IF Lebron loses again, where do you guys rank him?

[Thebesteva]

It's a huge IF and I still have Lechoke winning this series. However, if he loses again that makes it 3 losses in the Finals and only 1 ring. He's not that young actually, and has played 11 years in the league. I know there is still alot of career left and he has time to catch up, but that's going to be REALLY hard to bounce back from if he loses again.

Will you have him on the same list as guys like Magic, Jordan, etc when all is said and done or no?

Personally, I think the guy HAS to win 4-5 to be mentioned in that same breathe.

[Venti Quattro]

Not above Kobe for sure

[jeebus]

He's definitely one of the top 1000 best players in the country but that's about it.

[LA24]

Not above Kobe for sure

[Thebesteva]

He's definitely one of the top 1000 best players in the country but that's about it.

http://www.zawarudo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/mind-blown-2.gif

[HarlemHeat37]

Top 12 career-wise, #3 peak-wise(2012)..

Choking in the Finals in 2011 took him out of the Jordan convo, and choking again in 2013 eliminates him from the Kareem/Magic/Duncan(after he wins his 5th) tier, but he's still in reach of everybody else..

[Thebesteva]

Top 12 career-wise, #3 peak-wise(2012)..

Would you have him past Timmy if Tim wins this year and Lebron ends up with 4 rings?

[DMC]

Ask at LG.com, I'm sure they are just as anxious as you guys to protect your facade of a hero. Most of us aren't trying to protect our heroes, we just want another ring for them, not for us to brag about them.

[BobaFett1]

I Put him in the Sixer teams of 80's class. Chokers,

[Thebesteva]

Ask at LG.com, I'm sure they are just as anxious as you guys to protect your facade of a hero. Most of us aren't trying to protect our heroes, we just want another ring for them, not for us to brag about them.

LOL DMC...taking out his frustations of getting cuckolded

http://www.yourmodernliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/cheatingwife1.jpg

[Thebesteva]

http://www.pratik.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/080809_1656_VodafoneHap1.jpg

[Thebesteva]

http://www.teluguone.com/tonecmsuserfiles/Cheating%20Wife%20Joke(1).jpg

[Thebesteva]

http://zambiaonlinenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cheating-man.jpg

[DMC]

You certainly aren't going to save Kobe through Kobe's wins. You're just hoping the other guy loses for no other reason than to salvage your shitty trolling attempts that are so weak that even LG doesn't bite.

[Thebesteva]

http://www.deerparkdivorcelawyers.com/images/deer-park-lawyer-cheating-spouse-divorce.jpg

[Thebesteva]

You certainly aren't going to save Kobe through Kobe's wins. You're just hoping the other guy loses for no other reason than to salvage your shitty trolling attempts that are so weak that even LG doesn't bite.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deQEWp0Exxc

[Squirtle(Westbrook)]

thebesteva

[midnightpulp]

12-17ish. In the Dirk/West/Moses Malone tier.

-If Wade carries Miami through these next two games to a championship, I have Lebron knocking on the door of the top 10 (still can't ignore the fact Lebron stepped up against Indiana, while Wade had one of the worst playoff series of his career).

-If Lebron get historic on us with some 35-10-8 type efforts and wills Miami to the title, he's in the top 10 for sure. The media will probably rank him as high as 5th, but for me, he'll be in the Shaq/Bird/Duncan/Kobe/Hakeem tier.

[Rogue]

It's kind of a misfortune for him, that he spent his first 7 years in NBA playing for a shitty franchise, and after he moved to Miami to join his friends, he had to play under a shithead coach. Had bron started his career on a great team (lakers, spurs, or even dallas) he would've already won more rings than GOAT probably

[jimbo]

Still where he was at before this series started. Fringe 10. Making it to the finals and losing doesn't lower you any in my books, it's still better than 2nd round knockouts.

Can someone reminds me how many finals Magic lost with stacked ass teams?

[DMC]

Still where he was at before this series started. Fringe 10. Making it to the finals and losing doesn't lower you any in my books, it's still better than 2nd round knockouts.

Can someone reminds me how many finals Magic lost with stacked ass teams?

That depends. If you lose because you choke on the big stage and that's proven time and again, even if you get there over and over you're only verifying your ability to dance until it matters, like the dancing/singing frog on Bugs Bunny. Everybody loves the Michigan Rag.

[Bynumite]

James has the individual hardware but he also has some of the biggest drop offs in production from the regular season to the Finals among all time greats.

4 MVPs and 1 of 3 in Finals, possibly 4, that doesn't help his case. He's playing with a stacked team even if some players underperform during certain games.

[midnightpulp]

James has the individual hardware but he also has some of the biggest drop offs in production from the regular season to the Finals among all time greats.

4 MVPs and 1 of 3 in Finals, possibly 4, that doesn't help his case. He's playing with a stacked team even if some players underperform during certain games.

And that excuse is no longer valid for James since Bosh and Wade, who has looked like a mini-Jordan incarnate lately, have held up their end in these last two games. And say if the Spurs weren't unconscious tonight and Miami won the game, Wade would've been the hero tonight, as he was last game.

[jimbo]

That depends. If you lose because you choke on the big stage and that's proven time and again, even if you get there over and over you're only verifying your ability to dance until it matters, like the dancing/singing frog on Bugs Bunny. Everybody loves the Michigan Rag.

At the same time, you've also proved you're a pretty good dancer if you can dance for that long. Even if you're dancing sloppily in June, you're better than the guy who stopped in May who never got the chance to dance on the main stage.

Losing just happens sometimes when you're playing a superior "team." The big 3 vs big 3 narrative is overrated also at that. Miami's big 3 outplayed ours and the Spurs still won. No matter how talented an individual is, the game is still a team game.

Whether or not if it's a choke doesn't depend on the frequency of losing in the finals, but rather how the actual games played out and the player's impact in those games.

[lefty]

Above Kobe because he has actually led a team to the Finals

[Killakobe81]

Still where he was at before this series started. Fringe 10. Making it to the finals and losing doesn't lower you any in my books, it's still better than 2nd round knockouts.

Can someone reminds me how many finals Magic lost with stacked ass teams?

Only one of those (1984) could be considered a "choke". Losing to the Celts, Sixers, Pistons of the 80's is far different than losing to a past it's prime Spur team (with all due respect, Spurs have been amazing). But those teams 83 Sixers, 84 Celts 89 Pistons would beat the shit out of either Finals teams tbh ...and in fact would beat ever Finals team of the past 10 yeasr including the back2back Lakers, Heat Mavs or 2008 Celts.

[Thebesteva]

Above Kobe because he has actually led a team to the Finals

2008-2010 tbh. In 2008-2009 it wasn't even a debate, 2010 you can make the case Pau was better in the Celtics series ONLY @ home. He was a complete pussy on the road.

[jimbo]

Only one of those (1984) could be considered a "choke". Losing to the Celts, Sixers, Pistons of the 80's is far different than losing to a past it's prime Spur team (with all due respect, Spurs have been amazing). But those teams 83 Sixers, 84 Celts 89 Pistons would beat the shit out of either Finals teams tbh ...and in fact would beat ever Finals team of the past 10 yeasr including the back2back Lakers, Heat Mavs or 2008 Celts.

I only brought it up because there wasn't a distinction made between loss and choke. Lebron lost the 2007 finals but didn't choke. Lebron choked in 2011. You could make an argument for Lebron not choking in these finals depending on how the next 2 games go. (Even if the Heat lose)

[whitemamba]

Above Kobe because he has actually led a team to the Finals

mexico today :lol

[lefty]

mexico today :lol
WTF does that have to do Mexico :wtf

[whitemamba]

WTF does that have to do Mexico :wtf

you didnt watch the game today?

[Jacob1983]

It will probably drop him out of ever being in the top 20 and definitely out of the top 10. He can still be in the top 50. And he is below Dirk in my opinion. Dirk is for 1 for 2 in the Finals. Right now Lebron is 1 for 3. if Lebron loses, he will be 1 for 4. A player that has won one Finals out of 4 appearances is not worthy of being in the top 20 or top 10 in my opinion.

[AchillesHeel]

Top 25-30 range, he had a chance to surpass Kobe at around 20th but if he loses he's no better than Dirk, and Dirk was 1-2 in the Finals. 4 mvps don't erase 3 Final failures, 2 of them on a stacked roster.

[Jacob1983]

Dirk won his ring against a heavily favored Miami Heat team and let's not forget that the Mavs didn't have HCA too. Lebron won his ring in a shitty 66 game season and without having to face a Derek Rose led Bulls team too. Dirk is better than Lebron.

[lefty]

you didnt watch the game today?
yes

And ?

[FkLA]

2nd GOAT instead of GOAT tbh

Hell win plenty after this year.

[AchillesHeel]

Dirk won his ring against a heavily favored Miami Heat team and let's not forget that the Mavs didn't have HCA too. Lebron won his ring in a shitty 66 game season and without having to face a Derek Rose led Bulls team too. Dirk is better than Lebron.

Lebron loses and I agree with you 100%. Lebron will never have a playoff run like Dirk had in 2011. Not only did he shoot almost 50% from 3 and I believe like 95% on free throws, he put up 28 a game and went through some of the toughest teams ever. Sweeping Achilles and Pjax was an achievement already, making the big 3 cry however was the greatest playoff moment since ever.

[HarlemHeat37]

Lebron in 2012 was a much better run than Dirk in 2011, and I'm a Dirk fan:lol..

Lebron has 2 Finals failures..anybody that holds 2007 against him is an imbecile:lol..a player leads the worst supporting cast in Finals history to the Finals and people hold it against him when they get expectedly get murdered?..

To lead this Heat team to the Finals, Lebron had to be one of, if not the only player in NBA history to lead a Finals team in playoff points, rebounds, assists and steals..it's easy to criticize a player's failure and ignore the circumstances..

[Jacob1983]

Lebron's championship is a mini one since it was in a 66 game season. We can have a discussion about his greatness when he wins a championship in an 82 game season.

[AchillesHeel]

Lebron in 2012 was a much better run than Dirk in 2011, and I'm a Dirk fan:lol..

Lebron has 2 Finals failures..anybody that holds 2007 against him is an imbecile:lol..a player leads the worst supporting cast in Finals history to the Finals and people hold it against him when they get expectedly get murdered?..

To lead this Heat team to the Finals, Lebron had to be one of, if not the only player in NBA history to lead a Finals team in playoff points, rebounds, assists and steals..it's easy to criticize a player's failure and ignore the circumstances..

:lol troll

Lebron's 2012 run was in a lockout season, without Wade they're not even getting past Indiana, tbh.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovlaSMsbGY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeokdGfujA

[HarlemHeat37]

Lebron made so much statistical history in the 2012 playoffs, it would take me 30 minutes to list everything he did, tbh:lol..

Along with being Miami's #1 scorer, he was also their leading rebounder, passer and defensive anchor, too:lol..

Only Jordan in '91 and Shaq in 2000 were better IMO, with '03 Duncan and maybe '94 Hakeem being close..

[spurraider21]

wherever Kobe is put Lebron 1 spot higher

[dg7md]

If his career is on-par like the one he had this year for the next 3-4 years, he will be a top 25 player. The lack of team success and failures in clutch moments will knock him down from top 10 contention.

While Duncan, if we do win this series, is a lock for top 15 (10 maybe) of all time players imo

[Venti Quattro]

wherever Kobe is put Lebron 1 spot higher

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[AchillesHeel]

Lebron made so much statistical history in the 2012 playoffs, it would take me 30 minutes to list everything he did, tbh:lol..

Along with being Miami's #1 scorer, he was also their leading rebounder, passer and defensive anchor, too:lol..

Only Jordan in '91 and Shaq in 2000 were better IMO, with '03 Duncan and maybe '94 Hakeem being close..

2012 run was one of the best statistically, but opponent-wise had some of the weakest competition ever. A Knicks team that plays 0 defense and has 4 players injured, interim HC from mid-season
a tough Pacers team that took a lead on them and would have won if Wade didn't show up, an old Boston team with injured Ray Allen which took a miracle jump shooting game from James in Game 6 to even have a chance to win the series in 7

A young, inexperienced OKC team with no game plan, no one to defend James at the rim (Ibaka is overrated garbage and no one, not the 7-foot 140-pound KD or 6'4 Harden could keep him from reaching it), Mike Miller,Chalmers had some miracle games and even Wade had a decent series.

Wouldn't call it a top 5 all-time playoff run, perhaps in the top 10 considering the efficiency and rebounding.

[StrengthAndHonor]

He'd be right there with Dirk, KG and Dr. J, Moses.

So

Jordan


Kareem
Magic
Tim

wilt
russell

Shaq
Bird
Olajuwon
Kobe

Moses
Lebron
Dirk
KG
Dr. J

[Rogue]

Dirk, Shaq and Kobe belong in the same class imho. Tim may be one class above if he wins ring #5 this year (though I don't believe it will happen), and of course, it's a rank concerning the career achievements rather than individual abilities. Had duncan been drafted to a shitty franchise like the cavs, he would've been sorted in the same class with the likes of C-webb, Iverson etc...

[TrainOfThought5]

hmmmm... Lebron hasnt lost to slouch teams TBH. and hes got PLENTY of career left to win trophies. especially if he goes back to Cleveland with Kyrie and that team theyre building up there.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Pls explain how Dirk is in the same class with Kobe, Shaq. And Pls don't say its because they all have 1 regular season MVP :lol

[Kobe_5_Duncan_4]

12-17ish. In the Dirk/West/Moses Malone tier.

-If Wade carries Miami through these next two games to a championship, I have Lebron knocking on the door of the top 10 (still can't ignore the fact Lebron stepped up against Indiana, while Wade had one of the worst playoff series of his career).

-If Lebron get historic on us with some 35-10-8 type efforts and wills Miami to the title, he's in the top 10 for sure. The media will probably rank him as high as 5th, but for me, he'll be in the Shaq/Bird/Duncan/Kobe/Hakeem tier.


+ 1

[AchillesHeel]

hmmmm... Lebron hasnt lost to slouch teams TBH. and hes got PLENTY of career left to win trophies. especially if he goes back to Cleveland with Kyrie and that team theyre building up there.

tbh he'll be 29 yrs old going 30 next year, let's say he loses this year, miss Finals next year and returns to Cleveland, and somehow rings with Kyrie and them boys, does he still win the fMVP? Kyrie's already putting up 23 4 and 6 in his 2nd year in the league, tbh.

[StrengthAndHonor]

He's not winning a title in Cleveland. With proper development and drafting, that young team needs a 3-5 yr window before they become contenders even with Lebron. It would be interesting to see how Lebron will handle his FA, that will determine the remaining part of his legacy. I think he stays in Miami while Pat reels another prime time talent along Lebron. This much is clear though, Bosh or Wade needs to go. The way I see it, Bosh is probably traded this offseason since Pat will pull that "loyalty" card with Wade.

[King Nupe]

If Lebron Loses, and Howard stays in LA, he will need to consider moving to LA....Howard and Dwight would be unstoppable. Along with Kobe taking a pay cut....Gasol, could also stay on a smaller contract...


PG
Kobe
Lebron
Gasol
Howard

[StrengthAndHonor]

Thats a pipe dream. Lebron aint moving to the Lakers and be Kobe's bitch. :lol I could see him going there once Kobe hangs them up, but knowing that sociopath, he'll probably pull a come back just like Jordan at age 39 just to fuck with LeBeta's mind.

[BobaFett1]

So where you fellas put Wade on the list?

[TrainOfThought5]

tbh he'll be 29 yrs old going 30 next year, let's say he loses this year, miss Finals next year and returns to Cleveland, and somehow rings with Kyrie and them boys, does he still win the fMVP? Kyrie's already putting up 23 4 and 6 in his 2nd year in the league, tbh.

Kobe has Robin'd his way to AT LEAST 3 rings and possibly 5 rings and people love to make erroneous assertions at him being top ten.

to answer your question, yes. i believe Lebron will start playin more PF and will find it easier to dominate when spoon fed easy buckets Kyrie leading to Co MVPs.

[resistanze]

Being 1-4 in the Finals isn't the issue....going 1-4 Finals is better than going 1-1. You don't get points because you got eliminated before the big dance.

That being said, LeBron's choke jobs in 2011 and this year (if it continues) pushes him out of the top 10 talk (not necessarily permanently). He'd have to win a couple of more rings as the man to get back in the top 10 discussion.

[TrainOfThought5]

He's not winning a title in Cleveland. With proper development and drafting, that young team needs a 3-5 yr window before they become contenders even with Lebron. It would be interesting to see how Lebron will handle his FA, that will determine the remaining part of his legacy. I think he stays in Miami while Pat reels another prime time talent along Lebron. This much is clear though, Bosh or Wade needs to go. The way I see it, Bosh is probably traded this offseason since Pat will pull that "loyalty" card with Wade.

Completely disagree. winning a title with cleveland would be EASY. their already building great talent around Kyrie. all they need is a bigman that plays good D and can shoot a midrange J. insert Lebron and you have an INSTANT finals favorite in the east.

[BobaFett1]

Completely disagree. winning a title with cleveland would be EASY. their already building great talent around Kyrie. all they need is a bigman that plays good D and can shoot a midrange J. insert Lebron and you have an INSTANT finals favorite in the east.

Bigmen are hard to find that are worth a shit.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Why do people think winning a title is as easy as A-B-C? You think you can just plug and play and produce a title? :lol Everyone thought Lebron, Wade and Bosh would win 3 peats easily and here they are on the verge of losing 2 of their last 3 Final trips. Kyrie is a PG, Lebron needs the ball in his hands to be effective. There's only one leather on the court.

[Richie]

Purely by virtue of his 4x MVP, he is knocking on the door of Top 10.

Presently constructed, I can see the Heat struggling in the coming years. They've been fortunate in the last 2 years with Rose being injured, if he is healthy I think the Bulls beat the Heat because of their defence/size. Pacers are also a quality ball handler away from upsetting them in a series.

He's still only 28, but I don't get this idea that it's inevitable that he'll end up with 4+ rings. However I'm sure he'll try to form another super team if in 2014 if they lose this year and next.

Except for The Decision and his 'not 2, not 3...', I actually quite like Lebron. I think he generally has a strong, selfless attitude. He's bought all this scrutiny on himself, and for that I have no sympathy.

[JoeTait75]

Winning a title with cleveland would be EASY.

Might be the first time this sentence has appeared in print, tbh. I do agree it wouldn't take 3-5 years for the Cavaliers to contend w/LeBron. I think just about any team in the NBA, outside of maybe Charlotte and Orlando, would be an instant contender w/LeBron. He's that good.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Contending is different from easily winning a title.

[JoeTait75]

Contending is different from easily winning a title.

Way different, yeah.

[TrainOfThought5]

Contending is different from easily winning a title.

true. i misspoke when i said Win. the eastern conference is still trash compared to the west. Lebron teaming up with Kyrie would ensure at LEAST 4 trips to the finals in 5 years, if healthy, imo.

[whitemamba]

yes

And ?

i was a little surprised by italy tbh, but even more surprised pirlo still tearin shit up.

[TrainOfThought5]

2nd GOAT instead of GOAT tbh

Hell win plenty after this year.

D Rose and them bulls are coming for genocide-like vengeance next year. believe that.

if the Pacers ever get a real PG they'll be formidable as well.

[dunkman]

Every finals is worth half a 'ship or at least 1/3, tbh. He needs a go to move, something that's difficult to guard. Would rate him top 15.

[Chris]

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5623/kxbx.jpg

[dbreiden83080]

Even if he wins he is nowhere close to where the media puts him. His career in the finals has been dreadful. He can come back and play great these next 2 games but he still played like trash the first 3..

[dbreiden83080]

He was awful in the 2nd half last night also...

[StrengthAndHonor]

if the Pacers ever get a real PG they'll be formidable as well.
I dont know what Pacers' idea of a PG is but if this rings true then they're not much better next season. Would love to see them make a run for a REAL PG like you said.


According to Brett Poirier, the Bucks may attempt to sign and trade Brandon Jennings to IND for Danny Granger. Unsure how to make the tweets showup on here, but this is his twitter.

https://twitter.com/BrettNBA

Im assuming for this trade to happen, Indy would agree to pay Jennings the amount they are currently paying Granger (which seems rather high to me). Who gets the better side of this deal? Is it something you could actually see happening?

[Jenks]

D Rose and them bulls are coming for genocide-like vengeance next year. believe that.

if the Pacers ever get a real PG they'll be formidable as well.
Does formidable mean getting to the finals? Because if Vogel's brain didn't completely seize up for the last 10 seconds of game 1 of the ECF they'd probably be in the finals right now. Also not sure if Granger returning makes them formidable in your eyes, either.

[irishock]

The East will eventually be better tbh... Spoelstra will find a way to lose before the Finals.

[hater]

Top 12 career-wise, #3 peak-wise(2012)..

Choking in the Finals in 2011 took him out of the Jordan convo, and choking again in 2013 eliminates him from the Kareem/Magic/Duncan(after he wins his 5th) tier, but he's still in reach of everybody else..

cosign

IMO he'll be top 10 when all said and done(but on the back-end) but he'll also carry the loser label in same fashion as historic losers like Malone, Stockton, Kidd and Eric Snow

[StrengthAndHonor]

I don't think you can brand him a loser considering he has a title and. 1FmVP to boot tbh.

[hater]

I don't think you can brand him a loser considering he has a title and. 1FmVP to boot tbh.

Lebron is way up there in the list in the biggest losers in NBA Finals histories. I want to make a thread about it, but don't want to jinx it so I'll wait till its over IMO. With another Finals defeat Lebron is only 2nd before the definition of loser Karl Malone in NBA Finals losers.

repeat, Lebron if he loses this one, he will be the #2 BIGGEST LOSER IN NBA FINALS HISTORY ONLY BEHIND THE GREATEST LOSER OF ALL TIMES (GLOAT) KARL MALONE

I have to make my calculations again, but it looks pretty bad for the Kang :lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

Lebron is way up there in the list in the biggest losers in NBA Finals histories. I want to make a thread about it, but don't want to jinx it so I'll wait till its over IMO. With another Finals defeat Lebron is only 2nd before the definition of loser Karl Malone in NBA Finals losers.

repeat, Lebron if he loses this one, he will be the #2 BIGGEST LOSER IN NBA FINALS HISTORY ONLY BEHIND THE GREATEST LOSER OF ALL TIMES (GLOAT) KARL MALONE

I have to make my calculations again, but it looks pretty bad for the Kang :lol

Well no argument there. It does look bad on his resume, this is why I can't put him in the Top 10 yet. There's still a 5 year window to redeem himself but right now I agree with you, not only does he keep dropping these series in the Finals, he also has played horrible in this stage for majority of his career.


I mean its one thing to lose but at least go out swinging. People would have more respect for him and considering he's the best player in the league, he's supposed to take ownership and lead. But, I still don't think he should be branded a loser, but of course that's just my 02 cents. :toast

[SpursDynasty]

No higher than Nick Van Exel.