping at the ball.

Pop needs to get Manu into isolations and tell him to create one-on-one. Also, running him off screens and maybe even giving him a few post opportunities early to get him going could help.

I don't mind Manu running random pick-and-rolls later in the shot clock against a rotating defense -- that can be successful at times. It's when he deliberately goes into the top pick-and-roll that there really is little chance of a positive outcome.

Then we agree. But under that scenario, he's not running the second unit (he's doing iso). Or somebody else has to run the point to run him off screens.

The way Miami defends the pick and roll right now, he won't be able to drive or get a clean look in the mid-range. It's 3 pointer, pass or bust.

[ElNono]

anyhow, too late now... I expect this to be 15 pages by tomorrow morning, tbh

[FkLA]

Just noticed Manu was out there with the scrubs in garbage time. Message on Pops part ?

[superjames1992]

Manu wasn't "ok". This was the worst game in his playoff career, tbh.

[superjames1992]

Just noticed Manu was out there with the scrubs in garbage time. Message on Pops part ?

Could be. At least Manu made use of it and finally made a bucket.

[superjames1992]

It is good to see Spurstalk's resident psychologists and body language experts at it again.

[milkyway21]

If TP is not 100% I think it is better for him to sit. IMO.

[smaka]

We don't need SuperManu to win it all.. We just need him to play AVERAGE and make some damn shots. We don't need him to go HAM, just make open shots and don't turn the ball over...

[spurspokesman]

Pops point guard experiment haunting the spurs. Man o man what tj ford really meant to us

[SpurYank]

Not sure how many of you there are, but I do know this: With a few exceptions, NONE of you deserve to have an NBA team to root for that is TWO wins from winning the title. Must be nice to be perfect as undoubtedly all of you are. You are also the biggest cry babies in all of fan-dom.

[#2!]

Pops point guard experiment haunting the spurs. Man o man what tj ford really meant to us

His positive impact on the team was wildly underrated; Ford gave an entirely different feel to the second unit and took a serious amount of pressure off of Manu. I actually thought losing him cut the Spurs WC champs chances in half last year.

Amazing what a good ballhandler can mean to a team.

[Venti Quattro]

We just need him to play AVERAGE

Lady do you realize what you're saying? It's the FINALS and you're asking for just an average effort?

[George Gervin's Afro]

...he was ok. He handed Splitter 3 dunks right under the rim, and Tiago wasted them all.

This game was decided by the Spurs' 20 turnovers (of which Manu only had one).

The only criticism, IMO, is that he's going to need to be much more aggressive if Tony is gonna be hobbled. He took only 4 shots (until garbage time) in 20 mins. That's not going to get it done if we have Tony hurt.

But I'm sure people want to vent, so go ahead an crucify him...

I have always had a man crush for MG but in this series he has been TERRIBLE.

[SenorSpur]

Manu is supposedly one of the stars of this team. He deserves criticism for his poor play. However if you think about it, he's been horrible for most of the postseason. It's not surprising that he sucked again last night. Spurs cannot win without some level of contribution from him. It's really starting to appear that he's done, as a player.

Splitter, on the other, has no viable reason to keep playing like a big vagina. I've never seen a big get his shot swatted by a vertiable assortment of opposing players - guards, forwards, center. I guess you can't teach aggression.

[sammy]

I wonder if he's hurt? He's so out of rhythm and he tries to get others involved such as the soft Splitter who can't handle a pass or misses a dunk (WTF)!:bang Time and time again, he kept getting the pass to that bitch Splitter and Splitter stinking it up! I was yelling at the TV "Stop Giving Him the Ball! :bang While everyone blames Manu, everyone else played bad except for Neal and maybe Green! Tony played well in the first half but seemed so tired and it didn't help with the refs giving Lebroom and Co. every call and allowing them to rack our arms and no calls! The turning point was when Pop took Tony and Green out when we had a 10 point lead and that was it! Pop needs to take some responsibility for poor coaching!:bang

[41times]

Ginob +/- stat -22 last night.
The Ball don't lie

[smaka]

Lady do you realize what you're saying? It's the FINALS and you're asking for just an average effort?

I do realize, sir! :lol
What I meant is, if Manu played at least average, things would already look much better for Spurs. And of course, I'm not asking only for an average effort from him (or anyone else), but sadly, sometimes the effort doesn't bring the efficiency, you know. Maybe Manu is trying to too much and thus even hurts the Spurs.

[rascal]

All season long I told you not to count on Manu in the playoffs, now people are realizing what I have been saying all along.
I was hoping he didn't come back on his last contract . Two more years of him at his asking price will kill Duncan's last years.

[rascal]

Manu is supposedly one of the stars of this team. He deserves criticism for his poor play. However if you think about it, he's been horrible for most of the postseason. It's not surprising that he sucked again last night. Spurs cannot win without some level of contribution from him. It's really starting to appear that he's done, as a player.

Splitter, on the other, has no viable reason to keep playing like a big vagina. I've never seen a big get his shot swatted by a vertiable assortment of opposing players - guards, forwards, center. I guess you can't teach aggression.

Another player I had no hope in. Splitter just is not very good and has been over rated by this board. He is awkward and just too slow against quicker more athletic players.

[Josepatches_]

People blame on Manu because he always was the key of the team.

But you have to move on. He's not the same anymore. Don't ask him to be Supermanu. The loss is not on him.

He was one of the greatest players of our history. It's not fair to blame him because he's done . Blame Pop for play him

[SenorSpur]

Another player I had no hope in. Splitter just is not very good and has been over rated by this board. He is awkward and just too slow against quicker more athletic players.

At least Manu has an excuse. He's had a ton of injuries and it seems his body is now simply betraying him. He's had a stellar career and will be in the basketball HOF.

Splitter has absolutely no excuse for his charmin-like play. I guess he has been overrated by many. However, the light is on now. He's been an utter disgrace in this series. Kawai Leonard has been the superior rebounder over our 6'11" Brazilan-born center - which is inexplicable.

[kaji157]

At least Manu has an excuse. He's had a ton of injuries and it seems his body is now simply betraying him. He's had a stellar career and will be in the basketball HOF.

Splitter has absolutely no excuse for his charmin-like play. I guess he has been overrated by many. However, the light is on now. He's been an utter disgrace in this series. Kawai Leonard has been the superior rebounder over our 6'11" Brazilan-born center - which is inexplicable.
It´s actually explicable. He is, as you said, brazilian-born. How many brazilians do you know that don´t shrink in the biggest basketball scenario?

[SenorSpur]

It´s actually explicable. He is, as you said, brazilian-born. How many brazilians do you know that don´t shrink in the biggest basketball scenario?

touche'

[rascal]

Anyone know how many times Slitter got his shot blocked last night? Those are turnovers and result in fast break points the other way.

[kaji157]

Anyone know how many times Slitter got his shot blocked last night? Those are turnovers and result in fast break points the other way.

3 blocked shots (heonly took 3 shots), 3 turnovers.

[GSH]

Tell me how he beats that trap, LJ...




If you're really quick, and a good ball handler, you split it or go around it before they can get set up. If you can't do that, you pass. Manu hasn't been able to beat it off the dribble, which means he has to pass away from it, and he hasn't been too successful with passing. But you can't blame all of that on him.

I made a thread about this after Game 2 - nobody paid any attention to it. To beat the trap with the pass, you have to have teammates who are moving without the ball, to create angles. The other guys have to see the trap coming, too, and adjust. The Spurs haven't been doing that well. I've watched it over and over in this series. The Heat bring the trap, and the ball handler has only got one man he can possibly pass to - and the Heat have a defender salivating, waiting for that pass. The ball handler takes the blame, but he really doesn't have much choice in the matter.

It would be nice if Manu could beat the trap on his own. But it would be nice if CoJo could do that as well. But since that's not happening, the other guys on the floor are going to have to react earlier, and create the angles for good passes. It doesn't help to have two guys buried in the corners, when the ball handler is trapped near mid-court, with no outlet.

Trapping is a gamble, The beauty of beating it with the pass is that you've got numbers down the court, and you can usually get easy points off of it. Do that a few times, and they quit bringing the trap. They'll still do it once in a while, to mix things up, or if they see you getting lazy bring the ball up. But right now, when Parker isn't in the game they are bringing it just about every play - because it's working. And like I said, you can't blame all of that on Manu. He's lost some speed, but he hasn't lost his smarts. The rest of the guys are going to have to do a better job of moving without the ball.

I'll be honest - some of that is on Pop. I was frustrated as hell that they obviously hadn't prepared for it better by last game. Honestly, the only time a trap ought to work that well is if you don't know it's coming. Because if you know that a trap is coming, and execute decently, you ought to be able to just punish the shit out of them for it. In fact, against really aggressively-trapping teams, I've seen coaches bait them into trapping, because beating it gets so many easy shots. I haven't seen Pop do anything special - just hand the ball to Manu or CoJo, and try to run their normal offense. That's a problem, because the Heat run their trap very well.

[DarrinS]

Great post GSH

[DarrinS]

Still, I'm a high priest in the church of Manu, and I'm about to issue an Amber Alert for Manu's game.

[RD2191]

He doesn't owe you shit.

:lmao.....this guy

[ElNono]

If you're really quick, and a good ball handler, you split it or go around it before they can get set up. If you can't do that, you pass. Manu hasn't been able to beat it off the dribble, which means he has to pass away from it, and he hasn't been too successful with passing. But you can't blame all of that on him.

I made a thread about this after Game 2 - nobody paid any attention to it. To beat the trap with the pass, you have to have teammates who are moving without the ball, to create angles. The other guys have to see the trap coming, too, and adjust. The Spurs haven't been doing that well. I've watched it over and over in this series. The Heat bring the trap, and the ball handler has only got one man he can possibly pass to - and the Heat have a defender salivating, waiting for that pass. The ball handler takes the blame, but he really doesn't have much choice in the matter.

It would be nice if Manu could beat the trap on his own. But it would be nice if CoJo could do that as well. But since that's not happening, the other guys on the floor are going to have to react earlier, and create the angles for good passes. It doesn't help to have two guys buried in the corners, when the ball handler is trapped near mid-court, with no outlet.

Agreed, and that's exactly what Manu was pointing out in the interview: it's not about him personally scoring 15-20 points. It's making sure the team moves the ball quickly to open up the game for the bigs and shooters. That's his role now. That's who they are. They're not going to change who they are at this point in the season.


Trapping is a gamble, The beauty of beating it with the pass is that you've got numbers down the court, and you can usually get easy points off of it. Do that a few times, and they quit bringing the trap. They'll still do it once in a while, to mix things up, or if they see you getting lazy bring the ball up. But right now, when Parker isn't in the game they are bringing it just about every play - because it's working. And like I said, you can't blame all of that on Manu. He's lost some speed, but he hasn't lost his smarts. The rest of the guys are going to have to do a better job of moving without the ball.

I'll be honest - some of that is on Pop. I was frustrated as hell that they obviously hadn't prepared for it better by last game. Honestly, the only time a trap ought to work that well is if you don't know it's coming. Because if you know that a trap is coming, and execute decently, you ought to be able to just punish the shit out of them for it. In fact, against really aggressively-trapping teams, I've seen coaches bait them into trapping, because beating it gets so many easy shots. I haven't seen Pop do anything special - just hand the ball to Manu or CoJo, and try to run their normal offense. That's a problem, because the Heat run their trap very well.

Which is also why I was pointing out the Splitter failure. He finishes off those dunks at the rim, and Manu suddenly looks great and Miami is now thinking, do we really want to keep being aggressive with the trap?

Pop will adjust to the lineup change, but I don't think he's gonna do much more. As stated above, he's a strict believer of the "journey". I suspect we're going to keep playing this way, Manu won't be taking 10+ shots, and we're either going to play better (less turnovers, more ball movement) and win or not.

And Manu will certainly be the scapegoat if we don't. Per the usual.

[GSH]

Splitter, on the other, has no viable reason to keep playing like a big vagina. I've never seen a big get his shot swatted by a vertiable assortment of opposing players - guards, forwards, center. I guess you can't teach aggression.



Splitter's bread and butter is the up-and-under. How many times have you seen him go to it in the playoffs? Off the top of my head, I would say zero. His problem is less about being soft, and more about being impatient.

Tiago isn't a high-flyer - we all know that. And Miami has a bunch of athletic guys who can get way off the ground. Getting blocked by those guys isn't a big surprise, and it doesn't have anything to do with being soft. (There are some other places where I think he IS being soft, but that's not one of them.) One of his problems is that, because he doesn't get way off the ground, he's pretty much always going up right under the basket. That means he has to go straight up, or even lean away from the rim a little bit - and that's a setup for getting blocked. It's also the reason the up-and-under works for him so well. On all of the shots he's gotten blocked, if he had given an up-fake the defenders would have left their feet. He could have gotten layups, and some trips to the FT line. When you go up from even 3-4 feet from the rim, and lean into the dunk, you aren't going to get it blocked from behind. But when you go straight up, from right underneath? Yeah, these guys are going to swat them down.

[GSH]

Which is also why I was pointing out the Splitter failure. He finishes off those dunks at the rim, and Manu suddenly looks great and Miami is now thinking, do we really want to keep being aggressive with the trap?

Pop will adjust to the lineup change, but I don't think he's gonna do much more. As stated above, he's a strict believer of the "journey". I suspect we're going to keep playing this way, Manu won't be taking 10+ shots, and we're either going to play better (less turnovers, more ball movement) and win or not.




I just mentioned the Splitter dunks, above. Most people are barking up the wrong tree about that.

Pop doesn't have to change the lineup. He needs to spend a day working on beating that trap, though. I'm sorry, but when you've got a guy being trapped out near mid-court, and you have two guys buried in each corner, you're not going to be very successful. The result of combatting the trap may be giving up some corner 3 attempts. But the trade-off should be some easy shots at the rim and/or some open short jumpers. And let's face it, the guys in the corners aren't doing any good when we cough the ball up before they can shoot.

[Brazil]

disappointing ElNono only 12 pages with a thread title like Manu scapegoat as usual, but ...? I mean I was expecting at least 20 pages.

strangely enough in this thread I do share most of FkLA (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17213) opinions :lol

Doubting that Manu is giving it all is beyond ridiculous tbh. Saying he had an ok game is also foolish. Not seeing that Spurs will need more from Manu than being a facilitator is also foolish. At home he can play the facilitator role and stick to it, on the road for a game 6 or 7 he will need to score, counting on Green, Neal, Bonner to score the ball especially late in the game would be suicidal.

If Manu continues to play like that, chance to win is 1%, if Manu plays more aggressive we are probably at 10%.

I don't know if there is a disconnect between Manu and Pop about his role but they need to fix that shit and quick.
If Pop really ASK him to just play PnR, feed the bigs and be a mere facilitator, that's a mistake and Tim, Manu and Tony need to speak up.

[ElNono]

I just mentioned the Splitter dunks, above. Most people are barking up the wrong tree about that.

Pop doesn't have to change the lineup. He needs to spend a day working on beating that trap, though. I'm sorry, but when you've got a guy being trapped out near mid-court, and you have two guys buried in each corner, you're not going to be very successful. The result of combatting the trap may be giving up some corner 3 attempts. But the trade-off should be some easy shots at the rim and/or some open short jumpers. And let's face it, the guys in the corners aren't doing any good when we cough the ball up before they can shoot.

Well, when we did successfully beat it, we had 3-4 easy attempts at the rim and botched them. I understand what you describe about Tiago, and it might have nothing to do with soft or not, but those are as easy opportunities as this team is going to get at the rim, and they need to finish them. That's the bottom line. If you don't finish those, then Miami is emboldened to keep playing the same way.

[AaronY]

Pop needs to tell Manu about the rabbitsrofl, who is this?..

[superbigtime]

I absolutely love Manu; he has been my hero. My groomsman cake was a 3 foot Manu cake for Pete's sake. But Manu deserves to be the scapegoat. He has been dreadful. I keep optimistically waiting for that good game from him, but after watching his post season, it is logical to conclude that he is playing terribly and cannot turn it around. But Pop is going to ride him til the end.

[SenorSpur]

Splitter's bread and butter is the up-and-under. How many times have you seen him go to it in the playoffs? Off the top of my head, I would say zero. His problem is less about being soft, and more about being impatient.

Tiago isn't a high-flyer - we all know that. And Miami has a bunch of athletic guys who can get way off the ground. Getting blocked by those guys isn't a big surprise, and it doesn't have anything to do with being soft. (There are some other places where I think he IS being soft, but that's not one of them.) One of his problems is that, because he doesn't get way off the ground, he's pretty much always going up right under the basket. That means he has to go straight up, or even lean away from the rim a little bit - and that's a setup for getting blocked. It's also the reason the up-and-under works for him so well. On all of the shots he's gotten blocked, if he had given an up-fake the defenders would have left their feet. He could have gotten layups, and some trips to the FT line. When you go up from even 3-4 feet from the rim, and lean into the dunk, you aren't going to get it blocked from behind. But when you go straight up, from right underneath? Yeah, these guys are going to swat them down.

Exactly and that's what I refer to as being soft - not going up strong. If a player goes up strong and gets his shot blocked, so what? However, if a player wimps around the basket and goes up weak, that's something else. Spilitter has an arsenal of moves and up and under fakes in his reportiore. He should use them to create space and draw fouls. For now, it looks like the Heat are in his head.

[ducks]

spurs need 10-15 points from manu
I knew he would SUCK last night with only one day off
SUNDAY IS HIS DAY TO SHINE IF HE BRINGS NOTHING HIS CONTRACT VALUE JUST DROPS BY MILLIONS
RIGHT NOW HE IS WORTH THE VET MIN NEXT YEAR

[ElNono]

disappointing ElNono only 12 pages with a thread title like Manu scapegoat as usual, but ...? I mean I was expecting at least 20 pages.

:depressed

still working on it, tbh... BTW, how that "it's over" thread coming along? :lol


I don't know if there is a disconnect between Manu and Pop about his role but they need to fix that shit and quick.
If Pop really ASK him to just play PnR, feed the bigs and be a mere facilitator, that's a mistake and Tim, Manu and Tony need to speak up.

I see disappointment in your future, tbh... We only played about 100 games this season with that setup, I don't think there's any disconnect... now with Tony hurt there's a special circumstance and things might need to change, but other than that, that's what got us here and what we're rolling with. IMO, anyways.

[rascal]

I just mentioned the Splitter dunks, above. Most people are barking up the wrong tree about that.

Pop doesn't have to change the lineup. He needs to spend a day working on beating that trap, though. I'm sorry, but when you've got a guy being trapped out near mid-court, and you have two guys buried in each corner, you're not going to be very successful. The result of combatting the trap may be giving up some corner 3 attempts. But the trade-off should be some easy shots at the rim and/or some open short jumpers. And let's face it, the guys in the corners aren't doing any good when we cough the ball up before they can shoot.

The Spurs are too reliant on the 3 point shot. They have too many players who just camp out on the 3 point line on most offensive possessions. Miami just has to take that away and force those 3 point campers to go out of their comfort zone, force them to hit shots off the dribble or take it to the basket and the result is a turnover or a confused offense not getting a good shot off.

[diego]

Since when does the back up PG position mean you can't fucking drive???? You're pulling shit out of your ass to rationalize his play. He's playing the same fucking role he's played for the past 6 years as a Spur and all of a sudden now he's not allowed to drive? Make up your mind - is it his body or is it because he plays this new non driving backup PG position?

if you think manu has the same role in the past 6 years, you havent been paying attention at all. starting last year manu's minutes and shot attempts have dropped and he has become a set up man, mostly because he lost his 1st step. To compound the problem further, the leg injuries this year have taken a toll on his shooting so defenders can just back off. tough to fake out a pro when they are watching from far away and you cant just attack them directly. if you dont think so, look at wade: 4 years younger than manu, has played even less than manu in his career due to injuries from his (similar) playing style, and w/o lebron and the whole team consciously setting him up he has sucked balls all PO, till finally last night he got into a bit of a rhythm with his shot.


When Manu was a star he was able to penetrate on any defense. He was a scorer, doing most of his damage inside with 3 pt shooting and playmaking as auxiliary skills. Eventually the 3pt shooting and the playmaking superceded the penetration, now the playmaking is all that is left. And while some of that is his body breaking down, some of it is also his role on the team, as there are players better equipped to score on the roster now. At the same time, the spurs haven't had a decent back up PG since vaughn? I dont know if a few months of tj ford count. The only player who gets setup less than manu does on this team is Tony parker, we'll see how well he is scoring at age 35 w/o someone to set him up the way timmy gets set up.

as far as this game, it wasnt only the feeds to Tiago that were wasted. Timmy got blocked on a great inside pass from manu going to the rim, leonard got blocked on an interior pass from tim that was setup by manu too. Some of it is poor finishing from our guys, some of it is great defense from the heat. Its amazing how some people cant give the opponent any credit (and of course, many of those people are the same that said we didnt stand a chance against miami).

I think its a mistake to try and change identity at this point of the season. If pop and manu didnt believe it necessary or best/ couldn't establish manu as a scorer before this, now is not the time to do it. That doesnt mean manu shouldn't be a little more selfish, there definitely was a little diaw jr. to his game today (but even then I rather he turn down open 3s unless there is no time for another option). The big key last night was on defense, we can't let the heat kill us inside and turnovers are a big part of that. Manu has to do more, on both ends, while taking care of the ball, but we dont need big scoring numbers, just for him to run the offense, help out on the boards and be disruptive on D- in other words, like he has played for most of the PO.


This is where you need to evaluate what "ok" means. There is no argument (even giving him credit for 3 more assists) that 5/5/2 with a turnover on 20% FG with 4 fouls is "ok".

its retarded to expect good per game numbers from a guy averaging 24 mpg.
for 26 minutes last night, 5 ast / 1 TO would have been good; if you consider that those plays happened in less than 26 minutes and would have changed the complexion of the game (forcing miami to reconsider the traps), then even with the 20% shooting it would be better than just ok IMO.

But given the reality that those passes didnt translate to scores and that the offense was unable to punish the heat's traps, it was not an ok performance. Some of that responsibility is on Manu for not taking charge and forcing better looks, but the brunt of it is Pop's responsibility for relying on a 35 year old to beat traps from the best perimeter defense in the league. In that sense Nono is right that Manu did what he should by passing the ball inside, that the heat were able to recover is not manu's fault, nor is it manu's fault that the spurs had twice the TO of the heat.

[DMC]

No, Pop has to play Parker 40 minutes in Game 5. If his hamstring explodes, it explodes.

And Manu needs to get his 30-32 minutes, with Duncan going 38-40.

Pop has to rest them for next season.

[Man In Black]

Splitter's bread and butter is the up-and-under. How many times have you seen him go to it in the playoffs? Off the top of my head, I would say zero. His problem is less about being soft, and more about being impatient.

Tiago isn't a high-flyer - we all know that. And Miami has a bunch of athletic guys who can get way off the ground. Getting blocked by those guys isn't a big surprise, and it doesn't have anything to do with being soft. (There are some other places where I think he IS being soft, but that's not one of them.) One of his problems is that, because he doesn't get way off the ground, he's pretty much always going up right under the basket. That means he has to go straight up, or even lean away from the rim a little bit - and that's a setup for getting blocked. It's also the reason the up-and-under works for him so well. On all of the shots he's gotten blocked, if he had given an up-fake the defenders would have left their feet. He could have gotten layups, and some trips to the FT line. When you go up from even 3-4 feet from the rim, and lean into the dunk, you aren't going to get it blocked from behind. But when you go straight up, from right underneath? Yeah, these guys are going to swat them down.

It happened to Tim too. It's shocking, the guys should be able to recognize when they have a decided advantage at the rim. They keep going up strong side against these athletic defenders. They need to be able to position themselves better. Attack and use the rim to fend off would be shot-blockers. Or even just go back to the basket then spin to a better attack position. More than a few times, the bigs including Kawhi look hurried or rushed. That one play were Kawhi caught the ball and tried to get it up and shoot the ball all in 1 motion is indicative of the way the Spurs played around the rim.

[Brazil]

:depressed

still working on it, tbh... BTW, how that "it's over" thread coming along? :lol




well... it's a slow start but I collected some nice pearls in the middle of the crab basket... I spotted some VIPs lurking and DMC went to say hello so it may take off at some point. But I'm not delusional, if you don't get the 2 / 3 pages in the next 30 mn after you created the thread, chances to reach the 5 pages are low.

[jestersmash]

If you're really quick, and a good ball handler, you split it or go around it before they can get set up. If you can't do that, you pass. Manu hasn't been able to beat it off the dribble, which means he has to pass away from it, and he hasn't been too successful with passing. But you can't blame all of that on him.

I made a thread about this after Game 2 - nobody paid any attention to it. To beat the trap with the pass, you have to have teammates who are moving without the ball, to create angles. The other guys have to see the trap coming, too, and adjust. The Spurs haven't been doing that well. I've watched it over and over in this series. The Heat bring the trap, and the ball handler has only got one man he can possibly pass to - and the Heat have a defender salivating, waiting for that pass. The ball handler takes the blame, but he really doesn't have much choice in the matter.

It would be nice if Manu could beat the trap on his own. But it would be nice if CoJo could do that as well. But since that's not happening, the other guys on the floor are going to have to react earlier, and create the angles for good passes. It doesn't help to have two guys buried in the corners, when the ball handler is trapped near mid-court, with no outlet.

Trapping is a gamble, The beauty of beating it with the pass is that you've got numbers down the court, and you can usually get easy points off of it. Do that a few times, and they quit bringing the trap. They'll still do it once in a while, to mix things up, or if they see you getting lazy bring the ball up. But right now, when Parker isn't in the game they are bringing it just about every play - because it's working. And like I said, you can't blame all of that on Manu. He's lost some speed, but he hasn't lost his smarts. The rest of the guys are going to have to do a better job of moving without the ball.

I'll be honest - some of that is on Pop. I was frustrated as hell that they obviously hadn't prepared for it better by last game. Honestly, the only time a trap ought to work that well is if you don't know it's coming. Because if you know that a trap is coming, and execute decently, you ought to be able to just punish the shit out of them for it. In fact, against really aggressively-trapping teams, I've seen coaches bait them into trapping, because beating it gets so many easy shots. I haven't seen Pop do anything special - just hand the ball to Manu or CoJo, and try to run their normal offense. That's a problem, because the Heat run their trap very well.

Nice analysis, I agree completely. The Heat are trapping in such a way as to make our usual floor spacing useless. We need to have guys on the move, cutting to the wide open spaces on the floor. This is one reason why I'm in favor of a Tony-Diaw pick and roll (or maybe even Manu/Diaw). If the Heat trap Tony/Manu, Diaw splits the trap and runs straight towards the middle of the floor (near the free throw line) where he (presumably) receives the pass from Tony. Now we're in a 4 vs 3 help situation and hopefully Diaw can make the right play. He's a gifted enough passer to do so.

Tiago was rolling to the wide open spaces as well, but as ElNono correctly pointed out earlier he was actually getting stripped from the weakside and not Manu's man. We need the superior passing talents of Boris in this situation, IMO. Actually, we first need Boris to score a couple of baskets near the rim in order to force weakside help on subsequent possessions.

[jestersmash]

The Spurs are too reliant on the 3 point shot. They have too many players who just camp out on the 3 point line on most offensive possessions. Miami just has to take that away and force those 3 point campers to go out of their comfort zone, force them to hit shots off the dribble or take it to the basket and the result is a turnover or a confused offense not getting a good shot off.

No. We're shooting something insane like > 50% from 3 in games 2 through 4. Game 1 was our only poor 3 point shooting performance. Our 3 point shooting has been critical in helping us keep our leads or keep the game close.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Less P&R with Manu Miami P&R defense is just to good, need more Iso, he had a iso game 3 and went right by Wade with a right hand finish, also have to run more off ball plays for manu have him run off screens I'm sure Pop will make lots of adjustments. But this is a sad thing to watch as a Manu fan he has never been under this much scrutiny in his entire basketball career ever professional analyst is just shocked by this, This is the NBA FINALS and Manu hasn't showed up its a sad thing to watch. I still believe in him though

[Agloco]

I agree, he had to play with Joseph who plays scared and Neal who is too loose with the ball, he wasn't in a great situation, Manu needs Boris at the 4 to help with the playmaking, not added pressure from playing with scrubs.

This. Boris came in and gave us a boost. The Spurs need two playmakers out there at all times. If Parker isn't one of them, then Boris has to be along with Ginobili.

Honestly though, this game came down to two things, turnovers and rejections at the rim. The Spurs had 5 shots blocked at the rim with another one from Diaw blocked as he went up. That's 12 points and likely a few less for MIA since those blocks started fast breaks.

Dee-Whistle had 6 steals by himself, also leading to more fast break points.

Any way you slice it though, this loss is not on Manu.......not by himself anyway.

[OldSilentHill]

Yeah Manu taking off the dribble 3s when he's shooting them below 30% is one thing that's pretty much inexcusable.

Yes, that´s a TO as well.

[JRHernandez88]

I'm with you NoNo http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1301/crybabyv.png



















He'll come through when it matters :depressed

[emanueldavidginobili]

The dude was straight ballin In the Olympics what 10 months ago and even exactly a year ago was going to work against the Thunder. There's no way your body and shot just shit the bed in a year, it just seems like his heads in a different place this year

[Sasha]

Splitter is the softest pussy I've seen. 7-foot man with a 7-inch vagina. Gets blocked by guards, gets stripped by guards, cannot rebound over smaller players.

I've gotta ask this: Why do you guys always equate a vagina with weakness? Last time I looked, y'all would do anything to get in one!

[jestersmash]

Telling quote from Popovich (taken from one of the other Manu bashing threads on the first page):

''He's having a tough playoffs, and hasn't really found a rhythm or found his game yet,'' Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said Friday. ''I think that he's obviously not as confident as usual, and he knows full well he hasn't performed the way he would like and the way he's used to. But it's simplistic to say, 'What are we going to do to get him going?'''

[Ryan Fitzpatrick]

It's never easy watching your favorite horse go the glue factory.

[2centsworth]

That people would say in 25mpg avgs of 35%fg, 19%3pt, 70%ft, 3APG, 2TO and 7.5pts is ok is hilarious. Then to say that's above average is even funnier. I'm starting to think Argentinians have laced Splitter's water to deflect attention from Manu.

[ElNono]

I'm thoroughly enjoying my stage of denial... I'll probably get to the anger stage before Derrick Rose comes back, tbh

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Q. I wanted to ask you about Manu and just kind of get your assessment on what you've been able to do to slow him down. He struggled a lot in the playoffs, long before you guys were facing him in the playoffs. What are you seeing out of him as a player? Does it still feel like he's the guy that at some point he's going to pop and be the player he has been for so many years?

COACH ERIK SPOELSTRA: I don't know if we're doing anything. In Game 3 he made every trigger pass for them that embarrassed us. And he was in the middle of all those plays that either led to points in the paint or three‑point shooting. Even though the statline may not be what everybody wanted, he had a tremendous impact. And sometimes it's just make or miss, to be quite frank.


http://www.nba.com/spurs/playoffs/130614_erik_spoelstra

[2centsworth]

http://www.nba.com/spurs/playoffs/130614_erik_spoelstra

You're doing great Manu, keep up the awesome work.
-Erik Spoelstra LOL

[ElNono]

Coach Spo recognize game, tbh

[rr2418]

Splitter used to have pretty good fakes around the rim, at least during the regular season. What has happened to them? He's just taking the ball straight up without any moves. Too predictable!!

[Darius McCrary]

Funny how Manu's interview sparked such a debate. Some quick thoughts:

-I didn't see Manu as being passive aggressive in that interview, but i took it as him not being comfortable answering questions after he had such a bad game. Honestly i thought he was being a bitch. But never thought he was being unsatisfied with his role, rather unwilling to admit he needs to step up MASSIVELY.

-Never once have i questioned Manu's effort in the playoffs, and i don't question hiss effort last night.

-However, going into this series, i thought Manu was going to be sacrificing his body on driving into the paint like a mad man living on borrowed time. Haven't seen that yet.

-We all expected Manu turnovers. What we didn't expect was horrible passes from up top and constant chanked hero ball threes.

Go into the paint Manu. Pass and shoot from there.

He said he's as healthy as he's been all season, and we saw him SKY for the one handed dunk in game 3. He needs to reassess his approach and start sacrificing to get into the paint.

[TheGoldStandard]

Splitter used to have pretty good fakes around the rim, at least during the regular season. What has happened to them? He's just taking the ball straight up without any moves. Too predictable!!

Well, he's getting stripped really easy so he can't even fake, he's scared when he catches the ball because he's afraid of getting stripped and blocked so he makes herky jerky decisions which result in failure and he's not mentally tough to work through it. He keeps looking for foul calls when there are no calls and he doesn't have a post game so he's a one trick pony.

[Leetonidas]

Manu has always been one of my favorite players ever and my 2nd favorite Spur behind Timmy, so it really pains me to say he fucking sucks ass and is losing the Finals for us. Make whatever excuse you want but he had 2 points up until it didn't matter anymore and in a pivotal finals game that is inexcusable, you can spin it whatever way you want but Manu has been flat out horrendous and really needs to consider hanging them up. Really saddens me to see someone who you know has so much fire and drive playing like a 50 year old man out there. I love you Manu, but seriously, adjust your game and play within yourself or just call it quits. He's killing the team out there. How many times in this series has he been trapped and tried to throw a pass in midair across the court only to get it deflected or stolen? It's painful to watch

[Leetonidas]

Smitty nailing it in the postgame... he's basically saying because there's no backup PG, Manu has to be the backup PG... a facilitator role. That's just not conducive to him scoring a lot.

Bull-fucking-shit. Manu has played backup PG plenty and has always been a facilitator, gtfo with that ish

[HI-FI]

I'm thoroughly enjoying my stage of denial... I'll probably get to the anger stage before Derrick Rose comes back, tbh

:lmao
i remember arguing with you in game threads or Manu threads how his play was getting worse, but you kept saying Non Issue or saying his teammates are letting him down. Least you are setting a record for longest Stage of Denial.

Manu is one of my favorite players, and tbh, even though his struggles have proven what I said, i still held out hope that he would peak. Maybe he's got something left in him for 3 measly games (possibly 2). I know you are worried about his back and longterm health, but hopefully he can go strong for what is very likely his last Finals ever. At the very least he needs to play smarter.

[smaka]

Lady do you realize what you're saying? It's the FINALS and you're asking for just an average effort?


345679299317202945

Hey look Venti, Jeff reads my posts :lol

[TJastal]

It's difficult for Manu because these refs aren't calling a whole lot of contact, esp on the heat end. The are pretty much letting Wade, Chalmers, James and Allen get away with Derek Fisher-esque swipes and arm slaps on just about everyone, but especially Manu & Tiago. This has caused Manu to stop driving into the paint and also has caused Splitter to start rushing every shot. I've counted about 3 times each for Manu & Tiago, Tony a couple of times, and Duncan once. Every one of them resulted in a turnover and usually a fast break the other way for the heat.

IMO any time a player recklessly swipes down hard attempting to knock the ball loose, 60% of the time they will get some wrist if the player is stationary, and 80% of the time if the player is on the move, yet you see players getting away with this cheap lazy tactic constantly in the nba. IMO this should be called a foul unless that ref is 99.9% sure there was no contact on the wrist/arm and can hear the audible thud of hand slapping ball. That they call it a foul perhaps 1 out of 3 times is ludicrous... it's ugly basketball and it's also one of those nebulus areas of the rules that Stern/refs use to their full advantage to prop up the teams they are backing.

[FkLA]

disappointing ElNono only 12 pages with a thread title like Manu scapegoat as usual, but ...? I mean I was expecting at least 20 pages.

strangely enough in this thread I do share most of FkLA (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17213) opinions :lol

Doubting that Manu is giving it all is beyond ridiculous tbh. Saying he had an ok game is also foolish. Not seeing that Spurs will need more from Manu than being a facilitator is also foolish. At home he can play the facilitator role and stick to it, on the road for a game 6 or 7 he will need to score, counting on Green, Neal, Bonner to score the ball especially late in the game would be suicidal.

If Manu continues to play like that, chance to win is 1%, if Manu plays more aggressive we are probably at 10%.

I don't know if there is a disconnect between Manu and Pop about his role but they need to fix that shit and quick.
If Pop really ASK him to just play PnR, feed the bigs and be a mere facilitator, that's a mistake and Tim, Manu and Tony need to speak up.

Sup, Brazil? WTF is up with our French nigga disappearing after Game 1 especially the second half on Thursday? Can you please tell him to show up for the whole game on Sunday? Ive believed in him this postseason and I hope he doesnt break my heart yet again tbh.

[TJastal]

I also thought it was interesting in game 4, Parker made a circus drive scoop shot just past the outstretched arm of Lebitch and was given a hip check by Lebitch which sent him crashing to the floor and no foul was called. Later on in the same quarter Wade made almost an identical type driving scoop past Tim Duncan, recieved almost the same type of body contact which caused him to crash to the floor and was promptly awarded his AND-1 like it was an automatic no brainer call. Shit just makes me laugh.

[TJastal]

Have you guys also noticed the mysterious 3 second defense techs the spurs have gotten in 2 consecutive games now? When they start breaking those out you know they are getting desperate. :lol

[Brazil]

Sup, Brazil? WTF is up with our French nigga disappearing after Game 1 especially the second half on Thursday? Can you please tell him to show up for the whole game on Sunday? Ive believed in him this postseason and I hope he doesnt break my heart yet again tbh.

Sup FkLA ? Don't worry my nigga Parke is going to deliver, he feels better. Second half he was obviously banged up

[emanueldavidginobili]

Manu ginobili 7.5 ppg in the finals is the lowest in ANY playoff series in his career

[carina_gino20]

I watched the replay and I don't get all the vitriol being spewed at Manu. He had some good passes to TD and Tiago where they threw up weak shots and got blocked or stripped. He didn't make the Spurs miss all those chip shots in the lane. Or turn the ball over egregiously. Or attempted a ton of stupid shots that had no hope of going in.

I agree that his statline is not gonna cut it, especially with TP being hobbled. Yes, it is disappointing. We need more production from him. He has to find a way to get himself going. But reading all the over-the-top hate here is just amazing. You'd think Manu single-handedly gave this game to the Heat.

[Hemotivo]

Elnono with the goods. 100% dead on.

this

[milkyway21]

Maybe time for Manu to follow Duncan's advise in recent interview. Be a little bit selfish with the ball.

[Killakobe81]

Shit drives me nuts when Manu makes long crosscourt passes to people in bad positions. Can't count how many times I have seen Manu throw the ball to Neal in the corner when he had nowhere to go with it, and even worse throwing it too high so that Neal would have to jump to catch them. He made some nice passes today, but is way too wild to be running the offense when Parker is on the bench. Not really sure what the answer is other than hope Parker can play 42-45 quality minutes Sunday.

This. Only one turnover but the type of passes Baseline is describing have been happening way too often this playoffs. Even if it's not an official turnover with the way the Spurs are shooting 3's it's like missing a scoring chance in the redzone or breakaway in hockey/soccer when he trows wild passes off those traps. By throwing it high or off the shooting pocket it allows the Heat to chase and recover after the trap. He needs to be better but I am not sure if it's the Heat, his decline or both. Even a few passes to Splitter allowed the defense the chance to make the block. dont get me wrong, Tiago's gather are as slow as a long shit, but Manu was horrible. And it's this type of stats analysis that drives me nuts. El is one of my favorite posters and I agree no way this is all on Manu ...but OK?! How do you watch that game and say it was OK? I would of benched any PG playing like that for me at least for a few minutes ...

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Since when does the back up PG position mean you can't fucking drive???? You're pulling shit out of your ass to rationalize his play. He's playing the same fucking role he's played for the past 6 years as a Spur and all of a sudden now he's not allowed to drive? Make up your mind - is it his body or is it because he plays this new non driving backup PG position?

Wrong again. How many times can a person be wrong and still be unable to figure it out.... jeezzzz

[Venti Quattro]

Manu's performance tonight is indefensible.

[blkroadrunners]

lol scapegoat

[EIC]

Manu's performance tonight is indefensible.

Actually, it was unfortunately all too defensible.

[ElNono]

Manu's performance tonight is indefensible.

Agreed.

[Splits]

At least he didn't miss a freebie to lose the game

[hommeaetage]

At least he didn't miss a freebie to lose the game
Yes he did. I already knew Kawhi was going to miss, but Manu...?:bang

[EIC]

Agreed.

Wasn't all that different from his performances in any other Finals game not named Game 5, tbh.

[ElNono]

Wasn't all that different from his performances in any other Finals game not named Game 5, tbh.

Actually, it was... turnovers against the Heat is the ultimate sin, tbh... he didn't have more than 3 in any prior game nor lead the team in them...

hope people understand now why I said Game 4 was 'ok' :lol

[hommeaetage]

Manu made some turnovers last night that I did not even think was possible even if one were trying to do it on purpose, tbh

[TheGreatYacht]

Manu made some turnovers last night that I did not even thing was possible even if one were trying to do it on purpose, tbhThose weren't turnovers, they were assists for the Heat.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1017225_206720286147357_207694545_n.jpg

[ElNono]

:lol now I can see why the admins were reluctant to add new posters, tbh..