The small market Spurs have...

[Marcus Bryant]

...done an end around on the prevaliling orthodoxy of American sport: that of American-born players desiring to play for large market teams and freespending owners.

As the Spurs found out in 2001 and again in 2003, having the cap flexibility to offer a max contract and the remainder of a player's career playing alongside Tim Duncan weren't enough to entice any major free agent to join the Spurs.

Granted, in the NBA the salary cap does have certain provisions designed to limit star player movement and it's certainly not as egregious as it is in other major US pro sport leagues, with the MLB being the prime example.

So what was the solution? Bring in international players who come with a different perspective and are, in my opinion, much more willing to play for a smaller market franchise. Given the Spurs' usual low draft picks, a commitment to scouting international talent was a shrewd move, one that has allowed them to build a title contender and which has thankfully reduced the dependence on American-born players dead set on playing in a top 5 media market.

-MB

[spurjur]

I guess I see it like that too. A lot of guys like the fame more than the game.

[Gummi]

Agreed. I like this trend. I don't care if we have 7 or 8 international players as long as we win or stay near the top. I also like the Argentine players because they play TEAM basketball not ME basketball. It's important for players to know their limits and role within the team and the international players seem to do that.

[Marcus Bryant]

Also, it appears that the Spurs' initial success with international talent is paying some dividends, when it comes to recruiting some of the international Spurs players' fellow countrymen.

If an Oberto was a NBA vet with 10 years of experience his price would probably have been double. And he wouldn't be in a Spurs' uniform next season.

[duncan2k5]

I think the international thing helps to build chemistry, especially in a small market because its kind of an "us against them" kinda thing. and drafting players who played on the same team is a nice help to chemistry also. only if they would have picked up raja bell:D 2 players from one small island...nice

[boutons]

There's certainly an element of "NBA vs not-NBA". ie, a foreign player dreaming of and finally breaking into the NBA (riches and home-country fame for life) will be less motivated as to which NBA team he breaks in with vs being so picky as to stay out of the NBA.

They are all looking for a chance to prove themselves on ANY NBA team, and worry about being on a winning team later. With un-"urban", small-market San Antonio, they get a shot at breaking in AND winning.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, right now the importance of being in the league outweighs the importance of which team they end up on. Also, being on a team that makes deep playoff runs often provides them with plenty of worldwide exposure.

[Russ]

To American players, SA may just be an annoying impediment (Ms. Kidd rolls eyes) to the NBA's natural order.

To international players, in little towns with hoops hanging in alleys, SA may be a basketball heaven to be dreamed of. They don't know that SA is small time or that the other cities that they see listed in the standings are somehow "big time." SA looks bigger than NY to them in the standings. They don't know any better. All they see is the winning. And with some of their compatriots.

If that legacy is created now, the effects may be felt for years or decades. The only ones who understand what they're creating may be the Spurs management. Why else does Pop get on on a plane to Slovenia or Argentina after a draining championship run.

[spurjur]

I love the fact that the NBA is expanding. The NBA is suppose to be the best basketball players in the world. Well, its barely starting to happen and the Spurs have been fortunate enough to take the best the world has to offer. I love the passion our foreign players show. We just need to get rid of the that sorry song "Ya'll Ready For This" and have them play "When Worlds Collide" by Powerman 5000 when the Spurs are introduced.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Nice job Marcus.

[Rick Von Braun]

...done an end around on the prevaliling orthodoxy of American sport: that of American-born players desiring to play for large market teams and freespending owners.

As the Spurs found out in 2001 and again in 2003, having the cap flexibility to offer a max contract and the remainder of a player's career playing alongside Tim Duncan weren't enough to entice any major free agent to join the Spurs.

Granted, in the NBA the salary cap does have certain provisions designed to limit star player movement and it's certainly not as egregious as it is in other major US pro sport leagues, with the MLB being the prime example.

So what was the solution? Bring in international players who come with a different perspective and are, in my opinion, much more willing to play for a smaller market franchise. Given the Spurs' usual low draft picks, a commitment to scouting international talent was a shrewd move, one that has allowed them to build a title contender and which has thankfully reduced the dependence on American-born players dead set on playing in a top 5 media market.

-MB Good observation. I wonder whether this was all pre-planned, or it was somehow haphazard. The '99 team was an All-American team (albeit in decline due to the players' age). Manu was a flyer in 1999, and failures to draft good american prospects afterwards (the only failures in the draft in recent times), in addition to failures to lure FAs to come to SA may have forced the decision to go international almost by default.

[Marcus Bryant]

Well, I believe I saw an interview with Holt in which he said something to the effect of "we made a conscious decision to invest in international scouting because we realized that we would be drafting low for some time."

But yeah, you can't pre-plan much beyond that. Then again, 'luck favors the prepared mind' as I believe the 3rd president of the United States once said...

[ChumpDumper]

Scrubs like Lamond Murray and Ty Nesby using the Spurs to get more money in bigger markets probably sped this along.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think the 'plan' came about due to the low draft position, but yeah, it's a nice bonus to not have to be beholden to mofos and their agents dead set on ending up in a larger market.

[jalbre6]

Hey Marcus,

I knew that quote sounded familiar, but isn't it Louis Pasteur's, "Chance favors the prepared mind?"

Of course, the Sage of Monticello could have said that too, but I was just curious.

[boutons]

http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/2195

International scouting is a bitch of a job, so I think:

"The harder I work, the luckier I get"

... fits better.

[Marcus Bryant]

I did a quick search and found "I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." attributed to TJ.

So Pasteur was likely the source for the "...prepard mind" quote.

[Gummi]

Also, don't forget guys that San Antonio, just like Orlando, has a huge Hispanic population and signing players from South America increases the popularity of the game and the team in San Antonio. Just look at Manu. He's the most recongizable player on the Spurs right know in South America and in San Antonio he's huge to. I would assume Duncan is number 1 but followed closely by Manu. Right now in Argentina, the Spurs are everyones #1 team.

Then you add another player from Argentina and you have a slam dunk.

[Guru of Nothing]

I would think one of the overriding reasons for the Spurs to go with a plan to draft foreign players was that they could play full-time and develop in Europe. I don't think the plan was all that haphazard.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes, the 'development' angle was another part of the international draft focus, but you can't plan on those draftees turning into NBA players, let alone stars.

[Russ]

I did a quick search and found "I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." attributed to TJ.

So Pasteur was likely the source for the "...prepard mind" quote.

In the sports context . . .


Luck is the residue of design.
-- Branch Rickey


Luck doesn't go looking for a stumblebum.
-- Darrell Royal

[beirmeistr]

Hey Marcus,

I knew that quote sounded familiar, but isn't it Louis Pasteur's, "Chance favors the prepared mind?"

Of course, the Sage of Monticello could have said that too, but I was just curious.
I believe it was Einstein who came up with that quote.

[beirmeistr]

Wouldn't it be something if hispanic South American basketball athletes start thinking of San Antonio as the patron saint of basketball?

[boutons]

"I believe it was Einstein who came up with that quote."

no, see the URL I posted above. It's Pasteur.

[beirmeistr]

"I believe it was Einstein who came up with that quote."

no, see the URL I posted above. It's Pasteur.
Sorry, my memory was in error.

[spurjur]

The Spurs may be the first team ever to have nothing but international players on their active roster in the next few years once Horry and Bowen are gone. Wait. I forgot about Barry and Brown. They have all these rights to players from other countries they selected in the second round and the guy they just drafted this year in the first round.

[Marcus Bryant]

The Spurs need to milk their contacts and those of their international players for all they're worth. The Oberto signing is one indication of that. The drafting of Mahinmi is another.

[TheTruth]

Maybe the foreign players are just better now. What American ctr would you have wanted the Spurs to sign? It is just a mixture of the Spurs drafting so deep into the first round, and the better bargains being foreigners.

[Marcus Bryant]

Skill and talent are not the subjects at hand. What matters is that the Spurs seem to have an easier time getting international players to want to play for them.

[TheTruth]

I agree with that, but I think it has more to do with the Spurs being able to sign players with similar athletic ability for less money. If the Spurs found an American player they wanted they would go after him just as hard as a foreigner they wanted.

A foreign free agent will always be less expensive then an NBA free agent, and that is why the Spurs dominance in foreign scouting has payed huge dividends.

[wildbill2u]

I think there's one more facet to the San Antonio story as a NBA market.

Don't forget that we've had a some very serviceable veterans who've come here to get their rings (Big Dog, Barry, Ferry, etc) before they end their career and some others who've expressed interest (SAR being the latest) even if the deal never worked out.

If we keep this winning tradition going with Duncan and company for the next few years, we'll probably see more second-tier vets attracted to the Spurs because of their organization.

[TheTruth]

I don't think the Spurs have made a consience effort to go the foreign route just because they were burned by a few free agents.

[Marcus Bryant]

It had more to do with the Spurs realizing that they were going to continue to be drafting with low picks, that the talent overseas had risen to a sufficient level of quality, and that as a small market franchise that expected to be a serious contender they needed whatever edge they could get, especially with SA not being the ideal destination for American-born players.

[Marcus Bryant]

I agree with that, but I think it has more to do with the Spurs being able to sign players with similar athletic ability for less money. If the Spurs found an American player they wanted they would go after him just as hard as a foreigner they wanted.

A foreign free agent will always be less expensive then an NBA free agent, and that is why the Spurs dominance in foreign scouting has payed huge dividends.


Sure, the cost differential is nice, but you have to first get the player to want to join your team. That's the key issue here.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's fairly clear to me that this is an instance of necessity being the mother of invention, as Marcus initially posited, compounded by the realization that early cleverness could be a solution to the need.

I hadn't made the link, but it strikes me as a fantastic observation, and it's likely a correct statement of how the Spurs have arrived at this point.

[strangeweather]

For me, the biggest thing is that the Spurs have the best track record in the NBA at foreign scouting, so naturally it makes sense to run with it.

The FO has done some solid trades (e.g. Malik for Nazr) and found some solid guys in free agency (e.g. Bowen), but I wouldn't say we're any better at either than other good front offices like Detroit, Indiana, Denver, etc.

You can win with American players, and in a way where the egos don't get in the way of the team. Go call Joe Dumars for more details. Having won a title that way, Dumars is demonstrably the best in the league in finding guys who have been through the wringer and are ready to settle down and be part of a winning team. So for Joe, when he's trying to improve his team, Option A is to look around for more guys like that, because he knows they'll probably work.

Likewise, if you're RC and Pop, you know you can win with guys like TP and Ginobili, because you already have. So the first option is to scout around for the next international guy you can bring in affordably who can take his game to the next level in the NBA. If they can find an American kid who's willing to come in and work his butt off, that's terrific. But they're probably looking first at the foreign guy, because they know they have better international scouting than other teams, and they can turn up good players more easily.

[TheTruth]

Sure, the cost differential is nice, but you have to first get the player to want to join your team. That's the key issue here.
Yup.

[TheTruth]

For me, the biggest thing is that the Spurs have the best track record in the NBA at foreign scouting, so naturally it makes sense to run with it.

The FO has done some solid trades (e.g. Malik for Nazr) and found some solid guys in free agency (e.g. Bowen), but I wouldn't say we're any better at either than other good front offices like Detroit, Indiana, Denver, etc.

You can win with American players, and in a way where the egos don't get in the way of the team. Go call Joe Dumars for more details. Having won a title that way, Dumars is demonstrably the best in the league in finding guys who have been through the wringer and are ready to settle down and be part of a winning team. So for Joe, when he's trying to improve his team, Option A is to look around for more guys like that, because he knows they'll probably work.

Likewise, if you're RC and Pop, you know you can win with guys like TP and Ginobili, because you already have. So the first option is to scout around for the next international guy you can bring in affordably who can take his game to the next level in the NBA. If they can find an American kid who's willing to come in and work his butt off, that's terrific. But they're probably looking first at the foreign guy, because they know they have better international scouting than other teams, and they can turn up good players more easily.
Great points. Gotta stick with what butters the bread.

[clubalien]

in the words of dusty
KiDD to SA ... It is a LOCK

[sickdsm]

Just wanted to point out that while san antonio is the 8th largest city in the us, its considered one of the ten ?Megatropils? in the us. Running the I-35 stretch. No only that, but if i remember right, all of them except northern california have more NBA teams that they have to support.

The only right you have to call yourself small market is either because;

1. there are 15 people that live in each house
2. No one owns a TV
3. People have better things to do.

Since you have the ability to charge whatever you want for suites, tickets, etc... and KNOW people will come, is it REALLY that small of a market?

[FromWayDowntown]

Just wanted to point out that while san antonio is the 8th largest city in the us, its considered one of the ten ?Megatropils? in the us. Running the I-35 stretch. No only that, but if i remember right, all of them except northern california have more NBA teams that they have to support.

The only right you have to call yourself small market is either because;

1. there are 15 people that live in each house
2. No one owns a TV
3. People have better things to do.

Since you have the ability to charge whatever you want for suites, tickets, etc... and KNOW people will come, is it REALLY that small of a market?

Did you drop this smack at your most recent "Flat Earth Society" meeting or something?

[ChumpDumper]

Just wanted to point out that while san antonio is the 8th largest city in the us, its considered one of the ten ?Megatropils? in the us. Running the I-35 stretch.Do you need another lesson in market size?

Give links for your tv market "research" or stfu.

[Marcus Bryant]

A far better measure of market strength, in addition to households and/or population is per capita income. I'm sure SA is under the league average for that statistic.

[sickdsm]

Pittsburgh is considered a small market for basball but the steelers are considered a large market. They were talking about that on ESPN radio in regards to Mark Cuban.

As for this:

Do you need another lesson in market size?

Give links for your tv market "research" or stfu.


Thats's basic knowledge that SA is not only among the largest cities but areas as well. It was in a AP story.

But i'm sure since apparently no one has any TV's down there they wouldn't read the papers either.

[Marcus Bryant]

The city size means very little. What really matters is the total metro size, the SA MSA is pretty small relative to NBA markets except for Salt Lake City and New Orleans.

For example, the Minneapolis-St. Paul MSA dwarfs SA, from what I recall.

[ChumpDumper]

Link the AP story.

Here's mine.

Again.

http://www.nielsenmedia.com/DMAs.html

[ChumpDumper]

Here's another:

http://www.demographia.com/db-usmet2000.htm

See a trend here?

[BigDiggyD]

I think to a certain extent in terms of television viewership you need to combine Austin with San Antonio when it comes to the Spurs. However, in terms of the endorsement money that can be made outside of your basketball contract locally and nationally the attractiveness meter goes way down in San Antonio.

[ChumpDumper]

I think to a certain extent in terms of television viewership you need to combine Austin with San Antonio when it comes to the Spurs.I think not. Only a handful of games are actually shown up here -- quite a few Maverick games make it on FSW as well. Austin is an island onto itself with UT dominating any other sports interest. After that, its pro sports loyalties are given to Dallas and Houston as much if not more than San Antonio.

If you are going to include them there, then you start doing things like including the whole state of Minnesota for the Wolves, for example. It would be tough to draw a map showing viewership that way, but Austin would definitely be split between Dallas and SA.

[sickdsm]

I see the trend is that SA gained a greater percantage of population than MPS.

Like i said, the amount of people that have a tv is pretty weak in san antonio. Outside of the metro area, what's Mps got? Towns of 2000, 600, etc.. If you go outsied of the metro area, which accoriding to the AP story i read san antonio is among the largest, your still in Spurs or wolves country even though its not "listed"

Tell me oh great one, which has a higher population? Austin or Brainerd minnesota?

[sickdsm]

weak

A town of almost three quarter of amillion is strickly Mavs territory

[BigDiggyD]

I think not. Only a handful of games are actually shown up here -- quite a few Maverick games make it on FSW as well. Austin is an island onto itself with UT dominating any other sports interest. After that, its pro sports loyalties are given to Dallas and Houston as much if not more than San Antonio.

Yeah? I admit I don't really know of how many Spurs games get aired in Austin and that UT does dominate. But in terms of my travels to Austin the second most common merchandise I find available and being worn behind UT is the Spurs.

[ChumpDumper]

Which is larger, Austin of the entire states of Minnesota and North Dakota, South Dakota and Iowa?

[Marcus Bryant]

You do realize that the Minneapolis-St. Paul MSA is about double the size of the San Antonio MSA, no? That is borne out in the TV household data linked above.

[Marcus Bryant]

From my time spent in Austin, I concur about the loyalties of the that market. Just because it is an hour away from SA, that doesn't really mean anything. Austin has a transient population with plenty of people from Dallas, Houston, California, NY and the rest of the world.

[picnroll]

sickdsm what is the ticket price for a top front row seat to a TWolves game?

[Marcus Bryant]

The other issue that hasn't really made its way into this thread are the per capital personal income and disposable income stats. I'm too lazy to do a search, but from what I recall, SA is well below the league market average in those categories and that is extremely significant when it comes to attracting advertising $.

SA's major corporate base consists of companies one can count using the digits on one hand (USAA, SBC, Valero, Clear Channel, and HEB).

[BigDiggyD]

The other issue that hasn't really made its way into this thread are the per capital personal income and disposable income stats. I'm too lazy to do a search, but from what I recall, SA is well below the league market average in those categories and that is extremely significant when it comes to attracting advertising $.

SA's major corporate base consists of companies one can count using the digits on one hand (USAA, SBC, Valero, Clear Channel, and HEB).

Agreed

[ChumpDumper]

True, you don't see any Dell, Freescale, AMD or Samsung money going to San Antonio, for example.

[Marcus Bryant]

SA has a small market, much smaller than Minn-St.Paul and I'd wager that SA's per capital income stats are significantly less than that market as well. So SA has a much less attractive media market than Minn-St.Paul, for example.

Wolves fan needs to find another angle. Quick.

[exstatic]

Here's my take, to sort of get the thread back on track. I think to the foreign players, basketball is the end. To the american players, basketball is a means to an end, the money, the bling, the shoe contract, the hip hop lifestyle. The foreign players are hungrier, MUCH more team oriented, and better able to accept coaching.

[spurster]

Which is larger, Austin of the entire states of Minnesota and North Dakota, South Dakota and Iowa?
According to the 2000 census, ND < Austin < SD in population.

[ChumpDumper]

Combine all the states, and subtract Austin fans who follow Dallas and Houston teams.

The Spurs region is south Texas and south Texas only -- and their draw in that area is blunted by Houston and Dallas. Take it from someone who has lived in San Antonio, Austin and the Rio Grande Valley.

[Guru of Nothing]

I think to the foreign players, basketball is the end. To the american players, basketball is a means to an end, the money, the bling, the shoe contract, the hip hop lifestyle. The foreign players are hungrier, MUCH more team oriented, and better able to accept coaching.

500 ft. drive to straightaway center field.

[BigDiggyD]

I for one love the injection of foreign talent in the NBA and the fact that they have recently outplayed some of the best the US has to offer. I hope that it will send a message to basketball hopefuls in the US that it does pay to learn the fundamentals of the sport and team play. That you can be successful even if you arent the most athletically gifted and that if you are gifted you can be downright fearsome if you learn to play the right way.

[smeagol]

Foreigners are the key to the overall success of the NBA. If this trends continues, basket could rival soccer for world dominance in terms of most popular sport. This is something no other American sport could ever dream of doing.

[sickdsm]

The dropoff from the Mps area is like las vegas. Nothing outside of it. Get the picture? Sure, to the east its entirely different but your in Bucks territory as soon as you cross the river.

Last i checked i still watch the wolves on tv and i'm no where NEAR the listed metro area's, still close enough to drive for the weekend though. Its a very limited base. Anything north is entirely hockey and the vikings are a season round draw. I shit you not, even during last years WCF run the day after the game its not unheard of to listen to a sports show where the coverage is equal to the wolves and the vikings draft/offseason plans. Meanwhile the "small" market Spurs have a monopoly. Did you divide your figures by four for the wolves? My main gripe is IDIOTS say "spurs are a small market team so they can't recruit FA's"

WTF? Since when do the size of the SUBURBS dictate what a FA wants? You think Odom chose Miami because they had more walmarts in Palmdale or Q chose Phoenix because there's more Home Depots?

San Antonio has a very nice winter compared to ALOT of places.
San Antonio has a very big downtown district. There isn't too many happaning clubs in the suburbs.
San Antonio residents don't have an income tax.

There is no fucking way that free agents don't want to come to san antonio bc of the size of the immediate suburbs.


Pic: I don't know off hand. I do know the best ticket i got i ended buying from a ticket broker for $145 a piece, they were $90 seats. Those mofo's ended up being at the top of the lower deck. It was a TNT game against the Mavs though two years ago. Its not very common to sell out, or at the very least it takes a while to do in the playoffs.

[sickdsm]

I agree Smeagol. Its not entirely a great thing though. You see in baseball as well as this years finals that MVP or all star starters votes come strickly for the foriegn player, from his homecountry. Thats why Yao, even if he never dominates, will always be a legitamte ASG starter.

No one ever mentions the enormous fan base the spurs have enjoyed based on having a roster of international players.

[ChumpDumper]

My main gripe is IDIOTS say "spurs are a small market team so they can't recruit FA's"Tell me this -- would you say SA is more or less attractive to an inner-city black youth than New York?

No, you wouldn't.
You think Odom chose Miami because they had more walmarts in Palmdale or Q chose Phoenix because there's more Home Depots?Elton Brand signed an offer sheet with Miami instead of SA because Nike offered him several more million dollars on his shoe contract if he played for a LARGE MARKET TEAM.

So the answer to your question is actually yes.

You're welcome.

[GoSpurs21]

CBA that does not let players move? bullshit

if this is true then please explain to me how players can be traded and say I am not going to report to the new team (like Zo or J Jackson) and then go to a contender for peanuts? The CBA is a joke and everyone knows it, until they close this loophole it will always be a joke.

[constantstate]

Tell me this -- would you say SA is more or less attractive to an inner-city black youth than New York?

No, you wouldn't.

if this was true, atlanta would have had their pick of every free agent out there. atlanta is a big market with a rich black culture, both urban and suburban. so, it must also have alot to do with the franchise, and the way its run.

and look at how badly toronto has done. going so far as to say "we picked charlie villanueva because we thought he might like to play here". i would think international players would be perfect there? (because of the culture) maybe they've just done a bad job?


To American players, SA may just be an annoying impediment (Ms. Kidd rolls eyes) to the NBA's natural order.

To international players, in little towns with hoops hanging in alleys, SA may be a basketball heaven to be dreamed of. They don't know that SA is small time or that the other cities that they see listed in the standings are somehow "big time." SA looks bigger than NY to them in the standings. They don't know any better. All they see is the winning. And with some of their compatriots.


i'm always amazed to hear tony parker and his brother say that when they were kids growing up... they'd either be "the spurs or the bulls" when playing ball, in french playgrounds. now the spurs are leading the way with how to identify and handle foreign players.

maybe that makes the spurs very attractive. seeing guys like manu and tony starting in the nba. (to young players and kids) because i doubt that markets have anything to do with it anymore.

and when american kids... black, white or with accents... start playing in american playgrounds dreaming of being manu or tony. once that transition happens, none of that "black urban culture" or "white suburban culture" thing is gonna matter. -- its up to the nba to market those guys, especially if they're winners.

[ChumpDumper]

if this was true, atlanta would have had their pick of every free agent out there.They're signing Johnson, are they not?

And obviously the franchise itself has something to do with it -- but all else being equal, which city would be preferred?

[constantstate]

They're signing Johnson, are they not?

And obviously the franchise itself has something to do with it -- but all else being equal, which city would be preferred?
they're overpaying for johnson (thank god) but they have that buttload of money to offer him, because no one else was choosing them as a destination of choice. if all things were equal, the knicks with their payroll and large market (complete with urban and suburban dream settings) would have won the last 5 championships, no?

but i do understand where you're coming from... especially from the american player's angle. i think its also got alot to do with the mainstream media coming more from the coasts than anywhere else.

[ChumpDumper]

they're overpaying for johnsonWell, if Phoenix doesn't match perhaps -- otherwise that becomes his market price.
because no one else was choosing them as a destination of choice. if all things were equal, the knicks with their payroll and large market (complete with urban and suburban dream settings) would have won the last 5 championships, no?All things are not equal -- the Knicks never have any cap space. As it is, they manage to get whom they want with some regularity through trades including sign and trades.

All things aren't equal in Atlanta either -- it's a basket case of a franchise. But then you take into account where things were relatively equal between SA and a larger market -- Brand, Kidd, Murray, Nesby, Malone -- where did these guys end up?

Whom have we ended up signing as free agents? Foreigners, older vets and marginal young guys for the most part.

It's worked out well, so I'm not complaining about it at all. The cap and good management can go a long way towards evening things out. I think it's no coincidence that some of the best run franchises are in small markets -- Spurs, Jazz, Pacers, etc., and some of the worst are in large markets where oncourt performance isn't quite as critical to the bottom line -- New York, Golden State, Atlanta.

[xcoriate]

No one ever mentions the enormous fan base the spurs have enjoyed based on having a roster of international players.

Excellent point, however dedicated a fan as I may be it doesnt change the fact that I am able to view but a few games a year legitimately through a TV and I'm sure the same holds in many other countries. The NBA is still an American league and thus most of the $$$s to be pumped into a franchise are from the US supporters as there are limits to what international fans have access to.

[constantstate]

its phoenix's fault that jj is even on the market. now they're faced with having to pay what another team values him at... because atlanta couldnt get anyone the last few years (with all that capspace) -- thats not his market price.

and you're the one that said... all else being equal. there's nothing equal about it. ny is the biggest market out there... but theres no way you can tell me that NY is this magical destination right now... players arent exactly flocking to NY to be in that situation... its a career dead end. (for the foreseeable future)

plus what im saying is its not whats happened in the past, but how things are changing (along with what the spurs are doing) i think the rest of the league is trying to catch up. including the bigger markets.

[ChumpDumper]

but theres no way you can tell me that NY is this magical destination right now... players arent exactly flocking to NY to be in that situation.Crawford did. James did. I said the Knicks are limited by their cap situation more than anything -- any of the guys they get above the midlevel have to be in trade, plain and simple. Many free agents have an interest in playing for the Knicks, the money just isn't there in most cases.
plus what im saying is its not whats happened in the past, but how things are changing (along with what the spurs are doing) i think the rest of the league is trying to catch up. including the bigger markets.Some are and some aren't. The Knicks and Mavs aren't going to change their models anytime soon, and the Spurs FA aquisition patterns are going to look more like theirs in the future because they'll be over the cap for years and limited to the exceptions just like them. It might actually slow down to a trickle as the Spurs approach the luxury tax threshold.

[constantstate]

if ny could pick and choose who they got... they picked wrong... cause they got into that mess in the first place. and speaking of that... crawford and james... the future of the knicks. its like a blackhole. (for every one good move they make a bad one)

[ChumpDumper]

if ny could pick and choose who they got... they picked wrong.And?

They have the MLE and that's it for FA signings. They certainly seemed to get their target quickly this summer.

[constantstate]

and so your point is that chicago attracted big name free agents...

what targets? james? jesus... if that was a target, they need more help than just cap relief.

[ChumpDumper]

and so your point is that chicago attracted big name free agents...If the Knicks played there, maybe. But using Chicago goes back to the management issue. Stay in that loop if you prefer.
what targets? james? jesus... if that was a target, they need more help than just cap relief.As I said, most of their bigger acquisitions are through trade since they are over the cap. Are you having trouble understanding this?

[constantstate]

If the Knicks played there, maybe. But using Chicago goes back to the management issue. Stay in that loop if you prefer.
using chicago goes back to the large market theory. 3rd largest us city. etc? ring a bell?


As I said, most of their bigger acquisitions are through trade since they are over the cap. Are you having trouble understanding this?
none whatsoever... are you saying that the knicks only recently aquired this magical power to attract anyone they wanted? because im saying thats not how they got into their capspace problem. and james isnt exactly "target" material.

what i'm saying is that the league MIGHT be changing.

"There is a greater acceptance now of foreign athletes on the American sports scene," said Don Hinchey, vice president of communications for the Denver-based Bonham Group sports and marketing firm. "The game has gone global. And Manu has an endearing quality. His personality is out there — it's transcendent. I definitely think he has that quality that translates into American acceptance and adulation."

not only breakout foreign players on small market teams... but american players willing to take less money to be in a winning situation (no matter where its at) like a SARs or even Haslem in miami who left 10 million on the table from other teams.

[ChumpDumper]

using chicago goes back to the large market theory. 3rd largest us city. etc? ring a bell?Jabba the GM. Ring a bell?
are you saying that the knicks only recently aquired this magical power to attract anyone they wanted?I'm saying they have always been more attractive to the average NBA player, all other things being equal. Is this really a surprise to you?
because im saying thats not how they got into their capspace problem.Neither am I.
and james isnt exactly "target" material.How could he not be a target when they signed him? Your opinion has nothing to do with the fact that Zeke wanted this guy.

[constantstate]

Jabba the GM. Ring a bell?
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

yeah... jerry. what an (not gonna finish that).

i kinda edited my post at the end there. my whole feeling is that people are seeing what the spurs are doing, and its kinda changing things a little more. no question ny and la and even chicago will always have more benefits... theres just more money flowing around it... but if the game really goes global, marketing will be different too... players will have more places to make more money etc.. than just at home in ny or la.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree, but depending on that international draw is a bit dicey since it's much more player-dependent; e.g., you don't see many Turks posting on this board anymore.

[ChumpDumper]

but american players willing to take less money to be in a winning situation (no matter where its at) like a SARs or even Haslem in miami who left 10 million on the table from other teams.Haslem is a good, Bruce-like example -- I would venture a guess he does have ample endorsement opportunities being from Florida as well to mitigate the difference somewhat.

SAR looks like he might settle for less, but he's at the age where winning starts to take precedence -- and he's got so much money already.

[picnroll]

When the Spurs had cap space in the Kidd fantasy year of 2003 one of the players they had strong interest in, actually went after and constructed a front loaded deal to get, was Brand. Miami ended up getting Brand to sign the same deal SA construted, which Sterling matched. The supposed factor that got Brand to sign with Miami rather than SA was that Nike offered a lucrative shoe endorsement deal if Brand signed a contract with Miami but not if he signed with SA. That pretty much defines small vs large market and who's who.

[constantstate]

SAR looks like he might settle for less, but he's at the age where winning starts to take precedence -- and he's got so much money already.
sars is also an example of a guy who can pick and choose too... even to some extent... through sign and trades that people are offering. (within portland's plans) kind of like a brent barry thing?

i think players like oberto too, who had alot of interest these past few years from the nba, wait for oportunities like the one with the spurs. if i remember correctly, he had lots of interest from other teams, but its almost like he was waiting to see if the spurs would offer him something he could live with...

[ChumpDumper]

sars is also an example of a guy who can pick and choose too.Well, it looks like the MLE is the floor and not the ceiling for him, so he's not quite looking for just the winning situation.
i think players like oberto too, who had alot of interest these past few years from the nba, wait for oportunities like the one with the spurs. if i remember correctly, he had lots of interest from other teams, but its almost like he was waiting to see if the spurs would offer him something he could live with...I would believe that if in fact it was reported. With both Barry and Oberto, Pop made his intentions known indirectly months, even years before the signings.

I think the "something he can live with" phrases is critical. Some players would join the Spurs for a song. Most wouldn't.

[constantstate]

The supposed factor that got Brand to sign with Miami rather than SA was that Nike offered a lucrative shoe endorsement deal if Brand signed a contract with Miami but not if he signed with SA. That pretty much defines small vs large market and who's who.

yeah but where brand is now... is defining how that thinking might be changing for some players? just like it took the cap time to even things up a little around the league. (its working for the most part)

now the nba better start marketing the new talent coming from overseas... because theres alot of players who live in america with accents too... or who live in the inner city and will start wearing a manu jersey cause of the way he plays. (and for a winner) etc. and around the world, more markets and more money for teams and players of teams with that new talent.

it would be interesting to see how many casual fans that know who manu is... would know who bruce bowen is if he walked the streets of argentina. lol

[constantstate]

Well, it looks like the MLE is the floor and not the ceiling for him, so he's not quite looking for just the winning situation.
i agree. i think alot of that is lip-service... but he does seem to want the right situation though, that i believe. (cause he's turned things down)

[ChumpDumper]

yeah but where brand is now.Somewhere he still has a big shoe contract.

[constantstate]

Somewhere he still has a big shoe contract.
:lol yup, theres always that.

oh... but somewhere out there hedo fans are still posting too. i can sense them. waiting for someone to question hedo's heart and how he fits in with the team. :lol

[sickdsm]

Hey chump, i love how you point to NY to try and compare. All but a couple teams are looking up at them. Why don't you compare to REAL small market teams.

[ChumpDumper]

Why would I compare small market teams to other small market teams?

We've discussed Chicago, Atlanta and Miami in the last couple of pages.

Why would I even consider anything you are saying if you continue to labor under the assumption that San Antonio is the #8 market in the US?

[Mark in Austin]

:lol