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boutons
07-15-2005, 03:34 AM
.... maybe it's useful to develop some appreciation for their country! :)

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washingtonpost.com

Buenos Aires, Always in Style

By Cindy Loose
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, July 10, 2005; P01

There's a high beauty quotient among the people of Argentina, and they dress with flair. Even women in jeans have that ability to throw on an ordinary scarf or shawl in such a way that they end up looking elegant.

My friend Pam and I look at each other immediately after arriving on the streets of Buenos Aires. We've been friends since college days -- so long we can sometimes read each other's minds. She says it first: "Haircuts."

We stop in the first salon we pass. At these prices, we might as well get highlights, too. A wash, cut, highlights and blow-dry cost 37 pesos each -- about $13.

Try doing that in Paris, which I've come to think of as the Buenos Aires of Europe.

I came to Argentina last month hoping to find a viable alternative to Europe, where the almighty euro is still giving the U.S. dollar a firm beating, recent gains notwithstanding. I happily anticipated that I would find things cheaper here -- after all, the Argentine peso went into free fall back in 2002. But how exceptional would the bargains be, and would it really be a true substitute -- close enough to the original to satisfy the traveler yearning for a European-style experience?

Matter of fact, during my days and nights in Buenos Aires, I had to keep reminding myself that I was in South America. Walking wide boulevards lined with fine, European-style architecture, past chic restaurants and bistros where people linger over meals, you sometimes feel as if you are in Paris. Late at night, though, the bright lights and indefinable sense of energy in the streets reminded me more of New York -- although New York is much more ethnically diverse. Porteños, as residents of Buenos Aires are called, are predominantly of European extraction.

Basically, visiting Buenos Aires is like going to Europe and finding that everything is half-off American prices. Plus you've got coupons that knock another 20 percent off select goods and services.

Granted, you still have to get there. But our package price of $900 each -- about the cost of airfare to Europe this summer, or to Argentina, for that matter -- included airfare direct from Dulles, six nights in a very nice, centrally located hotel with breakfasts, airport transfers in a private car with a tour guide to greet us, and a half-day bus tour of the city.

If we'd been extremely frugal -- eating in the cheapest restaurants and taking public buses for 30 cents -- we could have gotten by on less than $200 for all other expenses that week. We chose instead to enjoy a few affordable luxuries. This included taking cabs (after all, the meters start at 55 cents), great meals in beautiful settings, a day trip out of the city and an overnight trip to an estancia, one of the many former estates where the wealthiest aristocrats of Argentine society once lived and trained their polo ponies during the months they were not vacationing in Europe.

Unfortunately, we couldn't ignore the bargains in shop windows. After all, our salon "savings" alone could buy us three or four pairs of fashionable leather shoes, or four or five stylish woolen sweaters, or maybe a pair of those boots of buttery soft pigskin, with a purse to match.

Of course, this tourist windfall comes at the expense of the Argentine people who, despite a stable government at the moment, still struggle with the fallout of many years of inept and corrupt leadership. Just a few years ago, the Argentine peso was pegged to the American dollar, one for one. During our trip, banks were giving about 2.8 pesos for one dollar. Even that apparently did not reflect the true state of the peso: Most shops and restaurants were happy to take American dollars and give a flat three-to-one exchange.

Yet the city -- or at least the central areas that tourists frequent -- shows few, if any, signs of the financial collapse that the country has endured. Restaurants, bars and tango venues are filled with locals. Parks and buildings both public and private seem wellkept. You see fewer obviously destitute people than you would in similar neighborhoods in American cities. Although the U.S. State Department warns of petty crime, I feel safe walking in busy downtown neighborhoods both day and night.

I repeatedly wonder aloud how the city and so many of its inhabitants can continue to look so good. The answer that keeps coming back boils down to this: Looking good is a central tenet of the culture in this country that was once one of the richest on Earth. When Argentine actor Fernando Lamas would repeat his familiar phrase, "You look mahvelous, darling" -- a phrase famously vamped by comedian Billy Crystal -- he was summing up the ethos of his country.

Perhaps native-born Patricia Foster gives the best insight into current-day Argentina. Foster, who works long hours managing a tourist ranch about two hours outside the city, is one of those classy women who throw on a shawl and look as if they just stepped out of a Town & Country ad. Life is tough, she says, and she's lucky to have a job. Unlike her parents did with her, she is unable to help her grown daughter, whose monthly earnings don't even pay her rent. But it's important to keep up appearances.

"We live here like in the theater," Foster says. I must say: It's a very good show.

Walk-a-Thon

The Spanish were the first European settlers to arrive and conquer here, and some of the churches built by Jesuit missionaries remain in Buenos Aires. But subsequent waves of European immigrants have left their mark. There are about as many Italian restaurants in the city as there are steakhouses, and you can raise a glass in an Irish tavern with a Spanish-speaking O'Donnell or Flaherty, or have a German strudel in a cafe in an old French mansion.

About 9 million of Argentina's 37 million people live in and near the port city, which boasts 47 separate and distinct neighborhoods.

When I learn that our hotel is in the central business district, I assume it will be a long walk from anything other than canyons of office buildings. But it turns out Buenos Aires doesn't have soulless high-rise neighborhoods. The ground floors of office buildings are used for retail, so our hotel on Reconquista is surrounded with chic stores and restaurants, the streets lively with pedestrians from early morning until late at night. As long as we stash our cameras and keep our mouths shut, Pam and I are mistaken for locals. People handing out fliers trying to entice us into restaurants or stores routinely address us in Spanish. When it becomes clear we're from the United States, we get an enthusiastic greeting. Argentines, we're told, still remember with gratitude Jimmy Carter's call for human rights at a time they were under the thumbs of a right-wing military dictatorship. They still fondly recall that then-first lady Hillary Clinton met with the mothers and grandmothers of "the disappeared." (Amnesty International has documented the disappearance of 9,000 people at the hands of the military dictatorship that ruled from 1976 to 1983. Estimates of disappearances range up to 40,000. Each Thursday, mothers of the disappeared rally at the Plaza de Maya, reminding the current government that they still seek answers to the fate of family members who vanished.)

Although we've taken an 11-hour, overnight flight from Dulles, the one-hour time difference means no jet lag, and we hit the streets immediately upon arrival.

We quickly realize we don't have to plan our days. Like a handful of great cities around the world, Buenos Aires is a place where you can walk aimlessly and be assured of finding numerous things of interest. It's got that palpable sense of energy: Street performers pop up all over the city, and dozens of museums and other attractions are concentrated in several downtown neighborhoods. Our meandering path on our first day through the Centro and Retiro neighborhoods leads past museums dedicated to art, crime and forensics, photography, city history, currency, ethnography. Given that entrance fees range from 30 cents to a couple of dollars, you can pop in and out without feeling obligated to absorb every detail of every exhibit.

We've planned our trip so that we'll be free on a Sunday, to take in the San Telmo market. The neighborhood is considered slightly dicey at night, but on Sundays, it feels as if all of Buenos Aires has gathered for a massive street fair.

A brochure we've picked up at a downtown information kiosk lists the addresses of 92 clubs for dancing tango, the sultry heart and most internationally recognized symbol of Buenos Aires. But if your interest in tango is casual and you just want to see a few couples perform, you'll find them here on the streets, dancing for tips.

Classical guitarists are also playing for tips. Miming is a popular art form here, and costumes are elaborate. I didn't know there were so many mimes in the entire world. It's as if they had an international convention here, and everyone stayed.

And of course the main attraction: stuff. The market offers new, used and antique goods of every conceivable variety. I'm tantalized by big things -- garden sculptures, elaborately decorated wrought iron gates, old wooden doors for which I have no use but love anyway, and huge copper pots and pans. I settle on some easily packed handmade jewelry, and vow to return some day for the pots.

For four days and four nights, we walk. Most of the time we have no specific destination in mind but simply explore neighborhoods. The most elegant and most unabashedly European: the adjoining neighborhoods of Recoleta and Palermo.

The French-style mansions in Recoleta date from the early 19th century, testimony to the vast wealth that once poured into Buenos Aires from the nearby pampas, or fertile grasslands. The neighborhood is perhaps most famous abroad for being home to the Recoleta Cemetery. The historic, 10-acre cemetery is crowded with about 7,000 grand mausoleums housing Argentina's elite. With the help of a cemetery groundskeeper, we find the gravesite of Eva Peron. Fifty years after her death, she remains a controversial national figure, but she clearly has her long-enduring fans, judging from the flowers they place in the iron filigree of the mausoleum doors.

Perhaps the greatest testament to the fabled wealth and cultural stature of Buenos Aires: Teatro Colon, the world-renowned, 2,500-seat opera house opened in 1908. Its auditorium, in French baroque style, is lauded by opera and symphony buffs for superb acoustics. The walls of the foyer are made with three kinds of European marble; the floors are mosaics of Venetian tiles; overhead is a Parisian-style stained-glass dome.

The great stars of the opera have all sung here: Maria Callas, Enrico Caruso, Luciano Pavarotti. Mikhail Baryshnikov called it "the most beautiful of the theaters I know," and Baryshnikov knows some theaters.

Open for guided tours, the opera house is also home to the city's ballet and opera companies and three orchestras. A good seat for the opera costs about $35, or you can buy a cheap seat for little more than a dollar.

My favorite spot in the city: the riverside promenade in Puerto Madero, an old warehouse district turned into a modern, hip neighborhood. Hovering over the neighborhood like a giant bird about to take flight is a gleaming white footbridge designed by Santiago Calatrava, the highly lauded Spanish architect whose awards include the 2005 Gold Medal from the American Institute of Architects. Calatrava, whose work was chosen for inclusion in the rebuilding at New York's World Trade Center site, has created a bridge that is a poetic vision of a tall ship, with teak flooring, lights reminiscent of portholes, and soaring beams and cables that are like masts and rigging. In the evening, lights from the bridge shimmer on the river. In the day, natural light bounces off the water and plays along the surface of the bridge.
Life on the Estancia

The Estancia La Porteña, about 90 miles outside Buenos Aires, is a vivid reminder of the great wealth and power once enjoyed by Argentine aristocrats. In the early 20th century, the estancia, or ranch, covered 14,826 acres, or more than 23 square miles.

Today, the ranch occupies about 700 acres. Polo star Manuel Guiraldes, grand-nephew of Argentine writer Ricardo Guiraldes, still trains polo ponies on the estancia, but takes in guests at the colonial-style home on the grounds. It is one of about 1,000 estancias in Argentina that allows guests to experience a taste of the aristocratic life, typically for about $90 per person per night, including meals, alcoholic drinks and horseback riding.

We'll be staying down the road at La Bamba, the first estancia to open its doors to paying guests and one of three just outside the appealing little colonial town of San Antonio de Areco. Totally torn about which of the three we should have chosen, we decide to at least see all three.

Manuel's wife, Queca, meets us outside the stables, where polo ponies are being saddled, and shows us the grounds, including a Parisian-designed garden and stands of sycamore trees, pines and larches. The property is laced with wooded riding trails. Inside, each guest room has a fireplace and is furnished with country antiques. Guests are also welcome to lounge and read in the studio where Guiraldes, who died in 1927, wrote his books about the life of the gauchos (Argentine cowboys), or in the living room where the writer's grand-nephew displays his polo trophies.

I'm filled with envy at the pastoral life lived on a former estate, but Keka tells me somewhat wistfully that life here is very different from that of two generations ago. "They used to live six months in Paris, six months in Argentina," she says. "They sent their children to Switzerland or England to be educated."

We head to our estancia, La Bamba, about 10 miles from La Porteña. We've hired a driver to take us from Buenos Aires, after numerous people warned us against taking on manic traffic in and just outside the city. He turns up a long lane lined with towering sycamore trees, and we enter the life of country ease. Hammocks hang between trees next to a swimming pool on the property's vast lawn. Hundreds of parrots and parakeets flit through the air, which is filled with the smell of beef roasting over an open wood fire.

We're greeted by one of the owners, Isabel Aldao, who tells us we have time for a ride before lunch. We mount with the help of a gaucho, who leads us to the nearest estancia, La Ombu, a couple of miles away.

As our horses trot along a dirt road on the vast empty plain, I feel as if I've entered a time warp. The feeling grows when we come within sight of Estancia El Ombu, where a colonial mansion built in 1880 by an Argentine general sits on a wide expanse of parklike lawn dotted with oaks, palms, eucalyptus, magnolias and a massive native tree, the ombu. Wisteria in bloom hang from the balustrades of a two-story porch that wraps around the mansion.

We take a quick tour of the elegant rooms and -- still divided about which of the three estancias is best -- ride back to La Bamba. There, employees have set up tables with white tablecloths on the lawn and are passing out hors d'oeuvres. With other guests who have come from Buenos Aires just for the day, we dine in the style of aristocrats, with wine from the area's malbec grapes and great slabs of beef slowly cooked over an open fire.

La Bamba, its main house a sprawling, one-story adobe building painted a pinkish red, was built in 1830 to serve as a post house along the Camino Real, the road that linked Buenos Aires to the pampas and the northern reaches of the country. A brick gaucho bar, or pulperia , a few yards from the house serves as a gathering place for residents who ride from town and from nearby ranches on weekends to socialize. "You feel you are living in the 1880s," says Isabel, whose father opened La Bamba in 1986 as a guest-house.

We lie in hammocks watching some of the 200 species of birds that frequent the estancia, as day guests mount horses or take horse-drawn carriage rides. When they return, we all gather in the pulperia for a show. Four expert performers demonstrate typical gaucho folk dancing, then invite guests to join them in tango.

On this weekday visit, we happen to be the only overnight guests, so it feels as if we own the place. Our evening is spent quietly reading before a roaring fire, to cut the chill after sundown, and on walks beneath a starlit sky. It's the height of elegance, country style.
A Good Fit

On our last day in the city, before an evening flight, I return to a shop near my hotel to try on a leather jacket I've been admiring all week. Turns out it doesn't fit. No problem, says the saleswoman. A seamstress appears, takes my measurements, offers me a selection of leather to choose from and heads to the factory. She promises me a tailored, handmade jacket, for $140, by 4 p.m.

While Pam goes off for a manicure -- $2.50 plus tip -- I settle in for a proper English tea in an elegant tearoom in the Carlton Hotel. The world passes by the window outside my table in the room with mahogany wainscoting as I eat finger sandwiches, scones with cream, and jam and pastries from a tiered silver platter. It costs me about $7. Those on less forgiving budgets are welcome to linger at the table and share the food; the second person simply orders tea. That way, it's tea for two for about $8.50 -- an economy measure that Argentines are enjoying at tables all around me.

Normal life will soon overtake me when I head back home. But at the moment, I am feeling, and perhaps even looking, marvelous.

Details: Buenos Aires

GETTING THERE: United has nonstops to Buenos Aires from Dulles, currently for $1,247, and flights that connect in Miami or Atlanta are offered from all three Washington area airports by American, Delta and Air Canada. One-stop fares are starting at $860 round trip, but Web specials sometimes drop as low as $650.

GETTING AROUND: An extensive bus and subway network offers cheap transport, with tickets starting at about 25 cents. Taxis are also a relative bargain: the meter starts at just over 50 cents. But because of safety concerns, don't flag down street taxis; call or hail radio cabs from reputable companies, including Radio Taxi Sur (011-54-11-463-82000), Radio Taxi 5 Minutos (011-54-11-4523-1200) and Radio Taxi Diez (011-54-11-4585-5007).

To visit an estancia (ranch) near San Antonio de Areco, a car and driver (which can be arranged independently or through the estancia you are visiting) generally costs about $50 each way. There are also comfortable modern buses from the city to San Antonio de Areco, and the estancia owner can pick you up there. My preference: Have a driver pick you up at your hotel the morning of your departure, instead of wasting time finding the bus station. After your estancia stay, ask for a drop-off at the colonial town of San Antonio de Areco, buy a ticket (about $5) for a later bus trip back to the city, and spend a pleasant afternoon visiting the town, its gaucho museum and silver shops. Shops owned by artisans are spread out and can be hard to find. You can arrange a personal tour, for $15 (half-day) or $25 (full day), by contacting Magdalena Ramirez at [email protected] .

WHEN TO GO: Buenos Aires has a mild climate. Average temperatures in January, the hottest month: about 74 degrees. June, July and August are the coldest; average temperatures all three months are about 50 degrees. The shoulder seasons -- spring and fall -- are perhaps the best time to visit the city. Of course, if you plan to use the city as a springboard for visiting other parts of the country, plan for temperature variations as drastic as those in the United States.

ESTANCIAS: The three guest estancias in San Antonio de Areco are Estancia la Bamba (011-54-2326-456-293, http://www.la-bamba.com.ar ); El Ombu de Areco (011-54-11-4710- 2795, http://www.estanciaelombu.com ); and Estancia la Porteña (011-54-2326-453770, http://www.estancialaportenia.com.ar ). Overnight visits -- meals, tea and riding included -- start at about $95 per person in a bedroom or apartment. You can also arrange to visit for the day and have lunch, then stay in the town of San Antonio de Areco, where a double room in the simple but pleasant La Aurora (387 Matheu, 011-54-2326-45-4219) begins at about $30 a night, including breakfast.

AIR/HOTEL PACKAGES: My Web search turned up packages beginning at about $850 for a week's stay, but in some cases required two connections, and in others charged a single supplement for both my friend and me because our trips originated in different cities. Frustrated, I turned to a travel agent. At Travel Place in Potomac (301-299-4850), an agent familiar with Buenos Aires found a $900 six-night package with a nonstop flight from Dulles, and no single supplements. Find other travel agents, who typically do not charge a fee for packages, through the American Society of Travel Agents at http://www.astanet.com .

Check under "Packages" in this week's "What's the Deal?" column (Page P3) for a $649 Buenos Aires package from Miami.

WHERE TO EAT: The average citizen in Argentina consumes 130 pounds of beef a year -- more than twice as much as Americans. One of the most popular steakhouses: La Cabaña Las Lilas (516 Ave. Alicia Moreau de Justo, in Puerto Madero). Entrees begin at about $10. A hip choice: Radioset (1130 Ave. Alicia Moreau de Justo, Puerto Madero), where disc jockeys and radio personalities broadcast live from glassed booths within the restaurant. Entrees begin at about $8.

Posada de 1820 ( 501 Tucuman, in Centro) not only served me a good meal -- beef and pasta are specialties -- but also tracked me down somehow at my hotel to return the credit card I'd left on the table. Entrees begin at about $7. The Italian restaurant Campo dei Fiori (1411 Venezuela) is a bit off the beaten path in an old neighborhood called Montserrat, but a favorite of locals, with a wide selection of pastas and sauces, priced separately. A plate of pasta and sauce starts at about $6. Las Nazarenes (1132 Reconquista, in Retiro) is a high-quality, old-line beef restaurant with an exceptionally friendly staff. Entrees start at about $8. For a proper English tea, try the Claridge Hotel (535 Tucuman, in Centro, 011-54-11-4314-7700), for $7 per person.

If you make it to San Antonio de Areco, you'll find a number of charming but very inexpensive restaurants, including Almacen de Ramos Generales (143 Zapiola, http://www.ramosgeneralesareco.com.ar ), where entrees start at about $5.

WHERE TO STAY: You can't go too wrong if you choose a hotel in the lively, centrally located neighborhoods of Centro, Retiro, Palermo or Recoleta. I was happy at the Reconquista Plaza (602 Tucuman, 011-54-11-4311-4600, http://www.reconquistaplaza.com.ar ), although light sleepers may be bothered by street noise. Prices for a double begin at about $90 a night -- another measure of the value of a package.

For the ultimate in luxury, the newly opened Faena Hotel (445 Martha Salotti in Puerto Madero, 011-54-11-4010-9000, http://www.faenahotelanduniverse.com ) is stunning. Designer Philippe Starck teamed with Argentine clothing designer Alan Faena to turn an old warehouse into a boutique hotel. Double rooms start at $315 a night. Or better yet, sleep cheap and try a day pass to the Faena's luxurious Turkish bath.

ALVAREZ6
07-15-2005, 12:45 PM
Great article.

Makes me wanna go back and visit...

hendrix
07-17-2005, 01:18 PM
What?? No visit to Rosario? Those chicks are lame. :)
But in general, nice article. I bet GrandeDavid is plannig a trip here himself to avoid taling nonsenses about Argentina all day.

spurschick
07-17-2005, 04:32 PM
Basically, visiting Buenos Aires is like going to Europe and finding that everything is half-off American prices. Plus you've got coupons that knock another 20 percent off select goods and services.

June, July and August are the coldest; average temperatures all three months are about 50 degrees.

Sounds like a great place to spend summers away from hot San Antonio. I really hope to make a trip down there one day.

diego
07-17-2005, 08:16 PM
one "mistake" in the article...

while the article makes it sound like argentines are grateful to america because of amnesty international and jimmy carter and hilary clinton "taking a stand" against the dictatorship and human rights abuses...

most Argentines are also aware that Nixon and Kissinger helped General Videla get in power in the first place; the collaboration was so that Ford car factories were used as torture centers. Not to mention that many of the torturers were trained with US tax dollars at the School of the Americas in Georgia, now relocated to some caribbean "country" (i think panama- go look up panama's history and you will see why i call it a "country") with some fancy name like the GeoHemispheric Center for International Security. they continue training paramilataries to hunt torture and kill "marxists"

and second, while it is true that internal corruption had a lot to do with the 2001 economic meltdown (wrongly attributed to 2002 in the article), the IMF also played a key role in installing the 1-1 conversion rate, not to mention that the money lent to the dictatorship by Nixon is where most of argentina's debt came from, and last but not least the multinationals and banks that are paying the bribes are from the US and Europe (most recent and well documented cases: IBM and Citibank winning public licitations by bribing public officials who promptly pocketed the money). But the worst of all was the banks, who sucked out billions of dollars out of the country hours before a "quarantine" was placed on them to prevent collapse; civilians lost access to their saving while multinationals and banks were able to escape with other peoples money thanks to their inside connections.

all i mean to say by this, is that Argentines have been through a lot of shit, and for right or wrong reasons they see a lot of that shit coming from the US. I wouldn't tell you to expect outright hostility, but I would recommend being aware of some of the recent history and be prepared for people to question your stance on some of these issues. I think women in general have an easier time in this sense but I know of some people who had a bad time because they were uninformed (i also know of worse cases in europe- spain, france)

still, you should go, and enjoy the culture, its better than europe, especially if you like to party!
:smokin :drunk :spin

MaNuMaNiAc
07-17-2005, 08:27 PM
one "mistake" in the article...

while the article makes it sound like argentines are grateful to america because of amnesty international and jimmy carter and hilary clinton "taking a stand" against the dictatorship and human rights abuses...

most Argentines are also aware that Nixon and Kissinger helped General Videla get in power in the first place; the collaboration was so that Ford car factories were used as torture centers. Not to mention that many of the torturers were trained with US tax dollars at the School of the Americas in Georgia, now relocated to some caribbean "country" (i think panama- go look up panama's history and you will see why i call it a "country") with some fancy name like the GeoHemispheric Center for International Security. they continue training paramilataries to hunt torture and kill "marxists"

and second, while it is true that internal corruption had a lot to do with the 2001 economic meltdown (wrongly attributed to 2002 in the article), the IMF also played a key role in installing the 1-1 conversion rate, not to mention that the money lent to the dictatorship by Nixon is where most of argentina's debt came from, and last but not least the multinationals and banks that are paying the bribes are from the US and Europe (most recent and well documented cases: IBM and Citibank winning public licitations by bribing public officials who promptly pocketed the money). But the worst of all was the banks, who sucked out billions of dollars out of the country hours before a "quarantine" was placed on them to prevent collapse; civilians lost access to their saving while multinationals and banks were able to escape with other peoples money thanks to their inside connections.

all i mean to say by this, is that Argentines have been through a lot of shit, and for right or wrong reasons they see a lot of that shit coming from the US. I wouldn't tell you to expect outright hostility, but I would recommend being aware of some of the recent history and be prepared for people to question your stance on some of these issues. I think women in general have an easier time in this sense but I know of some people who had a bad time because they were uninformed (i also know of worse cases in europe- spain, france)

still, you should go, and enjoy the culture, its better than europe, especially if you like to party!
:smokin :drunk :spin That's bullshit! I'm not questioning your facts, but I strongly disagree about what you said about the hostility! Most educated people over here wouldn't think of giving American tourists a hard time because of what the American government has done! That's just plain ludicrous!! and next time you want to talk politics, do it in the right forum why don't ya.

manubili
07-17-2005, 11:46 PM
Wow! I dind't know I had lived in such a wonderful city for 30 years!
I have to go out more often. Diego is right, but the vast majority of tourists are well treated. Tourist means fresh dollars or euros to local people.

I suppose that any american tourist is aware that they come from the most powerful and hated country in the world. So, if the conversation turns into politics, beware. Mr Bush isn't the most popular parson arround here, I mean, the rest of the world.

It's time to organize trips to Bahia Blanca or Cordoba. ¡We should start Basketball-related argentinean tourism market!

You know: tango, leather, and a photograph in front of Manu's house.

diego
07-18-2005, 07:29 AM
manumania, i only posted that because the article makes it sound like argentines just LOVE americans (as if Hilary Clinton and Amnesty International (which I happen to contribute to) atone for Kissinger and Nixon).

you know as well as I that is not entirely true, especially after the economic collapse there was a lot of backlash and people should be informed. I never said whether it was right or wrong, but there are people that blame the countries problems on the US, a majority that blame it on both Argentines and foreign influence (the most sensible choice), and another extreme that blames it exclusively on Argentines. Its just the way it is, nearly everywhere.

MaNuMaNiAc
07-18-2005, 06:37 PM
manumania, i only posted that because the article makes it sound like argentines just LOVE americans (as if Hilary Clinton and Amnesty International (which I happen to contribute to) atone for Kissinger and Nixon).

you know as well as I that is not entirely true, especially after the economic collapse there was a lot of backlash and people should be informed. I never said whether it was right or wrong, but there are people that blame the countries problems on the US, a majority that blame it on both Argentines and foreign influence (the most sensible choice), and another extreme that blames it exclusively on Argentines. Its just the way it is, nearly everywhere.
I know there are people that blame the US, that I'm not contesting, what I am disagreeing with is the notion that people will give Americans a hard time because of what the American government might have done! Only stupid, senseless people would ever think of doing that, and I would rather believe we Argentinians are above that kind of idiotic behavior!

diego
07-18-2005, 06:54 PM
i wish my friend, but stupid idiotic people exist everywhere. right now I'm in a good mood so i wont say they are the majority!!

I only mentioned it because i know some people (ok, only 2 separate incidents, but still, the article makes it sound like utopia) who had problems, but I know in general it is not common

I know of incidents in spain, realmente de locos, grupos de minas que las asaltaron por ser gringas, no les robaron ni nada, les cagaron a palos directamente

anyways no matter what it is better to be informed, right?

spurschick
07-18-2005, 07:00 PM
I know there are people that blame the US, that I'm not contesting, what I am disagreeing with is the notion that people will give Americans a hard time because of what the American government might have done!!

Word :tu

Manu'sMagicalLeftHand
07-18-2005, 08:41 PM
Yeah, and even if there is people that doesn't like Americans, it won't go any further than a giving them a bad look. I haven't heard of someone beating or insulting an American because of their nationality in Argentina, I don't think you could say the same about other countries in the Americas or Europe.

Unless you land in the middle of Buenos Aires from an helicopter, with an M-16 on your hand, and the stripes and stars in the other, you won't have any problems.

I know many Argentinians who live in the US, and a few Americans who live or visit Argentina, and the major difference is politics. In a recent global survey, the results showed that Argentina was the Western Country where George Bush has the worst image, followed closely by Brazil. But speaking about common people, there is no problem.

Manu'sMagicalLeftHand
07-18-2005, 08:57 PM
By the way, a couple of links if someone is really interested in visiting our country:

http://www.turismo.gov.ar/

http://www.bue.gov.ar/home/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onelife/travel/atoz/argentina.shtml

http://www.geographia.com/argentina/index.html

http://www.argentour.com/

http://travel.guardian.co.uk/countries/information/0,8766,415658,00.html

http://www.visitingargentina.com/eng/index.php

spurschick
07-18-2005, 09:12 PM
Unless you land in the middle of Buenos Aires from an helicopter, with an M-16 on your hand, and the stripes and stars in the other, you won't have any problems.

Damn... and I had it all planned. :lol

Thanks for the links!